>> that is it for today, i am alicia menendez. thank you for spending part of your saturday with us. be sure to follow the show on twitter, instagram, and tiktok at alicia on msnbc. i'll see you back here tomorrow for more american voices. but for now, i hand it over to my colleague ayman mohyeldin. hello ayman. >> hi alicia, how are you? >> i am well. i am fresh off my visit to the white house. >> i saw that, it's been a very busy week for you. there is a moment there, i was thinking of the split screen. i was thinking, how do we get michael beschloss to speak to mayor suarez, who obviously had no idea that healing the nation by pardoning president trump was a lesson that gerald ford, i think, learned not to do after the fact that he did. >> if you can produce that segment of television, i will be watching with rapt attention. >> maybe not the television, but if we could just convey to him the message that healing

the nation by pardoning a president, who was accused of doing something wrong, is not a good idea. as we learned from gerald ford. >> do you think any of them believe that? or do you think it's just a talking point? >> that's a good question. luckily, i've run out of time. i have to start my show. you can't put me on the spot like that. anyway, great to see you my friend. take care. good evening to you, and welcome to ayman tonight. the backing donald trump, his lies, and false equivalency's about the documents case. -- some insane levels. we are going to help set the record straight. then, ethics outrage, new report on clarence thomas problematic patterns of behavior. and a possible breakthrough in a senate committee's attempts to get answers. plus, democratic pushback. representatives judy chu, and ted lieu, shut down republican defenses of trump's actions. they're gonna join me live to talk about that and more. i'm ayman mohyeldin, in new york, let's get started. ♪ ♪ ♪

tonight, we begin with a new move from the justice department's classified documents case against donald trump. in a motion filed late yesterday, special counsel jack smith requested a protective order that would bar trump and his legal team from publicly discussing sensitive material obtained during the trial's discovery process. now the filing states that the evidence includes quoted information pertaining to ongoing investigations and warns that its disclosure could quote, compromise those investigations and -- identify uncharged individuals. smith's request for trump silence comes as no surprise, considering the fact that the ex president hasn't exactly kept a low profile post arraignment. just hours after he left the courthouse on tuesday, trump blasted the indictment as corrupt and cassatt as a part of a political pursuit designed to destroy him. -- but that bluster really stands in stark contrast to what went down inside the courtroom that day. according to reporters, trump said nothing during tuesday's

proceedings. instead, he sat silently with his arms crossed, while his lawyer entered his plea of not guilty. it seems donald trump, a man who has built an entire political career out of an aversion to silence, and a shameless ability to lie, for now at least, has finally met his match. see, in a courtroom lawyers can't simply make assertions without facts. nor can they actually just talk whenever they want. unlike trump, they can't insist that something is correct, just because they say so. as the atlantic has noted, it is hard to think of something less trumpian than a courtroom. during this trial, trump will be forced to do something he has been avoiding for years, and that is confront reality. the ex president wants you to believe that his political enemies have all gotten off -- for the very same crimes he has been accused of. that is not true. those comparisons won't stand up in court. for starters, trump's repeated

reference to the so-called clinton socks case, which involves bill clinton's own personal records of interviews between him and a biographer, which at one point were kept in a sock drawer, is a desperate attempt to twist the presidential records act. those tapes were clinton's personal property and he had every right to have them in his possession. unlike the sensitive government material that trump took from the white house, including national security or classified material. as for hillary clinton and joe biden, the crucial difference between their handling of classified material and donald trump is his lack of cooperation. according to the indictment, trump allegedly a deceived authorities about the documents in his possession. that's what sets his case apart. both clinton and biden actually worked with investigators. so, here's a comparison that might be more useful for trump. retired air force officer robert bircham who, like the former president was accused in florida of mishandling classified documents and

