thanks for spending time with us on "the beat" with ari melber. "the reidout" with joy reid starts now. tonight on "the reidout" -- the house will be in order. [ chanting shame ] >> kevin mccarthy heckled on the house floor after wednesday's latest republican side show.

an absurd vote to censure adam schiff for something. well, now, donald trump is counting on my kevin and his oddball caucus to save him, because he has no legitimate defense in his criminal case for taking national security documents home and not giving them back. also tonight, no labels. the group that claims america needs a third party choice if biden and trump are the nominees. i'll ask national co-chair about the very real possibility that they could inadvertently put trump back in the white house. plus, breaking news on the missing titanic submersible. the coast guard has now confirmed debris has been found after a, quote, catastrophic implosion. killing all five onboard. but we begin tonight with what is becoming a clearer reality for the twice impeached, twice indicted former president. who up to now has been able to live a charmed life with little accountability. no matter what alleged crimes

he's committed. and now, at 77 years of age, for the first time, donald trump has found himself in a bind that he can't riggle out of. a big part of that is because trump has met his match, can his name is jack smith. it's been seven months since smith was appointed special counsel in the investigation into trump's mishandling of classified documents. and while trump has spent that time trying to win in the court of public opinion, spewing conspiracy theories and insults against the doj, smith has been hard at work preparing a case to win in an actual courtroom base on facts and evidence. trump and his legal team are getting a first look at some of that evident as part of the discovery phase of the case, and it's likely causing some anxiety for the man who is trying to claim they're all out to get me as his legal strategy. the first batch of unclassified evidence shared by smith includes information collected through subpoenas and grand jury testimony from witnesses who will take the stand for the government, according to a court

filing yesterday. what could be even more damning is the part of the filing that says interviews, plural, to describe the recordings of trump made with his consent that the special counsel has obtained and is turning over. we already know of one such bombshell recording made at trump's bedminster golf club, with trump talking about a classified military document with people who were ghost writing the memoir of his former chief of staff, mark meadows. a recording where he admitted he couldn't show the document, which he seemed to be waving around to the writers who didn't have a security clearance, because it was still classified. counter to trump's numerous public claims that he declassified all the documents he took from the white house. and we don't know what the other recordings are, but the tact they're being shared indicates they're at least relevant to the case, and trump is showing signs he's growing more and more fearful of what's to come. the atlantic's tom nichols points to trump's disastrous fox news interview this week as another sign that he is afraid.

pointing to trump's recent interview in which he seemed deeply uneasy in an environment where he sort of felt at home, saying he looked genuinely off balance and was showcasing the trademark tells including nervous and distracting sniffaling and verbal hiccups such as, are you ready? let's signal when he's tense and flustered. you don't have to take it from me or tom nichols. look at trump's page from husband twitter knockoff where he spent this morning lashing out at the investigation, including in his signature all caps style. it does look like real accountability could be at hand for trump, and frankly, he has every reason to be afraid. joining me is msnbc legal analyst andrew weissmann, forer fbi general counsel. i want to read to you from the discovery court filing which is the thing that has folks intrigued. the government will reveal any

payments, other inducements made to perspective government witnesses within the scope of the trials. can you explain what that means in regular people terms? >> i'll try. i'm a lawyer and a law professor so i'll give it my best shot. so, under the constitution, the government has to disclose evidence about its witnesses that could impeach them. so for instance, let's take michael cohen. if he's called as a witness in the manhattan district attorney's case, he's not going to be called in the mar-a-lago case, but in the manhattan district attorney's case, the constitution requires that the government turn over to the defense all of his prior bad acts, everything that could be used to impeach him. most notably, the fact that he has admitted he committed perjury for donald trump, but nevertheless, he committed perjury. so what that letter is saying is, we're going to turn over

everything that could be used to undermine the credibility of our witnesses. and that's part of what due process requires of the government and every defendant, whether it's donald trump or somebody who is much less notable without those resources is entitled to get from the government. >> and let's just say donald trump because he does have a pretend twitter, and he does use it quite extensively, were to, what does he call it, truth out something that he learned in this discovery phase. what would be the penalty because he has been told he's not supposed to do it. what if he did it anyway? >> that's a great question. one of the things the government has done, which i think is totally right, is they have turned over this discovery really early. i mean, this is exactly what you want our government to be doing, but it also allows them to say to the judge they want a quick trial because they turned over the discovery so early to the

