>> today on velshi, political screen of president biden hitting the campaign trail like it is a normal election cycle. rallying union supported in philadelphia. speaking not a single word about the legal drama surrounding his chief rival. on the other side, donald trump's legal team strangling to get security clearance so they can properly defend him against a historic 37 count indictment. against a damning in painstaking indictment why it is a lie a distraction and a dangerous sign of what is to come. i will talk about the true threat of a weaponize federal government longtime political strategist peter fan who spent

the post watergate years investigating abuses of power at the highest levels of government as a staffer of the story church committee. among many americans who do not want to see donald trump winning back the white house. for a good number of republicans he would know mostly ones running against and would not even express that sentiment out loud. there is a growing fear of an overly large republican primary field. or a third party spoiler candidate throwing the election to trump. today i gather three republicans who had previously vied for president against donald trump. former congressman joe walsh, former governor bill well and mark stanford will join me to talk it all out. then juneteenth is about -- seeing my interview with the force of nature to dismiss oprah reid the activists who made it. happen if you do not know what juneteenth is all about then you definitely need to see this interview because now more than ever this crucial piece of american history must be taught learned and commemorated. velshi starts now.

good morning to you is john the sunday june 17th. happy sunday. on may 25th 2020 george floyd's three final words become a fixture in history as the weight of minneapolis police officer derek chauvin was actually cutting off his oxygen flow. those three words were i can't breathe. after a two year federal investigation into the minneapolis police department, we know that george floyd's choking death was not an isolated incident. attorney general merrick garland announced on friday, quote, we found numerous instances in which officers responded to a person's statement they could not breathe with a version of you can't breathe, you are talking right now. that is just one of the disturbing anecdotes included in the justice department's findings. in his formal investigation into the minneapolis police department. the doj lodged launched this review in the wake of george floyd's death and the murder conviction of derek chauvin who knelt on floyd's neck and skill. him the 89-page report is

damning and includes the nypd of quote, excessive force and unlawful discrimination in violations of constitutional rights and quote. the report goes on to say that the officers practices change depending on the neighborhoods they found themselves in. and quote pg disproportionately stops black and native american people in patrols differently based on the racial composition of the neighborhood without a legitimate related safety rationale and quote. the justice department also had a council of aggressive and threatening rhetoric from some officers who also had no legitimate or related safety reach reason to engage with communion embers that way. one instant garland-related was notable because of minneapolis's large concentration of people whose families come from somalia. >> after npd officers stopped the car caring for somalia merrick and teens and one officer told the teams quote, do you remember what happened when we killed a bunch of your folk? i am proud of.

that they didn't finish the job over there and if we had you guys would not be over here right now. as everyone no doubt knows this is a reference to the 19 90s raid by american special in mogadishu. >> and in a review of 19 shootings from january 2016 to august of last year, investigators found quote a significant portion of their mom's constitutional uses of deadly force. at times offers a shot at people without determining that there was an immediate threat of harm to the officers or others. and what. in the year since george floyd's death, the city of minneapolis has made a few changes to the standard of policing, including de-escalation training and the banning of neck restraints and no knock warrants. but there is still apparently a lot of work to be done. and that were comes in the form of a consent decree. that is a deal for overhauling the police departments that could be enforced by a court. which is overseen by a federal

judge and an independent monitor, to make sure the agreed upon changes are carried out. according to an attorney general garland the city of minneapolis and npd have signed an agreement in principle with the department of justice that commits the city and the department to working with the doj, the community police officers and other stakeholders. but all the parties involved are still working to negotiate the exact terms for the legally binding consent decree. moving forward the process garland in the justice department recognizing the importance of good policing, and arguing that this agreement is not a form of punishment but of support so that police officers can be successful in their essential profession. joining me now is nikema lavy armstrong sorts attorney and former president of the minneapolis and w acp. she was essentially brave the initial video of george floyd's killing to the attention of minneapolis's police chief in may of 2020. good to see, you thank you for being with us again this morning. >> thank you for having me.

