competent, incredibly wise. and, you know, in some ways you want to say this is a wonderful way to go. i hate saying that, that he's now in the spot that he loved most beneath the sea, which was titanic. he spent a lot of time mapping that seafloor and exploring more than anyone else, in fact. the smiles, behaviors, the explorer, it's going to be tough to know which one of those, the whole person, it's going to be tough to realize that he's gone. >> david gallo, appreciate it. i'm sorry for your loss and everybody's loss in what is a tragic situation. that's going to do it for me today. "deadline white house" starts right now. hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in the east. we're following several big

stories today including developments big ones in jack smith's prosecution of donald trump and the classified documents case. trust me we'll get to them shortly. but we begin with the breaking news on a story that has captivated the world's attention all week long. late this afternoon exploration company oceangate confirmed the titan and all five of its passengers onboard have died. the vessel went missing over the weekend as it attempted to tour the wreckage of the titanic at the bottom of the ocean more than 2 miles beneath the surface of the ocean. in just the last hour the coast guard announced the end of a days long rescue effort. >> this morning an rov, a remote operated vehicle, from the vessel "horizon arctic" discovered the tail cone of the titan submersible approximately 1,600 feet from the bow of the titanic on the sea floor.

the rov subsequently found additional debris. in consultation with experts from within the unified command the debris is consistent with the catastrophic loss of the pressure chamber. upon this determination we immediately notified the families. >> in a statement oceangate said this. quote, these men were true explorers who shared a distinct spirit of adventure and a deep passion for exploring and protecting the world's oceans. our hearts are with these five souls and every member of their families during this tragic time. we grieve the loss of life and joy they brought to everyone they knew. this heart breaking update comes daws after an international search operation that covered more than 10,000 square miles, an area roughly the size of massachusetts. now as officials try to understand exact lewhat happened

with the titan, questions are swirling over just how safe the vessel was before it embarked on its tragic last journey. "the new york times" is reporting this, that in the last few years oceangate faced multiple warnings about the craft's safety as it pushed the bondries of deep sea tourism. "the new york times" reporting, quote, oceangate faced dire calls from more than three dozen people, industry leaders, deep sea explorers, and oceanographers who warned in a letter to its chief executives, stockton rush, its company's approach could lead to potentially catastrophic problems with the titanic mission. let's bring into our coverage josh gates. he turned down a trip to the titanic on oceanpgate's titan submersible due to concerns he had. also joining us the director of underwater forensics investigators tom maddux. he kwardinated a submersible

visit to the titanic wreckage in 2005. first, josh, i know you know some of the people involved and now known to be deceased. i extend my deep sympathies. and i wonder your reaction as someone who can get into the mind of he or she who would like to be in a small vessel and dropped to the bottom of the ocean. it's not for everybody. >> no. look, i just heard this news like everybody else just a few minutes ago. it's obviously really distressing. my heart breaks for the families of the five people aboard titan. it's a really, really sad outcome to this. i think like everyone i had pray for a miracle here right up until that press conference. look, you know, these people -- these passengers, they're people who shared a passion for exploration. they shared a passion for the titanic. i think we should have a lot of compassion for them and a lot of admiration for them for doing this. you know, as you said it's not for everyone.

and getting into deep sea submersible titan or otherwise takes a lot of determination, takes a lot of courage. you have to be in a very unique mental place to do that, and so i think these people were very brave, very courageous people. i think that's something we should remember here today. >> josh, there are public reports about concerns about the culture around safety concerns for this vessel. can you tell us what your understanding is about what the extra risks were perhaps with this vessel and this mission? >> sure. i myself traveled up to work with stockton at oceangate headquarters in 2021. we were considering doing a special on the titanic for my series. we spent a few days up there and i dove in titan with stockton, kind of a shakedown dive getting it ready for its missions, really its first missions with customers that coming summer. and i couldn't get satisfied with the safety of the platform.

i think what people have to understand here is the titan is unlike any other submersible built to go down to the titanic. every other sub built to go down there as a special sphere welded together with steel alloy and titanium, and the titan was made from a carbon fiber composite, and because of that it was much lighter, and because it was much lighter it could be made much bigger. every other sub that goes down to the titanic is a two or three passenger mission. but this carbon fiber material which is a real space age polymer, it can be ten times stronger than steel, but only if it's engineered to exact specifications. and one of the real unknown with a sub like titan is how that material performs over time. how many pressure cycles can it withstand before it fatigues? how do you measure that fatigue with carbon fiber? they were using an acoustic

measuring system. fundamentally i had real reservations and backed out of a trip on titan because i simply felt the vehicle could not be compared to anything. there was no way to bench mark it. >> josh, did you share those concerns with your friends and peers at oceangate? and if you did, what did they say? >> sure. look, i think everyone at ocean fp gate was of course well aware of the construction of titan. it's an incredibly novel innovative way to build something. this material is wildly used. it's what makes up the boeing dream liner and airbus 350. carbon fiber is a safe material. it's just not been extensively tested ipdeep sea operations like this. and so i just couldn't get comfortable with titan because of that. i felt it needed more time to be tested. i think there are still big questions to be answered here about really the thoroughness of actual deep water testing of titan before its missions. but, you know, i think that the time for that is coming. i think today i'm really focused

on the families of the individuals aboard. look, i think the best way i can put it is in terms of stockton and his operation, i admire his vision. i admire his adventurous, innovative spirit, but i think at the same time it's possible to have real questions about his own calculations of risk and the way in which he calculated risk for people that he was taking down in this sub. >> tom, i have 755 questions for you as well, but first your reaction to this very sad loss of human life. >> well, first of all, i'm actually -- my condolences to the family and friends of those who perished in this expedition, and also i'd like to offer my condolences and heartfelt sympathy to the people onboard the support vessel, some of which i know. and we need to recognize that

first. as josh said i think that's foremost right now before all the criticism and all the, you know, expectations are met and we have to figure out what really happened. that's going to take a while to do. but it's -- it's a gut wrenching feeling. we all held onto hope they would be found. >> tom, what is the market for titanic tourism? this is something that i didn't know very much about. i enjoy and consume documentaries, which are the end product. but of course that means a lot of people go down and do that journalism at the bottom of the ocean, an incredibly dangerous thing. i've also seen some of the families related to the original titanic disaster who view that as a sacred space. don't like the idea of this kind of tourism. can you just give us some background about the industry itself? >> you're right. i think there's always been

controversy 2005 and even before when we first went to titanic. there were those who felt we shouldn't be on it. there were others who felt that exploration is important. i'd like to also say that a lot of people are calling these rich adventures. but in order to be an explorer, you have to be an adventurer or you wouldn't go. exploration is important for the rest of the world. i don't know the answer to whether it's appropriate or not. i think that's an individual call. it certainly is a graveyard. a lot of people perished there, and i can tell you when we were there it was a very, very solemn time that we were there. none of us forgot about those who perished before. and we were very solemn and respectful about how we can -- you know, how we maintained our operation there. we learned a lot. and i think those things on exploration offers a lot i know to the world on the things they find and things they surmise. just for an example on all the

titanic dives prior to this we've discovered over 30 species of life unknown before those dives, so there's always something. and hopefully these five didn't perish in vain, that when we get all the facts together we find out -- you know, all the sides come together and we find something positive for civilization and for man kind. >> tom, i did want to ask you about what happens now. will they be able to recover what's left of the vessel? >> well, certainly that's the intent, but it has to be found first. i we can speculate a lot of my own opinion is from the beginning i didn't want to believe it, but my speculation was there was a catastrophic failure on the descent. in that case that sub had a long way to go subjected to the currents and depending on its buoyancy it could have traveled

