minute by minute which fighter in the jar has the best seat today in russia, but to look at our own options in how we achieve victory in ukraine and how we determine the outcome of that crisis and set our own policies so moscow is not primary in our decision-making. >> something that has kept me up for the last night is, is prigozhin really just going to hang out in belarus? what richard engel just said when he wrapped his last piece, maybe he's just biting us time. where do you stand? >> it's a good question. it's absolutely a question. i think the summary and the angle piece is really important. we focused a lot on a wagner in ukraine, wagner in syria, wagner in libya, some of these foreign junk it's. the power base of wagner that prigozhin has built is really

in africa and sub-saharan africa and its ability to generate wealth. how can we sustain that? does he still have access to that? what does it give him in russia? it's a really good question. >> does his use outweigh his threat to the russian president? molly mchugh, thank you, my friend. we have a lot more coming up, everybody. you're watching msnbc. our second hour starts right now. a, hey, everybody. welcome back. i am yasmin vossoughian. if you are just joining us, welcome. it's fantastic to see you. if you are sticking with us, we are thankful for that. we are continuing our coverage this hour with more fallout from the wagner group rebellion against russia. a deal was brokered between yevgeny prigozhin and the kremlin. it stopped mercenary troops in their tracks, averting an armed confrontation. so has the temperature come down in moscow today. how has this impacted putin's

grip on power? i'm going to ask in just a moment. meanwhile, back in this country, we have results from a new nbc news poll which has surprising findings about where trump stands in the race for the white house. we want to force the developing story. nbc news is joining us now. here, for folks who are just joining us, give us a sense of what you have been seeing in moscow since you have landed. >> yasmin, you can see behind me, on the building behind me that all too familiar z in support of the russian forces in ukraine is on the building there, so, what does that tell us? well, i think it tells us that this has not -- what has happened in the final last few days has not shaken entirely rushes nationalistic

belief in itself. another observation that we will be making is this horror going through moscow. i've watched president putin travel many times. it's just business as usual. things are stunningly ordinary here in moscow when you consider that i was wondering whether, 24 hours ago, i was wondering whether we would be staying here and street fighting between russians on the streets of moscow. yevgeny prigozhin's wagner soldiers were on their way here on the and for freeway until they just abruptly turned around because a deal was done with president putin. to be honest, tonight, here in moscow and across russia, i suspect people are trying to figure out themselves what this all means.

>> is there any, keir -- i know you just landed there so you haven't had a chance to dig in and speak to folks there and it's not necessarily something easily done either. is there any security presence on the ground? is there a military presence on the ground that you are seeing, any remnants that there was preparation for the possible arrival of the wagner group? have you had the opportunity to speak to anybody since you have been there? how have they interpreted these events? >> yeah, listen, there are some national guards on the streets but nothing, nothing like what you might have expected if things and played out differently in the past 48 hours. you know, yasmin, that is one of the main purposes of being here, just to speak to ordinary russians. >> yeah. >> let's take in about this country, this country that has a around about path of nuclear warheads in the world, was on the brink of chaos this week.

a rebel leader was looking to take power from the man who are in charge of those nuclear weapons. it's sobering. i think there is an important job to do, it's just to try to figure out what russia is thinking right now, not easy to do. it's a country of 11 time zones. it doesn't take a genius to figure out, i guess, that many russians will be just wondering where they go from here. an immigration officer at the airport questioned me as i came through. an offhand moment, he said, we can't have a rebel army fighting other russians. that can't work. we are in uncharted territory. i think the kremlin, as we look ahead, we'll really try to make it look as if it is kind of

done now. nothing to see here. one of the things that this past weekend has taught us is that you never quite know what is going on beneath the surface of russia. >> you were one of the last western journalists to interview vladimir putin one-on-one. that was two years ago. i want to remind people of that interview and play a little bit of it because there is something that he said in that interview about stability that i think is key to what is happening right now. let's listen to that. >> you would say that you have caused a lot of instability and unpredictability. >> translator: well, he says one thing, i say another thing. at some point, in certain ways, if you ask my opinion now, i am telling you what it is. the most important value in