>> i want to get your first reaction to this. this is a long investigation. it has come up with things that will be news to many americans. not to you. >> absolutely not to me. and especially not to black residents and residents of color in the city of minneapolis who have four years been crying out for a government intervention if and for police accountability and for them to do something about a police force that has been out of control for many many years. the abuses of the minneapolis police department have been well documented they are resulted in tens of millions of dollars in lawsuits that have been settled regarding excessive force and other violations. so it is an open secret in minneapolis that the minneapolis police were as horrible as the department of justice. just laying it bare in their report. >> but this department of

justice as it relates to the killing of black people particularly by those in authority or those with power, has been more forward-looking than in the past. is this and who do you believe it is a good solution? a consent decree and basically a department of justice and the court and the independent monitor overseeing the changes that they say the minneapolis police departments continues to need to make? >> that is really our hope. we actually called for the department of justice to intervene and to investigate the minneapolis police department. we started doing this before george floyd was killed. because there had been a series of a gracious incidences with the minneapolis police department where they had killed people such as terrence frank benjamin lamar clark, justine damon. on and on and on they have been killing people and literally been getting away with it. we decided enough was enough. we wanted the justice department to intervene.

however, it is not a panacea to be under a consent decree. because there are some places where a consent decree drags on for years and years. it is incredibly expensive. and there is still no guarantee of the results that we are looking for in terms of a cultural shift within the department. however it is better than what we have now. which is a city governments that has not acted with the sense of urgency. they have not fulfilled their responsibilities with regard to cleaning up the police department. and holding officers accountable and as a matter of fact even as this doj investigation was going on we have still hunted multiple people killed by the minneapolis police department and we have had abused during protests. i was one of the folks who was tear gassed for standing near the precinct. after george floyd was killed. i was part of a lawsuit filed by the aclu and richardson on

behalf of multiple protesters. he experienced abuse of the hands of the npd. these officers could not even control themselves. knowing that they were being investigated by the doj. as well as by the minnesota department of human rights. who released their own schedule report last year about the conduct of npd. >> i want to bring up some of the stuff that was stoking the cops back in 2020. i want to go back to a 2017 comments by president trump. the context here is at the time of george floyd's killing there was a police union president in minneapolis who despite the good intentions of the police chief, in many jurisdictions around the country the police union boss tends to have more sway over the cops. let me just put this in the context of what donald trump said in his speech in 2017 about how police should handle people they encounter. >> when you see these thugs being thrown into the back of a paddywagon, we just see them

throw them in. rough. i said please don't be too nice. like when you guys put somebody in the car and you are protecting their heads when you put their hands don't hits their head and they just kill somebody, don't hit their heads i said you can take the hand away okay? >> that is -- donald trump made that speech surrounded by police officers. and a lot of cops who took license out of that when you hear the recordings of the policing after the death of george floyd the policing of those protests you hear audio of cops who seemed juiced up. they seem jacked up to go looking for people. looking for a fight. >> absolutely they were looking for a fight. and i think that trump unfortunately emboldens a lot of police officers to take liberties with alleged suspects and protesters. literally people who are minding their own business.

which i think is unconscionable. the point for us to remember is that these officers say that they are here to protect and serve but they go through supposedly rigorous training and they gets licenses to do what they do and they are empowered with weapons and their law on their side when they encounter people on the streets. so the deck is already stacked against individuals and then you add to that a lack of appropriate checks and balances. a broken disciplinary system. and a lot of excuses on the part of elected officials who are supposed to hold the officers accountable to do the jobs that they were hired to do on the backs of taxpayers. in minneapolis we have had hundreds of officers who fled the department, claiming that the -- and so it has literally been a

nightmare for the residents of minneapolis. >> good to talk to. again thank you for taking the time to help us through this decision and this investigation. to help our viewers understand what it is about. leigh armstrong is a silver turning former president of the minneapolis naacp. coming up at the top of the hour i'll be joined by the person who pursued the charges against derek chauvin and the other officers involved in george floyd's death. the minnesota attorney general keith ellison. just last month she published a book on ending the cycle of police violence. plus, there are no fewer than a dozen candidates now in the race for the gop nomination for president. do any of them of a fair chance of beating donald trump? or are they running for something else? i will discuss it with three republicans who gave it a shot in 2020. the former congresswoman joe walsh and -- and mark sanford. despite what trump's loyal defenders might say the indictment is not the weaponization of the department of justice. but if republicans are so concerned about the weaponization of the government, maybe they should take a look in the mirror. the mirror.

