or worse. >> detective says there were no winners in this case. he was only following evidence, he says, that led to a very sad conclusion about mark wangler. >> i think there is a lot of rage. although he wanted to live right where he wanted to have a good marriage, i think he couldn't. so -- >> you think he didn't see a way out? >> i don't think you saw a way out. >> that's all for this edition of dateline. i'm andrea canning. thanks for watching. ks for watching. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> welcome to morning joe weekend. it was an historic week for the country, as we follow the second indictment of former president trump.

let's take a look at the week's top stories. >> as you know, i can't talk about particulars of this or any other ongoing criminal manner. as i said when i appointed mr. smith i did so because it underscored the justice department's commitment to an oath independents and accountability. mr. smith is a veteran career prosecutor. he has assembled a group i've experienced and talented prosecutors. and agents, whose share his commitment to integrity and the rule of law. any questions about this matter will have to be answered by their filings in the court. >> attorney general, merrick garland, with some breathe where it's for the first time since donald trump's federal indictment. >> is it just may or willie are we starting to see again. not a complete breaking of ice.

but a more thawing of ice? >> this is horrible. it's bad, but i'm gonna pardon him. day three, too early to talk about pardons. because you know the news came out. i'm sure mike pence saw the new jersey nightmare. the possibility of andrew weissmann talking about him. the worst crimes actually committed war in bedminster. so that she still may drop because that is disseminating. so everybody else maybe freaked out about a judge that only has 14 days of experience. who again humiliated herself for donald trump. i do not think that jack smith is too worried. i don't think he's that worried because he still has the most serious charges possibly in the new jersey federal court. >> andrew weissmann is going to join us in a little while to talk us through this. but that is the idea that is out there. that possibly they maybe have some concerns about judge cannon this could go to new jersey.

where as you say, a lot of this stuff took place. in bedminster, donald trump's club up there. but you're right mike pence yesterday, he said that it is too early to prejudge. >> he was pressed. >> i'm not talking about pardons i'm not talking about anything else. donald trump gets his day in court. and it looks like, joe biden's family maybe gets their day in court. nobody judges thinks. we heard from merrick garland, it's become so disoriented in the last eight years or so. this is what is supposed to be like. and they say this is not political eye, appointed as special counsel he is handling it it. >> it's not asking too much it's not asking too much to just say. donald trump. innocent until proven guilty, he will get his day in court, let's see what happens. >> joe, hunter biden? innocent until proven guilty. let's see what happens. let's let all of this play out in court? >> absolutely that is the correct way you would think that they would try to proceed.

and given the gravity of the charges, you are running for president, you don't minimize it. we are talking about espionage, we're talking about secrets that could've jeopardize the security of the country. and members of the military. so, the way that they first came out of the gate on this, showed anything less, a lot less than what you would expect of one that wants to be a the commander in chief of the country. and now i think they're correct, because it is very clear that another shoe may drop in new jersey. and i think that they do not want it to drop on their head. on the birthday boy. >> so also witness this host of way too early, white house chief politico, jonathan lemire. and former white house press secretary, and msnbc see host, jennifer psaki. and former u.s. attorney joyce vance, she's an msnbc legal analyst, and congressional investigations reporter for the washington post.

jackie alemany me joins us as well. and jacqui, this one, this one actually tells you everything you need to know about former president donald trump? the jake is just never up. it is just never up. >> really, well, he should've listened to candy. >> you have no one to hold him. >> no one to walk away, no went to run. that's right. all right i'm [inaudible] and the washington post, it reveals one of former president trump's attorneys proposed last fall, that trump's team could try to negotiate a settlement with the justice department. and that classified documents case. but the paper reports that trump was having none of it. attorney christopher cause, reportedly wanted to approach the doj to see if he could arrange a settlement that would avoid charges, and include the return of all documents. but the former president was

not interested in listening to the plan. so he never approached prosecutors. that is according to three people briefed on the matter. they say that trump instead, took the advice of tom fitton, the head of a conservative group, judicial watch. and others who told him that he could legally keep the documents. and should fight the doj. jacqui, this is again donald trump and his boxes, that he doesn't want anyone else to have. is it possible that the doj would have considered such a deal. >> that is a very good question mika brzezinski, even though it was from christopher case, the attorney who appeared with donald trump this week. who was shortly sidelined after this proposal was made. and after he felt out some players about potentially reaching out to the department of justice. but it seems unlikely after the justice department would have

agreed to even issue a, coming to some sort of agreement with trump's team. especially, even with that timeshare, they already knew that the former president was in possession of classified materials, that were highly classified, top secret, and contained things like the nuclear codes, and again highly sensitive top secret documents related to the military. but as we reported, the former president was never interested in taking a deal, he has always claim that these were his papers, that all the documents contained news clippings, just papers that he had picked up along the way obviously we have seen that not to be true as over 100 classified documents ultimately were outstanding when the justice department executed their search warrants but the president does continue to take tom fitton's advice. he was at a dinner with trump

before his arraignment. they had stakes at blt prime at the real miami on monday night. we did speak with fitton for this piece, who did not confirm or deny that he provided the former president with legal advice. but did say that he does speak with trump quite often, and does provide him with advice. generally speaking. and referenced this clintons stocks case. 2009 reference to these tapes that teller branch had of bill clinton. that really had nothing to do with classified documents. clinton. that r>> you know, willie geists is a thing where donald trump has spent the last 50 years playing the tabloid, pushing out from the new york post. the daily notice, all this other stuff, insulting pundits, insulting rosie o'donnell. and it's always going to swirl forward he always days five minutes ahead of the creditors, five minutes ahead of the

judges. but again, there is no better evidence that he doesn't i think maybe he does now. but he did not understand what he was stepping into. what arena he was stepping into. right? this is a gladiator without, you know, a really good gladiator. i mean, he is in the ring and this is, again, literally, his life. possibly behind bars. and he is talking to some yahoo. who again, people in the fevered swamps are no less than doing. but he is talking to the sky for advice. about, is he going to stay in jail with him for the rest of his life if he gets charged? no, he is going to be typing and going on to the next sucker. again, his options, you look at jersey. his options are running out. i mean, it seems to me that a

plea deal, the fed won't even plead with him at this point. the judge won't let him plead this moment, i don't think it well. >> it's always against donald, trump for 40 years, it's been a game. who is up, who is down. we have lived through it. he goes after you, and he patio on the bat. i was tough on, you you are tough on, me that's it. jack smith does not take the path on the back. this is deadly serious, and this could be a prison sentence for donald trump. joe mentioned the new piece from andrew weissmann, bryan goodman, legal analyst and frequent guest on our show. saying that the former president could face additional charges on the classified documents case in new jersey. described in the atlantic, how trump took classified records from mar-a-lago to bedminster, new jersey. where he showed the contents other people. andrew and ryan right quote, the legal uncertainties that surround around bringing charges in florida for national security secrets in bedminster. leaves open the possibility