charged with violating at the very same law that the president, the former president has been accused of violating. birchum, unlike trump, took full responsibility for his actions and expressed remorse. but despite that, he was just sentenced to three years in prison. so, if i was donald trump, i would spend less time talking about bill clinton's sock drawer, and more time building an actual legally sound defense. let's bring in my panel into the conversation. jennifer horn, for new hampshire republican party here. she has since left the gop. dave aronberg, state attorney for palm beach, florida, and jill wine-banks, host of this estate in law podcast. it's great to have you all with us. jill, i'll start with you. what do you make of that motion filed by the special counsel jack smith, and it's reference to material regarding quote, ongoing investigations? >> of course, that raises the probability that jack smith and his team are going to have

additional indictments. whether that is for the january 6th, whether that is just adding additional people to the mar-a-lago documents case, or a third possibility, we don't know. but it is a very interesting addendum to this, and it also is ironic that there are no defenses, basically, to the case that's already been brought. and so, there's always a rule for trial lawyers that if the law is on your side, stress the law. if the facts are on your side, stress the facts. and if neither is on your side, pound the table. and i'm afraid the defense lawyers to the extent that he has any, are going to have to pound the table. because they don't have law or facts on their side. >> jennifer, as the ex president here met his match, so to speak? how does the environment of a courtroom impact the entire basis of his political identity? because in the public, he is

this kind of tough guy. he just lies, he steamrolls over anyone who speaks to him, which is as the atlantic pointed, the exact opposite of what happens in the courtroom, where there are rules. you have to follow them, your arguments have to be fact based. you can't just lie your way through a courtroom, and you can't just yell and shouting your way through an argument. >> right. that's right. so, in that perspective, has he met his match? likely, it sounds like it. right? but remember who donald trump really cares about, and to his audience actually is. that 33 to 54%, the polls change and it depends on who you're looking at that are supporting him no matter what, they are going to back him up and if he's the nominee, even more republicans than that will vote for him, regardless of what happens in the courtroom. and keep in mind that most of his supporters will not be following at day-to-day what is happening in that courtroom. so, he will be quiet while he's

in front of the judge, i assume his attorneys will never let him get on the witness stand. but, when he leaves the courtroom, he will have a lot to say. and his supporters will believe him, not what they see on msnbc. what's going to matter is how fox news and newsmax and some of these other outlets cover the courtroom. but, for the most poor, his supporters won't be watching. they won't be listening. they'll be waiting until after trump leaves the courtroom each day to see what he has to say. >> yeah. we are going to talk about this later in the show, about but i'm making the case that this particular trial should be televised precisely for that reason. we can talk about that later. but dave, i want to get your thoughts on this. as a lawyer, how difficult must it be to have a client like donald trump? somebody who, as we have learned, does not take counsel very well, doesn't seem to be dealing in facts or reality, and probably above all, won't shut up. won't stay quiet, and just gets himself in trouble, as we even saw in a completely separate

case with the e. jean carroll case, where soon his he lost the defamation lawsuit, gets up the next day, repeat repeats some garbage, and then finds himself again at the center of another defamation trial. >> yeah. ayman, it is so difficult to be donald trump's lawyer. you have to deal with his concert outburst against prosecutors, against judges, and most importantly his admissions which come back to haunt him. tim parlatore resigned from the legal team for certain reasons. he said it was because of boris epshteyn. but i think it had to do with the letter that he wrote to members of congress that said donald trump did not pack the boxes boxes himself, it was staff. donald trump had hands were clean. ? and shortly after trump went on that national town hall and said i packed the boxes myself, i did it, the boxes are mine. this is why lawyers are often bald, because they keep pulling their hair out with clients like this. >> jill, talk to me about trump's comparisons to those

