across the border inside russia in a town that you're going to get to know. it's called raw stuff on gun. it's one of the main staging areas for russia's invasion into ukraine. ross of on don's now, apparently, under the claimed control of the precaution. this man in the middle. he's a leader of the brutal wagner mercenary group, which was up until the past couple of days has been fighting on behalf of russia, notably in and around the eastern town of backwards, ukraine. late yesterday, progressions forest process from russia, from ukraine, into russia, claiming control of rust of undone, and also the southern military headquarters of the russian armed forces, which is located within that city. fog ocean says he plans to lead his troops, quote, to moscow. speaking early this morning, vladimir putin had agreed -- precocious claim, saying that

military and civilian functions within the city of ras of on the on have been blocked. putin vowed to take decisive action to put down what he and the kremlin are calling it quote -- undertaken by progression who they are calling a traitor. putin also vowed to not let the rebellion become a civil war -- at the end of world war one. now, here's what we know. multiple reports indicate that there has been some small fighting along the major highway in the area as well as reports of convoys of military equipment being moved along that highway. russia also moved military equipment in and around moscow. that's what you're looking at right now, and other major cities across russia. this all comes after progression, yesterday, heavily escalated his public feud with russia's defense minister, sergei showing you and the head of russia's armed forces, valerie grass above.

both of whom prigozhin publicly hates and blames for rushes failures in ukraine. for the beginning of the invasion, but now he blames them for wagner's heavy losses, as well. in a series of messages that he posted on telegram, prigozhin, again, seen here, accused the kremlin of -- false pretenses, calling it a, quote, rockets that wasn't done to, quote, demilitarize or detoxify ukraine, but instead to enrich sure you and other members of the ruling elite. promotion also vows that his troops would advance -- to punish, quote, evil military leadership. prigozhin al claimed that one of wagner's afield cams was deliberately bombed by russian forces on the personal order of show a goose claims -- on dawn, where he is now. there is a lot to catch up here, it's a complex story, but we're

going to work through this with you over the course of the next couple of hours. joining me now live from kyiv is nbc news court -- kellet kobe asia. kelly, this has been a fast moving, fast developing story with parts that are very, very hard to confirm. a lot of it is playing out on social media. this may come as a surprise to most of us. we know that there is been tension between prigozhin and shoigu and the russian administration. this has escalated way beyond that. >> that's right, i mean, we've seen this building and building and building over the course of several weeks. we've seen repeated attacks, public attacks by prigozhin on the russian military on russian military command. accusing them of all sorts of things, of mismanaging the war, of not giving them enough ammunition, and other supplies in order to effectively execute the war.

prigozhin has claimed that it's his fighters who have been key in securing back mood, the town we've been talking about for weeks and weeks and weeks. really, he wasn't getting the support of the russian military. it has never gotten this far. this was a real surprise. in the fast 12 hours or so prigozhin coming out with this very aggressive statement, basically accusing the russian elites of prosecuting this war for their own benefits. and then, extraordinarily, in the early hours this morning, moving on to russian territory with his fighters. he claims to have about 25,000 fighters who support him, who follow him, and moving in on rostov-on-don. the situation there is a little bit confused, there is no confirmation, necessarily, that they have control of that city. it's a city of about 1 million people. they claim to have control of that military headquarters, russia has been leading the war

effort. it's also a key logistical hub by the way, so if, in fact, that is true, that could be a real problem for russia and its war effort in ukraine. certainly in the long term, if the situation remains this way. we're also now hearing reports about the wagner group moving northeast. just in the past hour or so, the governor of a district that's a couple miles south of moscow, look pets, has come out with a statement -- to stay inside, and said that if wagner fighters are now moving through that area. that's significant, because just a couple of hours earlier, we were hearing unconfirmed reports that wagner mercenaries were in a town farther south about halfway between ross of and moscow. there were reports of fighting there. this is a very quickly moving

