trump is alleged to have -- with top secret classified documents belong to the united states government, and his defenders are debasing themselves and their political party to defend their dear donald. first things first, trump did not just mishandle these documents. mishandling's carelessness. mishandling could be a mistake perhaps. but not having state secret spilled on the four of an unsecured closet at your golf club. not taking u.s. battle plans from the white house, keeping them in violation of the law, and of a subsequent court order, and then waving them around in a meeting with a writer in a publisher, neither of whom have security clearances, or the need to know that information. but perhaps most damaging is trump's public defense against the indictment. the fact that he is not really denying any of the key points. the facts, as alleged in the 37 counts. trump is readily admitting on the campaign trail, in public, that he took the documents, and that he indeed had them at his golf club. trump's defenders don't seem to be arguing the facts either. instead they're attacking the

justice department for pursuing charges in the first place. they have sunk back to school yard antics. whining, and what about-ing, and an echo of eight years, the phrase, but her emails has made it back into the gop's political rhetoric. which is a reference to hillary clinton's use of private email server when she was secretary of state. it was a controversial and flawed decision that the state department ultimately did say increased the risk of compromising classified information. but after multiple investigations, the episode concluded with officials finding no evidence of deliberate mishandling of classified information, and a republican appointed fbi director says no reasonable prosecutor would bring charges in the case. just like she was never found to have done anything wrong from the countless benghazi investigations. which the current speaker of the house kevin mccarthy once admitted on president were deliberately orchestrated by republicans as a political endeavor to sink her poll numbers.

now republicans are trying the same tactic on joe biden. opening investigations into the house, and throwing around a whole lot of accusations, and innuendos, and insinuations about corruption in biden's family business dealings. so far they have yet to turn up a shred of evidence, of any specific act of corruption. the trump defenders invoked a debunk years old conspiracy theory, which appears to have roots within other than mr. four seasons landscaping himself, rudy giuliani. he which even plays a part in trump's first impeachment, claiming that the bidens took bribes. however, on like in the 45-page indictment of donald trump, which clearly presents evidence of wrongdoing, these trump defenders, including the chair of the house oversight committee, james comer, never actually produced any evidence. publicly admitting that even they don't know it exists. but they insisted biden's guilty, and must be impeached unless. the other favorite, whataboutism of trump's defenders as one about the classified documents that were found in joe biden's possession? you may recall, some classified

documents were found in one of biden's residence is, but biden, like the former vice president, mike pence, who is among the 12 declared republican presidential candidates, and you also had classified documents discovered at his residence, turned them over once they were discovered. they followed proper protocols, and they cooperated with officials. they didn't weigh them around and show them to people. no charges have been brought against either of them. it's not a coincidence that none of the charges in the trump indictment involve any of the documents that donald trump did initially turnover. at the same time, as it relates to what the actual trump legal defense in court is going to be, it is worth noting that the documents trump kept on the ballroom stage, next to a toilet at his golf club are so sensitive in secret that trump's own legal team has not been allowed to see them yet, since his lawyers do not have proper security clearance. only yesterday did they notify the judge that they are working to obtain clearance, a process which could take a month. once the defense lawyers are

clear to be able to view the evidence, court papers filed yesterday by prosecutors reveal that among that evidence is information about quote, ongoing investigations, that could identify uncharged individuals. all the while, trump remains the front runner, via long shot, for the nomination for president for the republican party. the party of abraham lincoln, of ronald reagan, many of his republican challenges are taking to his defense. even pledging to pardon him if they win the presidency. the former u.n. ambassador, nikki haley, among those who suggested that she would issue a pardon, although she's also criticize trump as having been reckless with our national security. notably not in the parting camp? former new jersey governor chris christie. but judging by the polling, his candidacy might be a failure to launch, or at the very least, likely to hit bridge traffic. joining me now is silver it's a turn -- a former prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst, and the host of the charles coleman podcast. also with me as a former

chairman of the republican national committee, michael steele. also the former lieutenant governor of maryland, the host of the michael steele podcast, and an msnbc political analyst. gentlemen, my friends, i call upon them to now help me work some of this. our concern with a political question michael. >> okay. >> this should be a layup. this is a relatively easy one for most republicans who are really republicans, who are, you know, original conservatives who have a way out. they have an exit door for donald trump here. and so many of them are not taking. >> they've got 100 different ways they could remove themselves from trump's gains and the pressure that he has over the party. by just saying look, this information that we have, in this indictment, it's damning. and if the president takes the time to focus on resolving this through the legal process, and

as h so hutchinson says, lead the campaign. having knowing he's not doing that, they then should pivot and go, but we can't be caught in this. this is not about us as republicans, this is about donald trump. donald trump made this choice so donald trump has to work it through. meanwhile, follow me, as we go head to head against joe biden, and kamala harris about the future of the country, dealing with the economy, dealing with national security. they are very clean, easy politics one-on-one pivots. that these candidates can make. the fact that they won't, is the damning part for me. it says that it doesn't matter what they think they're going to do in this campaign. they already told us what they're going to do. because donald trump has such a hold on them, they can't get out of his gaze. and they don't want to. >> yeah.