cases involving the clintons and biden, as baseless as they appear on the surface, or they not? is the case of the former air force officer that i mentioned, birchum, is that a more accurate comparison than what we've seen trump try to do? or quite honestly, republicans try to do? anytime you mentioned trump, they say what about the clinton 's? what about burisma? what about joe biden? >> whataboutism is a very weak and illogical defense. and the particular things that he is saying, what about, have no relevance to his case. jack teixeira, the national guardsmen who has recently been indicted, and the lieutenant colonel from florida, those are cases that are much more like his and indicate that he should be, as they have been, punished for what they did. his bet is trump's crimes are far worse than what the others did. motive is not an essential element, and there is no comparison to what bill clinton

had or his personal tape recordings, not a tape of him, the president, saying to a other person, i could have to declassified these as president, but i didn't, and now i can't show you -- russell rustle,, rustle, here's the piece of paper. so, i think you can't compare personal document that the -- it's ironic that the clintons also had a cat named socks. the private servers that hillary clinton used were deemed to not have been intentional, nothing was marked classified, there was no reason for her to have known that they were classified, and they were careful in discussing them to make sure that nothing was revealed. that's how it is. the documents that are in the possession, we're in the garage of the former vice president, are also very different.

again, there is no intent. it wasn't a willful retention. it wasn't obstruction of justice, which is what is involved here. the evidence of obstruction is overwhelming. it's very clearly laid out, and i just wish that all of those people who are -- not listening to us on msnbc, would hear about the tape. would hear about the indictment, what repeat the indictment, would see the pictures that you're showing right now of how he stored these randomly and carelessly. and would substitute his name with hillary clinton's name, you know that they would think that there was a crime. >> oh, yeah. especially if it was her name, not his. so they have to start believing facts. >> and i was going to say to your point really quickly, which is so important, as we keep forgetting, or certainly the people want to ignore the facts keep forgetting -- the fbi actually asked them to hand the documents over. it's not that he had, them the charges were retention and obstruction of justice because

they said to him, look, give the documents back. as mike pence did, he's not being charged when they told him he had classified documents, he handed them over. and it's crazy to see, dave, that republicans are running to trump's defense and making all kinds of excuses. they are saying that although he is charged with the espionage act, he is not actually accused of spying or hurting the united states. that's how low the bar has become for republicans. >> ayman, it's also important to note that donald trump is not being charged with the documents that he kept that he gave back. so, the charges are all of the stuff that he refused to get back. >> right. >> so, that's why they didn't charge mike pence. in the indictment, they let him go, they let him slide on all of the documents he eventually gave back after request, even as delayed as it was. and for those people like lindsey graham who say espionage act is for spies, where did you go to law school? because he obviously did not read the statute. the statute is much broader than spying.

it is the willful retention of documents and it's also the dissemination of the information, which hasn't been charged yet, but that's what where jack smith could eventually charge in new jersey, because that's where the dissemination allegedly occurred. at bedminster. >> yeah, it's a very interesting point. perhaps going back to the first question that we asked about why he is still leaving that door possibly open, about other potential charges against other defendants. jennifer, let's talk about the american people here for a moment. although a motive may not be needed to get a conviction, in this case, will it make a difference for the public's perception of the case? certainly, as we get so close to an election. or their voters out there who have not made up their mind on donald trump, and could potentially be swayed as a result of the outcome of this trial? >> i would suggest that there are very few voters that have not made up their mind about donald trump. you're looking at a republican primary, i'm sure that there

are maybe 25% who are looking at all of the candidates right now still. but, for those again, he's got that 33% that will never, ever leave him. i do, however, think that motive is important. it's not required in the courtroom, and it's certainly not going to be required for most of the people who are going to vote for him anyway. but for the american people and for history, and for looking forward, and how to kind of deal with these people who are so deeply and narcissistic and trying to get into positions of power, i think it's really important that we do sort of try to figure out and understand donald trump's motive. is it strictly this narcissism, where everything that crosses his path is mine, mine, mine? i get to keep it and control it? or did he have other ideas? was he looking at this information, thinking, maybe someday this could be valuable, and i want to have it in my control if it ever is?