situation in russia. the question of course, ali is, does progression have the power, the supports, to carry out what he's proposing to, to make it all the way to moscow? does he have the support of the people? in video posted on wagner affiliated social media just in the past couple of hours, he claimed that they took rostov-on-don without firing a single shot. he said because the people are essentially on their side and that they're on a march for justice. one more thing to really know it's, ali in none of these videos does prigozhin take on president putin. it is only about the defense minister and the army chief of staff at this point. as you mentioned, president putin, in the five minute address has said, this is an armed rebellion, this is treason, and it will be put down ali. >> this is interesting what you just said because i was watching this unfold last night, and i notice that prigozhin

generally doesn't and specifically didn't go after putin. but a coup or an insurrection or a challenge you can really delineate that cleanly in a place. you can't in america decide that you're just going after the converse department. you'rgoing after the defense minister and ministry and the army chief of staff in russia which is a country at war, even though they don't call it a war. putin's and see the nuance in this. he sees this as an armed insurrection. >> absolutely, and the bottom line is this is embarrassing for him. this is an attack on russian soil, essentially by someone who was a very strong ally for years of president putin. he's really only avenue here is to completely destroy progression. on that level, it's hard to see what the endgame is here for wagner group and for promotion. whether he believes he has the

power, maybe some sort of pull within the military. can he, are there cracks within the military establishment that he can take advantage of? these are saying, as these are questions that are being asked now, and really we don't know the answers. we may see how it plays out over the next 24, 48 hours. we may see whether the military is 100 percent completely on the side of the russian state and president putin, or if there are some cracks in the system. essentially, putin is now in the position where he has no choice other than to destroy, essentially, this mercenary group that has been a powerful force on the battlefield in ukraine. >> kelly, it will stay close to this morning, thank you very much, please get back to us with any developments as you hear them, whether they're coming from the ukrainian government or confirmation about what's going on on that russia ukrainian border. we did get word from the ukrainians last night that russians had crossed the check point out of the country.

kelly is with us in kyiv. we have reporters all over the world this morning, we're going to be seeing very, very close to them. in fact, for more on this, i'm joined by nbc's matt wagner. matt has covered russia and the war in ukraine extensively. matt spends a lot of time in moscow, and he has a lot of contacts there. matt, tell me what you're hearing from inside russia, because as kelly said, we don't know what sort of support precocious has inside russia whether it's military support or popular support, or political support, or support within the putin administration or the defense establishment. >> yeah, thank you, ali, it's a very interesting situation, i think i would like to begin by saying yevgeny prigozhin is not the most popular man in the russian elise. we don't really think he has too many friends. but he was was very useful and loyal to president putin for so many years, but he's really become quite useful in this war. the wagner group, obviously,

was quite affective in certain engagements, particularly in talking with ukrainians and there's been this rivalry that's developed between wagner prigozhin's group, and the russian military defense. -- not been as successful in engaging the ukrainian military in certain places. he's not necessarily very wild white in the elites. what is interesting here is that, for a while now, protrusion has given off the sense that he generally feels way, but he's playing this russian ash analysis every man. he's down in the front, he's in the trenches with the guys, he knows the suffering there going through, and he's upset was command back in moscow for lack of equipment. allegations of lack of equipment, poor planning, for operational support, all kinds of problems. he's escalating these concerns higher and higher, and if you take a survey in russian social media, where you talk to russians who are maybe not against the war, there is definitely a sense that there is a current in russian society

that is not happy with the way that the war has been waged. they're not against the war, there against russia losing the war, and they're embarrassed that russia has not successfully won this fight. -- >> matt that's a very, very important -- for viewers who are watching this thinking, half, funnily someone's taking on vladimir putin and maybe this war will and that is nots for goshen's goal,. he is not, he would also, he's been prosecuting the war against ukraine. >> correct, correct. the actual, the concern here, where the argument from prigozhin's camp is that this war is not being waged effectively, a bunch of corrupt generals are losing this war for us and we can't lose this war. it's not in ukraine's favor, necessarily, if prigozhin comes out of this on top, perhaps in command of the war, perhaps in some kind of new power arrangement. we don't know, anything is really possible right now. this is not necessarily great

