of grievance which powers the trump movement in general. when he is attacked, no matter what the nature of the attack is, and he argues it is partisan, his hard core supporters believe that, and it is very, very difficult for his opponents to get a leg up, for both those reasons. >> it may play out differently in a general election. >> absolutely. >> but you couldn't be more right. it is nothing but strengthening him right now, at least in the polls. >> nobody picked the lock to figure out how to use these charges and these issues against him, right? pence hasn't done it. christie hasn't done it. you know, it's a dilemma for them. >> ongoing challenge. trump continues to block out the sun. that's what gop, his rivals, say. great stuff from "playbook" co-author and chief correspondent for "politico," ryan lizza. we'll see you soon. thanks for getting up "way too early" with us on this tuesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now.

>> he understands the role of attorney general is to serve and protect the people of the united states, and that is exactly what he will do and do better than anybody else can. >> jeff sessions was a disaster as attorney general. he's not qualified. he is not mentally qualified to be attorney general. we hope bill barr going to be as good as we think because he is a great gentleman, a great man. by the way, when bill barr, who is a coward. you know, bill barr was a coward. he didn't do what he was supposed to do. i fired him, and he has great chairman. for the joint chiefs of staff, general milley will serve as my top military adviser. i have absolute confidence he will fulfill his duty with the same brilliance and fortitude he has shown throughout his long and very distinguished career. he was, frankly, incompetent. the last one i'd want to attack with as my leader would be

milley. general kelly has been a star. he's done an incredible job thus far, respected by everybody. a great, great american. i know john kelly. he was with me. didn't do a good job. had no temperament. ultimately, he was petered out. he was exhausted. this man was totally exhausted. he wasn't even able to function. i am confident that jay has the wisdom and leadership to guide our economy through any challenges that our great economy may face. i had my situation with powell, and i beat the hell out of him. i was not a fan of powell. he was recommended by some people. i didn't like him. >> a brief look back at donald trump claiming to have hired the best people, only to trash them after they left his administration. it is something he was pressed on last night in a wide-ranging and contentious interview with

fox news. the former president offered new and, at times, incoherent reasons for why he kept classified materials at mar-a-lago. >> by the way, incoherent according to fox news analysts. >> it was an incredible interview. >> also incoherent. also, we'll go to beijing for the latest on relations following secretary of state blinken's meeting with chinese president xi jinping. plus, rescuers in the atlantic are racing against time in the search for a submerible mini submarine that went missing while diving to the wreckage of the "titanic. ". good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, june 20th. we have the host of "way too early" and white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. former aide to the george w. bush white house and state departments, elise jordan. the president of the council on foreign relations, richard haass. and pulitzer prize winning

columnist and associate editor of "the washington post" and msnbc analyst, eugene robinson. >> we can't let those quotes go by, gene. >> my, that was -- >> you have donald trump saying of jeff sessions that he's better than anybody else, better equipped, better qualified. after he got ahold of him, he said, trump, he was never cut out for the job. >> yup. >> said the same thing of barr, that he'd do a great job. then he said he was a coward. milley, i love this, he had confidence in milley, and he talked about through his career, his brilliance was recognize bid everybody, including trump. so before he went to work for donald trump, there was unanimous consent that general milley was brilliant. trump talked about his brilliance. suddenly, after working for

donald trump for a few short years, he became incompetent. general kelly, a star, respected by everyone. after he worked for donald trump for a year, year and a half, he was barely able to function. >> what does he do to them? >> powell. >> yeah. >> i mean, again, here is a guy, and you do wonder, this almost cult-like following of donald trump, you wonder why people can't see the obvious. here's chris christie, who, by the way, said, joe, going to help you out yesterday on twitter. he said, you know -- he went through a list. he said, mark milley, before, he's a great gentleman, he's a great patriot, a great soldier. afterward, a blanking idiot, pathetic. here's on jerome powell. before, he's strong, committed and smart. after, he asks of jay powell, who is our bigger enemy, jay powell or chairman xi?

so donald trump appoints somebody to the fed that he believes is a bigger enemy to the united states of america than the head of communist china. >> yeah. >> again, who would vote for a man like that? >> well, right. two things from that series of clips. first, you watch them, and it just struck me. this guy was president of the united states. amazing. how in the world did that happen, that this awful person became president of the united states? unbelievable. the second thing is, what do all of those officials that he turned on have in common? they all told him no at various points. they all reached a point where, no, we're not going to do that. you can't push me into doing that. as a result, you know, he savages them and attacks them and they're idiots and they're stupid. but who was surprised?

this is what donald trump has done his entire life. this is who he is. you know, we had him for four years as president. let us please not do that again. >> right. >> it's just stunning. >> i mean, there's so many good examples of that. his terrible judgment or his terrible leadership. general milley, he goes from saying that he is just the best, the best since george patten, and then at the end, the most overrated general ever. of rex tillerson, talks about his brilliance, then he ends up tall calling him an idiot. we could go on and on. jonathan lemire, last night, we're going to show clips from an interview that even fox news analysts said trump was incoherent in. we're going to show that interview. he says, yeah, but for every one

of those people who happen to be the leaders, the people who run, there are ten people who loved me, said i was great, and we did all these wonderful things. by the way, he is sounding like a leftist. he says, look what we did with the economy. donald trump now actually believes that it is not business owners, small business owners, entrepreneurs, creators, inventors who build the economy. he thinks he builds the economy. yeah, you know, why doesn't he go to turkey or china to talk like that? that's not how things work here. the united states and conservatives used to think that way. on the very end on january 6th, he claims everybody was around him. no, everybody abandoned him. most of the competent people left the white house as you know because you wrote the book on january 6th. his family members had abandoned him because he was so crazy. barr had left, checked out after the stolen election fiasco.

even on january 6th, donald trump was literally alone in the white house with everyone else around him saying, "stop the riot. stop the riot. stop the riot. stop the riot." all the testimony against donald trump in all of these cases are from trump employees. him saying, oh, there are ten people who love me for every one, no, everyone hated him, thought he was a traitor or thought his actions on january 6th were unforgivable. >> yeah, the interview last night incoherent and, as we'll get into, maybe incriminating from donald trump. but it is a great point on january 6th. by the end, he was isolated and alone. people forget, there was a major covid outbreak in the west wing a few weeks before then. a lot of the senior staff who hadn't already resigned, at minimum, they were working from home. they weren't there because people had gotten sick or they were quarantining.

it was trump, mark meadows, ivanka trump still in the build and go a few others, and trump holed up in the private study he has off the oval office. there was a dining room. there was a bank of televisions, and he loved to show off the super tivo to the guests, which was probably the proudest thing he had while in office. that's where he watched the rye yo riots on january 6th. it's where he rewound the footage so he could watch again the most violent moments, according to people who witnessed some of this, and seemed to be cheering on the supporters. he certainly didn't lift a finger to stop them until he was finally persuaded to do so by his aides. but this is loyalty for donald trump, it's a one-way street. he demands it but doesn't give it in return. we saw him flip-flop on all the senior staffers, all those cabinet members, and that's why, in part, so many of them are so happy to testify against him right now. the people closest to him see it. the ten people who claim to love him, they're probably the same

ones who have tears in their eyes and call him "sir" every time they see him backstage. >> yeah. >> this interview was even more than incoherent and impossibly incriminating. you could really see a difference here when he sat down with bret baier. the lights on him when he was held to his questions. at the town hall earlier, he had the audience with him, did his shtick, and this is different. you see something in his eyes and his face, as well, because this interview did not go well for him. donald trump doing what most criminal defense attorneys advise their client against doing, speaking publicly about the charges against them. in an interview on fox news, the former president defended himself in the classified documents case, and in one of his claims, trump cited a "new york times" article, insisting the only way the national archives and records administration could get the

documents back from him would have been to essentially beg for them. it is unclear to which specific article he is referring to. take a look. >> i have every right to have those boxes. this is purely a presidential records act. this is not a criminal thing. in fact, "the new york times" at a story the other day, that the only way this stuff could be back would be, "please, please could we have it back." >> they did ask for it. >> no. i gave them some. >> they said, "can we have the documents back?" then they went to doj to subpoena you to get it back. >> which they've never done before. >> right. why not just hand them over then? >> because i had boxes. i want to go through the boxes and get all my personal things out. i don't want to hand that over yet. i was very busy, as you've sort of seen. >> yeah. according to the indictment, you tell the aide to move to other locations after telling your lawyers to say you'd fully

supplied with the subpoena when you hadn't. >> before i send boxes over, i have to take my things out. these boxes were interspersed with all sorts of things. golf shirts, clothing, pants, shoes. there were many things. i would say -- >> did -- >> not that i know of. everything was declassified. >> according to the indictment, you were here add bedminster on july 21st, 2021, after you were no longer president, and you were recorded saying that you had a document detailing a plan of attack on another country that was prepared by the u.s. military for you when you were president. the iran attack plan. you remember that? >> ready? >> you were recorded. >> it wasn't a document. >> okay. >> i had lots of paper. i had copies of newspaper articles. i had copies of magazines. >> i know. this is specifically a quote. you're quoted on the recording saying the document was secret, adding that you could have declassified it while you were president. but, quote, now i can't. you know, this is still secret, highly confidential.

the indictment says the recording and the testimony from people in the room said you showed it to people there that day. you say -- >> it was just the opposite. >> -- on the tape you can't declassify it. >> it was because i wasn't president. i never made any bones about that. when i'm not president, i can't declassify that. >> that's what you said, you could have declassified. >> i said no. bret, there was no document. it was a massive amount of papers and everything else, talking about iran and other things. it may have been held up or may not, but that was not a document. i didn't have a document, per se, there was nothing to declassify. these were newspaper stories and articles. >> first of all, let's be very clear, the transcript of what donald trump said to an aide was, "i have this document," basically, "and i could have declassified it when i was president. but i can't declassify it now.

that's a shame that i can't." he's not talking about newspaper articles. he was bouncing back and forth. >> later, he said it is, maybe it isn't, it is. >> golf clothing, pants, shoes, really? >> bret baier, to his credit, goes, "iran war plans?" >> yeah. >> trump goes, i had golf shirts, clothing, pants, shoes. bret interrupts and goes, "iran war plans?" ? >> it was a good interview, bret baier. to put that into perperspective trump bounced between defenses there, sometimes saying the documents had been declassified, sometimes saying there were no documents at all, maybe there were some. >> he went from saying, yeah, there are none and that he couldn't declassify them, admitting he can't declassify documents when he's not president. >> yeah. he said government officials could have asked for the

documents back, which they did, since 2021, and trump said he was too busy to separate the classified material from his golf shirts, while allegedly ordering a staffer to move boxes to other locations. after the interview aired, fox news chief political analyst brit hume said trump's defense would not hold up in a court of law. watch. >> his answers on the matters of the law seem to me to be diverging on incoherent. he seemed to be saying the documents were his and he didn't give them back when requested to do so and when they were subpoenaed because he wasn't ready to, he hasn't sorted them and separated the classified information or whatever from his golf shirts, whatever he was saying. it wasn't clear what he was saying, but he seemed to believe the documents were his, that he declassified them, evidence to the contrary, and, therefore, he could do whatever he wanted with them, which i don't think is going to hold up in court. >> yeah, none of that is going

to hold up in court. brit is absolutely right, elise. it was incoherent. i must say, incoherent, incriminating, and stupid. i say that by saying donald trump actually wants people to believe that in his transcript, he is looking at a document and telling an aide, "i can't declassify this now. i could have when i was president of the united states, but i can't now." later in the interview, why, in 2022 -- he lost the election in 2020. in 2022, why did he hide the documents? because he had golf shirts, clothing, pants, and shoes inside cases with nuclear information, war plans against iran, and some of america's greatest vulnerabilities, all in

there with mar-a-lago golf shirts. >> packing up my trunk in afghanistan one time, documents just found their way in with my clothing, just casually. it happens all the time. this is beyond bizarre. i think we are hammering in on all these i's here. incompetent, out of touch with reality. also, just plain idiotic. i mean, this has gotten to the point of, he's talking in circles. i don't know why he is talking, first of all. he has no reason to be going out doing these interviews and incriminating himself. >> idiotic. >> the whole episode is idiotic because it could have all been avoided. he got a pass. he was told, "you can give these documents back," yet he wouldn't do it. so he is trying to go up against biden and create this narrative that biden is out of it.

he's old and that he is incompetent, when what is he doing with his own counternarrative? >> richard, "the washington post" broke the story about, again, what we've been saying all along, the great irony when, you know, trumpers say, oh, there is this double standard from the justice department, as "the washington post" showed yesterday. there is a double standard. there's one standard that every government official is held to, who would immediately be, you know, arrested, then there's the standard they held donald trump to. dragged their feet for over a year, and the fbi dragging their feet, not even wanting to get these documents on nuclear secrets, not even wanting to go in to see all the boxes that he had, and donald trump saying, "oh, it's worse for me. this has never happened before." of course, it never happened because, again, he lost in 2020.

in 2021, he is still lying. in 2022, he is still lying about having some of the most government secrets. >> you're being unfair here. all those of us late to tee off, we're rushing to the golf course, you grab a shirt, grab a war plan, it's hard. it really is. you have to put this in perspective. >> yeah. >> by the way -- >> you of all people, yeah. >> richard of all people would know this. you know, this is really, i mean, this is important that you are talking about this and making light of it, because you actually handled america's most closely held secrets. you understand, to a much greater degree than i do, but i understand that other people who served in the government, whether in the white house or the armed service committee or the intel committee, understand. marco rubio, for instance,

understands better than anybody that this was a grave, grave lack of judgment, which is criminal. >> some would say is a criminal act, actually. >> let me say, richard, would be criminal for anybody else who did this. >> that's the point. what you see here, the justice department, everybody went the extra mile, then the extra mile after the extra mile, not to bring charges. to basically say, "look, i know everyone is equal under the law, but we're realists here. you're the former president of the united states. who knows what you will be doing again. please give the documents back because we don't want to do something that's going to open us up of charges being weaponized for obstruction of justice." basically, they gave donald trump all this rope, and he wouldn't use it. so either he's really, really

sabotaging himself, whatever word you want to use, or he decided to use it politically. they went out of their way not to press charges at a pace he could have arguably said he was too busy? i don't know how many rounds he's played since he was president, but my guess is he could have squeezed in a little time for a document search. something doesn't add up here. >> and everybody around him says he knew what were in the boxes. they called them his beautiful mind boxes. he was obsessed with them and knew what was in the boxes. again, he held the boxes. i know people understand this. i want to say, for the supporters of donald trump watching this show -- >> i have a question about that. >> -- and you're out there. any member of congress from ted cruz to bernie sanders that got

briefed and took three documents -- not all these bock boxes, not thousands -- but took three classified documents would get a call the next day from the fbi. or they'd show up in their offices. it'd be immediate. i was talking to a cia analyst over the weekend who said if he mishandled one document, though he was a career cia guy, he would lose his job that day. might not get arrested for one, but they'd be there knocking on his door the next day. they give trump years, year and a half. he keeps ignoring them. now, he goes on tv. you know what? why don't we bring in barbara mcquaid. she is, of course, former u.s. attorney. barbara, we've sort of summarized donald trump's interview with bret baier last night as incoherent, incriminating, and idiotic on so many levels.

