when he and michelle were little, they begged their mother to tell them the old vietnamese folk tale of the woman in the moon who protects and watches over them. the tale is very real now for michael le. i feel like-- i feel like they're always watching me. and, you know, at the very least, i like to believe that my sister is with my mom finally and that they're together. you know, it's not my time yet, but i just can't wait to see them again. [music playing] this sunday, former vice president mike pence responds to the federal indictment of donald trump. this sunday, former vice

president mike pence responds to the federal indictment of donald trump. >> i don't know why some of my competitors in the republican primary presume the president will be found guilty all we know is what the president has been accused of in the indictment. been >> if you were president biden would you pardon him right now >> think this whole matter is incredibly divisive for the country. divisive for the country. >> as he launches his own run for the white house, he explains how he differs from his former running mate >> h >> as he launches his own run for the white house, he explains where he differs with his former running mate >> in 2016 donald trump promised to govern as a conservative, but he makes no such promise today >> his criticism in how trump would lead on the world stage. >> my former running mate has seen war raging in eastern europe is signaling an ambiguous message, not even able to say he would prefer to win war in ukraine. >> and now he thinks he can build support for his own campaign . >> who is a pence supporter, and how does it differentiate from a trump supporter?

>> i know the people in our movement. >> mike pence making history as the first former vice president to ever directly challenge his "new york time running mate in a primary. joining me for insight and analysis are nbc news senior washington correspondent hallie jackson. new york times chief white house correspondent peter baker, kimberly atkins stohr, senior opinion writer for the boston globe and stephen hayes. editor of ""the dispatch." welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." e longest television history, this i >> announcer: from nbc news in washington, the longest running show in television history, this is "meet the press" with chuck todd good sunday morning and a happy father's day to all of the dads out there as one former prosecutor put it pretty bluntly this week, two years from now, donald trump could be in prison or he could be president with trump holding a commanding lead over the republican field this week, his opponents face the question that will dominate this race over the next six months will they, can they, and shoul they go after the former president over his federal indictment and trump's legal

issues that are likely to come first, let's tackle the will they clearly it would be the best way for any republican candidate noh named trump to get some attention, and so far the most direct criticism has come from chris christie and asa hutchinson hutchinson called on trump to drop out of the race after the indictment to say it's simply wrong to be discussing a pardon and christie said the conduct in the indictment is awful. as trump appeared in a florida courtroom, even opponents who have criticized the charges as serious and donald trump's behavior as reckless have diminished that very criticism of trump with attacks against the justice department for bringing the charges against him in the first place, and before the case was even tried, they've been leaving to a promise of a pardon on january 20 >> this is my commitment on january 20, 2025, if i'm elected the next u.s. president,

to pardon donald j. trump. >> i think it would be terrible for the country to have a former president in prison for years because of a documents case, so i would be inclined in favor of a pardon, but i think it's really premature at this point when he's not even been convicted. >> we will clean house at fbi justice and we do a lot, and part of it is using the article ii powers to address wrongs, including potentially pardons. if there was a different standard wield be very inclined to bring clemency in those situations. >> let's tackle part two in this situation, can they go after him on this. in a quinnipiac poll, trump leads and garners 53% of the vote, so over a majority and in an nbc/marist poll, while those continue he should be running for president, a whopping 83% believe he should keep running only 13% of republicans believe that trump has even done anything illegal changing those voters' minds in a conservative media ecosystem that at least for now plans to defend trump under any

circumstances will be an uphill battle final part of this question, should they go after him one candidate who has a pretty explicit take on the seriousness of protecting classified information regardless of someone's money or position was candidate donald trump in 2016 >> in my administration i'm going to enforce all laws concerning the protection of classified information no one will be above the law we can't have someone in the oval office who doesn't understand the meaning of the word "confidential" or "classified. one of the first things we must do is to enforce all classification rules and to enforce all laws relating to the handling of classified information. >> perhaps that applies to thee and not to me in that case that was 2016, and his opponent

