they are stanth stding strong. >> so many impacts have carried through a century here i am so grateful that you're able to educate us on what is happening. i was telling you during the commercial break, my daughter who is in first grade asked me last night, what is juneteenth we had an opportunity to talk about it at our kitchen table and i'm sure other families are doing the same today as twe mar this federal holiday that does it for us here we will see you back here for "ana cabrera reports" at 10:00 a.m. eastern thank you for joining us jose diaz-balart picks up our coverage right now good afternoon happy juneteenth thanks for joining us. i'm jose diaz-balart covering two hours of nbc reports today today a high stakes meeting in beijing between secretary of state blinken and president xi

jinping. they are trial stabilize the two super powers secretary blinken, we are following that meeting this morning, former president trump and his attorneys ordered not to disclose evidence in the mar-a-lago classified documents case members of his administration ramp up their criticism. >> do you believe he lied to the justice department >> do i personally believe it? yes. he constantly engaged in reckless conduct. ukraine making gains in its counteroffensive against russia, recapturing a village in the southeast on sunday. carrying out a strike on rusch's ammunition depot deep behind enemy lines this morning, an increasing tensions between the u.s. and

china. secretary of state antony blinken became the highest ranking official in the biden administration to visit that country. he met with china's president xi jinping for 35 minutes and had an hour's long talk with china's top diplomats. the u.s. is describing the meeting candid and constructive and the china foreign minister will come to washington to continue discussions in the future our china correspondent sat down with the secretary of state just after his meetings >> it's a good and, i think, important start. both the china and united states i think recognize we were in an an increasing unstage place in our relationship i think this is the start of a process to put a little more stability into it. both of us recognize that we have an obligation to spoken manage the relationship and that starts with communicating with actually engaging across our government and this was an opportunity to

do that, an opportunity to make very clear where our deep differences are, and to have very detailed conversations about that, as well as to see if there are areas where in our mutual interests we might actually cooperate >> nbc janice mackie fraer joins me a great interview you had with the secretary of state what were your big takeaways from that conversation >> the secretary of state seems to think this was a very positive visit for him this was a visit, remember, that was called off four months ago in the aftermath of that spy balloon being shot down. when i asked him at the very end of the interview if he believed that the spy balloon incident is over now with china, that it's water under the bridge, he said that chapter should be closed,

suggesting that he is seeing these talks in beijing over the past couple of days as a new starting point where he did admit that he did not make any progress was in reestablishing defense lines of communication. these are the military-to-military phone lines between the u.s. and china if something should go wrong. they have been silent for months now, despite attempts to get them reopened. here is more of what he had to say on that. what about the lines of communication between the militaries there have been close calls. how dangerous is it that you're leaving beijing without direct assurances that these lines of communication will open when the tactics, if you're to be growing bolder >> it's imperative for us and it really should be for them to restore these military-to-military challenges of communication for exactly the reason that you cited. we have seen a couple of very

dangerous incidents the last couple of weeks with their ships driving much too close to ours and their planes doing the same thing. that is the quickest path to an inadvertent conflict i don't have any progress to report on reestablishing the military-to-military challenges. i can say that they understand very clearly the importance we attach to this. >> reporter: jose, how this visit was also a mile post was that it seemed necessary for china to get past this visit with the secretary of state so it could then bring on more visits china's economy not in great shape right now. they are looking to have those high level visits from the commerce secretary and the treasury secretary and those visits could happen within the next few weeks jose >> janice, i'm wondering what he had to say about that chinese spy base or installation in cuba 20 miles south of havana

did he talk about that you know china has been so actively involved in entering all aspects of economy, politics, and in latin america. >> reporter: well, the revelation of china having a spy base on cuba, the secretary of state says wasn't much of a revelation at all. they said they have known this for years, that there has been some expansion i asked him whether it came up in the talks he said, of course, that he had raised it several times with the chinese officials here, but i asked if he was willing to dismiss a chinese spy base on cuba as just the natural consequences of byproduct of a bilateral relationship he says it's something they are watching very closely that they want to keep in check. also, they will be very vigilant

in watching for any signs that china would like to make it more than a spy base by potentially moving military assets there. >> thank you so much, janice joining us now is illinois congressman, a democrat on the house intelligence committee and rank be meg on the strategic competition between the u.s. and china. congressman, a pleasure to see you. thank you for your time. >> good to see you. >> thank you likewise i was looking for your reaction to what we have been hearing out of beijing today and the secretary's visit to china >> i think it was a positive step i commend the biden administration and secretary blinken for making this visit. on the other hand, they were able to establish a working level group for fighting, basically this fentanyl problem that originates in china, by the way. they were able to establish --

