thank you to -- on the special sunday night edition of alex wagner tonight. it has been 48 hours since an attempted military rebellion and one of civilization's biggest nuclear powers. the world is on edge. to be honest, we are all kind of unsure what it all means.

this has been one of the most confusing and dramatic moments and recent russian history. we are very much still finding out how this armed rebellion came together. what the u.s. knew about it, what the fallout will be for russia and ukraine. frankly, the rest of the globe. on friday, the standoff began when the leader of a russian private military group posted a series of recorded video and audio messages on telegram. messages that under mind jet ross is justification for the war in ukraine and called for our march for justice. against the russian military. the man who posted these messages, the name you have certainly heard a lot through the past few days, yevgeny prigozhin. he is the leader of the russian private mercenary army known as the wagner group. a group that has been on the frontlines of russia's war in ukraine. now the wagner mercenaries are known to be some of the most brutal forces fighting in ukraine. they have recruited fighters in

russian prisons, they have staged violent executions and they are heavily involved in russia's other military interventions across africa and the middle east in places like syria and the central african republic. the wagner group is not known to be a bunch of nice guys. on saturday, mr. prigozhin lead his forces out of ukraine and into russia, they took control of the russian city of rostov-on-don. amazingly, the russian citizens of that city didn't seem to mind. civilians stood in line with the wagner group mercenaries waiting for coffee. it's not something you see during most armed rebellions. people in that city continue to carry out everyday tasks like street sweeping. tanks rolled down their streets. the wagner group eventually took over a russian military headquarters and then they began to march toward the city of moscow. president putin went on russian state tv to declare this

uprising, this march unarmed mutiny, he accused prigozhin of treason, and then vladimir putin sort of disappeared. nobody has seen him since. wagner group forces made it within 134 miles of moscow. the situation shifted abruptly once again. alexander lukashenko. the authoritarian leader of belarus, he announced that he brokered a deal between prigozhin's forces and putin's government to end the standoff. the wagner forces advancing on moscow were reversed their course. prigozhin and his man evacuated the military headquarters in rostov-on-don. they had been just getting coffee a few hours earlier. a deal is reached to allow prigozhin to flee to belarus and civilians cheered for prigozhin. they shook his hand. they took selfies with him as he departed. but nobody has heard from prigozhin since then either. in the middle of all this

president biden has been working the phones speaking with leaders of germany and france in the uk and vowing continue support for ukraine, amid all of this chaos. ukrainian president zelenskyy pointed to all of this as a sign of russia's weakness amid putin's ongoing invasion of his country. the secretary of state anthony blinken echoed that same sentiment in an interview on meet the press. >> >> what we've seen, russia having to defend moscow and its capital against mercenaries of its own making. and of itself, that's extraordinary. in so doing we've also seen a rise to the surface, profound questions about the very premises through this russian that prigozhin surface very publicly as well as a direct challenge to putin's authority. i think we've seen more cracks emerge in the russian facade. >> there are lots of questions here. what's in putin's next move and

how does it affect the war in ukraine where wagner forces played a key role and what happens to prigozhin and how long is he allowed to remain alive in exile? also, now that someone's broke in the steel, does anyone else want to try their hand at an armed rebellion? joining us now, ben rhodes former deputy national security adviser to president obama obama, and an msnbc contributor, masha gessen, the staff writer of surviving autocracy. ben, what just happened here? it has been a whirlwind weekend >>. it's very hard for someone like me and a lot of people to make sense of exactly where we are. >> well, we are in new and uncharted territory. the reality, alex, this has kind of been building for months. the wagner forces, up to 25,000 people under arms. they were on the frontlines in the ukrainian city of bakhmut. they were grinding it out day after day in the most brutal fighting of the war.