news for ukraine. -- this is a distraction from the fighting ongoing right now on the front. russia is of course -- if not shift resources russian leadership will have to shift its focus from the front to right at home now, possibly right outside of moscow. other things we're seeing on russian social media of course will still trying to verify a lot of this information, it's very fluid and chaotic environments. nobody really has a great sense of what's going on in russia. some people in moscow haven't seen anything, on the other hand, we're seeing videos from outside of moscow. a lot is in the air, and we mites -- the russian leadership is, of course, trying to figure out how to respond to this. , tryingthat is an opportunity e ukrainians, but a lot of confusion and russia, i think a lot of anxiety, we must be a lot of anxiety amongst the russian elite right now. putin's entire power, for the past 24 years, has been predicated on this idea that he is the one that can manage the various competing interests that make up the russian

elites. it's not really a cohesive unit he's just the arbiter. you'll hear him refer to as the godfather in that sense sometimes, kind of choose your analogy to describe it. if you remember of this elite, you have to be wondering right now, if putin is maybe still up to the task. he allowed this fight between the defense ministers sergei shoigu and start yevgeny prigozhin to escalate into what is one of the most serious event in russian politics in the past 20 or years. yet something hard to find something of this scale just in my mind, going back. i think the last thing i can think of at this scale was the constitutional crisis of 1993, when then president boris yields in, in a standoff with a communist controlled parliament, order troops loyal to him to open fire on the house of the russian government, and ultimately dissolved parliament. we've heard a lot of comparisons even to 1917 today, including for putin himself. that's the message. clear signs of anxiety, not really clear, specifically,

what's going on in a mechanical sense on the ground. a lot of activity, for sure. >> thanks very much, stay close, as well, because the story is developing fast and we will need your analysis and your reporting. if you hear anything from the people you're in touch with constantly inside of russia about developments there, please let us know. matt wagner is in london for us, kelly kobe is in kyiv for us. i want to bring in evelyn far kiss, the executive -- kane institute. she's a former senior adviser from the -- european, former deputy assistant secretary of defense here in the united states. very familiar with eastern and central europe, and the former soviet union. evelyn, good to see you. we do not have confirmation of any of this from the u.s. government. they're observing it's, but the expression off the record from the u.s. security establishment is one of grief concern. because, while russia is a remarkable adversary and russia

has nuclear weapons, there is some sense that we understand the motivations and possible behavior of vladimir putin. what prigozhin is a volatile guy who's a bit of a fabulous. he happens to be an effective military force, but he's not necessarily good news for anyone. >> right, ali, thanks for having me on. poor goshen is not a welcome substitute for vladimir putin. having said that, of course, it is good news for the ukrainians right now, because they're in a sights -- hardest fighting force, the wagner group of guys have left a battlefield. that's something that will benefit ukraine, but you're right, from the u.s. government perspective, i think the smart message to send is, of course, one of concern. we don't want to get involved, this is an internal matter for the russian federation.

i do think that putin is much weaker today, and it remains to be seen how much weaker he will be as a result of this. this could be the beginning of the end for him politically, which is not to say that it will come about tomorrow, but this is the biggest challenge that vladimir putin has faced in his entire governing as the russian federation since 2000. it is serious. >> crews often fail, certainly coups fails our first time around. doesn't mean that they don't succeed later. but in some cases, and the one i'm thinking about right now is turkey, the attempted coup against or the one caused him to be a marginally democratic leader, turning him into something of an autocrat. that's obviously not an issue in russia, because putin's already an autocrat, but when crews fail, if this one fails, putin is going to do something to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen again. what's the concern about what that looks like? >> that's right, ali.

first of all, i guess are girding in russia, and recording for a military confrontation between, again, these very well equipped, battle hard troops. we don't know how many exactly, but the majority of his troops, that could be 25,000 or so, confronting the russian security forces, which may not be as experienced, but they have the numbers and they also have the equipment, and of course the backing of the government. now, what happens next, if putin succeeds in putting down this coup, this armed rebellion, then he will crack down like nobody's business, and the russian government has been, overtime, cracking down increasingly on russian society. that's why you saw people who had demonstrated and called this the special military operation, which is putin's name for it over a year ago. they were calling it a war, and from that -- people like -- political leader is sitting in jail just for calling the war a