understanding with regard to increasing academic exchanges, as well as more flights to and from china, and the foreign minister is coming to the u.s., which is all a good thing. where i was a little disappointed was the failure to establish a military-to-military communications channel which is extremely important for the reasons that tony blinken laid out, but hopefully will increase those communications in the days and weeks to come as well. >> you know, it's odd when you think of just how difficult relations are between china and the united states. i mean, just recently, you know, china wouldn't answer the secretary of defense's call. i'm just wondering, congressman, how do you see that relationship with china that has a very pro active policy of spy balloon over the u.s. and spy balloon over latin america and it flew over colombia.

now we have, you know, what appears to be some confirmation of china having some kind of intelligence based in a portion of cuba and lord knows where else they are doing that how do you have a relationship with a country like that, that is so pro actively coming in to latin america and, you know, spy balloons >> yeah. on the one hand, we have to absolute do whatever it takes on our side to equip us and our friends and partners and allies in the region and then pacific region and other places to deter aggression or aggressive moves i think with regard to latin america, i agree with the national security council exterior director juan gonzalez who said we have to offer alternatives to, for instance, the belton road initiative which china offers our latin american friends, but those projects that they offer are often debt ladened projects, where china

ends up taking over the projects and those countries open them a lot of money for that. we should enlance our development finance corporation as mr. gonzalez mentioned and make tools available to enhance the development of these countries and their democracies. it's a complicated relationship we have with china. >> yeah. i mean, it's so critical when you're talking about there are, as you know better than most, new proposals in congress including one from senators mendes and rubio to increase trade with latin american china's top trading partner, has latin america just been a blind spot for the u.s. on this issue and how to deal with it? >> yes i think that is correct. i think that even at the same time we are dealing with, for instance, these immigration and migrant challenges on the border, we have to understand that unless we engage more economically with our friends and partners and allies south of

the mexico border or in latin america, we are only going to exacerbate those other challenges that we seem to see highlighted by our colleagues on the other side constantly. and so this ccp challenge, it may be a moment for us to galvanize the will and the resources necessary to really economically engage with latin america and, in doing so, also out-compete the chinese in our ongoing competition with them. >> yeah. you know, it's interesting what you just, you know, mentioned just a little while ago there is a difference between an economic relationship that doesn't exploit the other side it doesn't create an economic dependency on the other side and it just seems like -- i'm so glad, congressman, you're on with us today. i appreciate your time very much. >> thank you, sir. new developments today in

the federal documents probe against donald trump what the magistrate overseeing the case is now ordering i'll have that for you next in 60 seconds from prom dresses to workouts and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination. ♪ shelves. shelves that know what taste buds want. shelves smart enough to see, sense, react, restock. ♪

so caramel swirl is always there for the taking. new developments today in the federal documents indictment of formerpresident donald trump. this morning, the magistrate overseeing the case ordering mr. trump's attorneys not to share evidence with the media and the public and notably saying the former president cannot retain copies of the documents and must have supervision while reviewing material the order coming as trump's form attorney general bill barr circulated his attacks on his former boss in these scathing comments take a listen. >> he will always put his own interests and grat iifying his n ego above the country's interests.

he is like a defiant 9-year-old kid pushing the glass at the edge of the table to keep his parents to keep him him from doing it he is a petty individual who are always put hi interests ahead of the country's. his personal gratification of his, you know, of his ego. but our country -- our country can't, you know, be a therapy session for, you know, a troubled man like this >> joining us now nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken delanieian the boston globe columnist and others i thank you all for being with us b ken, bring us up-to-speed. >> this is called a rule 16 protective order that is absolutely standard and pro forma in a situation like this but this is getting a lot of

attention because there is nothing standard in pro forma about former president donald trump as a defendant we knew he has a habit of making public information that he learned from his lawyers in various legal proceedings so this order makes very clear he is not allowed to do that. nobody who gets access to discovery materials in this case is allowed to release them to the news media and what that means is that is the names of the witnesses and nature of their testimony which is significant because people who end up being witnesses against donald trump often find themselves on the receiving ends of death threats it specific he it connotes but they must be stored with the defense lawyers. a lot on the defense lawyers to supervise their client this is the nonclassified information. the classified documents will be under security clearances. we know the government intends