and that's pretty disturbing to think about. >> yeah, that is very disturbing. it's a very important point as well. panel, stick around, we've got a lot more to discuss after the break. we're going to continue the conversation, discuss a failed attempt by trump's lawyers to settle this case. stay with us. (smelling) ew. gotta get rid of this. ♪tell me why♪ because it stinks. ♪have you tried downy rinse and refresh♪ it helps remove odors 3x better than detergent alone. it worked guys! ♪yeahhhh♪ downy rinse and refresh. (vo) consumer reports evaluates vehicles for car shoppers in... reliability, safety, owner satisfaction, ♪yeahhhh♪ and road-test evaluations... and the results are in. subaru is the twenty twenty-three best mainstream automotive brand, according to consumer reports. and subaru has seven consumer reports recommended models. solterra, forester, outback, crosstrek, ascent, impreza, and legacy. it's easy to love a brand you can trust.

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and for the next two weeks we are talking a lot about the trump documents case. but after that, we might not

talk about it for a while, because well we'd love to see a trial start sooner than later, there is a much longer behind the scenes process that has to unfold before we can get to that point. in fact, no future court dates have been set for trump. the only date on the schedule as of, now is june 27th. that's when trump's aide, walt nauta, who was charged in the indictment as trump's coconspirator, is scheduled to appear and enter his plea in this case. trump still has to finalize his legal team, he needs a qualified florida lawyer willing to actually join his legal team, and in the days before his arraignment, trump struggled to actually find one, despite the historic nature of the case barring an unforeseen event that federal prosecution of the ex president should play out much like any criminal proceeding. a little slow, and a little boring. jennifer horn, dave ehrenberg, jill wine banks are all still with me. dave, talk to me about the next steps in the classified

documents case. trump entered a plea of not guilty, as i mentioned, the only other upcoming date is june 27th. this is walt nauta, his personal aid that is being charged. he needs to appear in court and enter his plea. but beyond that, it doesn't look to be anything clear on the horizon. do you have any insight or can you lay out for us how this would play out in terms of a timeline? >> we'll, jack smith wants to rush this. he wants this to be done before the 2024 election. it's in trump's interest to delay it. that's the typical litigation tactic, he wants this to go way beyond the election, where he thinks he can pardon himself or get another republican to pardon in and and this whole thing. i think another interesting that happened is tuesday, tuesday is the day that judge cannon has set as the day that trump's lawyers must start to get security clearance to see the documents. that's a pretty quick day, and a pretty quick deadline. so that's encouraging that it looks like this thing is moving along faster than many people

expected. but discovery, when you turn over the information, that takes a while and then there's the fact that a lot of this stuff is classified and there's a whole federal law on that. so i think that's why it's unlikely before -- that this is going to be finished before the election. but jack smith is working as hard as he can to get it done. >> the washington post reported this week that last fall, one of trump's attorneys suggested proposing a settlement over the classified documents case that would preclude charges. this is just one of many instances in which trump's legal team has urged him to cooperate, to avoid possibly in this case, federal criminal indictment that ended up being that 37 counts against him. but it seems that trump wasn't interested in negotiate-ing a settlement. what do you make of that? >> i think it's foolish. he should have followed his lawyer's advice. if you look at the statistics and condition in these kinds of cases, he has a very poor chance of surviving without being found guilty. and, i know he's counting on having one supporter on the jury and it will be a hung jury.

that just means that who gets tried again. so, he should have followed the advice, and he should have pursued a possible plea deal. that's vice president agnew did. he got a deal so that he would have a better outcome, then if he had gone to trial on the bribery charges that he was facing. nixon avoided a trial by having himself be pardoned, but as you noted, ayman, as a result of that, gerald ford did not win reelection. he lost. and one of the largest reasons was because he did not serve the american public's interest, by giving a pardon. so all of the republican candidates who are now saying, i would pardon him, watch out. that's how you lose an election, and it's not going to help the american people. it's the wrong thing to do. we went to trial much quicker