war -- now, the retribution will be even worse. it may look like something akin to what solomon did, which would mean, of course, much less of a judicial farcical process and more lives being lost. we know that erda one put people in jail, he was merciless in terms of finding people guilty and taking retribution. against the military, as well. anyone who putin thinks didn't stand up enough to defend him and the military, you know, including those people in rostov-on-don, they might be in some trouble, as well. >> so that makes a statement very interesting that i've just read from the new york times, quoting british military, which says, quote, this is the most significant challenge of the russian state in recent times. over the coming hours, the loyalty of russia's security

forces, and especially the russian national guard will be key to how the crisis plays out. this is important, evelyn, because on the face of it, one may say rostov-on-don prigozhin may have 24,000 troops on his is a puzzle, he may be able to row some more, but generally speaking, he is not equal to the russian military and the russian army. but where coups succeed is where generals cross winds. or someone says, i think this guy might be right, i'm joining him. what's your evaluation of how this might unfold on that front, because these other generals to join in with their men. r generals>> that's right, ali,e national guard force, when it was established, which was quite some time ago, by vladimir putin in order to make sure that he had a force that was loyal to him that would protect him physically, physically protect the kremlin, protect moscow. that force was established with vladimir putin's former bodyguard as the head of the force. i believe, and i didn't have a

chance to go and double check that he has been relieved a while ago, because there has been a lot of infighting inside the kremlin, inside putin's circles, and people have been moved around. this war is, whether it's popular or not is kind of irrelevant at the moment. the way that the war has been executed, all russians agree, has been horrible. in, that progression could find a lot of members of the military, military commanders, senior leaders, elites, agreeing with him. the question is whether promotional still for the war, because i think some of them, his questioning of the rationale maybe -- the war. he wants a strong russia, i guess he wants russia to prevail if russia is still going to have a war with ukraine. that is a little bit of a question mark in my head, because until now, he clearly was a nationalist as nationalistic as wintry putin, if not more so. >> evelyn, thanks very much for

your analysis, i knew that you would have information that we don't know, or at least know how to interpret. we appreciate that, we'll keep coming back to you, evelyn, and the former senior adviser to the supreme allied commander of europe and a former deputy secretary of defense here in the united states. coming up, we've got much more on this breaking news out of russia. where is the leader of russia's mercenary wagner force appears to be carrying out and attempted armor billion against the kremlin. we'll be right back. k. tourists photographing thousands of miles of remote coral reefs. that can be analyzed by ai in real time. ♪ so researchers can identify which areas are at risk. and help life underwater flourish. ♪

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breaking news out of russia. government officials have proved -- yevgeny prigozhin, the head of the wagner group of unarmed rebellion and are now calling for his arrest. joining me now is nbc news foreign correspondent delia russi in london. he's following this very closely for us. elderly, what do we know, it's a fast moving story with an equal amount of confirmed and unconfirmed information, but the concern here is that this is a real threat to the

stability of the russian administration and that they are taking this seriously as a potential coup or an armed rebellion. >> that's right, ali. they certainly are taking it very seriously, and that's evident from all of the statements that they've been making, from the very top. from vladimir putin, all the way down, making comparisons to 1917, calling this a serious challenge to the authority, trying to destabilize the country. if they didn't take this threat from progression seriously, they wouldn't be making this sort of statements. this is the biggest threat to face the russian state in recent memory. now the coming hours and days are going to be key, ali, to see what happens if the security services, of espionage all other branches of the security within russia. if the national guard don't remain loyal to putin, then this could be a very, very different situation in russia than any of us have ever seen

in recent memory. as you mentioned, it's very fast moving, we don't have the exact details of what's going on on the ground. prigozhin is saying that they've taken that town of rostov -- that key town where his mercenaries have been launching attacks on ukraine, where supplies go into ukraine from there. if, indeed, they have taken that town, that is a huge -- flood where putin's reputation and his fight in ukraine. what's more is prigozhin and his people that we can verify, are seeing the ticketed without a shot, and now that they're moving north towards moscow, and haven't really faced any resilience. if russian forces are acquiescing and letting them roll towards moscow, this is a picture today really serious challenge to vladimir putin. as kelly was saying earlier, he probably faces very little choices, but to completely