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ohhh yesss. >> you will need to read the

first few paragraphs of the federal indictment of donald trump to understand a seriousness of the crimes with which he has been accused. there are three details of the kinds of top secrets and intelligence is a kobe fan in the documents that were improperly in trump's possession including information about americas nuclear. weapons paragraph six recounts two incidents where trump's show classified documents to one unauthorized individual. dwayne authorizing the vigil. the provides examples of a trump obstructed justice over the course of the fbi and the grand jury's investigations. those of goes on like that for 49 pages. the evidence included in the indictments came from a variety of sources. there are photos of boxes stored in an secure locations around mar-a-lago including a

bathroom. those are paragraphs 25 and 28 and 30. if you have information for the trump's attorneys referred to as trump attorney number one and we believed to be evan corcoran who is compelled by a judge to testify under the crime fraud exception. see paragraph two for four. that it is a stunning document filled with details and evidence regarding the former president's reckless actions which might have compromise the security of the united states. but ever since it was unsealed awake it has been difficult not impossible to find our public into seriously engaged with the facts of the case as laid out in the indictments. instead, there is an ongoing effort to discredit the department of justice which many republicans baselessly accuse the biden administration of weaponizing the federal government. and that particular, word weaponization, has been repeatedly used by virtually every major republican figure over the past week. the house speaker kevin mccarthy vowed that quote house republicans will hold this brazen weaponization of power accountable. a second in command the house

majority lever leader steve scalise, accused the president of quote, weaponizing his department of justice against his own political rival. in a less direct tweet, republican presidential candidate florida governor ron desantis made a general statement proclaiming quote, the weaponization of federal law enforcement represents a mortal threat to a free society. absent from these tweets however, is any legitimate information about how exactly donald trump's indictment is an example of the weaponization of the federal government. biden had no role in watching the investigation as some have suggested. the case originated in the unlikeliest of places. the national archives and the department which was kept with preserving and government records which does not usually attract much attention, let alone controversy. national archives officials whether ones to refer the matter to the justice department which prompted the fbi to open a criminal investigation. that is confirmed in paragraph 49 and 50. so maybe this is the weaponization of the national

archives. trump's allies like to deflect from direct questions about the former presidents indictment by bringing up the fact that classified documents were also found on biden's properties. except that they conveniently omit that a special prosecutor, robert hur, it is currently leading an investigation into that matter. but if republicans really are concerned about the weaponization of the federal government than they need to look a little closer to home. a few days after he was indicted, for a second time,, trump took to truth social and pose to the knock apps message saying quote, i will appoint a real prosecutor. and quotes. to go after the most corrupt president in the history of the usa. joe biden, the entire biden crime family and all others involved with the destruction of our elections, borders and country itself, and quote, all capital letters. donald trump is yelling the quiet part out loud. it is not all set a surprising the trump's attach the presumption of guilt into the biden prime family. and vows to prosecute them for

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break, the indictment of donald trump has furthered more republican disinformation about the so-called weaponization of government against donald trump. i want to talk about that was peter fan a longtime democratic political strategist who was a congressional staffer for the church committee. the famous church committee which investigated abuses by intelligence agencies in the post watergate era. peter, good to see you again. let's start the conversation a few weeks ago it was like when they, at the restaurant to give

you a taste of something and you want more. so i wanted to call you back to have more of a conversation about it. let's go back to the church committee. i'm hoping that by this point many of my viewers who are familiar with it through memory or have read up on us this is a special senate committee formed in 1975 that investigated decades of abuses by various intelligence agencies in the federal government. republican leaders have likened their efforts to investigate the alleged weaponization of government. they have a subcommittee for it now in the house. they called the new church committee. can you give me a sense of how it is happening today is different than the church committee that you served on? >> it is totally different. completely different. when they passed the resolution to create the church committee in the united states senate, it was 82 to 4. when they passed the resolution to create the jim jordan weaponization committee it was a party line vote of 221 to