now, there were classified documents. we indicted in march, we had a verdict on january 1st. and in between, we went to the supreme court in the watergate case. so, it can be done much faster. but, i actually do think that mr. ehrenberg is absolutely correct and that this will be delayed, and will certainly not happen before the primaries, and before that decision is made. probably not even before the election. >> jennifer, joe brings up a really interesting point and not just about the political context here. you have some democrats this week expressing frustration over the silent treatment. -- joe biden hasn't commented on it, and the general messaging has been to kind of refrain from response for the democrats. and there are democrats who think that that's kind of a malpractice. do you envision that 2024 race coming down as the kind of, not the trial verdict, but the american public verdict on whether or not they will --

want to go can. because trump is going to say, hey, i'm running for my life, you have to save me. and as we are seeing right now, the primaries, all the talk of pardons coming up from republicans, he may very well frame that anyone who votes for republicans has to pardon him. and so, are americans going to think this is the only way? either to convict a donald trump, or not? >> i think to your earlier point that there is a strategic error here. but i think it's on the part of donald trump, frankly. i actually think president biden is being smart in not engaging. this story is going to exist throughout the entire election cycle. so, i think it's smart for him to kind of keep an arms length on it for the time being. lets it kind of organically unfolds, and see where it goes and let some other people be the voice, the anti trump voice out of the party. i think the president is smart

to kind of keep a little distance from that at the moment. but i think it will come down for a lot of american voters for sure, but within the party, i think that strategically, trump should have taken ideal. he should have worked out a deal, because then he could go out to all of those primary voters and say this is what i had to do to be able to get out here to campaign, and he could tell any lie he wanted to about the documents, about the deal, about anything else, and his supporters would have believed him. it would have put him in a much stronger position to be able to come out there and say, when the next one comes along, when the next indictment comes along, he'll say see, they couldn't get me on the documents. now they're trying to get me on this january 6th stuff. and his most successful messaging so far as a candidate has been, they're coming after

me because they want to come after you. i'm standing between you and the bad guys in the government. so i think trump made a real strategic a roar in not taking a deal when he had the chance. >> jennifer horn, jill wayne banks, this was an absolutely fascinating conversation. i appreciate your time with us. thank you. the supreme court's decision is in full swing. we're gonna break down the major decisions still to come. stay with us. ♪ ♪ ♪ just by switching. ooooh, let me put a reminder on my phone. on the top of the pile! oh. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ (wheezing) asthma isn't pretty. it's the moment when you realize that a good day... is about to become a bad one. but then, i remembered that the world is so much bigger than that, with trelegy. because one dose a day helps keep my asthma symptoms under control. and with 3 medicines in 1 inhaler,

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disclose at the supreme court level. was he in violation of any law you think applies? >> the -- of his actual travel to the location, on the private jet. the travel on the boats, especially because that travel as we understand it, was funded by a private company, and not actually the hospitality of mr. crow. needed to be disclosed, and was

a violation of federal law. >> that was the executive vice president of citizens for responsibility, and ethics and washington. speaking as clear as day. testifying before the senate judiciary committee. the panel had been looking into justice terrence ethical -- and just this month we saw that he asked for more time following annual disclosure following months of him neglecting to pass deals with a gm mega owner. it's a first time with the court, with more americans than ever. questioning the legitimacy of the information. we are waiting for the legitimate things from the justices. gay rights, affirmative action, a whole lot more. joining me now are mark joseph, senior writer at slate. and joe anderson, host of the slow burn, becoming justice thomas's podcast.

i encourage everyone to listen to that. joel, i will start with you because as you mentioned, the slow burn podcast, you are investigating clarence thomas, where he came from, how he rose to power, how he essentially became the man we all have known. you even interviewed his mother in his childhood home and she's been the subject of intense scrutiny. what did you learn, and how did you think that applies to the current scandals that he's embroiled in? >> well, i think as much as anything, it's kind of surprising how wide open the home is. i think that because they're not very concerned about what's going on there or who owns the home, because i was able to walk up to the home, i literally hope -- and as i'm walking to the front door i'm, like is this going to be secret service or some sort of security that's going to prevent me from getting in? but no, i was able to get right on the porch, knock on the front door, and walk right in the house.