was hillary clinton. now, as one republican strategist put it, if you aren't willing to criticize trump, ask yourself why you're running to defeat him the question for donald trump's opponents is what kind of party are they running to lead on friday i sat down in huntsville, alabama, with trump's longtime running mate, vice president pence, who is challenging him for the nomination, and i began by asking him about trump's indictment this week >> you think if these allegations are true, does h deserve to be convicted? >> first, moments like this, it's important for leaders in this country and those of us who aspire to leadership to return to first principles. the first principle is no one is above the law. the second principle is that every american is entitled to a presumption of innocence now, i've read the indictment in detail >> yeah. >> and the allegations in the indictment are serious, and i can't defend what is alleged, but the former president deserves his day in court. he deserves the opportunity to

make his defense in a court of law, and so i want to reserve judgment about this until he's had an opportunity to take his case into the courtroom and take his case to the american people. i will never diminish the importance of protecting our nation's secrets particularly those that bear upon our national security i have a son in the marine corps, and i have a son-in-law in the united states navy. we've got to ensure thatake surd classified materials, especially those that have been alleged in this indictment that bear upon our national security, are protected and secured, but that being said, we've gone through years, chuck >> during the 2016 campaign you said what hillary clinton did with the server and the mishandling of classified documents in october of 2016 you said it disqualified her to be commander in chief does this disqualify donald trump to be commander in chief >> well, i stand by that view.

it's one more example of a two-tiered justice system thatea two-year justice syste we've been living through for - >> it was by a seven years. after seeing hillary clinton being given a pass -- >> by your justice department. >> no, no, no. jeff sessions had another u.s. attorney looking into it and didn't bring charges this was a republican justice department >> this was james comey in the run-up to the election, chuck, you know that. i'm not giving you a lesson on history. >> i understand that >> hillary clinton was given a pass and then we went two and a half years through a russia investigation that we now know from the durham report should have never begun >> actually there was an inspector general involved who said there was a reason to explore this >> there was no political investigation. >> chuck, the independent counsel found that the investigation into the russia collusion should never have bee

years of a init yated, and yet we lived through two and a half years of a constant barrage on your network, on the cable network associated with you and many of the other mainstream media suggesting that there was russian collusion. collusion and other official we had public officials that have said there was evidence of collusion. never happened then i thought it was disgraceful the way big media and big tech essentially colluded to suppress the story of the hunter biden laptop in the run-up to the 2020 campaign when the fbi actually had the laptop and knew it was legitimate look, it's hard for me to believe that politics didn't play some role in the unprecedented decision to bring an indictment against the former president of the united states -- >> let me flip it and state it another way. let me flip it i understand you take it seriously. >> no one is above the law -- >> you believe there's politics that influenced this decision. what should the justice department supposed to do? should they not have charged him

because he's an active candidate for president? even in the face of the serious allegations? should they not have brought charges? >> as i said in the run-up to this indictment, i had hoped that the department of justice would see its way clear to resolve this issue short of criminal charges. >> is that on the justice department or on the former president? i mean, he didn't respond to a subpoena he didn't respond to requests. as bill barr said, he brought this on himself. >> chuck, i understand what's been reported in the news. we'll see what comes out in evidence in a court of law, but look, i want to say to you that i had hoped for several reasons that the department of justice would have done otherwise because it's, as we have seen in the last week, this has only served to further divide our divided politics, and i have to tell you as someone who has represented the united states on the world stage and someone who is on the international relations committee for ten

years, we're the gold standard of justice in the world, and to see a former president of the united states be subject to an indictment by the administration of the current president, that he may well be facing again in the future, that sends a terrible message to the wilder world where you flow are many third world countries around the world where that pattern is very common evidence of a former president commits a crime and you don't charge >> flip the script flip the script. imagine deciding that yo have evidence, that a former president commits a crime and you don't charge that could be just as damaging to our gold standard rule of law example. >> think the proper president right now because we have an indictment, and as i said, the allegations are serious, and the proper approach now is for equal treatment under the law.der the.