talk about how he keeps putting himself one step closer to jail every time he does one of these rambling interviews. >> yeah, any lawyer would tell him to stop talking about this matter, but he can't help himself. i think he thinks he can explain it all away. this interview did a very good job of pinning him down. one of the things he admitted to is he kept them even after he knew he needed to return them because he needed time to review them. when he was asked about why he moved them around, he essentially admitted to obstruction of justice, and said the reason he did it is he needed to go through them. i mean, imagine if tax day comes and goes, and you say you didn't file your taxes because you were very busy. it doesn't fly under the law. these are the nation's most serious secrets. it's like holding nuclear material. every second you have it, you're holding people to risk.

there's a risk these could end up in the wrong hands. every day that goes by puts our nation at risk. i think this evidence, this recording is very likely to be played before a jury at trial. >> barbara, let's press a little further there. what stood out to you last night in terms of what could, frankly, be admissible at a trial? it almost feels like trump borderline confessing to what he is being charged with. how devastating is this, potentially, for his defense? >> i think it is very powerful evidence. i think the hardest thing to prove in most cases, but especially a case like this, is willfulness. for most crimes, ignorance of the law is no defense. but for certain crimes, including mishandling classified information, there is an additional level of willfulness that is proving what you did was illegal and you knew it was illegal. so that little clip where donald trump explains about his understanding that he can no longer declassify documents after he leaves the white house says he understands what it

means to handle classified documents. he knows that these are regulated by certain laws. for him to say at trial, if there were to be some defense, that the government has failed to prove the requisite intent, they'll play this tape. i think a jury will find beyond a reasonable doubt that he absolutely knew what he was doing was illegal. >> gene, the government has trump coming and going as far as intent goes and knowledge of the law. yes, they have him on tape saying, you know, as a former president, i can't declassify this material. i can't declassify this document. it's a shame, right? so they've got him as an ex-president understanding that. as president, they have testimony of donald trump understanding the declassification process. they have somebody that had briefed him and they have more evidence from more staff members that donald trump knew exactly what was required to declassify a document. unlike what he said on sean

hannity and on other shows, he can't just wish it in his mind and make it go away, the classification document. >> he knew that. it seems like hell for a defense lawyer is a place where you have to have trump as a client for all eternity. he goes on television with bret baier and repeatedly incriminates himself on count after count after count. my question to barbara mcquaid is, what do you do? say you're one of his defense lawyers and you've watched that interview, which you surely advised him not to give, and he gaye it anyhow. you listen to what he said and how he basically confessed to a series of crimes. what do you do? how do you try to repair that damage, and is it time to talk to your client about some sort of plea agreement?

>> number one, you consider resigning, i suppose, because you have a client who won't listen to you, which is every lawyer's nightmare. maybe you dissect it for him and explain to him in very gory detail exactly how harmful that was. these are the elements of the offense. this is what government will have to prove at trial. when you say these things, this is evidence that they will play in court. perhaps that is one way. i think any normal defendant, any normal lawyer would absolutely be talking about a plea. i can't imagine the government is going to agree to the kind of conditions that donald trump would want in exchange. they are going to want prison time because anybody else would get prison time. or they'll want, which the justice department permits, an agreement not to seek higher office. he's just not going to agree to those kinds of things. maybe as we get closer to the date and he realizes that serious prison time is at stake, those things may look for attractive than they do now.

>> don't know how he couldn't realize that right now. former u.s. attorney barbara mcquaid, thank you very much. >> barbara also, her podcast. >> i love it. >> come on. >> justice and law, it's amazing. still ahead on "morning joe," janis mackey frayer joins us live from beijing following her interview with blinken amid the first trip to china by a u.s. secretary of state in five years. plus, we'll dig into a new report of a failed plot by the kremlin to kill an informant for the u.s. government who was living in florida. also ahead, democratic congressman ted lieu is our guest. he is here to talk about his bill to regulate artificial intelligence. coming up, we have more disturbing footage from donald trump's interview with bret baier on fox news talking about foreign polpolicy. we'll have that after the break. >> what do you make of the biden administration policy to saudi arabia? >> it's terrible. saudi arabia, they're friends of

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search 900 miles east of cape cod. among the missing is british billionaire haymish harding, who flew to space on one of jeff bezos' rockets last year. he holds several guinness world records, including the longest time spent in the deepest part of the ocean on a single dive. according to the u.s. coast guard, the group has about three days worth of oxygen. >> what a terrible, terrible story. >> we'll be following that. we have more now from former president trump's interview last night on fox news. he was asked about some big international affairs items, and he seemed to focus his answers on how much he says he's liked by certain foreign leaders. >> what do you make of the biden administration policy to saudi arabia? >> i think it's terrible. we've lost saudi arabia. saudi arabia, they're friends of mine. they're great people. the crown prince and the king, i got along with them incredibly. they would do anything.

they are great, great people. with putin, i have a very good relationship. i mean, i haven't spoken to him in a long while, but i had a very strong relationship. >> was he wrong to invade ukraine? >> he wouldn't have done it if it were me. he did that after i left. i thought he might do it. look, i talked to him. i said, "if you do it, there's going to be hell to pay. it's going to be a catastrophe. don't do it." he said, "no, no, you won't do it." i said i would do something, and i said, "vladimir, i will do it. i will do it." >> it is a separate country from russia. >> it is a separate country, but at one point, it wasn't. >> and crimea, is that part of the deal, should putin get crimea? >> right now, i don't talk about those deals because it'd impede a negotiation. i would have a deal done in 24 hours from the time we started. >> well, i mean, of course, his deal would be to hand ukraine over to russia.

richard haass, the stupidity, the lunacy here is really frightening. again, we have to keep reminding ourselves, this guy was once commander in chief of the united states of america, and it is very frightening. let's start with the saudis, "they're friends of mine. they're great, great people. they would do anything." i mean, yeah, they would give $2 billion to family members and also, if you remember, when he was running for president, he said he loved the saudis because they spent hundreds of millions of dollars on his toys. i just want to say, i'm making no connections, but i think investigators and others would be fools not to at least ask these questions. who would be the most interested? who would have the greatest need, other than the united states, to have u.s. intelligence, highly classified intelligence on war plans against iran?

who more than saudi arabia on the entire planet? >> that would certainly be worth exploring, shall we say. can i just say, the degree of personalization or narcissism, it is almost like it is a different school of foreign policy. usually, you have debates between realists and idealists or whatever. this is an entirely different school. whether it was in the leader of north korea, the love letters, president xi of china, the crown prince of saudi arabia, the idea of his relationship delivering these countries to us. on his watch with saudi arabia, the iranians attacked saudi arabia and the united states did nothing, despite his great personal relationship, which is one of the reasons the saudis grew so alienated. saudis were doing what they were doing in yemen despite us telling them not to. now, i'm not saying it is going to work, joe, but the united states and saudi arabia are

actually negotiating, potentially, a really intimate relationship, where we would offer certain types of security assurances and they'd move toward peace with israel. it is not as though we've quote, unquote, lost saudi arabia. this stuff about russia and ukraine is in the preposterous department. >> oh, my god. >> the idea that he could just pick up the phone and deliver vladimir putin and peace within 24 hours is this side of preposterous. >> and suggesting the ukrainians would somehow stop fighting after being attacked, invaded, is also insanity. what he'd do, of course, is what we wanted to do the first time, which is blow to pieces the nato alliance. others would continue helping, and donald trump would have the united states go it alone and do everything he could, everything he could to allow vladimir putin

to have, what did he say, that putin liked it better that way, when ukraine was part of russia. richard, i want to talk to you about his closest allies, the people he loves the most, the people he says he loves the most and the leaders that he says love him the most. it's never from any democratic country, as you said. it used to be president xi. he said so many positive thinks about president xi, including early on in the pandemic, that on behalf of america, he thanks him because he is being so transparent on covid. his love for vladimir putin, you know, we saw it here in december 2015 in a heated exchange with him. his love for the north korean tyrant. one of the most blood thirsty tyrants on the globe.

saudi arabia, they are great, great people. let me tell you something, there are americans, including myself, who believe that we have to have a relationship with saudi arabia, but that doesn't mean we call those who chopped up a "washington post" reporter in a thousand pieces and murdered him because they didn't like what he was saying, we don't call them great, great people. yet, what is it about donald trump, that he sees authoritarians that he most closely identifies with, who he loves and claims loves him? >> i guess i have two reactions to that. one, i think your question was more rhetorical than not. obviously, there is almost a certain sympathy or empathy with the authoritarian leaders, donald trump, as we've seen has authoritarian tendencies himself. indeed, if he were re-elected, i think there is a real question

about how illiberal american democracy would become. that's a serious issue. the other thing, joe, i'd actually cut him some slack if, and it is a big if which he never met, he actually could have delivered. it would have been one thing if all those love letters with the leader of north korea resulted in any constraints on north korea's nuclear and missile programs, but they did not. or with china. or with russia. or with saudi arabia. if in any case he showed his personal relationships could actually influence their behavior in a way that was more constructive and more consistent with american interests. the problem with mr. trump's foreign policy is it failed to do that. you had all the personalization without results. the bottom line is it didn't produce. >> elise, he is offering a bit of a preview of what a second term foreign policy would look like. certainly, the war in ukraine is

not going to end in 24 hours, but it does seem like he would dramatically cut, entirely cut u.s. aid to ukraine. he very well may blow up nato. he would side with authoritarians around the globe. that's why it's interviews like this, why vladimir putin looks at the battle and war in ukraine saying, "this hasn't gone anywhere near like i thought it would, but if i stay the course, if i try to run out the clock, i might get a friend back in the white house." >> well, 24 hours he's going to negotiate with vladimir putin, and he had four years and couldn't build a wall? this comes back to something mika and joe were saying the other day. the only thing that explains donald trump in basically every instance is monday. i'm looking at the front page of "the new york times," "trump ties money and politics into a mond deal," that the saudis government real estate group brought him into the deal in

oman. he made $5 million already. this was before he announced 2024. there's money in it with these dictators, with authoritarians. they throw money at a problem. his son-in-law, jared kushner, got a sweetheart investment, even though he is a very unproved investor of upwards of, i think, $2 billion, that he hasn't even been able to execute yet, just because the saudis are hedging. they think that trump might come back. i think when we look at all this, it followed the money. that's the answer. >> coming up, there's -- >> always, always follow the money. >> more to show you from donald trump's revealing interview with fox news, including his refusal to give up the big lie. we'll look at new reporting on the justice department's resistance to opening an investigation into trump's role in the january 6th riot at the capitol. >> you know how -- i mean,

justice is supposed to be blind. >> i know. >> it's not. it's just not. i've got to say, i defend the fbi. i know it's political, but for a year, again, they gave donald trump preferential treatment, were afraid to move against him because of all of the noise out there. because of websites run by chinese religious cults, because of the ground noise from freaks, insurrectionists and weirdos. they didn't do their job for over a year. for over a year, they were scared to prove that in america, no man is above the law. so they dragged their feet. >> "morning joe" is coming right back. rsv could cut it short. ♪ rsv is a contagious virus that usually causes mild symptoms

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what do you say to the female independent suburban voter who feels that way, to win her back?

>> first of all, i won in 2020 by a lot. let's get it straight. i won in 202. >> you know that's not what the vote shows. >> look at truth to vote, where we have people stuffing the ballot boxes on tapes. >> mr. president, those were all looked into. >> wait a minute, recent, fbi twitter. let's go to recent. the 51 agents, all corrupt stuff. >> understand about the hunter biden, all fair things. >> that's cheating on the election. >> you lost the 2020 election. >> bret, you look at all of the stuffed ballots. you take a look at all of the things, including things like the 51 intelligence agents. >> there were recounts in all of the swing states. there was not significant widespread -- >> we were trying to get real recounts. >> there was not widespread corruption, not a sense of that. there were more than 50 lawsuits by your lawyers, someju judges . >> look at wisconsin, they practically admitted it was

rigged. other states are doing the same right now, and it's going on. >> there are reviews of every case of potential voter fraud in six battle ground states, and there were fewer than 475 cases that -- >> they didn't look at the right things, bret. >> are you going to be -- >> they were counting ballots, not the authenticity of the ballot. the ballots were fake ballots. >> i asked -- >> this was a rigorous election. >> this is how you're going to tell the independent suburban woman voter to vote for you? >> i think we're doing well. i had a poll recently. i'll show you. >> i watch the numbers. >> i showed you. we were leading by tremendous numbers. >> you know polls change. >> leading with women. >> huh? >> polls change. they changed in 2016 to your favor. >> i thought i was doing well from the beginning but, you know. >> but they change, the polls. >> wow. i mean -- >> that was an incredible interview. yeah, gene robinson, he didn't

look well. >> no. >> for the suburban voter bret kept talking about, he looked like a rambling, raging old man. >> and a liar. >> looked really good. >> mm-hmm. >> the thing is, if he is to win, and this is what we keep saying on this show, he has to win back the suburban voters in atlanta, detroit, milwaukee, phoenix. nothing he did there, nothing he did there is going to do anything but drive them further away. that is just really, really disturbing stuff. >> yeah, and it was kind of pathetic in a way. >> pathetic. >> he was insisting on this fantasy that everybody knows is a fantasy, and good on bret for calling him on it repeatedly with facts. those are facts that everybody

knows. recounts in every swing state. judges that he appointed looked at the lawsuits and dismissed them because there was nothing there. everybody knows that now. everybody knows he lost the election, except, apparently, him. he obviously knows it, too, but this idea that he can never acknowledge the reality that he lost the election, i don't see how he thinks that keeping up that fiction is a winning formula for him. it's not going to get the independent voters back. >> not at all. jonathan lemire, you wrote the book on the big lie. donald trump is still wallowing in the big lie, despite the fact that fox news in the form of bret baier just deboned him. deboned all of his arguments. talked about the federal judges that found -- that there was no