that charges might be brought in new jersey a backup plan of sorts for smith. can, and the judge assigned to this case would seek to veto the charges before her, by, say scheduling the trial until after the 2024 special election. the special counsel would preside with a tactic, by proceeding with charges in new jersey. in fact, the miami indictment conspicuously excludes many actions around trump in bedminster. what boxes were taken there where they were contained. how they were kept at the golf club. the silent suggest there might be more to come from the famously hard charging smith and his team of prosecutors who put together an otherwise highly detailed 49-page indictment. joyce vance, a new twist here put forward by andrew weissmann, and bryan goodman, what do you think of that idea? >> well ten days ago we weren't really talking about an indictment in florida. that makes it clear to us that jack smith is very capable of staying quite quiet about what

his next plans are. and something that struck many of us, the minute that we read this indictment, was that they seem to walk right up to the precipice what these bedminster allegations. there are two instances where the former president appears to have shown classified material to other people. it is not entirely clear that he actually had the documents with him, and so, there is some factual needles that would need to be threaded here. but it was very interesting that they did not do anything additional with those allegations. and that is what led to the speculation that there could be an additional case. in their, in new jersey. lots of issues to be resolved if there are cases like that, there might be some possibility that the former president could try to consolidate them, and face trial only in florida. but this is a very intriguing piece, that ryan has written along with andrew, and it suggests that the doj is not out of moves here. >> after the break, much more

of our coverage of the indictment and arraignment of the former president, donald trump. trump. j.p. morgan wealth management knows it's easy to get lost in investment research. get help with j.p morgan personal advisors. hey, david! ready to get started? work with advisors who create a plan with you, and help you find the right investments. so great getting to know you, let's take a look at your new investment plan. ok, great! this should have you moving in the right direction. thanks jen. get ongoing advice; and manage your investments in the chase mobile app. as someone living with type 2 diabetes, i want to keep it real and talk about some risks. with type 2 diabetes you have up to 4 times greater risk of stroke, heart attack, or death. even at your a1c goal, you're still at risk ...which if ignored could bring you here... ...may put you in one of those... ...or even worse. too much? that's the point. get real about your risks and do something about it.

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nbc news legal analyst, andrew weissmann he's a little tired. do you ever sleep? sir? >> no he does not. >> i do every now and then. >> i think it might be loopy. but he has some interesting things to bring to the table today. even though he is sleep deprived. and former federal prosecutor and coach he is the contributing writer for new york magazine. and political michael c. in. michael you're part of a reporting that is looking at judge aileen cannon. that is the judge who will preside over former president trump's classified documents case and apparently she has little experience running credit on all cases and may not

be ready for a potential trial with a former president. according to the paper, and canons over two-year tenure just four of the 224 cases that judge has been assigned. have gone to trial. those cases resulted in just 14 days of her sitting as a judge in a trial. lawyers who have appeared before a cannon, described her as quote, generally competent and straightforward. as well as quote, someone who does not otherwise have a reputation of being unusually sympathetic to developments. defendants. however, they quote, he she is demonstrable and experienced. and she is -- when her actions are questioner, unexpected issues arrive. [inaudible] >> they basically said, congratulations, your ruling has undermined the foundation of american constitutional law. so you take that with the fact that some judges have lifetimes

of experience, she has about a lunchtime worth of experience, and she is about to hear, unless somebody interviews, she is about to hear the most important criminal case, in u.s. history. >> and a complicated one. that involves classified information as evidence, attorney client privilege, evidence that came from lawyers about their own client. you would have to be able to pick a jury of unbiased jurors. about someone like donald trump who is probably the most polarizing figure. certainly in my lifetime. so it is an enormous challenge that she faced, and we did this thing with the times research department, where we went and found all 224 of the criminal matters that have appeared before her. and we went through on the online docket to see which ones went to charles. and the research department at the time said they did this

tremendous job and working together we were able to find these for cases. and in the four cases we were able to figure out how many days those trials went. so if i remembered correctly. one trial was five days, a few two or three, or four. and it added up to the small numbers of about two weeks of trial experience. luck federal prosecutors and lawyers will tell you also it's of things. the law and everything. but they say at a very basic level, experience is really, really important. especially if you are -- >> i understand, they say this was assigned randomly. but in my experience, this is very limited experience. there would be a discussion. and if a federal judge or even a state court judge got a really complex case. if they just want qualified to handle, there would be a

discussion, and, the judge would say, you know what? for now this is above my pay grade. this is too complex, let's move it to another division. i am just curious. again. just forget her disastrous role when she was humiliated. forget i'm shocked, this continues to move forward and she is not recusing herself, because she is woefully in equipped to do this. and i would say the most aggressive criminal judge ever, if they only had 14 days of trial work. but she's woefully in equipped to handle these kinds of issues. so is there no intervening? is there no way that that circuit doesn't step forward. saying, let's get somebody that can actually can handle this? >> so, the justice department can ask for this to happen. but in that case, he would

really be antagonizing the judge, especially if the judge is not going to be removed, so imagine if jack smith where to say, hey, we think you need to recuse yourself, we think you need to step aside. that would be a big difference to the judge, and if the judge stays than the government is already fighting an up hill battle in front of that judge. they had to have known if they brought the case in florida, that this was an issue that was going to come of it. and i'm sure that that folks would say, they had to bring it in florida, that's where the crimes happened. nevertheless, it is a huge wildcard, i just think that in terms of the entire matter, it is a humongous deal. but this judge got it. and the clerk has said that they followed their normal procedures. >> maybe in the most important case. and in u.s. history, maybe they just don't follow the normal

procedure. say around the table and talk about it, and this is mostly important. judge, without due respect, you've only had 14 days of trial, are you qualified to do this? >> the ruling that she had, in which you are referencing, this circuit court really embarrassed her in many ways. the judicial branch. >> 14 days. i said hours, i meant 14 days. >> the judicial branch, i think drowned in the face of trump, and has largely, i would say most people would say held up pretty well compared to the other branches of government. and this will be a test of the entire judicial branch, and in a way that this could be the most high-profile case in american history, like this is a huge deal. >> so andrew weissmann, is there any chance that there is a change here. you can see how this plays out if a trump friendly judge, in

and aileen cannon is moved off the case. you can see the cries in the judge, and the people and round him. that the six is in. how do you see this playing out? will it be okay for judge aileen cannon? >> so far, that's exactly what the signs are. those are the cases where she could remove herself, but there are a couple of things that could happen. we could see the justice department move to recuse her. she says no to seek to go to the court of appeals. the other thing that they could do which i think is probably more likely, is wait for her first erroneous ruling. and given that, as you referred to, she's had two decisions that have been reversed in scathing opinions by a conservative 11 circuit court, including by the way, judges who are appointed by donald trump. so they do their duty, and they reversed her saying that what she did was hypocritical to the rule of law.

they could wait for her to make another misstep, appeal that, and in that appeal asked that it be reassigned to a different judge. that is a route, that while it's not comment, does occur. and that would be the third time that she was reversed, not just in any case. but in this very investigation. >> coming up, what mike pence had to say about trump and hillary clinton. hillary clinton. move it ♪ ♪ you like to... move it ♪ we're reinventing our network. ♪ ♪ ♪ fast. reliable. perfectly orchestrated. the united states postal service. with the freestyle libre 2 system, know your glucose level and where it's headed. no fingersticks needed.