>> you would think a supreme court justice is either going to have a lot more security or a lot more of a lockdown childhood property, but that's not the case. and to connect it to the scandals, i think it's because they've just not been concerned about whether anybody has been keeping tabs on them, they've just sort of operated in plain sight for so long that they've sort of taking it for granted that people might ever take interest in what's going on at that house. >> i don't want to give away too much of the podcast, but what did you take away from the time with clarence thomas's mother? >> this is going to sound a little strange, but as somebody that sort of grew up, not knowing a lot about his background story up until now. i thought he was just a creation of white institutions, yale law school, the republican party, various gop funders. but he's still very much connected to the black community that he grew up in in savannah. his family is still there, a lot of his friends are still there, a lot of his college friends are all from the same

places and have similar backgrounds. and that's not something that i expected. he's very much a part of the black community of savannah and all around. he has a lot of black friends, people that you would not expect to support him. >> mark, the actions of clarence thomas and two out lesser extent samuel lead us seemed to demonstrate the belief that they are above the law, or at least above reproach. and certainly being questioned or asked about their behavior. but that's kind of the way the supreme court is designed. we know very little about these justices, privacy is baked into the equation for good or for bad, but as we're learning, that seems to be more for bad. >> yeah. it's a very clear that the courts believe it is not just a separate branch of government, but in many ways, above the other branches, and that it is not at all obligated to answer to congress or the executive, even when there are serious charges of ethical misconduct or breaking the law in the case of clarence thomas. alito and thomas both requested extensions, for violating their

latest disclosure reports. i think it's notable that both men are very stingy when it comes to death row inmates who need extensions to seek some kind of relief in court for themselves, they are happy to rundown the clock for as long as possible. but i think those two really capture the spirit of the institution, as not just insular, but almost paranoid about any kind of public attention. very much eager to avoid prying eyes. and rather -- in taking the position that nobody, whether it's the public or members of congress, has any right to actually probe their actions or conduct, and see whether it follows a baseline standards of ethics. >> mark, last week i was certainly shocked when justice roberts and kavanaugh sided with the liberals on the bench to effectively see parts of the voting rights act.

you follow the court a lot closer than i do, you listen to all of it and the hearings. the cases that haven't been decided yet, do you think that we might find other pleasant surprises in these rulings? >> i would love to be surprised, but i am very skeptical. the two big surprises so far were the voting rights -- and the case upholding the indian child welfare act protecting native children. and one of the things that connects those two cases is that the loitering was really terrible for the conservative side. so, in one case, alabama's attorney general and the other texas attorney general put forth really sloppy arguments that basically acted as though the court was already in their pocket. they didn't need to worry about presenting a really persuasive case to the justices, and that clearly offended several of them. not just kavanaugh, but also barrett in the most recent decision. and that doesn't carry through

for the next two cases. these have all been years and years in the making, whether that's the affirmative action case that was so carefully planted out over the course of decades, frankly, or the major gay rights case. these are in the hands of very clever lawyers and publicity folks, and political relations people, who know how to make a strong case and make the justices feel like they have really solid grounds. and furthermore, these are passion project for various justices on the right that really want to indicate their long held beliefs that the law must be held far from the center, toward the right. and i do think for that the remainder of the term we will be steering a series of staunchly conservative ruling. >> we will see what happens this week and next. always a pleasure, thank you to the both of you for joining us this evening. taking down the fake gop response to trump's indictment, congressman ted lieu and congresswoman judy chu will join me after the break.