the department of the department of justice, i would like to sebring equal vigor in the investigation into the allegations around hunter biden. >> how do you know that they're not -- >> the investigations are swirling around hunter biden >> how do you know that they're not doing that right now >> i want to see them come forward. >> there's a u.s. attorney general that's been looking into this for quite some time. >> there's equal treatment under the law and frankly, the fact that president biden was found to have had classified documents dating all of the way back, not just to his years as vice president, but to his years in the united states senate, i would like to see the department of justice moving forward vigorously >> they appointed a special counsel. >> that's equal treatment under the law. >> so you approve of what guy lard did by having a special counsel look into it >> we'll see what happens, chuck. >> give me your definition of equal treatment. >> so far the former president has been -- >> there's a difference between equal treatment or equal outcome. are you looking for equal outcome or equal treatment

do you get my point? >> i get your point, and i think i'm being very clear on this i think the american people would like to see evidence that we don't have a two-tiered system of justice. seven years, it appears as though -- as though democrats du get one level of treatment, and republicans, especially those of us in the trump administration, get another. >> mr. vice president, if you bring in -- >> and you want to see action by the department of justice that proves to them or starts to prove to them that that's not the case because i've got to tell you >> does our justice department politicize things against the democrats? is that your allegation that in the seven years, that th justice department that was run by former republican senator jeff sessions and two-time attorney general bill barr was politicizing the justice department in favor of democrats? >> what i'm saying to you is that we now know that the russia collusion investigation should have never been begun.

two and a half years put the country through -- >> the inspector general never said that. >> in the days following that, under the two years under the biden administration, we've never seen the justice department targeting parents going to school back court meetings we've seen the justice department targeting pro-life activists, and i have to tell you, chuck, i'm still waiting for the rash of prosecutionsm rm the summer of 2020 people involved in the blm riots from the summer of 2020. i mean, where -- where is the equal treatment under the law as evidence of the fact that the people are being brought into court, being held for having caused billions of dollars in damage and hundreds of riots throughout the summer of 2020. look, clearly the american people -- or not -- or i would tell you among republicans, the vast majority of republicans have lot confidence in the department of justice, and if

i'm elected president of the united states, i've said on day one we're going to clean house at the highest levels of the department of justice. >> you're talking about firing christopher wray on day one. >> who are respected on both sides of the aisle >> christopher wray is a trump appointee. what make him a person that runs a politicized fbi? i mean, this is where i understand the accusation, but the facts don't feel like they fit the accusation >> all i'm telling you is the reality today, and i -- look, i appreciate the service of even serving on the top floor of the department of justice, but they've lost the confidence of the majority of the american people >> you have been asked a few times whether you would pardon the former president if he's convicted if you were the president. would you? >> i just think the question is premature. honestly, chuck, i've pardoned

people who were found guilty of. a crime. >> what was your bar for a pardon >> let me say first and foremost, i don't know why some of my competitors in the republican primary presume the president will be found guilty look, all we know is what the president has been accused of in the indictment we don't know what his defense is we don't know if this will even go to trial. it could be subject to a motion to dismiss motion of dismiss. we don't we don't know what the verdict will be of the jury. we don't know the result of an appeal i think, look, the president of the united states takes an oath to support and defend the constitution of the united states, and as i said in my announcement, i'll always choose the constitution, but the oath of the president also requires to see that the laws are faithfully executed and that means respecting the article 3

courts in this country i think we ought to let the courts do their job and let this casework its way through our judicial system, and i if have the great privilege of but president of the united states, as i did when i was governor, we would have valued any request for pardon for any american -- >> if you were president biden would you pardon him right now >> i just think this whole matter is incredibly divisive for the country, and look, i -- i just think at the end of theg in thi day it's -- it is -- it is saddening to me that we are now in this moment for two reasonsrs tsunami ber one, incredibly prou record of the trump/pence administration some number one, president trump was my best friend

>> you said it in past tense >> well, we worked together very closely for four years i'm incredibly proud of the record of the trump-pence administration, and some in this primary have taken to criticizing the record of our administration and i'm proud of trum everything we accomplished for the american people. we left america stronger and more prosperous than ever before obviously, as you and i talked in great detail, it did not end well in my announcement speech the american people need to know that on the tragic day of january 6th, president trump asked me to choose him over the constitution, and i chose the constitution, and i always will. i had no right to overturn the election. >> isn't this your way of saying he's not qualified to be president because he did not -- because, to put it in somebody else's word -- i think it was liz cheney -- you have to choose between the constitution and supporting him you chose the constitution is that what he's demanding? >> president trump was wrong then and he's wrong now. he's continued to say that i had the right to overturn the election i had no right to overturn the election, and kamala harris will

have no right to overturn the election when we beat her in 2024 the role of the president and the role of the vice president that day is to open and count electoral votes, no more and no less, and i will always believ by god's grace that i did my duty that day, and with regard with going forward, i'm rung for president of the united states because i believe our party and our country need new leadership. >> when we come back, donald trump made history as the first former president ever to face federal criminal charges why are so many of his republican rivals running to defend him the panel is next.