eliminate prigozhin and all of his troops. either way, you look at that, that's really bad for vladimir putin. -- this internal dispute where he shows he doesn't have -- and wipe out a bunch of russian mercenaries. on the other flip side of it, it's terrible for the war because they're paid such an instrumental role in the role for putin -- on the front line, mercenaries that are being very ruthless in their tactics, and he could lose up to 25,000 fighters on the frontline. it's a bad day for putin. >> we'll have to say this for a later conversation today or tomorrow, i'll leave, but there's something very important here, and that is the russian military on its own has not been able to prosecute this war in ukraine. they had two pieces of health, one is the wagner group whom they paid for, and the other one is the government of iran, who has given them those drones. iran is suddenly a very, very, even bigger friend to russia this morning. i want to check up with you on that, either later on or

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the wagner group is also linked to russia. it has, essentially, been a private mercenary militant forest for higher under russian control. but technically it operates outside of russian law. the group's founder is a guy, this guy, named you've guinea prigozhin. he's leading what is -- for a coup, against the kremlin. he's got close ties to vladimir putin. he was actually nickname putin's chef, not really a shift, he was a caterer. they first came about back in 2014, he played a role in russia's invasion of the don boss in eastern ukraine and crimea. he also has experience on behalf of russia and conflict in syria, libya and elsewhere. the wagner group has a reputation for being inhumane, committing human rights abuse as an atrocities according to the u.n., and human rights organizations. that's continued in the war in ukraine where, according to the white house, wagner at one point commanded roughly 50,000 troops, playing a vital role in

russia's war effort. also, only about a quarter of the forces actually trained and are contracted as mercenaries. the rest remain up of nearly recruited russian convicts. that said, wagner has also suffered tremendous losses fighting in ukraine, but with all this comes power. as we are now seeing play out, provision has been rather brazen in publicly speaking out about the kremlin's military failures in ukraine, offering harsh criticisms for top ranking officials, including the defense minister sergei surely do, and the leader of russia's forces in ukraine, the chief of staff, general valerie garage. back in january, the white house said it believed they were, quote, mounting tensions between wagner and the kremlin, and that wagner has established itself as a, quote, rival power center to russia's own military. joining me now is calling card, he's the director of research for the seven group, he's also senior research fellow at the chauvin center. he's an associate fellow for

international, at the international center for counterterrorism -- he's author of numerous books, including terrorism, and the financing of terrorism insurgency and irregular warfare. colin, thank you for being with us, i believe the stuff on groups got a report coming out on the wagner group this week. i need you to help me understand this, until now, we have known them to be a mercenary group, soldiers for higher, generally speaking, higher caliber soldiers in the russian military has been able to recruit for itself during this war. but what has happened now? is this, in your opinion, some sort of an armed rebellion or a coup. ? yeah or co up >> thanks for having, me ali. italy appears to be a crusader motion by this growing streak between goshen and -- military leaders. up until now, prigozhin has been careful not to threaten putin directly, now it seems he's crossed that line.

we're in a full scale civil conflict, we've got units coming in to fight against prigozhin's forces. it's a total mess, but there's serious implications for what happens next in ukraine, because wagner has been the muscle behind a lot of the territorial gains, including in documents. but further afield, as you mentioned earlier, wagner's active and present in syria, libya. molly, the central african republic sudan, venezuela, and many other places. with this conflict, what happens to russian influence in those countries if wagner is no longer a viable entity there? >> one of the things there that bring -- a couple weeks ago, he was the central african republic, demonstrating how wagner actually prefers to work in some of these other places. the seem to like to work clear of the russian military they seem to like to get paid the way they get paid. is half promotions beef with putin about the war in ukraine is it about not getting the

equipment that he thought he was supposed to get. is it about the fact that he had to deal with or answer to people in the russian military who thinks are incompetent? do we know what the beef is here? >> i think it's all the above and prigozhin hasn't been dry but releasing this kind of invectives on telegram where he's screaming at shoigu and making complaints about ammunition. he does want more credits. he sees his fighters as a separate vanguard, and elite vanguard from the russian military. it feels like he's not getting the support that he needs, and this is all coming to a head. frankly, i'm surprised it took this long. i did see that really excellent support for richard -- which reminds us that wagner is just more than a mercenary group. i liken wagner to a swiss army knife. they can do a lot of things. yes, they can do offensive combat operations, they can guard, provide security to -- , but they also have their hands in extra active

