tiktok in the commercial break. you can actually see it. yeah, and hi, everybody. for real. if you ever want to join us on social, you can go online with whatever you use. for example, @ari melber on tiktok or facebook or instagram or twitter. or you can always connect with me @arimelber.com. and just keep it locked on msnbc. i'll see you tomorrow at 6:00 p.m. it's about to be 7:00 p.m. and "the reidout" with joy reid is up next. tonight on "the reidout" -- >> i should like to thank those commanders and soldiers of the wagner private company who took the right decision to stop and go back and prevent bloodshed.

>> russia in crisis. the weekend mutiny by russian mercenaries exposes putin's vulnerability, forcing him to cut a deal with the man he had called a traitor just hours before. that man, hot dog vendor turned war lord yevgeny prigozhin was apparently allowed to flee to belarus. we're going to take a deep dive into what happens next for him and his wagner group. and it's becoming increasingly clear that republican voters don't care how corrupt their candidates are. donald trump's lead is actually growing in the crowded republican presidential field. make that make sense. but we begin tonight with a wild weekend in the unprecedented challenge to more than two decades of vladimir putin's grip on russia. the armed rebellion has ended, but the uncertainty it sparked continues. the russian war lord behind that attempted insurrection. wagner group leader yevgeny prigozhin remains out of sight,

but he released an audio message today, claiming he wasn't seeking to overthrow putin. he calls it a protest. but he renewed his criticism of russia's military, saying his weekend march was a master class on how russia should have carried out its invasion of ukraine. his rebellion began late friday after prigozhin released audio and video messages claiming putin's invasion of ukraine was based on a lie. he then slammed defense minister sergei shoigu, accusing him of ordering an air strike on wagner forces. by saturday morning, the wagner paramilitary troops had moved east from ukraine into russia and the city of rostov-on-don, the key southern military command center before pushing north toward moscow. prigozhin was last seen in public late saturday, leaving rostov-on-don after he called an end to the uprising and turned back the soldiers he'd sent marching to within 125 miles of

the russian capital. under a deal to end the revolt announced by the kremlin, prigozhin would go to neighboring belarus, where he and his soldiers would receive amnesty, and charges against him would be dropped. but according to russian media reports, the case against prigozhin for mounting a rebellion remains open. in his first public appearance since saturday, vladimir putin praised the rank and file wagner mercenaries, but attacked their leader without naming him. >> the organizers of this rebellion cannot but understand that they will be brought to justice. everybody understands that. this is criminal activity, which is aimed at weakening the country, which -- and this was a colossal threat. >> putin followed up with a televised meeting with his defense and security chiefs, including defense minister shoigu, the target of

prigozhin's criticisms. but despite putin's attempt at showing strength, the weekend rebellion has raised major questions about both his grip on power and the ongoing war in ukraine. today putin blamed ukraine and the west for the uprising, say it is what his international opponents wanted. president biden, meanwhile, addressing the situation for the first time today, stressed that the u.s. and western allies had nothing to do with prigozhin's mutiny. >> we gave putin no excuse to blame this on the west or to blame this on nato. we made clear that we were not involved. we had nothing to do with it. this was part of a struggle within russian system. >> president biden said he'd spoken at length with ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy, who in his own video addressed -- own video address over the weekend said russia's internal turmoil only exposed putin's weakness. >> translator: today the world saw that the bosses in russia do

not control anything, nothing at all. complete chaos, complete absence of any predictability. i'll say it in russian. the man from the kremlin is obviously very afraid and probably hiding somewhere, not showing himself. i am sure that he is no longer in moscow. he knows what he is afraid of because he himself created this threat, all evil, all losses, all hatred he himself who spreads it. >> wow. meanwhile, prigozhin's mutiny also raises uncertainty about whether wagner soldiers will remain a force on the battlefield in ukraine. with analysts saying the ukrainian military may be able to capitalize on the chaos in weakening russian morale to make gains. joining me now from kyiv, ukraine is msnbc chief correspondent alali velshi. it is always great to talk to you. this is fascinating. you now have the monster turning