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welcome back the panel is here. nbc senior washington correspondent hallie jackson hae peter baker, stephen hayes, and editor of ""the dispatch," and kimberly atkins stohr, senior opinion writer for the boston globe. will they, can they, should

they, hallie the president's defenders were out. here is how the defense of the indictment began this week >> was it a good picture to have boxes in a garage that opens up all of the time? a bathroom door locks. >> there are 33 bathrooms at mar-a-lago so don't act like ra that the gu it's in some random bathroom that the guests can go into. >> he is not a spy he is overcharged. did he do things wrong yes, he may have he will be tried about that. >> where are we? okay. will they, can >> okay. will they, can they, should they the people that you saw of course will back donald trump and they're some of his most loyal allies and that fits a piece of where we are right now. will they, can they, should they will they? i will tell you not for a long while, and that's a quote that i heard from a member of a rival campaign, and donald trump going up in this election and based on my reporting to try to take him on and to pull the knives out right now for a number of

reasons, and they say that's just not where the voters are, and that's where out and you'll have the nikki r primary ele electorate is, and numbers at the top of the segment show them that and that is backed up by fax and voters don't necessarily know that, and you'll have asa hutchinson come out and you'll have nikki haley, and on the one hand she'd consider pardoning him, et cetera can they they can, and should they? that's an assessment that each of these campaigns will have to come up for for themselves. >> peter baker, the field is split on the pardoning of trump here and here are those for pardoning him, nikki haley and you can use the word inclined in favor of a pardon and vivek ramaswamy, he held up the ramaswamy, he is making it part of his main campaign, and he held up the paper as his commitment to pardon him governor desantis, very inclined to grant clemency as he talked about it tim scott is not ready to discuss hypotheticals. chris christie implying that if it was a fair trial he wouldn't pardon him and it's wrong.

trump is blocking out the sun, so if you don't take him on in the indictments, you're not going to get any coverage. >> no. that's exactly right he is the all-consuming part of the republican party we're not having votes yet, so maybe if you'll take the eyes out rather than make a target for him for the next three, four or five months and they're waiting for trump to be himself and right now none of them can beat him four or five months and they're so they're waiting to -- >> that worked well in '15 and '16. >> they didn't have prosecutors in 2015 and 2016 maybe this will be different this is not the end of the criminal justice system's handling of donald trump there may be a third or a fourth indictment at some point, the calculation is does that begin to weigh him down? >> are we seeing the fifth avenue moment come to life >> this is it and the fifth avenue indictment, and i think that's what we're looking at i take the point that these campaigns are making him that they might not go after him right now and it may be too early, but come on he's the front-runner.

if you don't make this argument, you're never going to convince voters that they should back away from donald trump, and there's this misperception among the republican rank and file-that none of the republicans in washington and none of the candidates opposing him actually think this is serious and are concerned about this when in bad. reality we all know we're having conversations and they're saying to us, privately, in is bad. >> and the indictment is worse than we thought. >> this is bad he's on tape, basically admitting it and this is what you hear from republicans privately and they say in public, i'm concerned about hillary clinton and the justice department >> how deep of a hole can they dig, though? >> as you said, this is only going to get worse, if there are indictments out of georgia geor. already the indictment out of new york and these are things they can't even pardon and already the indictment out of new york and these are things they can't even pardon and they can't use that argument and as things get progressively and progressively worse where can republican house members go past once you put a lock on the