prigozhin increasingly was taking aim at the russian military high command. particularly under the -- he was saying they were hanging the forces to. dry they weren't providing with ammunition or cover. threatening all kinds of things towards russian military on command. now the way putin has set up the regime, he's had this kind of competing and corrupt the thumb. prigozhin is corrupt. there are other war lords. their provincial leaders. but we have not seen thus far is somebody standing up from within the structure and taking on the center of power of vladimir putin. so, what's happened in the last 48 hours, for the first time in putin's 23 years of being a dominant force in russian, politics you had someone essentially declare that the emperor has no clothes. i'm going to take him. on i'm going to march with my forces. the city's rostov that he took over briefly, this is not a small city. it's over 1 million people. it's also the main logistics hub for the war in ukraine. so, he was also kind of paralyzing their capacity to

run down into the war in ukraine. so, now there's been a de-escalation. there's been this partial resolution for the time being. i think everybody in russia vladimir putin go on television and say this guy is in the community. he has to be detained. they were putting out threats. he was going to be thrown in prison. just the fact that they even let prigozhin for the time being off here into belarus. that's not what putin told his own people he was going to do. so russians are feeling the war coming home into their internal politics in a way they haven't before. i think now we know that russia and its political stability is a part of the war in ukraine. >> as elementary as this may sound, ben, you sound very definitive in believing this is directed at putin. this is an attempt at putin's ouster. now, we are careful about the language used to describe this, right? we are not using the word coup. we're using the word military rebellion. armed rebellion. revolt. to some, people still unclear

whether this was directed specifically at putin or whether it was, as prigozhin himself would say, more directed at military top laughs, including short i sure you, no one has heard from since this all began. you seem certain that this is a man turning on his former patron. >> i want to be clear, nobody knows exactly what's happening. i don't think vladimir putin knows exactly what has happened. i don't think that prigozhin knows everything that just happened. he may have been testing to see whether other people joined with him. the fact that there is so much uncertainty, that is the point, i think the point is that putin has tried to create this or a invincibility. whether or not prigozhin actually thought that he was going to take power -- it doesn't matter. it shows the cracks of the facade. around the admissibility of putin. and that's why we're in a new state here where all the players and russia are no wondering, hey how, much control does putin have?

the system that he is set, up again, these different thief times, these different players jockeying for his favor, nobody quite knows what happens now. so, even though we don't necessarily know exactly what prigozhin's endgame was, was a scene latching out, we still are in a new era in russian politics? >> in terms of the view from russia, masha, and what russian citizens make of all of this, how are you understanding this moment? >> how much fear should there be in russia that are wounded putin is a more dangerous putin? >> well, let's be perfectly clear nobody knows what russian citizens think about all of this including russian citizens. you can't have opinions in this totalitarian society you never have enough information. you never have enough ability to talk with other people in order to be able to form opinions and to form politics. i'm going to disagree with dana

little bit i don't think this was a rebellion directed toward putin. i think prigozhin sincerely and politically held to the narrative that i putin is making bad decisions it's because he's l informed and he was going to march with this man through all of russia. it is a medieval way inform putin so he would then fire the minister of defense and create order. he found himself, once he started shooting down russian army helicopters he found himself in a coup that he didn't need to start. it was a de facto coup, in that i think it allowed lukashenko to negotiate with him. i will agree with van, that this is the biggest opening that we have seen in the sense that we have been 23 years there's been one political actor in russia and that political actor is the person

who controls the armed forces and now it's not so clear there is room for somebody else to act violently there is room for somebody else to wield an army and there is room for somebody else to act politically. that's a huge change we've not seen. >> masha, i'm just wondering, as a russian, is your feeling in this moment one of guarded optimism is it trepidation? just because so much is uncertain i wonder how your emotionally looking toward the immediate future? i would not call anything that i'm feeling optimism. prigozhin is a monster. anybody who latches on to his criticism of the pretenses of which the war in ukraine was unleashed and sees some glimmer

of liberalism, that's dead wrong, prigozhin is certainly, you know just an absolutely monstrous and violent figure who we know has killed many people. who we know >> and at the same u know i have been waiting for years for an end to the putin regime. if the putin regime ends with something other than the death of vladimir putin it will be something like this it will be some ridiculous perhaps unintended coup that ultimately succeeds and this is the biggest crack in the power putin so far and for russia i'll be very hard-pressed to say that's good news but it is a crack in putin's power the immediate after that is it's going to be a crackdown and there's no way that putin is not going to react to this by cracking down even further, primarily on russians accessed

information. >> ben, you've written so brilliantly about opposition figures fighting against autocrats and i wonder what you think this moment signals for opposition thing goes singers like -- who is currently in prison in russia, whether you know you're looking at this moment with any dose of optimism or expectation even. >> i agree with masha that whose, awful been brilliantly -- that it's hard to feel optimistic given the nature of russian society right now. i think this what this shows is if you do talk to navalny what they will always say is that putin is not permanent and something is going to be gone and whether that's in one year or five, years or ten years, whether that's because he is killed or dies or whether that's because someone moves them. and i think what this does signal is to the russian people, despite all their confusion and despite the fact they don't have all the information that this is not permanent.