defense. but that does mean that donald trump has a greater opportunity to try to tamper with witnesses, which is what your question goes to. now, both in the manhattan d.a.'s case and in this case, the judges have issued orders saying what he can and cannot do with that evidence. but you know, an order is a piece of paper, and the defendant here, defendant trump, is already being accused of violating various laws including a grand jury subpoena, so that order remains to be seen whether it is going to work. having said that, if he now tries to tamper with witnesses, that is such a serious offense. you might remember paul manafort, who i prosecuted in connection with the mueller investigation did that. he tampered with two witnesses while out on bail. you know what happened? he went to jail.

that was somebody who was out on bail, and if you tamper with witnesses, if you commit that serious a crime while you're out on bail, that's an obvious consequence. so donald trump would obviously have to be caught doing this, but it can happen. and the consequence is he'll be running for the republican nomination from inside of a jail cell. >> think of tampering with witnesses. he has a co-defendant, watine nauta, let's say he learned in the discovery what walt nauta has said in the course of the investigation, and then he -- it would be hard to prevent him from tampering with him, right? he practically lives at mar-a-lago. is there a way that he could be sanctioned for that, and then part two of my question is, do you think that jack smith is still trying to work walt nauta to get him to flip at this stage? >> so i think walt nauta would

be the hardest person to be able to detect whether there is sort of continuing tampering with him. the judge did say that they can only speak about things unrelated to the case. but i mean, good luck monitoring that. >> right. >> so that's a tough one. but i do think at this point, whatever collusion, favorite word of donald trump, there is between donald trump and nauta has happened. whatever cooked up story is sort of baked in and presumably why he's now being charged for making false statements and obstructing. i do think would be hard to catch that. of course, the issue of walt nauta flipping, obviously, the government tried to have that and tried to do that, walt nauta, as is his right, decided not to and to face the music. that's also his constitutional right. you know, at this point, it's

really clear that the government doesn't need him. so his window of opportunity to come in may be over. >> may be closed. >> exactly, and at this point, he decided, we used to say which side of the v he wants to be on, and the united states versus the defendant, he was given an opportunity to be on the united states side. he has decided as is his right to be on the other side. you never know if it's ultimately too late, but i can assure you, knowing jack smith, if he comes in, he's going to have to plead guilty to what he did. >> and when you hear recordings, should we presume that recordings means the public statements donald trump has made on television or is this juicier stuff like could it be like the recordings that came out of bedminster? >> i'm assuming it's the former, that it's things like the bret baier interview/confession that we heard the other day. and the reason for that is although it could be things like the bedminster tape that you referred to, joy, i think that

if there was something that explosive, of equal evidentiary value, it would have been put into the indictment and we would have known about it. that doesn't mean the tapes aren't going to be incredibly useful. it could be donald trump making the whole series of what are known as false exculpatory statements, and we have been privy to that. we have watched him have a sort of defense du jour, and the government needs to decide, are they going to play that for the jury so they can see his story keeps on changing? that's usually a sign that the person is not innocent if they have to keep on having different explanations for what they did. >> the one question i do want to ask, because my great producer that produced the segment did the math. it would be about 400 years total, and we don't think he's going to get it, obviously, he's somebody with no prior convictions, blah blah blah, but all of those counts are pretty serious. is there still a possibility to play the game that rachel maddow played which i think is smart for us to think about. could donald trump at this

stage, as he was advited to by one of his lawyers to try to do, cut some sort of blanket deal that would involve nonprosecutor in some of these state cases like georgia, nonprosecution on january 6th, some kind of deal with manhattan, and wrap it all together with a guilty plea and maybe let's say a promise not to run for president. is that something you think is plausible? >> you know, for somebody who is not donald trump, i think that is plausible. if i were representing somebody who was rational, i would sit there and say, look at what david petraeus did. david petraeus was caught red handed doing something similar, but not as egregious. he pled and he got no jail time and a deal was worked out. so you could end up with somebody trying to say look, let's try and wrap all of this up in manhattan, georgia, the federal cases, and see what kind -- what is the best deal we could get.