quite a distance. i imagine they'll go back to where they found the debris and see if there's a cookie crumb pattern of debris that would lead them eventual tee the pressure hull. >> josh, can you tell me what should have happened? can jow just take me inside what it's like to sort of snap-in or lock into the vessel, how long it takes to submerged, and what was supposed to happen on this mission? >> yeah, these are fairly extensive missions. you go into titan. it's a very open platform inside. there's really nothing to buckle into. it's a really open cabin, and much has been made of whether it was comfortable or not to just sort of be laying around in there. it certainly is a lot room yr than most submersibles that go down to that depth. titan is bolted shut from the outside. it for me is one of the more unnerving parts of its design is that there is really no way out of titan from the interior. there is no top hatch because it

would interpret the carbon fiber hull and its integrity. so you are bolted in from the outside. and there is a long descent where after a few minutes you're in darkness. there are the lights of the sub on the outside, but you make a lengthy descent down to the bottom, a multi-hour descent to get down there. and depending on the vehicle's ability to locate titanic, because some of these missions in the past with titan, they couldn't reach the wreck, they couldn't find the wreck. so your time on titanic really depends on your ability to locate that wreckage, and then 45 minutes or an hour or more to get back up to the surface. and so a fairly four, five, six-plus hour mission in this sub would be a normal procedure. obviously i agree with the assessment i think it happened fairly immediately when the loss of communications happened, where they would have been only partway down to the wreckage. i think at that time of loss of

comms, it's likely there was a catastrophic failure of the hull at that point. it's not sure or known when it occurred, but i think the fact there was a loss of comms and the titan did not resurface probably tells us the failure did happen then. titan did have onboard multiple redundancies in terms of losing weights, both computer controlled and manual ways to shed weight and return to the surface. and so the fact that didn't happen i think that tells us it probably suffered that catastrophic failure at the times of loss of comms. >> let me play some footage from cbs news and ask both of you about it on the other side. >> we can use these off the shelf components. i got these from camper world. we run the whole thing with this game controller. >> come on! >> it seems like this submersible has some elements of

mcgyvery jerry riggedness. you're putting construction pipes as ballast. >> i don't agree with that assumption of it. everything else can fail, your thrusters can go, your lights can go, you're still going to be safe. >> tom, it must be eerie knowing everything that you beth know about this small universe of people with this passion. that was stockton rushed. he was asked about whether it's mcgyver-ish to use a console for gaming. and i suppose if this had been a triumph of technology we wouldn't be asking this question, but how much of an outlier was the technology and the safety record of this vessel and this company in your view? >> well, again, i hesitate to even opine on that because

explorrers and people like stockton rush they come up with ideas and they push them forward. you know, we fly -- fly by wire with airplanes flying by small joysticks and ships maneuvering over the ocean with small joysticks. whether this was the proper cape ability is yet to be seen. i don't know enough about it or the science or technology behind it, so i hesitate to condemn it at this point. i think i'll wait until all the facts come in. that's what we do. we investigate and look at all the facts before we start making decisions. but you're right, if it had been triumphant he would have been a hero. i'd say if the wright brothers had crashed and died, they would have been labeled as the village idiots, but because they didn't, they changed the world. i think we step back at this point, grieve over the loss, reflect our minds and see what we can collect out of this to make some kind of a positive

outcome. >> tom, i mean you both know based on the demands that we've had to get to you talk to you to understand the mission and the people who were driven to go on the mission, i think there's a segment of the population that really wants to understand what makes someone do something that if you're claustrophobic or afraid of heights or depths seems crazy. can you speak to that, tom? >> well, courage is identified is not having the lack of fear but overcoming your fear. in my instance i like to explore. as a matter of fact, a sat with my very young daughter in 2005 five days before our mission to titanic with a russian as 28 sub became tangled and stuck in 1,6f00 feet of water with nine souls onboard. there was a massive search deploying assets from italy and around the world and many places

and luckily that sub was recovered. but it certainly makes you sit there and wonder about what i'm about to do they're in 600 feet and i'm going to 12,500 or 2 1/2 miles down. it was unsettling. it was a conversation can my family and my wife and my children about why do i do it. and the answer that came back in my head is because i need to -- i don't know the answer, but like i said adventure and overcoming fear of pushing forward is what part of us do. and i believe that society benefits from that overall. >> josh, do you think there will be any impact, any sort of collateral pause taken in such missions, any additional safety procedures, any regulation of this kind of adventure or excursion? >> yeah, i think just to build onto the point i agree that to those who question why one would do this, why one would ever go

down to the titanic i think we have to understand that, you know, certain places hold great personal meaning for people. you know, and titanic has fascinated the world since the night that she sank. and for people onboard titan this is something that had great personal meaning to them. and there are people who climb mountains, people who do ultra marathons and base jump and parachute. i might not do those things but i certainly don't begrudge people who do. to those saying we shouldn't go to titanic i think that it is a time capsule and it connects us to a part of our history as all shipwrecks do, and i think that's one of the reasons it has such an allure for people. i think in places like gettysburg, gettysburg is a battlefield, it is a graveyard of lost souls and yet it is a place people find great meaning in visiting, and i see titanic in that way as well. i think this will have a huge

impact. i think we might have just seen one of the last tourist trips to titanic maybe for decades to come. i think there's going to be real reckoning about this about the way these vehicles are certified and their ability to take people out to the ocean. i wouldn't go so far as to say we'll never go back to the titanic again, but i think we're going to see a real assessment of risk and how these vehicles are able to take people down. but i think that for today i really think we should be focusing in many ways on the people that were brave to go down there, on their families. and i have to say all of the people that came to their aid, so many resources were moved into position over the last few days from europe and from the u.s. and a lot of really -- really hardworking brave people in their own right have been out there on this search and rescue mission, and so i think they deserve our admiration as well right now. >> extraordinary international rescue and now recovery effort. you're right. to both of you, i understand

from a few days i've been reading and learning about this that it is a small world, so i am sure that you can imagine being in the situation they were in ways the rest of us can't. so josh gates and tom maddux, thank you very much for starting us off today. i'm grateful, and i'm sorry for your loss. let me bring in my colleague nbc correspondent kristen dahlgren is live in boston covering all aspects of this story for us. kristen, what are you learning? >> reporter: you know, we listened to the press conference, and a lot of questions were answered there. the investigation, of course, is still going on. those rovs are continuing as we speak. we believe they've located that debris field somewhere around 8:30 this morning, so they continue to search. there are two remote operated vehicles that are looking to find the answers that so many of us have. you know, questions like what happened, when did this happen?