on the master. how is that playing out in ukraine? >> in a few different ways. but mostly, ukrainians are sitting there thing it's probably good for them that their oppressor, their invader is in some chaos. it's not clear, though, if you are a ukrainian, just like if you were a pro-democracy russian, that prigozhin was going to be a better option than putin. in fact, prigozhin's criticism of the russian army is that it didn't do enough, it's not brutal enough in its war. it's not effective enough in its war. so he wanted a bigger, a more effective war in ukraine. so ukrainians are happy about a few things. a, there is a crack in the armor in russia. something that they always believed to be the case. b, those wagner fighters are mostly not in russia anymore. most of them are gone. c, prigozhin, who was really the tip of the spear in terms of the russian invasion here, in terms of the ground war that was going on in the east, obviously he has nothing to do with the missiles

that rained down on kyiv and the drones, but in terms of the ground war that had drawn out to that a stalemate, that was prigozhin and his men. the reason bakhmut took so long to recapture was buzz of prigozhin and his men. very interesting that putin has now accused prigozhin and his men of being failures in russia, saying this was an effort to cover up their failure. the in-fighting in russia generally speaking is seen as good for ukraine. there is one exception, and that is when a strong man is attacked. when a strong man is shown to be weak, what do they then do? in the case of erdogan in turkey, when there was an attempted coup against him, he took that as an opportunity to become more autocratic. putin is already autocratic. what does he do? does he rain terror on ukraine to prove he is as tough as he is? generally speaking, they're a few weeks into the spring counteroffensive. they've reclaimed about 130 kilometers of land. it's about ten villages or hamlets, but they're making forward progress and they were

feeling good about that forward progress by last week. and now this has happened. so it tends to be having an energizing effect on ukrainians, and mostly those ukrainian troops who have really not just republican on western and nato weapons and ammunition, but they have run on their own morale and support in their own country. and that is bolstered today. so for the moment, it's very early to tell. it's early innings in this. but ukrainians are feeling better than they were last week about the fact that something is very wrong in russia. >> yeah. i got to imagine it feels pretty good that the fighters who were actually the most lethal and most effective, they bounced out of there and i know they have disorganized, incompetent low morale russian troops left. i just listening to zelenskyy, they thought they could take him. you'll be on later. the hardest working man in showbiz is ali velshi 8:00 p.m. live from ukraine, from kyiv.

thank you, my friend. stay safe. >> thank you. >> thank you. and it's called "russia in crisis." be sure to watch that. let's bring in former cia director john brennan, msnbc senior, national security analyst, also friend of the show. the question that i am dying to ask you, sir, is what did the cia know and when did they know it? there is, you know, a sense that there was some understanding inside the u.s., inside the cia that something was up with the wagner group vis-a-vis russia. to your understanding, is this something that the cia would have known about? and what would they have wanted it to happen? is this something where the u.s. was rooting for a coup? >> well, i think, joy, that i'm pretty confident that the cia knew a lot more than you and i noe knew what was happening inside of russia and ukraine. and they were keeping president biden fully informed as developments were unfolding. i think we have to show a fair

amount of humility, and also what may happen. but what is very clear is that the situation i think is still very unsettled. it's very dynamic. and we don't know exactly what putin is going to do in order to try to regain control. because clearly, his very public admissions about this rebellion and the threat that it posed to the russian state is unprecedented. and so i think what he is trying to do is figure out now how he can preserve the military capabilities of the wagner group in ukraine and in other places while decapitating its leadership that clearly was engaged in this rebellion against moscow. but again, i still think we have a lot to learn about why prigozhin's forces turned back, what type of deal is struck, whether or not putin is going to follow through on any commitments he might have made in order to get prigozhin to stand down. i think the coming days are really going to give us a lot more sense of which way this is going to go. but we should make no mistake