the reason i do think that ultimately this is a challenge to putin's authority no matter what prigozhin's intentions were is that putin who's trying to lay low, he doesn't come out and bury the war. he had to go on television and say somebody is engaged in immunity and that was something that all russians saw and so for the first time, russians are seeing their own leader having to say one of my guys when my guys who's been a trusted lieutenant in line for a long time it is engaged in our mutiny against me. the whole world saw that to the chinese saw it. all the countries that even sitting on the fence in this war saw it and the russian opposition did indeed see that masha has written brilliantly about this, part of what italian leader wants to do is make people think nothing will ever change it's not even worth believing that anything can change for at least 24 hours the russian people were led to believe that maybe something is changing whether they liked it

or not and that does signal to people that russia's political future is a part of the war in ukraine. it's not just ukraine's future, it is vladimir putin's regime. it is an accidental issue for them just it is as for the ukrainian people. and that's the new world that we're in. >> the fact they are saying the world russia and change on the same substance is not something that's happened in a very long time. >> marcia ngassam, thank you for joining us is moving, ben rhodes i'm going to ask you to stick around for the entire hour, up next, what about the warren? ukraine wagner mercenaries have been key to russia's fighting forces, what is putin doing now, we're going to go to kyiv, how can west respond we will speak to a member of the house armed services committee saying -- committee saying -- unlike some others, neuriva plus is a multitasker supporting 6 key indicators of brain health. to help keep me sharp. neuriva: think bigger.

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inch closer to moscow yesterday during the short-lived armed rebellion, fighting raged on in ukraine.

today, ukrainian authorities reported five dead in more than a dozen injured and overnight airstrikes on kyiv. emergency workers there spent the day sifting through the rubble to search for people who might be trapped beneath the debris. kyiv was one of several ukrainian cities hit by airstrikes yesterday. ukrainian officials say russian missiles also targeted dnipro, kharkiv and kherson. wounding and killing people on the ground. ukraine is now entering its 17th month of war. battling to maintain independence from russian invaders. while the country continues to fight with an onslaught of russian attacks, ukraine is pressing forward to retake its land. ukraine's deputy defense minister says ukrainian troops launched a multi foreign offensive and the russian controlled donetsk region, including around bakhmut which was captured last month. the longest battle of the war today to buy the wagner group. the same group behind this weekend's armed rebellion, it devastated the city of bakhmut. reportedly torturing soldiers

and killing civilians including children. now that wagner forces have learned they've left bakhmut and instead it focused on revolting against russian leadership, what does that mean for ukraine's war strategy joining us now from kyiv is nbc news foreign correspondent raf sanchez thank you for joining us tonight we know that ukrainian president zelenskyy says he spoke with president biden about the course of hostilities and the processes taking place and russia can you tell us anything more about that call and how people are reading that statement? >> yeah, alex for starters it was one of several calls between kyiv and washington over the last 48 hours. the president spoke but also defense secretary lloyd austin spoke to his ukrainian counterpart earlier today and general milley the chairman of the toughest bat foes yesterday to his ukrainian counterpart and these are conversations at

all levels of government. its military intelligence agency to intelligence agency and in terms of the conversation between biden and zelenskyy so, then ski called it a positive and inspiring conversation and he thanked president biden for american military supplies, especially alex the patriot missile batteries which are defending the skies of kyiv and other cities from the missile strikes like the one you mentioned, it struck in the early hours of saturday morning killing five people here. they also talked about what is going on inside of russia. neither readout gave a lot of detail about what was discussed. it's been interesting watching how the two presidents have dealt with this differently. it zelenskyy over the weekend has been very vocal talking a lot about what's happening inside russia, taunting vladimir putin for disappearing from moscow and his, words. he's from the east of ukraine and russia is his native language and he was directly addressing russian soldiers in