and they're starting to piece it together. so the question about when it happened, they said you know what we've been listening for the past few days for any sign of anything, and they would not hear anything that would be inindicative of a catastrophic implosion. they do believe it happened in those initial hours when it lost contact on sunday or certainly before those rescue crews got out to the scene the aircraft were dropping those sona buoys. they believe it happen in the column where the debris field was found. they were asked could it have hit the titanic and that could have caused something, but they said really it debris field was in front of it itanpic in an area simply soft ground. there was none of the titanic debris there, so that would indicate to them something happened above and then that fell down. as far as the pressure cabin, they were able to find pieces of it. they found the nose cone, they

found the tale of the pressure cabin and so that indicates to them this was an implosion, that it was something that happened very suddenly, very quickly for the crew onboard. and they were asked whether or not they'd be able to recover any of those crew members. and they talked about how it's an unforgiving place down there, it's very dark, there were currents. and after what happened they were not confident at all they'd be able to return any remains to the families. so starting to piece it together. those rovs will continue on site there although they will start to demobilize that massive rescue operation going on. they had nine vessels on the site there that were working hard on this rescue effort. they'll begin to send\those home over the next 24 hours or so, nicolle. >> kristen, our guests believe even at this early point that will fundamentally alter and perhaps for the time being and

foreseeable future tourism to the bottom of the ocean, to the titanic site. any reporting to suggest that is already what folks have in mind there? >> reporter: well, it's certainly what a lot of people were talking about, and there was a question at that news conference about whether this would change sort of how these vessels are rated. this was in international waters, so it didn't have to have any type of safety rating. there was no sort of governing body overseeing it. the coast guard said it was a little too early to be talking about an investigation into the safety of this vessel and what may have gone wrong there, and that would be sort o by a different agency, then the coast guard. but a lot of people, you know, talking about that, and certainly it will give pause to people who are considering something like this as we go. and i imagine over the next few weeks we'll learn a lot more about the concerns over this

vessel, over what its testing was like and answer some of the questions that people who, you know, were going to go on it and decided not to go have raised. and so that's -- those are threads that we'll continue to follow. >> kristen dahlgren, thank you so much on your reporting on this remarkable news day. we're grateful to get to talk to you. when we come we'll turn to our top political stories. special counsel jack smith has already handed over the goods, the first batch of evidence in his classified documents case to the ex-president and his legal team. it includes a long witness list and multiple recordings. that's new. a big up-close look at the government's case against donald trump is next. plus an incredibly chaotic 24 hours in congress capped off with two maga figures fighting viciously on the floor of the house. former white house chief of staff ron klain will join us to tell us what he misses most

about his old job. all those stories and more when deadline white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ick break. don't go anywhere.

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today the disgraced twice impeached twice indicted liable for sexual abuse ex-president and his legal team are getting their first look at a summer reading list of sorts. care of special counsel jack smith, and here's a hint -- while donald trump was explaining why he was too busy to return the chasified documents in his boxes and how he used the boxes to store his pants, special counsel jack smith was getting down to the business of prosecuting this case. turning over the first batch of

evidence against the disgraced ex-president in the classified documents case. and it is not for the faint of heart. it includes this, quote, documents obtained via subpoena, evidence obtained via search warrants, transcripts of grand jury testimony taken before a grand jury in the district of columbia, transcripts of grand jury testimony taken in the southern district of florida. witness interviews conducted through may 12, 2023, key documents, and photographs. and complete copies of closed circuit television footage. eagle eyed viewers will notice a very interesting new detail tucked into jack smith's latest court filing. among that mountain of evidence being turned over are, quote, interviews -- plural, of defendant defendant trump conducted by non-government entities which were reported with his consent and obtain bide the special counsel's office including the july 21, 2021, recorded interview donald trump provided to a publisher and writer. again, interviews plural in the filing, suggesting there may be

multiple recordings of donald trump, not just the one we know about from the indictment where he's caught on tape waving around classified military documents during an interview at bedminster. now the guardian is out saying federal prosecutors were examining the antics at bedminster, quote, from the outset that, quote, within weeks of the fbi search at mar-a-lago federal prosecutors were developing evidence on that front. quote, the indications of classified documents at bedminster so alarmed prosecutors that they focused part of the investigation on whether trump might have transferred materials or disclosed materials there in addition refusing them to return to the government. they're so alarmed by the disgraced ex-president's handling of classified documents but to prosecutors who were so alarmed we say so are we. joining our conversation is former assistant u.s. attorney and legal analyst glenn kirschner and msnbc contributor

katie benner is here, she's been covering the classified documents since the beginning. former fbi intelligence officer pete struck is with us. pete, to you and glenn, there was a surprise of when we learn what jack smith has, but those on the inside say of course he's developed all this evidence and of course it's copious amounts. what do you make of this latest filing and a recording of donald trump that is indicted in the indictment itself. >> nicolle, i think you're exactly right. i don't think it comes as a surprise to anybody within the team or anyone who has worked in government before. keep in mind we don't have the slightest idea of the totality of information that jack smith and his team have assembled. every court document whether it's an affidavit for a search warrant, information in an indictment, does not contain and

is not required to contain the totality of information that the government has in its possession. so it stands to reason, you know, not only has there been a grand jury but separate and apart from that grand jury, this investigation has been going on for some time, so subpoenas, voluntary interviews, potentially search warrants, all the things that have been collected, and if i'm on trump's defense team today and yesterday is a terrifying day because the volume of information they suddenly have in their lap, all these different people giving accounts of what happened through the course of the mishandling of the classified information is suddenly available to them. and it is i'm sure an overwhelming amount of information. i'm sure we are going to see more of it certainly if we go to trial. and one last point this is only the unclassified discovery. we have yet to go through the secret process. what thought the defense finally

has in their hands is not anywhere near the complete set of evidence the government has. so there's more to come and right now it's interesting we're starting to hear information about this because there is a protective order. but we start getting little details about the things that have been turned over, certainly some of that through the government's filings themselves. >> glenn kirschner, i have no many questions about trump's pattern of witness tampering preemptively during an investigation. and i guess he's never been at this point in a federal criminal investigation because when he was president they didn't take this step. but i wonder what risks they are for the department of handing this over to trump and his lawyers. >> you know, there are risks because protective orders are only as good as the people who are subject to those protective orders. you know, it's small consolation if donald trump were to tamper with a witness to the detriment

of the case and witness, yeah, it might be great the judge might be able to hold him accountable, hold him in contempt and possibly incarcerate him, but the damage has been done. at this point you can only confine a man for but one life, and look at all the charges that are pending against donald trump. but, you know, if donald trump was ever inspired to tamper with witnesses, nicolle, i have a feeling that will be at its zenith when he reads those grand jury transcripts. because, first of all, the prosecutor said we're giving them all over, we're giving them over early. and, you know, people are inclined to say one thing when they're standing in front of donald trump knowing what he wants them to say, and they are probably saying a whole other thing when they're under oath under the penalties of perjury before a grand jury required to testify about donald trump's misdeeds. and these we believe are donald

trump's. we know they are his own attorneys. they are close associates. heck, they may be cabinet members and family members. so i think this will be a real eye opening moment for donald trump when he starts pouring through these grand jury transcripts and he sees what all of these people have testified about regarding his misconduct. >> you know, katey benner, i'm trying to think if there's any parallel in sort of trump as a political figure, and the closest i can come is don megan's transcribed interviews and don megan's chief of staff notes, largely a footnote in mueller's report. don megan was fired somewhere along the way as trump sunk in how much tom megan spent with the investigators. i don't know trump has been in this position before, reading evidence that has been given about him to investigators, people that he's still around.