about it. prigozhin is a warhawk. he is a bloodthirsty warhawk. and that is a threat to putin from his hard right wing. so there are a lot of scenarios here that can still unfold that are not going to be favorable i think to our national security interests. >> right. the reality is -- right. number one, two-part question for you. the system in one, can he possibly keep him alive or out of prison? he spoke out against the military operation, or whatever euphemism they used for it, said it was lie. he is also a threat. he has his own army, and it doesn't seem like putin controls it. he controls it. even though he is out of the country, is it possible he could even be left alive? that's number one. the second part is, if let's just say this coup would lead to another coup, who would fill that vacuum? we certainly don't want that guy running russia. see no better. >> well, prigozhin clearly became a cult-like figure, certainly within the wagner group.

which is why i think putin is not just going to eliminate him immediately, because i think he is trying to make sure that the wagner group which has played an important role in ukraine is going to remain a fighting force. but i don't think i think what prigozhin has done will ever be forgiven or forgotten by prigozhin. at the time he deems most appropriate. but if this rebellion was able to move into moscow and putin was pushed out, i think it's unclear exactly who would come to the fore. it probably would be somebody from the right wing of russian establishment. it would probably be a cabal initially. there are some individuals at the top who have been long-standing advisers and part of the inner circle of putin. but i think they recognize they're in the accountability bucket as well. so i don't think that one of those who are closest to putin would take over. it might be somebody from the

outside, outer ring, a military. but somebody who would be able to control the military service and services. that is so critically important. >> yeah. >> but i don't think we're at that point net. we may see it happening in the not too distant future. >> let's not forget they have nukes. let's read a very heroic man wrote a piece in "the washington post," an op-ed. and he talked about the west's own responsibility for some of what we have seen. when putin launched ever more active measures to dismantle, we thought the free world would express criticism. instead, american presidents of both parties applauded putin's rise, the architect of the western policy of embracing putin ignored two fundamental warnings from history, that internal repression in russia always translates into external aggressor, and appeasing an aggressor always leads to war. you can look at the timeline of the annexation of georgia during george w. bush during the attack on crimea during the obama administration to the invasion

of ukraine. they just have gotten worse and worse and worse. given the fact that now they are worse, terrible, unstable, and occupying a country that doesn't want them there, this looks like it just gets from bad to worse. what is the outlook that we should have on where russia goes in the next several years? it looks like it could become even more unstable and even more dangerous. >> well, i think it could. but also, i think we have to recognize the limits to our influence and ability to shape events. i understand what that individual is saying, but i think it is overstated that we have recognized that russia is a very big, powerful country that has a strategic nuclear weapons arsenal. we're not in the business of trying to shape politics from inside. look how difficult it was for us to try the get afghanistan on the right path or iraq on the right path. i think we have to be very, very aware that we have limited influence in terms of which way this is going to go, which is why president biden i think rightly pointed out that we had no role in this internal

combustion that is taking place in russia. i think we need to speak in favor of democratic values and principles. and those that are advocating of that in russia. i don't think we want to become the manipulate later and exploiter internally there of what's going on in the country. >> that's why we dig you, john brennan. you used to run the cia, but you have that humble let's not be out here trying to police the world attitude. i really like it. i think it's good to hear, and i love hearing that coming from you specifically, sir. john brennan, thank you very much. up next on "the reidout," from hot dog vendor to commander of one of the most powerful private armys on the planet, who exactly is yevgeny prigozhin? we will break it down when "the reidout" continues.