widespread voter fraud. the supreme court found no widespread voter fraud. as he said, recounts in every swing state. multiple recounts. again, bret is telling him this, and he looks dazed and confused. >> most of the recounts produced more votes for joe biden, not donald trump. and it is interesting here. and credit to bret baier for the interview. we should note, it is a media story, too, that fox news is being tough with trump. of course, perhaps, we should say, impacted because of the $787 million they were forced to pay dominion. there was more litigation coming, so that is probably why they're being more careful with what they say and not letting trump run rough shot. but trump is used to getting the friendly audience, like in the town hall last month or when an interviewer doesn't push him. when he was pushed here, he

didn't have a good answer. maybe it's a preview for what some candidates could be doing some debate season. could this be chris christie? could this be governor desantis, whoever it might be, taking it to him? at least, right now, it doesn't seem like trump has a good response. >> to your point, jonathan lemire, my question for you, joe, is in the primary, and we were talking about this yesterday. think about primary candidates who are up against candidates who believe that the insurrection and donald trump won the election, whether it is donald trump himself, couldn't primary candidates like chris christie, like the others, say, listen, you don't have to believe the media. you don't have to believe me. believe donald trump. believe his words. then pick three things. i picked three. he's not a patriot. he said on national television that he would take dirt on a political rival from a foreign leader. he said that. those are his words. he is a misogynist. think of what he has done with

stormy daniels, okay? nobody denies that that happened. he says a woman, where he was found liable of sexual assault, was not his type and tells her attorney to her face, "not my type." these are his words. finally, say it, he's a criminal. it's not what the doj is saying about the documents. it's what he is saying about the documents. he's saying that this classified information, nuclear war plans, he's saying those are his. those belong to the american people. i plan to follow the law. i plan to respect women and respect democratic values. couldn't that work in a primary against trump? aren't people tired of him? use his words instead of everybody else's. >> something else you talked about, deeply disturbing that led to his indictment but

acquittal in the senate, it's water under the bridge for most republicans. >> choose anything. >> well, what you say is you keep it as simple as possible. he store nuclear secrets. this guy stole nuclear secrets. he admitted he stole nuclear secrets. hammer him on that. talk about the defense, the national security things. the key is, and i've always said this, if you're going after donald trump, or if you're going after any bully, or if you're going after any incumbent or somebody who is ahead, you can't go halfway. >> right. >> i always said in congress, they never -- >> go big or go home. >> they never stop you if you're going 90 miles an hour. the fact is, most of these people running against trump have been going 12 miles an hour on a scooter. >> exactly. >> it's putting down the street. no, you have to do what it looks like chris christie is about to do. >> yeah. >> go 90 miles an hour. go after him hard. >> drive the train.

>> drive the train of facts straight, straight to him, and you have to keep hammering him on this stuff. if you're mike pence and go halfway, you'll lose. nikki haley, halfway, you're going to lose. tim scott, halfway, you're going to lose, unless you're always running for vice president for donald trump. but he will never forgive you for being 90% loyal to him. that's a losing proposition. you go 90 miles an hour and go at him hard, or you don't run the race. >> all right. >> i just need to really quickly -- i'm so sorry. richard haass, really quickly, we know the fbi is political. we know the cia is political. they're human beings in the fbi and cia. they're political. there is a new "washington post" report that is deeply disturbing, that the department of justice continued to drag their feet. the fbi continued to drag their feet on investigating donald trump. wouldn't even say his name, like he was valdamort, or the

investigation into the january 6th riots. the fbi reluctant to go after these documents, these nuclear secrets. very reluctant and scared to do so. again, we know the fbi is political. they're political on both sides. you look at the republicans. they played the ref so well over the last couple years, they have the justice department, the fbi scared of their own shadow, despite the fact in the 2016 campaign, the new york office of the fbi leaked nonstop against hillary clinton. continued leaking, trying to hurt her political campaign. comey at the fourth of july in '76 -- in 2016 i mean, comey coming out and actually saying that nobody would indict hillary clinton under these circumstance. in a first of its kind interview

running the fbi, they indicted her politically and attacked her politically. then, of course, ten days before the race, even donald trump admitted this is how he won. comey writes this letter, the clumsiest, most reckless letter i think we've ever seen ten days before the election. so, yeah, it's political on both sides. yet, you have the fbi and justice department afraid to go after secrets, afraid to go after the defense documents, afraid to mention donald trump's name internally in relation to the january 6th investigation. someone over there has to grow a spine. >> the irony, joe, if you listen to republicans on the hill, they're basically claiming that the justice department, merrick garland, are politicizing their departments and it is selective prosecution. >> they've been playing the

refs, and the refs have been stupid enough to listen to insurrectionists, weirdos, freaks and cult members who are the refs, who were screaming and shouting at them. >> it is unprecedented, they have to be careful. >> at the end of the day, as bad as the documents are, and i hear you, joe, it is bad, you know, all of us who have spent our careers dealing with classified material. >> mm-hmm. >> january 6th, donald trump was a direct participant in trying to undermine american democracy. that is about as fundamental as we get. >> yes. >> the idea we haven't seen legal consequences of that, that, to me, is the single greatest act of omission here. >> that hurts. >> that's ultimately the most serious thing donald trump tried to do to the united states of america. >> well, for -- >> that we know of. >> for someone who handled a classified document and understands what the consequences would be if they mishandled a single document, it

is shocking, including the people sucking up to donald trump still. marco rubio knows what would happen if he took a box of classified documents home. his career would be over in a day. eugene robinson, this investigative article, extraordinary investigative article was in "the washington post," your paper. we'll give you the final word. >> i urge everybody to read this piece. you know, it's a long read, but it's absolutely worth it. it is stunning. the degree to which they treated donald trump with kid gloves and did not -- you know, this idea, this false idea that joe biden and merrick garland were, you know, raring to go after their political opponent, donald trump, could not be further from the truth. in fact, the fbi and justice was

absolutely reluctant, unwilling to pursue what seems to most of us like obvious, serious historic crimes that were committed by this man, donald trump. finally, essentially got dragged into it. >> this is what trump republicans have done. it's the firehose of falsehoods. sane, rational people take it for what it is. it is disheartening, the people inside the fbi and the justice department were scared of their own shadow, because insurrectionists, weirdos, freaks, trump cult members were spewing lies nonstop. again, spewing lies and claiming donald trump had a vendetta in 2016 when the fbi elected donald trump in 2016. again, i'm not shocked that the fbi is political, that the new

york office was all in for donald trump. i'm not shocked. human beings run the offices. just like the cia, human beings are in the cia. there are political leaks and there have been for as long as these agencies existed. it just happens. but it is their job to play it straight. play it as straight as they possibly can. when you're afraid to even mention donald trump's name internally, based on a riot that he started to overthrow american democracy, somebody needs to be talking this morning about what the hell happened. and why they were treating trump like voldemort and not everyone mentioning his name, while sending working class americans, who were part of donald trump's conspiracy, to jail. do they deserve to be in jail? yeah. you beat the hell out of cops,

you deserve to be in jail. but the guy that got you there, as they sat in front of judges and saying, "i was following donald trump's orders," that guy, it's all right to investigate him. you can even mention his name. you won't melt. >> yeah, he did say "go down there, i'll meet you there." >> it is going to be wild. >> to richard's point, as we get to four minutes past the top of the hour, it appears january 6th might be the worst thing he's done to this country. i guess we can only hope. you have to keep in mind that he had nuclear secrets. he had war plans. he had boxes and boxes of documents, and he knew the government wanted them back. he knew the fbi wanted them back. he knew the doj wanted the documents returned. the national archives wanted the documents resulted. it turns out these documents were highly classified and really important and super sensitive, and he knew they wanted them back. the question i have is what did

he do with them in the time he had them because they took so long. >> by the way, we still don't know that. we know that donald trump is making a lot of money from saudi arabia. i think somebody probably needs to investigate that. we know he had it for a very long time. what should donald trump's opponents do? they should say four words. put it on a bunker sticker. i'd put it behind me when i spoke in a republican primary. "he stole nuclear secrets." >> okay. then -- >> he stole nuclear secrets. >> believe his words. trump supporters don't believe anybody. >> he admitted it. >> do you believe donald trump is the question you need to ask them. if they don't believe anybody, including donald trump, what exactly do you support? richard and eugene, thank you very much. we're going to go to six minutes past the top of the hour right now. starting out with donald trump

claiming to have hired the best people. >> only the best people. >> only the best people and then trashing them after they leave his administration. take a look. >> we are going to appoint mad dog mattis as our secretary of the feds. they say he is the closest thing to general george patten that we have, and it is about time. it's about time. mattis was a highly overrated general, didn't do a good job on isis. he was fired by president obama, and i fired him also. rex tillerson, secretary of state. going to do a great job. he is respected all over the world, and he'll go down as one of our great secretaries. >> in an angry tweet, he called tillerson dumb as a rock, ill equipped to be secretary of

state. >> mark esper was a highly respected gentleman, great career, west point, harvard. a tremendous talent. acting secretary of defense. >> he has said, quote, you are a lightweight, a figure head. he said mark esper was weak, totally ineffective. he said he would do anything i wanted. >> secretary, you've been so fantastic in so many ways. transportation, it's moving along. you've done a fantastic job for me and for the country. i appreciate all that you do. >> in his post on truth social, trump said, mcconnell, quote, has a death wish and must immediately seek help and advice from his china-loving wife. >> by the way -- >> i can't. >> -- we go through the other things. when he puts "death wish" in all caps, he's calling out to his supporters to kill mitch

mcconnell. >> jonathan lemire and elise jordan are still with us. joining us, mara gaye of the editorial board for "the new york times." and msnbc political analyst and former senator claire mccaskill joins us. in the interview on fox news last night, host bret baier pressed donald trump about that long list of staffers who no longer support him and several more who trump himself has attacked and called names. >> we put people in that were great, and we put people in that weren't. i now know washington probably better than anybody. i know the good ones and the bad ones. we will have really great, strong people. i already know who they are. we will have really great, strong people. >> okay. in 2016, you said that. i'm going to surround myself with only the best and -- >> i did do this. we had the best economy. >> mike pence is running against

you. investor of the united nations, nikki haley, running against you. former secretary of state mike pompeo is not supporting you. you mentioned john bolton, he is not supporting you either. you mentioned attorney general bill barr, says you shouldn't be president again. calls you the narcissist and troubled man. you recently called barr a gutless pig. second defense secretary is not supporting you, called you irresponsible. this week, you and your white house -- called your white house chief of staff john kelly weak and ineffective and born with a small brain. you called your acting white house chief of staff mulvaney a born loser. rex tillerson dumb as a rock. and your first defense secretary, james mattis, the world's most overrated general. white house press secretary milquetoast, and you referred to elaine chao as mitch mcconnell's china-loving wife. why did you hire them?

>> i hired ten to one that were fantastic. we had a great economy. we had phenomenal people in charge of the economy. i'm not a fan of milley and the certain television people, but i knocked out isis. i defeated isis. they said, mattis, it'd take three years and i don't think we can do it. i did it in, like, four weeks. >> there's a lot of people who praise you for your policies. i said that. >> that's true. i mean, you went through a list. don't forget, for every one you say, i had ten that love us. >> okay, there's so many things to get to there. >> wow. >> i have to quickly, before we go on, first of all, and this is what he does. everybody lets it go. when he was in the white house, people let it go. even people on this network say, of course, the economy is the best it's ever been under donald trump. it's not. it's just not. before covid, gdp growth under

donald trump was so behind so many other presidents post war. even jimmy carter. the economy grew faster under jimmy carter than under donald trump, all right? temperatures who attack jimmy carter all the time, yeah, no. jimmy carter did a better job on the economy than donald trump. it grew faster than him, as it did with several other presidents. first of all, let's lay that lie to rest. then the way he mismanaged covid made him actually the worst president on the economy since herbert hoover. by the names, his acts and omissions -- >> that's too kind. >> -- donald trump was the worst president on the economy since herbert hoover. this is in data that you could look up from trump administration websites. >> he knew covid was coming. he knew it'd kill tens of thousands of people.

he withheld the information. >> he lied. >> he lied. >> it was murderous. >> who paid for that economically? all of us did. every american did. millions died. that's one thing. second thing, i defeated isis. i've never heard a commander in chief say something so stupid in all my life. no, the men and women in uniform that donald trump and trumpers regularly attack are men and women in uniform who risked their lives. they defeated isis under barack obama's leadership, under donald trump's leadership. again, that whole "i defeated," it's grotesque. >> it really is. >> it's un-american, and it explains why donald trump would think it was his army, they were toy soldiers he could play with, and they're his, and why he

thinks nuclear secrets were also his. my military, no, donald. not your military. it is america's military. you didn't do anything, i held back. >> thank you. >> you didn't do anything that barack obama didn't start and that our men and women in uniform didn't execute. they are the ones to get all the credit, not presidents. then i wanted to go through all of that. defeated isis, and then -- sorry, i was going to go to claire. do you want to go to claire? >> yes, actually. but i want to play this for her because i think she might have something to say about perhaps this being used in court, as well. also in the fox news interview, trump tried to defend himself in the classified documents case. in one of his claims, trump cited a "new york times" article, insisting the only way

the national archives and records administration could get the documents back from him wosk to essentially beg for them. it is unclear which specific article he was referring to, but take a listen. >> i have every right to have those boxes. this is purely a presidential records act. this is not a criminal thing. in fact, "the new york times" of all had a story just the other day that the only way nara could ever get this stuff, this back, would be, "please, please could we have it back?" >> they asked. >> because we -- >> they did ask for it. they said, "can you give the documents back?" >> we were talking. >> they went to doj to subpoena you to give them back. >> which they've never done before. >> right. why not hand them over then? >> i had boxes. i want to go through the boxes and get my personal things out. i don't want to hand that over to nara yet, and i was very

busy, as you sort of seen. >> you tole the aide to move to other locations after telling your lawyers you fully complied with the subpoena, when you hadn't. >> before i send boxes over, i have to take my things out. those boxes were interspersed with all sorts of things, golf shirts, clothing, pants, shoes. >> iran war plans? >> not that i know of. not that i know of. everything was declassified. >> according to the indindictme you were at bedminster in july 2021 after you were no longer president, and you were recorded saying you had a document detailing a plan of attack on another country prepared by the u.s. government when you were president. the iran attack plan. you remember that? >> it wasn't a document. >> okay. >> i had lots of paper. i had copies of newspaper articles, magazines. >> this is specifically a quote. you're quotd on the recording saying the document was secret, adding you could have declassified it while you were president. quote, now i can't.