bathroom door, it's eventually a skiff. it's the same thing. they've reached such a low point, how much further can they dig? it will do long-term damage. >> let me bring up a concern some democrats are having as the white house being too quiet about this and we've had some reporting over the weekend, kimberly, one anonymous staffer, to let them dominate to fill in the blanks here. biden should be hitting them hard and i don't think it's important to say nothing and another aide, we're allowing him to fight on his own turf we've said this before he fills the vacuum. this happened with mueller he never said a word and never defended his work. jack smith doesn't -- you know, it's because it would be inappropriate to do so, and trump uses those norms to his advantage. but should biten's folks, should democrats be leaning in more >> here biden's in a world position, right, because he's in two reels. one, he's the president of the united states, and he's absolutely right n that role the

president duld noes not have any power and should not have an power to influence the justice department and he's the presumptive nominee and donald trump is his opponent and is an electability issue, you bet it is he has to find a way to talk about the rule of law and explain why it is so important and someone who absolutely flouts he is unfit for office and while at the same time keeping his hand as commander in chief. >> i think they'd like to run against donald trump they don't want to do it now important. there are some real concerns that republicans raise that are more than just about the what-aboutism abou how the justice department has conducted itself particularly during the trump administration. there are legitimate concerns that the republicans can point to i think there are things that republicans make about the non-prosecution of hillary clinton and those are fair points if democrats were to pile on now in a public way and joe biden especially and any go after trump on this indictment, they

would just be validating all of those concerns from the republicans. >> joe biden -- i can't republicans are sticking -- >> that was the tiptoe >> it was like the float, if you will i think this conversation, though, is bringing us back to where we started this discussion which is half of republicans don't believe the justice department is a fair institution.is half of republic don't believe the justice department is a fair institution. half just don't think that the doj or the fbi is half just don't think that the doj or the fbi is worthy of their favorability, if you will. that is a huge and a bigger macro issue playing out of the course over the next multiple years for a party that as you know has long been built on this idea of law and order, and the shift away from that is really interesting. >> it does beg the question, what's worse, bringing this charge and not getting a conviction or bringing this charge and getting a conviction and it feels like nothing. feels >> you asked the question,

right? what if you had this set of facts and you don't bring charges. is there, in fact, a get out of jail free card and you can do anything you want and no one would hold you accountable. >> just as you hang over the illusion and start violence. >> when we come back, more of my interview with mike pence on why he's challenging his former running mate. interview with mike pence on why he' >> in 2016, donald trump promised to govern as a conservative, but he makes no such promise today

welcome back former vice president mike pence loyally served trump for four years is now making the case for running against him in our sitdown i asked mike pence why he is challenging his former boss now making the case for running against him in our sitdown i >> would you be running against donald trump if january -- if he did not ask you to violate your oath had he accepted the results of the election and now he's running again without that, would you still be challenging him? >> i -- i would leave that to historians to speculate, chuck

i would tell you at the end of the day he did, and i always hoped he would come around on this as i said recently - >> sounds like, had he come around you might not be running. >> look, no. let me explain to you. i had always hoped he'd come around on this issue -- >> yeah. >> -- because i -- no one who puts himself over the constitution should ever be president of the united states, and i had hoped that president trump would eventually see that he'd been misled by the so-called legal experts that had advised him wrongly about the role that he thought i had and city thinks i had that day, but, also, i would honestly tell you, chuck, we have other differences

about that day i spoke about it in my announcement speech and it's not just looking at the past, but it's the direction of the country and the direction of the republican party in the future i'm pro-life i don't apologize for it, but after leading the most pro-life administration in american history, and now my former running mate has taken to calling some pro-life bills at the state level too harsh. >> he called the six-week bill in florida too harsh, and you disagree with him independent. >> i do. he also blamed electoral losses in 2022 on overturning roe versus wade. i think the cause of life has been the animating force of the conservative movement and -- >> what do you think 2022 was about? was it more about donald trump or more about abortion >> chuck, look, candidates had focused on the future. candidates have focused on the challenges facing the american people in 2022, and did very well candidates that were focused on the past were focused on relitigating the past did not do well even when we should that's not the only differences on the right to life two other issues they spoke about in my announcement, an