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with marinated chicken and double cheese. sweet and savory... ...kinda like you and me, chuck. bye, peyton. try the refreshed favorites at subway today. >> first let me just say, it's a core american principle of our justice system, that every american is entitled to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. it's also a core principle that no one is above the law, and i have had the opportunity to read the indictment that was filed. i can't defend what's alleged. these are serious allegations. and the handling of classified materials, as i learned in my years as vice president in my years on the foreign affairs committee, is a very serious matter that bears upon the national security of the united

states. and i share the concern of millions of americans about the way politics has played a hand whether it be when hillary clinton was exonerated in 2016, for essentially engaging in exactly the kind of behavior that the president trump is accused of here. >> not exactly -- >> why is he lying? i thought he was a very kind of measured, religious, good man. >> you're being sarcastic. >> you're lying. >> -- where they will tell the truth, right? >> then they won't. >> because they can come back and say later, when it really goes south -- i said, this was a very serious allegation. and then, they play to the two seats. with the lie. and say, well this is exactly what hillary clinton did in 2016. and how there weren't two systems of justice. you actually had hillary

clinton, not only exonerated by the obama administration and james comey, but also exonerated, de facto exoneration by the trump administration. because donald trump in 2017 pushing for a special counsel, and it came back and said, there's just nothing here. 2018, pushing for a special counsel. they came, back there's just nothing here mister president. you have nothing. and he didn't push it, because he realized, that hillary, as we've seen from horowitz's investigation, that hillary didn't do anything white the guy stealing nuclear secrets is doing. joe you see the, i had to say this, the enduring power of that donald trump has over the republican dominated elector. ever trying to take him down. they understand, they see trump saying those things, the way trump has done this, which is the deep state, they're out to

get me. there's these two thanks of justice, i'm innocent democrats, communists, marxist go free, i get persecuted, and they see it is work for him. he continues to be, you know, the front runner in the republican nomination contest by a long way. and he has built a foundation of real power, the republican base, by playing that song. and if you're mike pence, sitting at 6%, or 8%, or 10% of the republican nomination polls, you make it i kind of laid, halfhearted effort to go there, and to attach yourself. while distancing yourself from trump on one hand, you attach yourself to his juju. you know, it doesn't work, this is why mike pence at this moment is not a serious challenger to donald trump. because you can't do that on the one hand. on the other hand you're thinking in today's welcome party. that's what you see there. all these people recognizing that they want to have it both ways for their own politics they also if your bike pants also somehow figure out how do

i get into that. >> it's like governor haley saying, what she said was the right thing to say, if you actually care about national security. and then saying, well yes, i barred him. with that, you could make the argument, that's what gerald ford did. that's what he -- that for me, i can deal with that. running in, you know, running in a republican primary. okay say it's a crime, said he should be convicted, and then if you want to play to the -- talking about pardon, that's at least, it has precedent. it's not a lie, saying, oh he did the same thing as hillary clinton, joe biden. >> nikki haley said yesterday, after a long answer, we have it here, she said i'm inclined to pardon, rafter long answer where she was critical of donald trump. here's what she said. >> what's happening is unfortunate. i think the justice department has handled this whole thing terribly. i mean you can't have one

standard for democrats like hillary clinton and joe biden, and another standard for republicans like donald trump. we're seeing that again. we're seeing that with biden bribery recordings. i mean the country should never stand for that. i think that we should all wake up, we have to be a lot about that. having said that, if the claims in the indictment are true, if they are true, and trump was incredibly reckless with our national security. and that is it okay. so now, you have the question of a pardon, i mean, that's a very different question. i'm not presuming president trump's guilt, i think we all need to let this trial play out. we need to see exactly what happened. what you know, when you look at a pardon, the issue is less about guilt, and more about what is good for the country. and i think it would be terrible for the country to have a former president in prison for years because of the documents case. that is something you see in the third world country. i would be inclined in favor of a pardon. >> half of what she said, just

as a law. the other half though, she has the other half. so again, when it goes sideways, and even more evidence comes out -- she'd say i was saying this is dangerous. >> again, drop a little, i mean cry klein to pardon. mention biden bribery. >> yes, the crime barge. >> -- [inaudible] >> that's a translation. that's a nice translation. >> not the original greek. but you sort through what you can. >> next, power corrupts, but maybe only four men. katty kay and claire shipment on their new book about women who lead. that is after a short break. them after a short break. them

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table by veteran journalist claire shipman. she and katty kay are out with a new book entitled the power code. more joy, less ego, maximum impact for women and everyone. i want to back into this, because there is actually a connection here. the theme of the book, we'll get to it in a moment, but you have some incredible findings, and i am jumping down to number three. power seems to corrupt men more than women. you found that researchers

discovered this. why? >> you know that phrase power corrupts absolutely. the chants of women, that may not be true. women who rise to the top of their organizations managed to maintain empathy for people. women in leadership, up to 18% less likely to be charged with corruption than men in leadership. so the more women we get power to, perhaps less corruption will have around. >> the overall point of the book claire, which i love about redefining power. give us a sense of that theme here. >> essentially what we found is that men and women view power quite differently, men tend to view power as a hierarchical, more ego filled -- and this is been a term sociologist have used for a long time, largely man, when we started looking at the, search to power conducted by any female academics, we found we saw women think of power as power to. there is a wide implicit in the way that we think of power. so why do we want this?

