nightinthelibrary.com. i'm doing that event in case you're interested and want to join me tomorrow. that does it for us. "the reidout" with joy reid starts now. tonight on "the reidout" -- >> oh, my god. why didn't you say something? >> i mean, john's always been a little weird. >> they should give me immediately back everything that they have taken from me because it's mine. it's mine. >> a classic scene from the oscar winning film "a beautiful mind." to highlight donald trump's weird obsession with his boxes of purloined national secrets, which aides began referring to as his beautiful mind material. >> also tonight, one of the biggest ironies in all of this, how trump's own administration aggressively targeted people

under the very same espionage act that trump is complaining about being charged under. and more than three years after the murder of george floyd under the knee of a minneapolis police officer, the doj finally releases the damning findings of their investigation into the minneapolis pd. but we begin tonight with the rantings of a twice indicted former president who seems to forget that history is well chronicled and easily searched. at his bedminster golf club earlier this week where it's cited in the special counsel's indictment that he on two occasions shared classified documents with people lacking security clearances, donald trump attacked the use of the espionage act under which he's being charged. >> charming a former president of the united states under the espionage act of 1917 wasn't meant for this. an act for a crime so heinous

that only the death penalty would do. it's one of the most outrageous and vicious legal theories ever put forward in an american court of law. the espionage act has been used to go after traitors and spies and has nothing to do with a former president legally keeping his own documents. >> so let me clarify. what you just heard from trump about the espionage act is not true. and he of all people would know that because it was his very own department of justice that aggressively prosecuted cases that dealt with, you guessed it, the espionage act. some of the people his doj put behind bars for considerable prison sentences were charged as neither traitors nor spies. there is the case involving national security agency developer who in 2017 pleaded guilty to one count of willfully retaining national defense information when he regularly took classified documents home

from his office. he claimed it was to get extra work done on nights and weekends. he was not charged with spying or being a traitor, but he did get 5 1/2 years in prison. and there was a case of another nsa contractor, harold martin, who in 2019 pleaded guilty to the same count after a massive amount of classified material was found both in his house and in his car. his lawyer described him as an impulsive horder, does that sound familiar to anyone? he was not charged with spying or being a traitor. but was sentenced to nine years in prison. and there are plenty more examples just like this. but the trump doj's most aggressive prosecutions under the espionage act were for people who took classified information and leaked it to the press, specifically when those leaks were unflattering information about trump or his administration. and especially if it had to do with russia, russia, russia, and the 2016 election.

how many times did we hear trump publicly call for the prosecution of leakers? >> we're going to find the leakers. they're going to pay a big price for leaking. >> i have actually called the justice department to look into the leaks. those are criminal leaks. >> they ought to stop the leaking. >> i want the attorney general to be much tougher on the leaks from intelligence agencies. which are leaking like rarely have they ever leaked before, at a very important level. >> as heidi, professor of law at northwestern university points out in law fare, by the end of the trump administration, the justice department had criminally charged eight individuals for leaking information to the press, five of them were charged under the same provision of the espionage act. 18 usc section 793 under which trump has been 92dited. two were charged for unlawfully retaining in addition to leaking

information. the most well known case was reality winner, a government contractor who leaked information to a journalist, turns out the wrong one, in 2017, that showed evidence confirming that the kremlin had targeted and infiltrated our voting systems, counter to what donald trump was publicly saying at the time. and even though it was argued that she was acting in the public interest by sharing that information, the doj threw the book at reality winner, and she was sentenced to more than five years in prison. because when it comes to the espionage act, intent doesn't matter. and yet to this point, we still don't know why trump hoarded all those classified documents in his ballroom, in his bathroom, and in his personal office other than his claim they are his, which they are not. he hasn't made any claim he was planning to use that information to serve the u.s. public interest. and with all that historical context at our fingertips, they