russian saying, listen here leaders don't care about you, they're fighting amongst themselves while you are being asked to fight and die in the trenches here. and that kind of taunting and bravado is not really an option for president biden where that he likes it or not. vladimir putin's appear of his as a leader of another nuclear arms nation. and it's been very noticeable of president biden has been at camp david huddling with his national security officials he has not appeared in front of the cameras. he's not offering any type of commentary about what is going on inside of russia. in the biden administration they are very cautious not to be seen to be cheering for instability inside the country that owns about half of the world's nuclear warheads not to be seen to be cheering for the boss mercenary group which is a group that is sanctioned by the united states so those presidents watching what's happening in russia very closely by taking two different approaches. >> thank you for your time tonight. please get some sleep you have

been up all night and we deeply appreciate it. joining us now is michael mcfaul the united states. ambassador to russia, current msnbc international affairs analyst. thank you for being with us, mike. >> how are you, if you are advising president zelenskyy in this moment looking at a potentially wounded metaphorically speaking vladimir putin what would you advise him in this crisis moment. >> what he's saying to the russian soldiers is exactly right geno also saying? that prigozhin, i think this idea of undermining the morale of the soldiers on the battlefield not those in moscow or their commanders but to those soldiers, saying hey why are you here, your commanders back home are fighting amongst each other your top commanders, general gerasimov didn't have the guts to take on these rebels these traders but he

wants you to die here, that kind of messaging is very important right now. that's exactly what i would be doing a fire president zelenskyy. >> do you make anything in fact we haven't seen in the top two military commanders? >> too early to tell. there is tons of speculation out there. that was part of the deal. they would be removed and return from prigozhin going into exile. i will believe it when i see it. i'm skeptical that would happen. maybe putin might remove them sometime. but not immediately. if you did that that would be a concession to prigozhin. and he's already made incredible concessions to a guy he just called a traitor hours before. i can't imagine he'd want to dig deeper into that hole that he's in right now. >> someone who knows putin as a political animal what's your assessment about how greatly this damage is to his

leadership in russia. >> it's a big. damage that they're going to spin it that everything was under control and they had this negotiation. let's face it. when you have armed forces getting ready to fight each other russians are all washing this on telegram this is not being censored out. maybe it will like marsha gas and said earlier in the program. maybe that is what is to come next but they all watch this in any way you spin it it makes putin look weak. now, here's a way to recover. how we deal with prigozhin is some hints to that. i'd be very surprised if he allowed prigozhin to become a political actor and to continue to put mexicans on telegram i would not even be surprised if sometime down the road if something happened to prigozhin physically. he can also try to do something on the battlefield but right now he looks weak in front of everybody inside russia. >> just in terms as as our nbc reporter was just outlining, there are two different

communication strategies coming from ukraine and washington. biden is very clearly not wanting to get in front of the cameras on this for a number of reasons. zelenskyy is very, you know publicly topping about his conversations with the west as a former u.s. ambassador, what guidance would you offer biden in this moment as he has to navigate various factions in a pretty complicated and shifting diplomatic moment to be use of it -- >> i'd say three things. one, don't talk at all about what happened inside russia. that is good. that is wise and you don't want to get into that. two, take the message of putin's weakness to a lot of the fence-sitters. she isn't paying first and foremost say quietly and diplomatic channels is this really the guy that you want to be standing with he's a weak leader. chaos in russia will continue as long as the war in ukraine continues. maybe it's time for you to lean on your buddy vladimir putin to shut this all down and then

three, we should not talk about it. on your program and on many conversations throughout this war we've always talked about escalation and putin is in the corner right in the corner he needs to save his face and we can't do this if you can't do that because he has seen that as an escalatory step. well, putin played a game of chicken with prigozhin over the weekend and you know what? he did not double down he did not escalate. he capitulated and i think that is a really important message for everyone to understand that, yes we have to worry about escalation. most certainly when it comes to nuclear weapons. there is an alternative way to end this war. and that's for putin to feel like he is losing. so, rather than pulling back and this kind of a current incremental support for zelenskyy i would hope that president biden would look at this event and doubled down in his support. >> we shall see what happens. michael mcfaul, always great to speak with you and thank you

for your time and expertise as always. up, next they call him putin's chef. how did prigozhin go from a hotdog stand to try to march on moscow. that is next and it turns out that the u.s. may have known about prigozhin's plans before putin did and we'll have more on that. stay with us. with us ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ [city ambience sounds] [car screech] [car door slam] [camera shutter sfx] introducing ned's plaque psoriasis. [camera shutter sfx] he thinks his flaky, red patches are all people see. otezla is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis. [ned?] it can help you get clearer skin and reduce itching and flaking. with no routine blood tests required. doctors have been prescribing

