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of ayman, televising trumps trial. my argument that the public needs to see the documents case lie banned in color as it unfolds in realtime in court. then, the pardon primary, republican presidential candidates are scrambling to pledge to protect the ex president. and worst of the week, two republican senators have become human roadblocks, putting our nation security at risk in the process. who will take the title this week? i'm ayman mohyeldin, let's started.

so donald trump surrendered to authorities this week at a federal courthouse in miami. this is one of the only glimpses that we got of the ex president at the courthouse that day. a shadowy figure, waving behind a car's tinted glass. that sad images now how generations will remember the historic second indictment of donald trump. and that's because just hours before trump's court appearance, magistrate judge, jonathan goodman, who oversaw the proceeding, denied a request from a group of local and national media outlets, including nbc news, to allow cameras in the courtroom. now in that same order, the judge rejected the news organizations request for the release of the courts audio feet of the hearing. and since 1946, media coverage of criminal proceeding that federal courts have been largely prohibited under the federal rule of criminal procedure. but, if there's ever a time to reevaluate that prohibition, it is now. because a former president, and

a current presidential candidate, is facing 37 federal charges. don't the american people deserve to see the trial, arguing the merits of those charges play out? renowned harvard law professor, laurence tribe, made that case on the show last week. >> the only way the country can be satisfied that justice has been done, that the truth has been exposed, regardless of the verdict, whether it's guilty or not guilty. it's to have the public watch the trial. the chief justice of the united states has an obligation to make it exception through the judicial conference, to the usual blackouts that accompany trials. >> in a new piece, which you can read right now on msnbc.com, i laid out why i believe it is imperative the american people witnessed firsthand, the united states of america versus donald j trump. in judge aileen cannon, the trump appointee, set to oversee the rest of the trial continues to follow standard procedure,

the only accounts that the public will hear, see, and read will be secondhand accounts from reporters, witnesses, and participants. that includes a defendant who has repeatedly demonstrated an inability to tell the truth. since the moment donald trump descended down that escalator in 2015, he has put on a master class in manipulating the media, a lying to the american public, and obfuscating the facts and circumstances around his behavior and actions. now, as a member of the news media myself, i have confidence that those allowed inside the courtroom will try their very best to accurately document the proceedings. but the truth is simple, that is not enough, given this is a -- the severity and gravity of this moment. the trial of donald trump is not only an unprecedented event in u.s. history, it's also a monumental test for our legal system. right now, there's a very real possibility donald trump could be the republican party's nominee in 2024. and there's also a very real possibility that this trial could still be underway on election day.

the american people deserve to see with their own eyes, that trump, in accordance with the law, is given a fair and just trial. they also deserve to know that judge overseeing the trial, is playing by the rules, and not engaging in potentially nefarious political favoritism. and the only way to ensure both, and to protect our democracy in this process, is to be as transparent as possible. like the american people watch, and draw their own conclusions into how this case unfolds. here to discuss this, clint watts former, fbi special agent. leader of the digital threat analysis center at microsoft and msnbc national security analyst. and danny cevallos the, criminal defense attorney and msnbc legal analyst. danny, it's great to have you here on set. let's start with you. the argument that i make is that the american people are entitled to see this trial. the supreme court has ruled in the past that cameras in a courtroom do not affect the due

process rights of the defendants. what do you think? should this trial be televised or not? >> there are two constitutional arguments, i think, for allowing cameras in the courtroom. one is the sixth amendment guarantee to a public trial. and the first amendment, guaranteed to free speech. which you could argue is freedom of the press and a freedom to access these judicial proceedings. but the bottom line is that in all likelihood, unless there's some act of congress, or by the united states supreme court, this is not a case that will be televised. because the federal rules of criminal procedure, row 53, is explicit. thou shalt not put video cameras in federal criminal courtrooms. it strangely enough, civil proceedings in district court have been recorded in about three different jurisdictions, as part of a pilot program that was continued from 2015. but not criminal, that is forbidden. so it's an academic discussion, unless something dramatic happens. either at the very top of the