>> the only one who seemingly prepared to do that is asa and chris christie. >> yeah. suarez just join the race for miami, even he said, i may use a pardon power to heal the country. it's like, no this won't heal the country. charles, we bring lawyers in for complicated matters, i will say this is one of the least complicated matters. this indictment is a relatively easy read for those of us who never went to law school. but there are a couple other legal questions i want to ask you. donald trump is in a whole lot of hot water. he's got a resurgence of e. jean carroll case, which will be heard in january of next year. he has got whatever's gonna happen in georgia. he's got, he has laetitia james's case, the civil case in new york. he has the manhattan district attorney. and jackson it has other stuff. letitia james says something the other day, in which she said, unfortunately, my case nda bragg's case are going to have to be adjourned until the resolution of this federal case. fani willis in georgia said no such things. she's not holding her case for the federal government. why is their discrepancy in

what may or may not go forward as a result of this federal indictment? >> part of it is, you have to look at the tear of the indictments that you're talking about. alvin bragg is a very local level. it is the city of new york. jack smith is federal. fani willis would be state. letitia james's civil. so it's not criminal. so it basically breaks down among the landscape of different types of litigation and prosecutions that you could have. and at the bottom of that you are going to have state and city prosecutions, that are going to yield to what's going on at a federal level. that's why we're seeing what we're seeing. and right now, it is not entirely certain whether fani willis and her case is going to have donald trump listed as a defendant. so there's no reason for her to slow down based off of what jack smith is doing. >> but does that mean this could all play out over years? because there's a whole lot of people who would like to see this result before the next election. that seems increasingly unlikely. >> i think it's incredibly unlikely, largely in part due to the number of legal

entanglements that donald trump is currently involved in. he is so much going on, simply from a case management standpoint, it is almost impossible for you to have him as a defendant in one place. multiple jurisdictions, multiple levels, trials going on at the same time. there are judges who were once advance all of these cases as quickly as they can. but simply, it's just not practical. so this is going to be something that occurs over the course of, i would estimate, the next 2 to 3 years. >> which goes right back to your point michael steele, that is that come november of next year, donald trump may still be, or he may be the republican nominee at that point. he may not be convicted of anything. no case may have been adjudicated. for a lot of these republican candidates, there's no benefit at all in getting in his way until he is out of the way. but that is going to wreck the republican party for yet another presidential cycle quite possibly. >> yeah, i mean why would you hammer yourself? do you want to be president or not? because if you do, then run

like you want to be president. that means any obstacle that's in your way, what are you gonna do? you take it out. you get around it. you're gonna move through it. you don't sit there and negotiate with it. you don't sit there and talk nice about it. i can assure you, i can assure you, that if trump didn't have the grip that he has, and largely through his base, that you know, threatens primaries, and threatens to make a lot of noise, these folks would be steamrolling all over him. maybe, maybe, because it does say something about 2016, and it really puts it starkly for you. when you think about the guy, he was at 3%, he had no base, and was basically, didn't even believe that he would be making it through the process. let alone win the nomination. the kowtowed at that point, i resolve to myself, there's no way they're gonna change now, what makes you think they're gonna get out of his way or get in his way? they're not. the reality of it is, they're

stuck with him, and they're gonna ride it. and all this talk about pardoning him, all this talk about, you know, not mentioning his name when they're talking about a situation. dude, then you don't want to play. you're not ready to be president, if you can't take on donald trump, what are you gonna do with you jinping? or vladimir putin? >> no, that's a valid point. charles, let's talk about the strength of the case. it was easy for me to read, it doesn't mean anything. it just means that it's not that complicated. donald trump is out there saying i had a right to those documents. he is literally making that argument. i suspect that won't work in court. he has to make an actual legal our argument, because there's actual indictments in counts. they have to have an actual response to those counts. >> ali, from the very beginning, i've said that this is about two things. the facts, and intent. donald trump cannot deny the facts, we have seen the documents. he can't say i didn't have them. he can't say he did no there

there. so now he has to go to intent. he has tried his best to basically change the law, and say, i could use the jedi mind trick, and to classify these things by thinking about them. they could be declassified because i am the former president. i had a right to these documents. that is not what the law says. and the timeline, and this is just so important, that jackson's lays out not indictment. it makes it clear that even after he was informed, mister president, mr. former president who is no longer in office, you don't have a right to make these, to these documents. he made every effort possible to involve evade investigators to keep those documents, even after he was told that they did not belong in his possession. so that is where that defense that he has tried to advance, over, and over again through his lawyers, asking this be treated as an administrative matter, through other people. and to the public narrative, it is not going to work in court. because it's not with the law says. >> michael, how about, look, we're still waiting to see what happens on january six in the