211. and so you had nobody partisanship it all. with what we are dealing with today. secondly we were designed to follow the facts. we were looking at what happened and we wanted real reform. based upon the real abuses that we found. what we are seeing now is no reform, and basically a false trumped up of uses. i mean this is part of my upon trumped up but this is night and day compared to what we dealt with before. and we came up with real reforms. we had 800 interviews, 96 people. who came before us and said, here are recommendations. and we adopted practically all of them. so it is a world of difference between today and what was going on back then.

and it is a great new book by new york times reporter jim rice called the last honest man, about frank church. and i are sure viewers to take a look at that because it really covers it into context of today. >> i think it is important. thank you for making that recommendation because i know our readers on the show like to go and do some deeper reading on the matter. republicans, many republicans in the house, if you are in the senate today, but trump in particular, make these references to the deep state. the idea that nefarious forces within the government are pulling the strings of our democratic institutions and specifically targeting republican voters in whatever way possible to make their lives hell. this seems much more like a projection of donald trump and his own complaints than a reality. but i think it is important to talk to a guy like you. because when you win the church committee were doing the work, there were institutions of the state. there were targeting people and we're making the lives hell.

a perfect example is martin luther king, who was actively targeted by herbert hoover at the fbi. jake he would at the fbi, i'm sorry. >> you are right. exactly absolutely. i mean, the point was we were trying to look at problems and correct them. and i am not here to say that there were not problems. at some point within our intelligence agencies today. but jim rising in his book begs the point that that investigation basically ended the move towards deep state. and what we're finding now is we have a former president of the united states who tried to weaponize the department of justice, tried to control it and try to put in jeffrey clark to turn this election around and it was a constitutional election. he is the one in his group and they're the ones that are weaponizing government. you know? they are weaponizing congress not to solely problem but to do it and go after a democrat

politically. that just doesn't make sense. that is not the way democracy works. that's not the way america works. so you know, i think that folks have to kind of get this straight that it is a real proof to looking at a president or a former president of the united states for the washington post says was lying before he was over 30,000 times. what do you expect? and not to do it no. >> it is obviously what is happening is just dangerous that it is. good to see, you my friend. thank you for the book recommendation. his book, i'm gonna read that and then you and i are going to continue to talk about this. peter front is democratic strategist and communications group and former church committee staffer. top aide to frank church. all right, donald trump the twice indicted former president still remains the faraway front runner for the 2024 republican nomination. and among this crowded field of opponents, very few are making efforts to set themselves apart from him. a couple are. coming up next i'll talk to

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get it before it's gone on the subway app. ♪♪ >> more often than not is useful to look at precedent to clean whatever lessons we can from history but in this case there is just not that much material. the 2024 election is shaping up to be unique in part because it will be the first time the day leading candidate is

concurrently facing not one but 71 felony charges. this election is also unusual because trump is part of a very short list of former presidents who have run for non consecutive reelection after leaving office. in 1884 driver cleveland won the presidency when he ran for reelection in 1888. he narrowly lost so we tried again. in 1892 he won. that was the first and last time a president has won a non consecutive term after previously being defeated for reelection. now a few others have tried including theodore roosevelt, who after leaving office voluntarily in 1908 came back to run as a third party candidates which split the republican vote and effectively handed the presidency to the democrat woodrow wilson in 1912. but those are the only two people ever to win any electoral college votes in a non consecutive reelection. bids. what is also unique to this cycle is a highly popular candidate who also happens to be the former president faces such a crowded field of competitors.

since the primary process was overhauled in the 1970s, there are been just a handful of significant challenges to an incumbent republican president. namely reagan's challenge of president gerald ford in 1976, and pat buchanan's run against george h. w. bush in 1992. trump is not the incumbents now but when he was in 2020, he did have three challengers. they are the former massachusetts governor bill well and the former illinois congressman joe walsh, and the former south carolina governor and then u.s. congressman mark sanford. but soon after they declared it became clear that the party already made up its mind. the gop canceled primaries in key states. all but securing the nomination for donald trump. this election cycle the former president is facing at least ten challengers. trump still seems to have a solid hold on his base with multiple recent polls showing his latest indictment had little impact on his favor ability. one might expect that 71 felony cats would be an easy angle by which to take him down.

if the majority of his components are not taking a strong stance against trump. or his alleged felony actions. after a quick break i'm gonna talk to those three who ran against donald trump in 2020. joe walsh, bill well, and mark sanford. how far we take an idea is a question of willpower. because progress... is a matter of character. we're talking about cashbackin. not a game. not a game! we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. we're not talking about practice? we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. not a game! we've been talking about practice for too long.