judiciary, or congress. judge cannon has no power to circumvent rule 53. she must rule consistently with rule 53, and cameras will not be allowed in this courtroom. now, should they be? absolutely. i think that the data or the suggestion that lawyers, for example, will play to the cameras, i don't know if there's any statistical data to that. and the other point there is that what trial lawyer is less emotive because there are cameras or not cameras? if you've ever met a trial lawyer, they are flamboyant. they are showy. it doesn't matter if they are televised or not. they will do it in a coffee shop. they'll do it in a courtroom. >> a press conference on the steps of the courtroom when they walkout. >> it doesn't matter. it's in their blood. it's reptilian. they can't help themselves. >> clint, excuse me, clint, at its core this case deals with classified, highly sensitive information. which is a very important part of this. that can be lost, because even if this was, even in the courtroom now, some of these

documents are not going to be shown to the public who are sitting there. and to the members of the press who will be there. how does that complicate efforts to ensure transparency? could opening up the trial pose a national security risk? >> it definitely could, ayman. there's gonna be a lot of discussions, as you can see from the day men, as it was quite detailed, that about plans that relate to specific countries. as much as they were redacted, anyone can figure out what countries those were, just based on the nature of those documents. some of the discussions over there. there's going to be a lot of worry, and a lot of risk that each of these documents, if discussed in detail, or if brought up even by defense attorneys, that maybe there was some reason they needed to be there. that surrounding discussion of those documents is definitely a national security risk. we know about some of the documents, we definitely don't know about all. so there specific references in their, really trying to prove the point of different classification levels, you can see in terms of the discussion how serious it was. so the prosecutors were, you know, balancing how much do we

reveal in terms of the indictment, to really emphasize how much was a risk? how high of a security clearance was really needed for these documents? at the same time, they're trying to redact as much as possible. they've got a, i think a really tough challenge. how to describe to a jury, this is an extremely dense it of document. there's no reason it should ever be in a, basically in a golf club down in florida. but at the same point, not reveal too much information. they're going to have to walk a very fine line i think. >> danny, who do you think benefits from a more public trial, in a situation like this? the prosecution or the defense? we are not talking about in terms of the legality of the case, or the facts of the case, but just the public perception around it. because as we have seen so far, the prosecution has been very tightlipped. they're trying to be very professional about this. we've only seen jack smith speak once. but donald trump, he speaking every day. he has a bullhorn. he goes out and tries to shake the narrative around this trial, and some are saying that the only way to counter that is to

let the facts inside the courtroom be presented to the american people. >> if this case were televised, this is what the public would see. they would see 90% of the time devoted to the prosecution's case, and probably 10%, maybe up to 20% on the defenses case. most of the time, in federal cases especially, the defense calls very few, sometimes zero witnesses. i've done it several times. rest without calling a single witness. so you think of the, simply the amount of time that will be devoted to the prosecution's case. that is what members of the public will be exposed to. of course, the jury is given and instruction. hey, the mere fact that the defense didn't call any witnesses, you can't hold that against the defense. yeah, but the tv audience sherwood. because they will be on the tail end of, i don't know, weeks and weeks of prosecution, prosecution, prosecution. so if you're looking at it that way, the fact that the government will stick to its typical playbook, which is overwhelmed with evidence, then

it will look very bad for donald trump. but on the other hand, if you are calculating the odds, the odds are, like most federal criminal cases, they will end in a conviction. the odds are this case will end in a vacuum vic shun. so if you figure the odds are against him to begin with, why not go for it? try any defense that the judge allows you to put in, make it as dramatic as you can. keeping in mind, ayman, the odds that donald trump will testify or nail. unless i am missing something. and lest i -- he insists on it, which is a constitutional right to do so. don't rule this out. this is someone that thinks he smarter than the judges and the lawyers. there is a possibility he will testify. but assuming he does not, he could not get into history on it. >> i'll tell you, seeing him in these depositions and other cases, some of the performances he has given, i would not put that guy on the stand. no matter what. clint, i've got to ask you though, about something you know very well. that is disinformation. if people are unable to see what happens inside the courtroom, with their own eyes,