what do we want to get done? and we're arguing that broadening this definition is going to make power a lot more appealing for women, and actually a lot healthier. >> murray, to finding it, other things you found, and this is interesting, because it matches a lot of the work i'm doing, most women still don't want power. >> we are not there yet. only 10% of ceos are women. 27 out of 200 world leaders are women. started off. >> do you not expect that to change radically? look at the crisis of young men in america. the fact i think 60% of graduates now from college are women? i tell my daughter all the time, it's just a matter of time, in your time, we're gonna have real, most likely among ceos -- >> you think so. but it's not happening fast enough. we've kind of stalled at the top. those have been the figures for the last few years. we've been better educated than men for a while. which is that we want to address this issue of what's happening with power, and then

we found this research from harvard which shows that however you look at power, women don't really want to. we find the cost of getting it to high, and that actually power itself is this zero sum game nature power. more free means less for me. the hierarchical dominance nature of power, women just don't find it appealing. so we kind of turned the proposition on, instant medium -- we lead well, we're educated, we have all the right qualifications. what we need to do is change the way the power works in organizations. and that would be better for everybody. >> that gets that one of your points claire, which is that men and women defied power. -- >> i need to fight for that. when just look at it differently, don't they? >> that's part of what we found to joe's point to. we would've thought there be more women at the top, but women opt out, what we found is part of the clash, the supply and demand program is women use it differently. we're almost other, you start

to reach the upper levels, we don't ever get to the top. because we're opting out as not enough. what we're saying actually, a big part of our book is about man. because manner kind of stuck in a pretty narrow lane. i was just talking to my son about this last night, there's sort of a sense, even when we talk to who are doing things differently, try to do things, try to stay at home, be the primary caregiver, they say, i feel like a failure, i felt the one thing in life i was supposed to do. which is be the primary breadwinner. and until then, still men could be viewed by society is having a broader set of possibilities, it's hard for us to redefine imbalance. >> so men are stuck in a box they don't want to be in, also, and finally caddie women will never get power outside of the home, until our marriages look less like the 1950s. >> what are you looking at?

>> this is the point for what do we learn for. women? let her finish. a very clear way to say, to redistribute power in the conversation is by saying, let her finish. i'm sure no one ever says that you. but if mika wanted to say let me finish, to be a good way to do it. >> we're very good in very many things. when, and we have not figured out how to put 36 hours into a 24-hour day. >> no. >> until we can have more redistribution as chore giving, the caregiving, the chores, all of the planning of those chores at home, we can't have power outside. >> we found both men and women, when women earn more than men, which is increasingly the case, a third of couples -- >> they do more at home? >> not only do they do more and hold, that's a given, they both lie about it to the census bureau. >> what? >> we are also invested in the status quo. so when we say, all we want men

who -- actually, this is a hard situation. >> it's hard wired. >> i won't talk about something else it's not that is hardwired, but also maybe a physiological difference. friendly voice, i think it was, it must have been on scorsese special. she's talking to a group of young women in college. they ask, when will women start to be treated just like man? and she said never. she said first of all, if you can get me some testosterone, put it in a little bottle, she said that's rocket fuel. i don't get it right. so we understand, there are some inherent differences that make men dumb, and focused, on i need to chew through that wall, do whatever it takes to win, et cetera, et cetera. i will die trying. women don't think that way. i'm not saying i've ever felt that way, but here's the thing, my question is what, so what do you tell your daughter.

what do you tell don's daughter, what do we tell -- >> my daughters. >> say listen, they're crazy? the wake up at two in the morning with sweat, they're going to be chewing through, what is the, not work around, but what is the way to compete in the workforce with that and get ahead of that? >> it's a balance, right? because all of the data shows that the way women lead works. men have a terrific way of leading women, but until the way we use power is accepted, it's hard for us. we're saying women aren't always going to behave in the same way as men. it's a great thing we found -- there's a lot of science in the book, a lot of the book is from data, and academics, in scientists, but we break it all down into temps. one is that you can actually prime yourself or power. you can make your brain feel more powerful. if you spent 15 minutes for

your daughter's big interview, or a pay raise, spend 15 minutes thinking -- you spend five minutes with a pen and paper. the pen, not a phone, and you write it down. studies of shown the people who do this have better success than people who don't. the impact can last for days. >> i think we'd argue to that the second part of our ego is pretty essential for power. and we see all of that right now. we don't need to say all that. this sort of less ego, more focus on the y, we think it's just something that works for everybody. >> i think women, i think women are better leaders. i just think they're much better leaders, period. i think they're superior in running corporations, superior to government. that's kind of like, there's a lot of people that are terrible running for president, who would be extraordinary presidents. i think right now, that's the dilemma. we have women who would be

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who dies first? joining us now, actor jermaine fowler, who plays clifton in the film. this is terrible. just terrible. really funny too. you think it's funny? >> i think it's hilarious. >> tell us about, it tell us about it. >> i've seen it three, four times. it gets funnier every time. when we premiered it at tiff, in toronto, it was just an audience of 1000 people laughing so hard. >> really? >> hearing jokes that were

coming up next. the next screening, they kind of had to turn up a little bit, this onyx, the volume at a couple parts so we could hear them. because it was just so raucous. it was gorgeous. it is a lovely experience. >> tell us about clifton. >> clifton is a bit of a nerd, a bit of an outcast. >> really? >> he wants to be expat accepted by his black friends, because he's just kind of, you know, a bit of a, and aloof in the way? not really accepted by the core group he's just a fly on the wall amongst the rest of the cast. >> so he voted for trump twice though. right? >> he did. >> talk to me about what's underneath this. it's funny, hilarious, but there seems to be something that this is trying to get out here, about how we understand blackness. that there is all of this difference that makes us who we are. talk to me about what is really at the heart. or what may be at the heart of this film. >> first and foremost, it's just a funny movie. you know what i mean, if you want to go time, just go see

the film. but beneath that, each character kind of plays a different, you know, a layer. or they're part of a different spectrum of blackness. you have a biracial girl, you have, a brother from africa. you have me, who is like, you know, the black nerd. everyone has a different -- because blackness isn't just one thing. we are all different. you know what i mean? that's what we embrace in the film. >> to that point, can i throw to another clip? and then we'll finish? take a, look in the film characters are asked to choose who is the blackest among them. and that person must die. here is a clip of the group trying to figure that out. >> while someone has to get picked, or we all end up like morgan and sean. >> nobody should judge anyone in here. >> i know you're not trying to argue about who is the blackest here? >> why? >> because you're a literal african. you're still in its original packaging, black. i'm sorry, but you are the blackest. >> first of all, i'm from oakland. my dad is from south africa.

so michael b. jordan, -- >> oh my god. >> -- we should note the film premiers at the trebek a film festival, at the famed apollo theater in harlem. how great is that? >> it's wonderful. i grew up watching showtime at the apollo. so it makes me a little nervous. i'm, like i hope they like the movie. >> it will be such an experience for you. >> it will be awesome, i can't wait, i really can't. >> i have a quick question for you. one of the most important fundamentals of making a movie is the pitch. you know, when you go in. >> oh yeah. >> the pitch. what was the pitch like for this show? >> was it you, did you pitch it? >> my manager sent me the script, i fell in love with the script. she says you have to pay clifton. i was, like i do. who wants to play clifton? but then we start to unveil a bit of this character, where it's all coming from, and it started really exciting me. i honestly just really love everyone a part of the film. everyone killed it. it was an easy project to do. it was just.