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♪ wayfair, you've got just what i need ♪ >> so, republicans don't know how to defend the new trump indictments. that much is clear, because instead of addressing the merits of the case or even criticizing trump, most of the gop is launching bogus accusations about a supposed to cheered justice system. for example, mike pence, who claims without evidence that hillary clinton got a quote, passed in 2016 for her handling of classified emails. never mind the fact that clinton cooperated with that investigation and as we discussed earlier, the clinton case is nothing like that of donald trump. many republican national security our bernstein and dan sullivan are also paired in that same line. at this point, the kind of what about-ism is almost expected from the gop and nobody seems to care. still, the potential electoral damage that trump could do to the party. nbc news reports this week that republicans are privately

saying that trump's indictment is serious, and could hurt their 2024 chances. but none of them, no one, will actually say that publicly. let's bring in my next guest, both california democrats -- congressman ted lieu sits on the house judiciary committee, and congresswoman judy chu, is a member of the house ways and means committee. it's great to have both of you with us. congresswoman, i'd like to start with you. what do you make of this desperate push from republicans to deflect and use whataboutism to just -- diminish the problems of donald trump? >> the republicans are just hiding behind a talking point. you know, i just read the indictments and after you read it, you cannot come away except with the conclusion that trump was deliberately holding hundreds of classified documents and impeded efforts by the government repeatedly, and also obstructed the fbi by ordering an aide to conceal them. and these were materials that related to american nuclear weapons, defense capabilities of the u.s. and our relations to foreign countries that could

have really jeopardize the safety of the military and human sources. it's so different from biden and pence, trump took 300 documents. biden didn't even know he had the documents, but he had 16 of them. and pence had ten. but they immediately notified the authorities, the intent in the cases of biden and pence and clinton was that they cooperated fully with the national archives and the department of justice. trump deliberately impeded repeatedly with the national archives and the fbi. >> congressman lieu, your reaction to these republicans who are defending trump publicly but are privately saying the indictment is serious. part of me wants to ask, which

i know i shouldn't, you can't be surprised by the fact that what they say privately is different than what they say publicly. >> it's the same lack of courage that we have seen from republicans throughout the years when it comes to donald trump. and what happened here is that a grand jury of regular americans in florida saw the evidence and chose to indict donald trump. he is now entitled to the presumption of innocence, and the prosecution is going to have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury of regular americans that donald trump is guilty. that's the way our criminal justice system works, and we should let our courts and law enforcement do their jobs without political interference. >> congressman, the committee that you sit on, the house judiciary committee that's shared by jim jordan is demanding the justice department provide internal documents laying out the scope of special counsel jack smith's investigation.

since jordan also shares the so-called weaponization of government subcommittee, i assume he will be looking into what appears to be his own weaponization of government, here. >> let me first remind the american people that congressman jim jordan ignored the bipartisan congressional subpoena, and what he is trying to do now is to interfere in an ongoing investigation, an ongoing case. an ongoing prosecution against a defendant who is alleged to have taken america's most sensitive nuclear and military secrets, show them to people, and refused to return them. our justice is simply not going to cooperate with someone who's trying to interfere in an ongoing investigation. >> congresswoman, your committee has some experience in trump's tactics. you are on the ways and means committee, and you work to get access to trump's tax returns. you guys suffered for years

because of these delays, and it gives us a mindset into what he's going to do in this case. we're starting to see that already play out in the documents case. it's what he does, delay delay delay and hope it never catches up to him. >> he used his perch to avoid accountability. in showing his taxes. of course, presidents had been revealing their taxes since nixon, so president trump did not respond to efforts to get his taxes and in fact impeded it, and finally, we were able to utilize the power of the ways and means committee to be able to get them and indeed, there were many questionable items in their. including a lack of proper substantiation for charitable -- and operating losses and potentially disguised --

gift taxes. >> can i ask you both really quickly, separately, congressman i will start with you, would you want to see this trial publicly televised? >> well, i would hope that we could be as transparent as possible. that would be my hope. >> congressman? >> i would support this trial and every trial being accessible, including being televised. i also think supreme court justice proceedings should be accessible to the public and televised as well. >> congressman lieu, congresswoman chu, please stick around. i have a very important conversation i'd like to talk to you about after the break. it is immigrant heritage month, i'd like to get your thoughts on that, stick around. ♪ today, my friend you did it, you did it, you did it... ♪ centrum silver is now clinically shown to support cognitive health in older adults. it's one more step towards taking charge of your health.