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this is gonna be the tv debate never happened. before the 2020 election. joining me now are the people who ran against donald trump in 2020. the former republican illinois congressman joe walsh, the former republican governor for massachusetts bill well and the former republican governor from south carolina mike sandy was also a member of congress. i do not mean it in a bad, way i mean that the country would have benefited from the three of you being onstage with donald trump. and debating some real ideas. in 2020. but the party said to you all in very different ways, you are all republicans and you are all conservatives. and the party basically said to all three of you, this is not

going to happen. bill, let me start with you because you were appealing to a group of people who are more familiar to us from the longer term a sort of, conservatives and the older a publican in. used to those republicans. you are appealing to people who thought donald trump was probably an offense to their sensibilities. and was way off track in terms of even conservative and republican politics. tell me about that journey and what a talk to you about what the republican party is now. >> well, the party really dug in for trump in that year. in 1920. so we never got off the ground, really. the three of us. and by the, way fellas, it is a pleasure to be back on the screen with both of you. it was greatly enjoyed are working together for a common cause. these are two quality guys. i think that a couple of big things have been going on. i spent a lot of time in the last few days studying the espionage indictment against

mr. trump. it is hard for me to see how he gets out of. that i think that he looks to my way of thinking, to be sunk as a candidates. that is not a board boiler plate allegation. he did violate the espionage statutes. so it is a day by day almost minute by minute recital of his instructions to the staff and his lawyers. put these in the storage locker, take these out of the storage locker. tell the fbi this. tell the fbi that. and it is abundantly clear that all of the things he was instructing them to say to the fbi and the doj were false. so you know, this is an indictment that kind of if you read the whole thing it kind of proves its own charges. it is not just boiler plate. >> and bill, by the way, the thing i didn't add, you guys all have a lot of experience in other places. but you worked for the department of justice and were also a legal counsel to the house judiciary committee. back in the days when there was bipartisanship, governor stand for let me go to you. you have been a governor and you are also a member of the freedom caucus. in fact the staff of the

freedom caucus stood for back when you were there, it is sort of different than what it is now. right now it seems to be a bodyguards for donald trump. and his cause. whether i really didn't agree with you back in the day. but there was a debate to be had. it discussion to be had. today it is very hard to debate with people who were in the freedom caucus because it does not sound like they're making much sense. >> well i would not agree with that. i mean, i don't know. just -- was a part of that. i was part of that. as you correctly point out, a group of bodyguards for donald trump and his ideas and ideals. but that is not where it started. and the reason i ran and the reason that joe and bill ran as we believe in ideas. and there is a robust set of ideas that makes our democratic process a whole lot stronger. and so, you know i would not attempt to defend the freedom caucus. where they would attempt to

defend was the idea that -- the belief that our country is headed to a financial train wreck. and i thought there might be a worthy debate over the primary if -- on where we are going with the suspension how do we pay for all the stuff. but that was not to be because as you correctly pointed out, state after state after state, i remember sitting in that republican dinner in new hampshire and they said, you're gonna get your time to talk. after everybody but the doctor had spoken, they said that is it, folks. i would go up to the podium chapter was never, say what you said it was going to give a speech. and literally everybody in the world spoke. well no, there were some trump folks in the audience. and we just did not think it would be wise to allow you to speak. it was a weird time in politics. and we urge time. >> and you and governor wells where governors. you've actually worked in a bipartisan environment. you a lot not newbies to politics. you want to get get in there.