>> you know it's good when it comes easy. so congratulations. >> that does it for the first hour of morning joe weekend. but we're not done yet, more of the top story straight ahead. >> go get my coffee. we will be right back. we will be right back.

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hour of the morning show. >> i think you swore on three of the five shows this week. >> me? >> i think we did. >> i don't think it was me.

>> you are quoting aristotle, it got ugly halfway through the week. >> no, that was you. you have to stop using your potty mouth. all, right let's dive back into -- >> somebody's projecting. >> let's look at our top stories. >> are you ready? food for everyone. >> okay, that's great. food for everybody. jim >> he was arrested and released. he kept everybody's spirits up. >> by buying lunch for them. food for everybody. at a local restaurant in miami. >> really that so kind of him, maybe he's been misjudged after all. >> i think decades of experience told mika there was no free food for everyone. that's the miami were times reported yesterday. >> yeah, no, i know. and jonathan, you, i know, your reporting and hearing from people close to trump, like a lot of us are, growing concern about all of these indictments.

as you said yesterday, actually silence around new jersey. there's a bit of rumbling there, like oh, he's not really gonna do that. but from the trump camp, i'm not so sure about that. >> first of all, you can imagine my absolute stunned that donald trump would not fall through and pay for people there. places very good. excellent cuban food. there is real -- this is something that the president and the former president have been worried about for a while. he's facing someone now, jack smith, who they don't know, and i feel they can't intimidate. he is someone who seems immune to what their typical playbook is, which is the smokescreen, the attacks. the concern shuns of bias. we see that the new jersey, also, joe last night we heard from people, not sure how we are that is. they also can't rule it out. because i didn't expect all

that's happened to this point. and we know, that it's not just -- which they actually feel fine about. they're deeply concerned about the mar-a-lago documents. they're really worried still about georgia. georgia has been the one that's been the propped all along. it's not like that has gone away. that is just a few weeks down the road. >> there's a long time prosecutors have to really stress to prove their cases, a lot of circumstantial evidence sometimes, it's sometimes not quite as strong as they like. but if you look at that georgia case, they have the tape recordings. you look at the mar-a-lago case, they have incredible physical evidence. they have him saying things again on audiotape that close him. and they have him saying things in speeches. and on the sean hannity show, that our admissions of guilt. again, the picture so much, so

much hard evidence there, really problematic for this guy. >> i think that's right. when you look at the mar-a-lago case, you actually have a lot to look at. we have an indictment. i've heard in many of them as a federal prosecutor, joe. you make sure that you can prove every word, every sentence, every paragraph, assuming that's what prosecutors did here. because they're good at their jobs. that's a tough case for mr. trump. and as you point out, there's a bunch of different trains on different -- but i would also like to underscore something else here you said. these federal prosecutors, jack smith and his team, are enormously talented and experienced group of prosecutors. first, they're not gonna be intimidated by mr. trump or anyone else. second, they are not trying their case in the public sphere's, nor in a courtroom, in a federal court in florida.

and third, they are really good at what they do. you know, i won a lot of cases as the prosecutor. i was remarkably mediocre, what makes the difference is that you have the facts in the law. when you have the facts in the law, you don't have to be a gifted out cricket. you just have to be confident, to be able to set up in court, and introduce your evidence. if you can do that, and you've got, it then you have a strong case. >> jack rosenberg on behalf of -- all over the food planes. we give you the false modesty. >> a country lawyer. but sir, you are not mediocre. i am mediocre. >> i can attest to that. >> my wife will attest to that. i mediocre. you are the best. so, you know, we don't know what will happen, this is what scares trump. all we heard is, oh, so many

leaks. which there wasn't. oh smith is -- no he wasn't. because we were all surprised by miami. and trump was surprised by miami. and if they were surprised by miami, they start hearing about new jersey, they don't know. one of the things to, to this january 6th case, getting real -- by the moment. and again, the most damning thing for trump, along with the tapes, along with all the evidence january six committee drummed up, it's all of the people testifying against donald trump, they're all people of donald trump hired. >> yeah. this next reporting, although may at times seem comical. it does raise the question that we're going to show a little bit later on, with mitt romney, and a lot of others, in the republican party, who have asked questions like why. why did he hold on to these

classified documents. one week after the latest indictment of donald trump, there was new reporting that would poke holes in one of the former presidents defenses, to fight despite claiming earlier in the week, he hadn't had a chance to go through all of the boxes. that he took with him to mar-a-lago. former white house aides tell the new york times trump was on usually attached to those boxes. and their contents throughout his presidency and after leaving office. >> are you saying he was unusually attached to those boxes? >> unusually attach of the boxes. >> funny, some people get unusually touch to human beings, or faith, but he's unusually attacks to the boxes. >> he loved these boxes. >> he was obsessed with them. staffers reportedly referred to the boxes as trump's quote beautiful mind material. in reference to the book and movie about nobel prize winning

mathematician john nash. >> you're saying really, i don't think they meant it as a compliment. >> now his beautiful mind -- -- on the wall? yeah, yeah. >> yeah. >> he was diagnosed with schizophrenia has an adult. with his he covered the wall of his office with newspaper clippings and documents. he thought he was hired by the government to crack a russian code. >> john nash, a brilliant man, but deeply troubled as russell crowe's portrayal showed us. two people familiar with the practice tell the times, trump was meticulous about putting things in specific boxes, and could quote, generally identify what was in the boxes most immediately around him. the former president also reportedly had to bring documents with him to the west wing up to the white house residence. >> what? >> he went around his own staff system for tracking that material. since leaving the white house trump has maintained that

behavior, even filling up new boxes when those close to him suggest he condense his collection or review for classified materials. >>? why >>, this is coming from people close to donald trump, people of witnesses behavior, that was a running joke i guess it was inside the white house. this guy is like john nash in a beautiful mind traveling with his document. keeping his boxes, taking them upstairs, as maggie haberman and the times team pointed, out he was worn by members of his own staff, hey don't take that stuff with you. that stuff is classified. that stuff stays here, so he knew not only what was at mar-a-lago is classified, but this goes back to the time where he was president according to the sources. >> two things that are important to donald trump. two things. >> watch that? >> not his family, not connections of people, it's money and fame. so we're gonna ask why, i will find out why. >> next we'll hear from legal

analysts, lisa reuben, who is in the courtroom in miami with donald trump this week. ld trump this week (wheezing) asthma isn't pretty. it's the moment when you realize that a good day... is about to become a bad one. but then, i remembered that the world is so much bigger than that, with trelegy. because one dose a day helps keep my asthma symptoms under control. and with 3 medicines in 1 inhaler, trelegy helps improve lung function so i can breathe easier for a full 24 hours. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. trelegy contains a medicine that increases risk of hospitalizations and death from asthma problems when used alone. when this medicine is used with an inhaled corticosteroid, like in trelegy, there is not a significant increased risk of these events. do not take trelegy more than prescribed. trelegy may increase risk of thrush and infections. get emergency care for serious allergic reactions. see your doctor if your asthma does not improve or gets worse. ♪ what a wonderful world. ♪