to introduce 31 documents and it's knnot clear if those have been declassified and certain procedures not to let the jury be shown the full portion of the documents but you can be sure that donald trump and his lawyers will be pushing the government to get access of every bit of all the classified information seized in this case and that is going to be an ongoing dispute in this case. >> how notable, charlie, is this growing criticism for the men who used to serve for him? thinking of bill barr and others saying mr. trump holding on to these documents was a national security risk? >> it's awfully significant. think how extraordinary it is that donald trump's hand-picked attorney general and his secretary of defense are both saying these this is not witch hunt these are serious charges that put the nation's security at risk so these are the calls coming from inside the house. it's one thing for members of

the resistance and democrats and never trumpers to criticize donald trump but there is a growing chorus of people who were in the room who saw and worked with donald trump in person, up close, in the raw, and are now saying this is who this man is. so it is an extraordinary moment and i think it's without parallel in america history that so many would turn on the president of t president of the united states like this. >> bill barr slammed the former president. he said he compared the efforts to overturn the election listen to this. >> the legal theory by which he gets to tape battle plans and sensitive national security information as his personal papers is absurd it's just as wacky as the legal doctrine that came up with for, you know, having the vice president unilaterally determine who won the election.

>> david, separately, "the washington post" said, quote give us context of these two cases. >> absolutely. i can say this on barr's comment. trump does not have a legal defense but his problem is actually even bigger than that he can't even mount a legal dense. keep in mind, this is coming down to a trial. his argument the documents are not classified and if they were i didn't and if i did now he declassified them or my lawyers told me it was iokay there are rules saying in court things that happen outside of court. here is the bigger problem everything has to get proven in court. this goes back to the point you raised before. it's not past from a legal strategy to what i call -- he burns out the clock hoping republican takes office again, maybe him, or he starts leaning on witnesses which is why he can't communicate with them and

this is the huge open to the question can he win this during jury selection you can win any case if you can pick the right jury and you have several advantages in that area. >> kimberly, 2024 polling shows trump aid 20 to 30 points. is that something you think is going to hold going forward? >> i mean, it's hard to predict just because so many things that are happening right now have no precedent. it's very unpredictable. donald trump is the last republican president he is the one with the highest name recognition you have a lot of candidates just introducing themselves to voters but, at the same time, he represents something that has strong backing within the republican party, that trumpism, that has taken over the republican party so, in a way, it's not too surprising he's at the top of it i think why you're seeing you have former trump officials who are increasingly speaking candidly about how serious these

charges are. you also have his opponents who are trying to side-step or step very carefully and figure out exactly how they communicate about it because they are afraid of alienated any voter if they have a chance to ascend to this nomination it's creating quite the political landscape that is very difficult to predict. >> very difficult to predict, indeed danny, i mean, there was more pardon talk from former vice president and presidential candidate mike pence on "meet the press. it's something that the press is asking pretty much all of these candidates let's play just some of what that exchange looked like and i'll get your reaction on the other side, danny. >> i don't know why some of my competitors in the republican primary are presumed the president will be found guilty if i have the great privilege of being president of the united states, as i did when i was a governor, we would value any request for pardon for any american. >> if you were president biden,

would you pardon him right now >> i just think this whole matter is incredibly divisive for the country. >> you know, interesting you say, danny, that this talk of a pardon is kind of silly what do you mean by that >> pardons are a paradox to begin with they are the president or the doj through the pardon attorney undoing all of the hard work of the doj. when you consider it almost every pardon involves someone who was convicted, the vast majority of pardon petitions are by people of long been convicted and are incarcerated they are usually not granted pre-conviction when the case is still pending. but the vast majority, these are cases that doj invested substantial resources in and convicted and prosecuted somebody beyond a reasonable doubt beyond peers and the doj or president undoes that with a wave of his or her hand.

that isn't necessarily a bad thing. i'm a criminal defense attorney. a lot of people are criminally convicted and it is kind of a paradox because it's undoing a lot of work of the doj now when mike pence says it's premature, no kidding? almost all pardons are granted after conviction when mike pence says presuming he will be found guilty, no kidding. all defendants, criminal defendants are presumed innocent so pence is saying nothing avoiding the real question which is this -- a president does have the power to unilaterally pardon someone in advance of their conviction should that be done h here that is political question that other candidates have ens answered and mike pence is not answering for what jverever rea. >> nixon comes into our thought here when we talk about preemptive ken was talking about nothing standard and nothing pro forma