you know, this is still secret, highly confidential. the indictment cites the recording and the testimony from people in the room saying you showed it to people there that day. so you say on tape that you can't declassify it, so why have it is the question. >> when i said i couldn't declassify it now, i wasn't president. i never made bones about that. >> i could have declassified it. >> it was the a massive amount of papers and everything else, talking about iran and other things. it may have been held up or maybe not. i didn't have a document. there was nothing to declassify. these were newspaper stories, magazine stories and articles. >> his answers on the matters of the law seem to diverge on incoherent. he seemed to be saying the documents were his and he didn't give them back when requested to

do so because, you know, he wasn't ready to because he hadn't sorted them and separated the classified information or whatever from his golf shirts or whatever he was saying. it was not all together clear what he was saying, but he seemed to believe the documents were his. that he had declassified them, evidence to the contrary. therefore, he could do whatever he wanted, which i don't think will hold up in court. >> for everybody at home, you're watching the same thing this morning that the justice department is watching. you're watching the same thing that jack smith and his prosecutors are watching. donald trump, yes, was incoherent and his answers were idiotic. but more importantly, they were incriminating. claire mccaskill, you have donald trump saying, oh, i couldn't let the fbi look at my boxes. i had to hide it from them. >> my pants. >> i didn't want them sorting through things.

bret baier asks, what do you have in there you wanted to protect from them? he said, golf shirts, clothing, pants and shoes. a child could do a better job lying about, like, why they were hiding the cookie jar. this is incoherent. can you explain to viewers why this interview was so important? because it possibly moves donald trump one step closer to jail. >> first, let's let this sink in for a minute. this is almost like a fire hose, this interview. one thing really needs to kind of be separated and underlined with an exclamation point. the president of the united states thought it was okay to take documents that were highly classified, including war plans, and put them in boxes, held ter

helter skelter, with his golf shirts. that is bonkers. that is beyond irresponsible, beyond traittraitorous. it is incompetency on steroids, and it is criminal. and it is criminal. and the reason this interview is so important is, number one, bret baier was very prepared. he had receipts on everything. they were all donald trump's own words. secondly, it was on an outlet where there are still a calcified group of people that, believe it or not, actually think donald trump doesn't lie every minute of the day. so the idea that there was a wide swath of people that watched this interview, that were donald trump loyalists, you have to wonder, are they going to set aside their common sense

and intellectual capability? surely they're not so dumb as to believe the things that donald trump was saying last night. whether it was about the election or whether it was about the documents. so it is just, i think, a really important interview. it is the closest we have come in america for a set aside audience of folks that believe one way very strongly, in a polarized area of our country. for them to be confronted in a way that bret baier confronted donald trump. it'll be interesting to see if this moves the needle at all. if we have a chance, i need a minute, i was dying out here, to talk about doj and their delay. i have to at some point. i won't now, but before i leave this morning, you have to give me a chance at doj. >> i'll get back to you. i'm so angry. >> yeah. >> after everything they did in 2016.

they're listening to the refs, again, who happen to be insurrectionists, weirdos and freaks, trumpers. it is shocking they wouldn't even mention the name of the man responsible for the riots on january 6th. elise, i want to -- just something, you know, you and i, former republicans, you and i conservatives economically with a libertarian slant. you remember a couple years ago when everybody freaked out and melted down on the right when barack obama said something, you didn't build it yourself. we all built it. you don't say that to conservatives. we believe -- we never say, we did this. i did this for the economy. i'm responsible for 22 million new jobs in the '90s. we don't do it because we don't believe it. if you're a conservative, if you're a republican, traditionally what you believe is, if things go well in war,

it's because of the men and women in uniform. if the economy is doing well, it is because small business, entrepreneurs, family business. we believe it in our political soul, we believe this. listen to this interview. what does donald trump talk about? my military. i did this. i beat isis. laughable. a guy who is a coward, a bully, saying, i beat isis. a guy who dodged the draft because of alleged foot spurs. a guy who dodged the draft saying, "i beat isis," when it's the men and women in uniform risking their lives every day. it's the kurds risking their lives every day. it's our allies risking their lives, but donald trump says, "i beat isis." the economy, what does he say? my economy. we did this, we did that. my economy. which, again, is a good transition to these documents. he believes they're his nuclear secrets like they're his golf

shoes. they believe it's his war plans like he believes it's his pants. go through all of this. instead of a conservative, a small government republican, you have louis xiv who says, "i am the state." again, for people that don't understand conservatism the way it's supposed to be, going back to edmond burke, we believe it's the people that actually are the state. we believe it's the people who win wars. it's the people who fight wars and defend this country. donald trump doesn't believe that. again, how any conservative could vote for a guy who says this stuff, again, it's just mind boggling to me. joe, that's why it's surprising to me that other republicans who

want the nomination, that they don't attack donald trump from that flank, saying this is not conservative. it is not conservative to try to overthrow a democratically elected president who won a free and fair election. that is not conservative. it is not conservative for the government to -- from the left, they should be arguing when it comes to abortion, it's not conservative for the government to get involved in every faucet of health care, of telling women, of telling patients, of telling doctors what they can and can't do. i do think from the right, we don't hear enough of that argument, about conservative values and what conservative beliefs in democratic institutions, what that is. there is room, i do still think there are republicans out there who do believe in it and want the government out and who don't want an oligarch at the top of

their government. >> mara, let's talk about the other republicans, particularly republicans who are also trying to be president. seems like we were saying in the last hour, in some ways, the interview with bret baier gave a blueprint as to how you might want to approach trump on a debate stage. bret baier was delivering facts. trump by himself, not an audience cheering him on. he seemed stunned, nothing great an the documents and the claims that he won the 2020 election. do you think it's something candidates might try? >> what these candidates do with this blueprint, as you said, that bret baier has given them, is going to be interesting. it depends on what the appetite is among republican voters to disengage from donald trump. i mean, one of the strangest things is you watch this interview and think, this is a weak candidate. this is not a powerhouse who is

undefeatable. but, yet, you know, republicans for years now have been so averse to really going directly at him. because there is such a hold that this man has on the base. when you realize, watching these interviews, this is not about policy, this is not about conservative, what this is about is a cultive personality. it is about fascism. what is that hold? does donald trump really have that? is that something these republicans can breakthrough on? nikki haley, chris christie, are they really going to take this and run with it? i mean, i guess we'll find out in the coming days. gosh, here's your shot. >> here is your opening, mara. you make a great point. he looked weak and jittery, a little crazy but weak is the biggest word here to be used to describe donald trump's demeanor in that interview. primary candidates, use his

words. quote him about the documents. move forward and get a republican in there, a real republican, a real conservative. but you have to move fast. claire, you wanted to talk about the doj, so let's talk about this "washington post" article. the doj resisted opening an investigation into former president trump's role in january 6th, the insurrection, for more than a year. that's according to "the post" which reports that attorney general merrick garland was first briefed on the events of january 6th hours after he took office in march of 2021. however, there was no mention of trump or his advisers' roles in connection to the riots in the briefing. it would be more than a year before fbi agents and prosecutors would officially open an investigation into the former president's role in this

january 6th, this violence that you see happening on our nation's capitol there in that video. a year! >> he called them there. >> they refused to specifically name trump as a person of interest. the report says worries over appearing partisan, institutional caution, and clashes over how much evidence was sufficient to investigate the actions of trump and those around him contributed to the slow pace. >> how can you be cautious when there is an attempt to overthrow the united states government? >> instead, officials pushed for a methodical approach, starting with the rioters, the people who followed trump, and going up the ladder. however, the plan was not supported by everyone within the department, as some prosecutors pushed for an earlier investigation into trump. senior justice department officials, though, reportedly shut down that idea.

claire? >> first of all, let's be really clear about what happened here. i think merrick garland's motives were pure. he wanted to protect the doj from accusations of being political. there is nothing wrong with having that instinct. what is wrong is to be so nieve, to think you can ignore evidence against a president of the united states and, in the end, it'll come out okay. that's naive. as if people who supported donald trump would say, doj, you've done a good job of keeping politics out of doj. it was dumb dumb. i was like a broken record. i got pushback from some of my wonderful contributor colleagues who wanted to be more pro protech protective of doj. i said over and over again

during the j6 committee hearings, this is an embarrassment to the department of justice. make no mistake about it, the only reason that garland finally moved was not because donald trump declared for president. that's a fig leaf. it was because the j6 committee embarrassed the professionals at doj. with their fact finding, thorough investigation, with the presentation that was powerful to the american people. so the only reason we are at this place today, way later than we ever should have been, is because merrick garland was naive, and monaco didn't help him. she should have. she had more political experience. the second reason was because of the great job that liz cheney and the rest of the people on the j6 committee did, exposing the facts to the doj in real time. i just think we cannot overlook that this is very unusual for a

government investigation in congress to lap the professionals at the department of justice. not a good moment for doj. >> doj officials, you could argue, have the problem that washington leaders have. they're suffering from a terrible case of avoidance. they're avoiding dealing with donald trump for fear of looking political, for fear of looking partisan or for fear of the base. when you avoid a problem, it only gets bigger. it's gotten a lot bigger. ahead on "morning joe," on capitol hill and in the courts, republicans are mounting a sweeping legal campaign against the people studying disinformation. we'll get to the new reporting and what it means for 2024. plus, from facial recognition software to chat gpt, artificial intelligence is becoming more apparent in our daily lives. democratic congressman ted lieu wants to see ai regulated, and

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it is 37 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." president biden will be in san francisco later today to meet with artificial intelligence experts to learn more about the growing technology. this meeting comes as "politico" reports dozens of democratic strategists scattered recently to discuss the coming election. however, their focus wasn't in president biden or donald trump but, rather, how to combat disinformation spread by artificial intelligence in 2024. currently, there are no restrictions over using a.i. in political ads and campaigns are not required to disclose when

they use the technology. that has led some strategists sounding the alarm on the unregulated, new innovation. let's bring in democratic congressman ted lieu of california. he's been calling for regulations over a.i., and he is proposing a bill. we want to get to that in a moment. congressman, explain the danger of just in political campaigns, of the use of unregulated a.i. >> thank you for your question. as a recovering computer science major, i'm fascinated with a.i. and all the good things it is going to do for society. it can also cause harm, and i think that's why it is important that we have regulations and laws that allow a.i. to innovate but prevent avoidable harms and put in guardrails. we also have to be humble and understand there's a lot we don't know. as members of congress, we have to acknowledge that we have to have experts sometimes advise us on new technologies. that's why later this morning, i'm creating an a.i. commission,

that's a bipartisan bill, and it'll be carried on the senate side, as well. it'll look at what a.i. we might want to regulate and how we might want to go about doing so, including a.i. for use in political campaigns. >> congressman, speak to us about the challenges of trying to regulate something that is developing so rapidly. a.i. is expanding seemingly by the day. technology improves by the day. how hard is it going to be to wrap your arms around something that is evolving so quickly? >> that is a great question. i don't know we'd even know what we were regulating because it is moving so quickly. look at the applications that came out since chat gpd debuted. it is hundreds and probably thousands by now. some of these harms may, in fact, happen, but maybe they don't. maybe we see some new harm. i think it is good to have some

time pass. it is good to have a commission of experts advice us. if we make a mistake as a member of congress and writing legislation, you need another act of congress to correct that. >> for americans who really know nothing about this, can you talk a little bit about your greatest areas of concern? maybe some examples of ways this technology could run amuck, could cause problems? what was it that you heard that made you say, we need to look at this more closely? >> sure. as a legislative, i view this as two bodies of water. a big ocean of a.i. and the small lake. in this big ocean, there's all the a.i. we don't care about. a.i. and smart hoster as a preference for english muffins over wheat toast, we don't care about that. in the small lake, there's a.i. we care about. you ask, why would we want to care about that? first, there's a preference that might cause harm to society, such as facial regular in addition, which is amazing technology but it is bias toward

people with darker skin. if you deploy that nationwide with law enforcement agencies, you'll have a violation because minorities will be misidentified as higher rates. i introduced legislation for guardrails on that. that's an example of harm a.i. can cause. >> thank you. >> congressman, claire mccaskill here. i'm concerned about political campaigns. as you well know, the most powerful weapon in a political campaign is video of the candidate speaking in their own words. many people don't do town halls during congress because they're afraid their tracker will get them on film in a moment they say something awkward or misspeak, and it can be used against them later. i have a sense of urgency about what is going to happen in the next cycle, when people start airing commercials of candidates speaking words they never said.

what would your legislation do for that? is there any urgency to move, at least on whether you have to disclose a.i. being used in advertising? >> thank you for your question. nothing in the bill precludes congress from acting in discreet areas of a.i. regulation. i also note that there is a.i. that can counter bad a.i. for example, you have some companies working on a.i. that can authenticate videos and original images, so that could be something that campaigns can use. in addition, i support legislation that requires disclosure on ads and social media and so on. next time, for example, if you see a pro trump ad, it might say at the bottom, paid for by the kremlin. that's a disclosure we'd like to see. >> okay, yeah. that would be good. democratic congressman ted lieu of california, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. coming up on "morning joe,"

we'll be joined by nbc's janis mackey frayer who just sat down with secretary of state antony blinken in beijing. that is straight ahead on "morning joe." from prom dresses to workouts and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have

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so i called the barnes firm. i'm rich barnes. it's hard for people to k how much their accident case is worth.h barnes. t ouour juryry aorneneys hehelpou 47 past the hour. we are learning more this morning about yesterday's meeting between secretary of state antony blinken and chinese president xi jinping. before boarding a plane to london, secretary blinken said both the u.s. and china agreed to stabilize their strained relationship. however, blinken said china is not ready to restore its military communication channels with the united states. let's bring in nbc news foreign correspondent janis mackey frayer, live from beijing. janis, you sat down with secretary blinken after that meeting. what did you learn?