i remember you saying a few weeks back that you always pay attention to announcements. >> i do. because you know that the candidate probably wrote every word >> that's right. i believe it >> two other issues that i think bear upon the life of a nation of great consequence where the president and i have parted ways look n 2016, donald trump promised to governor as a conservative, and i'm proud to say that we did that for four years out of the trump/pence administration, but he makes no such promise today not only has he been walking away from a clear commitment to the right to life, but look, we have a national debt the size of our nation's economy joe biden's policy is insolvency he won't even talk about the 70% of the federal budget that represents entitlements. >> what does president trump want to talk about >> donald trump's position on the national debt is identical to joe biden's, and to me the

republican party has to be the party of growth and fiscal responsibility and reform. i think we owe it to those kids of mine and yours, to my granddaughters to square our shoulders and be straight with the american people about the magnitude of this national debt. >> i admire you on this issue, but you realize it's an unpopular issue. donald trump takes entitlements off the table because it attracted more voters in pennsylvania, wisconsin, and iowa >> look, i get it, i get it, but i think the fact that joe biden came into office, spent $2 trillion on completely unnecessary spending about, and ignited the worst inflation in 40 years, the american people are onto it that as the government racks up debt, the cost of living is going up in this country affecting their family budget, and i it's affecting their family budget

and i think they're ready for a serious conversation that says, look, we can preserve and protect social security and medicare for people that are in retirement and who will retire in the next 25 years, but for younger americans to turn us away from that debt crisis that they're facing, we've got to fa, bring forward common sense and compassion. >> you'd raise the retirement age for people >> i think all of these issues for younger americans are on the table, including allowing younger americans to invest a parks of the payroll tax in a bernl savings account. >> i say take a new deal program, make it a better deal give them a better rate of return >> you realize the politics of whether it was george w. bush -- >> why do you think the this has never worked. every time someone's proposed whether it was george w. bush -- >> why do you think the public is ready this time to listen on this >> again, i think it's because they know the country's in a lot of trouble we have a debt the size of our nation's economy for the first time since world war ii, and inflation has gone up 16% in the last two and a half years. it's crushing the family budgets

of millions of americans, two-thirds of which are living paycheck to paycheck they're starting, in my judgment, to understand that as government racks up debt, inflation is happening, and it's crushing the purchasing power, so we've got to reform it. last issue is a difference, chuck, if i may. and that's about america's place in the war look, i think america is the leader of the free world we're the arsenal of democracy under our administration, we made the largest increase in investment of our national defense in 40 years, and then we -- we unleash the american military to take down the isis caliphate, take down the world's most dangerous terrorists. we even confronted the russians in syria, took out 100 soldiers without one american casualty,

and richs through the international line by force. we drew peace through strength now my former running mate seeing war raging in eastern europe is signaling an ambiguous message and not even able to say who he would prefer to see who wins in ukraine. i think the united states needs to stand by the courageous fighters in ukraine and give them the resources more quickly than joe biden has, to take the fight to the russians and repel this invasion. >> what do you tell your former colleague in the house republican conference who don't share this view? >> well, look, i respectfully disagree ronald reagan in 1985 coined what came to be known as the reagan doctrine. if you're willing to fight the communists in your country, we'll give you the tools to fight them there so we don't have to fight them here. joe biden has done such a terrible job explaining the importance of repelling the russian invasion and supporting the military in ukraine, and he's been delivering the

equipment slowly he promised 33 abrams tanks in january. they're still not there yet. and they're continuing to drag their feet on aircraft but look -- >> it's half your party that doesn't even want what he's been sending. >> number one, it's not half number two - >> the house republicans. >> -- i just think the skepticism of our support for the military in ukraine is more of a relex of a lack of confidence joe biden as commander in chief than it is any other issue. >> you don't think it's donald trump also fueling skepticism? >> what this will take is talks about glossy goals of leadership and having a president that says to the american people, look, it is in our national interests to see the russian military repelled from ukraine, not for joe biden talks about glossy goals of democracy, no.