international affairs is instability. >> i think the russian president himself would say right now predictability and stability is not necessarily something you can equate with russia considering what has happened over the last 24 hours. >> he might or he might simply say that he is stability for russia. that is the message that he has given for the last 20 years. it is worth keeping in mind that before president putin this was a very unstable country into the 1990s. you know, it's really important for us not to jump to conclusions about what russians might be thinking right now. many may have looked over the abyss this weekend and think, that's the kind of instability i don't want. we talk about the people around president putin being afraid of him. i think potentially also they are likely afraid of the unknown. it's important to remember that the way that russia's run is not just president putin.

it's actually a large group of elites who all have a vested interest. president putin has been through presidential instability before, nothing like this. he's come out the other side. it's just another way of saying that we don't know where we will be in the months and years to come. >> we do not know. keir simmons, thank you, my friend. please stay safe. from inside russia, we now head to ukraine. i want to go to nbc news correspondent ross sanchez in the capital kitty of kyiv. it's good to talk to you as well. maybe one of the most surprising things about the end of the rebellion is that, in fact, belarus made it happen. what are the expectations for how prigozhin lives his life in belarus or, as richard engel said in the last hour, is he just biding his time? iding his time

>> yasmin, i think it is safe to assume that prigozhin is sleeping with one eye open in belarus. i would be very surprised if this gets to be a quiet retirement for a man who just challenged vladimir putin, who just put up with the biggest resistance to putin's decades in power. as you know very well, people who crossed putin have a habit of turning up dead. the list is long, from boris names of, the opposition politician gunned down literally in the shadow of the kremlin in 2015, alexander litvinenko, putin's former comrade in the kgb who was poisoned with polonium in london in 2006 -- these were people who committed much more minor transgressions against the russian president than the humiliating blow that prigozhin felt him yesterday, seizing the southern city of rostov, marching north toward

the capital of russia, toured moscow. we will see. it's worth noting that prigozhin has been quiet, uncharacteristically quiet, over the last 24 hours or so, a little bit less now. he was last seen leaving this military headquarters. he was cheered by russian civilians on the streets. he was treated like a folk hero. his telegram channel has been so lively over the last couple of days. the wagner group has its own press office. their communication channels have gone totally silent. the big question will be, can prigozhin keep himself quiet inside belarus? can he resist the urge to keep up his absolutely searing indictment of russia's military? we shall see. i think how he behaves will probably to a certain extent dike dictate how putin behaves towards him.

>> ralph, that is such a smart way to put it. the way this man operates, it seems as if he is a bit of an egomaniac. to understand that he has somewhat of a support from the russian military, this hero's welcome and this heroes exit that he had. i wonder how long he can weigh it out in belarus especially when we don't even know the terms of the deal and if putin is in fact going to abide by that deal. i'm wondering, braff, as ukrainians wake up today and went about their day, what were they telling you about the state of affairs they're considering now this state that they see vladimir putin in? >> well, yasmin, it's really remarkable. we talked about this yesterday. the streets of kyiv are calm and open. people were out having brunch in cafés in the shadow of the cathedral behind me whereas in moscow, as keir was saying, there may not be tanks on the streets but they're still national guard presence. this is a city that last night

was preparing for military incursion. president zelenskyy kind of is echoing the point you were making about stability with keir. president zelenskyy has been talking today about how there is no stability in russia and no one should take the words of the russian leadership, be a putin or the people around him, to the bank. he is saying that the only thing that can be relied on here are not russian promises and some future peace deal but ukrainian strength of arms. ukraine is absolutely determined to liberate every inch of its land, not just a territory taken in the last year since the full scale russian invasion if they were 2022 but the areas taken back in 2014. zelenskyy spoke earlier to the prime minister of canada, justin trudeau. he updated him on the state of the counteroffensive here. as we have seen over the last two weeks, the ukrainians have struggled to make grounds. their progress has been