make the point none of trump's supporters and sycophants will ever admit the trump administration's record of espionage prosecutors further cast doubt on trump's own indictment is a witch hunt. joining me is the professor of law at northwestern university, and jauv udali, former senior director for counterterrorism at the national security council and associate professor at the university of michigan's ford public school of public policy. thank you both for being here. before i get to you, heidi, and congrats on that great piece, i want to play bill barr agreeing with you, trump's former and very sycophantic attorney general. >> this entire thing came about because of reckless conduct of the president. if he had just turned over the documents, which i think every other person in the country would have done, they're the government's documents, they're official records, not his personal records. battle plans for an attack on

another country or defense department documents about our capabilities are in no universe donald j. trump's personal documents. if even half of it is true, then he's toast. i mean, it's a pretty -- it's a very detailed indictment, and it's very, very damning. and this idea of presenting trump as a victim here, a victim of a witch hunt, is ridiculous. >> so i think we can dipence with the idea it's a witch hunt. let's talk about the espionage act itself. let's put it on the screen. this is usc 793. whoever having authorized possession of documents, willfully transmits or attends to transmit or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the united states, sounds like what trump did. you have been very critical of the way that that act was used

under the trump administration and even before. please explain. >> yeah, absolutely. so first of all, it is very confusingly written act, but it is important to note that the act actually differentiates between tangible items like documents and what the act calls information, which is conveying information. when it comes to oral conveyances, you have this element that you quoted from where the statute says, you know, the person also needed to have some reason to believe it could be used to harm the u.s., which is still a light standard. when we're talking about documents, it's an even broader act. when we're talking about documents, the only textural requirement is that the information, the information quote relating to the national defense and that it had been willfully either conveyed or willfully retained and not returned upon being asked back. courts have added a couple of small requirements to that, one,

that it be closely held, which effectively means classified, and one that it be information that might be, quote, potentially useful to an enemy or harmful to the united states. so my concern over the years has been that that language is so broad and the classification system is widely and across the partisan spectrum seen as so bloated that it essentially criminalizes the publication and certainly the publication of information that we see in the press all the time, and certainly the transmission of information to journalists, to report them, including a lot of information we see in "the new york times" and "the washington post" all the time. now, it wasn't until recently that the act was used pretty regularly to go after media sources. it actually started in the obama

administration, but donald trump latched on to that use of the act with full force, outpacing all prior administrations in his single administration -- single term. and going after media sources for conveying information to the pres under the act, including as you pointed out, that wonderful lead-up, the famous case of reality winner. folks like terry alberry who was sentenced to more than four years, a former fbi agent who also spoke to the press about his concerns about racial profiling and certain journalistic surveillance techniques. so i have always been very concerned about the potential free speech implications of the act. as it relates to donald trump, though, as again, as the lead-up wonderfully and very clearly articulated, i certainly see no evidence in the indictment or any of the public reporting that we had an effort by trump here,

have an effort by trump here to somehow serve the public interest by conveying important information. so this seems to be a far less flattering set of facts than those that his administration prosecuted. >> and the thing is, the point of laying out those other cases like mr. fo, for instance, who was working from home, essentially, still pulled nine years, or the gentleman who was hoarding, which is identical to what trump is doing, pulled nine years. i'm sorry, mr. pho got 5 1/2 years. if donald trump is claiming he's being treated differently than anyone else would, this makes it clear he wasn't. if you put that graphic back up, the only way that we have seen a disparity in the way people are treated when they take documents is people who are way higher up the ladder, david petraeus, you know, war hero general, sandy berger, who was an nsa official, the higher up people are the

ones who get probation and a fine. right? the ones who give it back, who are way high up, like the vice president of the united states, former vice president mike pence, who give it back, aren't charged at all. if anything, donald trump is being treated far better than anyone else who has committed this crime. >> joy, great to be with you. and as heidi said, and as your piece said, yeah, there's a long history of prosecutions under the espionage act for leakers, for people who unlawfully retained information and then didn't give it back when asked. and then the classic spies, the people who actually commit espionage. this, the case with president trump, is under section 93, is very different from the other two ones i described. but the indictment sort of lays out a really strong case. and this is what i have said over the past year, that as doj was building the evidence in this case, whatever those