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nice iphone. cute couple. trips don't last forever, neither does summer love. so, sadie is moving on. apple music, check! introducing myplan. the first and only unlimited plan to give you exactly what you want, so you only pay for what you need. act now and get iphone 14 pro max on us when you switch. it's your verizon. how did this man go from serving russian president vladimir putin, his dinner, attempts serving him dinner to thinking he was powerful enough to leave a military rebellion. well, prigozhin spent almost the entirety of the 19 80s in prison for robbery and theft. by the time he got out in the early 1990s, russia was in transition. it was becoming a new country. while other oligarchs were taking over commodity industries like oil and aluminum, prigozhin focus mainly on food.

he went from selling hot dogs to running grocery stores to opening high and restaurants. restaurants that serve world leaders, like vladimir putin and directly bush, scene right there. it was that will, being putin's chef, that got to mr. prigozhin his fortune. biden gave prigozhin beginners loans. so prigozhin can open factories that, for more than a decade, have made school lunches for almost all of the public schools in moscow. that gave way to more government contracts. until eventually prigozhin was not just feeling schoolchildren, and was feeding the military as well. those very lucrative government contracts did not come for free. putin expected more than just food in return for the government's money. the first time russia invaded ukraine in 2014, russian-backed separatists in eastern ukraine had a mysteriously well-trained group backing them. we now know that was the first appearance of the wagner group,

yevgeny prigozhin's private mercenary army. in exchange for all of those generous government contracts, prigozhin gave putin the gift of plausible deniability. a private army that technically isn't connected to the russian government, one that could still achieve putin's military goals abroad. now, private armies are illegal in russia. the wagner group literally recruits via billboards that are put up around the country. that is one of them. the group is known for its work in syria fighting in the civil war there, even attacking u.s. forces. wagner is known for its work in about half a dozen countries in africa doing everything from fighting to securing mines and oil fields, to training local insurgent groups that support russia. the wagner group is also known for its gross human rights abuses like killing civilians by the hundreds, and burying them and mass graves and brutally executing deserters and its own ranks. now, prigozhin did putin's

dirty work off the battlefield as well as on it. do you remember, for, example of the internet research agency? it was the russian troll farm that was run out of this completely nondescript office building down at st. petersburg. it was fake accounts like that one to spread disinformation and to try to swing the 2016 presidential election for donald trump. again, this wasn't vladimir putin directly, it was certainly what vladimir putin wanted. again, it was give getty prigozhin giving vladimir putin plausible deniability. prigozhin was basically one of putin's fixers. so, when putin needed help and as more of aggression in ukraine, once again, he turned to yevgeny prigozhin and his private army. the wagner group of what some of the toughest battles in the war so far on behalf of russia. the group suffered incredible casualties and prigozhin himself became an outspoken critic of how putin's generals were running the war in ukraine. so, on some, level prigozhin's

anger here toward russian military leadership, toward putin himself, to some degree that make sense. the motivation behind leading this armed rebellion. how does someone who has such an intimate knowledge of russia's military and intelligence apparatus, how does he think he have what it took to revolt against putin's government on a friday and then just turn around and hightail it in the other direction on a saturday? what made you johnny prigozhin change his mind? here with us again, ben rhodes, former deputy national security adviser to president obama. ben, i know you don't know conclusively, do you have a suspicion about what happened here? he's 134 miles outside moscow. he knows how it all works. the military intelligence, he turns around, he's now -- >> there are a few things yet to keep in mind.

first of all, not too early -- to make a run at the threat of russia. second of all, prigozhin really came to a degree of prestige in the last several years. he was the tip of the spear for a lot of lattimer pond top priorities. the election interference, the war in syria and getting influence to national resources and africa. he would've felt his own prestige growing up. he was not just an, oligarchy's got his own army. the irony of, this par the reason that putin has a cut up is like this, that viability. it's also because he doesn't want his own military and intelligence services to get too strong on their own so they would take a shot at him. too >> look what happened. i think prigozhin felt like he had this growing prestige. in the war, what happened? they thought they were hanging him out to dry. he thought that they were letting his men get chewed up in a meat grinder in places like bakhmut. they were starving. that they saw an opportunity, people like show you, that minister defends to weaken him. so, i think he felt compelled