measured in small villages, not in cities. the british ministry of defence said earlier today that the ukrainians appear to have paused. they appear to be reset again trying to learn from the mistakes or the struggles or the setbacks of the last couple of weeks. i think the big picture on the battlefield, yasmin, is that there is no sign right now that the ukrainians have been able to capitalize on this disarray inside russia. yasmin? >> for now, for now. we are only 24 hours out from the quote unquote deal. we will have to wait and see how things play out. raf sanchez, thank you. how does this all change the strategy for the ukrainian counter offensive as raf just got into? could the end of the war been ear? could this really be the beginning of the off ramp? former adviser to ukrainian president zelenskyy corner over cough joins me in 60 seconds. we will be back. cough joins me in 60 seconds we will be back. wayfair has nice prices so you can have nice things. hah! kelly clarkson, we have a kid...

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new fallout after unprecedented it challenge to president putin's power and new questions about how this is stunning turn of events over the last 48 hours could impact the future of the war in ukraine. joining me now is former advisor to zelenskyy igor novikov who always delivers for us not only in analysis but also what is behind him and what he is wearing. we are thankful for that especially amidst all that has been happening over the last 48 hours not too far from where you sit. tell me about your reaction to what has taken place in moscow. >> my reaction was not that -- first of all, a certain degree of excitement. any trouble for the regime, any weakness for the regime -- secondly, there was a lot of fighting as well. russia has been accusing ukraine of being a failed state.

after yesterday, i think we kind of know who the real failed state is. there was also a bit of a fear of uncertainty. any chaos in russia kind of escalates and attracts attention. the victim of that -- >> tell me about next apps for ukraine. i just spoke to my colleague raf sanchez. he said to me, as of yet, it doesn't seem like ukraine has been able to capitalize on this moment in which the russian military and the wagner mercenary group seemed distracted for a time. who knows what is to come as they return to their post? it seems this weekend a state that we are seeing from the russian president until we hear what is next for him, how do you suspect the ukrainian military should capitalize on this? not only domestically but in their asks of the united states

and the west for supplies? >> first of all, i think we need to separate two very important points. the situation is not over yet. we saw a big theatrical performance yesterday. i think the only clear certainty that we have as of yesterday is the real falling of the russian from what we saw they don't really care one way or the other. [inaudible] putin was supported by organizers and pilots. the russian population is incredibly passive. for ukraine, it doesn't change anything. we have the counter offensive to focus on. we need to remember that this counteroffensive is not going to be swift. remember what happened in kherson. for two months, people expected it to fall any day.

kurson fell. i think time is of the essence here and we should not be distracted by what is happening in russia. >> is this a time, though, for ukrainians to begin to think about reclaiming territory that has been taken? i'm talking specifically of crimea as well. is it too soon to even think about something like that? >> i think president zelenskyy was incredibly afraid of this even before prigozhin's theatrical. ukraine's goal in this war is to restore its territorial integrity. the borders of 1991 include crimea. nothing has changed that fact. once again, the only thing that i would also focus on is what happens to wagner after this stuff. they get repositioned in belarus. we need to -- >> igor novikov, we are thankful for you. thank you, sir.

still ahead, everybody, growing concerns on a global scale. how are other countries and u.s. lawmakers responding to the turmoil? are americans in russia at risk? plus, a major flip-flop. ukraine is now a more stable place than russia's capital seems at times. we're going to discuss the stunning turn of events with a former u.s. ambassador to ukraine coming up. we will be right back. ador t ukraine coming up. we will be right back. we will be right back. u can get the incredible iphone 14 pro max on us with myplan. so you get exactly what you want and only pay for what you need. act now and get iphone 14 pro max on us when you switch. for a limited time only. it's your verizon. whenever you're hungry, there's a deal on the subway app. buy one footlong, get one 50% off in the subway app today. now that's a deal worth celebrating. man, what are you doing?! get it before it's gone on the subway app. ♪♪ to help prevent bleeding gums. try saying 'hello gumwash' with parodontax active gum health. it kills 99% plaque bacteria. and forms an antibacterial shield.