>> reporter: well, the objective in coming here was to try to stabilize relations between the u.s. and china. expectations for this visit for the secretary of state were actually quite low. again, the idea was to reach a point where the u.s. could avoid conflict. >> good afternoon. >> reporter: a high stakes visit to stabilize relations between the u.s. and china. secretary of state antony blinken meeting with china's president xi jinping after two intense days here. after that meeting, secretary blinken sat down with us and was clear, this visit had to happen. >> we were in an increasingly unstable place in our relationship. i think this is the start of a process to put a little more stability into it. >> reporter: with friction on nearly every front, including tariffs, espionage in taiwan, relations had been in near free fall. add to it growing tension over a

chinese spy base on cuba. >> i repeatedly raised it. this is nothing new. >> is the administration concerned about china making it more than a spy base? >> we have concerns when they're physically taking a position that could turn into a military base of some kind. >> reporter: chinese officials have grievances, too, like u.s. export bans on technology and u.s. sanctions on several senior officials here, including xi's minister of defense. it's why china refused blinken's request to reopen military crisis lines, communication cut off by beijing last year despite dangerously close encounters between warships in the taiwan straight and military aircraft over the south china sea. something we saw in february on board another u.s. navy plane intercepted by a chinese jet. >> that's the quickest path to an inadvertent conflict. i can say that they understand very clearly the importance we attach to this.

i think it is profoundly in their interest, too. >> reporter: this was the trip secretary blinken called off when the spy balloon was shot down. i asked him, does this mean the balloon incident is over? is it water under the bridge with china? he told me, so long as it doesn't happen again, quote, that chapter should be closed. so there is the sense that this visit is going to pave the way for more visits, including president xi meeting with president biden in the u.s. before the end of the year. >> wow. nbc's janis mackey frayer, thank you very much for that report. and secretary blinken is in london now meeting with the uk's foreign secretary. the two are set to discuss were war in ukraine and efforts to help those who have fled the country. today's meeting falls on world refugee day, and according to the international rescue committee, more than 18 million are in need of humanitarian aid

in ukraine. over 8 million have been forced to leave the country. and 5 million are internally displaced. joining us now, president and ceo of the international rescue committee, david miliband. thanks for coming on. overall, more people have been forced to flee their homes than ever before. is this mostly because of the war in ukraine, or are there other factors? >> thanks, mika. no. ukraine is only a small part of the global refugee crisis. one in every 74 people on the planet is a refugee or internally displalgsed person, 110 million people in total. ukraine puts it in the top three. there's still 8 million internally displaced and about 6 million refugees from the crisis in syria 12 years now running, afghanistan also a very major source of displacement. and you have reported on the

recent downturn in sudan. four years ago there was a hope for democracy and the development of civilian-led government in sudan. now, between 1.5 million and 2 million people displaced. what we're seeing is in the main conflicts within the states, so called civil wars, often driven by stress over resources and the climate crisis that's producing this unprecedented state of affairs where more and more people are in humanitarian need and where the global political system looks blocked. >> and the biden administration obviously has worked hard to rebuild the u.s. refugee program, but are there areas where perhaps the united states could do more, especially when it comes to restrictions on asylum seekers? >> yes. there's a great point. it's an interesting part of the u.s. experience, which the growing levels of cruelty, until 2021 and the new biden administration came in, the greater cruelty wasn't

associated with greater order at the border. it was associated with disorder. there's a simple reason for that. if you block all the legal routes for people for asylum, you end up with more and more desperation south of the border left the biden administration in a situation where the people smugglers were in charge. it's trying to put that right. it's establishing good new mechanism, boosting refugee resettlement, but there is a very big decision it's got. it's made it illegal for someone to claim asylum within the united states. in fact, they get kicked out for five years. we don't think that's an orderly part of asylum, because it will leave more people thinking they have to put themselves back in the hands of the smugglers. when title xlii ended, there wasn't the chaos predicted because there are more ways people can exercise their right to claim asylum. everyone has a right to apply for asylum and achieve some

safety from a situation, yes, south of the border, but remember, some of the people applying from asylum from south of the u.s. border have come all the way from afghanistan or iran or persecution elsewhere. >> david, before your current role working -- a very noble role with refugees, you were the foreign secretary from the labor party. and now it's an interesting time politically in the uk, and the labor party could potentially be on the upswing after 13 years of conservative dominance in uk politics. would you try to find a seat in the uk and never go back and try to get back into -- >> well, that's a very nice thing for you to bring me back to my old life rather than my new life. i'm very committed to what i'm doing. but honestly, you don't say the same thing in private that you say in public. i'm very committed to my current job but i don't know what i'm going to do next. people say you're not good at career planning. that's true. but i've managed to find ways of

living out my values. what i try and do is make a difference. you're right that the uk has suffered from 13 years of conservative government since the labor government i was part of was kicked out of office in 2010. the country is suffering from what they tend to call an economic doom loop, so there's very serious problems. obviously, the politics of, if you like right-wing populism being very evident in the uk, post-truth, brexit, other issues, there's some evidence of pushback within the conservative party and within the country at large. but there's still a probably year, year and a half to go until the election. i'm fighting for the humanitarian needs around the world and the refugees around the world. >> david, could you talk briefly about how these crises around the world with refugees impact democracy and politics, stability. >> one of the myths is that most refugees are in countries like the united states or europe.

they're not 75% of the world's refugees that are in poor countries, allies of the u.s. like jordan, over countries, uganda, africa, very large numbers of refugees, pakistan, very large numbers of refugees. the obvious point is they put enormous challenge on systems that are already fragile and that is doubled because the international system doesn't support countries like jordan and pakistan with international financial support when they're hosting these refugees. so it puts extra strain on the domestic system. equally, i think it's really important to underline on this world refugee day, refugees are innovators, change makers, they are contributors to the countries they come to. you know this from the united states. if you know the price of having your freedom threatened, my god, when you get the chance to exercise your freedom, you seize that chance. >> president and ceo of the international rescue committee, david, thank you very much for

coming on the show. >> thank you very much. >> we appreciate it. >> mara gay, thank you as well. up next, we'll have the latest on the search for a submersible craft that was headed toward the ruins of the titanic but then disappeared on sunday shortly into its dive. my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪ ♪ it was time for a nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once-monthly add-on treatment for severe eosinophilic asthma that can mean less oral steroids. not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. ask your asthma specialist about a nunormal with nucala.

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jeff understands that the job of attorney general is to

serve and protect the people of the united states, and that is exactly what he will do and do better than anybody else can. jeff sessions was a disastrous attorney general, should have never been attorney general, he's not qualified, he's not mentally qualified to be attorney general. we hope bill barr will be as good as we think because bill is a great gentleman, a great man. by the way, when bill barr, who's, you know, a coward, bill barr was a coward, bill barr didn't do what he what he was supposed to do, i fired him and he has great hatred. in his new role as chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, general milley will serve as my top military adviser. i have absolute confidence he'll fulfill his duty with the same brilliance and fortitude he has shown throughout his long and very distinguished career. milley frankly was incompetent. the last one i want to attack with as my leader would be milley. jon kelly will do a fantastic job.

general kelly has been a star, done an incredible job thus far, respected by everybody, a great, great american. i know jon kelly. he was with me, didn't do a good job, had no temperament, and ultimately he was petered out, exhausted. this man was totally exhausted. he wasn't even able to function. i am confident that jay has the wisdom and leadership to guide our economy through any challenges that our great economy may face. and, you know, i had my own situation with powell and i beat the hell out of him. he was not a big fan of powell. he was recommended by some people. i didn't like him. we are going to appoint "mad dog" mattis as our secretary of defense. they say he's the closest thing to general george patton that we have, and it's about time. about time.

he was a highly overrated general, didn't do the job, didn't do good on isis. he was fired by president obama, and i fired him also. rex tillerson, secretary of state. going to do a great job. he's respected all over the world, and i think he's going to go down as one of our great, great secretaries. >> in an angry tweet he called tillerson quote dumb as a rock and totally ill prepared and ill equipped to be secretary of state. >> he was a highly respected gentleman with a great career, west point, harvard, a tremendous talent,s acting secretary of defense. >> he has said, quote, you were a light weight, a figurehead, he said mark esper was weak, totally ineffective. he said he would do anything i wanted. >> secretary ciao, you've been so fantastic in so many ways -- transportation. it's moving along.

you've done a fantastic job for me and for the country. and i appreciate all that you do. >> in his post on truth social, trump said, mcconnell, quote, has a death wish and must immediately seek help and advice from his child-loving wife. >> oh, my god. donald trump so quick to turn on his very own best people the moment they start telling the truth about him. in an interview on fox news last night, host bret baier pressed him on this point. >> we put people in that were great and we put people in that weren't. i know now washington probably better than anybody. i know the good ones and the bad ones. we have really great, strong people. i already know who they are. we will have really great, strong people. >> okay. in 2016, you said that. i'm going to surround myself with only the best and most serious people.

>> well, i did that. we had the best economy we've ever had, no one's ever seen. >> mike pence is running against you. your ambassador to the united nations, nikki haley, running against you, former secretary of state mike pompeo is not supporting you. you mentioned john bolton. he's not supporting you. bill barr says you shouldn't be president again, calls you a consummate narcissist and troubled man. you recently called barr a gutless pig. your second defense secretary is not supporting you, called you irresponsible. you called jon kelly weak and effective and a boy with a very small brain. you called your acting chief of staff nick mulvaney a born loser, your first defense secretary james mattis the world's most overrated secretary-general. multiple times you've referred to elaine chao as mitch

mcconnell's china-loving wife. so why did you hire all of them in the first place? >> because i hired 10 to 1 that were fantastic. we had a great economy. we had phenomenal people in charge of the economy. we had phenomenal people in the military. i'm not a fan of milley or certain television people, but i knocked out isis. i defeated isis. they said, mattis, it will take three years and i don't think we can do it. i did it in a period of, like, four weeks. >> a lot of people praise you for your policies. i just said that. >> that's true. you went through a list. but for every one you say, i had ten that love us. >> i don't think so. jonathan lemire, elise jordan, claire mccaskill still with us. wow. i mean, bret baier kind of nailed him on a number of fronts here in terms of hypocrisy, lying, and just being a plain weak leader. joining the discussion, senior fellow at the trinity forum,

peter wehner. good to have you on. >> he was so isolated at the end. >> yeah. >> he was isolated. >> he's isolated now. you remember, like, in the beginning of his campaign and even during his time in the white house, he always had ivanka there. >> right. >> he gave her a job in the white house. she and jared. it was all so weird. >> yeah. >> she's disappeared completely, let alone everybody else. he's alone. >> so, pete, you've written a good bit on donald trump. we focus on donald trump, but it's hard not to focus on people who are still in the trump sort of cult or under trump's persuasion. i mean, you look at all of these things. jeff sessions is going to do a job better than anybody else, then he's a disaster. he's not qualified. milley -- >> he's cruel to people. >> touted his brilliance and fortitude, had a brilliant career, after a year or two he calls him incompetent.

i could go through -- you know, bill barr went from a great man to being a gutless pig. and it goes on and on and on. this whole idea that, oh, donald trump, he can fix it alone, donald trump, will hire the best people, it's just been proven to be a lie time and time and time again. the question is, if that doesn't persuade people, will stealing nuclear secrets persuade people? >> probably not, unfortunately. it's going to persuade a lot of fair-minded people, and i think the majority of the public will be disturbed by it, but in terms of the base of the republican party and the core of trump supporters, i think we have long passed the point where there's any line he can cross, anything that he can do that's going to be too far for them. it is a fascinating and deeply disturbing psychological phenomenon we're seeing unfold. it's happened throughout history, and it's happened time now and then in this country but never on this scale and never

with a presidential candidate or former president like donald trump. so will there be some erosion? potentially, but not much. and as we've seen, whether it's a coup attempt, whether it's a violent insurrection, whether it's a civil case in which he sexually harassed a woman, he can pretty much get away with anything with these people. and that, by the way, is -- i think there are two stories here in terms of historically. one is that we had what's essentially a sociopath as president, a man with a disordered personality. that's always been true of donald trump. but the other thing is the complicity of the entire republican party that went along with him. they could have stopped him at any point along this torturous road, and they never have. and i think there's going to be a huge historical price to pay, but there's a huge moral and political price for the country right now. >> well, i mean, i talked about yesterday, pete, after we read

your column from "the atlantic," that these same people were people that were hounding me in '99 to vote against bill clinton on all four articles of impeachment. i said, well, we probably need to listen to the evidence first. they freaked out and said the man is not fit morally to be there, america is in decline, it's the end of our constitutional republic because he's immoral. so let me just say, of course, this has all changed. i don't have to name, you know, the payofs to the porn stars and all the other things they're turning a blind eye to. >> it's accepted. >> you say in your column is majority of trump enablers still know right from wrong. but let me ask you something. donald trump has a disorder. if he's a sociopath, what's so wrong with our tribe whether to we are talking about our republican tribe, our conservative tribe, our

evangelical tribe? why weren't there more tim kellers out there? why weren't there more pete wehners out there? why weren't there more russell moores out there? >> yeah. and joe scarboroughs and others. look, it's a question i've wrestled with for a long time. one way i think about it is how many of these dark impulses existed pretrump in the republican party that i wasn't his lawyer too as i should have been. if you go over my writings, i called the republicans out now and then. looking back, i probably didn't do near enough. part of that what's gone on, you had a situation in which there were deep feelings of grievance and resentments that trump tapped into, and you saw the psychological accommodation. once they threw their hat over the wall in 2016 when he got the nomination, it was one thing after another after another. if you study human psychology, the capacity of human beings to rationalize and justify what

they do in order to mitigate what's called cognitive dissonance, a sense that your values are at odds with what you stated, is enormous. i think there was power, longing for power. because he's president, i think there was fear of the base, i think there was cowardice. i think there was a hollow moral core, and this sort of self-deception. but it is an unbelievably puzzling thing, i think particularly for people like you and i, joe, and others who are republicans, probably why we've had the energy we do on this issue, because this is a party we belong to. and to see what it's doing, the kind of wrecking ball, the civil wrecking ball, political wrecking ball, moral wrecking ball, it's disturbing for anybody, but particularly from people who were formerly associated with the republican party. they should have seen this. it was obvious this guy was going to be what he turned out to be. >> and, pete, people that grew up in the evangelical church who listened to tim keller, some of the last things he said. tim said being an evangelical

used to mean you turned your back on sort of the pentecostal approach, sort of this build a wall around your church. and the idea of evangelicals -- and i saw it growing up. i saw it growing up -- throw the door wide open, look outward and trying to figure out how to connect, how to make a difference in your community, how to be there for people who are hurting and people that were in need, being good samaritans. that's what they taught us, at least, every sunday. of course we all fall short of the mark. i fall short of the mark still all the time. but that was the idea. but, tim, one of the last things tim said was that the word evangelical, it's become associated with politics instead of faith. not only these trumpers have not only taken over and twisted and distorted the republican party, they've done it to conservativism and they've done

to it to evangelicalism. >> yeah. i would just say as a person of the christian faith, that's been the most personally painful thing to me to see not just the damage to the country but the damage to the faith, which i think is almost incalculable. faith turned out to be subordinate, secondary to certain core identity, whether they were partisan and political or culture or socioeconomic or psychological. and what happened is a lot of people had a certain preconception. they started at the point and used the scriptures to justify where they were. shakespeare said the devil can quote scripture fur his own purposes and, in fact, did in the second temptation. i think we're seeing that happen. enough donald trump the person who probably most embodies the antithesis of the servant,

teachings of jesus. this guy is a rock star and has been year after year. you could have made an argument in 2016 that he didn't know what he was dealing with but not as the years unfolded. by the time we got to 2020, it was so obvious what he was, and yet they stayed. it's a tremendous indictment of them, and it raises really deep issues. i know tim was a close friend of mine and we talked a lot about this. it raises a lot of questions about the evangelical movement and what's happened, what went wrong, and what can be done to get it right. >> the beatitudes. it's always my challenge to those who talk -- they go through every single beatitude, every single one, blessed are the merciful, blessed are the meek, blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. blessed are the merciful, showing mercy. i could go through them all. he is literally the antithesis of every single one. and, claire, i know you

represented a state where, just like where pete and i are from, the evangelical influence is great. but i want to ask you. i mean, let's broaden this out, not just evangelicals, but let's broaden out what happened in a state like missouri, which used to be a swing state pre-trump, a state that you won, i mean, you won it twice. and it was never easy. you always had to work hard. but you take states like missouri, and i just wonder, what has happened that -- you have a guy, you go down a list of all these people he appointed that have all turned on him, that he's turned on, january 6th, stealing nuclear secrets. i would guess that donald trump is just as popular in your home state now as he was before people figured out that he stole nuclear secrets from the federal government.