were you under any impression they or possibly going to take out donald trump? you want to inject a bit into this conversation, i assume. >> i think we've a problem on spending. i think we're heading towards a crisis. can we have a -- that was it. >> joe walsh, you and i have been on tv for a long time together. we have disagreed actively on tv and on social media together. but it is the point, right? the point was the debates. you also have moved where you are by virtue of or maybe the parties moved away from you, but you have illustrated the fact that this becomes very hard. to take on donald trump in this party amid popularity's which have increased since the indictments. >> oh my gosh, ali, it is so good to be with bill and mark. the three of us if we were to at the head of the dam curve. all these brave republicans now, tim scott and mike pence, desantis they'll laugh to the three of us three or four years ago. look, the republican party canceled 22, 22, primaries and

caucuses against the three of us. we ran because we were passed off. i want to speak for mark and bill, i ran because i was passed off. and what this guy had done to my party. and we spoke out about how outraged we were. but nobody three years ago, ali, wanted to hear that. not chris christie, knowing want to hear that three years ago. >> now they are in the race. i want to come back and talk to you about whether you think that what you three tried to do in that election might happen this time around. stay with us. we're coming right back with these three guys who ran for president. for president. like here. and here. not so much here. if you have chronic kidney disease, farxiga can help you keep living life. ♪ farxiga ♪ and farxiga reduces the risk of kidney failure, which can lead to dialysis.

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who would be president. we are meeting with joe walsh, former republican governors bill wells and mark stanford. let me start with you, governor sanford. the question comes up about this indictment. it is an indictment, not a conviction or even a trial. who knows what will happen with donald trump. and yet of the people running for president, two of them have been pretty clear on the fact that they are going to pardon donald trump. a bunch of them have not really committed to it. to have so they won't. chris christie and asa hutchison. they have suggested that they won't. this is telling because you can dislike donald trump and you can like donald trump. you can think this is what it is. but there has not been a trial and there is not been anything

other than indictments yet. it seems strange to be able to make commitments about pardoning a president when you've not heard the evidence. >> yes. it is indicative of the way people have tried to surrender a vehicle. which is a bit anti trump that is why i'm running against him. but i still wouldn't face him so not gonna do anything to offend his folks. and i think people have been too cute by one half on this. they are waiting to see what compound. that will be a fairly logical time on which to decide without you something or when they do something as president? but again, to derrick's point earlier, for a long time now people have been trying to appeal to his base. i mean it's time they were contorting themselves or twisting themselves into a political pretzel to do so. but that is what we have seen. i'm guessing it will continue to see. >> is there, space governor well? for the conversation that governor sanford wishes happen when you guys weren't a debate about issues? including financial issues?

including budget and spending. the whole thing about this debt ceiling is that it is not a done debate to discuss how much we spend and how much we raise. but that was not the debate we were having. is this going to happen in this election cycle at all? or is this all going to be about trump in trump's indictments and whether you're with him or the organist him? >> i mean let me put it this way. it should happen. however when i said earlier about that indictment, i will remind you that i was ahead of the criminal division of the justice department. and republican integrity section which brought these charges. so i am intimately familiar with their work and their thoroughness. and they are the cream of the cream of the justice department. so i would not take these charges lightly. it is quite clear that mr. trump was ordering people to take things in and out of storage lockers. this is the class of materials which is why it is espionage. and then lie to the fbi in the justice department about it. i mean if i were him i would be hoping that i could get a plea deal the way superlong to is

vice president got for himself. that is about the best i think he can hope for either of these charges. but i totally agree with you that the timing is long past due for a civilized discourse. between the parties. we don't have that now and the parties are just getting more and more up to their fringes. both the visa and the arts. i think we're gonna see of third-party pop-up. whether it is the so-called no labels ticket or an independent third party. we came pretty close in 2016. when governor johnson and i were running and we got one half percent more of the vote. 4 million votes another one and a half percent. we would've had a majority party status for the libertarian party. and you already have your third party on the ballot in 50 states automatically every year. that might be a handy thing to have happen. >> but joe doesn't, what governor was talking about just does not mean that donald trump wins the next election? >> yes. and i love bill well, and if our with bill well right now i give him a big kiss on his forehead.