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at the center of this weekend's armed rebellion in russia is yevgeny prigozhin, who despite presenting perhaps the greatest threat to vladimir putin's regime than we've ever seen was at one point one of putin's closest allies. the two have quite the history. believe it or not, prigozhin was actually a hot dog salesman in the '90s after spending time in a soviet prison. years later he on the other hand several restaurants, including one in st. petersburg that was a favorite spot of a young ex-kgb spy named vladimir putin, which earned prigozhin to earn the nickname putin's chef. from there, prigozhin transformed from restauranteur to war lord in just a matter of

years. in 2014, he founded the wagner mercenary group as a way to support russian forces in the war in donbas. not too long after that, wagner began operating in other countries like syria, where they supported pro-government forces there, as well as several african countries. not only did prigozhin use his private army to prop up dictator, receiving gold and blood diamonds as a reward, but they were also accused of committing several human rights abuses. prigozhin also founded the bot farm that according to the justice department is responsible for sowing disinformation in the 2016 u.s. election. ultimately helping donald trump take the white house. and then last year, as putin's army struggled on the battlefield, wagner supported russia in its invasion of ukraine. prigozhin mainly recruited convicts, promising pardons in exchange for their service, which ultimately led to thousands of their deaths.

in the past few months, tensions began to increase when prigozhin went on several angry rants on the telegram app, taking aim at some of russia's top military generals for allegedly denying his fighters ammunition. that anger ultimately boiled over into the events that unfolded this weekend. joining me now is former cia chief of operations for europe and eurasia, and msnbc analyst. thank you so much for being here. i want to start from the basics here. the wagner group. apparently the name was inspired by the compose. >> although it has nothing to do with him, and i'm sure his family would like me to say that they operated basically -- can you explain how they were able to operate? russia doesn't have a second amendment. it's not like anybody can form a proud boys or oath keeper. explain how they were operating both inside and outside russia. >> joy, first of all, it's great to be here. i think you gave an excellent overview of the wagner group and

its history. sometimes people call the wagner group, you know, a private military contractors. this gives the aura of the old black water which provided security for u.s. force. it's far from that. the wagner group is in effect a proxy force for the kremlin. it's closely tied to russian military intelligence. and it really acts as kind of an overseas arm to do a lot of the dirty work that vladimir putin wants. and so what is of course interesting here is, you know, prigozhin, who is very close to putin, turned essentially into an oligarch running a paramilitary force, got too big for his britches. he is way ahead of his skis and there has obviously been a falling out. but the wagner group was certainly an arm of russian practice, of hybrid warfare, of operating in a gray zone. and it's particularly on countries such as africa, really had a tremendous amount of influence. >> well, the thing is what they

were known for is brutality, right? whether it was in african countries or syria or donbas. they were the ones helping take that part of ukraine that is abutted to russia, that's right next to russia that they really, really, really want, or crimea, looking at a map of it here. but what happens when a group like that, that is known for brutality, that has been operating basically, as you said, like a sort of side mini army that was helpful to the kremlin, if they turn on vladimir putin, can he still control those forces? or do they answer to prigozhin? >> this is such a great question. i'm going to give you the answer from what any intelligence officer is it depends. and frankly, there is a lot we have to say where we simply say we don't know. one of the things right now is what happens to the wagner forces, and whether you -- you hear all different types of answers, from 10,000 to 20 thousand to 30 thousand. where are they right now?

have they gone back to russia or ukraine? some of them, if you believe the kremlin, are being offered integration into the russian military if they sign a contract. that's going to be pretty difficult, of course. how do you integrate a military force that just days ago shot down and killed several russian air force pilots, destroyed some helicopters and transport aircraft? i'm not quite sure after the events of the last several days how they will integrate back in. they were very helpful in the past. again, as you noted, terrible brutality. this is not any kind of entity that the united states would be friendly with. prigozhin hates the west. but what's interesting now is what to do with an outfit, and that is for vladimir putin to decide of 20,000, 30,000 some battle-hardened fighters, some of them convicts. what do you do with them? that's going the key question as the days go by. >> the u.s. has a history of kind of looking the other way when bad guys are fighting other bad guys. i think about osama bin laden who was useful to the u.s. in