>> there was a poll taken in missouri last week, and 42% of missourians said donald trump was a great president. 42%. and by the way, that's down slightly, but it's still incredibly damning of many, many people in missouri. and, you know, donald trump did something, and people have asked me, what happened in missouri? you know, we went from a state that was kind of purplish and swingy to one that is bright, bright red. and what donald trump figured out, that immoral man who has never found the truth in any walk of life he has traveled, what he figured out was he figured out how to market grievance. he figured out how to main line to people who felt grievance. they couldn't afford to retire. they couldn't afford to send their kids to college. they played by the rules. it felt like the most powerful

people in the world were looking over them and down on them. and donald trump figured that out. by the way, he looks down on them, but he figured out how to market to them. it was like the con man who used to come to small towns around missouri selling thing prs the back of a truck. i remember my grandmother saying just walk by, he's going to cheat you. and the idea that the evangelical community in missouri and many other states have embraced this immoral man, who is absolutely at odds with jesus christ in every way, in every way, is a stunning indictment on the strength of faith in that particular community because clearly they have elevated him to a place that he does not deserve. and on the subject of people not standing up to donald trump in the republican party, i wish people would start asking my former colleagues and other republicans, would you go to work for him?

would you go to work for donald trump right now? would you take a career change and go into the white house and actually be at his side if he were president again? i would be fascinated to see how many of them were willing to stand with donald trump in a professional capacity after we've witnessed how he selects talent and what he does with the people he's selected after they refuse to do his immoral acts and act in a way that is dishonest and without integrity. >> all right, claire. pete wehner, thank you very much. we'll be reading the new piece for "the atlantic." claire mccaskill, thank you, as well, for coming on this morning. so, "the new york times" is reporting this week on the fallout of a botched attempt by the kremlin to assassinate a former high-ranking russian intelligence official in the united states back in 2020. that former official had previously disclosed information to the fbi which led to the 2010

arrest of 11 russian spies living along the east coast. russia then tried to kill the informant a decade later in miami, florida. when it failed, the u.s. imposed new sanctions on russia the following year and expelled ten russian diplomats, including a station chief for russia's external intelligence agency. in response, russia expelled ten american diplomats, including a high-ranking american cia station chief. joining us now, one of the authors of this report, a staff writer for "the new york times" magazine, roman bergman. also with us, someone quoted in the article, former senior operations officer with the cia mark -- >> to be honest, we don't have mark on to talk about the quote. >> yes, we do. >> we have him on because i want to talk about the red sox sweeping the yankees and winning against last night. but roman, let's start with you

and get to the serious stuff first. you know, we've seen putin going after defectors in england. talk about this story and talk about how it even shocked some people inside the intelligence community in the united states, because this was putin crossing a line they never really believed he would cross. >> yes. so, together with my great colleagues we broke the story yesterday about that line that everybody thought putin would never cross. he killed dissidents and defectors in britain, he invaded crimea, did a lot of things defying international law, but everybody thought this will never reach the united states, until a guy called potayev,

probably the most senior spy the cia ran inside russian intelligence for many, many years, defected, and led by his defection to the arrest of many -- they call them illegals in russian intelligence. we know they were deep mole, undercover spies, planted in the united states for a long time. putin, when it was revealed that he's the source, he's the lead, that someone so senior in russian intelligence defected, someone on his behalf said their conduct was already -- he was dispatched to mexico city to kill trotsky in 1940. for tom year, poteyev under false identity lived in miami, but then the fbi found out there's a cell that was recruited, among them a physician, mexican physician

called hector fuentes, and he was arrested when he was sent to a meeting where poteyev lived. all that proved to the u.s. intelligence, it shocked some of them, as you said, that there's no line, not even that, performing an assassination on u.s. soil against someone who is highly protected by the u.s. establishment, there's no line that he wouldn't cross. and that led to this exchange of declaring intelligence officials in both countries like that. >> we know that putin has struck across russia's borders before in the uk in particular. he's targeted those russian nationals. but this would be new, doing it in the united states. so just tell us, someone who is a veteran of this world, tell us your reaction, how stunning it

is that putin would be willing to give this order. yes, it failed, but he'd be willing to give this order to do so within the sovereign united states of america. >> political assassination has been kind of a hallmark of soviet and russian state craft. this is in the dna of the russian, you know, specific services. now, for a long time, we saw europe really as russian intelligence playground. they have killed defectors, killed opposition members. in the uk, there was the famous attempt in 2018 in salisbury. they killed a chechen in germany in 2017. what makes this interesting of course is this operation was going to take place in the united states. and, you know, it has all the trademarks of russian intelligence. they recruit in essence of support asset, someone who will obtain pattern of life on this reported defector. you know, they would conduct surveillance, find out where they lived later on for a different team to come in. but remember, putin has this pathological hatred of

defectors. this is as a former intel officer. so it certainly is a different line to cross. one thing in roman's reporting, under u.s. law, public law 110 to, the u.s. can bring in defectors into the united states. and with that becomes permanent residency for the defectors. what we're talking about here is not only the russians trying to kill a former russian, but this is someone who became an american citizen, and that should send a chill really to all americans. >> elysian -- elise jordan here. this was in a book called "spies" out on june 29th, so it makings me very excited for that book. are there any other tidbits that you have learned, you know, this book had that. is there else we should be looking forward to? >> we learned about the debate

inside the american intelligence, whether this should be published and pay attention, both administrations, the trump and biden, not published. we first wanted to break the story and second to take much more aggressive steps against putin, because there are people inside the american intelligence and defense establishment who say putin did not pay a price, not for crimea, not for -- not for nothing. he learned the lesson. the lesson is, when you do not treat the bully with force, he can understand it, he can get away with ukraine. the person who is written third on the wall of fame of kgb, is the person who two-points special kinds of poison from the trees of the amazon. this is his fame, and if someone comes from this organization, you can figure out what he's going to do with defectors and

his treatment to international law. >> all right. staff writer for "the new york times" magazine, roman bergman, thank you very much. he's the author of the book entitled "rise and kill first: the secret history of israel's targeted assassinations." and former cia operations officer, mark, thank you as well. >> four in a row? >> four in a row. joe, i think that -- you know, we deserve some credit. both of us were in boston this weekend with our sons. when the red sox need help, they have to send out a bat call and we'll come to fenway. the data speaks for itself. we can help the red sox. let's see what happens now. >> exactly. the sweep. the sweep because of your son and mine. >> exactly. >> that's right. >> we'll be listening to the latest episode of your podcast called "the spy hour." we look forward to that. still ahead on "morning joe," former president trump claims a conversation he had with russia's vladimir putin

delayed the war in ukraine. we'll show you that moment and some of trump's other remarks about authoritarian leaders. plus, a look at how senate democrats plan to mark the first anniversary of the supreme court's decision to overturn roe v. wade. you're watching "morning joe." (man) what if my type 2 diabetes takes over? (woman) what if all i do isn't enough? or what if i can do diabetes differently? (avo) now you can with once-weekly mounjaro. mounjaro helps your body regulate blood sugar, and mounjaro can help decrease how much food you eat. 3 out of 4 people reached an a1c of less than 7%.

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why not just hand them over then? >> because i had boxes. i wanted to go through the boxes an get all my personal things out. i don't want to hang that over yet. i was very busy as you've sort of seen. >> according to the indictment you tell this aide to move to other locations after telling your lawyers to say you'd fully complied with the subpoena when you hadn't. >> but before i send boxes over, i have to take all of my things out. these boxes were interspersed with all sorts of things -- golf shirts, clothing, pants, shoes. there were many things. i would say -- >> [ inaudible ]? >> not that i know of.

but everything was declassified. >> why don't we bring in barbara mcquade, of course former u.s. attorney. barbara, we've sort of summarized donald trump's interview with bret baier last night as incoherent, incriminating, and idiotic on so many levels. talk about how he keeps putting himself one step closer to jail every time he does one of these rambling interviews. >> yeah. you know, any lawyer would tell him to just stop talk about this matter, but he can't help himself. i think he thinks by getting out there he can explain it all away. this interview did a very good job of pinning him down because he admitted that he kept them even after he knew he had to return them because he needed time to review them. he essentially admitted to obstruction of justice and said the reason was because he had to go through them.

imagine tax day comes and goes and you say you didn't file taxes because you were very busy. it doesn't fly under the law. these are the nation's most sensitive secrets. it's like holding nuclear material. every second you have it, you're exposing people to risk. there is a risk these could end in the wrong hands, so every day that goes by puts our nation at risk. i think this evidence, this recording is very likely to be played before a jury at trial. >> barbara, let's press a little further. what stood out as admissible as a trial? it was almost trump borderline confessing to what he's been charged with. how devastating is this potentially for his defense? >> i think it's very powerful evidence because i think hardest thing to prove in most cases, but especially a case like this, is willfulness. for most crimes, ignorance of the law is no defense, but for certain crimes, including

mishandling classified information, there's an additional level of willfulness proving what you did was illegal and you knew it was illegal. that little clip where donald trump explains about his understanding he can no longer declassify documents after leaving the white house, means he understands. for him to say at trial if there were to be some defense that the government has failed to prove requisite intent, they'll just play this tape and i think a jury will find beyond a reasonable doubt that he absolutely knew what he was doing was illegal. >> the government has trump coming and going on this issue as far as intent goes and as far as knowledge of the law because, yes, they have him on tape saying, you know, as a former president i can't declassify this material, i can't declassify this document, it's a shame, right? so as president, they have testimony of donald trump

understanding the declassification process and had somebody that had briefed him and they have more evidence from more staff members that donald trump knew exactly what was required to declassify a document. unlike what he said on sean hannity and other shows, he can't just wish it in his mind and make it go away. >> it seem to me that hell for defense lawyer is a place where up donald trump as a client for all eternity, right, because he goes off on television with bret baier and repeatedly inkrim nate himself on count after count after count. so my question to barbara is what do you do? say you're his -- one of his defense lawyers and you've watched that interview, which you surely advised him not to give, and he gave it anyhow, and you listened to what he said and

how he basically confessed to a series of crimes. what do you do? how do you try to repair that damage? and is it some sort of plea arrangement? >> well, number one, you consider resigning i suppose because you have a client who won't listen to you, which is every lawyer's nightmare. i think maybe you dissect it for him and explain in very gory detail exactly how harmful that was. these are the elements of the offense. this is what the government will have to prove at trial. when you say these things, this is evidence that they will play in court. perhaps that is one way. a guilty plea is so interesting here. i think any normal defendant or any normal lawyer would absolutely be talking about a plea, but i can't imagine the government is going to agree to the kind of conditions that donald trump would want in exchange. they're going to want prison time, because anybody else would get prison time.

or they're going to want, which the justice department permits, an agreement not to seek higher office. he's just not going to agree to those kinds of things. but maybe as we get closer to the date and he realizes that serious prison time is at stake, those things may look a little more attractive than they do now. coming up, with the 2024 elections approaching, we are following new reporting on how misinformation experts are being inundated with subpoenas and lawsuits from some republicans. we'll bring in the report owner that piece. power e*trade's award-winning trading app makes trading easier. with its customizable options chain, easy-to-use tools and paper trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are. e*trade from morgan stanley. power e*trade's easy-to-use tools make complex trading less complicated.

