thanks for joining us. "the reidout" with joy reid starts now. ♪♪ tonight on "the reidout" -- >> are there any other recordings that we should be concerned about? >> i don't know of any recordings that you should be concerned with because i don't do things wrong. i do things right. i'm legitimate person. >> the legitimate person is

trying out pathetic new excuses for his fur loined classified documents as the january 6th investigation moves forward with two big names meeting with the special counsel. and despite trump's increasing desperation, kevin mccarthy is still predictably, genuflecting at his mega masters feet. reportedly apologizing for daring to suggest that trump might not be the strongest candidate. and president biden delivers a potent message for the presidential campaign, the american economy is roaring back after the pandemic. as republicans try to take credit for infrastructure they voted against. but we begin tonight with the on going humiliation of kevin mccarthy. the republican house speaker more known for his fears than for wielding the gavel. the latest fiasco kicked off on tuesday when mccarthy went on cnbc to discuss the messiness of a twice-impeached, now

twice-indicted former president becoming his party's nominee. >> you think he could win an election? could he win an election? >> yeah, he can win. >> you think he can. >> the question is he the strongest to win. i don't know that answer. can anybody beat biden. yeah, anybody can beat anybody. it's on any given day. >> kevin, my kevin, have you learned nothing? as to be expected trump world went ballistic over those comments forcing mccarthy to pivot to clean up mode with a mop and everything. scrambling over to breitbart to backtrack what he said. he told the far right website that he believes trump is stronger today than he was in 2016. and that, as usual, the media is attempting to drive a wedge between trump and house republicans. the saga certainly did not end there. after all, trump's wrath destroyed careers and almost

democracies. according to "the new york times," mccarthy also called trump on tuesday to apologize. so, let's just pause for a moment. i mean, can you imagine sam ray burn, the longest serving house speaker apologizing to harry truman for bruising his ego as the u.s. transitioned from war to peace? i mean, can you imagine outspoken speaker tip o'neal graveling to jimmy carter for marching out of step with the party? or just try to picture nancy patricia pelosi, graveling before barack obama or bill clinton for insufficient party line praise? i mean, of course you can't because that would never happen. these weren't fearful devotees. legendary house speakers who i might add never gutted their own pourer and dignity just to get the job. which brings us back to kevin. politico is reporting that none of his recent moves, the backtrack, the apology, have assuaged the fury in trump's inner circle, mccarthy they feel, has taken advantage of the

former president when it benefits him and failed to show unflinching loyalty in return. they don't understand how he could misspeak on something so critical. unflinching loyalty? sounds about trump. of course, mccarthy is enraged trump before, most notably when he said this on the house floor after the january 6th attack on the capitol. >> the president bears responsibility for wednesday's attack on congress by mob rioters. >> but then two weeks later, he was on a plane to mar-a-lago to bend the knee and kiss trump's ring. i mean, what can you expect from a lawmaker described by "the new york times" as a golden retriever of a man, who back in 201 cozied up to trump by bringing him a jar of only red and pink star bursts because those were trump's favorite flavors. my, kevin. just goes to show how truly gutless and powerless he is and exactly who remains the undisputed leader of the republican party. it is why trump's party is

seemingly cowed even as we learn the extent of his recklessness and lawlessness and why most of his republican presidential rivals refuse to even utter his name. joining me now is msnbc political analyst matthew dowd and charles blow, columnist for "the new york times." what a mess. what a mess. i don't know where to begin with this matthew. let me start you. this is politico's reporting on why -- so, first of all, before i even tell you politico's reporting, your thoughts on the fact that a speaker of the whole house of representatives feels he has to gravel to a person who is just actually a retired golfer in a retired guy playing golf in florida. >> well, you know, it doesn't -- probably doesn't surprise you, didn't surprise me. it surprises me only in the frequency and the instantaneous of it. it doesn't surprise me in that. i was thinking of donald trump and the republican party today and it's almost as if donald