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moments ago, ukrainian president zelenskyy tweeted that he spoke to president biden. he said in part it was a positive and inspiring conversation, saying they discuss the course of hostilities and that, quote, the world must put pressure on russia until international order is restored. i want to bring in nbc's mack briley who joins us now with more on this. talk us through what we are hearing from the biden administration on this. i know the secretary of state as well was on many sunday shows this morning responding to the chaos in russia. >> yeah.

he made the rounds on the sunday shows. i think the overwhelming message that we are hearing from the secretary of state antony blinken is that this is not over. on his rounds on these sunday shows, lincoln said, time and again, promotions mutiny exposed real cracks in vladimir putin's government and that it could potentially yield some opportunities for ukrainians on the battlefield. he reminded viewers that this is a problem of putin's own making. he told cnn and others that prigozhin it is basically a beast of putin's own creation, a frankenstein that turned against its inventor. with nbc's own choctaw on meet the press this morning, blinken kind of assumed out and talked about how this internal mutiny joins a long list of external problems that putin made himself when he invaded ukraine back in february 2022. here is what he said. >> this just creates another problem for putin. keep this in mind, chuck. this is just the latest chapter

in a book of failure that putin has written for himself and for russia economically, militarily. all of those things have plummeted. we have a united nato that is stronger than ever before, a europe that is waning itself off of russian energy, a ukraine that putin has managed to alienate and unite at the same time. now, with trouble brewing from within, as i said, it adds more questions that he has to find answers for. >> he has won, it's important to note that this was a failed coup that only lasted less than 24 hours. why are western leaders and ukrainian officials appearing to crow about this? even though nothing has really changed within russia's leadership, prigozhin's attempted mutiny really stripped putin of this veneer of invincibility in front of the russian public. remember that putin had to deliver a humiliating speech

yesterday morning acknowledging that one of his own confidence was trying to upend him. when you look at all of this, putin is the big loser here. it's hard not to agree with the secretary of state? >> thank you, matt. i want to come back here into the united states and talk specifically about what is happening in d.c., capitol hill, where lawmakers on both sides of the aisle are reacting to this. the significance of this rebellion is being echoed by a number of prominent voices on the hill including senator amy klobuchar. we saw a demonstrable kraken putin's strength. republican senator marco rubio on the foreign relations committee called the developments, quote, extraordinary. i want to bring in julia gestured at the capitol for more on this. it seems as if when anything happens overseas it's one thing that both republicans and democrats can actually agree upon. julia, what more are we hearing from lawmakers today? >> you're not wrong, yasmin.

we have learned today that u.s. intelligence agencies have gathered information this week that prigozhin was planning this revolt. a source tells me this afternoon that to the gang of eight was briefed on this this week. nonetheless, many lawmakers were surprised watching all of this unfold. across the board, they acknowledge that putin's power is significantly weakened. you read quite a few strong quotes just now. some are a little skeptical of just how weak this will make putin. for example, you have adam smith, the ranking armed services member, saying he tends to be a skeptic on that. time will tell just how much this diminishes putin's power. take a listen to the sentiment that we have been hearing from lawmakers today. >> there was no surprise that

there is a long running tension between prigozhin and the leadership of the military. wagner is well known from being -- these are thugs and war criminals. he would turn on his own country to threaten to attack putin. that was shocking to me even if there may be others who were briefed about that in advance. >> the conflict between prigozhin and putin was inevitable. entering into moscow, entering into russia itself and taking their convoy to moscow, that really shows the basic issue of whether or not putin controls his military. for any government to have stability, they have to control their military. obviously, prigozhin in order to make it that distance has to have accomplices. where was the air force? where was the air force presenting this? that's going to be an issue that putin is going to have to deal with internationally and domestically. >> yasmin, congress is looking

at where this is going to take russia beyond its own borders. ukraine and china -- how will ukraine capitalize on this moment? how can congress ensure that ukraine has what it means to do so? what will china do? you have the chairman of house foreign affairs, congressman michael mccaul, saying chairman xi is probably having second thoughts about its alliance with putin and is taking a close look as it navigates its situation with taiwan. lots of ripple effects are coming out of this unrest in russia, yasmin. >> julia jester, thank you. after the break, how does all of this turmoil in russia week in the president, if it does? is he losing control? no one really knows. i'm going to ask the experts. former deputy assistant secretary of defense for eurasia evelyn farkas and former u.s. ambassador to ukraine john herbst or coming up next. ukraine john herbst or comin up next. verizon! where you can get the incredible iphone 14 pro max on us with myplan. so you get exactly what you want and only pay for what you need.