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a string of new red state laws targeting these communities. congresswoman judy chu and congressman ted lieu are back with me. this is something very personal for me. i myself am an immigrant, i came to this country with my parents at a young age, and i want to start with you congresswoman blue. -- the anniversary of daca, hundreds of thousands of recipients are still in limbo as they wait a federal court decision about where the pump -- program stands. have you been participating in discussions on the hill about the need for comprehensive immigration reform? is there any progress on not? >> thank you for your question. let me first say what an honor it is to be on the show with you, and also with congresswoman judy chu, who is one of the strongest champions of immigration in congress. i am an immigrant as well, and i fully support the dream act. and if we put that on the florida house, it would pass with bipartisan support. fortunately, speaker mccarthy is unwilling to do that. i also fully support

comprehensive immigration reform. >> congresswoman, ron desantis, it's controversial senate bill is set to go in effect on july 1st. this is no doubt about it, an anti immigration law that will bar undocumented immigrants from using drivers licenses from other states. florida hospitals will also be required to ask for a patient's immigration status. are you at all concerned that we may see copycat laws popping up across the country after this? we see it happen on other issues, whether it's abortion, but we're going to see it in florida. away concern that it is going to pop up elsewhere? >> i'm very concerned about it. there are a speed of state laws that are restricting immigrant rights, and actually, another worrisome one that ron desantis just signed is an alien land law, which says that persons from particular countries, china, venezuela, and cuba cannot buy land in florida. this goes back to the racist alien land laws that were in this country 100 years ago. but can you a match in a real estate agent having to check your immigration papers before they could actually sell you a condo? that's what we're coming down

to. >> it is a very sad trajectory that were on. congressman lieu, we often hear that this country is a melting pot. we certainly want to believe that, but what do you think needs to happen for our collective actions to align with our words? >> let me just share with you a story. last year, i had talked to a ceo in my district. he had a start-up company, he also happened to be an immigrant. he is making a new computer ship that's faster. so at some point i asked him, how much faster is that? and he's bows, 50,000 times. and i was like, whoa. and i was like have, we attract the best and brightest. who wakes up around the world and says hey, i want to go to moscow? but they think of going to the u.s. because we have the rule of law, we have talent, we have resources, and we will allow them to execute our -- and that's going to keep us ahead of our competitors. >> congresswoman, you're the chair of the asian pacific

american caucus. can you talk to us about some of the work that you're doing to advance pro-immigrant legislation, and how should your party be combatting this anti emigrant legislation that we see in places like florida, and certainly this is going to be an issue that dominates in 2024? >> we have a shortage of immigrants in this country, actually, we have this chips and science act. we want to increase the amount of production of semiconductors, but we don't right now have the people in those fields that can occupy the jobs. and even though we put money into stem, we don't have the immediate workers who can do that. and yet, we have people knocking all over our doors from other nations, and people who are educated in this country, who could fill the bill if they're just given their employment visas. so, yes. we have bills. actually, i just went to a dream act bill press conference

for a bill that was just introduced. i'm also just about to introduce my reuniting families act bill, which will address the 4 million people backlog in -- the family, visas and there's 1. 5 visa backlog and for employment visas. so there are things that we can do to fix this problem, and we can move this country forward, if we are able to bring these people in. >> let's hope we can do that in a safe and secure manner for everyone. congressman lieu, congresswoman chu, thank you very much to the both of you for joining us this evening. i really appreciate your time and your insights, as always. stick around, the second hour of a mint begins after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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