some ways, or the congolese government. bad by versus bad guy, let them fight. in this case, it somebody who got very close to moscow, was greeted like a liberator by regular russians who were crowding around his vehicle, treating him as some sort of a hero. if he starts to bring the message back in, there is some video of it, what the war in ukraine is a fraud, if he is vocalizing that, which by the way is a crime for which others vladimir and other heroic good guys have been put in prison, do you think that that starts to break putin's propaganda hold on the country? do people start saying wait a minute, if this guy says the war is bs, maybe it is bs. could we be seeing something that could be the beginning of the end of putin's control over russia, or even his

administration? >> well, first and foremost, prigozhin is a master on information operations. so we're talking about him running the wagner group as a paramilitary force. don't forget he ran the troll firm that interfered in our election. he is indicted as someone the u.s. government wants to bring to justice. i think there is a $250,000 reward for him. and so i mention this because he is very good with kind of propaganda, information operations. and the message that he is sending now is resonating. and the message is not necessarily that the u.s. or the ukrainians are the good guys. it's that the russian senior military leadership is corrupt. they don't know what they're doing. >> right. >> and he did say that he did puncture that hole in putin's narrative of why this war was being fought. joy, why does this really matter? to me, the state of fighting forces anywhere has 20 do with morale. now russian soldiers on the front lines in ukrainian, they follow these telegram channels.

that's in essence an app. so they're hearing prigozhin's message. and when morale breaks, it's really important to build for militaries. it's important to sustain. and once you lose it, it's very hard to regain that. i think that's the big question. why would russians want to die on the front lines? we know the ukrainian what they're doing. they're fighting for their country. so i think what we're looking for now is there going to be any cracks in russian morale which could be significant? i don't think this has any kind of -- i'm not concerned. i don't think putin would be concerned about the overall regime stability right now. >> right. >> he should be concerned about the credibility, the loyalty of the russian military. that's what he is going to focus on in the days ahead. and that's why, of course, he is trying to clip prigozhin's wings. >> yeah. you know, look, quoting from monster movie, let them fight. bad guy versus bad guy, let them

fight. thank you very much. really appreciate you being here. coming up, trump just can't stop himself from repeatedly confessing to committing federal crimes. that doesn't seem to be hurting him with his rabid fan base. more next. love you. have a good day, behave yourself. like she goes to work at three in the afternoon and sometimes gets off at midnight. she works a lot, a whole lot.

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i had every right to have

these documents, personal belongings in boxes. joe biden didn't. even mike pence didn't have that right. they weren't covered by the presidential records act. i was, because i was president. i'm probably the only person in history in this country that's been indicted and my numbers went up. >> wow. it has to be hard for his lawyers when donald trump keeps confessing to the crime. as we told you before, the twice impeached, twice indicted former president is wrong each time that he claims to have had the right to take classified documents from the white house. he didn't. however, he was correct that following the news of his second indictment, his lead grew over his republican presidential rivals, according to the latest nbc news polling. that may not be due to trump's strength. but actually to the degradation of the once grand old party that is the view of the conservative's conservative, former federal judge michael luttig, a short lister and an early mentor of senator ted cruz. in a "new york times" op said,

luttig writes "no assemblage of politicians except the republicans would ever conceive of running for the american presidency by running against the constitution and the rule of law, but that's exactly what they're planning. the stewards of the republican party have become so inured to their punitive leader that they have managed to convince themselves that an indicted and perhaps even convicted donald trump is the party's best hope for the future. but modeled on mr. trump's breathtakingly inane template is as ill served as ill-fated. if the indictment of mr. trump on espionage act charges not to mention his almost certain indictment for conspireing to obstruct congress from certifying mr. biden as president on january 6th continues to shake the political party from its moribund political senses, then it is beyond saving itself, nor ought it to be saved. joining me now is stuart stevens, senior adviser to the