about this entire case of the many cases we are looking at this one specifically in south florida. the fact that the jury now has to or at least the attorneys, start with the attorneys in this case they have to go through some kind of security clearance, danny, how nonpro-forma and how does that delay things >> the government does prosecute highly sensitive document cases. there is a procedure for this. it does happen but the notion that there is any chance that the traditional clock, the 70-die clock from arraignment to trial day to federal cases will be even close to adhered to is a fantasy. it's not going to happen this is a case that is going to be designated complex. it will require many more months than the standard federal criminal case and motions to dismiss and the complexity of dealing with the highly sensitive documents. add on months and months and months to any reasonable

projection in this case, which brings us smack dab into election time or even inauguration time. >> i thank you all for joining me today great seeing all of you. i appreciate your time today coming up, we are going to talk about this counteroffensive that is intensifying in ukraine. we will go to keefe live for latest on the new battlefield gains of the ukrainians next jailed opposition leader navalny defending himself in a russian courtroom. the new charges and potential sentence he is facing ahead. you're watching "msnbc reports."

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we moved out of the city so our little sophie could appreciate nature. when you have a plan. but then he got us t-mobile home internet. i was just trying to improve our signal, so some of the trees had to go. i might've taken it a step too far. (chainsaw revs) (tree crashes) (chainsaw continues) (daughter screams) let's pretend for a second that you didn't let down your entire family. what would that reality look like? well i guess i would've gotten us xfinity... and we'd have a better view. do you need mulch? what, we have a ton of mulch. ukraine forces retook control of a village in the southeastern part of the country which had been previously

illegally annexed by russia i thank you for this for being with us. raf, what have you been seeing there? >> reporter: we spent some time with ukrainian troops who were preparing to deploy to the front line and armed with american made m-wraps, they are heavily armored vehicles and mind resistant and used by the u.s. military in iraq and syria and the ukraine yaians hope to use . moral was high they feel that they have the latest, most advanced western weaponry but, as you said, this is grinding difficult combat the russians are dug in. they are able to use more of their air power out of occupied

crimea and out of russia, itself and as you said, the ukrainians today announced that they have managed to take back this village in zaporizhzhia, a village occupied in the very first days of the war back in february 2022. but the problem from kyiv's perspective is that the progress of this counteroffensive at this stage is being measured in small villages, not in cities. the british government is saying that losses are as serious on both sides and on the russian side, they say they are losing as being troops now as they were losing at the peak of the fighting around the city of bakhmut earlier this year when russia was sending mercenaries and other troops against the opposition. >> thank you so very much. general, what is your big picture view how things are going right now? these villages that have been reclaimed over the weekend and the last couple of days.

how do you see it going forward? >> well, what i see is it's going extremely slow the villages that have been taken, these are tactical gains and symbolic gains and not strategiek gains yet the ukrainians have not hitted hard fight now they are in and around the reconnaissance areas of the troops and trying to get to the mine fields. behind the mine fields will be the main defensive belt of the russians where you'll find on most of the tanks and artillery and trench systems and the buffer a massive dug-in russian defense behind those locations so that is what the hard fighting -- where the hard fight is going to. >> general, with the technology and armaments, in a way i've been kind of rereading a lot of our history and i think back to 6th june, 1944 which started

that offensive but it took a month and a half to get just the areas that they needed to get in through normandy is this, in a way, with new technology and new armaments in a way kind of similar what we saw in 1944? town-by-town, village-by-village >> no change there at the end of the day you can have all of this technology but you have to put boots on on the ground to hold this terrain and what you're seeing in the ukrainians are doing you can bomb all you want. you can fly drones over and drop munitions all you want to. you have to put the boots on the ground to rout the enemy out of the bunkers fif you want to kee or retain the land and what you see the ukrainians doing

i wouldn't measure this fight in days or weeks. perhaps we don't measure it in months this is going to be a long war here and, as we continue to move through the summer months, keep in mind, september, it starts to get cold, rainy, fog will set in, and so this is going to be long and drawn out. >> general, what is it that the ukrainian people and its armed forces need now? and what are some of the things that they are not getting that maybe they should be getting to make a bigger difference in this slog >> yeah. you can see it as they go through here that they badly need attack helicopters, they badly need the f-16s on the ground so they can strike deep at those targets that they need to strike at they need to strike more at the low logistics and demand centers back behind this russian defense

and they need to knock out the artillery and they need to knock out the russian air defense systems. if they get the right air assets, they will ratchet up and do those type of attacks. >> lieutenant general, a pleasure, sir. thank you for being with us today. >> thank you, jose. in moscow today, the russian capital, there was a lot of activity russian opposition leader alexey navalny was in court there you see the pictures defending himself. in a new trial that could add decades to his current prison sentence he is known for being a prominent anti-kremlin and anti-corruption organizer and faces new charge of extremism that he called absurd in a moscow district court earlier. his supporters have continually said the cases against him are politically motivate joining us is nbc correspondent