there is the real risk of this information. whether that be from biased media sources, or as we know, a president who cannot help himself and lies all the time. what a threat does that pose to the integrity of the american judicial system, if you have participants like donald trump and his lawyers, come out and it just spew disinformation about what happened inside that courtroom? >> i think the big challenge across all of this, and we've seen this in the last 5 to 6 years, regardless of this case, is that people tend to hear parts of information or bits of information that aren't exactly what happened. they start to -- there's really a demand for that disinformation. people are seeking out that kind of information, because that's what they want to hear. i think that will be a big challenge. and by the way, that challenge could be president if it was televised as well. all you have to do is selection bias. select different bits and parts and pieces.

people can skew it that way as well. so i think the big risk for all of this is look at at what has happened to the fbi, in particular, over the last 5 to 6 years. trust has gone down, in its institution. it's critical for our law enforcement. we need people to provide tips and leads. we need jurors and juries to be able to believe, and what the fbi is bringing in in terms of evidence. we really need to make sure that those institutions, the judicial system, but also the department of justice, the fbi, all of the investigators, that their reputation stay intact. it is critical for the long term of our country. i think it's one of those pillars of democracy that has been eroded. we've got to make sure it stays intact. it's gonna be a significant issue that we get the facts out there. that there's good reporting coming out of that courtroom every day. and that people do have their bearings about what is fact versus fiction. >> i'm going to say, i completely agree with you. and regardless of where you think this trial should be, or should not be televised, we can all agree that truth is

definitely been under attack in this country for the last several years. that is hurting so much of the way we govern our society. clint watts, thank you very much. danny, play stick around. we're gonna talk to a little bit later on in the show. coming up, republican presidential candidates. yep, there are already promising to pardon donald trump. so does that mean they think he's guilty? but first, my friend richard lui if you're with the headlines. >> amen, for good evening to you. president biden, pennsylvania's governor tour the select section of interstate 95 and pennsylvania. afterwards, biden reaffirmed his support for fixing the roadway which collapsed after a gas tanker caught fire there. the governor announced to the highway will and that will reopen in the next two weeks. at least 41 people, most of them students, were killed in a suspected rubble attack on a school in uganda. the militant group also abducted six people as they fled across the border into congo. and here in the united states, an early season heat waves settling in large parts of the south. weather officials issued warnings along the gulf coast. as heat indexes exceeded triple

digits. the high temperatures there come days after severe storms hit the region, including a tornado that killed three in texas. more ayman for you with ayman mohyeldin, right after this break. break. ♪ but now i've found a way that's right for me. ♪ ♪ feels more easy. ♪ ♪ my doc and i agreed. ♪ ♪ i pick the time. ♪ ♪ today's a good day. ♪ ♪ i screened with cologuard and did it my way! ♪ cologuard is a one-of-a kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45 plus at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. ♪ i did it my way! ♪ (vo) consumer reports evaluates vehicles for car shoppers in... reliability, safety, owner satisfaction, ask your provider for cologuard. and road-test evaluations... and the results are in. subaru is the twenty twenty-three best mainstream automotive brand, according to consumer reports. and subaru has seven consumer reports recommended models. solterra, forester, outback, crosstrek,

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xfinity rewards creates experiences big and small, >> if i became president the and once-in-a-lifetime. united states, i think the pardon power, one of the possible reasons for using the pardon powers to heal the country. so, you know, who knows what will happen. he's innocent until proven guilty. he has not been proven guilty.