charges were going to be and whatever that case looked like, it had to be very strong, because to bring a weak case to court wouldn't just be the right strategy. so as attorney general barr has said and others, this seems to be a pretty damning indictment. i think it's going to be a very tough legal challenge for president trump to overcome. just based on the facts as we know them. >> and professor, it's even worse in the sense, daniel ellsberg who just died who leaked the pentagon papers, that was a famous case of someone leaking to the national media in public interest. to go to somebody not on the heroic side, a guy named jack teixeira has been indicted and accused of doing under the same statute, taking classified documents, bragging about them, putting them on a gaming server. he could be facing life. you know, that guy with the nazi tattoos. no one is going to look

favorably on any excuse anyone else gives for doing this. donald trump is trying to claim that these documents are not just you can take them, but he owns them. none of that makes sense, and he is the one whose administration prosecuted this the most. >> yes, absolutely. and in terms of your point about and the lead-up's references to trump's repeated claims that this is his information, he owns this information, they're in his beautiful boxes, that is simply not true. and the real cherry on top in terms of the absurdity of his claims that these belong to him is that he keeps citing the presidential records act. i believe i saw one commentator, i think it was daniel dale of cnn saying citing the presidential records act as a way of trump saying these records belong to me is akin to saying i was allowed to keep going when i was driving along the road because there was a stop sign. it's upside down world, the complete opposite of the truth. the whole point of the

presidential records act is that information, presidential documents, information one creates or possesses in furtherance of being president or while they're president are not the personal property of the president and certainly of the ex-president. >> and last word to you on this. given the makeup of the court we see in georgia, would you expect given these facts for this to be a case that is easy to prosecute and get a conviction? >> i mean, that will be played out over the coming month, but again, the case seems really strong. the facts seem to be more in favor of the prosecution, and president trump's legal team is going to have to come up with a really novel approach to convince the jury that that case isn't as strong as it is. and as someone who worked in the national security arena my whole career and dealt with very classified intelligence every day, i mean, again, it's

inconceivable for this stuff to have escaped the official domain at the level that president trump had, and at no point was any of that material ever officially declassified. there's a process for that, none of that happened here. so again, i think the legal case is going to be very, very difficult for him. >> oh, but his defense is going to be, it's mine. heidi and javid, thank you both very much. a quick reminder to tune in next tuesday for a special edition of "the reidout" featuring vice president kamala harris. we'll discuss america's post-roe reality and why abortion rights will define the 2024 election and beyond. next tuesday at 7:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. up next on "the reidout," dissecting trump's unhealthy obsession with america's secrets. "the reidout" continues after this.

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they should give me immediately back everything they have taken from me because it's mine. it's mine. they took it from me. in the raid, they broke into my house. >> they broke into my house. one of the weirder aspects of the whole classified documents case is donald trump's gollum like insistence the classified and top secret material he kept stored in mar-a-lago ballrooms and bathrooms don't actually belong to the u.s. government, which tay do, but instead, they belong to him. apparently, this behavior isn't particularly new for the twice impeached, twice indicted former

president. "the new york times" is reporting today trump had a, quote, unusual attachment to his boxes, so much so that the white house aides referred to all of the material he carted around with him almost everywhere during his time in office as the beautiful mind material. referring to, of course, the book and movie, depicting the life of schizophrenic mathematician john nash who covered his office with newspaper clippings believing they held a russian code he needed to crack. the times writes, the phrase had a specific connotation, the aides employed it to capture a type of organized chaos that mr. trump insists on. the collection and transportation of a blizzard of newspapers and official documents that he kept close, and that seemed to give him a sense of security. one former white house official who was granted anonymity to describe the situation said while the materials were disorganized, mr. trump would notice if someone had rifled through them or they were not arranged in a particular way. it was, the person said, how his mind worked.