trump is a wizard of oz in an alternative universe. where he actually takes your brain, he takes your heart and he takes your courage. he doesn't give them to you. he takes it away from you. every person that has tried to link up with donald trump, loses their thought process, loses their ability to have compassion and empathy and loses their courage. kevin mccarthy is the latest one in that thing. and the other thing i say, is any time i've heard in politics when somebody says they misspoke, it means they accidentally told the truth. >> 100%. the thing is, charles, there are these moments of clarity that republicans have, including kevin mccarthy, he says donald trump was responsible morally and ethically for january 6th. then it's like they snap out of it and realize, oh my god, i'm terrified of this guy. now to get to this politico reporting. he can't even tell trump why he's endorsing him. kevin mccarthy told trump backers he's holding off an endorsement might hurt trump and

suggested the highest ranking officer, perhaps he should stay neutral. that's what he had to do instead of being like, i don't want to endorse you. he's terrified of him. >> absolutely. he is just like most republicans in washington. they have been bowing and scraping for so long that their backs are permanently bent. they do not seem to realize that it was their acquiescence that gave trump this power in the first place. they refused to stand up to him and they didn't do that for so long that it fed into trump's strong man argument, that no one will ever stand up to me. i'm the strong man. and for trump supporters who like that in him, it only bolstered his image. and now it is -- they made him so strong within the party that it is very hard to stand up to him and keep your job. and in addition to that, you know, trump has been playing a very long game here trying to line up things, hoping that he doesn't get indicted by further

indictments. hoping that he doesn't go to trial and get convicted. hoping that he does not wind up in prison. hoping that he gets back into the presidency in time to actually squash the federal investigation into him and hoping that his endorsement of kevin mccarthy after the third vote, took 15 votes to get mccarthy to this spot, will ensure that mccarthy will be so beholden to him that there will be no way he will be impeached again. this is what trump is doing. he tied mccarthy's hands. >> he's right, though. isn't he right? can you imagine kevin mccarthy's life is terrible now, has to answer to marjorie taylor greene and people of that caliber. trump were president again in some horrible universe, he would be even worse off. inherent in the idea of running against somebody in a primary is saying that they shouldn't be president, right? so you have all these people running, with trump in the primary, which inherent in that is saying he shouldn't be the president, i should be. let me just show you two of

them. one of them is the one -- one of two that actually have the courage to say trump's name, that's chris christie. and another one is the guy from florida who doesn't know how to pronounce his own name. take a look. >> i don't understand the other candidates who won't mention his name. like, say his name, man. say his name. >> do you believe that trump violated the peaceful transfer of power a key principle of american democracy that we must uphold. >> i wasn't anywhere near washington that day. i have nothing to do with what happened that day. obviously i didn't enjoy seeing, you know, what happened. but we've got to go forward on this stuff. >> matthew, he won't even use -- teenager looked more presidential than desantis, whatever. >> you know, it's the ill logic of this, whatever there's 11 candidates running against him and chris christie is the only one making a forthright argument, asa hutchinson to a degree baa lot subtler.

they don't understand that in a competitive race you run against somebody. so, like if ron desantis wants to be the republican nominee, he's running against donald trump. but he doesn't seem to want to play that. i actually think the smartest one of all these is chris christie, who i have many faults with and how he enabled trump along the way, but at least he understands that there's two lanes. there's the trump lane, which trump occupies wholly, and then there's the non-trump lane. and the only way you can succeed at all in the non-trump lane is not being donald trump and doing it forthrightly. that's what i don't understand. >> even worse is nikki haley. you know -- >> oh, yes. >> okay. i'm just going to go ahead and play her for y'all. here she is, because she can't figure out within four minutes what her position is on donald trump versus the current president. >> there's clearly something there. and there's clearly something that needs to be found out.

this is about accountability. we can't keep chasing every drama that surrounds trump. >> so, she says literally that was just a couple minutes apart. we didn't separate it by very much. when it comes to biden, we have to figure out something. there has to be something wrong as far as hunter biden. when it comes to trump's family, whoa. come on now. don't get crazy. you know. charles, this is -- they're so terrified of him. why are they running against him then? >> oh, you know, i think a different position. i'm not sure they're running against him. some don't have a shot at all, running for speaking engagements but other seem to be running to be in trump's cabinet. that's the only way it makes sense to me. if you want to be part of the next trump administration, you run by not criticizing the person who you actually think is going to win. i think that they think if he does not -- if he is not imprisoned, not convicted and imprisoned, he'll be the president. and they believe that they will -- by not kind of