i mean evan corcoran is still around. his personal aides and personal staff at mar-a-lago are still there. we haven't heard of any them being fired. what are you watching for as this case moves forward? >> we might learn more about who the witnesses are. we noticed lately his legal team and people around him do tend to share a lot of information that maybe they shouldn't. and the other thing about this you're right don megan is the first person that came to mind when i saw how many witness interviews he conducted. they were subpoenaing text messages, their phones, their devices, video footage. there's going to be things donald trump and his team sees that are evidence that the special counsel has gathered that has really nothing to do with whether or not people have betrayed him on purpose but simply because of the team around him and donald trump himself were not careful when they spoke about these documents, when they moved these

documents around, when they took pictures of them and texted them to one another. that is what is going to in the end probably really hurt him, the fact there was so much documentation and so much talk about these documents among so many people it was just not a well-kept secret he had them. it's incredible this special counsel's office was able to seek out all this information. >> trump lost his collective you know what this morning and was tweeting to his friends in congress in all caps all morning long, please investigate the political witch hunts, plural. at least somebody has finally told him he's in deep doo doo on both prongs of jack smith's probe. it is a question now he has before him the transcripts as katie is saying not just what he said but what he said among themselves, what he communicated

them to do. i mean jack smith clearly has all of it. is that evidence secure in trump's hands? i guess i just keep wondering, and maybe this is my trump ptsd from covering him for seven years. are there any concerns about turning over the evidence at this point? or is that what you have to do no matter what? >> well, nicolle, i absolutely think there's cause for concern, but it is legally required. there is -- you know, the government must turn over the evidence it intends on using. it obviously has to turn over anything that's exculpatory material. but if you're going to use anything in trial, you've got to turn it over. one of the very interesting things is that trump could only view it in the presence of his attorneys, and that's something a little unusual in my experience. the other criminal defendants haven't had those same sort of restrictions and the government is aware and his attorney is

aware his penchant to read and have an outburst of something he's told is something he's done in the entirety of his public life. and keep in mind this is going to be a resolving process. this has been and likely is a massive amount of communication. there are things like interviews, subpoenas to search warrant material. all those things you can't sit down and go through that in 20 minutes. you can't sit down with your attorney and get a brief over a half hour of everything that's in there. i expect the bleeding coming out of mar-a-lago is going to happen for some time. and i'm curious to see as he starts looking at in particular interviews and grand jury testimony from people from staff to secret service agents potentially what his sort of responses are going to be. >> so amazing. all right, no one's going anywhere. we're going to turn to that brand new reporting on what has been one of the big questions for those of us on the outside about the classified documents

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(vo) this is sadie, she's on verizon. the network she can count on. ♪ the barnes firm, injury attorneys and now she's got myplan, the game-changing new plan that lets her pick exactly what she wants and save on every perk. sadie is getting her plan ready for a big trip. travel pass, on. nice iphone. cute couple. trips don't last forever, neither does summer love. so, sadie is moving on. apple music, check! introducing myplan. the first and only unlimited plan to give you exactly what you want, so you only pay for what you need. act now and get iphone 14 pro max on us when you switch. it's your verizon. one of the open questions at least for the viewing public about the investigation into donald trump's mishandling of classified documents has been about what went down at bedminster. we're coming up on the one-year anniversary of the fbi search of mar-a-lago, but what about bedminster? well, there's new reporting in the guardian that fills in some

of the blanks. quote, within weeks of fbi search of mar-a-lago the justice department sought to act on indications of classified documents at bedminster when it told the trump legal team that prosecutors believed the former president still possessed classified materials. quote, the message was clear, arrange for new searches of all of the trump properties because as of that time the only place that had been combed for classified documents was the mar-a-lago resort. both the prosecutors told the trump legal team that they were not in the business of specifying specific locations because they might not know about all the properties in the former president's control. but notably they did specifically request a new search of bedminster. as "the guardian" puts it prosecutors were looking at bedminster from the outset. and because bedminster features prominently in the indictment itself with that anteic dote of trump crumbling papers to give a

bizarre explanation of what he was really doing. but it shows he had knowledge several of the things he'd taken were classified and the recording seems indicate he was waving something around that no one should see because it's super secret. >> well, nicolle, there's certainly very compelling things that occurred in bedminster from establishing elements of a crime. what's interesting about this reporting is how interested and how early investigators were interested in what may have been at bedminster. certainly if the reporting is correct immediately following around the search of mar-a-lago. so the question in my mind is this just something where they knew that trump moved typically boxes with him, his favorite shiny things he packed up wherever he went and took these things with him, or they expected to find things at mar-a-lago that they didn't, or they found things at mar-a-lago that indicated they might have been at bedminster previously. it's not surprising i think to

anybody from what we know from trump's behavior and sort of carrying these things around with him. but it's also clear it doesn't appear there was a search warrant for bedminster search tower or anything else. whatever the suspicions it didn't like they ever hit the probable cause standard to get the warrant for anyone other than mar-a-lago. that interest is not surprising but certainly concerning because i think there's a very real chance the government still doesn't have all the classified information that donald trump took with him when he left the white house. >> glenn, i have a two-part question for you. one, i mean is it too late to look for anything at bedminster? and let me see if i can try to answer some of -- one of pete's theories with some of more of this guardian reporting which is great. when the new searches took place they found the classified documents. the results left prosecutors uneasy given the earlier evidence about indications of classified documents at the

club, the people said and promped them to ask the trump team to custodian of records to contest no further documents remained in trump's possession. the absence led prosecutors to suspect trump treated it like a vacation home where he took boxes of things away from mar-a-lago at the start of the summer and returned all his things to mar-a-lago at the end of the season, people said. we know one of his departed lawyers talked about a search at bedminster. so we know that the guardian's reporting was something on the minds of trump's very own defense lawyers. what do you make of what is for us question marks around bedminster? >> to me, nicolle, it's always been intensely curious that we never saw a search warrant executed at bedminster. and i think pete hit the nail right on the head, it all boiled down to probable cause, but what did the prosecutors know as of august 2, 2022, that they were basically dealing with, you

know, a documents terrorist because at that point they learned that donald trump had violated a subpoena setting aside all the negotiations which didn't produce all the documents, he willingly violated a subpoena for the return of those documents and committing a crime and they were instantly suspicious he also may have had classified documents at bedminster. there's one tried and true way to find out if he still had documents at bedminster. it is to put all the evidence you have in an affidavit in support of an application and search warrant and if a judge agrees with you you meet the probable cause standard, you execute that search warrant at bedminster. i find it curious that after they knew precisely what donald trump had done, the length to which he would go to unlawfully retain those documents, they began negotiating with he and his lawyers. they said why don't you get some

contractors to look around and see if you can find any documents at bedminster. the only reasonable explanation to this prosecutor is they must not believe they had probable cause to obtain a search warrant or i think that's precisely what they would have done. >> katie, it also gets back to the strength of what they had at the mar-a-lago property. they had surveillance tape. they had the pictures of the boxes and they had all these bogus attestations they seemed to know from go were not this day. we only know what we know. we don't know how much, the mountain of things we don't know that jack smith does, but even if you compare what we know about bedminster and what we know about mar-a-lago it's clear from reading documents that the justice department has been transparent about releasing all through the process, that he had a lot of sources and methods that informed their decisions to seek a court-approved warrant to

search mar-a-lago. >> yes. we know from our reporting the team under jack smith and the team that existed before jack smith was made, the special counsel, that team had robust debate about every step of the investigation, and they tended to, in many cases, err on the side of caution, they did not want to take a step that would make it possible for the defense to mount some sort of, a robust reason to have the case thrown out, or even a robust defense at trial, because the government overstepped, overreached or done something too risk pip concerned if it was going to trial are we in a position where we can say that we only took the steps that were well within or rights to take and from this story we get the sense there was an element of risk and in executing a search warrant for bedminster or requesting that of the courts and so they decided not to, but it doesn't surprise me given

some of the cautions that were taken and some debates that occurred within the investigative team leading up to the august raid on mar-a-lago. >> katie benner, glenn kirschner, thank you so much for being with us today. a quick break for us. we will be right back. k for us we will be right back. with downy infusions, let the scent set the mood. feel the difference with downy. moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day. many taking rinvoq saw clear or almost-clear skin while some saw up to 100% clear skin. and, they felt dramatic and fast itch relief some as early as 2 days.