joining me now is david k. johnston, founder of d.c.report.org and author of the big cheat, how donald trump fleeced america and enriched himself and his family. i don't know where to begin so i'm going to let you comment on that. this man seems obsessed with this box of disorganized material that included our national secrets. >> let's start by thinking about the movie "citizen kane" and rose bud, the slab that was taken away from the hero of the movie when he was a little boy by his cold-hearted mother and how it shaped his life. donald trump grew up in a horrible, horrible household. be glad you didn't grow up to be donald trump. he's a miserable person inside and he's an empty vessel. he tries constantly to fill the emptiness inside. money, winning, awards, shaq's shoe. mike tyson's glove. and these documents are part of

this same need and this belief, by the way, that he has like the french sun king that i am the stake, which is complete nonsense. and donald will never in his life, sadly, feel the joy, love, contentment. he'll say to every audience, we love you. but it's not a part of who he is. everything about him is transactional. these documents serve that function. they also have a second function. and that is he thought to protect and insulate him. and then when the fbi executed a search warrant, there was no raid, no busting into his house. they made an appointment, they showed up, they weren't armed. they were dressed so nobody would think they were fbi agents. when they showed up to get these documents from trump, i wrote back then that donald has no idea how to interpret national security documents, which are written in a way that requires an understanding of how they're drafted.

but what donald does know is value. and this was a place, mar-a-lago, where all sorts of people who are agents of foreign governments were showing up. when he went to bedminster, his golf course, and met with saudi officials about the saudi golf tournament was being set up, he took some of the documents up there at the time of that meeting. now, i have absolutely no evidence, let me be clear, that donald has in fact sold or attempted to sell our national secrets. but his history of behavior says we should be suspicious that that's the case. and be concerned about it, joy. >> and just to clarify this, the stuff he had was information concerning the defense and weapons capabilities of the u.s. and foreign countries, u.s. nuclear programs, potential vulnerabilities of the united states and its allies to military attack, and plans for possible retaliation in case of a foreign attack. to that, he said i don't want anybody looking through my

boxes. i really don't. i don't want you looking through my boxes, mine, mine, mine, and treated them the way he treats everything. let me play a sound mash up of the way he talks about things and people. >> look at my african american over here. look at him. >> our farmers are going to be so happy. >> i authorized my military. >> kevin mccarthy, where is kevin. there's my kevin. >> my generals and my military. >> steve, where is my steve? the bravest guy in the room, steve scalise. >> david, my kevin, my military, my farmers, my african american, and also my information about our nuclear weapons and vulnerability to military attack. explain. >> so joy, you and i and most people have a clear line between that's mine and that's yours. donald doesn't have any such line. he grew up in a household where getting the money, as long as you don't get arrested, got the money, didn't matter you cheated, lied, broke the law.

that was your measure of success. that's how you pleased daddy. and to donald, he believes, like the french sun king, that he is the government, and that's absolute nonsense in a democracy. donald, remember, claims to be the world's greatest expert on 23 subjects. one of them is a subject as you know i'm regarded worldwide as an expert on, tax policy. donald doesn't know anything about any of these subjects. he doesn't know more about isis than the generals. he doesn't know anything about nuclear weapons. the holding of these documents is tied up with the emotional horrors of his childhood and this need to hang on to things like someone who longs for their pet stuffed rabbit or doll from when they were a child. and at the same time, you know, donald knows value. whatever else you think of donald, he can look at a piece of land and say e oh, i can get value out of that building other

people don't see. those documents, oh, my. how much would foreign hostile governments pay just to get a peek at them. >> and he's also a liar and cheat, but i should note for all of you who follow that story in miami that he said food for everyone at versailles, he didn't buy anyone any food. i almost feel like we should tell this story in smeegal's fois because it's almost like the story of how he became gollum. like, i almost expect him to start saying that. david k. johnston, thank you for explaining that. coming up, the justice department shares their findings after a two-year investigation into the minneapolis police department prompted by the killing of george floyd. the damning findings are next. we're talking about cashbackin. not a game! we're talking about cashbacking. we're talking about... we're not talking about practice? no... cashbacking. word. we're talking about cashbacking.