but certainly if i became president, one thing i would look at as president, is using the pardon power to heal the country. and that, by the way, doesn't go for one party. it goes for both parties. >> all right, so the 2024 gop presidential primary is quickly becoming the pardon primary. that was miami mayor, francis suarez, the latest republican to launch a presidential campaign. speaking with my colleague, -- suarez is part of a growing chorus, maybe a caucus, of republican candidates who have pledged, if elected president, to pardon donald trump if he is convicted in any of the cases that he is facing. this week, nikki haley said that she would be, quote, inclined in favor of a pardon. and vivek ramy swami has gone all in on the pardon pledge, even calling for other presidential hopefuls to make the same commitment. danny cevallos is back with me, also joining the conversation now joe walsh, former republican presidential candidate who has since left the party. and debbie mucosal, former

graham but congresswoman when from the great state of florida. debbie, i'd like to start with you as a former congresswoman from florida. your reaction to the miami mayor's comments there. and now republican presidential candidate, francis suarez, saying the pardon power would heal the country. isn't he essentially green-lighting what many have called a two tier justice system, where trump and other people in power are never held to account? >> good evening, amen. it's really sad to see the desperation coming from all the republican candidates for presidency. who are trying desperately, desperately to win the extreme trump maga base. let's go back to what happened in 1974 when president gerald ford pardoning nixon. that set a precedent that sent a message to the american people that presidents can commit crimes against our nation and still get a parted. i don't think that this is a time in our nation where anyone,

anyone can be doing that. it's going to allow, whether republican or democratic president, to commit crimes against national security. take classified documents. that provided information that compromised the life and well-being of some of our american military members. this is just completely ludicrous, ayman, if anyone wants to heal the nation, i'm calling out to mayor suarez and others that are considering this pardon, to unite against donald trump. who is being convicted with very serious charges. he will probably be sent to jail. that is the way to heal our nation. send the message to the chalk base, that donald trump, and anyone else, is not above the law. here in the united states of america. >> joe, i'm not a politician. but help me understand this. isn't the point of politics to take out your opponent? not to get him off the hook, not to kind of, give him a free pass or a hall pass? i understand you won his voters,

but why in the world would the republican party, certainly the majority, not everyone has, mike pence, asa hutchinson, they've not been on it as quick to jump on the pardon trump bandwagon. but others, they're going all in without even waiting to see how this plays out. and whether or not, maybe he's acquitted. >> it came in, good to be with you. i feel like we are burying the lead. donald trump, in all likelihood, is going to be the nominee of the republican party. think about that. he's been indicted twice. he will be indicted again. he may be indicted two more times. think about that. a person indicted, 3 to 4 times in all likelihood is the clear choice to be the nominee of one of america's two major political parties. ayman, i disagree with debbie in this regard. i don't think desantis or pants, or haley, or scott, i don't think any of them are desperately trying to beat donald trump. i think they are afraid of

donald trump. i don't think they think they can beat donald trump. i think they are hoping and praying that something gets rid of donald trump. either the justice system, or a heart attack, or something. they are just waiting. because they don't want to lose his voters because his voters are the vast majority of voters in that party. >> danny, mike pence, speaking to chuck todd, he said i don't know why some of my competitors in the republican party presume that the president will be found guilty. your thoughts on that, and just generally on this rush to put yourself, or box yourself into this commitment of pardoning the former president? >> people in federal criminal courts are presumed innocent, sort of. but in reality, the statistics are that 90 plus percent are either found guilty, or plead guilty. in fact, 90 plus percent to plead guilty. and those that go to trial, 90 plus percent or found guilty. and a federal sentencing

guidelines are pretty harsh. most people are convicted in federal court are not getting straight probation, but going to prison, or a federal camp. or they're going somewhere for an incarceration sentence. but the pardon power is a strange power. it's in a way, paradoxical. it is a power that we got from the king of west six in the seventh century. alexander hamilton, when he proposed it, george mason at the convention said, listen, is anybody worried that a president might use this corruptly? that he might pardon his cronies. after, what undoing what the doj and the jury has done. it seems a little strange. of course, hamilton's response is, well, if that happens, i guess you can always impeach him. so, now we have the pardon vote. which when you think about it, is a completely new unnecessary powder. it's also the broadest presidential power. it's completely unfettered. don't need the advice and consent of senate. but that's what we've got. that's the constitution we have. it's not going anywhere. >> danny cevallos with the crash history course.