resources. they can help -- they also run disinformation campaigns for various dictators, so this isn't a one trick pony, this is a really useful tool of russian foreign policy, which moscow may no longer have. >> colin, let's talk a bit about the likelihood here. what has to happen for you prigozhin to succeed? we have unconfirmed reports that they may be moving on from rostov-on-don. maybe they're keeping some people there, but they're moving towards moscow. they may, or may not. they claim to 25,000 troops under his control. that may or may not be true. the bottom line is for his to exceed -- russian military, which is amassing in moscow and major cities around russia to protect the homeland. something more has to happen. this guy and his ragtag bunch of mercenaries are not going to over so the russian government unless other generals are there politicians, were popular support join some.

>> yeah, you'd have to see it large-scale defections from upper reaches of various russian elite security services. i think it's highly unlikely that we get to that point. for vladimir putin, failure in ukraine and the quote unquote special military operation in ukraine is manageable. failure in russia itself would be fatal and so i expect the kremlin to marshal all resources at their disposal to put down this uprising and to really take a no holds barred approach to watching this rebellion and things get very bloody very soon in russia, and i think we're all waiting with baited breath to see what happens next. >> what should my view are, who probably reflects some of my views on the fact that russia shouldn't have invaded an independent country, think about how any of this plays in terms of the war in ukraine? i'm trying to underscore the

point that prigozhin we're prosecute the war in ukraine as well. >> yeah, absolutely, so i think there is various opportunities for the ukrainians now to make significant gains, to press their counteroffensive. to retake seven -- moscow is distracted, to say the least, and i think the ukrainians have proven a death throughout this conflict -- and we're likely to see them attempting -- even further. and so there could be significant games coming on the heels of this. you know, really a great opportunity for kyiv to retake some of the territory that the russians have gobbled up over this course. i'd also like to say, this should be an inflection point for those in the west, in the u.s., in nato countries that have been supported the war up until this point. that haven't supported the ukrainians. look, it's working. we need to hold the line here, because russia's crumbling. all this support, both in terms

of material support, but also moral support, makes a difference. >> collin, thanks very much for your expertise, we are now going, i don't know if you guys can rush this reporter coming up with, but i know you've got a report coming out on the wagner group. people were always interested in it, and now it's imperative that we understand who they are. colin clark is the director of research at the sioux fawn grove. he's author of numerous books, including terrorism ink, the financing of terrorism, insurgency and irregular warfare. all right, we've got more velshi coming up, our live coverage of this continues after the break. r the break. shelves smart enough to see, sense, react, restock. ♪ so caramel swirl is always there for the taking.

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breaking news out of russia, where government officials are accusing the head of the wagner group, the mercenary group, of an armed rebellion and are now calling for his arrest. i'm joined now by terrell jermaine start he's a resident at instinct media. he's a host of black diplomats. terrell has been covering ukraine, he's been covering the war from the start. he's in ukraine now, and he's joined by a commander from the ukrainian armed forces. terrell, good afternoon to you in ukraine. i guess i want to understand from the perspective as ukrainian military, or people that are fighting russia for ukraine, whether this activity is filtering down to them and what it means and whether it matters to them. >> hello, thank you for having me here. actually, we have not felt yet that russia is moving his forces towards moscow, but in

my opinion -- they will have to move the forces to defend moscow and moscow region in my opinion. it's going to feel better for us and -- territories way faster. >> go ahead terrell. >> yeah, another thing that you are talking about earlier, you have experienced fighting wagner mercenaries, and so you can speak to the capabilities of the chaos that's happening in russia right now. they were asked -- to use a has a capacity and capabilities to make it all the way to moscow. >> in my opinion, they do have that could be abilities because they are better trained, they are better equipped, and in my opinion, prigozhin was getting ready for this operation for quite a long time. he was getting the ammunition sent to him by russia, and taking it back to russia to start the fight with putin, in