to stand up for himself. hey, i'm the big player. i delivered you this in syria. i delivered all these. things i delivered a little action interference. and now of i may have to drive in the battlefield. if i don't stand up now and make a run at this, i'm ultimately going to get chewed up. all my guys are going to get chewed up in ukraine. by these incompetent people in the ministry of defense. , so i think it's both his beef with the ministry of defense and people actually go and also the sense that he had of some invincibility. wagner has said something about a winning streak in recent years. he took his shot. >> i will say, there's some nbc news reporter that wagner group mercenaries are not happy about prigozhin turning tail. they feel like they've been portrayed by him. when you talk about a rock and hard, place it is going to be grindr or potentially betrayer troops as you try to save our own life. that is where prigozhin is. rock and hard place. that's a better. is ben, don't leave. please, stay with us, we have more coming up next. including what the troubles in russia mean for the united

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exposed the fractures within putin's russia. they've also illustrated something. alice the relative strength of u.s. intelligence. although wagner chief you're ghani prigozhin did not call for an armed uprising until friday, senior biden administration officials were briefed days earlier on wednesday about intelligence

indicating that prigozhin was considering a military rebellion. by thursday, intelligence officials also formed a small group of house and senate leaders known as the gang of eight, a source tells nbc news that u.s. spy agencies observed the wagner group amassing horses and weapons that that proposal was poised to make a move. as the new york times reports the information shows that the united states was aware of and pending events in russia. similar to how intelligence agencies had warned in late 2021 that putin was planning to invade ukraine. unlike what the initial invasion, when u.s. officials declassified the intelligence and then released it to try to deter putin from invading, intelligence agencies this time kept silent about mr. prigozhin's plans. let's bring into the conversation arizona democratic congressman ruben gallego he sits on the armed services committee and is iraq war veteran. congressman gallego thank you for joining me this evening. i think a lot of us were fairly shocked to hear this reporting

that congress knew a select group of members nonetheless the u.s. congress had a sense that this might be coming maybe even presumably before vladimir putin and what was your reaction to hearing about the congressional element of all this? >> look i'm not surprised, number, one through all public sources you can tell that there was a rift happening between the wagner group and that minister of defense. it had been going on for quite a while you saw that going on in the first couple months in bakhmut and this was something that was building up number two because we have intelligence it doesn't mean that we want to share intelligence. we have to understand what the angle of this is at the end of the day and we share this intelligence like we did prior to the invasion of ukraine. there would've been some elements of the russian media and other allies who would try to spin this as being somehow a operation done by the cia. so a lot on this takes its

nature, it was a very smart move by the cia by our intelligence services and by the president as well as the gang of eight there other times where you do share intel, and sought prior to the ukraine invasion a lot of us were very involved with this. i travel to ukraine with a delegation to talk to the ukrainian government prior to the invasion making sure they understood how serious the intel as. and that was designed to put things together to stop an invasion. again, sometimes you have to use intel properly. the white house used intel in the proper way. >> as someone who understands the nsa and what happens in the situation room, all the mechanics of foreign policy and intelligence gathering, is it possible, the wall street journal reports this that the u.s. intelligence community would know more about what was on vladimir putin's horizon

than the kremlin? >>, i have to think that the kremlin and the russian district defense had some indication of what was going on this was in a crowded battle space, there's a lot of intelligence happening. i'm sure that the ukrainian intelligence services had some idea of what was happening. as congressman gallego said this has been building for a while i think the u.s. intelligence committee in addition to congressman guy was good point that they don't want to be seen to be like playing in a russian area that the west is still behind some, uprising some rebellion we still don't know exactly what the endgame here was and you don't want to go out and narrate events when you actually don't know where those events are going. , now before the war, we knew russia was going to invade. we knew what we are looking at where it was leading. we might have seen all kinds of indication that they're about to make a play but i don't think that they likely understood exactly what the n state was. and so i think the right thing to do, and form the right people and get ready you saw a

lot of cancel travel the joint chiefs diego he canceled a trip to the middle east, he channeled a kick to europe. clearly they wanted to be in a situation, they were monitoring, this they were consulting with ukrainians and allies. like everybody else i don't know that they knew exactly where this was going to lead. >> just to talk about how they got this intelligence, it sounds like at least in the reporting that we had that these are not necessarily high-level sources that military sources they're getting this intelligence from it could be lower level recruits within the russian army or even the wagner group who don't have encrypted communications who are using the same sort of technology to mask their messages in their communications. >> there are several ways. they're just kind of watching overhead, what are the fighters doing and what are they amassing. two, in a military, space there's a lot of people on the phone. and not all of them are doing in a secure way. there is a vast trove of information that's being collected by the americans and the ukrainians in terms of communication between people. and then their human sources.