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insurrection. gary michael brown, might not sound familiar to you yet, but he's a form 0er aide to the disgraced ex-president donald trump and appears to have testified in court today before the federal grand jury. brown served as deputy director offee lection day operations for the trump campaign and seen today entering the space in the federal courthouse where the grand jury meets. accompanied by his attorney stanley woodward. "new york times" reported brown coordinated trump advisor boris epshteyn and mike roman the trump campaign's director election day operations in the leadup to january 6th. the january 6th select committee subpoenaed brown last year in connection with the fake i lectors plot alternate slates of electors were to be sent to congress. as reported some fake elector appeared before the grand jury last week. january 6th lead investigator our guest in the next hour helping us make sense what this means in terms of where jack smith may be in his criminal investigation.

up next for us, the hard right's grip on capitol hill causing quite a circus in washington this week. former white house chief of staff to president joe biden ron klain or guest next. don't go anywhere. guest next. don't go anywhere. they didn't know about this view. or the 200-year-old tree in the backyard. or their neighbors down the hill. but one thing they did know is exactly how much they'd pay. because vrbo is different. you see the total price up front. of course, it's good to leave room for some surprises. boo! ♪ narrator: the man with the troublesome hemorrhoid enters the room. phil: excuse me? hillary: that wasn't me. narrator: said hillary, who's only taken 347 steps today. hillary: i cycled here. narrator: speaking of cycles, mary's period is due to start in three days. mary: how do they know so much about us? narrator: your all sharing health data without realizing it.

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house will be in order. [ chanting ] >> all: shame! shame! shame! shame! >> hi again everyone. back in the east a sight on the house floor yesterday. all that was missing juggling

flame thrower guy attias gop was reduced to a bar brawl between made tree ark marjorie taylor greene and bogert. impeachment manager ended in articles of impeachment for president joe biden that started less than 24 hours ago. house republicans centered adam schiff because he had audacity to tell the truth about the ties between the ex-president's 2016 campaign and vladimir putin's russia. for his part, adam schiff took this vote as a badge of honor. >> i think once donald trump threatened any republican to go along, didn't go along with his effort to censure me would get primaried. as roosevelt said, steins you can judge a person by enemies they make. jumping from the crazy people on the floor today, this resolution, i'm doing really well measured by that standard. >> today actually got worse than that. house republicans yet again used

the sacred space of the house floor to appease the twice impeached twice indicted ex-president and voting to send two committees resolution to impeach president joe biden for alleged high crimes and misdemeanors for handling at the southern border introduced yet by lauren boebert who shocked her own republican colleague wis her attempt to force a vote. speaker mccarthy avoiding what would have probably been an even more humiliating spectacle if that's even possible and potentially difficult vote for many in his caucus urged rank and file republicans behind closed doors to appose lauren boebert's resolution, sending it to committees republican lawmakers don't have to publicly go on the record to kill it. to add to this sheer lunacy and embarrassment that it is the republican party in america today, and its leader, speaker kevin mccarthy, fellow republican bomb-thrower marjorie taylor greene got into a fight

on the house floor calling boebert a little b. word, rhymes with witch on the house floor for allegedly copying her on the area of articles of impeachment. joining our conversations the man who used to have to deal with all of this stiff. form other white house chief of staff ron klain. ron klain, do you miss it? >> i don't miss this part of it, not at all. i miss the fact we made progress, worked with republican whose passed an infrom straur dill, the act and c.h.i.p. and science act american manufacturers high-tech goods again. this craziness seeing in the house now, i don't miss that at all. >> i mean, look, ads write themselves for 2024. while the president was doing all of those things including avoiding an economic catastrophe with the debt ceiling they were doing this. i mean, at some level whatever arguments he makes about

extremism on one side and governing on the other are being made by the republicans themselves. >> i think that's right. that is, i think, i don't think the american people, ones who vote ford republican members of the house, sent them there to do these political stunts. relitigating trump's op grumps as opposed to making progress in a bipartisan way bringing down prices, continuing the strong growth in our economy and continuing to make progress on things like energy independence and other issues that the president is advancing in his agenda. i don't believe people sent republicans to go to do the craziness seen in the house the past couple days. >> the president always played this outside game. not jumping in to the hysterical political crisis of the day in washington, communicating very much along the lines of what you're communicating here today about the progress. is that what we are to expect as the presidential season heats up?

>> you're going to see the president continue to advance the agenda of the american people. he's going to go back on the road next week with his invest in america agenda. building roads, bridges. getting out lead pipes. connecting people to the internet across the country, creating thousands and thousands of jobs. steve rattner did a great presentation on magic johnson "morning joe" about the boom. jobs coming back, new jobs making future of the american auto industry. department of energy approved a $9 billion project for ford and escaon creating here in the united states thousands and thousands of high-paying jobs that don't require a four-year college degree employ americans across the country making our country strong and making our community stronger and making america the lead, undisputed leader in building the auto industry of the future.

that's what we're talking about quite a bit there out on the road. >> as you know better than anyone, it's true lay split screen. right? an attempt now for rule of law and jack smith, special counsel, working under or adjacent to merrick garland to hold donald trump accountable for mishad e! mishandling of documents, nothing more sacred than miss placing documents that be can seen. what do you make of besides what president joe biden talks about processing a potential criminal trial for the ex-president, possibly the president's opponent and the president's efforts to talk about kitchen table issues that you're talking about? >> the president's going to let the legal process work its way out. of the justice department has independents from the president as it continues to pursue legal matters that involve the ex-president. and president joe biden's going

to do his job. which is govern the country, strengthen our economy, make progress on our energy future, make progress on protecting our rights and liberties. that's what the president's going to be focused on and let the system do its job with regard to these other matters you're talking about. >> and a message discipline, clearly a hallmark of the campaign as former press advocate. bringing into our conversation editor for msnbc contributor charlie sykes. you wrote about this sort of split-screen experience the next 18 months for the american people. that you could turn on the tv, actually turn it on today and learn about people who go to the bottom of the ocean, but most days you can turn on the tv and whether you're watching fox news or cnn or -- msnbc, it's difficult for ron's message about all the president's legitimate, many bipartisan accomplishments to break through. that the chaos and the crimes

trump committed still dominate a lot of the attention. what do you make of the unique challenge or is it an opportunity for president biden? >> well, it is a challenge. i mean, the clown show you saw yesterday on the house floor, inevitable when the, most prominent faces of the house gop majority are lured over into marjorie taylor greene and kevin mccarthy actually incapable saying no to donald trump when he demands this censure vote, but it is a real challenge and it is a split screen, and it does feel as if there are two different tracks in our politics, and i know there are a lot of democrats who believe that they need to talk about these policy wins, and then this is legitimate, this is what's the art of governing is about, but also sometimes feels like bringing a 300-page white paper to a gun fight. you have the clown show over on the republican side, where, in fact, they are pushing this, this incredibly bizarre series

of priorities, centered around defending and protecting donald trump and obstructing justice, and i understand the challenge that ron and his colleagues face saying, hey, could we talk about infrastructure? talk about jobs? about what's actually happening with the american economy? i wonder how difficult that will be to break through. whether or not the voters will say, well what exactly are you accomplishing in office as opposed to being drowned out by the kind of theater that we saw last night in the house of representatives and will probably see for the next year and a half. >> yeah, well a couple things break through. right? both issues that people are talking about in our communities, in their states, among their friends, and also bront-burner political existential political challenge for the republican party. removal of a 50-year constitutional right to an abortion. and i saw the vice president pretty forceful with my colleague joy reid this week. how important is it to make sure

people understand that these are republican policies to implement bans that eliminate some exceptions for life of a mother, seeing the real world implications of that now that it's been one year, women like amanda zerokski file add lawsuit in texas and pro the life carrying but almost died when she lost that baby. how important is that bridging the inside and outside conversation for the campaign and the president? >> look, i think protecting our freedoms, fundamental rights is a vital part of the campaign, a vital part of the choice america's going to face in 2024. for the president to talk about, saw the first lady this week do a round table at the white house with women's health impacted by postrestrictions on reproductive rights. something the white house will continue to focus on and key issue on the ballot in 2024. are we going to protect a woman's right to choose or see this continued con straights on their liberties, their rights and other con straights on liberties and rights.