lincoln project, and joyce vance, professor at the university of alabama school of law. i take it, stewart my friend, that you agree with mr. luttig. >> i think he is a little optimistic, actually. there is no other conclusion to come to but that the party isn't worth saving. nobody is forcing the republican party to support donald trump. there are a lot of other people out there. they want to support donald trump because donald trump best represents what they want to be. it is not a rule of law party. it is a party that is about shifting america from a democracy to an autocracy. and that may seem alarmist, part of the challenge of how to talk about this. but that's the absolute stone-cold truth. >> and you know, the thing, stewart, the way that donald trump speaks, he speaks like an vel, right? he was at the faith and freedom conference over the weekend getting cheered and lauded and saying i was indicted for you.

now the you in question did not steal classified documents or foment an insurrection. he did. that is like jesus language. as if what my body is being brain for you. he speaks like that. and let's be clear, his base are white evangelicals. they lap that up. and to the point where one evangelical leader had to come out and say no, no, it's jesus christ we worship. when you got say it, you know, this is worship, right? and i don't know how you break people out of something that is basically a religion. >> you know, this is a hallmark of autocrats. if you read a book strongman, they become the stake because there is no rule of law. there is just this person who will save us through chaos. and that's why there needs to be a constant and manufactured threat to america, be it the caravans crossing the border to the idea that these powerful forces out there like canada are threatening america. so only this person can save us.

it is a complete corruption of the american experiment. and if they're successful, it will be the end of the american experiment. >> i should say it is anti-jesus language. it is jesus in the bizarro world. all of this is happening in this weird context where donald trump's legal situation is getting worse and worse and worse. you had a couple of rulings. you had the seemingly very pro-trump judge, judge aileen cannon. she denied the special counsel. that's good news for journalists. i think we're for that. but it does seem like the case is hardening against him and more cases seem to be teague up. it isn't changing much. but on the legal front, things are getting worse, right? >> yeah, absolutely things are getting worse. and if you're the special counsel, if you're any of the other prosecutors looking at

trump, you're just lapping up these television appearances where he continues to confess sort of in slow motion, piling on a little more every time he appears on tv. you almost expect him at some point to say oh, and by the way, i still have more documents sitting in my bedroom or sock drawer, he has become so effusive about it. but to stewart's point, the real problem watching all of this is that you're considered an alarmist if you point out this is more than just the end of the republican party, that what the government really will end up putting on trial in this case is very much a republican party that has failed in any meaningful way to reel in trump, to reel in their support of trump, or the tell their base the truth, even at this late date, they still have the ability to say these allegations that the government is bringing are true. donald trump is not fit to be the leader of our party. and their lack of willingness to

do that is something that we should still consider shocking, even in an era where many of us think that we're past shock. >> the thing is, he is literally -- he is literally robbing his supporters. he has turned his path, which they think they're giving to his campaign. if you're paying his legal fees, y'all, this guy claimed he was a billionaire. we know he is not a billionaire, but he is real rich. yet the little guy, these people who worship and say they won't leave the home without a red hat, they're paying his legal fees. down the road, could that form other legal problems if he is not being honest about the way he is raising money? >> you know, it could. it's tough to know just from the bare bones reporting that we've seen so far. but this is clearly the sort of thing that requires further investigation to see if it's legal or not. it's interesting to recall that one of the few times his base has been upset with him was when he was doing this fundraising thing where it became an automatic monthly debit as

opposed to just a one-time thing. that was one of the few times he experienced pushback. you've got to wonder what will happen here. >> and stewart, i'm going give you the last word on this. chris christie got booed for telling the truth about trump. and he is at 5%. see somewhere. he is ahead of nikki haley and some of the others. but what does it say about the republican party that the next guy down is ron desantis, who is running the next openly fascist campaign i think i've ever seen. and i'm saying that, having covered donald trump running for president? that's the next guy down. >> yeah, i mean, i suppose if you're inside the desantis war room, you got think of a way to get yourself indicted to get up ahead of donald trump. you know, this just goes to my point that this is what the party wants to be. and it's a hard thing for a lot of us who worked in the party to accept, that we helped create this monster. but we did. and this is very purposeful by the party. but it's not something they