jenny, thanks so much for. that joe and debbie, please stick around. we've got a lot more to discuss. up next, president biden officially kicks off his 2024 presidential campaign. and fortunately, he didn't promise to pardon donald trump. more on what he did say, after this. fter this frustrated by skin tags? dr. scholl's has the breakthrough you've been waiting for. the first fda-cleared at-home skin tag remover clinically proven to remove skin tags safely in as little as one treatment. ♪ these are the people, who help you stay well. ♪

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what are folks 60 and older up to these days? getting inspired! volunteering! playing pickleba...! >> look folks, i've said many

times, wall street didn't build america. you did. you did. not a joke, i've been saying this for a long time. long before i ran for president. the middle class built this country. and you built the middle class. >> president biden held the first major political reality of his reelection campaign in philadelphia today. speaking to a crowd of label union supporters. he turned up his kid shave meds, including creating 13 million new jobs and lowering inflation. but there's a growing problem

for biden's 2024 chances. it's not the republicans. it's the fake centrist group, no labels. which is threatening to run a third party alternative to biden and trump. when we first discuss the groups efforts on the show a couple weeks ago, as democratic and anti trump a officials fear their work could put trump in the white house. now there's new evidence this so-called centrist organization is actually a far-right front. mother jones is davin corn reported that no labels online fundraising platform just happens to also raise funds for, you guessed it, conservatives. quote, whenever a supporter heeds the outfits call for bipartisanship and clicks on its donate button, he or she is putting money in the pocket of a conservative tech firm that is advancing far-right extremism. joe walsh and debbie mucarsel-powell are back with me. joe, i want to start with biden's speech today. it was a tried and true biden strategy. he was speaking in philadelphia, strong labor union base. he was in his home state.

philadelphia was the site of his head campaign headquarters in 2020. but with republicans continuing to up the ante on their far-right rhetoric particularly around trump's rhetoric. is biden playing it to save here? is he going to break through the current noise and chaos? >> ayman, two. thoughts, yeah, i think biden's doing exactly what he's gotta do. focus on pocketbook issues. again, think about where publicans are going to be doing a next 16 to 17 months. talking about trump and his crimes, trump and his trials. then you've got desantis, and all the other republican candidates out there talking about all of these culture war issues. biden needs to stay focused on the economic stuff. the other message, ayman, is look, to democrats and everybody else out there, quit complaining, and quit whining about joe biden. quit saying that joe biden is too old, or he doesn't inspire you. the republican party, my former political party, is trying to end our democracy.

if that doesn't motivate you to get out and do everything you can to help get biden reelected then nothing will. >> gaby, your thoughts on this. i want to be clear, we do recognize the importance of labor unions in this country. but quite honestly, our political climate has changed in recent years. is biden counting on being the boring grandfather that the country realizes it still needs? to just point, he is the safe, steady hand in this race. but is that enough for the moment? >> look, i think that the president should take an opportunity right now to tour the country. when you see him live, when you're able to be in the presidents of joe biden. he's not a grandfather. he has a lot of energy. he's youthful, he is completely committed to the american people. and doing everything he can to bring this nation up. i have to say, when i watch those segments, those videos that you just posted there, ayman. it really gives me so much joy

to see a president kissed his wife, full of love. just see those american workers. these are not paid rally attendees. these are american workers, that truly believe in the presidents agenda. which is to build and strength in the middle class. that is why i think he's going to do really well. like joe said, i think he needs to continue to talk about the economy. he needs to remind americans he has built more than 12 million jobs. many of them, you don't need a college degree. our wages are going. up there are more opportunities for americans. if he continues to do that, and he is president in a lot of these communities, i think it's going to go well for joe biden. >> let me turn to this no labels movement, joe. top democratic strategist and anti trump republicans met last week to discuss how to subvert a no labels as a potential third party bid. the fact that this bipartisan group is already coming together, signals their deep concerns. what are your thoughts on no labels? how do you stop them? can you stop them? do we need a third party in this country? >> not right now.