but right, now damaged, right now it is stop trump and stop this former political party of ours. and that means that for the moment we all have to support the only other game in town. which is the democratic party. look, ali, mark said it. we all ran because we wanted to ease trump. we were long shots, but we attacked trump. we went after trump. these republicans right now, running against trump, they are not trying to beat him. they don't think they can beat him. they are waiting for the justice system to take him out. or a heart attack to take him out. they are tiptoeing around donald trump just positioning themselves. but they are not really running against him. like we did three years ago. >> so governor, stanford if you want to see one day a republican back in the white house, is the answer for the republican party as it stands right now to burn down and a phoenix to rise from the ashes? would you agree with joe the way to do this is to support a democrat right now? and then hope for a republican

party in the future? >> i am probably not there. i think that it to bill's point earlier, you may see there a lot's of organizations, i am told, at every state level in creating a third party apparatus. which is a tough thing to do. but i think that you are gonna see something real on that front. if you see the body trump match up. without the biden trump matchup, i don't think so. but i will say this. i think there is something encouraging in the fact that in all of the polls with new hampshire in south carolina, trump seems to be tapped around 40%. and he is a known commodity and everybody knows about him at this point. he is locked in he does not seem to move much beyond that. which says 60% the republican electorate out there is looking for somebody else. i think that there is voter fatigue based on the event. and what we have seen it with regards to all of the clouds

and smoke that seems to surround on a trump. i think that i don't think he's going to get the nomination, is my personal take. i think he will falter at the end. although he looks strong right now. >> if it is biden and trump, governor will, are you not concerned that a third party candidate or a no labels or whatever it is does have the hand they look to donald trump he becomes next president of the united states? >> i am not concerned because both the major parties here are going from 40% to 30% in terms of approval. where as an independent right off the middle ticket is going from 30% to 40%. they are already very close to having a doable race there. i think that you may very well see a fusion tickets. one seeing one. our and i think they could sweep the table. >> no! no! no. my god, donald trump tried to end our democracy! this is a unique existential

threat. it kind of socks, i think we need reform. i think we need a third party. fourth party. this party. but not now! right now, that guy has to be stopped. >> you heard what i said. i think he stopped himself with what he did on the espionage act. >> i think that every indictment strengthens him, governor. >> governor sanford, these things are interesting. this is going to be a tough one. >> it will be, no doubt, but he is still around 40%. i don't think anything that is going to move his number substantially. i think the republican electorate is looking for somebody other than donald trump. >> so let's just take -- it >> i'm just sick of all this stuff and has gone on with him. and they voted from last time when you talk to him today, they are not voting for him this go around. i don't know what that means an independent party or no republican candidates or republican or democrat. but don't think they're voting for trump this go around. >> for the moment, if we could

not do it as a third candidate, a new like this idea governor well, but let's look at the current republican candidates right. now more make it into the race, some a drop out. is there anybody in that bunch, starting with you governor well. anybody in the bunch who you think will run like you three ran, to actually defeat donald trump and not spend all their nights worrying about whether they are offending some of trump's base, b will actually take him on a policy level, and three can win an election? >> sure. there are plenty of people that could win. i think that mike pence could win. i chose the constitution. that is a good rallying cry. i keep my eye on nikki haley, i think she has a lot of ability. and you know, desantis certainly could win. so there is no shortage of candidates who could go all the way. as to the indictment, the wheels of justice migrants low sometimes, but they do grind. and november 2024 is a long way away. if six months is an eternity in national politics than 17 months is three times

internally. >> joe, you? do you think anyone there can win or should win? >> no. the only two candidates they were taking trump out like we did our christiane isa hutchinson and they have no shot in this party. look. we have to wrap our arms around the fact that the base of this party wants a son of a bit. they want trump or desantis. trump or desantis are the only two people that are even registering in the polls. they are the same thing except trump is a lot better at it. there is no shock -- no shot for anybody else. >> the country is much weaker for not having had the three of you debating during the 2020 presidential race. but you are always welcome here. as you. know joe walsh, for republican congressman from illinois. bill, well former republican of acidosis. mark sanford, four republican governor of south carolina and member of congress. all former presidential candidates. thank you, gentlemen. >> thank you, ali. >> coming up, donald trump's