election overturning cases with fani willis and jack smith. they're easier for the mind to understand. this one is marginally easier for the mind to understand in the manhattan d.a. case, because to us non legal minds, some of these things do feel administrative, or smaller. but once we got to meet on the bones of this indictment, and you saw the kind of stuff that he was showing reporters about an attack plan on another country, or the nuclear capabilities of the united states, it becomes easier to understand, this is not an administrative matter. this is possibly a national security matter. >> this is serious stuff, it's absolutely, it doesn't get much more serious than this. involving a then, and now, former president of the united states, behaving in a way that raises suspicions about his handling of sensitive, sensitive classified documents. that raises suspicions about what he did and wanted to do with those documents. i am curious if anybody is going to be looking at his bank

records, to see if there was a sudden flush of cash coming in. because i, i would almost bet you, this boy has profited off of some of these. he had these documents in boxes. there is a lot of stuff here. for any member of congress, i don't care what party you, are especially if you're republican, who is supposed to be all law in order, in the constitution, blah, blah, this is a serious matter. the whataboutism, the but what her emails be has, all of that pales in comparison, it to charles's point, this intent, donald trump is telling us every day what his intent was. i want to take the documents. i want to keep the documents. they're my documents. i mean, how much more do we need? >> how much more do we need? >> it's crazy to me. >> we should change the name of the show to how much more do we need?

or how much more can we take? guys, i love you both, thank you so much for being here. charles -- the former prosecutor and civil rights attorney, and nbc legal analyst, former chairman of the -- botham great friends of the show. still ahead, the supreme court's conservative supermajority is shaping american policy and everything but abortion to guns. we're waiting on several decisions. we're gonna speak to constitutional lawyer michael waldman on the growing distance between the people in the court. representation on screen really matters, minnesota's representation at the top of the tv networks. we're gonna talk about black media ownership, why it matters, and why it is increasingly rare? plus, the ukrainian president, volodymyr zelenskyy, sat down for a conversation with my colleague nbc's chief foreign correspondent, richard engel, about what it would take to win the brutal war that russia is raging against his country. against his country g you love. rsv could cut it short. ♪ rsv is a contagious virus that usually causes mild symptoms

but can cause more severe infections that may lead to hospitalizations... ...in adults 60 and older... ...and adults with certain underlying conditions, like copd, asthma, or congestive heart failure. talk to your doctor and visit cutshortrsv.com. (vo) this is sadie, she's on verizon. and she has the new myplan where she gets exactly what she wants, like copd, asthma, or congestive heart failure. and only pays for what she needs. she picks only the perks she wants, and saves on every one. all with an incredible new iphone. act now and get iphone 14 pro max on us when you switch. it's your verizon. sometimes, the lows of bipolar depression feel darkest before dawn. with caplyta, there's a chance to let the light shine through. and light tomorrow, with the hope from today. this is a chance to let in the lyte. caplyta is a once-daily pill that is proven to deliver significant relief across bipolar depression. unlike some medicines that only treat bipolar i, caplyta treats both bipolar i and bipolar ii depression.

and in clinical trials, movement disorders and weight gain were not common. call your doctor about sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants may increase these risks in young adults. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report fever, confusion, stiff or uncontrollable muscle movements which may be life threatening or permanent. these aren't all the serious side effects. in the darkness of bipolar i and ii depression, caplyta can help you let in the lyte. ask your doctor about caplyta today. find savings and support at caplyta.com. the subway series? it's the perfect menu lineup. just give us a number, we got the rest. number three? the monster. six? the boss. fifteen? titan turkey. number one? the philly. oh, yeah, you probably don't want that one. look, i'm not in charge of naming the subs. one prilosec otc each morning blocks heartburn all day and all night. prilosec otc reduces excess acid for 24 hours, blocking heartburn before it starts. one pill a day. 24 hours. zero heartburn.

(vo) when someone is diagnosed with cancer, they need support. blocking heartburn subaru and our retailers are there to help... by providing blankets for comfort and warmth and encouraging messages of hope to help support nearly three hundred thousand patients facing cancer nationwide. we call it “the subaru love promise.” and we're proud to be the largest automotive donor to the leukemia and lymphoma society. subaru. more than a car company. (vo) if you've had thyroid eye disease for years and things are a no-go because you keep seeing double, it's not too late for another treatment option. to learn more visit treatted.com that's treatt-e-d.com. so, you've got the power of xfinity at home. now take it outside with xfinity mobile. like speed? it's the fastest mobile service around. with the best price for two lines of unlimited. only 30 bucks a line per month.