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the russian president could be in the most vulnerable position the world has ever seen him in. as far as for what could happen next, that's really the question. i want to ask too -- currently executive director at the mccain institute and former u.s. ambassador to ukraine john herbst who is now the senior director of the atlantic councils eurasia center. welcome to you both. i appreciate it. evelyn, let me start with you on this one. this is going to be a question for both of you.

do you feel as if putin is in a week in the state right now? if so, what does that mean going forward? >> right, yasmin, he clearly is in a we can state. i mean, he was confronted in the most blatant military fashion by one of his mercenary chiefs, by his erstwhile ally yevgeny prigozhin, and the wagner forces. the confrontation was only solved when putin backed down. prigozhin also backed down but all of this left a lot of blood in the water. i'm sure the elites in moscow now see putin as they are elite, someone who looked like he was going to fall from power yesterday. he certainly looked nervous. he didn't radiate any strength yesterday. as a result, i think what we are going to see is putin trying to assert his authority, trying to clamp down on the

elites and on russian society. it is going to be some rough riding going forward. >> if you in fact agree with evidence analysis there, how do you expect the russian president to assert his authority? >> there is no question he has been a seriously diminished. there is no question that he was afraid of a confrontation with a man who is seen as a war hero in russia despite all of his ethical lapses, you might say, and that putin blinked. he cannot escape this. i don't know what he will do next. it's true that he might be able to get a final solution to prigozhin. he would be able to -- a popular figure in russia. putin has to tread very carefully. there is a lot of speculation that there will be a minister of defense.

they don't want to do that right now. that would suggest that prigozhin insisted on it. >> as you call prigozhin this popular figure in russia, do you think that prigozhin is taking that into account, evelyn, as he took this deal yesterday, seeing that he was applauded as he entered and exited the city feeling as if russian president vladimir putin would not necessarily take him out as he would other adversaries that would have pulled something off like this because of the popularity that he has not only amongst russian citizens but among the russian military? >> right, yasmin. make no mistake. whether a given russian citizen or member of the military likes the war or not, what they all agree on is that the war is not going according to plan. the war is not going well. prigozhin said it loudly and publicly. for that, they applaud him. he looks like he is looking out for the average elon in the

field. prigozhin probably thinks there is some protection in that. i would venture to say that he might be right. the other aspect of it is if he is indeed allowed to go to belarus i think the belarusian leader alexander lukashenko who will protect him. that will be a little bit of a trump card, a card that he can play. prigozhin knows a lot. he still controls the wagner empire. >> actually, i want you to expand on that for a moment and then i'm going to come to you, ambassador. what incentive does lukashenko have to protect prigozhin. his health is failing. he may very well have been set up to take leadership in belarus, for all we know. >> right. >> considering his relationship with lukashenko and putin. what incentive does he have? >> you just raise something completely new that i hadn't even thought of, yasmin.

this is how interesting this whole scenario is. [laughter] there are so many possibilities. this is not a transparent situation by any stretch of the imagination. the belarusian leader alexander lukashenko wants to control the belarus and he wants belarus to maintain its sovereignty. he has been resisting a complete fusion between russia and belarus ever since putin has been pushing for it. prigozhin offers him another need potentially to put pressure on putin to maintain belarus's utility to putin or lukashenko's utility to putin. >> ambassador, it seems as if this is a real moment for ukraine. i've been speaking about this throughout the last 24 to 48 hours. how are they capitalizing on it, right? that's the real question. can they actually go so far as to take back territory that has been taken from them to go so