confronting him, they'll be part of the next administration. >> i mean, that's the only logical answer. matthew, i think we have to think about constructing the world that they're building for themselves. what i don't understand is behind the scenes, you hear how many of these people despise donald trump. and they would be absolutely miserable in a world in which he was president again. and really ruling without -- just completely unfettered donald trump if he ever were to come back. destroying our democracy, but also destroying their lives. and i don't understand why they just don't take the easy way out. this man is indicted. he's on his way to being indicted, probably again. it's highly likely he'll have an ankle bracelet on at minimum within a year. they could take the easy way out. >> well, the problem is and some of what charles said before is they created this monster. and now all of the villagers are feeding the monster. so the villagers could have stopped this monster five, six, seven years ago. they didn't. and now they've turned it over and the monster has become fed and supported by the base of the

republican party. that's the fundamental problem in america today. donald trump can come and go. i think he's a certainly approximate problem for the democracy and the constitution. the problem now is they created a political party that every single candidate that's going to emerge from that cesspool will be somebody like donald trump or worse. >> well, and charles, i think that is the bigger picture here, right? is that i don't see what the republican party is now other than that. because all the people who come up behind trump are just other versions of him like desantis or worse and that they're creating a culture within the party that is perverse and the base of the party and the people who are supposedly its leaders are just feeding each other more and more rage and trash and i don't see how that vicious cycle ends. >> right. it's hard for me to predict the future, right. when the tea party was happening it would be impossible for me to predict the maga movement would come and literally swallow it

whole. i don't know what the next thing is. there's always a next thing in politics, but for now, the maga movement reigns supreme in the republican party. it is the republican party of today. >> yeah. i guess this used to be your party, matthew. i mean, you know, god bless the queen. >> so long it ain't the party anymore. it ain't the party anymore. >> you know, many of us used to think of the sort of love of george w. bush's cultish. but this takes that to such a different level. is there something that you can see in your former party that breaks the fever? will it take just losing so badly everywhere, every election, up and down until they are so marginalized that finally they give up and say let's try to find someone that at least seems rational? >> you know, i have given this a lot of thought and talked to a lot of republicans who are actually all concerned about this and i'm no longer republican, i'm an independent in this. but i don't see any rational --

any way out of this in the current standing of it. i think actually the republican party as it exists today has to lose so badly and be burned to the ground that something new emerges. it's almost like you need a mount saint helens to go erupt, wipe out the landscape and have new trees grow up. that's the only way out of this. as of today, it's the rage, the cruelty, the disrespect, it's only going to be magnified in the course of this. it has to lose badly. >> and the vicious cycle, the challenge, the irony is the way they're operating, they can only lose then that makes them even more angry. it's wild. thank you both very much. up next on "the reidout," trump tries out a new excuse for hoarding classified documents and it's just as lame and ludicrous as all the others. "the reidout" continues after this. is ♪ ♪ ♪♪

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if it is a day ending in y, you better believe donald trump has a new excuse for his mishandling of classified documents. following the release of the audio recording of his 2021 conversation regarding at least one of those documents at his bedminster golf club with people, none of whom possessed a security clearance, we're now up to excuse number -- i don't know. i just lost count. trump told yesterday that he was not showing off classified documents. it was bravado, quote. i was talking and just holding up papers and talking about them but i had no documents.

semafor adds, when asked about word plans, during a fox news earlier, described items he may have highlighted in the 2021 meeting, trump insisted he was referring to building plans and plans for golf courses, strewn about his desk. well, that explains it. he was actually just showing them his renovation plans. and he was really just trying to decide if he was going to love it or list it. now, there are still questions about the document itself. there is no evidence that the government ever got it back. earlier this month, multiple news outlets reported that trump's lawyers told the doj they haven't been able to find the document related to iran, but what is known is that special counsel jack smith has been interested in what else could be at trump's new jersey golf club. "the new york times" reports that the special counsel had subpoenaed surveillance footage from bedminster, much like they did from mar-a-lago and at one point last year investigators discussed executing a search warrant at bedminster over concerns that more documents were stashed at the club.