ayman, we probably need a third party, a fourth party, or fifth party. but again, not right now. look, the most immediate threat to our democracy is donald trump, and my former political party. the only way we defeat them, is one-on-one. that means right now, people ayman, like me, former tea partier, all of us are democrats right now. to help defeat the republican party. so no labels, or any third or fourth or independent effort that the trucks from that one on one is helping donald trump, and they need to be condemned. >> debbie, as david coren reports for mother jones, this week's donations are also helping an unlined fundraising group linked to conservative and religious organizations. and far-right maga republicans. how could no labels claim to be a centrist group when they are lining these folks pockets? is it just about money for this group? >> look, it's so obvious that

there are so many power players behind the scenes, trying to take control of the american nation. they don't want to get that power to the people. they want to make sure that they have a candidate, or someone in the white house, that is going to be doing their bidding. whether it's big oil, or big pharma. and so that doesn't surprise me at all. but have we not learned anything from 2016? we saw what happened. it was because of these green party candidates that hillary clinton lost. look at where we are now. we have a maga movement that has taken over the republican party, if no labels is truly, truly interested in the well-being of this nation, i would suggest that they actually support president biden's agenda. and do the work for the american people. >> all right, panel, please stick around. we are going to come back to you later on in this hour. but first, dr. marci bowers, is a pioneer transgender health care. she'll have us debunk conservative attacks. and also discuss the important of loving your truth exactly as you are. u are. might feel like progress, but with 3x more nicotine than a pack of cigarettes -

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40-year history, the human rights campaign just issued a state of emergency declaration for all queer people living in the united states. this follows what the group calls a, quote, unprecedented and dangerous spike in anti lgbtq legislative assault sweeping state houses this year. according to data from the aclu, state legislators have introduced more than 400 anti lgbtq bills this year. most of them, targeting trans

people in particular. that is more than the number introduced in the previous four years combined. many of these bills claim to protect children by restricting gender-affirming health care for transgender minors. doctor marci bowers, who has spent decades treating chance children says anti-treatment bills only harm them. earlier this year, dr. bauer's role in the new york times, quote, we should instead take anti-transgender legislation for what it is. thinly veiled cruelty towards a specific minority population of the country. these bills are symptoms of a larger problem, where be little bent and bullying are reminders of what many trans people interest children, teenagers, and young adults. doctor bowers joins me now. she's a founder of mount sinai center for transgender medicine and surgery. she currently serves as the president of the world professional association for were transgender health. she's also on the board of the trevor project. dr. bowers it's great to have you with us. thank you so much for making time. conservatives have sharpened their attacks on transgender people, and health care.

one attack is that this world is so new that medical professionals don't understand what they are doing. but just the existence of your decades old organization, and research, seems to debunk that false notion, right? >> well that's absolutely true. we founded the current -- organization in 1979 and it has been a primarily scientific and evidence based organization. that helps to establish safety and treatment guidelines for the treatment of transgender youth and adults. >> you said that you believe lgbtq plus people and their allies should discuss some of the thorny or -- to meet people where they are. expand on that. i know a lot of people have a lot of questions out there, and right now it seems only one side is filling the void, if you will, of information. and they are doing so with

disinformation. >> yeah, thank you. that's absolutely true. the fact is, that there is evidence, and there is good experience. decades of experience. we do know that transgender treatment improves peoples lives. they feel better about themselves, we know that this population is vulnerable to suicidality. and that that number goes down when treatment is accessible. so if you are really talking about protecting children, the one thing you would not want to do is remove their access to medical care, that's what a lot of these bills, they specifically do that. they do so with fear, and with falsehoods. and the fact is the field is new. it is emerging. 80% of the world's recharge it for transgender people has been done in the last ten years. so questions are being answered,