i'm sure the u.s. and the ukrainians certainly probably have people on the other side of the front lines are reporting back with what's happening. there's a huge influx of information and it's how do you evaluate the information what you do with it and clearly they evaluated that something was about to happen and they decided this is an internal issue in russia and we're not going to be the narrator on this one. the same way that we were before the war because we don't know exactly where this is leading. >> congressman, given the weakness that we are seeing from putin and that there is a lot of analysis about what this is in terms of his future do you think that this change is any of the political dynamics inside of congress vis-à-vis the warning grain, republicans, your colleagues they have not been particularly supportive of the war in recent months. they have been strangely and weirdly in questionably supportive of vladimir putin in a way. does this change, do you is this a signal moment in terms of this dynamic? >> look. the most important message that you can stand is that putin is

weak and russia is weak the thing that they want the most is for us to lose interest in ukraine and for russia to be able to wait us out and now we know that russia actually is on a smaller timetable and that putin is basically hanging on by a thread and he's no longer the strongest man in russia. a third world rate power in belarus had to negotiate a peace treaty for him and at the end of the day right now we actually don't know who is in charge of russia one of the arguments that we can all make to our republican friends who are being more hesitant about funding ukraine, we are doing very well. what we know right now is that ukraine is more in solidarity in terms of their sovereignty than russia so we need to do is double down. we need to give ukraine the weapons and the backing they need to finish this war. they will get their sovereignty back. at the same time defeat russia and potentially push putin out. those are two when winds at the same time and this argument that russia is a stronger and

stronger position when it comes to ukraine is no longer valid. so, for those of you who are actually potentially on the sidelines saying that we have to start tailoring and tampering down our support of this war, now the argument is no longer valid and we can win this war ukraine can win this war russia can and putin is not fully in control. >> congressman ruben gallego thank you very much for your time this evening. we will have more of our special coverage of the crisis in russia when we turn after the break. k. mm. ...a "chow down" day... a "take a big bite" day... a "perfectly delicious" day... - mm. [ chuckles ] - ...a "love my new teeth" day. because your clearchoice day is the day everything is back on the menu. a clearchoice day changes every day. schedule a free consultation.

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the white house this evening after a weekend trip to camp david where he was kept up to date on the crisis in russia as events unfolded. the president very noticeably did not issue any public statements about the short-lived rebellion that threatened global stability and vladimir putin's hold on power. a white house official speaking on the condition of anonymity told msnbc news that the reason for the silence of biden's his belief that putin would point to any white house statement as proof that the united states was orchestrating an uprising. is it a foregone conclusion that putin is eventually gonna point fingers at the west? >> yes, he will say that this is part of an effort to undermine russia and its stability that only he can be the guarantor of russian stability. here's the problem that, this is not a bunch of middle class students in moscow rising up. nobody thinks that yevgeny prigozhin is a u.s. asset. this guy is an antagonist of the united states.

so, putin can say that, he can gin up the meeting machines say that, while he said, that he is going to be looking over the shoulder, who's the next person they're going to run on me? and while he's going to say, that was going to be discussions on russian telegram and russian houses about what did we just see? where is this all going? i think that is the question that remains to be seen in the coming weeks and months. >> you cannot undo the remarks that he had to make on saturday. you >> can't make people on see. that >> ben rhodes, thank you for drinking sparkling water on this last day of your weekend to do an hour of television with me. i deeply insincere you appreciate your analysis in all this. that is it for the special sunday night addition of the show. stay tuned for msnbc continuing coverage of the crisis in russia, coming up after a break, a special sunday edition of the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle. tephanie ruhle our heritage is ingrained in our skin.

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ruhle. our coverage of the crisis and russia continues with a special addition of the 11th hour. it is now five a.m. on monday morning in moscow. a new week beginning with the nation on edge after the world witnessed an extraordinary