i think this freedom agenda the president has been talking about, the vice president talking about, first lady talking about is a big part of the 2024 campaign. no question. >> charlie, seems to be one that, you know, oops. republicans freak out showing. republicans know this is a big problem for them. >> i continue to be amazed how ill-prepared they were. had 50 years to prepare for a postroe versus wade and were caught flat footed. really are the dog that caught the car, and as a results you saw a lot of punitive reformative legislation passed at the state level and now apparently there's a lot of pressure for them to go for the national ban. maybe a 15-week ban. i think what people will focus on is the, talk about states rights with so much eye wash and this will be a front and center issue throughout 2024, particularly if congress tries to pass a national ban overriding all of the legislation in the states that still protects a woman's right to choose as well as all of the

stories that you're highlighting. unintended consequences of all of this. so i mean, i'm here in wisconsin and we've seen how this issue has impacted races in wisconsin and seen i have every reason to believe they will continue to. >> ron, the other sort of side of that is something you know a lot about. the supreme court. i came up in the republican politics, when i first met you, when the supreme court was a motivator for the right. it now a political dead weight, and these justices can't get out of their own way. a clunky strat yi, alito another ethical laugh, fishing trip with a billionaire aboard a private jet. can't make it up in the other political party. the other piece of the abortion ruling is a threat to our freedoms from a super majority supreme court. how should we be prepared to watch the conversation around this extreme supreme court in a presidential election year? >> well, the conversations

already going on. president trump, who seems like the most likely republican nominee bragging he appointed justice is who overturned roe versus wade. one of the truthful things president trump said. he did appoint the judges overturning roe versus wade. putting out as a trump accomplishment. that's the difference between he and president biden. he will continue to appoint judges to a lower federal court and deployed judge whose favor freedom and believe in roe versus wade and that contrast of our courts is a big issue in 2024. >> charlie, another place for republicans have no answer. i mean when people are looking and cameras on they have to say, yes, i love them all. look at their internal polling tracks, they go, holy -- you know what! how do you think republicans run

on or away from the supreme court? >> i think try to change the subject. as often as possible, but making a really important point here. i mean, for decades the supreme court was really a hot button issue for conservatives. one of the issues motivated republican turnout for decades. i was struck by the fact that the democrats did not focus on the courts the way republicans did. i think that has been reversed. i think you've seen that around the country. that, in fact, this is now a top of mind issue. now, it is peeling away. republican women. it is peeling away, costing them some of the swing voters in the suburbs and clearly, as we've seen in places like kansas and democrats to come out. one of those v issues that seems to be re-aligning itself as one issue, re-aligni they have a way around it.

clearly, by going for a national ban i think it's super-charged. i think they believe that because it's a 15-week limit that's more moderate but i think what people will hear is a national ban, and they are going to be pushing it front and the center the time of the polls saying this is not a good issue for them. >> give you the last word, ron. personal reflections? in the white house before a lot of the public facing work, special counsel jack smith came to be fodder for any conversations anywhere for people in or out of politics. i wonder what you think personally watching some, somebody who had a job that means something around the world. an ex-american commander-in-chief now criminally charged for mishandling, willfully detaining national defense information? >> well, i'm not going to comment on the legal process in regard to donald trump. as i said i think most important the thing american people want to know, will we have a strong

economy? protect people's rights? are we going to continue to make this energy transition? what president biden is working on. four more years he'll continue to work on that and kornt to make the progress he's been making. >> ron klain, thank you so much for starting us off this hour. charlie sticks around for the hour with us. when we come back two people on opposing sides ahead of january 6th were face to face in court yesterday. talk about harrowing testimony of a pence aide and what he said about the architect of the plot to overturn the 2020 election. john eastman. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. k break. don't go anywhere. plan that lets her pick exactly what she wants and save on every perk. sadie is getting her plan ready for a big trip. travel pass, on. nice iphone. cute couple. trips don't last forever, neither does summer love. so, sadie is moving on. apple music, check! introducing myplan. the first and only unlimited plan to give you exactly what you want, so you only pay for what you need.

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and all we are demanding of vice president pence is this afternoon at 1:00 he let the legislatures of the state look into this so we get to the bottom of it and the american people know whether we have control of the directive of our government or not! >> hearing a lot about that guy, i think, in the coming months. on january 6th, insurrection, it broke through barricades, broke into the halls of the capitol, smashed windows and doors, that guy, john eastman, the architect of ex-president donald trump's coup plot was still pushing his plan as the violence is unfolding, as the law enforcement officials are engaged in medieval combat. he still wanted vice president pence to send the electoral count back to the states. as electors shattered windows, the former top lawyer to former

vice president mike pence drafted a furious email to john eastman we learned about during the january 6th committee hearings last summer. >> mr. jacob, immediately before you and the vice president were evacuated to a secure location within the capitol, you hit "send" on an email to john eastman explaining why his legal theory about the vice presidential role was wrong. you ended it stating, thanks to your bull -- [ bleep ] we are now under siege. >> two and a half years after he sent that email thanks to your bleep we're now under siege, he testified about sending that email, that moment again in an ethics proceeding against john eastman. part of the california bar to disbar him. and with us is charlie sykes and it was one of the more dramatic

moments of the select committee, these public hearings in that greg jacob is sort of the keyhole we learn eastman knew his plot was unconstitutional, illegal and while the violence was playing out he wanted it to continue and escalate. tell me the significance of mr. jacobs at this disbarment hearing in your view yesterday? >> it's really significant. jacob is the direct connection to john eastman. a very careful lawyer who looked very hard at the precedent, the legislative history and interpretation and treatment of the vice president's authority of the joint session concluded, as every legal scholar has, that the vice president had a role on january 6th, that is essentially accept the certified electors submitted by states. he told john eastman that directly before january 6th.

john eastman continued, nonetheless, to argue without basis in law something different and now that's why he's being disciplined by the california bar and jacob is exactly the counterpoint that the california bar understandably wants to use to prove that this happened. >> yeah. i mean, it's surreal. got a ground hog day aspect to it. eastman's defense for keeping his law licence is to defend theories that went down 60-1 in courts after the election. what are the stakes in this, which is not front and center, but this effort to disbar limb in california? >> yeah. the stakes are high. look, lawyers can take aggressive positions. lawyers can go to court and argue novel theories but there have to be facts that support the theories and the facts are arguable, a legal position, that would have foundation. the problem here is that john

eastman had neither. he didn't have facts, which would inform alternate or we call them slates to the electorate. election was clear president biden won. recount after recount. even if there had been factual support, no legal path for those state electors to be generated. therefore the vice president in a role had no choice but to accept those sir fighted slates. what's at stake, how aggressive were lawyers be? they can be aggressive provided this legal factual support for their position. they can't make stuff up and become serpents in the ears of clients, saying what client wants to hear that have no foundation. that happened here and why john eastman is being disciplined. >> an important piece of evidence seems essential to this is john eastman's knowledge. that his plan was unconstitutional. let me play some of greg jacobs

testimony to that effect. >> did dr. eastman ever tell you what he thought the u.s. supreme court would do if it had to decide this issue? >> yes. we had an extended discussion an hour and a half to two hours on january 5th, and when i pressed him on the point i said, john, if the vice president did what you're asking him to do we would lose 9-0 in the supreme court. and initially started it, well, i think maybe lose only 7-2. after some further discussion, acknowledged, well, yeah. you're right. we would lose 9. >> tim, you also developed evidence showing john eastman, it's illegal violating the electoral count act. is there a place in the law a lawyer knowingly advises their client to break laws, their advise is illegal is that something that gets you in the hot seat as a lawyer?