look, if russia overruns ukraine i predict you it would not be too long before the russian army crossed the border where our men and women in uniform would have to go and fight. >> poland. >> by crossing into a nato ally. poland, estonia, lithuania, chuck, and i also believe by giving ukraine the ability to repel the russian invasion we would send a deafening message to china that the wider world would not tolerate for them to redraw international lines in taiwan or anywhere in the asia pacific.s in taiwan or anywhere in the asia >> for the sake of the campaign, do americans deserve a verdict in trump's case before the polls? before the election? >> well, i -- i expect they'll get it. >> you'd like it see this trial take place before the election the american public should know before the election whether these allegations are true in a court of law >> look, i think the president should have the right to bring his defense in a court of law. >> and it should be speedy >> and if he's found to be

guilty, he has the right to pursue an appeal >> do you think it's a mistake to delay the trial until after the election >> i also think that the american people would be greatly heartened given the controversy and the evidence that's come out publicly and the hunter biden laptop and all of the allegations and even news that broke in the last few weeks, the american people would be heartened to see the department of justice move against hunter biden and move against the accusations against the biden family and continue to pursue just as aggressively an investigation into president biden's mishandling of classified documents we've got to restore confidence in the rule of law. >> want to talk a little more about your campaign, which i'm sure you'll be pleased about and less about donald trump's legal issues who is a pence supporter and how does it differentiate right now from a trump supporter

if you are a republican nominee, it means you will win trump supporters at some point right now they're not for you. how do you convince them because he's angry at you, they're angry at you >> well, look, i -- i think that the people around the country, as i've traveled the last two e years, have -- have -- have in the main, very humbling views about me and my family main, vey i mean i've been stopped at airports, in grocery stores, and at gas stations by americans of every political persuasion who thanked me for my service of my country. >> how many of them wore maga hats our with there people wearing maga hats doing that? >> look, i know the people in our movement, and i can honestly tell you that they're some of the best people in this country. they love america and they love our constitution, and i have every confidence as we carry our campaign forward and we

articulate not only the way we kept faith with the constitution on one day, but our determination to lead our party on that broad, conservative agenda that's delivered not just great victories for the just republican party but for the americans over the last 50 years, i have ever confidence that this party will come together after a good and vigorous primary and we'll deliver a great victory in 2024. >> are you confident that if donald trump does not have the most delegates, that he will concede the republican nomination >> i -- i am confident that republican primary voters will sort all of this out in the months ahead >> will he accept defeat you saw him once not accept defeat do you believe he will accept defeat in this primary if he doesn't have -- >> i understand your preoccupation with my former running mate >> he's the front-runner it's not a preoccupation it's not a choice.

>> what he will do, what he won't do chuck, republican primary voters know the stakes in this election they know that we've not just got to win, but we've got to steer our country back for the things that made our country strong, prosperous and free and i'm confident that we'll have a standard bearer that will hold up the conservative values, and i believe in all of my heart that i'll beat the nominee and that we'll lead our party and our country to full victory in 2024 >> you can see my full interview of vice president pence on meetthepress.com, and for transparently purposes, you'll see it completely untouched. as the country celebrates juneteenth, we take a lot at the fight in reparations starting in the state of america whether america should pay its black citizens for hundreds of years of slavery, jim crow, and this isn't theoretical this could start happening in california, soon watch on peacock, youtube or right after this broadcast on nbc news now

when we come back, it is not uncommon uncommon for former prosecutors to be jailed after leaving office we'll show you why it isn't unprecedented for democracy. "data download" is next.

♪ ♪ welcome back "data download" time donald trump's arraignment this week was a watershed event for this country, but according to our friends at axios, since 1980, about half of the nations in the world have seen former leaders jailed or prosecuted

including in quite a few democracies. in fact, among leaders who have left office after 2000, there are 76 countries where we have seen leaders jailed or prosecuted let's look at a few of these cases, and we're going to start with central and south america in guatemala, we will start there. former president molina and roxanna valdetti both found guilty of corruption last year portillo attempted to launder $2.5 million through u.s. banks. in panama, former presidents have been called to stand trial in a massive money laundering probe, and, of course, that international corrupt scandal in brazil took down president lula, but he was able to run for office again and win the presidency after his case was annulled let's go to europe in france, former president

nicolas sarkozy must wear an ankle bracelet for a year after he lost the conviction against vice president chirac. let's go to israel where bibi netanyahu is on trial for corruption charges even as he currently serve as prime minister and his predecessor served 16 months in prison for accepting bribes and obstructing justice. in south korea, former president pac geun-hye served five years in prison for corruption charges. and just this week, silvio berlusconi passed away at the age of 86 and he, too, had brushes with the law and was investigated a lot and ended up with one conviction for tax fraud in 2013, and, guess what donald trump wasn't even the only former government leader to be arrested this week. meet nicola sturgeon, the former first minister of scotland, an she was arrested for financial misconduct and though she was later released without being charged ending further investigation.