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we've been talking about the evolution, and i'm not mocking it, politicians moving go where they think people -- >> he slightly moving towards -- the >> first day he was a fire breather, mike pence did what all republicans were doing first day. second day, he said what he did, it looks very serious if he did it. but i'll pardon him. thursday he landed on i think a very reasonable position. sort of an american position. innocent until proven guilty. let the process play out. that's very telling. that doesn't happen in a vacuum. that happens as more and more republicans are starting to see just how serious this is, and also the possibility of a new

jersey option. >> yeah. >> when we saw, the first vegas instance, when you saw trump get into this trouble, when the fbi went down to mar-a-lago and broke through. remember what happened. the whole party, the fbi, there, there through milan's bedroom, you know according to trump. they were rallying around him. it is easy to maintain that posture rally around trump, as long as, to use pence's word, the question of what is really hypothetical. we don't know what's in the documents. every step from then to now has gone worse for trump, up to the worst day. in his life? the day when this indictment came down? that is the day when it took them 24 hours to absorb the indictment, the death of a. what was in those documents? it is now, you know, been fully absorbed. we're seeing people, they're not going to run away from trump. i mean, he is still the most powerful force in the republican party. still the most loyal of all republican voters. nobody in that field,

understanding how republican dynamics, are throwing trump alongside besides chris christie. everyone all's is not going to do that. what they're going to do is, like that we watch those nba playoffs that were played over and over again, this is the new pads shuffle. everyone will find some way to gradually find an american position. but a position that is not standing next to donald trump. with an arm around hitting him, defending him on those facts. that is a crushing, like a crushing position to be in a general election. to be standing up there with a convicted felon on these counts, and having video of you saying the president was right, he didn't do anything wrong. there is no stain politician that is ever going to want to be in that position. that's what you see all these guys trying to get away from. >> that is in a split screen with donald trump, being let off in handcuffs. that's something no politician wants to be part of. >> and there's no ambiguity about this. stealing nuclear secrets? stealing war plans?

obstructing the return of those documents? everyone in the country gets that. it's not the arcane details of allen weisselberg. what did he do with the trump organization. you know? everyone gets this. >> [inaudible] >> exactly. you spent the better part of the last few weeks down in miami. you are in the courtroom. >> could you actually see what was happening? >> i could see a lot of what was happening. courtrooms are not huge places. particularly in miami, they're smaller than they are here in new york. i was on the side of the courtroom with the defense table. so i had a wonderful bird's-eye view of the back of donald trump's head. but the most chilling thing timmy was as donald trump was leaving his arraignment, he stood up, two rows of secret service agent stood up to fly came, to form a formation as they are walking out. and on public exit from the courtroom. where criminal defendants usually come from and go. that is the exit that donald trump used. but was what was really telling

to me was what happened next. his codefendant while not a didn't leave with his old own lawyers. what did he do? he went right in that formation, he left with donald trump. in an instant he flip from codefendant, on the same level as donald trump, to survival valet and a heartbeat. >> he went to the versailles restaurant with him, he was -- >> do you think he stays with him all the time, daylight at this point? >> i do. tom. >> did you have a view of jack smith? >> -- i mean, who is going to believe that? >> who is going to enforce that? >> donald trump is thinking nothing but the case. this has crushed him. people forget, donald trump, and joe, unite of talk about this, he this conference with his father. berating him, imagine the nightmare he is having now where his father saying i told you you weren't gonna be good. your disgrace. i mean, his whole world is shattered. and for him to not talk to the

valet who could flip on him, and seal the deal, would be preposterous. >> second most important topic versus crispy versus extra crispy. that's like the only other questioner into. >> so jan. it is really striking isn't it, to look, based on everything that we've heard from those that have seen donald trump go to the courtroom. you know, even those that have seen him out, that know him. his aides are saying, this isn't the same guy that has been playing strongman through the years. it's just sort of brushing things off. i mean obviously, because you know, we can't swear on this show, or use profanity, i can't court air quote aristotle or john kelly. >> no please don't. >> but he said he scared, he is very, very scared right now. >> we saw that on tuesday night, right? the low energy speech in new

jersey, even as he is saying, you just appreciate for us even, how complicated it's going to be for him to walk through this. what he says now could be admissible in court. everything that he's used to arguing, and not having any consequences, there are consequences that could end up with him in prison. and i think kyle is really right. that it is way too early to know politically how this is going to impact him. sure, for now, republicans are rallying around him. but there is no impact to the polls. he raised money off of this. but, i watched a focus group in iowa a couple nights ago. it was a republican congress, caucus that was highly inform people. they were asked, did the indictment change your view? and like most places, most people said no. we've seen that. one guy said, you know, it did. because i listened to the indictment.

he said you know, i was driving, i hate play, and i heard over and over again all of these, all of the different documents. how important they were. and it really gave me some concern. that set into the group, not just about the thought was reckless, but also, maybe he's not the best general election candidate. and expressed a lot of concerns about that. >> next, attorneys marks eight and neil catio about why getting security clearances could be a headache for trump's attorneys. ump' attorneys. ♪♪ when you're a small-business owner, your to-do list can be... a lot. ♪♪ [ buttons clicking ] that's why progressive makes it easy to save with a commercial auto quote online, so you can take on all your other to-dos. already did.

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♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ get 2.9% apr for 36 months plus $1,500 purchase allowance on a 2023 xt5 and xt6 when you finance through cadillac financial. >> joining us now is mark zaid. -- and security clearances at msnbc legal analyst, neil kotto. good morning to you both. mark, this is your area of

expertise. we have talked about the indictment with you. we obviously, you believe what most people believe, which is it's a very serious charge. with very serious consequences if indeed vic inducted. -- it is going to be an interesting rollercoaster, that is for sure. what we're going to see in the near future is trump pulled together a legal team, and they're gonna have to decide who among them is going to ask for security clearance in order to see the classified documents, and litigate the pre trial motions under what is called the classified information procedures act. i think any of these attorneys at the moment have clearances, that process could just be a matter of weeks, if they get interim clearances, if there's nothing really in their background, which could be something non-in the way of malicious it could be their married to a foreign, or foreign relatives overseas, or could be arrest, whatever it