stumbled into. their second choice is a guy who is worse than trump. so it's a threat to what it means really to be an american. and i think we have to realize that. and address it accordingly. >> yeah. it is hard to believe this is the same party whose former leader, ronald reagan said open the borders. he literally said that this is a whole different party from that one. stuart stevens and joyce vance, thank you very much. coming up, wesley lowery joins me to talk about his new book "american whitelash." it seems apropos and the shameful violence that accompanies every advance in civil rights. it's lying dormant, waiting... and could reactivate. shingles strikes as a painful, blistering rash that can last for weeks. and it could wake at any time. think you're not at risk for shingles?

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without talking to your healthcare provider. common side effects were diarrhea, nausea, and headache. no matter where life takes you, biktarvy can go with you. talk to your healthcare provider today. if you listen to former u.n. ambassador and current republican presidential candidate nikki haley, whose father taught at an hbcu because white colleges wouldn't accept him as an indian immigrant and grew up to lead a state still flying the confederate flag while she was governor, america is not racist, it is blessed. if you listen to republican south carolina senator tim scott, another presidential candidate who before raphael warnock's election happens to be the first black senator from the south since reconstruction, there is no systemic racism. just racist individuals. america's relationship with race and racism and how we confront it lies at the very core of who we are as a country. it is a struggle, an ebb and

flow with surges. our history, a history that many republicans choose to ignore is littered with examples of that. hundreds of years of forced slavery came to the end after the gruesome and grinding civil war, which ushered in the period of black independence and reconstruction. but reconstruction, the brief period in american history when the federal government sought to secure and protect the legal rights of four million newly freed black people could not and would not last. that glimmer of hope came to a brutal and violent end during the jim crow era, where black freedom triggered white rage and violence marked by thousands of lynchings as white people lashed out at demands that black people be treated as equals. >> what they decide we still are going to fight for segregated schools. we'll boycott any school that is integrated. >> it started off with one every

and before the thing is over, you're invaded and the colored take over the schools and force the white children out. >> they say that all of this year what they call extremism has got go. i don't know anything wrong with being extremely right. it was the white people that have taken them out of the slums and have educated them, gave them what little education they've got. but remember, if you educate a dog, you've got an educated dog. >> that's some folks' grandparents. that period came to a legal end with the passage of the civil rights act of 1964. but true equality remained beyond reach. the election of barack obama as the first black u.s. president was viewed by some as racial reckoning and seemed to renew the hope that maybe white americans had come to terms with their own issues with race. unfortunately, obama's election seemed to reawaken america's long simmering and visceral disdain for change. you see, president obama was a direct undermining of the

centuries old status quo, which has always been embodied by white christian men. their grievances surged into public view with a seemingly unending stream of racist, anti-semitic, xenophobic attacks fueled bay blossoming social media and a ravenous conservative media. >> the silent thing that nobody is really talking about here is the reason that he was saying the -- >> which is. >> hussein, because the connotation is that barack obama is a muslim potentially. his father was a muslim. >> for several was the scene of intense drama, after police received reports of gunfire. >> we are treating this as a domestic terrorist incident. >> here's a funny thing we noticed the other day. people debate all the time about mass immigration. our leaders demand to be shut up and accept this. we have a moral obligation, even if it makes our own country poorer and dirtier and more divided.

>> the defendant stated, once inside the store, he opened fire using his ak-47, shooting multiple innocent victims. and here it is, that defendant stated his targets were, quote, mexicans. >> history doesn't repeat itself. i'm sure it does rhyme. many of the 2024 republican candidates seem to want to replicate the worst parts of our past. that is next. is next helps restore gum health, and rehardens enamel. i'm a big advocate of recommending things that i know work. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. now you get out there, and you make us proud, huh? ♪ bye, uncle limu. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need.