that's hundreds in savings a year when you wave bye to the other guys. no wonder xfinity mobile is one of the fastest growing mobile services. you really shouldn't walk out the front door without it. switch today at xfinitymobile.com. >> turning out a grueling war

overseas where ukraine is continuing its counteroffensive against russian forces. the country's deputy defense minister confirmed earlier today that the troops have a quote, tactical successes in the country's south and that ukrainian forces are advancing toward the eastern city of bakhmut. that was finally captured by russia last month after months of fighting. despite that counteroffensive, russian president dismissed any notion that ukraine will gain any ground saying that it is counteroffensive has quote, no chance. ukraine's president volodymyr zelenskyy is opening up about his country's military maneuvers in a new exclusive interview. chief foreign correspondent is in kyiv with more on what they discussed. richard, good morning. >> was often compared to boxing matches. here in this conflict, it very much feels like we are in a new round with a new dynamic. since this war started, it has been the russians who have been driving towards kyiv, trying to take territory. and the ukrainians defending their homes, defending their

towns and cities, pushing the russians back. but now, the tables are turned. it is ukraine's fighting against dug in russian positions that our mind, they have a lot of time to prepare them, and it is proving already in these early days to be a tough fight. >> ukraine is a full scale fight to take back russian occupied land. a pivotal moment for our interview with ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy at the presidential compound in kyiv. >> it's a very critical time for you. >> critical, and very busy. >> for a year, ukraine has been fighting successfully to defend itself. now, it is on the offensive to breakthrough russian frontlines. it is proving to be a challenge and zelenskyy says if ukraine prevails, they will win the war. >> we are now in the early days of this long anticipated counteroffensive. how is it going? >> translator: i cannot give you all the details, they're

both defensive and offensive actions. things look not bad. i would say, it is generally positive. but it is difficult. our hero people, our troops who are now at the front of the frontline are facing very tough resistance. and you understand why. for russia, to lose this campaign to ukraine, i would say actually it means losing the war. >> presents the lynskey also had a dire warning, he blamed russia for going up a dam which russia denies it denies, flooding dozens of villages and he tells us that the next russian target is the zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant. with u.s. elections looming, president zelenskyy said he is well aware of some republican candidates including former present trump and governor desantis or expressing doubts about american support to ukraine.

>> translator: yes, we are concerned about this. yes, i believe it is a great risk for ukraine. we are not worried about a new person in power, but a change in diplomacy of the united states. that is what we don't want. i believe it won't happen. >> i could sense, ali, from president zelenskyy some frustration over the issue of combat aircraft, fighter jets. he has been asking for them for the start of the war. close the skies, give us f-16s. they are now has been a political decision to give f-16s to this country and there was a meeting recently to try to work out some sort of schedule, and agreement to start training pilots. but it is still unclear how many fighter jets are going to come here, when they're going to arrive, which countries exactly are going to be giving them, and how long it is going to take. to get the pilots trained, get the aircraft ready for use, and

put them into action. and president zelenskyy is saying that he has been asking for this since the beginning of the war. why hasn't there been more urgency and every day they don't come, more of his people are dying. >> that is the thing we keep on waiting for, richard. thank you for great reporting, richard engel and keefe. all right, still ahead, we're coming to the end of the critical supreme court term, we're still waiting decisions on this year's most politically consequential cases. coming up next, how the conservative super majority is dividing america. conservative super majority is dividing america dividing america kevin...? i put it on my chase freedom unlimited card. and i'm gonna cashback on a few other things too. starting with the sound system... [autotune] that's caaaaaaaaash. cashback like a pro with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cashback? type 2 diabetes? cashback like a pro with chase freedom unlimited. discover the power of 3 in the ozempic® tri-zone. ♪ (oh, oh, oh, ozempic®!) ♪ in my ozempic® tri-zone, i lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost some weight. ozempic® provides powerful a1c reduction.

in studies, the majority of people reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. ozempic® lowers the risk of major cardiovascular events such as stroke, heart attack, or death in adults also with known heart disease. and you may lose weight. adults lost up to 14 pounds. ozempic® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes. don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. don't take ozempic® if you or your family ever had medullary thyroid cancer, or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if allergic to it. stop ozempic® and get medical help right away if you get a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, or an allergic reaction. serious side effects may include pancreatitis. gallbladder problems may occur. tell your provider about vision problems or changes. taking ozempic® with a sulfonylurea or insulin may increase low blood sugar risk. side effects like nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea may lead to dehydration, which may worsen kidney problems. join the millions already taking ozempic®. ask your health care provider about the ozempic® tri-zone. you may pay as little as $25 for a 3-month prescription.

your best defense against erosion and cavities is strong enamel- nothing beats it. new pronamel active shield actively shields the enamel to defend against erosion and cavities. i think that this product is a gamechanger for my patients- it really works. chevy silverado factory-lifted trucks. where will they take you? with the capability of a 2-inch lift. ♪♪ the versatility of the available multi-flex tailgate. ♪♪ and the connection of a 13.4” diagonal touchscreen. chevy silverado. taking adventure to a whole new level. trying vapes to quit smoking might feel like progress, but with 3x more nicotine than a pack of cigarettes - vapes increase cravings - trapping you in an endless craving loop. nicorette reduces cravings until they're gone for good.