there is reporting that one of his attorneys did try that and donald trump said i'm not interested. and that's because donald trump is really running on two different levels. one is sort of his real game here is to have a political solution where either he or another republican wins and he gets pardoned because one of the reasons that as you noted he seemed so scared in the bret baier interview is in a forum where facts and law matter, you know, he has nothing -- he can't really make any arguments there because it seems very clear that he's guilty. and he is showing that in his demeanor. so he's really running on a very different forum, which is the political one, where facts and law may not matter to significant part of the electorate. >> yeah, and i will note for the audience, there's a kansas fbi agent who kept classified documents also in her bathroom, and guess what she got?

straight to jail, straight to jail. if you do it, straight to jail. andrew weissmann, thank you very much. and up next on "the reidout," as his panic builds, trump turns to his allies in congress for help, but so far it's looking like the best they can come up with is impeach biden for something. "the reidout" continues after this. ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪

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donald trump ran for president in 2016 on the mantra

of i alone can fix it. throughout his life, he really hasn't fixed any of his problems on his own. he's always had someone else do it for him. people like his father who bailed him out financially or roy kaine, or allen weisselberg, michael cohen, trump relied on all of them to make his problems go away, poof. for their trouble, they each wound up disgraced or disbarred or in prison as trump remained unscathed. now the twice impeached, twice indicted former president is in a unique situation where the walls of justice are closed in and he has no one, no big strong savior to help him wiggle his way out of there. it's apparent from trump's caterwauling tantrums on his wanna be twitter this morning that he's getting desperate for someone, anyone to help. he is so desperate that he's now begging his cull members in congress to please, please step in. however, they have some problems of their own to deal with,

mainly the fact that their caucus is, to put it lightly, a total clown show. today, for example, the house narrowly avoided a vote to impeach president biden over, wait for it, his handling of the u.s./mexico border. that motion introduced by lauren boebert was instead sent to committee, postponing it indefinitely to save speaker kevin mccarthy from embarrassment. marjorie taylor greene is admitting to calling boebert a b-word on the floor because she wanted to be the one to impeach biden. the present circus comes as republicans yesterday voted to censure congressman adam schiff for, let's see, checking my notes here, his role in trump's first impeachment. for trying to blackmail ukraine, which he did. that move ended in this dramatic moment on the house floor.

>> the house will be in order. [ chanting shame ] >> and then you have congressman jim jordan and james comer, who have turned the house judiciary and oversight committees into trump's personal defense team, focusing all of their energy on finding something, anything, for god's sakes, that they can label president biden and his son for wrongdoing, which has yielded a hot bowl of nothing. this is what the house of representatives has become, az hakim jefferies and nancy pelosi summed up yesterday. >> this is a do-nothing republican controlled congress. that is why this censure resolution is on the floor today. extreme maga republicans have no vision, have no plan, have no agenda to make life better for everyday americans. >> the other side has turned this chamber where slavery was abolished, where medicare and

social security and everything were instituted, they have turned it into a puppet show. a puppet show, and you know what, the puppeteer, donald trump, is shining a light on the strings. you look miserable. you look miserable. >> joining me now is david jolly, msnbc political analyst and former republican congressman who is no longer affiliated with the party. jamelle bouie, "new york times" columnist and cohost of the unclear and present danger podcast. welcome to the show. i want to quickly start with david, because they look miserable, but i mean, robert, one of my producers, his statement in our meeting earlier was, what's their counterargument to that, no, we don't look miserable, we look fine. this is fine. this is donald trump's caucus that's going to save him? can you think of any of them that can pull it off? >> joy, i would suggest their misery is rooted in their own ignorance and their own deliberate malfeasance.