joining me now is msnbc legal analyst andrew weissmann, former fbi counsel and former senior member of the mueller quaid and professor at the university of michigan law school and msnbc legal analyst barbara mcquaid. ladies first on this one. let's talk about the import of the tape. trump is trying to say it was just bravado. that means i'm a liar, which is a weird excuse. but the thing about the tape is that it does suggest that maybe he actually just was lying, right? it's possible he was just waving around fake things, but is that a defense? if he's a liar, can't the prosecutors just use that in court? >> yeah. i think there are two reasons that this episode is important around why it's included in the indictment. if you look at the language of the indictment, it says trump showed the document to the people in the room. and they have the benefit of

having talked to those people as witnesses who will have to testify at trial. so the jury will get to hear more about this than we did. they'll hear from these witnesses. if they said in the indictment that it was shown, i think they think they can prove it was shown. so i think they've got that. i think the other important reason it's included here, even as you pointed out, not substance of a charge, shows donald trump's mindset. now, remember -- the charge is not about classified or not classified. it's about national defense information, the disclosure of which could injure the national securities of united states. the statements when he says about i could have declassified but it's not, it's secret stuff. he is suggesting he knows this is very sensitive material. so it tends to go to that willful intent that's necessary to prove the case. >> right. so let me play a couple things here. this is the first one. so, phillip bump wrote a great piece. he listened to the tape again and realized that the thing that sort of stands out is this part, andrew, where he seems to say the words, but this is classified. to barb's point, gets to the

point that he knew it was classified. here is that sound bite right now. it's very short. this is from the tape. >> we can probably, right? >> i don't know. we'll have to see. you know, we'll have to try to -- >> declassify it. >> figure out. >> see as president i could have declassified it. >> now we have a problem. >> isn't that interesting? >> isn't that interesting? it is interesting, andrew, because i could hear it. i don't know if you heard it, but there's that very low sort of, but this is classified. is that significant? >> sure. absolutely. you know, he is charged with retaining national defense information. so his saying that this document is classified is something that's obviously great relevance to the prosecution and to the jury. it's also notable that to this idea that it's just bravado.

by the way, i think bravado, there's another b word you could fill in for bravado as to what's going on here. and this was something that was just business plans or a newspaper clipping which he was one of his stories. when he's showing it, you would have heard on tape what are you talking about? how is this classified? and he is talking about this document as it relates to undermining mark milli's claims with respect to the invasion of a foreign country. that is not business plans about a golf course. i mean, so his whole story to me is just preposterous. i really think that the strategic issue for jack smith is going to be is he going to list out for the jury all of the false claims that donald trump has said about the documents at mar-a-lago and bedminster and leave to the jury the obvious points, which is if you're innocent, do you make up all of these claims? remember, he started by saying

everything was actually planted. now he's saying, oh, no, no, no, it's not planted. it's bravado. i mean, this is one where you really do have to have faith in the jury system. they can look at this. they will take an oath to follow the law as set forth. if they just follow their common sense, i mean, when someone says this is bravado, you can be sure new york jury would be like, uh-huh. i got it. guilty. >> the thing is right, why would he be discussing reno plans about bedminster in an interview about mark meadows? because bedminster has nothing to do with mark meadows. saying this was about renovation plans, that doesn't make sense because they're there to talk about mark meadows. they want to talk about things related to the presidency. doesn't make sense. elena hobb, sometimes his lawyer in his defamation lawsuit against e. jean carroll which is

wild. in this case she is just being his spokesperson. here is her defense versus the recording. >> here is a tape. here is a tape of saying what? a president can declassify documents. i'm no longer president. i can't declassify documents now. >> to the people who says he says on the tape he can't declassify it. >> correct. he wasn't president at the time of the tape. he couldn't declassify. he knew that. but he doesn't saying it wasn't declassifies. he was saying presidents can declassify. as a nonpresident you can't. that has nothing to do with it. it's a red heging. >> no. here is what he said because -- here is the thing. she is talking about what wasn't done. he is talking about what is. the word here is. take a listen to this and pay attention to is. >> except it is, like highly confidential. >> yeah. >> secret. this is secret information. see as president i could have declassified it, now i can't.