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whitelash, will it surprise winning journalist wesley lowery writes, light fears may be the defining force of our time, the undercurrent beneath the thrashing of our society, politics, and culture. as long as there are elements within our mainstream politics and media willing to cynically play to those fears, we can expect additional bursts of white racial violence. and wesley lowery joins me now. was, i have my copy of the book. i am in the midst of reading it now, it is excellent. talk about that, the threats of white violence, where are they coming from and why does it seem they are so intense now? >> of course, so glad to be here, joy. you know, i started working on this book not long after the election of donald trump, and i was trying to figure out what my next target would be, what i would be working on, what i'd be thinking about? i've been covering so much of the rise of the blm, the protest movements, and the obama years. and headline after headline on this beat was different than

what we've seen before. we were seeing nazis rallying at the inauguration. we were seeing a muslim attacked on a train in portland. finally the violence in charlottesville or pittsburgh, that we live synagogue, el paso, attack, after attack, after attack, it was very clear we were living in a moment of white racial grievance and whiteway shall violence. and so, as you laid out in the segment leading into this, i tried to go back to the history and try to place the moment we are living in a historical context, that every time there have been moments of perceived black racial advancement, what we've seen is a tug of war back from white supremacist forces that have met it with violence, right? when you look at this moment, you have a moment where we have lived through the election of a black president. we lived through a moment where immigration is demographically changing the country in a way that's never changed before. and when we have conservative political media, as well as elected officials, like a

former president, who are willing to stoke this fire, this anxiety, this frustration. by the end of the obama administration, 55% of white americans polled believed they were discriminated against racially. white americans faced racial discrimination. and in that environment, the type of letter in politics that we see leads to violence. i'm gonna shut up in a second. but the last thing i'll say is this moment we are in has precedent. it's actually very similar to the 19 twenties, a century ago, when it was a rise of a powerful movement that was not just upset about black freedom and inequity, but was concerned about immigration, concern about urban-ism, technology, and income inequality. that movement was called the klan. it was one of the most powerful forces in american politics. we've lived through this moment before and here we are again. >> right, and the movement that followed that, it was called america first, and it was literally the same thing. you know, it is interesting

because the political incentives, you just had ron desantis, the florida governor, in texas which now officially, the largest ethnic group there are latinos. and he went there to say he would like to revoke the 14th amendment, somehow magically, as president, and and birthright citizenship. that is the amendment that was meant to make enslaved people citizens. that's the political incentives that are working within the republican party. i don't know how you reverse it when they believe that's the way to win. >> of course, beyond that, we also have to consider that hispanic immigrants, much like every immigrant group, are very likely going to, as they have shown up here and assimilate here, have a decision to make. do they want to try to assimilate into american whiteness, the way the italians and the irish did before that, groups that were not seen as white, but now we would consider them as white ethnic, right? and that is in a lot of ways vitriol and a motion of the white supremacist society and structure where black is bad and what is good. when people show up, they have

a choice to make, of which they're gonna be closer to, that they can define themselves and their own virtual by not being black. and so, it is unsurprising that we are seeing that already. and it isn't surprising that we see additional political candidates, not just former president trump, engaging in this type of rhetoric. >> and by the way, ron desantis 's people, italian immigrants, you have made your point brilliantly. wesley lowery, as always, wesley lowery author of american light clash -- i want my copy signed when i see you. >> you've got it, joy. >> thank you. and that is tonight's reidout. ali velshi is next with an msnbc special report russia in crisis live from kyiv. don't go anywhere. ♪ ♪ ♪ >>go anywhere. tonight, three days after the start of an armed rebellion -- >> this is a criminal activity which is weakening the country. >> -- putin promises justice, but is it every billion actually over? >> they must have signaled that they're not laying down their