nancy pelosi is right. this is a chamber who throughout history has warred with war and peace and social security, the civil rights act, major landmark moments in american history, and now they're trying to impeach joe biden on a dime and censure adam schiff. i think it speaks to the fact that kevin mccarthy himself is one of the weakest speakers we have seen in modern history. look, republicans at this point keep doing it, because the verdict of the american people will come in november of 2024, and democrats and joe biden, you have a party and a leader who are trying to solve the problems of the american people. and in the republicans, you have a party trying to usher in a grievance agenda based on whatever is pleasing to donald trump. >> you know, jemele, you have republican female house members scratching each other's eyes out over who gets to impeach biden, over the border when border crossings are down 70% under joe biden. i don't even know how they would structure that kind of a thing. but i mean, this is what trump

wants. and it isn't helping him in a legal sense, but what do you think -- what does it accomplish, because they're not actually finding any evidence against joe biden? >> i think the idea is that they're going to create a lot of muck, create a lot of the appearance of scandal, maybe create a lot of smoke in the hope that the public associates that smoke with an actual fire, that the appearance of scandal, the appearance of wrongdoing convinces the public that actual wrongdoing is happening. the problem is that the republican majority can't really get out of its own way. but the republican majority is so dysfunctional, is so disinterested in legislating and pursuing any kind of agenda, but the attempt to create smoke just doesn't really work out. it peters out because people look at the majority and they say, well, these kind of look just like a bunch of clowns doing clown stuff and not like a

mature governing body actually dealing with the problems the nation faces. >> you know, let me just give an example. here's -- this is congressman comer in his investigation. here he is trying to explain it to a friendly voice, sean hannity. >> this oligarch was a high ranking member or owner of burisma? >> yes. that is exactly right. >> have you had contact with him? >> unfortunately, nobody has had any contact with him for the last three years. the msnbc makes fun of me when i said that there are a lot of people that were involved in the biden shenanigans that are currently missing. >> yes, yes, congressman comer, msnbc does make fun of you. i am making fun of you. i mean, they have people they say are witnesses who they haven't talked to and can't find for three years. they have supposed investigations by this durham

character that are going to nail the bidens, and than they come up with nothing and then they're yelling at each other. i wonder, you're a former congressman, david. at some point, why don't their voters actually want them to do anything? because obviously, they're getting re-elected and they're not doing anything. >> yeah, joy. i think this is one of those moments where it's hard to put yourselves in the shoes of a republican. republicans today truly believe, they believe with conviction that joe biden is part of a crime family and his son has been involved in it, and you have young members of congress, the one that introduced the censure against adam schiff, that had been elevated to office believing that. what you see from comer and others is allegations without any evidence. look, i think democrats are of course being careful around issues related to joe biden's son hunter, but i think this is a moment where you embrace and declare the exoneration that happened this week and the plea deal between the department of justice and hunter biden, which is hunter biden in his personal capacity has faced a settlement

now on tax charges and lying on a gun application. consider what the allegations have been over the past five years. you just heard them from comer. business dealings with oligarchs. all of the dirty money that has changed hands and ultimately bribery allegations against the president himself, in five years, republicans haven't been able to prove it. and two trump appointed u.s. attorneys, a trump appointed a.g., and a trump appointed judge are about to sign off on a deal that says none of that actually is true and provides no liability for hunter biden or joe biden. republicans are being fools not to just take the loss and go home and move on and address the priorities of the american people. >> i have a sort of theory, that you know, obama really did break the brains of many republicans. and they can't accept that their obama, donald trump, was a failure. and that his administration was a failure, and he didn't actually do anything for them and didn't do anything other than crime. and so there is a magical thinking involved saying there must be some scandal in the

biden family. they must be equivalent to jared and ivanka. if jared and ivanka were taking and getting $2 billion and doing corruption, there must be some equivalent on the other side because there's a lack of ability to accept your side might kind of suck, and maybe you should just get different people, but they just want to find the evil on the other side that they refuse to see on their own. >> i think that's probably right in some respect, that there's this magical thinking happening on the republican side, but i would also say that the republican party entirely in the congressional level, at the presidential level, the candidates, has formed itself around the person of donald trump and taken on much of his pathology, much of his obsessions, much of his unusual qualities. and i think that had the republican party prior to trump had some sort of policy and real

idealogical core, they might have been able to resist that. what we forget is in the years prior to trump, there was this real soul searching within the republican party, what was going to come next, having been defeated twice in a row by obama. and that soul searching didn't really end up producing anything. what happened instead was that trump was able to kind of fill the vacuum. i think what we're seeing now is how having now filled that vacuum, there's nothing really else. it's just trump. it's just various lawmakers emulating trump, presidential candidates emulating trump. that's all there is now. >> that is so well put, because you're right. i talked earlier, interviewed long time ago a trump supporter who said it was his sleblt. it made them feel like they had a reagan. it felt like something big and great and interesting and pop culture winning. so that's why they liked it. you're right, there's no substance. and they can't save him. thank you both very much. still ahead, it loss of the titan submersible raises serious questions about the lack of