might be. but the whole process could take months in and of itself, unless the federal government expedite sit. we're going to see education of judge cannon by the prosecutors under what is cepa as the acronym you'll hear that a lot over the next few months. because that judge, and that district court,, and 11 circuit that oversees it does not have a lot of experience with classified information. and an espionage act cases. so both sides are actually going to be educated in the next few weeks or months. the >> even talking about stupidity that's been breaking out, among some republicans, talking about what about hillary? what about hillary? you've bleeping through it. just exhaustively this morning about how you actually had the independent, the inspector general at the justice department. basically clearing hillary

clinton of course you had that happening in 2016. and this is what the inspector general say. they concluded there was no evidence that emails were intended -- to conceal the presence of classified information, on former secretary clinton. they reported if anything, if anything, inspector general says there was evidence of a conscience effort to avoid sending classified information by writing around the most sensitive material, horowitz concluded,, if ei director james comey also said no reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case. looking back at our in investigations we cannot find a case that brought criminal charges on these facts. why are we talking about 2016, 2017, 2018, because it's all republicans want to talk about. nuclear secrets of installing. some of the most sensitive

information has been stolen and mishandled, obstruction of justice has happened here, and all they want to do is talk about 2016, 2017, 2018, for our friends on the west coast waking up. , let's do the same thing, let's talk about it. the justice department under obama, 2016 looked at, it they said no reasonable prosecutor would bring the case of 2017 donald trump angry after promising to lock her up. pushing for special counsel. everybody around him said no. there's nothing there. there is no crime there, you can't bring anything. his counsel, his white house counsel, the,. . ? 's you of had four years to try to indict hillary clinton. the justice department wouldn't do it because there was nothing

there. >> that is exactly right. what all of this hillary clinton talk is just classic trumpian misdirection. back then, no reasonable prosecutor would've charged with the clinton. i think that is right, that is based on the independent inspector general's report. here, joe, by contrast we have the exact opposite. no reasonable attorney general could look the other way and not prosecute donald trump. i cannot imagine any attorney general, at least in my lifetime, they would've said, this is cool. you can steal classified documents. bring them to your club in florida and then lie about it to the authorities afterwards. to maintain these documents, make false representations. all of the shenanigans that these 49-page indictment detail. not the least of which with paragraph if before of that indictment, which i think everyone should read. it basically goes through and says the trump ordered his

attorneys to further their crimes and hide the evidence. obviously donald trump is entitled to the presumption of innocence. but if his defense is what we've seen that far, he is going to be convicted. i haven't heard any defense from anyone on the hill or from donald trump, or from his lawyers, that i think is going to hold up. joe, in court, you can't send someone to the witness stand screaming about hillary's email or joe biden's garage. those are not legal arguments. you can start making up mind declassification powers that don't exist. those defenses might work for trump's base -- >> and the public opinion. >> but they do not work in the court of law and they do not keep you out of jail. one count would be a life sentence for donald trump. coming, up a new partnership to fight antisemitism and hate speech in the middle east. you are watching morning joe weekend. weekend. your spending honey. i'm saving with liberty mutual, mom.

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partnering with to combat hate speech in the middle east, and beyond. the newly founded monroe center work to spread tolerance in the region working on tolerance and cooperation in universities across the region. as the u.n. security council as

discussed as a landmark resolution that would call out hate speech and extremism. joining us now the ceo of the anti-defamation league, jonathan greenblatt. also with us, united arab emirates ambassador to the united states, use this out a time of. good to have you both with us. >> thank you, youssouf. great to have you here. this is extraordinarily important. we know the history of the past of antisemitism. not only across the middle east but also, antisemitism in europe by muslims in the past. talk about why the uae thinks it is so important to step out and condemn antisemitism now. >> i think the reason for the partnership is very obvious. it is jonathan and my hair together. [laughter] but i think if you look at the partnership today you'd be

doing a disservice. our latium ship with the anti-defamation league goes back 20 years. -- my good friend started this connection over 20 years ago. this is a natural evolution of what adl has focused on what we need to focus on more in the region. atl obviously focuses rightly on the increased antisemitism in the u.s. and around the world. we have the same problem when it comes to extremism, hate speech, and incitement. we do not think enough is being done to manage it. until it becomes a tariff problem. until it becomes that or aces. i think it is really important focus on what happens before. how does this happen? the gradual indoctrination in the brainwashing that occurs. it feeds into a terrorism and extremism problem. june is a month when we are chairing the u.n. security council. our signature event is happening this wednesday. it is a resolution that we have cosponsored with the uk to address extremism.

it is a very, very, important part of who we are. it is one of our main values. we are going to continue to address it around the world, whenever and wherever we can. your organization as use of has said, had an ongoing partnership with the uae. talk about how important, how groundbreaking this resolution can be in the u.n.. >> i think the u.n. resolution is incredibly important. what i was thinking about the conversation you're having in the last segment. we cannot fight hate we also have to find hope. we need to be investing in the future. it is so impressive about the youssouf and the uae it is thinking about how do we fight extremism by bringing together college students young people, conferences exchanges the people to people connections is how we fight antisemitism, islamophobia, and all forms of prejudice. -- >> again talking about antisemitism, you just brought

up a great point, also fighting islamophobia in israel and beyond. >> that's right. ignorance is the enemy of all of us. leaders who promote ignorance, who promote intolerance, are dangerous. so the manara center recognizes that. we are not just focusing on bringing in a few grass top leaders, it is the grassroots. how do we build the next generation? focusing on hope, not hate. >> use, can you say a little bit about the progress dealing with textbooks in the arab world? places like egypt, the most populous country in the arab world, saudi arabia, or even beyond in places like pakistan, how do you see the movement to affect the thinking of young people in these regions? >> you are asking the right question, richard. this is exactly what the partnership with the adl's designed to address. i think there is progress. like you said, sporadic in some countries. less so in others. but you cannot wait for everyone for things to actually

change. you have to make some changes and hope that others will follow suit. that is exactly what we are doing. our textbooks have been changed. many in the region have been changed i think it is going to happen and as we highlight these types of initiatives a little more. it is going to be less taboo. it is going to be more popular to follow suit. we need to make it the norm. >> ceo and national director of the anti-defamation league, jonathan greenblatt, and the united air emirates ambassador to the united states use if allotype a. thank you very much for being on this morning. coming up, leslie odom junior won a tony in 2016 for his performance in the broadway musical, hamilton. now he's making a return to the stage for a new revival. he joins the table to talk about it next on morning joe. orning joe i'm a bear. i'm coming out of hibernation after the best nap of my life... and papa is hungry.