my opinion. it is quite possible for him to get to moscow and to get putin -- >> another thing, ali, it -- certainly is that, this is constantly moving things, people here in ukraine are moving pretty cautiously about how this is going to impact people here on the ground. for example, whatever weak spots that could potentially be exploited as a result. what's happening in russia are yet to be fulfilled, this counteroffensive has -- ongoing. it may take a few days, weeks, even more to determine exactly how the armed force here can take advantage of what's happening. >> this is an important point that the commander makes, and that is we know in the west that russia has been throwing everything it's got at this war. it ran out of people, it started emptying the prisons to get these people to fight. it doesn't have extra soldiers. if russian soldiers now have to

defend russian cities, including the capital, moscow or st. petersburg or people places like that against even a possible uprising, these are people who cannot be sent to ukraine to fight. that is the -- most important advantage that ukraine faces right now. >> actually, in fact prigozhin was preparing this operation, and putin was not preparing to counter acts. so he has mostly experienced soldiers now, and there are not few. putin was not ready for this development of -- and he doesn't know what to do now. they will be trying to move all the resources from the frontlines to defend moscow now. it's very positive development of events for ukraine. >> and, of course terrell, for the perspective of nato and the

countries, and on nato countries who have been supporting ukraine, we're in a pivotal moment right now, because ukraine has been trying to break through and make some territorial gains. they've had some success, but after months and months of getting all the weaponry that they've been asking for, including the fact that they're now going to soon start to get training on the f 16 jets and get those exits dean jets, this is a shot in the arm that ukraine needs. incidentally precautions are going to be any nicer to ukraine than putin was, he's a bit of a maniac. but, it may give ukraine a bit of momentum. >> it certainly does, there's definitely been encouraging development here in ukraine. you see this on social media, where people are really taking pleasure in the dysfunction that's happening in ukraine. the main thing that you need to recognize is that this counteroffensive is moving on largely without air support. and so, these type of counter offensives have never really

happened before, and so you brought up the f 16, something that the ukrainians have been asking for since the beginning of this war and that they had this training, and these f 16's -- on the ground here. then this war, many are you here, would have ended much sooner. what's happening here, -- that's taking place right now -- given that's, but ukraine does not have total air supremacy. >> commander, let me ask you something about soldiers like yourself. what do you think of with respect to progress version? people think about him, what is he known for, is he a target of your attentions and is he taken seriously? >> he's definitely the target of our attention, we've been fighting wagner for the last several months. we destroyed the big forces of wagner in the bucket direction, but generally, it is a positive

event, because -- one terrorist group is going to face another terrorist group of putin. it's going to play -- for ukraine. that's what makes us motivated. >> another thing that i just wanted to add, mom luka has been fighting the russians since the early 1990s. he was 14 or 15 years old -- when he fought in a plaza. and then from there, he fought the russians on the -- first civil war. his experience of fighting moscow goes back more than 30 years, and so he is one of the few soldiers here that's can recall his childhood, where he actually took up arms against this ongoing battle between russia and putin -- >> this is an important point you bring out, because mamuka, we in the west have largely come to no prigozhin's name since the invasion last year.

progression has been fighting in ukraine since crimea, since 2014. it was in donetsk, it was prigozhin's guys who are going in there. he actually has, his abilities and performance in ukraine, whether you like him or not, have been stronger than that of the russian military. >> yes, as i mentioned, his group is better equipped. putin gave him a green light -- parts of ukraine. he's for a long time engaged in this war, and he recently, after the full kill scale war, he just showed up and recognize that they were here, and try to occupy ukraine from 2014. we know it is a strong group and they just faced russia mobilize soldiers. >> another thing to add, ali, this has ducal -- in the black sea region because,

as mamuka explained to me, a lot of the troops that have been moved to ukraine have come from -- fourth and 20% of georgia is currently under russian up you patient. mamuka said this if it's a sense of being successful in regards to the burning wagner's troops out of ukraine and fast pacing a victory here, that could mean trouble for -- russia. forhis man could take over a pe -- in 24 hours because the troops have been -- regions. [inaudible] >> every troops that has to be relocated in the -- somewhere else. >> yes, they were sent from the beginning with a full scale war. all the troops from the -- region, it's a part of georgia, they're being sent to ukraine.