you know, but this is classified. >> not wasn't, is. >> he uses the word secret, a classification level. my guess is the document itself is stamped secret. looking at it and is saying this is secret. secret is information disclosure of which would cause damage to the national security of the united states. you listen to the context of that conversation it's very clear their talking about a specific piece of paper. >> exactly. let's go to the other sort of reporting that's happening, andrew. you had rudy giuliani go in and testify in the other grand jury. this is the grand jury that seems to be about fake electors, et cetera, for those who don't remember rudy giuliani was trying to get different states to flip their electors and give to trump. we have the audio of one of the calls he made to pennsylvania republicans. >> another legislature, pennsylvania house speaker brian cutler received daily voice mails from trump's lawyers in the last week of november. >> mr. speaker, this is rudy

giuliani and jenna ellis. we're calling you together because we'd like to discuss, obviously the election. >> hello, mr. speaker. this is jenna el lits. i'm here with mayor giuliani. >> hey, brian. it's rudy, i really have something important to call to your attention that i think really changes things. >> cutler felt that the outreach was inappropriate and asked his lawyers to tell rudy giuliani to stop calling. but giuliani continued to reach out. >> i understand that you don't want to talk to me now. i just want to bring some facts to your attention. and talk to you as a fellow republican. >> it's harassment at this point. do you have a sense of how far along that part of the investigation and that grand jury might be? >> no idea. sorry. >> you're so good at predicting. >> i don't know. >> yeah. >> do you get the sense you're at the giuliani stage, how much further would they need to go? you think they want meadows. you think they want giuliani.

you think they want -- who would signal to you that this is getting to the end? >> yeah. so, what i will say, i don't know where they are, but to me, once the documents case was done, indicted and underway, you have now been hearing about all sorts of activity, the latest being this interview of mr. giuliani by the federal investigators. we heard about this in connection with the atlanta investigators. but i think what we're seeing is that the pace is picking up at the federal level. rudy giuliani, i think, is fascinating because the issue is whether he's going to say he did anything wrong in representing to various electors various facts. or is he going to be like a mr. cork ran or christina bobb saying i was lied to. yes, what i said to them was wrong, but i didn't know it was

wrong. that's sort of the conundrum of rudy giuliani is whether he'll be sort of saying i'm like cork ran and bobb, yes, i can be a witness for you, but i don't have any exposure. and i think that's probably what is going on now. where is he on that. and that's one where we don't know is how much evidence jack smith has that rudy giuliani was knowingly saying something that was false. >> absolutely. and i think what donald trump needs to be worried about in both of these cases, this ain't the people who prosecuted oj. they know the answer to the question. they know the glove fits before they asked anybody to put it on. they are prepared. thank you both very much. coming up, president biden heads to chicago for a well-deserved victory lap on america's stunning post-pandemic economic rebound. we'll be right back. nd we'll be right back.

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♪♪ bidenomics is working. when i took office, the pandemic was raging and our economy was reeling. supply chains were broken. millions of people unemployed. hundreds of thousands of small businesses on the verge of closing after so many had already closed. litd rally hundreds of thousands on the verge of closing. today the u.s. has the highest

economic growth rate leading the world economies since the pandemic. the highest in the world. >> that was president biden today in chicago touting his economic agenda. which he is now calling bidenomics. and to be fair, the president does have quite a few economic achievements to brag about. the unemployment rate is 3.7%, near the lowest it's been since 1969. with the jobs numbers in recent months outperforming expectations. we have also seen the inflation rate cool significantly from the highs last year, from over 9% to now 4%. which is much lower than what most other countries are currently experiencing. and that's not an accident. it is the direct result of some of the policies democrats have passed and president biden has signed into law. like the inflation reduction act. the chips and science act and the infrastructure bill. which some republicans are now actually trying to take credit for, despite the fact that they

literally voted against it, or as the great nancy pelosi put it, they voted no and are taking the dough. alabama tommy tubberville put out a tweet boasting how much money state is receiving for broad band calling it vital for the rural communities and our entire economy. to which the president in full dark brandon mode replied simply, see you at the ground breaking. joining me now is michigan governor gretchen whitmer. governor gretchen whitmer, i have friends that live in your state. i'm always tempted to call you big gretch, that's what the peoples call you. let's talk about this because, you know, biden is out there bragging about the economy. he ain't wrong. i was just talking with my producer before we came on about this graph. i'm going to let you put your ear piece back in. it is pretty wild when you look at this graph.