josh letterman what is different between the in charges against navalny today? >> reporter: he already was facing about 11 1/2 years on charge that include fraud and contempt of court and parole violations the new charges, according to navalny, could add another 30 years to his sentence. they include things like incitement of extremism, financing of extremism, as well as rehabilitation of nazism. you know is kind of a go to kremlin these days the same allegation that president putin has leveled against president zelenskyy of ukraine who is jewish. these are very serious charges he is facing we saw navalny appear in court even though this trial is part of the moscow city court, it did not take place in moscow instead, it's being held some 150 miles outside of moscow in a maximum security prison where navalny has been held. he appeared briefly in that

hearing, appearing gaunt and weak but very strident in defense of himself claiming these charges are absurd, that they are all politically motivated. the kremlin was asked today whether they are following how they are reacting to these new charges levied not only against al alexey navalny but also 15 of his collaborators who work with him in his anticorruption organization the kremlin saying they are not following the trial at all. >> josh letterman in london, thank you very much. president biden taking on climate change the new multimillion dollar investment he is pushing with voters we are in palo alto next (vo) this is sadie, she's on verizon. the network she can count on. and now she has myplan, the game-changing new plan that lets her get exactly what she wants and save on every perk. sadie is moving to the big city and making moves on her plan, too. apple one, on. now she's got plenty of entertainment for the whole ride.

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right now, president biden is en route to the west coast for an event focusing on the fight against climate change and some fund-raising as his re-election campaign kicks into high gear. this afternoon, in palo alto, california, he will announce program for coastal communities to be more together because of climate change joining us from palo alto is our correspondent. mike, good to see you today. the climate change is a centerpiece of much of biden's wins legitimately and otherwise.

how is the white house working to showcase them >> reporter: the president is on air force one making his way out to california, it's worth noting that what has brought him out to california most observe the last two and a half years since he has been in office have been climate-related disasters. he has come to look at the impacts of severe flooding or wildfires. on this visit the president is coming to draw attention to the ways of which he has seen through congress and he has signed into law to prevent these climate related disasters in the future he is mentioning 600 million to these projects the similar projects would be funded by this california this week is getting another pot of $67 million for improving their energy grid here to be more resilient because of surg surges in climate change and 2.3 billion federally. we head into the summer months

we are seeing on a daily basis extreme weather whether the tornadoes we saw in the south or potential tropical development in the unusually early in the atlantic good time for the president to put a spotlight on this but what often brings him to california, you mentioned fund-raisers that is he doing the next 48 hours and 20 fund-raisers he and other top members of the biden team are doing before the end of the month here. >> there is a lot of movement in the atlantic i got to tell you, there are issues of concern there. obviously, you know, this is a fund-raising trip. you were just talking about that for the president. over the weekend he held a first rally of his re-election days in the xcampaign. >> reporter: the top biden adviser telling us at that event in philadelphia on saturday, that this is still really going to be the exception, rather than the norm in terms of seeing the president as we saw him saturday assess a big boisterous rally surrounded by union workers

touting his economic vision for the country, because the president is really going to continue to be president for most of the next year until the republican primary is sorted out. but that being said, it was an important moment to spotlight the key constituencies union workers last week making a joint endorsement at the same time climate related groups last week making endorsements and important sector of the biden coalition. we enter to the dobbs decision was struck town to a constitutional right to abortion and may see some more from women's rights group the biden campaign is slowly building itself out of ahead of 2024 and benefiting from a lot of friends in the coalition that will be energized behind him next year. >> mike, i thank you very much, my friend. great seeing you. black americans and others across the nation are

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the holiday recognizes an end of slavery in the united states on june 19th, 1865, when 250,000 enslaved black people in galveston, texas, were proclaimed free for years after the e -- with me now is nbc correspondent in new york and "the washington post" analyst. how are people celebrating where you are today? >> the party here in queens is just getting started black vendors and business owners are setting up shop here. there is a bunch of food trucks. there are health care organizations, kids groups, performers getting ready to head over to a stage to my left and do original music and dance performances all day long here this is a holiday that, as you mentioned, has, for generations

now, meant something to black communities all over the country, although it started out in texas but now that it has this federal recognition for the last two years, community organizations have been able to get the funding to host larger festivals and to really shine a light on black business owners, community leaders, and use this as a holiday that recognizes something heartbreaking in our history, right that for two years, were slaves in the united states who were unaware that they had received their freedom, who were still enslaved and waiting until someone came to them to let them know, and that is a history that needs to be acknowledged, that people have talked about but the moment of juneteenth is really about celebration and also an acknowledgment of how far we have come i want you to take a listen to a conversation i had listen to a i had with one of the organizers here responsible for bringing all these community partners here to queens today >> something that we've been telling people and i think is really, really important to know is that the same laws passed in