(vo) this is sadie, she's on verizon. and she has the new myplan where she gets exactly what she wants, and only pays for what she needs. she picks only the perks she wants, and saves on every one. all with an incredible new iphone. act now and get iphone 14 pro max on us when you switch. it's your verizon. (tap, tap) listen, your deodorant just has to work. i use secret aluminum free. just swipe and it lasts all day. secret helps eliminate odor, instead of just masking it. and hours later i still smell fresh. secret works. ohhh yesss. >> we are coming to the end of another supreme court term in america, the justice has turned out decisions in major cases. yesterday, the high court preserve the justice department's broad authority to dismiss whistleblower lawsuits filed under the false claims act. a provision in the false claims act empowered whistleblowers to file lawsuits on behalf of the

federal government if they know an individual or a company is defrauding the government. in a specific case from the supreme court, a doctor named jesse polanski filed a claim against a health company accusing it of causing millions of dollars in false buildings to the government under the false claims act. polanski would be able to collect about a third of any money they govern recovered only if it agreed to take up the case. the doj initially decided not to intervene but eventually the jumped in and persuaded judge to -- he took us to the supreme court but the justices ruled that the oj can dismiss the case and should not be forced to bring the whistleblower suit, even if the government initially allowed the suit to proceed. this decision comes on the heels of a major victory for native american rights. the supreme court on thursday upheld key provisions of the indian child welfare act. ruling that adoptions involving native children can give priority to tribal families. this was a seven to do vote, it

sided with a law passed in 1978 to remedy the fact that hundreds of thousands of native american children were removed from their homes by adoption agencies and placed with white families or in group settings. the supreme court is not finished with its case just yet, it saves some of this most politically consequential decisions for the very end. that means in the next few weeks, the justices will decide in cases involving joe biden's plan to slash the student debt of more than 40 million people. a case involving the religious website who refuses to create pages for same sex weddings and race based affirmative action. in higher education. the screen court term has been closely scrutinize given the conservative super majority stack by donald trump. the supreme court's decision to overturn the constitutional right to an abortion almost a year ago was just a glimpse into the future that we can expect with this majority, one that is poised to continue rolling back long established freedoms and laws.

the president of the brennan center for justice summed it up like this. super majority, how the supreme court divided america quote, it overturned roe v. wade, repeating the protection for abortion rights, putting at risk all other privacy rights. it radically loosened curbs on guns amid an epidemic of mass shootings. it hobbled the ability of government agencies to protect public health and safety and stop climate change and quote. joining me now is the way for mentioned mark, he is the president does he know of the brand incest center for justice at nyu law school. he served under president biden's commission on the supreme court. as i mentioned, he's the author of the important book, the super majority, view the supreme court divided america. michael, thank you for being with us. >> it's good to be here. >> we've been trying to get you on, the news has interfered with us a little bit. this is such an important book and such an important time. i want to read you from political about the affirmative action ruling that we are expecting. maybe next week, maybe the week after. this shift in focus to the

experience of disadvantage and racism from race itself will lead to for the co-opting of this advantage. it will place a premium on an afghan's ability to present a compelling narrative of their experience. that is why frame of action never should have been decoupled from racism. not just to explain the debt that colleges over the past tense, but to contextualize their racist present. evaluate that for me. >> one of the reasons that colleges and lots of other institutions focus on diversity is actually language from a supreme court decision several decades ago. these rulings are really big, really important. that is one of the reasons it is so important that we trust the supreme court to be in some sense above politics and it's nonsense acting like a court. if the supreme court does on the race as a factor in a form of action, it is going to scramble how universities and then eventually other institutions deal with our growing and changing and diverse country. it is one of the kinds of things that we need a supreme

court to not be extreme, not ideological and not pushing an agenda. >> you're right about that in your book. you talk about the court of public opinion. you say conservatives and liberals now are remember-ing that the only way to win meaningful policy changes to first win in the court of public opinion. it turns out that the most important words in the constitution are we the people. this is from page 273. what do you mean by that, the court of public opinion? >> the most, keep the most lasting and ultimately the most important social change comes when the public buys into. it when it becomes part of how we all see the country. even if you think about civil rights, the biggest changes came not just from the supreme court ruling, like brown versus board of education, but from the protests on the streets and then eventually civil rights legislation in force by the federal government. conservatives have understood, this they have pushed a definition of guns, they have pushed a lot of their conservative social views.