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agreed to enter into a federal consent decree which requires reforms overseen by an independent monitor and approve bide a federal judge. joining me is charles coleman jr., who is a civil rights attorney, msnbc analyst, and host of charles coleman podcast. and charles, great to see you. key finding here, officers routinely used excessive force, disproportionately stopped black and native american people, patrolled differently based on race and in 19 police shootings a significant number were unconstitutional, even stories of police responding to people who say i can't breathe by saying you can breathe, you're talking. your thoughts? >> we have to acknowledge kristen clark and the work she's done as the head of the civil rights division at doj because progress is relative. under a different administration, we may not have even see this. now that we have gotten that out of the way, where have to be candid. when are we going to broaden the conversation and make this a

discussion around the ills in american policing? if you recall, joy, it was about a year ago that we were talking about a very similar report coming out of louisville, kentucky. if you swap these reports and you pretty much redacted the city, you would not be able to tell the difference from one city to the next. where i'm going with this is we cannot continue to treat these things as though they're discreet occurrences occurring in just different pockets of america. this is much more representative of a systemic issue within american policing that has to be addressed on a culture and a policy level. and until we broaden that conversation and make this discussion more meaningful and get to the root of this, we're going to continue to watch the same movie over and over again. >> yeah, i mean, look at the number of cities that are already under consent decree, louisville, baltimore, chicago, cleveland, ferguson, still under one, albuquerque, seattle, i mean, the thing is, we now have, and i'm glad you acknowledged kristen clark, under the

trump -- his first attorney general, jeff sessions, they stopped doing consent decrees. they said we're not going to do it at all. the fact they're doing it at all is important, but what does it mean in your view that we're still doing these individual responses as you said, but we can't pass a george floyd act to hit that national conversation you're talking about? >> i think it's part of -- part of it is how we're socialized to look at police. a lot of it has to do with the idea it is very difficult for us to accept the notion that american policing is rooted in a system and a model of violence and aggression rather than that of service and protection. because of everything we're told about police, everything we're taught to police about police, but the reality is that different communities and different people in america, specifically black people, marginalized people, people who are pushed outside of the center of america, are oftentimes experiencing policing in a very, very different way, and that's a reality that we have to actually come to grips with. i'm of the belief, joy, that

going into '24, into this election cycle, anyone who purports to care about these communities where people have to commit themselves to reviving police reform. that has to be -- >> let's quickly talk about the tree of life mass shooting, the sentencing phase has begun. there was a guilty verdict in that case. fascinating argument by the public defender for the shooter, trying to get out frankly of the death penalty by saying he wasn't killing jews because of religion but rather because, quote, he believed they were bringing in immigrants who were committing genocide against white people and children. none of this makes sense, none of this true, but this is what he believed to be real and true. basically saying he's an out of his mind racist, not anti-jewish to try to stay alive. 11 people were murdered. 11 counts of obstructing the exercise of religious beliefs. >> yeah, i think it's -- there's

such a thing as creative lawyering and then i think some things that are border line ethically irresponsible. i realize you have an obligation as an attorney to mount as vigorous a defense for your client as you can, but to sort of play this game when you're talking about why your client did such a heinous thing that he's now been convicted of at the expense of adding more pain and discomfort to the families that have been affected i find to be reprehensible. from the standpoint of being an attorney and understanding there are difficult times that you have to construct arguments on behalf of your clients, but this is not the way to go. >> yeah, somebody who opposes the death penalty, can find it morally repugnant that somebody has to make an argument to keep the state from killing someone, a wild argument like that. that's just my personal opinion. thank you very much. >> still ahead, president biden attends a big gun safety summit in connecticut amid increasing calls for him to say something, anything, about trump's latest indictment. we'll be right back. if you're la medicare supplement

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fees, part of the plan he announced in the state of the union to address banning junk fees. tomorrow, he will host his first political rally with union members in philadelphia. here in washington, democratic senate aides and donors are telling nbc news that despite all that, they're worried that biden's silence on trump's most recent indictment is leaving a vacuum, one aide said democrats should not be waiting until the general election to start defining this. another democratic strategist who requested anonymity said, democrats shouldn't focus solely on an economic message, arguing it is short sighted to forefit the opportunity to showcase legal's peril even when voters say they care the most about kitchen table issues. if you need a reminder being the nice guy who plays by the book doesn't work on republicans, maga republican congressman greg steube told fox business he thinks house republicans will move forward with impeaching president biden by this fall for, i don't know, who knows what, the ray-bans being related