this is wild. i didn't realize that biden's job creation was this dope. i mean, his job creation outflanks like three other presidents added up together. that's his monthly job growth per job growth. it's something. what do you make of the disconnect between that very clear data and people's perception that biden is -- hasn't got this great economy? >> well, first i'm thrilled to be here with you. and you know, i think that the president's plans are working. we are seeing, as you pointed out, low unemployment. high job growth, low inflation. i mean, it's really amazing what is going on in our economy right now. and people have the tendency to move on to the next thing and of course we've got big, big challenges, but the president's plan is working. here in michigan, we're going to be getting $2.4 billion for rural -- for broad band, and it will apply to rural communities

as well as urban communities. 99% of the households and businesses in michigan will get connected because of what president biden has done. so, bidenomics is working. and i think people are going to see it when they're driving, they're seeing the orange barrels, the work being done and they know that when democrats lead and when president biden is leading, our lives are getting better, our standing in the world is getting better. that's something all americans benefit from. >> look at the polls and see a third of people say the economy is good. and it is just arguably not true, right. the economy is good. just factually good. do you think -- you're in an executive role. you can relate to this, right? you have passed a bunch of bills. we have a list of them here. you know, you repealed this abortion ban. this 1931 abortion ban, reaffirmed civil rights protection for lgbtq people, implemented red flag gun law, cut taxes, expanded affordable housing. when that stuff passes, it takes

a while for the actual -- the economic things to actually get started, right? the abortion ban, that's right away. but do you think it's because the shovels didn't go right in the ground the minute it passed and that it's sort of a lagging indicator and as you said, now that they see the trucks moving, maybe people will change their view. >> yeah. i think -- you know, in the last election, my opponent talked about how we hadn't done enough to fix the roads. but it flew in the face of the evidence that people saw every single day, the orange barrels all across the state of michigan. i think we're going to see the exact same thing when it comes to bidenomics that people are going to understand that. all those job openings that were unfilled -- or all those jobs that people were looking for are now job openings because unemployment is at an all time low. i was just in europe, traveling for economic development purposes. inflation is 9% over there. it has dropped dramatically here. it's not a coincidence. this president knows how to get things done. this president is staying focussed on what matters.

he doesn't play divisive politics, doesn't fire off irresponsibly tweets. he does the work and the work is paying off and people are going to start -- they're feeling it already but they're really going to start to see. it's undeniable that this country is in a stronger position and our lives are better off because of the work the president has done. >> do you think that some of the disconnect, too, is also kind of the sort of negative things that are happening, that have nothing to do with the president, right? the abortion issue i think is really weighing on a lot of women. and i think weighing on mood because there is this sort of sense of panic. i know the statistically michigan is starting to see more people flooding in because it's a free state and the states that are now sort of womb slave states or whatever you want to call them in the south and in the west where people can't get abortions people have to leave and find their way to places like michigan to exercise bodily autonomy, do you think that the stress that people feel over that or things like rent, you know, it's sort of eclipses people's sort of objective knowledge of what's happening in

the economy? could that be one of the things that's sort of creating people's sort of negative vibe? >> well, at the end of the day, joy, you know and we all know, all politics is local. what is happening in your life is going to inform whether or not you think things are going well and you're able to put food on the table and take care of your family and live a high-quality life. make your own decisions about your body. have fundamental right in the your workplace and in your home. we see culture wars playing out. and we got a president who is staying focussed on the fundamentals. but we need to not rest -- even though we secured a lot of these rights here in michigan, it is all very precarious because what happens at the federal level is ultimately going to impact whornt we can make our own decisions about our bodies. and we have fundamental rights and we're respected and protected under the law whether our kids can go to school without being fearful that there aren't background checks happening when people are buying guns. these are the freedoms that this

president has -- is working so hard to secure for all americans, but right now it's a patchwork. that's why this upcoming election is so important because i don't want to see my state revert back. i want to see other americans step forward and have the same kind of freedoms we secured here in michigan. >> yeah. absolutely. i think the idea of a national abortion ban will sober the minds of a lot of people and let's just be real clear, the economy -- you can't really deny it. bidenomics, he can brag about it because the economy is objectively in good shape. michigan governor, gretchen whitmer, thank you very much. really appreciate you coming on. and for more on the success of bidenomics, don't miss my colleague and pal stephanie rule exclusive interview tonight at 11:00 p.m. with janet yellen, right here on msnbc, that's definitely a much watch. still ahead, new reporting on just how far the head of the wagner group was prepared to go in his attempted uprising against russia's military.