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>> it is amazing. >> leslie -- is a kind of like when paul mccartney here is i want to hold your hand? okay, i have heard that enough. >> now it's electrifying! >> it was a moment in time that was so extraordinary, wasn't it? >> it still touches me and moves me, you know? >> let's odom junior originated the role of aaron burr and the broadway hit, hamilton, and won

a tony for his tony winning performance. he is now returning to broadway in the revival of the satire, hurley victorious. >> hopefully people get very used to saying that name. >> purlie victoria's, a non-confederate romp through the cotton patch where he portrays the title role originally betrayed by the legendary ozzie davis. he joins us now. great to have. you >> thank you. >> so, tell us what we will see. >> i am going to be joined onstage -- in the original production it was ozzy's wife, deede, who played opposite him. she played the role of lee bell. in our production we have two time tony award nominee, miss carrie young. we have been decibel calloway. we have an incredible company

of thoroughbred new york artist to speak these words. 60 years after the premiere on broadway. >> leslie, for people who do not know the story of purlie victoria, set the scene a little bit unharmed what we will see. >> you see a brother come back to the farm on which he was raised. he comes from sharecroppers we will talk about share cropping in the months leading up to the show but my great-grandfather with the sharecroppers actually. it was not all it was cracked up to be. purlie comes back to his hometown in georgia. he's trying to find a way to buyback this church that his grandfather preached that because he believes in ownership. really the show is about what,

in america, we can lay claim to. what, in america, do we own? it is a comedy. you know the non-confederate romp through the cotton patch. emphasis on romp. >> and it's a musical? >> well, i'm gonna try to find a way to get some music in there. mr. davies wrote a play but, you know, it is hard for me to get on a stage and not saying a little. >> i think that the history, where we are now, the history of the whole idea of the sharecroppers, ownership, what he went through, that is important. as i said to you as a young activist i got to go ozzy davis, who was an activist. and ruby dee, who wasn't activists on steroids. >> [laughs] metaphorically -- >> yes, let me be clear. i have to do say that, metaphorically.

people also know how he really brought that to life. i remember as a kid going to see purlie. if there was anyone i think that can step on that stage and we capture that it is you, after watching what you have done in your career. tell me how you feel as an artist doing something the you know he will be compared with one of the great artists of all-time, ozzie davis. how did that? feel >> not that's gary right? oh you are right with that? >> it is a little scary but it is exciting. exciting you know? the first broadway show i did i was 17 years old when i went direct on broadway. i replaced -- i stepped into the shoes i'm somebody who had come before me. with hamilton i got to originate something. this to pick up something that someone wrote 60 years ago with somebody like me in mind, you know? it is a wonderful experience. in the theater, these things are ephemeral.

these moments come and go. we hope that you can be a part of something that is lasting. something that some young actor will pick up down the line and find their own strength in, you know? >> to put it into historical perspective, of course, we are coming up on the 16th anniversary of martin luther king junior's march on washington. of course, you will be leading that in august. but, john, for the 100th performance in 61 reverend martin luther king jr. day went and celebrated with the cast, the 100th performance. to show you, again, the historical importance. >> purlie victorious, a non confederate romp through the cotton patch begins previews september 7th at the music box theater here in new york city. tickets are on sale now. you better grab them up! >> i can't wait. >> leslie odom junior. thank you so much for coming on. >> the message, that was a fake

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>> it feels amazing! >> near the first woman to win. >> it feels incredible! i feel so incredibly grateful to be able to represent women in this way. to show the world that we are every bit as capable. i emphasize the heart, the connection, and the love. how much being in this place has been a relationship. i think that is something really special that women can bring. to be an influence for young women, to be a role model for young girls. to show them what they are capable of. to be the role model that i wish i had had as a young woman. that is so powerful. it means so much to me. >> wow. that was woniya thibeault, the first female winner of alone

frozen. a show on the history channel that drops survivalist in the canadian arctic with only a few supplies to see how they can make it in the air unsurvivable conditions. woniya is detailing her experience in her debut memoir entitled, never alone. a solo arctic survival journey. it is so nice to meet you. it was so incredible to watch that. you can really feel the power in that moment. i guess i want to hear more about you. i know the answer to this question tells us a lot, why did you decide to do that? >> yeah. that is a wonderful question. honestly, i had never pictured myself living in such an extreme environment. heading into the wilderness to live only with the resources that i could gather from it has been the focus of my life. so, getting to actually apply those skills for the long term was the realization of one of

my dear streams. >> i am told that you never felt a home in the modern world. is that correct? >> i was always one of the people that felt like they were born in the wrong time, you know? what i was supposed to be doing was hunting and gathering. even as a kid that's what all of my childhood games revolt around. getting to actually do it as an adult was amazing. >> hunting, gathering, but then there is being dropped in the middle of nowhere! freezing conditions! i know you have it all chronicled in your amazing book. but, what are some of the most harrowing moments that you confronted? >> that is a great question. the cold, certainly. the very long term starvation. this book is about my first time on alone, alone six and six. you could see i'm a small woman. i am five foot four. i dropped 50 pounds out there. it was incredibly physically grueling. >> that is incredible!

[inaudible] those were harrowing. but, being there wasn't anywhere near as harrowing or frightening to me as one might think, or as i thought going in. the beauty of the place, feeling so wanted, seen, and supported by this incredible wildly escape really balance of the challenging parts and made it, overall, a beautiful experience. >> dropped alone in the arctic. you write about it beautifully in the book but your takeaway is, this experience brought on you more healing than suffering. can you explain that? you were, potentially, freezing to death, starving to death. okay. that seems like a lot of suffering to me. >> right. well, it is a good example of the fact that whether something is suffering or healing, transformative, really has more to do with our mental and emotional makeup and how we engage. that >> is a healing later or in the moment? >> both, honestly. sure. i think that one thing as i

talk about in the book, i was a book warm. i was the proverbial kid they got picked to last for the softball team. i did not believe in my physical capacity. being out there was very healing in terms of self-worth, image, and ideas of myself. i had a lot of long term chronic health issues clear about there. >> what? >> i used to have a lot of joint pan. i had these chronic issues. when we go without eating there is a thing that happens called a toffee g, a body kind of eats itself. it starts with the less functional parts. the garbage that is sitting around in our bodies. it actually metabolites those for energy. i had long term shoulder issues clear. up issues with my achilles tendon. i felt more strong and vital in the years following that experience than i had in my twenties and 30s. >> talk about a cold plunge! that is a cold plunge. that is living in freezing conditions, and let's freezing conditions. >> yeah.

>> not just hours but days and weeks. >> when you have no warm place to go to you tend to acclimate to the environment. when we live in cold climates and we go to our toasty, 70-degree house. our body doesn't adjust. the cold feels colder. it was frigid. but, i got used to it. it didn't feel as terrible as it might otherwise. >> you are incredible! the new book is entitled never alone, a solo arctic survival journey. woniya thibeault, thank you very much. congratulations on the book. >> thank you so much. >> that does it for us for now. we are back, monday, at 6 am eastern. have a great rest of your weekend.