for a long time liberals were bedazzled by the memory of a very brief period when the supreme court was ahead of the country. equal rights. most of the time, the supreme court hugs the middle, most of the time. it reflects the consensus of the country. conservatives understood that they need to talk about the court and then it's for everybody to be thinking about and talking about. >> let's talk about the voting rights. that did surprise a number of people. >> i sure was not having that one on my video card. the reason that it surprised is this, this is a very conservative court. the super majority last court term did all the things you described in more. and signaled that is gonna push hard to push the country to the right. the one thing where this court and john roberts have been even more aggressive on over the years is the love of democracy. ten years ago, the supreme court gutted the most important part of the voting rights act and they've done other

decisions to. people were afraid that this would be their final wrecking ball in the voting rights act. instead, the ruling said that you could use this law as before to challenge gerrymandering in a way that dilutes the power of black voters in alabama. but in other states as well. it was a really unexpected thing, it was important when, at the same time what it was was keeping the law as it was. >> treating things as winds that are status quo. >> staying with the recent ruling on the indian children act, that was also passed by congress. we should understand that these are nine unelected government officials with lifetime terms who are being very aggressive in knocking down laws they don't like, claiming they are doing it with originalism, meaning that the idea that they should only ensure the constitution based on what it meant when ratified, meaning

that in the late 1700s. >> which most people come around to the idea that most people's changed. joe biden says, if you like the idea, the only way to do this is to get congress to give you the rights. you write about this on page two 68. above all, we must find a way to read the constitution as a charter for a thriving equal democracy. that where democracy appears nowhere in the constitution. but federalism and separation of powers are not mentioned either. they are implied throughout, individual rights have now been weaponize not to bolster democracy but to undermine it. weather is a fetishes version of the first amendment destroying campaign finance law or trumped up claims of religious freedom used to poke loopholes in public health and education measures. >> your argument is, you are going to vote if you want this changed. >> you have to vote, you have to ask candidates what are you going to do about this, what are you supporting. we can also reform the supreme court itself through something like an 18-year term limit for justices, that he is being that no one should have that much public power for too long or a binding ethics code which we

all see the reason for these days. again, they are the only quorum country that doesn't have a binding ethics code compared to the state and other federal courts. and even passing laws to undo some of the wrong rulings if we think they're wrong. they are not religious figures, they are not wizards, even though they wear robes. the government officials, right now they are part of a very aggressive conservative political machine that has done a lot to install them there. it does allow them to back them up. it is very well funded as it turns out in the federalist society and other institutions like that. and we have the ability if you don't like they're doing to do something about it, passing constitutional amendments. it is up to the voters in the public, including liberals and progressives, not just conservatives who have understood this for decades. >> we are going to see that after the stuff happened in certain states. but this is important that voters take this into -- michael, good to see you, thank you. this is important book so i highly recommend that you read it to get a good understanding

of what is going on. michael, the president of the center of justice. the super majority, the year the supreme court divided america. still ahead, representation really matters. seeing someone who looks like you on tv is the main character is crucial. should representation go all the way to the top? we're gonna talk about diversity within a notably small club of media moguls. owners and executives. that is right after the break. ners and executives. that is right after the break. our heritage is ingrained in our skin. and even when we metamorphosize into our new evolved form, we carry that spirit with us. because you can take alfa romeo out of italy. but you best believe, you can't take the italy out of an alfa romeo. (vo) this is sadie, she's on verizon. and she has the new myplan where she gets exactly what she wants, and only pays for what she needs.

she picks only the perks she wants, and saves on every one. all with an incredible new iphone. act now and get iphone 14 pro max on us when you switch. it's your verizon. >> they have been recent

reports that the media mogul actor and producer tyler perry is in talks to purchase controlling stakes in the television networks b.e.t. and vh1. according to bloomberg news, the billionaire perry entered a bidding war in late may for the cable channel. competing against an array of other black celebrities including shaquille o'neal, kenya barris, sean did combs, and curtis jackson, otherwise known as 50 cent. in april, perry, who already

owns i minority stake in b e to confirmed his interest in the purchase to e.t.. >> i've been there for four years now and have had tremendous success. i wasn't expecting this to happen, so yes, i'm very interested in taking as much as i can. >> we do know that's gonna happen. there has been another public statement about this report since then. but if successful, b.e.t. or black and edema television would be under majority black ownership for the first time in 21 years. across the board, black ownership of television stations remains particularly low despite the attempt by federal communications commission to try to even the playing field. in 1978, the fcc adopted the statement of policy on minority ownership broadcasters. aimed at encouraging diversity in media ownership, it gave majority stakeholders a tax incentive to sell their licenses to minorities. and yet, people of color and women still disproportionately own far fewer major media

outlets then their representation in the population would suggest. the fcc released a study earlier this year which analyzed diversity among ownership of commercial full powered television stations. it found that in 2019, while about 13% of the american population identified as black, only about 2% of stations with the majority interest in race were black-owned. all stations. stats were similar to asian and latino networks that aired content appealing to those ethnicities. in total, people of color make up 40% of the population, or at least in 2019. but only about 9% of stations with a majority interest in either race or ethnicity. diversity and representation in media is crucial. people of color need to be able to turn on their tvs, watch the movies and watch tv channels and see people who look and sound like them. but cannot be achieved just by having people of color on tv or on story by lines? or does ownership in control matter. a 2020 study by the national