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. the five passengers on oceangate's missing titanic submersible are now believed to be dead after a, quote, catastrophic implosion. that's according to the u.s. coast guard who also said a debris field was discovered within the search area. oceangate released a statement today saying they, too, believe

that all passengers died after the vessel went missing over the weekend. the tourist sub had attempted to dive down to the wreckage of the tay tannic more than two miles under water. the critical rescue mission has put a spotlight on extreme underwater tourism. the type boosted by stockton rush, oceangate's ceo and the pilot of the missing sub. he's also central to an eerie cession to the actual titanic. his wife, wendy rush, is a descendant of two first class passengers who died when the titanic sank in 1912. those passengers among the most wealthy on the oceanliner, were retailing magnate izadore strauss and his wife ida. according to titanic survivors, mr. strauss refused a seat on a lifeboat when women and children were waiting to board. mrs. strauss refused to abandon her husband, so the couple was seen standing arm in arm on the deck as the ship went down. their tragic story was immortalized in the 1997 film

"titanic" which featured a shot of a older couple embracing in bed as water rushed into their room. joining me from boston is nbc news correspondent tom costello. tom, the story has riveted, it seems like the entire world. it is an ending that is not unexpected. certainly tragic. what do we know about how the wreckage was actually discovered and found? >> reporter: so we are at coast guard command here in boston and the coast guard says that this morning they had a canadian ship come in and drop an rov, remotely operated vehicle, down into the water. this is the best, deepest rov yet they put into the water, and very quickly, they started surveying the area around the known wreckage site for the titanic and it didn't take long. they very quickly started seeing the remains of the sub on the surface of the ocean. and it did not interfere with the titanic wreck site, the graveyard at sea.

it really was about 1600 feet away. as we really asked the coast guard for more information, they said no, it does not appear that the sub crashed into the titanic. instead, it imploded in the water column above the titanic or close to it, and then all of that debris rained down. and now we have learned from the navy that in fact on sunday, the navy detected what sounded or was similar to the sounds of an implosion or an explosion on the water about the time that that sub lost communication with the mother ship. as you know, joy, the navy has microphones and sensors all across the north atlantic. really to listen for russian sub activity. it does appear they may have picked up the implosion of the sub. >> very tragic for all involved. nbc's tom costello, thank you very much. coming up, everything that you need to know about the supposedly centrist political group, no labels, and how they're backing of a third party

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biden leads. wisconsin, too early to call. >> check those nine states out in gray, still at this hour, undecided. the presidential race hanging in the balance. >> sorry to the flashbacks, that of course was tuesday, november 3rd, 2020. it was not until four days later that joe biden and kamala harris had clinched the majority of electoral votes and the white house. until that moment, america was on edge and unclear who would become president. it was eerily reminiscent of 2016 when america did not learn that donald trump would be president of the united states until the following morning. unlike 2016, though, there were no viable third party candidates on the ballot in 2020. the biden/harris ticket picked up arizona, pennsylvania, and wisconsin by razor thin majorities. 2024 is shaping up to be another long slog with about a dozen republican candidates already in the race. rfk jr. running as a vaccine

denying democrat, and cornel west, with the help of jill stein, remember her? running at the green party candidate. to that political star wars bar walks no labels, a self-described centrist organization founded in 2010 to fight rising political polarization. they are now looking to mount a third-party presidential bid in 2024. claiming that polls show that the public is ready for a middle of the road political alternative to the two major parties. and they're bolstering this quest by trying to raise at least $70 million with the goal of hosting a convention in dallas next april. no labels and their robust third party push comes from some folks you have definitely heard of before. and some who have had their own experience with defeat being snatched from the jaws of victory. there's nancy jacobson, cofounder and ceo, who happens to be one of washington's most successful fund-raisers. former senator joe lieberman,