>> no. that makes it misconduct, we developed evidence beyond those snippets played from jacobs there was an email john eastman sent in october before the election essentially disputing this theory of the power of state legislatures to generate these ultimate slates of electors. even in his own words, that document said he authored, he, himself, called this argument baseless. either merit lds or baseless in the email. also at one point he compared this to the suspension of habeas corpus during the civil war. there's a time when the suspended law, went against the constitution, because of a national crisis. eastman made that analogy. yeah, it's against the law but a time of national crisis akin to the civil war. right? lawyers can't do that. they have to follow the law. they cannot advise clients to break the law or take positions

they know are mmeritless. why he's in front of that court in california battles for his law licence and my be battles for his liberty as charged by jack smith as part of the conspiracy. >> my next question for you. it's been years now since a federal judge said eastman likely committed felonies along with donald trump. there is some structural reasons that i suppose make it logical investigating trump's role could have taken this long, but i have a harder time understanding why eastman's investigation into his role has taken so long. is it what you just articulated? he may be getting examined as a co-conspirator? >> yeah. look, i think there's no question that the department, special counsel's team, is looking at a conspiracy. president leader of the conspiracy, but others helped facilitate this effort to obstruct the joint session. john eastman is in that inner circle and bogus theories he

knew was baseless was part and parcel of the overall scheme. that makes him arguably a co-conspirator. so my guess is the special counsel is evaluating a number of individuals trying to determine, a., is there conspiracy and, b. if so how broad does that conspiracy reach? how many people whose conduct rose to the level of responsibility of intentional conduct might get them implicated in the conspiracy indictment? >> charlie sykes, bring you in to this. john eastman did not go quietly into the night after the coup. john eastman continued for many months to peddle his conspiracies about the results of the 2020 election. they are conspiracies he repeats to this day. this is defense in his disbar ment proceeding in california. he remain assess threat to the institutions that the 2020 elections sit at a fulcrum of

extremist based on the department of homeland security. what do you make of the slow effort to hold him accountable and disbar him? >> you know i'm frustrated at the slow pace, coming up on 30 months since january 3rd. but in this particular case i think we'll find out whether the concept, legal ethics is on oxymoron. timothy laid it out clearly. some things lawyers could do and some things that clearly are misconduct. even playing a clip of john eastman ranting at the january 6th rally before the attack on the capitol. that is not someone making a coherent or credible legal argument. that is somebody who is not acting as an officer of the court. and the fact that he knew that his legal theory was bogus that he knew he was asking and urging political figures to break the law puts him you know in a unique situation. and it had taken way too long to

hold him accountable. it's taken way too long to bring these conspiracy charges, because as timothy laid out if there was a conspiracy, john eastman is right at the heart of it, and one hopes that the california bar is able to draw a red line and say, this guy was not acting in good faith. this guy was not serving either the lauer or his clients by giving them these bogus theories and then trying to urge action. you point out he continues to do it. came here to wisconsin suggesting the legislature still are the ability to decertify the election. which is a completely bogus and unconstitutional thing to do and yet john eastman is using his law licence to go around the country and suggest things like this. >> yes. remarkable performances i'll call them in a legislature in georgia as well and a lot of those people now face criminal exposure in the state prosecution as well as from jack

smith. no one is going anywhere. tim and charlie, stick around. after a quick break, there is brand new reporting in the "new york times" one of the big factors looming over a potential trump trial. talked about it a little bit. we'll go deep on the jury pool. don't go anywhere. n't go anywh. ♪♪ cold water can't clean tough stains? i'd say that myth is busted. turn to cold, with tide. ♪ [typing] you were made to act spontaneously. we were made to help plan accordingly. ♪

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with claire mccaskill on monday here. swirling really over every aspects of a possible trial in classified documents case scheduled as of today, or starting august 14th. from that new reporting "when judge aileen cannon assumed control of the case stemming from former president trump's indictment putting national security secrets at risk she set the stage for the trial to be held with a regional jury pool kpoepzed mostly of counties in his two previous campaigns signaling the trial would take place in the federal courthouse where she normally sits in fort pierce at the northern end of the southern district of florida, a reach than feeds potential jurors to the courthouse is made up of one swing koithts and four others ruby red in political leanings and that trump won by substantial margins in 2016 and 2020. we're back with tim and charlie. i always think when i read stories like this, charlie sykes, jack smith knew this and has confidence in his case and confidence to being able to see

a fair jury. am i missing something? >> no. you hope that he's confident about that. look, you know, donald trump has two strategies here. number one is to, to get a jury that is sympathetic to him. he only needs one juror to get a hung jury. his second strategy, delay this as long as possible hoping that perhaps he gets back in the white house and makes all of this go away. so it's going to be incumbent on jack smith to make such a compelling case that even juries from these ruby red counties, by the way, ruby red middle easterns they voted nearly 70% for donald trump. this is an overwhelmingly pro-trump area. they make such a compelling case that even these jurors looking at the evidence are going to go, we may have voted for the guy, but this is too much. this is one of those cases where the black law, the black letter law is very, very clear. sounds like there's a mountain

of evidence. even conservative jurors if they listen to the audiotapes, see the transcript, ought to be persuaded but we don't know. this, of course, is the wonder of the american jury system. >> and close as we can get to thinking things like this through in a way that jack smith might think these things through. what would his strategy be for dealing with what the "new york times" reports today? >> yeah. i agree with charlie. no doubt that the special counsel team was aware by bringing this case in the southern district of florida there was a chance that the jury pool from which the jurors are drawn, you know, generally more conservative. i don't think is matters to him. if anything, it helps enhance legitimacy of a possible conviction. special counsel, by adding a lot of detailed language to the indictment issues, is clearly mindful that he wants this case to be seen as legitimate and the

more facts he provides and if this case is ultimately tried before a jury in counties that are red it will give the ultimate jury findings more credibility. he's obviously very confident in strength of the evidence. also his team, has an opportunity to voir dire jurors. things my bear upon their fairness, possible biases, in either direction, stricken for cause. and end up with 12 from this northern part of the southern district of florida who have all pledged to be fair holding a full house's what he thinks he's holding based on the indictment, he doesn't care where that court is. he wants to try his case in the company of america. >> there seems to be a lag almost in our understanding of