but we do know that treatment is beneficial and improves the lives of those it treats. >> talk to us a little bit about that. studies show gender-affirming therapy has huge benefits for patients, and fewer than 1% of those who received gender-affirming surgeries say they regret their decision to do so. which is a much more lower rate -- plastic surgery or cosmetic surgery. can you talk us through how you talk through people questioning their gender's ernie -- to make sure to the best of your ability that they are making the right decisions for them, especially as children? or miners. >> well, it seems a very daunting process to change, to go -- to change gender's. but the fact is, the unhappiness, or the challenges that people face in arriving at that decision, that is why we need individualized approaches

to each and every patient. not every adolescent is going to confidently be able to make those questions. that is why we haired medical professionals. and we bring parents, doctors, and the individual themselves to make those decisions. so it is a -- any approach, if it's for an adolescent who is presenting, first of all, a comprehensive evaluation is done. before any decisions about medical treatment are done. and so, that's a first and foremost. the second point i want to make is that there is misinformation presented that somehow we are doing surgery on minors, or even children. that simply is not true. there can be rare instances where surgery on an adolescent makes sense. say for example, someone who is binding their breasts and presenting as a male, that the presence of that breast tissue

could be a left threatening issue for that individual. so once again, surgery in that case could actually be life-saving. >> what do you think is the most misunderstood issue in this conversation, that you come across when you are speaking to people, the general public, and they don't understand, or they have questions, or they have concerns? that you find yourself explaining or trying to help them understand, or go through their own process. >> well, i think you brought up the point about regret. somehow people think that a trans feminine person is somehow going to miss their genitals years down the road. that simply is not borne out by any history that any of us in the profession typically see. a knee replacement, for example, something we commonly take for granted, has a 20% regret rate. yet consistently, treatment for

transgender care is that regret rate is much less than 1%. when that is broken down further, we realized that much of that regret is not true regret, or not a failed diagnosis. but actually that individual receiving pressure from outside forces, like their parents, or employers, to change, to end their treatment or stop their treatment. then even then, many of those patients go on to treatment later on. there are instances where people do change their mind, and those are important. those are important to be acknowledged. but that is a very rare phenomenon. and much less than it is in other areas of medicine. but it seems as though conservatives and skeptics have singled out transgender care for exceptionalism, and it is held to a different standard than we do for other areas in medicine. >> we are in the middle of pride month, i think a lot of people that might be watching this want to know how they can

be allies, or how they can lend their voice. there are people who probably just want to ignore this, and say look, it doesn't affect me, it doesn't affect my family or my children. so it's not my problem. what do you say to viewers on either side of this, who are watching this, and wondering how they can be allies to the lgbtq community? >> thank you for the question. i think it just, if you want to be an ally, be open to listening to trans persons themselves. many people feel that they've never met a trans person, and yet, we make up nearly 2% of the population. so we are out here. we are very, gender identity is important. there are some who are skeptical that a transgender individual can make this decision about their identity, when it doesn't match their assignment at birth. but the fact is, that it does

seem to be established very early on. usually before the age of seven. but not in every individual. that is why this, the treatment needs to be individualized. not every protocol belongs to every individual under treatment. so, during pride month, you know, this is a wonderful community, we are creative. we are wonderfully resourceful. we bring love and joy to the lives of the people around us. we deserve access to health care. >> doctor marci bowers, i can't thank you enough for your time this evening. i greatly appreciate your insights and for having this important conversation. after the break, our worst of the week. which gop senator will take the crown. stay with us. stay with us e network she can count on. and now she's got myplan, the game-changing new plan that lets her pick exactly what she wants and save on every perk. sadie is getting her plan ready for a big trip. travel pass, on. nice iphone. cute couple.