the 2000 democratic vp nominee who endorsed the presidential bid of his republican buddy, john mccain, in 2008, criticizing his own party's nominee, barack obama. plus, two former republican governors, maryland's larry hogan and north carolina's pat mccrory, known mainly for signing the to law an anti-lgbtq bathroom bill, and several rights activist dr. ben chavs and john hope bryant. who is financially backing this push? it's not entirely clear. they're currently a registered nonprofit so they're not required to explain where their funding comes from. they have been openingly flirting with recruiting moderate democratic senator joe manchin who happens to be a co-chair. he has not said whether he'll run for president as a centrist. democrats are not thrilled, you might imagine, about this prospect, because data shows the introduction of a no labels candidate siphons votes away from biden and could lead to a trump victory.

which could literally usher in the demise of american democracy, with an administration ready to end abortion access nationally, prosecute political enemies, round up homeless people and execute drug dealers. a prospect that rightfully scared people. they have told reporters they would exit the race if donald trump does not win the republican nomination or if joe biden is way ahead in the polls. third party candidates have had a rough go of it in this country. teddy roosevelt tried to return to the white house as a progressive and failed. and no third party candidate has won a single electorate vote since 1968. for the record, i am not against having more choices. i think it is a valid argument that our political system could use it. but when there is so much at stake in this really tight political climate, is this really the right time to try something like this, just to make a point? after the break, i'll ask no labels national cochair and civil rights leader dr. benjamin chavis, that very question.

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chavis junior was one of the principal organizers of the million man march in 1995. an event meant to bring attention to the violence within -- to violence within the black community and come up with solutions. he was also the executive director and ceo of the naacp and is now a national co-chair of no labels. doctor chavis joins me now. thank you so much for being

here. >> thank you, so good to see you again. >> it is wonderful to see you again as well. it was interesting seeing, we watched video from you back in the million man march days and you were -- i'm curious about your connection to this organization, no labels. i want to read to you from you guys is, this is your piece y'all put, out and explains what you are doing. on page two, it says the following. it says we, no labels, created the first of its kind house problem solvers caucus. an allied senate group that is the force behind historic bipartisan achievements, like the 2021 infrastructure bill. joe biden, the sitting president of the united states, is running for reelection largely on that bill and on his other bipartisan achievements, many of which are accredited to the problem solvers caucus and that census group. if you have a president that's already doing bipartisan work and running for reelection on it, why run a third party

candidate that could cost him the election? >> we want to continue to do nonpartisan work, because bipartisan work is the -- the two extremes, the far far, left the far far right does not provide solutions to america's problems. >> at the moment, joe biden, sorry to interrupt you, joe biden is operating from the very middle that you tout in this -- in your literature. >> we want to continue to work. >> why not just support joe biden? >> first of all, let me clear something up. no labels is not a pro trump party. >> i didn't say you were. >> no labels is not an anti biden group. what we are four is all polls show, including nbc shows that most americans did not want to see a repeat of the 2020 election. what no labels is doing at the grassroots level, we are trying to give ballot access in all states, including the district of columbia, in case, by next year, the candidates the

republicans put forward looks like the candidate the democrats are putting forward would be president biden, we will make a decision. right now, no labels doesn't have a candidate. we are not running in a battle for office. now what we are trying to do is get in place in case we need to next year. >> let's just clear up, but it up this piece here. you said in your piece that dominant leaders in -- vicious cycle again. who are these leaders? you talked about leaders on the left and the right. we know leaders on the right, we report on it every night. >> far right, far left. >> who are these leaders on the far left who are you are saying are creating polarization? again, joe biden's party is already operating as a majority centrist party. >> those who call for defunding the police. >> when has anyone put forward a bill to defund the police? that is not accurate. >> i'm not saying it has to be a bill. it could be the rhetoric, a lot of rhetoric on the far-right as well as the far-left that doesn't serve the interests of the american people.