the decision to bring the charges in florida. it seems that he may have made a, sort of an adjustment or may have had this in mind the whole time. that is, i guess, okay to most of us, but to your point, equally dismissive of the rule of law to think facts can't be presented to a jury frankly in any county of america. speak from the justice department's view. they bring criminal cases against all sorts of people in every corner of the country. i think this is is a conversation maybe only happening in really political corners of it. >> totally agree. i've tried cases in big cities. tried cases in rural places. jurors, in my experience, follow the directions, pay close attention the evidence and generally do the right thing. not all the time, and certainly there be people that have biases that lawyers try to weed out, but the justice department, i credit their decision to bring this case in the area where most of the conduct occurred regardless of the political

composition of the jury pool. political composition of anything shouldn't impact their targeting decisions, venue decisions and i don't think it hits here. again i think the elector is holding a very strong hand and going to play the hand wherever the table happens to preside. >> yeah. so, charlie, this is where i think trump is going to put all of his eggs. right? thinking these are my people. my jurors. >> right. >> my jurors. the same way he used to talk about my -- he may try to take possession of them and i guess that's an unknown aspect how they will react to that, but i think at a time when some of the ploeft prominent critics of him are also in the republican party, the party association may not be the best indicator of what's going to happen in a trial that hasn't even begun yet? >> really good point. we don't know. let's be honest about this. we don't know what the jury pool will look like or how they're going to evaluate, what happens

when in that room end of the trial and faced with the monumental responsibility of finding the former president guilty or innocent. but this is why it is important to have voices on the right that might break through the information bubble that reiterates the fact this is serious. this is credible. and that, that these charges need to be taken seriously. again, i agree with tim. the justice department should not be making political decisions. should not pick venues based on vote totals, and if they do get a conviction, this does enhance the credibility of all of this. but donald trump is aggressively pursuing a campaign in the court of public opinion. i think we need to understand that. that his television appearances earlier this week were disastrous from the point of view of his status in court. donald trump is going around court, going directly to the public. so this is very much part of his

strategy. to get to that jury pool and to get to, to his supporters and to his base. whether it will work we don't know. it is extremely important, i think, that jack smith put together such a compelling case. i agree with tim there. that this is really a sign of confidence by the special counsel he's willing to bring this case in an area where the jury pool might not be that sympathetic. >> charlie, my brain flashed to a futuristic -- should trump end up in prison. highway did it happen? tried to go around the legal system. hitting my base. a ludicrous legal strategy. right? that he's, i'm not worried about -- you've been charged with felonies and -- you're right. he's going around the legal process talking to, who knows. potentially jurors. >> no lawyer would recommend that strategy. >> you're right, but, look. if it ends up way lung jury trump will feel like he had the right idea. tim joining us by phone because

he is on the move. so grateful to you for taking our call and joining us today. >> thanks. >> thank you very much. when we come back, an update on two georgia election workers who became victims of trump's election lies. ruby freeman and shane laus. that's next. don't go anywhere. money stresses me out. so, i got this experian app, and now, i'm checking my fico® score. i got a new credit card, and i'm even finding ways to save. finally getting smart about money feels really good. see all you can do with the free experian app. download it now.

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surreptitiously passing around u.s. portsz as though they are vials of meth or cocaine. involved in surreptitious activity, again that day. >> kind of makes want to open up all of this criminal cases. right? a stupid comment from rudy giuliani was really about shaye moss was sending her mom a ginger mint. files of cocaine? for now, justice achieved with the former georgia election workers. "georgia state election board dismissed its years' long investigation into alleged election fraud in atlanta more than two years after conspiracy here to ifs and then president donald trump claimed that ruby freeman and her daughter had committed election fraud in the 2020 presidential election. fraud claims were

unsubstantiated no merit the investigation concluded. they suffered as supporters of the ex-president, harassed them and threatened their lives and they weren't the only ones. take a listen to what several election work others faced because of donald trump's lies. >> there is nowhere i feel safe. nowhere. >> after the election, i -- emailed my cell phone docked texts across the country and eventually my wife started getting a text and hers typically came in as sexualized attacks which were disgusting. >> we have various groups come by and -- they have had -- video panel trucks with videos of me proclaiming of me to be a pedophile, pervert and corrupt politician. and -- blaring loud speakers in my neighborhood. >> a lot of threats.

wishing death upon me. telling me that i'll be in jail with my mother, and saying things like, be glad it's 2020 and not 1920. >> we started to hear the noises outside my home, and my stomach sunk and i thought, it's me. are they coming with guns? are they going to attack my house? i'm in here with my kid. >> all of those people attacked because the lies donald trump and his allies told about them. joining our coverage, "new york times" domestic correspondent, and charlie sykes as well. nick, you do a good job not letting this body of reporting around the policy and political fallout from the big lie ever recede from your journalism, but a lot of people moved on especially after the public

hearings for january 6th select committee. for these people who were called pedophiles in their neighborhoods, who feared armed people outside their homes while their children were sleeping, the ptsd is real. disruption to their lives is real and representation is real, especially for those that support donald trump. >> what we're seeing, there's actually a very real world plamp kags in terms of the security of our elections which is, you know, at least a banner at which a lot of the conservatives and activists are seeking to challenge these activists are seeking to challenge these election officials. across the country election officials are resigning. in north carolina, for example, the top election director in 49 counties, and there's 100 counties in north carolina, has resigned or retired since the 2020 election n. oregon, it's refly one in three of the top county election directors have stepped down. in minnesota, it's almost one in

four. the minnesota secretary of state said since the 2020 election, this is the single greatest departure either through retirement or resignation of county election officials they've ever seen. so with those retirements you're seeing years, decades, hundreds of years of experience of how to run elections securely, safely, just walk out the door. this continued harassment, these threats that are coming against election officials and are continuing -- a recent poll from the brennan center in april said 30% of local election officials have been personally abused and attacked by activists. that's continuing. it's really putting a strain on our overall electoral apparatus in a way that could actually challenge the security and safeguarding of our country's elections. >> nick, you just got to the reason this matters and should be front and center for people like myself. as a political issue, it was a

loser, right? in the midterms the election denialism didn't deliver republicans wins. the real goal wasn't just to win elections. it was to run out of the system experienced election workers. talk about how that weakens our elections ahead of '24. >> well, what it does is it takes experienced election officials out of the system. and there's been a ton of changes to election laws, people signing up to be poll watchers, to be poll observers. and not having people really experienced with the nuances of election, how they're run, what rules dictate how in-person voting happens, how absentee voting happens can cause confusion and chaos and lead to significant problems. if you look at what happened in texas in the midterms, for example, they changed their election laws specifically around absentee ballots and new

requirements to be able to vote by mail. what happened there was we saw a massive surge in voters' ballots getting rejected. those voters weren't able to fix their ballots in time. their votes in the primary didn't count. if you were to remove experienced election officials, even more ballots can be thrown out. without an experienced election official running elections, we could really run into some issues. >> thank you so much for joining us. charlie sykes, thank you for being along for the whole hour. we're grateful to you. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. k break fors we'll be right back. you know with priceline you could actually take that trip for less than all this. i made a horrible mistake. ♪ go to your happy price ♪ ♪ priceline ♪ (vo) it's red hot deal days from verizon! where you can get the incredible ♪ go to your happy price ♪ iphone 14 pro max on us with myplan. so you get exactly what you want and only pay for what you need. act now and get iphone 14 pro max on us when you switch.

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we are so graft. "the beat with ari melber" starts right now. hi, ari, good to see you. >> good to see you, nicolle. i like the -- is it yellow? >> i think highlighter yellow. >> fitting because we've all been highlighting. >> like crazy, right? >> good to see you,