to hunter, drone bombs, logging their kids in slaughterhouses to work, who knows. joining me now is presidential historian douglas brinkley, professor of history at rice university, and michael steele, former rnc chair, msnbc analyst, and host of the michael steele podcast. when i get in these situations i like to ask wwrd, what would a republican do? because republicans are good at countermessaging and strategy. so michael, if you had a democratic president twice indicted, liable for sexual abuse, and facing 37 counts in florida, do you think that democrats -- that you would counsel republicans to speak about it or to stay silent like biden is doing? >> they would be blowing that up every day, 24/7, every which way you could flip it, whip it, and slap it down. >> flip it, whip it, and slap it down. >> absolutely, they would. you know they would. but here's the deal.

democrats seem to understand joe biden, president joe biden does not need to speak on this. all the rest of you democrats should be out here making the noise. let the man stay above the fray. let the man be president. he doesn't need to get in the mosh pit with donald trump. let him do his thing. all these anonymous consultants who are upset they aren't running ads right now because they ain't making any moolah on it, you get together in a room, get your little ad campaign together. and like i said, whip it, flip it, smack it down 24/7. but leave joe biden out of it. he does not need to comment on the former president's legal woes. he just doesn't. that's what the dnc is for. >> don't know if you can beat whip it, flip it, smack it down, douglas, and i will not ask you to try. it's friday today, but history

is here to help, as the great rachel maddow says. when, you know, nixon had his travails, did democrats talk about it? were they quiet about it? did they stay above the fray? >> i think it's just different because we're now dealing with -- i agree with what michael said completely. this is a justice department, merrick garland is biden's attorney general, and donald trump's going to have to face the fiddler in a court of law, it looks like. i don't think biden wants to come into that ham fisted. it will only allow an echo, you know, chamber kind of effect on the republicans that this is all about politics. i don't believe it is about politics. i think merrick garland is doing the right thing. i think donald trump should have been indicted. i think he took these documents, wouldn't give them back, and he's facing his comeuppance. but biden needs to keep a moat between himself and the justice department on trump at this

juncture. now, look, we're a long ways away from the election. there may be a circumstance where he's going to have to come forward and talk about it, but not now, not when things are in transition. we don't even have the details of timing pinned down. >> yeah. and meanwhile, michael, you know, asa hutchinson raised the idea that maybe we shouldn't have this loyalty pledge anymore if this guy is going to be maybe behind bars while he's getting the nomination, and the rnc said nah, man, you have to be loyal to him even if he's locked up. >> they have to have a loyalty pledge because if they don't, they have no base to show up in november, and if they do, they'll run against the incumbents that got rid of the loyalty pledge. you see their conundrum. asa is absolutely right. loyalty pledges are stupid. they are very, very, how shall we say, they're worse than school yard.

even on the playground, we didn't come up with that kind of crazy. in the middle of the fight, people are going to switch sides, do what's in their best interest, someone is going to sign the loyalty pledge and they're not going to get the nomination, and then they're going to be sitting there going, i just can't support trump. then what's the party going to do? they set up this straw dog argument that will fall flat on its face and to the extent everyone holds true to it, now you have saddled them going forward in any future contest they want to get into with this particular weight around their ankle. so asa has it right. the party has it wrong here. i have never been a fan of these types of tactics because in the end, they just don't work. >> yeah. meanwhile, the 2024 election is getting more and more complicated. there's a group called no labels which has a very strange sort of collection of people, joe lieberman, nancy jacobson, larry hogan, the former governor of maryland, ben chavs, former naacp leader, john o'brien, who

are threatening to launch a third party campaign. and doug, their criteria for not doing it is if biden has a wide lead. which seems like that doesn't make any sense. you're saying if it's close, you're going guarantee the potentially donald trump gets elected? this seems backwards and on to me. your thoughts. >> i agree. no labels to me, is people who want tv time and this to get in the mix. meaning they're not embedded with the republicans or the democrats so they're going to make some noise and rumbles. i think they just stay out of it. i always have enjoyed third parties efforts if they can be constructive. but we look at so many of them that have been damaging, -- in 68, i'm not sure ross perot helped anything in 92. i don't think stein helped