research group found that two and three of black americans do not feel that they see their stories represented on screen. and authentic representation in the media starts at the very top. i'm said to welcome my next guest who is the expert of experts on media representation, o'brien is enough award winning journalist, she's a documentarian, the author and ceo of o'brien productions which specializes in developing tv and fill content that amplifies marginalized voices while exploring social issues like race, class, gender, and identity. she is the host of matter-of-fact which is syndicated in virtually every tv market the country. check your local listings for. and she is an old friend and mentor to me. it's good to see you. >> and likewise ali, nice to see you as well. >> i want to ask you about something that you said to yahoo finance about black representation in media. she said i think, you see more diversity on camera but as all the snow, the real power is the

person in the meeting the talks about what the direction of the network is going to be. so that is not always the anchor. you have a strong health belief that ownership, i don't want to say it matters more, but certainly it matters in this equation. >> ownership matters a lot, let's start with tyler perry for a moment, you mentioned that he already has 25% of the t plus. note that he also has eight shows currently on a b.e.t.. tyler perry doesn't buy it, somebody is going to have to pay tyler perry a whole bunch of money if they want to keep his shows. this is a certain amount of power and leverage. that ultimately i think is what ownership buys you. whether it is ownership of a company, ownership of the platform, ownership of the entire network, ownership of the shows. i think, and i've been doing this a minute as you pointed out, since the early 19 80s when i started working in tv news, a lot of the conversation was about putting representation on camera. let's tell stories about people of color in some capacity.

i think those conversations have shifted to what ownership can actually get to. and to me, i think ownership is about equity, ownership is about economic freedom. ownership is about not having to ask permission. hey, do you think possibly we could put this on tv, with this be a good idea? this is just doing. it other lots of examples where you see the power of ownership day in a day out? >> how does this get remedied? if we feel that ownership should be better spread out, these are commercial ventures in many cases, clearly we have a lot of very wealthy black people who are interested in the speedy deal. it is quite possible that that could end up being the case. but how do you think about this generally in the broad spectrum of journalism we think ownership matters, even if you're not talking about race. we're just talking about a bad landscape of journalism in some cases in america. how do you remedy these things? >> i think it is a combination of support and access to

capital which i know over the years you have done a ton of reporting on. without access to capital, we know women and minorities get far, far less access to capital. it is very hard to build a productive business. in this case, it's interesting, we already have ptc plus. it is a scale. it is -- they're not saying a boy, it would be great to build this network and do all of these things to get people to come and watch it. that also makes it a big deal. you and i both know, martin who is a friend of both of us, it is the black store network, he started three or four years ago. but the other day he had on a 45-minute long story about the doj in minneapolis about report about police abuse. 45 minutes, which is not done. everybody else is covered it a, couple minutes here in. i think he has to say with his ownership a, this is what i think this show deserves. this is what i think this story deserves from the audience i serve. but, he has to go out and raise money, raise capital in order to be able to do what he is doing. i think that is really where

the stumbling block is. so, people often talk about supporting minorities in some capacity, i think some of that support should really be dollars and cents. we are also seeing now, what we saw was called the 600 pound gorilla which is, if you have a company that has some kind of scale, you can say, well guess what, i would like our fountains to be diverse to and our lawyers should be diverse to. and the people who cater, you have this ability to actually push opportunity to every single level where your businesses. we did a dock for hbo, a series called black and missing. it is stream actually write this moment. i had four women of color as my directors for each hour. people would say all the time, it's just not possible. the pipeline, we just can't. well, my company is tiny. i found foreign of color to be directors. it is doable, you actually have to push people to say, you can find it, you can fund it, you

can commit to it, you can't just talk about it constantly and not do anything. >> you know, over the course of the time that we work together, there was a point where if you were black or you will not white and you were at the table in a white owned company, you often had to keep your head down to get farther not company until you are in a position where you could then let's do this story, you don't ask as much permission for. now the world is changing, now even in maine's dream news organizations we are making efforts at hiring people who are bringing their full authentic selves. they are not thinking it like i was. when i was coming up in this business, i did everything possible to not make sure people had any sense of my real identity was so that i could just be like everybody else. is that change good? >> i think that change is great, i think it would be amazing if white people also would say hey, i think we should see more diversity here. that burn often falls on the people of color in the room.

sometimes it is a little exhausting, why must you be advocating for that? why should it be one advocating for that? there is lots of data that shows diversity is very good for businesses, we know that. i would say that i think you are seeing change, people are being encouraged to be a resource for their organization. but i like to see it go farther, i'd like to see it not just -- you around the table, you're not being encouraged to speak. what can you do to now create opportunities for everybody else? that really is ownership and that really is an investment in equity for the entire community. >> it's good to see my friend, thank you. i really want to have this conversation. o'brien, she's the ceo of o'brien productions and host of matter-of-fact with soul in it o'brien which is syndicated in every tv market if you check local listings for. we've a little more velshi coming up, but first news of texas. this week, the state's governor greg abbott signed a bill banning a diversity, equity, and inclusion offices at all