>> here is the difference. on the republican side, the far-right rhetoric is actually dominating their policies. they are attempting to implement. one of the things no label has said is if it's not donald, trump that some of the candidates who might be acceptable, include rhonda scientists. >> we have not said that. no. where is the quote? no labels has not -- i'm representing the labels. i can tell, you we have not endorsed any candidate. republican or democrat. as far as no labels supporting desantis, that's incorrect. this didn't happen. >> let me ask you for on desantis would fall under the same extremist label that you are kind of characterizing donald trump, donald trump would be characterized as someone who would consider extreme. the naacp, which he used to, lead has issued a travel advisory on rhonda says this is state, florida, because of the attack on lgbtq people, black history, he has run a campaign that is descended lee anti black --

do you restrictions apply to him? >> no labels would never support a candidate that bans books, bans books and prevents people from knowing true history. we are an anti discrimination in all its forms. also against voter suppression in all its forms. >> then he wouldn't be a candidate, you would get in if he was the nominee? >> i'm thinking now. what you mean by against voter suppression. voter suppression is also not blocking access, equal access to the ballot, which we have run into in several states, arizona and maine, party officials on the democratic side have tried to block no labels from getting equal access to the ballot. that's voter suppression. >> one of the things no liberal has said or at least representatives of no labels has said is that if joe biden is ahead by a wide margin that no labels would -- >> that's my quote. >> if it was never, no labels

would get in. that seems to be -- >> that was not michael. i'm very clear. what no labels has said in the past, what we will say in the future, we will not make a decision on any candidate to add to -- before the april convention in dallas. if we don't see a clear path, that's no labels, for a unity ticket, a democrat and republican, the republican to win, we stand down. we stand down. >> let me ask you this, if the margin is, why there is no risk that a third party candidate to throw the race, in theory, to someone like a donald trump. >> if the margin is close, we will still stand down if we don't see a pathway to win the electoral college. >> to be clear again, if the margin is narrow and let's say it's rhonda santas versus joe biden, no labels would stand down to prevent causing the race to tip to a desantis? is that what you are saying?

>> yes. no labels would stand down because we don't see a pathway to the majority. >> do you have a concern? we have seen -- one moment. we have seen what jill stein's presidency in the race did. >> she is a pro-choice -- protest candidate. >> let me ask you about joe manchin. joe manchin has not said either way if he wants the run. joe manchin is somebody who fits into the no labels model, right? joe manchin has voted with joe biden 87.9% of the time. i don't know if you want to guess how many -- what percentage bernie sanders has voted with joe biden. it's 90.9%. they're voting record -- >> i'm asking, do we support joe manchin? is that the question? >> would joe manchin be someone you want to support as a nominee? >> right, now no labels is not declaring support for any candidate. >> would he be somebody theoretically that would be your nominee? >> that's premature to say. right now, we are not focused

on running to people or one person. what we are focused on is getting ballot access. that's what we see the american people want to go through these primary, to the super tuesday, we have a very clear answer to whether or not there is a pathway to victory. >> let me ask you a specific question about joe manchin. because joe manchin, who would be his constituency? i don't want to ask because he is -- good man, he is somebody who does not differ that much from joe biden on many things. but when he does, defer it is on support for voting, writes he stood in the way of that, it is on support for women, bodily integrity, he stood in the way of a bill to try to codify role. it is on things like climate. he did cut a sweetheart deal. he is an oil magnate and cut a sweetheart oil deal. who is his constituency? who are the centrists that want that as the president of the united states? >> the deal is a bipartisan effort that worked for all americans. >> the oil deal might not have

done so. >> we could not afford to have our country go off the cliff for debt. that debt deal was a bipartisan deal and all americans would benefit. >> i'm not against the debt deal. i'm saying joe manchin -- >> he supported the deal. >> do you believe joe manchin is the kind of candidate that no labels would support for president? is that the model of what kind of candidate? >> i will put that jacket -- he has not announced that he is running. he has not asked a little doubles for our support if he is running. >> who is funding. it we are out of time. can you tell us who is your major funder? >> no labels is a 501(c) (4). we get the same funding as the league of women voters. >> i would if they were sitting here. we are out of time. doctor benjamin chavis, thank you so much. that's tonight's read out. all in with chris hayes starts. read out. all in with chris hayes starts >> tonight on all in. >> our nation's commitment to the rule of law sets an example for the world. >> the