what happened to trump may have been unprecedented in the united states, but for other democracies and countries, it' not exactly a groundbreaking development. when we come back, why some republicans are looking to run further to the right from donald trump. will it work it's okay, the general gives you a break. yeah, we let you pick your own due date. good to know, because this next scene might take a while. for a great low rate, go with the general.

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it's happening. get started with fast speeds and advanced security for $49.99 a month for 12 months. plus ask how to get up to a $750 prepaid card with qualifying internet. i want to pick up one part of the conversation that we didn't finish, and this is this idea, hallie, on biden should biden pardon trump? mark thiessen and daniel pletka who is a familiar face around the panel, i thought made a pretty compelling argument as to why maybe president biden ought to consider a pardon of trump. if he doesn't do that, there could be a lot of political consequences, and it comes as nobody believes trump. >> part in the days after the indictment with some of these if not overt suggestions of violence or at illusions for it, eye for an eye, there is after january 6th the very real threat that violence can occur because of something that donald trumpnr

may push, and i think that's where a lot of the concern comes in >> kimberly, where are you on this issue of pardon >> i used to think that it was a good idea that nixon was pardoned in order to keep the country together i now think it is one of the biggest mistakes that were made. >> i may share that view i wonder would we be thinking about this differently today if we had the premise, no one is above the law? >> yeah. i think we may be in a totally different place today if we did not have that and it was clear that there would be consequences, including criminal ones, for flouting the rule of law. i think that's one of the reasons. i think that would be a terrible idea and look, after what happened on january 6th with the prosecutions of the people who were there, i think that's one reason why we haven't seen the violence when he was indicted. that's why we haven't seen violence everywhere. >> there are consequences. >> if there are consequences for

them, there should be consequences for the president >> nixon had accountability by resigning. he was disgraced and what ford is saying we don't need to disgrace him further to agree that watergate was bad there's no measure of accountability, and that's a different historical judgment. >> steve hayes, i'm not going to play the clip because we're low on time and ron desantis was trying to hit donald trump for being soft on abortion in theory, maybe there is room to trump's right to beat him there on the issue, at least i the state of iowa, but is that something that will work >> i think iowa in particular and in the republican primary more generally, you will find republican voters who were pro-life and probably will respond to that kind of an argument the question is whether the republican party is really an ideological place anymore. it was so interesting to hear about the mike pence discussion, we ought to have the big debate. >> he wants to have a debate about what the republican party should be. >> and is the republican party

still a limited government party? gove you haven't heard that debate, really, for eight years in the republican party i think with ron desantis on the abortion question, given what he's done in florida, it's sort of surprising that he hasn't run on it to this point. remember, he was sort of shy about it >> they are nervous. it makes him less electable in general. >> they have to win in order to get to a general and it will not just be the issue of reproductive rights and the strategy of those who i talked to is to run to the right of donald trump and all of these so-called culture war issues, which is where some of the ideology of the party is, on education and lgbtq plus rights and issues of abortion and to show that ron desantis can win

on this issue. >> i've heard the argument, ted cruz tried this. >> it's the environment. we can go back to 2016 over and over again and we do see a fragmented field and the context is different and not only on those issues and he didn't build the wall which is his main argument in 2016 >> before we go, one year after the landmark supreme courtrnings decision overturning roe v. wade, we here at "meet the press" will be observing what it means for the future of the country. the watch the "meet the press" special this thursday evening at 10:30 eastern time on "nbc news now" and after that on demand on youtube and peacock. that is all we have for today. thank you for watching we'll be back next week because if it's sunday it's "meet the press. enjoy father's day ♪ ♪ how strong is the special counsel's case on obstruction specifically >> a lot of th