state funded colleges and universities. the bill passed through the texas legislature last month. largely along party lines, critics of bill worry that it promotes discrimination and will discourage whatever students from attending and applying to those schools. conserved lawmakers argue that the ei efforts are a form of indoctrination in the same way that critical race theory has been wrongly conflated with any black-centric literature or lessons. we can expect more of this by the way in the coming months. more than a dozen states have introduced or passed bills severely restricting or limiting dei programs, including florida. in the coming days, the unite state supreme court is expected to embed a form of action. alternate regards of race bennett from the diversity of background lifestyle, and thought on campuses and in their classroom. t on campuses and in their classroom. their classroom. on verizon. and she has the new myplan where she gets exactly what she wants, and only pays for what she needs. she picks only the perks she wants, and saves on every one. all with an incredible new iphone. act now and get iphone 14 pro max on us when you switch. it's your verizon.

whenever you're hungry, there's a deal on the subway app. buy one footlong, get one 50% off in the subway app today. now that's a deal worth celebrating. man, what are you doing?! get it before it's gone on the subway app. ♪♪ ♪♪ when you're a small-business owner, your to-do list can be... a lot. ♪♪

[ buttons clicking ] that's why progressive makes it easy to save with a commercial auto quote online, so you can take on all your other to-dos. already did. see if you could save at progressivecommercial.com. >> this monday, day after

tomorrow's juneteenth. commemoration of the day in 1865 when the last enslaved african americans were informed that they had been freed. it is a day to honor the african americans who were forced against the will to build this country. it's a day to celebrate the richness of black culture and achievement that grew and five in spite of all that. it is a day that marks history for all. but more than 150 years after emancipation, black authors and black leaders are facing a different type of subjugation, access to books that explore and celebrate what it means to be black in america. stories that are written by black authors and featuring black protagonists are facing

censorship at disproportionately high rates. these books deserve a spot at the forefront of history and at the center of contemporary literature. they're bestsellers, they are word winners, they're mostly written, they are beautifully crafted, and most important they are real. because of all that, we have taken the opportunity to read back stories and hear from black authors on the velshi banned book club. with many more to come. here are a few moments that stuck with me from my conversation with literary scholars over the last year and a half. >> it should matter that it may never touch your doorstep for you to be concerned about the welfare of your brothers and sisters of color. it is that simple. we want to illustrate that suddenly in a nuanced way. >> it is why running good novels are so important to helping us become better human beings, to helping us see the world in very different ways. tony morrison was a master craftsman in this regard.

>> if i had to say what the thesis of martin's on page 1:52, you can change how other people think and act, but you are able to control you. when it comes down to it, the only question that matters is this, if nothing in the world ever changes, what type of person are you going to be? >> the 16 19 project is unconsciously patriotic because what it argues, despite what critics say, is that black people have believed in this country despite everything that this country is done to black people. they have loved it and they have fought to make it a country of our highest ideals. >> next weekend, we are honoring juneteenth with more literature that explores the black experience. keep your eyes on twitter for next author. that does it for me, thank you for watching, catching back here tomorrow morning at 10 am to noon eastern. don't forget velshi is available as a podcast, subscribe to listen for free wherever you or your podcast will be. i was where that vest when i podcast. stay right where your, alex witt reports begins right after a quick break. witt reports begins right afte a quick break. a quick break. ♪ and this is fernando, ♪ ♪ searching savings with a click. ♪ online or in-store,

for your health and your wallet. 85% of scripts are under ten dollars. cvs pharmacy. healthier happens together. one prilosec otc each morning blocks heartburn all day and all night. prilosec otc reduces excess acid for 24 hours, blocking heartburn before it starts. one pill a day. 24 hours. zero heartburn. we're talking about cashbackin. not a game. not a game! we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. we're not talking about practice? we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. not a game! we've been talking about practice for too long. -word. -no practice. we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. i mean, we're not talking about a game! cashback like a pro with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours. i'm kareem abdul jabbar. i was diagnosed with afib. the first inkling that something was wrong

was i started to notice that i couldn't do things without losing my breath. i couldn't make it through the airport, and every like 20 or 30 yards i had to sit down and get my breath. every physical exertion seemed to exhaust me. and finally, i went to the hospital where i was diagnosed with afib. when i first noticed symptoms, which kept coming and going, i should have gone to the doctor and told them what was happening. instead, i tried to let it pass. if you experience irregular heartbeat, heart racing, chest pain, shortness of breath, fatigue, or light-headedness, you should talk to your doctor. afib increases the risk of stroke about 5 times i want my experience to help others understand the symptoms of atrial fibrillation. when it comes to your health, this is no time to wait. what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. ♪

stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ >> a very good day two of you

from msnbc world headquarters here in new york. welcome everyone to alex witt reports, we begin with breaking news. president biden surveying the i-95 bridge collapse by air this morning. as assessing the damage from the tanker truck explosion just months ago. the president pledging billions of dollars from his bipartisan infrastructure law to help rebuild. he's holding his