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♪ ♪ ♪ [typing] ♪ you were made to act spontaneously. we were made to help plan accordingly. ♪

we have more now from former president trump's interview last night on fox news. he was asked about some big international affairs items and

he seemed to focus his answers on how much he says he's liked by certain foreign leaders. >> what do you make of the braipgs policy to saudi arabia? >> i think it's terrible. we've lost saudi arabia. saudi arabia, they're friends of mine. they're great people. the crown prince and the king, i got along with them ip credibly. they would doanything. they are great, great people. with putin, i had a very good relationship. i haven't spoke on the him in a long while, but i had a very strong relationship. >> was he wrong to invade ukraine? >> he wouldn't have done it if it were me. he did that after i left. i thought he might do it. look, i talked to him. i said, if you do it, there's going to be hell to pay. it's going to be a catastrophe. don't do it. he said no, no, no, you won't do that. i said i'm going to do something. i said i will, vladimir, i'm going to do it. >> separate country from russia. >> it's a separate country. at one point it wasn't a

separate country. >> crimea -- was that part of the deal, should putin get crimea? >> right now i don't talk about those deals because it really would impede a negotiation. i would have a deal done in 24 hours from the time we started. >> well, i mean, of course his deal would be to hand ukraine over to russia. but richard haass, the stupidity, the lunacy here is really frightening. again, we have to keep reminding ourselves, this guy was once commander in chief of the united states of america. start with the saudis. "they're friends of mine. they're great, great people. they would do anything." i mean, yeah, they would give $2 billion to family members and also, if you remember, when he was running for president he said he loved the saudis because they spent hundreds of millions of dollars on his toys. i just want to say i'm making no connections, but i think

investigators and others would be fools not to at least ask these questions. who would be the most interesting? who would have the greatest need other than the united states to have u.s. intelligence, highly classified intelligence on war plans against iran? who more than saudi arabia on the entire planet? >> that would certainly be worth exploring. can i say that the degree of personalization or narcissism, it's almost like it's a different school of foreign policy. usually you have debates between realists and idealists or whatever. this is an entirely different school. whether it was with the leader of north korea, the love letters, or president xi of china or vladimir putin or the king of -- crown prince of saudi arabia, the idea that personal relationships, and his relationship would somehow

deliver these countries on his watch with saudi arabia -- the iranians attacked saudi arabia, the united states did nothing despite his great personal relationship, which is one of the reasons the saudis grew so alienated. saudis were doing what they were doing in yemen despite us telling them not to. now the united states and saudi arabia are actually negotiating potentially a really intimate relationship where we would offer certain types of security assurances and they would move towards peace with israel. so it's not as though we've quote, unquote lost saudi arabia. and this stuff about russia and ukraine, it's in the preposterous department, the idea that he could just pick up the phone and deliver vladimir putin and peace within 24 hours is just this side of preposterous. coming up, a live report on the coast guard's search for five people who are missing after going to explore wreckage from the "titanic." "morning joe" is coming right back.

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♪♪ mass shootings in the united states have escalated to a record pace, but women, particularly those over the age of 50, are playing a critical role in trying to win the battle for gun safety legislation in our country. june is also national gun violence awareness month. here to tell us more, maggie mcgrath, editor of forbes women and huma abedin, vice chair of forbes know your value summit. why do you think women over 50 are having such a big impact? >> we are seeing women turn their anguish and anger into action. we see polling that shows women are in the favor of stricter gun

laws. a gallup survey found that mothers are more concerned about school shootings than fathers are. what we're seeing through the 50 over 50 nominations is that women aren't sitting on their hands. they're starting companies. they're founding movements. sometimes fuelled by personal loss. we had scarlet lewis who lost her son jessie in the 2014 mass shooting at sandy hook elementary. she told forbes her age and experience has taught her about the fragility of life. >> show up at the polls, especially on this topic. huma, who are some of these women over 50 who are affecting the most change? >> there's been some incredible

female leadership in the space, women like chris brown, who is the president of brady, one of the oldest gun violence prevention groups in the country and shannon watts, founder of moms demand action. they have a chapter in every state and are considered one of the most effective counter efforts to the nra. these women are taking a comprehensive approach to what is a uniquely american epidemic approaching it from, number one, ownership demands responsibility and there's no single root cause of this problem. it's a combination of legislation, education and litigation that's going to carry the ball forward. in the public service space, sylvia garcia, congresswoman

from houston, texas and tish jane, who have recently hosted and participated in gun buy back events. >> i think the gun buy backs are one component of it. we've got to get some of these off the streets. we are parents raising generations of children who are scared to go to school and parents are scared to send them to school. women especially, parents especially are feeling like they can't just sit back anymore. one woman who has been crucial in the gun safety debate will be a judge for the 50 over 50 list, which is coming out august 1st. this is exciting. we're getting close. tell viewers who she is and why we picked her? >> nicole hockley is the cofounder and ceo of sandy hook promise, an organization that educates schools and communities

around gun violence and identifying the signs. 18 million americans have participated in her organization's program. we see her as an expert on how to lead a movement and create real change. we're going to be drawing on her insight to identify the next class of 50 over 50 impact. >> obviously the way to have impact is playing a role in politics, whether it be running or voting. how much do you think guns will play a role in how people vote in the upcoming election? >> i think it's going to play a big role. there's a recent poll that reveals that guns are the number one concern among women voters in 2024, narrowly edging out abortion and cost of living. what we saw last year with the overturning of roe and the effect it had in the midterms, it is a motivating issue in our

country. now more than ever when you have women like kari lake suggesting that violence is okay, to have this next generation of leaders, these activists, we're learning that millennials and gen z are more progressive on gun control. i think it is going to be an issue that's going to take women to the polls in a positive way. >> we will be following this issue closely in the leadup to 2024. thank you. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe." 'll be right more "morning joe.

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welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. breaking news this hour in the donald trump classified documents case. according to court documents, judge aileen cannon has set a trial date, august 14th, as the day for the trial to begin. that's not too long from now. i'm a little surprised. >> i'm very surprised at it. >> august is going to be spicy. >> i will say, of course, there's a possibility that there will be delays. there are usually delays in trials. that said, the judge set the date for august 14th, understanding the complexities of this case. it's not like she thought it was a slip and fall in publix. she knew this involved national security. so this is a very quick timeline and a surprising timeline. >> it is.

the timeline also comes around the same time that fani willis has said to keep the courts ready for action if and when an indictment in georgia comes. august could become a very busy month. >> i think any trial lawyer would say to you this date is probably going to slip, but the fact that it's set so early means maybe it moves a month, two, three, but still looks like her goal is to get this finished by the end of the year. >> this comes as the former president is doubling down on defending his handling of nuclear secrets in a new and combative prime time interview on fox news. it was one week after pleading not guilty to those 37 federal charges brought against him by special counsel jack smith. this indictment, even legal experts on fox news have said is

fairly damning. let's go to kristin welker. what is donald trump saying now? >> in that new interview, mr. trump is giving some of his most extensive comments yet about the charges he's facing for allegedly mishandling classified material. we haven't gotten a reaction yet from the former president's legal team, but it would not be a surprise if they tried to delay that date. this is clearly an intensifying political and legal challenge for the former president, who's running for reelection. in his first interview since pleading not guilty to 37 criminal charges, former president trump delivered a new

defense when asked why he didn't return the documents. >> because i had boxes. i want to go through the boxes and get all my personal things out. i don't want to hand that over. i was very busy. >> according to the indictment, you tell this aide to move to other locations after telling your lawyers to say you'd fully complied with the subpoena when you hadn't. >> these boxes were interspersed with all sorts of things. >> according to the indictment, mr. trump is accused of handling more than 100 classified documents and also showing classified material to other people who did not have clearance in 2021, including a military plan that he said remained secret. the indictment quotes an audio recording of mr. trump saying, "see, as president i could have declassified it. now i can't". >> when i said i couldn't declassify it now, it's because i wasn't president.

i never made any bones about that. >> you did say that. >> no, no. i said i couldn't. brett, there was no document. that was a massive amount of papers and everything else talking about iran and other things. >> so far, the charges against mr. trump have not dented his double-digit lead in the republican presidential race. president biden, who's also under investigation by a special counsel for his handling of classiied material which he turned over to authorities hasn't commented about mr. trump's latest legal challenges, instead stepping up his campaign rollout in california with four fund-raisers on tap today. mr. trump's former attorney general bill barr has a new op-ed in the free press, writing, quote, trump's indictment is not the result of unfair government persecution. this is a situation entirely of his own making. he goes on to call trump's

behavior indefensible. we have yet to see the vast majority of his republican rivals take him on over these legal challenges. instead they continue to walk a really fine line over this issue. >> congratulations on becoming meet the press host and moderator. we're so proud of you. >> thank you. >> we were with your mom. >> i know that. listen, my mom could not be more grateful. i am so honored. thank you for that congratulations. it really means a lot. >> you're welcome. thank you very much for your reporting this morning. >> i want to go to jonathan lemire. >> it does say 2023. >> it does say 2023. when i heard august, i was thinking they're going to wait until august 2024.

august 2023, i would go to elise, of course, a lawyer, at least sometimes in my mind. i'll go to jonathan instead. >> i'm not a lawyer. [ laughter ] >> you go through this according to the rule, parties shall file speedy trial reports every 21 days following the entry of this order. she talks about how they've got -- i'm just looking through this. it looks like a really quick timeline. i'm very surprised. again, understanding they're going to ask for delays, but she didn't have to set this date so quickly and so early. it suggests that she understands the necessity of getting this trial out of the way if at all possible before primary season.

>> there have been so many questions about judge cannon because of some of her rulings in the early stages of this probe where she seemed to grant the trump defense team a lot of leeway. but at least in this one, this is a surprise how early this is. let's be clear. it's not going to start august 14th. there will be a lot of delays. also there are inherent delays in a matter like this that involves the handling of classified materials. that's going to slow things down too. they've known there would be slowdowns and that trump is going to ask for delays. that was always baked in, but she's starting the clock so early that manages those delays that we could have a speedy resolution than a lot of people would have anticipated.

this simply starts the process sooner and does seem to be a nod toward the political considerations with the primary field. >> in another tense moment with fox news, brett barrett, trump responded to a question about losing the 2020 election and how he plans to win back some of the voters he lost. in his response, the former president cited debunked conspiracy theories and repeated his false claims that the race was rigged. listen. >> what do you say to that female independent suburban voter to win her back? >> first of all, i won in 2020 by a lot, okay? let's get that straight. i won in 2020. >> you know that's not -- >> you'd take a look at truth to vote where they have people stuffing the ballot boxes on tapes or -- >> mr. president -- >> let's go to recent fbi twitter. let's go to recent, the 51

agents all corrupt. that's cheating on the elections. >> you lost the 2020 election. >> my lord. >> that is actually something donald trump hasn't really been confronted with the truth. that entire back and forth was framed by brett asking the question, how are you going to win back swing voters that voted for you in 2016 but that you lost in 2020 and after that, of course, january 6th and your lying about the election being rigged despite the fact that 63 federal judges all said you were wrong, the supreme court said you were wrong, the three justices you put on the supreme court said you were wrong, alito and thomas, the most conservative justices said trump was wrong. his response was to double down

on the lie, double down on the conspiracy theories that were debunked, again, by republicans in maricopa county, by republicans in georgia, by republicans in pennsylvania, by republicans in michigan, by republicans in wisconsin. >> it's telling that donald trump would rather argue that he won the election, which has been disproven in so many courts so many times than to actually answer the question that brett asked him, which was how do you win over suburban women again. he would rather avoid engaging in that question and just spew election lies, because frankly that is an area that he's going to struggle with, winning over suburban women again in a general election. he really had no good answer for it. that's why it's always easier for him to go back to his greatest hit and try to discredit the democratic

process. >> joining us now, "new york times" technology reporter shira frankel. you write, on capitol hill and in the courts republican lawmakers and activists are mounting a sweeping legal campaign against universities, think tanks and private companies that study the spread of disinformation, accusing them of colluding with the government to suppress conservative speech online. the effort has encumbered its targets with expansive requests for information and in some cases subpoenas, demanding notes, e-mails and other information related to social media companies and the government dating back to 2015. complying has consumed time and

resources and already affected the group's ability to do research and raise money, according to several people involved. they and others warn that the campaign undermines the fight against disinformation in american society when the problem is, by most accounts, on the rise and when another presidential election is around the corner. if you could explain more, this is almost as if they're trying to clog the system with disinformation going after these efforts to solve the problem. >> well, they're really trying to break the system as it exists right now. you had trump reiterating a lot of the 2020 conspiracies that we won the election. he wants to make sure and i think people close to him want to make sure he can do so again in 2024 without the system in place that's going to catch some of those false claims as they are launches onto the internet.

they've been on the front lines of finding some of these conspiracies as they start and documenting them. it's a really important part of the fact checking system that's come up around the internet. >> are there any protections that can be put in place to preserve their work? you're right, this is certainly a politically opportune time for republicans to make this crackdown. >> they're academics working with both the u.s. government and academic institutions to make sure they're doing so in an appropriate way. we spoke to people who work at these companies like facebook, instagram, youtube, twitter to check if any of these accusations have any merit, if any of these researchers had been improperly censoring

different speech. these researchers can't delete anything from the internet. they just conduct research. they're not going some sort of mass deleting of information on the internet that they don't like. >> is this a way for gop operatives to use the court system to force researchers into submission? is that the aim and this is just a use of opposition research against a new target essentially? >> i mean, these researchers certainly feel that to be the case. one academic i spoke to says they had to freeze all of their work. they had been conducting work looking back at 2020 and 2022 elections to see what conspiracies were being circulated. they said they haven't been able to do any of that work for going on six weeks now. they're already worried they're

heading into another incredibly important election without the time or the bandwidth to do this work. we haven't even gotten into the election that might be even more prone to create fake images and videos and sound bites. we really could be flooded with disinformation. >> thank you so much for coming on the show. we appreciate it. so this saturday will mark one year since the supreme court overturned roe v wade, essentially dismantling federal legal protections for abortion. the white house will host a roundtable event hosted by first lady dr. jill biden, which will feature women across the country denied critical health care

following the decision. kamala harris will end the week with a rally and speech in north carolina just days before a 12-week abortion ban is set to take effect in that state. all this comes as senate democrats are set to unveil legislation focused on reproductive rights. joining us with more is ali vitali. what can be done legislatively to protect women's reproductive freedom and health? >> the reality is in this congress, the way it stands right now, there's nothing that can be done. but senate democrats are going to move forward with four distinct bills they're going to try to do with unanimous consent. they're trying to push common sense legislation including things like protecting women's

ability to travel over state lines, protecting data privacy and the right to contraception and birth control and access to doctors providing this care. what i continue to hear from democratic lawmakers both in the house and senate is that they are going to try to continue to push this as an issue they need to elect more democrats here to washington in order to offer the kinds of federal protections they're trying to do this week. they won't be able to do it now, but they are trying to look ahead to effectively do this change at the ballot box and then come to washington to do it. we'll have more reporting on this throughout the week. i do think this is expected to be as palpable and energizing an issue in 2024 as it was in 2022

for democratic voters. >> thank you for that report. we look forward to your reports during the week. >> i don't think a year ago many could have predicted just how dramatic the dobbs decision impact would have on not only the lives of women in some truly terrible ways. you read so many of these horror stories of women who are just left. >> in terrible situations with fetal abnormalities. >> but also on the political side, nobody probably would have imagined that you would have had a landslide victory for abortion rights in kansas. the same would happen in kentucky, then in wisconsin. a really progressive judge would

win a landslide victory in a supreme court election that people on the right were calling one of most significant elections in recent wisconsin history. the republicans i talked to are horrified by what this does to their prospects in swing states. and yet legislatures are getting more extreme instead of more pragmatic given the tremendous blowback against dobbs. >> you see among the republican primary candidates there just isn't a space for anything but an absolute pro-life position from any of the candidates if they are going to survive that primary. ron desantis coming out with his six-week ban actually was surprising to me, because i thought he would shy away from that a bit and not try to dive into it. it just shows you how central it

is still among republican primary voters. then you go to a general election and look what happened in the last midterm cycle. when things really come down to the wire, women do come out and they vote based on having basic health care decisions taken out of their own purview. democrats need to message just about women's basic health care and getting the government out of health care. i think they still have a very potent issue that impacts literally all women's lives. >> coming up on "morning joe," tom costello joins us live from the coast guard command center in boston for the latest on the search for a submersive ship that went missing in one of the

deepest places on earth. later this hour cynthia nixon joins the table. a i've been texting around. so many people are surprised by how early this court date is and the very clear message that it sends to all parties that she expects this case to move like other cases in that jurisdiction. as joyce vance tells us, the southern district of florida considered a rocket docket. well, this is on pace for a rocket docket. >> a very quick move.