far as to take back crimea? is this a moment they can really capitalize on that? i know we are just 24 hours outside of this conflict but it's really all about planning it. it will take time. >> first point, the ukrainian counteroffensive is now about three weeks old. it has not gone as well as expected. in fact, ukraine has taken back over 100 square kilometers of territory which compares favorably with moscow's nine-month offensive to take one back. that is 0.1. 0.2, the lack of control we are seeing in russia today, we are still seeing it even with the resolution today. ukraine has an additional advantage. the fact that the most popular military figure in russia, prigozhin, went against putin's further going to demoralize or

will already have demoralized russian soldiers. prigozhin soldiers took control of the headquarters of russian activity for their war in ukraine. it's another sign of chaos on the russian side which the ukrainians can and will take advantage of. there are reports today on telegram, the russian social media site -- i can't say this is true, but stuff on telegram often prove to be true, just early to be reported, that the ukrainians have put armor on the dnipro river in the kherson area. that would be a significant development. >> ambassador john herbst, thank you so much. evelyn farkas, thank you as well. we are going to take a break for a moment from russia. we got some major new polling out today just released suggesting that florida governor and presidential hopeful run desantis has his work cut out for him heading into the 2024 primary.

mark marie breaks down the numbers coming up next. aks down the numbers coming up next (vo) when someone is diagnosed with cancer, they need support. subaru and our retailers are there to help... by providing blankets for comfort and warmth and encouraging messages of hope to help support nearly three hundred thousand patients facing cancer nationwide. we call it “the subaru love promise.” and we're proud to be the largest automotive donor to the leukemia and lymphoma society. subaru. more than a car company.

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so lewinsky tweeted about the call, saying they had a, quote, positive and inspiring conversation. we are monitoring what is happening inside russia, of course, but i want to get to the brand-new nbc news poll released earlier today, one of the most interesting finds, former president donald trump's lead is growing in the gop primary despite his indictment. i want to bring in senior political editor marc murray to talk more about this. break this down for us, right? if we're looking at 2024, specifically the republican primary race, what did the polling find here? >> the polling finds, yasmin, that republican primary voters are not all that concerned about that indictment that was just a couple of weeks ago for the former president. not only do we end up finding donald trump's lead increasing in our poll from april, we ended up finding that 77% of republican primary voters say they have no concerns at all or just minor concerns about the

indictment. by comparison, -- it is just not the story about donald trump. it's also about ron desantis. it is status in our poll has declined nine point since april, going from 31% of support for the republican primary voters down to 22%. yasmin, in a head to head matchup, when you reduce the field to donald trump and ron desantis, you have the former president donald trump leading by close to 30 points over ron desantis. that is what the situation looks like right now. >> it's interesting in the head to head matchup between donald trump and joe biden, joe biden leads at 49 to donald trump's 45. in a dead heat there. can we talk about some of the polling on abortion that came out of the new poll as well? in the last week or so in the lead up to the anniversary of the dobbs decision, many democrats were out talking about how 2024 needs to be

about abortion. that is what calling it abortion politics, that's what democrats need to be campaigning on. is that what the numbers are telling us? >> overall, our polls show that 61% of our voters say that they disapprove of the dobbs decision that overturned roe v. wade versus 36% who approve the -- breaking it down among key segments of the population, you have suburban women. 66% of them say they disapprove of the dobbs decision. importantly, a third of republicans say that they ended up disapproving, some 31%. that has striking takeaways but it's also a matter of intensity. you have 87% of democrats who strongly disapprove with the dobbs decision versus just 52% of republicans strongly approving. that's a 35 point gap in intensity. >> wow, mark marie, fascinating stuff there. thank you.