1 1865 and 1865 were the same that we had to pass we're fighting our way to freedom through legislation. events like this are a radical love and joy for all that black people had to do in this country to liberate themselves. >> reporter: you'll see that message around here today, too people are selling t-shirts that talk about mental health, community power. you'll see comments that say freeish since 1965 the acknowledgment of history is always here. it's also a party. people are cooking, hanging out, chetting up chairs and blankets and getting ready to relax and enjoy this day off >> it's so important, antonia, to know our history and to know the peaks and the valleys in history, the clouds and the sunny days antonia, only 28 states and d.c. recognize juneteenth as a

federal holiday. what does that tell you about the state of divide in our country? >> reporter: for me, jose, i think it speaks to the educational piece here there are americans who are still finding out about juneteenth, who still don't know about the history of enslavement in this country. in some cases it's justa matte of the conversation. some communities starting to figure out what their celebrations might look like the other thing, too, when president biden signed this in 2021, he was not the first to think about making juneteenth a holiday. organizers in communities like queens had been asking state level representatives to recognize this day, to hold events it trickled up from the grassroots and got all the way to the president's desk. there are still communities where the grassroots work is being done folks say they're ready to educate people, we want to keep talking about and celebrating juneteenth and we think more and more people will get behind it as we go >> i think it's so important

eugene, i haven't seen you in a while. good to see you, my friend, just to start our conversation there. >> good to see you, also, jose >> i want -- i was thinking about what antonia was talking about, 1964, 1965, the voting rights, civil rights act there's so much about that that americans don't even know how 100 years later, there were these important times in our history that are just ignored. how can you ignore that part of our history? >> well, you can't hoe say, i'm not sure we have a very good connection i think i'm frozen so maybe we should try again you can't ignore it. it's a part of our history it's american history. it's not black american history. it's american history.

it's your history as well as mine and that's the central think about juneteenth it's our second independence day. we should all i think as a nation celebrate it as such. it is the day we mark the second founding of the united states. >> indeed it is. i don't know, eugene if we have you visually, but we're hearing you perfectly, and that's really important. thinking about this, "the washington post" poll finds more than half of black americans think racism will get worse over their lifetimes. with the political season up and running again, it's just starting take a look at those numbers it's like -- how is it that people -- can we change that

>> i think nah number that you're talking about, that 51%, i think that's borne of recent experience, frankly. we saw in our life times, in our recent history we saw the election of the first black president of the united states, something i never really thought i would see in my lif lifetime then we saw what seemed to many of us like a concerted backlash, a concerted reassertion, if you will, of white supremacy we saw racism increase and sort of devolve back to the kind of overt racism that i remember from my childhood in the south now, i'm not saying that -- it's not the whole country that reacted like that, but i do see

sort of naked expressions of racism over the last seven or eight or nine years of a kind that i had not seen since the 1960s. so i think that number reflects what people have seen in their recent experience. >> with that reality, eugene, how can you effect change? >> my theory about how we make progress on race in this country, and i think it's borne out by the record, is that it is always scratchy and uncomfortable, and it's two steps forward and then a step backward or two steps backward and something happens, like the killing of george floyd, for example, and it galvanizes people we argue about it. and then, you know, it's not

until five or ten years later when we look back and we can say, well, maybe we did make progress so that is my hope, that as we go through this difficult period that 10, 15, 20 years from now we'll look back and we'll say, wow, we did make progress even though it was difficult. >> the arc of the universe thank you antonia hylton and you jean robinson for being with us today. appreciate your time thank you for the privilege of your time this hour. when we come back, special coverage on msnbc continues right after a break. thanks the subway series? it's the perfect menu lineup. just give us a number, we got the rest. number three? the monster. six? the boss. fifteen? titan turkey. number one? the philly. oh, yeah, you probably don't want that one. look, i'm not in charge of naming the subs. ♪♪ ♪ a bunch of dead guys made up work, way back when. ♪ ♪ it's our turn now we'll make it up again. ♪

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