-- the region of georgia, also they sent the forces that are hundred soldiers left actually. and for georgia, it's a chance -- territories. >> this is interesting -- >> and also because this mirrors the collapse of the soviet union, right? russia was so occupied in afghanistan with so many soldiers there that they couldn't, they just couldn't do all the other stuff all over the place. this is a country that, during the snowy times and in the post so we at times, has relied on his military might, its ability to put soldiers and weaponry and missiles and nuclear threat in places. a threat at home, regardless if this is the most serious threat or not, regardless if prigozhin will succeed in a coup, moscow has no choice but to defend against it, which means that moscow being an interventionist country all over the place starts to have its limitations starting today.

>> absolutely, and another thing that's important to keep in mind is that ukraine is really the first modern military that putin has really fought. when you think of -- it bombed into submission, didn't have air support, didn't have the sophisticated training and experience of the ukrainian soldiers here. people like mamuka. you can mind that places like moldova, which was given you can to see status, they have -- where russian troops are also there. there's a lot of pressure points from a whole lot of angles that putin didn't anticipate, primarily because he didn't expect ukraine to fight back so fiercely and the international community to contribute arms as frequently as they did. and so, all these pressure points are going to be unsustainable for putin to handle, precisely because these troops are being spread thin. >> what do you think is going to happen, mamuka, and i ask you this all because i want you

to predict it, but morale right now is really important for ukrainians. what the world forgets is that there are tens of thousands of ukrainian civilians who have join the military, or the civilian defense who have been injured, named, they're missing limbs. this have has been a hard war with power outages and cold winters. what does this do for ukrainians? is there a spirit in ukraine that's being felt that says, something is faltering in russia and this could be good for us? >> actually, what we see today is the corpse of former soviet union. what we saw was -- a former soviets union and ukraine is on the frontline of this. actually, the morale is already -- information in ukraine and we're doing the best to support our friends. as they supported us in the 90s, and in 2008, also georgians will be here to occupy all of

ukraine. it's in historical moments when -- >> it's historical moment we are good defeats evil. terrell, tell me about what you think, if anything, the country supporting ukraine right now are thinking and doing strategically? i've been seeing those from the british military, the british government, that they are holding emergency meetings, canadians are holding emergency meetings. everybody is getting ready for something. i don't know what the something is what's your sense of what that something could be? >> well, the something that people, i think that something is more possibilities, because right now, if prigozhin it's able to go to moscow, a lot of people don't think that that would happen because ultimately, the challenge that -- he's going against a regime in which he may not have the best relationships with the key lead within the military. and so, right now that's probably the issue. mthe possibility could be that

if putin falls, a possibility could be that, you know, if bercow xin takes over, he still has the potential for a new color assets being compromised. that's the number one concern that people have. so we don't know that he won't continue this war. . but in regards to how much worse it could get? it's the primary concern that i'm hearing that people have. primarily with those nuclear assets. everything else is manageable relatively speaking. >> i get your. point thanks to both of you. mocha, thank you for your time this morning and your analysis. there is nobody better to get that information from then somebody like you who's been on the ground fighting these wars against the wagner group. terrell, thank you for coordinating. this will keep in close touch with. you and independent journalist in ukraine. more velshi starts now.

did, morning it is saturday, june 24th, i'm ali velshi, we begin with the latest in the war in ukraine. the latest is taking place not in ukraine. it's across the border in russia. a town called rostov, rostov-on-don, it's one of the main staging areas for russia's invasion into ukraine. rostov it is under the claimed control of yevgeny prigozhin, the leader of the brutal wagner mercenary force. a force which, up until the last couple of, days was fighting on behalf of, russia notably in and around bakhmut. yesterday, prigozhin's force crossed from ukraine into russia, claiming control of rostov-on-don, you can see it near mariupol at the south at the bottom of your screen. they're claiming control of the southern military headquarters of the russian armed forces. which is located within the city of rostov-on-don. this is important because see where the war is being fought? luhansk?

mario?