>> thanks. >> this is far from over. those are the words from one russia policy expert. i'm going to talk to her about the implications we could see unfold in the coming weeks. stay with me. unfold in the coming weeks stay with me our heritage is ingrained in our skin. and even when we metamorphosize into our new evolved form, we carry that spirit with us. because you can take alfa romeo out of italy. but you best believe, you can't take the italy out of an alfa romeo. i'm saving with liberty mutual, mom. they customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. you could save $700 dollars just by switching. ooooh, let me put a reminder on my phone. on the top of the pile! oh. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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the unrest in russia is coming as ukraine continues its major counteroffensive. defensively from ukrainian troops have made progress in, quote, all directions. questions remain about what an unstable putin regime means and the wagner groups uncertain loyalty for this war. olga loudmouth is a fellow at the center for european policy. she's also the co-host of the kremlin file podcast any senior investigative reporter for the use of european integrity. thank you for joining us. i appreciate it. he tweeted this -- whatever the circus is happening now, this is far from over. no negotiations can erase the lines that have been crossed. tell me more. >> well, what we saw over the

past 48 hours actually started about nine months ago when ukraine was conducting a successful counteroffensive and prigozhin became extremely critical of the ministry of defense. the fractures continue growing. it got to a point that it resulted in prigozhin taken up arms and basically making a 200 kilometers from moscow. if we think prigozhin is going to go away quietly, he won't. over the past nine months, he has used a tactic that he deployed against the west with the likes of donald trump and european far-right figures across europe in order to divide the society and get the people to support him. you see he has been extremely critical about putin's inner circle, the defense ministry,

the elites, the oligarchs, for them to surrender their assets and give them to the people. this will continue because he has grown very much into this role of being the populist leader and he will continue going forward. >> why would he take the deal? >> i think there were -- i mean, there are a lot of questions of what happened and why he backed down. i don't believe that the deal is that he is going to belarus. [inaudible] belarus is a satellite state. there may be some logistical issues last minute. maybe he wanted to send a message to putin that testing, testing he would show him that he needs to question what security service factions are supporting putin. we clearly saw there were not that many.

maybe he would want to see how many people would welcome the march toward moscow and if he had enough support to go through with it. >> do you expect the wagner forces to join the russian military as the kremlin said they would considering the loyalty we have seen them have toward prigozhin, such loyalty that they would march toward moscow impossible anticipation of taking the regime from leonard gruden who has ruled rusher for the last 23 years? >> i don't believe it. maybe a small percentage of them will join the ministry of defense. i honestly don't believe that a majority will. look, over the past century, this is a very paranoid society and a very vengeful society. prigozhin and the wagner rights have crossed lines that he would be executed for on the spot. for them right now, every

single one of them who participated in this, all of the russian military bloggers, even the gru forces, the military forces that joined prigozhin along the way, they are dead man walking. we even saw a few high-profile generals look over to prigozhin. i don't believe that the rift is going to continue to the point that we're going to see more of this chaos unraveling. >> you talked about paranoia. the times writes this -- quote, even assuming he holds on to power, policy makers worry that putin could grow more erratic if he feels backed into a corner. what do you make of that? >> i do agree. i mean, look, putin is very well-known for eliminating people over his two decade plus rule. he got a very good pace for himself when no one came to his

defense in full force and he had to flee moscow if he was even in moscow. you saw the senior leaders flee and moscow to go into hiding. i do think that he is going to get into -- at the same time, i would not worry about his erratic behavior only because of the fact that he alone can do it. he will need to rely on someone. people are losing trust in their leader and don't know how he will be there in power form. they might not carry out orders such as a nuclear attack and so forth? >> how do you expect putin to clean this up, olga? >> i think it is going to continue to get worse. i don't picture him cleaning this up. >> even publicly after making his statement that he did saturday morning, he will have to say something to say face.

do you expect that to happen? >> i don't expect him in the near term to say anything. i think the state media has already been directed to whitewash what happened over the next 48 hours. i think it will just continue until the next event. don't forget this comes two weeks on the heels of storm in belgorod. we are going to continue to see these forces going to russia. they're going to continue to be more chaos. you will shift to the next narrative that unfolds. >> olga lautman, thank you so much, appreciate it. that wraps up for me, everybody. i am yasmin vossoughian. you can catch me this tuesday, wednesday ten a.m.. friday at one pm as well. i'm gonna be all over the place. i'm also be back at the same share, same time, safe place, next weekend. so if you can't make it through the week, i will see you then. my friend amen picks up our special coverage right now as we