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of course, not to be outdone, guess who threw his hat in the ring? senator tommy tuberville of alabama. he is up more than 250 military promotion since march in protest of a pentagon policy that provides paid time off and travel expenses for service members who traveled to receive abortion care. tuberville's actions may leave the marine corps without a senate confirmed later next month. that is a lot of sabotaging for members of a party that so-called claim to revere law enforcement and our military. joe walsh, and demi mccarr sal powell are back with me. all right, i'll start with you, who's your opinion. manse or tuberville? >> our ayman, it's vance all the way. at least with tuberville, he's holding up stuff, because of a policy dispute. we can argue and debate that. but j.d. vance, you nailed him in your open. he's become this -- trump or.

this is all revenge. this is all revenge, because trump is indicted. amen, think about this. donald trump is indicted, and the republicans go after the justice department. it says if donald trump robbed a bank, the republicans would investigate the bank. that's more despicable. >> debbie, who are you going with four worst of the week? ayman please, don't ask me. they are all both equally guilty and terrible. >> that's why we love this subject. it's a tough choice every week. >> i have not voting on this one. i can tell you this. this is a form of obstruction of politicizing the justice department. they are really attacking military families, more than 80,000 women who are service members, who don't have a choice as to where they are stationed. they don't have access to reproductive health care. this is an attack on the women. and i refuse, as a woman, to even discuss this issue about j.d. vance and tuberville. it's ridiculous. it's an insult to public service. >> the thing, joe, is that this is a party that claimed was the

law and order party. they always talked tough about national security. they were always seen the pro military party, if you want to use that for lack of better expression. and now, they are in so many ways, not just anecdotally, like with one or two guys like these folks, but you have people calling for the disbanding of the fbi. a complete overhaul of the justice department. they, as we just mentioned right now, want to block military appointments. so they're undercutting our national security and military preparedness with its leadership. they are, anything, but the law and order party of the national security party. >> exactly. my former political party is a cult. and you cannot claim to be the party of law and order, the rule of law, when the cult leader is a criminal. and i would say, a traitor as well. this is the position they are in. the party is a cult. so they have to defend the cult leader. >> yeah, that's a good point. debbie, when you think about it

from that perspective, you've got republicans accusing president biden and the democrats have weaponized the government. but again, it's always projection with the republicans. they are the ones that are out there weapon is-ing. whether they're going after the manhattan district attorney, as we saw with that stunt that jim jordan pulled off by bringing the committee here to new york city. or, omar, or mccarthy, or as we just saw there, j.d. vance, trying to slow down the doj. >> ayman, every time i listen to these republican speak, and attacked democrats of doing exactly what they are doing, it always reminds me that there is this russian expert that said, to know what the russians are going to do next, just listen to what the they attack their opponents of. that's exactly what republicans are doing now. so, it's dangerous. and really, it's the last line of defense for our democracy, this election in 2024. >> i think jobe framed it up perfectly earlier on in the show, and saying this is the biggest threat to our country. you are all on one side or you

are on the other side. former congresswoman, debbie mucarsel-powell, former congressman joe walsh, thank you to the both of you. greatly appreciate it as always. thank you for making time for us. make sure to come back tomorrow night, nine eastern. right here on msnbc when we take a deep dive into the republican party's authoritarian bargain with donald trump. even his rival presidential opponents won't denounce the now twice impeached, twice indicted ex president. louth ben-ghiat, jordan ruben, barbara mcquade will all be here to explore this trump addiction. and how it is warping our democratic institutions. until then, i'm ayman mohyeldin in new york. have a good night. have a good night. introducing j.p. morgan personal advisors. hey david. connect with an advisor to create your personalized plan. let's find the right investments for your goals okay, great. j.p. morgan wealth management. trelegy for copd. ♪birds flyin' high, you know how i feel.♪ ♪breeze driftin' on by...♪

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