anything with nature when they ran. if you want to go after things in a third-party way you need to mean business. it's a lot of noise. this is right now a battle between trump and or desantis or another candidate if trump's legal woes get. him and joe biden. and there's no labels to get out of the game. >> it's not just them. it's also cornell west saying he's going to get in essentially -- there's an argument that jill stein might have made a difference. when michigan and wisconsin the votes she got are more than on trump's margin and that's where some are having heartburn about this, and you throw in this new version of joel stein, which is cornell west, it's weird. >> it is, and the problem with the no labels narrative is tell me what states yuan. if biden is not way ahead, then

tell me what state you when. because if you can't tell me what state you win then why are you running? is it new hampshire? is it california? which state does no labels when, regardless of where biden is on the board. that's a problem a lot of folks have. wouldn't >> let me quickly play what a lot of people are thinking might be a preview to 2028. if we don't know it is going to do but a lot of people pining after this person running for president one day. here's gamma newsom doing some work on fox. >> we can handle all of this. i'm a border state. rhonda santos is not. i know he's desperate to get in on the action. but the belly flop. donald trump is going to clean his. clock >> joe -- biden >> desantis will belly flop. >> i don't have a crystal ball. >> this is a stunt. it's embarrassing. it's pathetic. >> let me give you each a quick 30 seconds out of this starting with you michael steele the idea that the democrats don't

have a band is a line by that guy. >> they do have eventually. have a number of folks they can turn to beginning in 28, and they will. gavin newsom is trying to put his bona fides and street cred in play now. get out there, take on someone like a desantis in this race that sets up a possible gavin desantis battle in 28. it's smart politics. regardless how you feel about the governor. it's just smart politics to do what he's doing. you see some of that on the republican side as well. >> douglas brinkley, with the other person out there is kamala harris, sitting vice president and also ready to play that game. we don't know if she's gonna do. but she could jump. and >> i think she probably would and gavin newsom would, gretchen wilmar whitmer is popular. new vanity fair and say i recommend people read. they have a great bench in the democrat party, but the bottom line is the party discipline

democrats and it's about lining up behind biden harris right. now >> that is what they're gonna do do. i don't care what desantis in anywhere says. doug and michael are gonna stick around because guess what? they're gonna give us their picks for who won the week, right after this break. right after this break i'm saving with liberty mutual, mom. they customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. you could save $700 dollars just by switching. ooooh, let me put a reminder on my phone. on the top of the pile! oh. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ detect this: living with hiv, i learned i can stay undetectable

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the end of another week, which means it's time to play our weekly game. black with me, douglas brinkley, and michael steele, you are the

veteran in this game, michael. who won the? week >> the effort brought on behalf of music producers and writers and songwriters across the country, the national music publishing associations up to 250 million dollar lawsuit on twitter for copyright infringement other artists and musicians that we all take for granted when we put that tweet out there. >> oh, i love that. it's powerful. okay douglas brinkley, who won the week? >> i'd go with joe biden because of what happened to donald trump his chief opponent, it looks like he may be being charged with jail time for felonies, what a big boost. all biden has to run on is i'm not donald trump. most impressively today in his speech and west hartford connecticut talking about we need to do a more to stop these mass shootings. we've had 26 heinous mass shooting in 2023. so biden's top i thought was

exceptional today. >> my answer for that that is an accident point, but my answer for who won the week was two words, baby. jack smith. watch him work. that's all i'm saying. he's got a subway sandwich bag, i mean look on his face, and he's ready to rumble. he's going to bring it in florida. douglas brinkley, he looked me in but we need mean sometimes. douglas brinkley and michael steele, have a nice weekend. that's tonight's read out. all in with chris hayes starts right now. s hayes starts right now.>> tonight on all in. >> i've been indicted twice now in a couple of months. >> the doj seeks a protective order on trump. >> what's indictment mean? sure that's when your extremely dishonest sir. >> as front runners parting demands a loyalty pledge even for convicted felons. >> anybody getting on the