we'll get a live report from the great ali velshi live in kyiv next. in kyiv next mmm, popcorn. (alternate voice) denture disaster, darling! we need poligrip before crispy popcorn. (regular voice) let's fix this. (alternate voice) poligrip power hold + seal

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>> do you think vladimir putin is weaken today than he was before all those events? >> i know he is. >> despite being in a weakened position, as president biden put it, russia's vladimir putin is still assaulting ukraine in horrific ways. striking civilians in the eastern ukrainian town of kramatorsk last night. this comes as we're learning more about the attempted mutiny last weekend. "the new york times" is reporting one of russia's top generals had advanced knowledge of prigozhin's plans to stage a rebellion. strikingly, u.s. officials said they were trying to learn if

but now it's got that sort of feeling the people were involved in. it you laid it out pretty well. they're prigozhin, somebody found out about this thing. russian intelligence found out about it, so it seems that it's possible he could've rushed this whole operation. he went to a town called rostov-on-don, the largest town in southwestern russia, and he believed that the general that he was looking for, gerasimov

and go where there, and he intended to rescue them and they weren't there when you got. they're now he called he said it wasn't a cool because he wasn't looking to overthrow putin he just wanted to overthrow the defense ministry, which is where his beef lies. the new reporting from -- surovikin was in charge of all the ukrainian forces and all the russian forces in ukraine. he was removed from his job in january. he's now the head of the russian air force. turns out that he is reported to have known that this thing was going to happen. a heap of video and saturday which encourage soldiers to put down their weapon. wagner soldiers and to not do this. there are people who speculate from the video that he did not look genuine about it and they felt that for some reason it looked, people described it as like a bit of a hostage video. fast forward to now, and that's the reporting. the russian intelligence services knew about it, and the

russians are trying to find out who else was in on it. because if the head of the air force, a guy who only prosecuted the war in ukraine, was in on with him or knew about it, why then was something else not done? it sounds like they are searching around their military ranks for who knew and what were they doing about it when they knew. this all begs the question, did vladimir putin know about it ahead of time? and if he did, why were these people allowed to take a town in southern ukraine and get within 125 miles of moscow? and why is there a deal that prevents yevgeny prigozhin from being arrested? why is he in belarus? it feels more like a coup than it did. >> right, and why is he alive, right? apparently there was some sort of deal at the belarusian leader. so putin today did this stage he looking here i am in the throng of crowd of people who love me. he doesn't go near people, so it is interesting to see him with humans. but the sense of the stability

of this regime, it's not too stable, let's put it that way. it is looking like there are very few people he actually can trust. is that an accurate reading of the way people are speaking about? it >> history will tell you that if you see things that are and regimes, this is what happens. the leader becomes paranoid. our people are plotting. there was somebody around your plotting, the head of the air force, who else might have been in on this and how might it have succeeded? then what do you? do you have military in your major cities. military around the president all the time to make sure that it's not happening,, which is military that's not in ukraine in this particular case, or you have a wounded bear who has to prove to the world that he is not wounded and maybe accelerate the attacks on ukraine. one thing that's important, whether it's prigozhin or sarov can, they both have the same criticism, the russia is not being brutal enough in the way it's carrying out the war. so there's both of those things. and then there's the warning from the united states that, be

careful the enemy of your enemy is not necessarily a friend. an unstable russia as much as some people in the world would celebrate that, may also be a bad thing. so there's a lot more to go in this story. one more chapter. today >> a wounded bear with nuclear weapons. this is actually quite tell terrifying. ali velshi, thank you so much. up next, a big, huge huge announcement about a big huge -- that was bagged by one of the favorite friends in colleagues a very high profile vip whose name rhymes with ryan. back in a sec. n. back in a sec. dancin in the par—!

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folks at home. tomorrow on this very program, at this very time, president joe biden will join us in what will be his first live sit-down interview since becoming president. there is a -- and talk to him about. you won't want to miss it, right here at 4:00 tomorrow. >> we call that a big get. it's a great and wonderful nicole wallace making a big announcement a few hours ago. so be sure to watch. deadline white house four pm eastern, rachel maddow and i will join nikole after the interview. so you know, gotta get together. you don't want to miss it. that's next for you all. all in with