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breaking news, the trump appointed u.s. attorney for delaware has reached a plea agreement with hunter biden in which he is expected to plead guilty of two misdemeanor charges of failing to pay his taxes. he faces a separate gun possession charge that will likely be dismissed if he meets certain conditions, according to court documents filed on tuesday. again, we will be following this. the trump-appointed u.s. attorney for delaware reaching a plea agreement with hunter biden. he's expected to plead guilty to two misdemeanor counts of failing to play his taxes. in the trump documents case,

a trial date has been set. joyce vance joins us. first on hunter biden, joyce, what does this say to you, this limited information we have from court documents? >> we haven't seen the actual plea agreement and the charges themselves, but this seems in line with what you can expect. it's very typical that the law provides for misdemeanors in cases where a defendant failed to file. this would be, i think, within the heartland of the way the department charges these kinds of cases if that, in fact, is what the charge is of failure to file. as for the gun charge, certain kinds of people are forbidden to possess firearms. anyone with a felony conviction can't possess a firearm.

the charges against hunter biden appear to be a more obscure part of the statute that prohibit people who are addicted to drugs from using firearms. a lot of americans use marijuana and that would become an overwhelming charge. wouldn't be unusual to see someone put into a form of a front-end program, meaning they would have to comply with conditions, perhaps seek treatment, hold a job, participate in certain sessions with probation and then the potential charge would be dismissed without any action if they complete that program sat sats factorially. >> obviously trump republicans have been trying to stir up

conspiracy theories left and right. one after another have been disproven. one after another we found out the "wall street journal" editorial page said no fire here. a lot of smoke, but no fire. not only have they proven nothing, they have senior members of the senate saying we don't care whether he's guilty or not. it's all been a show. well, that show has just been exposed by trump's own prosecutor in delaware. he's done a plea deal. >> hunter biden pleading guilty. this is an agreement that comes within the sort of heartland of where these sort of things usually end up. certainly republicans have for

literally years now accused hunter biden of basically everything under the sun, including he's the master mind behind the biden crime family and corruption and all that. this is what came to be about the gun and about some minor tax charges. that's not going to stop republicans, i venture to guess. i suspect we'll have lots more from the gop along the same lines, that hunter biden got off easy, why isn't he going to prison. there's a double standard of justice. they ignore the facts as they have ignored the facts throughout this process. this is a day of closure throughout the president's family. we know how much this has weighed on the president of the united states, his son in legal jeopardy. that is good news there, but this is not going to disappear as a political issue.

>> a u.s. attorney that he appointed himself. they don't like the facts. they love conspiracies. well, this is another one. joyce, this is, i guess, in the fevered swamps of conspiracy theorists, the southern district of florida was a rocket docket. you look at the trial date that's been set. we all ups it's going to get pushed, but that is a rocket document date there. talk about it. >> yeah. it absolutely is. so judge aileen cannon entered a standard scheduling order in united states versus trump this morning. that's very reassuring.

that tells us this will be treated like other cases. trial is called for on this order on the 70 days that the speedy trial act allows. of course, there will be motions to continue that trial date. certainly it will be complicated by the need to get security clearances and classified discovery and the works, but i think this is a good starting point. >> let's bring in ken delanian to join the conversation. let's start with the news on the trial date for the mar-a-lago documents case. what do you make of this date, ken? does it seem like the judge is jumping on it and moving quickly? >> reporter: it does seem that way, mika, although i think it's very common for a judge to set an immediate date at the beginning of the proceedings knowing that date is not going

to hold. this date will certainly not hold, probably not even close, given the complexities of this case, given the motions we expect mr. trump to file. he's probably going to litigate over the fact that they're using his attorney's testimony to prosecute him. then there's this whole complexity of the classified procedures act, which has its own rules and regulations. the lawyers are going to have to get security clearances. there's going to be someone appointed to traffic cop the classified documents. there's not a snowball's chance this trial happens in august 2023. >> now to the story in delaware about the trump-appointed u.s. attorney reaching a plea agreement with hunter biden. explain to us the details. this, of course, includes hunter pleading guilty.

>> reporter: that's right. there is a plea agreement where hunter biden is going to plead guilty to two misdemeanor counts of failing to pay taxes. we believe it's more than a million dollars of taxes. then there's also an issue of a gun purchase that he made while lying about having been addicted to drugs. that's a felony. we're told that's going to be resolved through a pretrial diversion program. it won't go on his record as a felony. this adds up to no jail time, we believe, for hunter biden, probation likely in this case. i'm here in wilmington where we expect the court documents to be filed sometime today. but a resolution to a long-running five-year investigation that included

other elements of potential allegations that mr. biden may have represented foreign interests without disclosing. no charges on that, obviously, no corruption charges. simply misdemeanor counts of failure to file taxes that should result in probation and a plea agreement here filed in wilmington. >> thank you very much. and joyce vance, thank you as well for jumping on the air waves for us. well for jumping on the air waves for us we're traveling all across america, talking to people about their hearts. wh-who wants to talk about their heart! [honking] how's the heart? how's your heart? how's your heart? - it's good. - is it? aah, i don't know. it's okay. - it's okay! - yeah. - good. - you sure? i think so. how do you know? it doesn't come with a manual,

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. 40 past the hour. an urgent search and rescue operation is under way 370 miles off the coast of canada looking for any signs of a small submersible missing since sunday. it was taking paying passengers down to see the wreck of the titanic. joining us now with more is nbc

news correspondent tom costello live at the coast guard command center in boston. so many questions. >> there are so many questions, tom. if you can, just outline for our viewers that people that went into that submersible, they knew how dangerous this was. i read that they had to sign a waiver that talked about them being killed like three times on the first page. >> reporter: they understood the risks, according to all of the disclosures that they had to sign. let me just tell you the latest from coast guard command just this morning. a canadian aircraft dropped a sonar buoy to listen for any sounds inside the water to help them identify and find that submersible. in the meantime, it is an all-out search racing against time. on sunday morning when the sub went into the water, it had four days of air on board. two days have since passed, so

the clock is ticking. in the cold north atlantic an all-hands-on-deck search and rescue operation looking for any signs of a small, private submersible. the five people on board are missing since sunday after going to explore the titanic wreckage. >> it is a challenge to conduct a search in that remote area, but we are deploying all available assets. >> reporter: it's a 21-foot submersible named titan made of titanium and carbon fiber owned by oceangate. tours cost as many as $250,000. billionaire hamish harding was on board. on instagram sunday he signed his name on the logo as he announced he'd be diving to the titanic. also on board, a

pakistani-british businessman and his son. other night oceangate released a new statement. our entire focus is on the well-being of the crew and every step possible is being taken to bring the five crew members back safely. last year the company's founder and ceo discussed the ongoing fascination with the titanic. >> we have a number of people that come with us, people referred to as titaniacs. >> reporter: airline searches and sonar buoys are being dropped. considered the world's most famous shipwreck, the titanic rested at a treacherous depth of 2 1/2 miles. 1500 people died when the ship

sank in 1912. now search teams are in a race against the clock for this missing sub, oxygen running low. we mentioned that the canadians have dropped sonar buoys. i asked what they're listening for. they're listening for sounds of the sub, but also tapping or voices that might indicate people inside are alive. they've got a big challenge. the canadians and the american coast guards do not have the capability to go down deep and affect a rescue. only navys have that capability and they don't have a lot of equipment. the canadian and u.s. navys are rushing resources to the area, but again, they may only have two days left of oxygen, if that. >> nbc's tom costello, thank you for that report. and we have much more ahead on two developing breaking news stories. first, hunter biden expected to

plead guilty to two federal misdemeanor counts of failing to pay his taxes. and donald trump faces a trial date of august 14th in the classified documents case. "morning joe" is back in just a moment. case. "morning joe" is back in just a moment clinically proven to remove skin tags safely in as little as one treatment. the promise of america is freedom, equality, but right now, those pillars of our democracy are fragile and our rights are under attack. reproductive rights, voting rights, the right to make your own choices and to have your voice heard. we must act now to restore and protect these freedoms for us and for the future, and we can't do it without you. we are the american civil liberties union.

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shingrix is now zero dollars for almost everyone. ask your doctor about shingrix today. we are following two breaking developments this hour, the trump-appointed u.s. attorney for delaware has reached a plea agreement with hunter biden in which he is expected to plead guilty to two federal misdemeanor counts of failing to pay his taxes. hunter biden also faces a separate gun possession charge that will likely be dismissed if he meets certain conditions, according to court documents filed on tuesday. we'll be following these documents. and also, in the former

president trump classified documents case, according to court documents, judge aileen cannon has set august 14th as the day for the trial to begin. former u.s. attorney joyce vance is back with us. the trial date is definitely interesting, especially given many were concerned that judge aileen cannon may wait a long time before she even sets one. but there are a lot of different ways that that date could be bumped, are there not? >> absolutely, mika. i think that date is best characterized as aspirational. that would be a trial within the speedy trial act time limits. but the speedy trial act is very often continued, for instance, when there are motions that need to be considered in a classifie will be used as evidence. so that i believe will not be the actual trial date. >> all right, joyce vance, thanks very much for jumping on with us. we'll be following these

developing stories. but now, for something completely different, the "sex and the city sequel" will start streaming its second season, thursday on max. let's take a sneak peek. >> hey! >> hey! how's it going? >> best getaway ever. the sun, the sex, the toasted chili salsa, i feel so alive. >> really? because it looks like you're standing around in your underwear in a weird room. >> best standing around in my underwear in a weird room ever. jay got caught in a costume setting for their tv pilot, so i'm taking their sensory deprivation tank appointment. >> that doesn't sound like you. >> it is the new me. best me ever! >> joining us now is emmy, tony and grammy award winning actress cynthia nixon who plays miranda on the show. she also serves as an executive producer. so, really great to have you back on the show. >> thank you. pleasure to be here.

>> tell us, first of all, i love that these characters are on a different stage in their life. can you describe for those who haven't caught on to "and just like that" what they're seeing because these women, as we watched in the "sex and the city," they have been through a lot. they have a lot of life experience. what has changed for these characters? >> well, i mean, i think one thing that always has been great about the original show and our new show is they allowed us to evolve and change and they also allowed us to age. so, for miranda, she was a corporate attorney for many years, for decades, and she kind of woke up one day, i think it was partly a combination of trump and a combination of global warming and the migrant ban and the george floyd -- everything kind of came together and she was, like, i don't want my tombstone to read here lies miranda, she was a corporate lawyer. and she decided she didn't want to be part of the problem anymore, she wanted to be part of the solution, so she ditched her job and she's now -- she's

now training to be a human rights lawyer, she has left her marriage, and she has fallen in love with che diaz, a nonbinary character. >> long runway, time for many acts, sounds like something familiar to me, fantastic. i'm going to give the next question to jonathan lemire, because he is obsessed, he's still watching "sex and the city" reruns and like the whole thing. big. the character big. that freaked him out. and he now wants to ask a whole bunch of questions. jonathan, only one for you. only one. >> appreciate that. cynthia, we are thrilled you're here. >> thank you. >> so you caught us up with miranda. no spoilers, of course. but set the action for us as to where this next season begins and what are some things that fans should be looking for? >> so, carrie, as people know and mika just alluded to died last year, so carrie is a widow.

and she spent, you know, last season trying to grapple with that, and i mean, i think that's what the title means "and just like that," something terrible or wonderful can happen in your life and it can transform immediately. so we find her, you know, having moved a little bit away from his death and trying to get back to her life. we see charlotte grappling with, you know, having been in mommy mode for so long, and now considering maybe wanting something more in her life. >> what's it like going back and revisiting such an iconic character, iconic series in a different context, you know, decades later, and do you feel at all frozen in time then or now or how does it -- did it pick up -- did you pick up seamlessly where you left off? >> i think it was pretty seamless, honestly. we know these characters so well. we know each other so well.

and, i mean, one thing is we really wanted to, if we revisited it, we wanted to keep what was good and improve what was not. and so it was always a very white show, so we have these incredible new characters played by these unbelievable actors, and i'm so thrilled that, you know, when we were -- we put out for these unbelievable people, karen pitman, nicole ari parker, arena choudhary and they said yes and that it is actually the new people on our show, they didn't try to youthen us. the people they brought on were very much our peers. so, a lot of the first season was introducing them, and getting into the -- through the eposition and now i feel like we hit our stride and we're hitting the ground running, which is exciting. >> since the new season of "and just like that" is streaming on max starting this thursday, can you give a few teasers, give away a little bit of what's going to happen? >> i mean, i will just -- i will

just say that when we left miranda at the end of the last season, she was, for the first time in her life, maybe, following her heart instead of her head and following che out to los angeles where they were shooting a pilot, a sitcom. so, we'll pick miranda up in los angeles, which is definitely not her natural habitat. >> all right. once again "and just like that," the new season starts streaming this thursday. cynthia nixon, thank you so much and you can catch it on max, everyone. that does it for us this morning. ana cabrera picks up the coverage after a quick final break. era picks up the coverage after a quick final break. for too long, big pharmaceutical companies have bought off politicians so they can get away with ripping us off. that's changing now. joe biden just capped the price of insulin for seniors at $35 a month.

gave medicare the power to negotiate lower prescription drug prices. and prices are already starting to go down. the out-of-pocket cost is dropping for 27 drugs. [narrator] learn how the inflation reduction act will save you money. from prom dresses inflat to workoutsn act and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination. ♪ [typing] you were made to act spontaneously. we were made to help plan accordingly. ♪

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