to go anywhere because coming up in just about 30 seconds, "deadline white house" is going to have a live, exclusive interview with the president of the united states. the president of the united states, joe biden, is here in new york city at the 30 rock studios and he's sitting down with nicolle wallace. there's a lot to talk about from affirmative action in that ruling today to the economy to whatever is going on in russia. doessido? do not go anywhere. "deadline white house" starts right now. ♪♪ hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. the president of the united states is here at the table really. there's a lot to get to. today's headlines read like the lyrics from billy joel's "we didn't start the fire," a brand new supreme court decision ends 45 years of affirmative action in college admissions, a mutiny in moscow, a year of living

dangerously for american women post-roe and a hot off the presses economic stump speech that debuted yesterday in chicago. and all of that just since saturday. without further ado, the 46th president of the united states, joe biden. thank you for being here. >> thank you for having me. >> this is very exciting for us. >> exciting for me. >> you said today -- and i know that you have a lot of power but i can't imagine you manufactured the breaking news about the court. you say this court is not normal. what did you mean? >> what i meant by that is it's done more to unravel basic rights and basic decisions than any court in recent history. that's what i meant by not normal. it's gone out of its way -- i mean, for example, take a look at overruling roe v. wade, take a look at the decision today, take a look at how it's -- how it's ruled on a number of issues that are -- have been precedent for 50, 60 years sometimes, and

that's what i meant by not normal. >> can i read you some of your appointees dissent, because i think it will be in the history books along with this decision. justice ketanji brown jackson said in part, coat, with let them eat cake obliviousness today, the majority pulls the rip cord and announces color blindness for all by legal fiat. but deeming race irrelevant in law does not make it so in life. it's so simple. >> she's right. >> but so right. how did the six get it so wrong? >> that's -- look, remember the federalist society when you were in another administration? >> in another party, yes. >> i didn't mean it that way. >> it's okay. >> but the federalist society had a very, very strict construction of the constitution, and if used the

word it didn't exist. this court has gone beyond that. and i just find it -- i don't know how to express it. find it just so out of sorts with the basic value system of the american people, and i think that across the board, the vast majority of the american people don't agree with a lot of the decisions the courts are making. >> i think some of your former senate colleagues on the judiciary committee would go as far as to say that it's anti-democratic. do you agree with that? >> well, you know, if i say it's antidemocratic -- >> get in a lot of trouble. >> it is -- its value system is different, and its respect for institutions is different, and in that sense, it is not as embracing of all what i think the -- the constitution says we hold these truths to be self-evident, all men and women

are created equal endowed by their creator. it's the uniqueness of america. we never fully lived up to it, we never walked away from it. this court seems to say that's not always the case. giving states power that we fought a war over in 1960. you know, i just think it's -- this is not your father's republican party. >> well, and to that point, roe and casey are decided with justices appointed by democrats and republicans, and these opinions that land outside the range of public opinion in our country are super conservative majority decisions. they're 6-3 on dobbs, they're 6-3 on affirmative action. does it require -- does your love and reverence for institutions. >> before i got elected while i put together a group of constitutional scholars to try

to expand the court, which i think is a mistake after all the judgment, that doesn't make sense because it can become so politicized in the future. but so what i've done is i have in my appointments, i've appointed 136 judges and found ourselves in a situation where i pick people who are from various backgrounds. we've appointed more women to the appellate courts, black women to the appellate courts than every other president in american history, not just ketanji brown, but more than any across the board. we've also -- i wanted to make sure that we on the court and republicans have been appointed to the court by us as well. on the court want to have public defenders, people who have been on the other side of the equation so that everyone's represented. there's a point of view to be able to be made, and -- but there's -- i have no hard test to say you must have this.

i never asked a nominee what's their position on a, b, c or d. >> no litmus test. >> no litmus test. >> to you worry without court reform this conservative majority is too young and too conservative, they might do too much harm? >> i think they may do too much harm, but i think if we start the process of trying to expand the court, we're going to politicize it maybe forever in a way that is not healthy. >> that you can't get back. >> that i can't get back. and i think, look, i think maybe it's just the optimist in me. i think that some of the court are beginning to realize their legitimacy is being questioned in ways it hadn't been questioned in the past. and i think there's a concern on some, maybe even the chief justice that maybe, maybe we --

>> independent legislatures decision, it looks like maybe roberts had that in mind? >> i don't know that. >> i don't either. >> the optimist could hope so. >> the optimist hopes that. >> let me ask you about an institution that we spend a lot of time covering here, and that's the justice department. "the washington post" recently reported that it took the justice department seeing cassidy hutchinson's public testimony, which was a year ago yesterday, to really focus on trump is and his innermost circles role in the january 6th coup plot. you've awarded medals to officer fanone and the others. do they deserve to know why it took the justice department a year to open an investigation into the person that incited the insurrection? >> look, i've made a commitment that i would not in any way interfere with the justice department, who they prosecuted if they prosecuted, how they proceeded. i've not spoken once, not one single time with the attorney general on any specific case,

not once, and -- but i do talk to him about law enforcement and all those other things. but the point is that i just think -- about interfering in institutions, the last administration tried to direct the court, tried to push the court. i mean, whether it was the fed or the court or institutions, supposed to say hands off. that's why i have never engaged in that. >> when you talk about strengthening democracies at home and abroad, do other democratic leaders wanted to know why the foot soldiers of the insurrection have been charged and prosecuted but not the leader? >> the answer is yes, but here's my answer. the -- i have faith the justice department will move in a direction that is consistent with the law, and so it may take time, but i have faith that they're going to do the right thing. i have not spoken about that, and i don't think i should. >> and i think that, again, is sort of this reverence for the institutions and the norms and i

guess the bet is that the public will see the difference between you and should you run against donald trump again, not even donald trump, ron desantis wants to completely direct investigations. do you think that your next message to the country, the contrast is even sharper than the soul of the nation? you've got the other party openly running on politicizing the role of law. >> well, the answer is -- i think it's going to be a my jor -- major issue. you may remember because you spoke it, when i ran in 2020, i made a speech on the threat to democracy and i made it in philadelphia at independence hall, and a lot of the press, what's he talking about this for? not just the press, others, why is he talking about this. >> it's not a kitchen table issue. >> that's right. but guess what, 66% of the american people thought it was important. >> correct. >> they worry about it. they do worry about it. and i think that it's important that they know that my value set is very different than this new

maga republican party. i really did -- look, i know you're going to think i'm a little naive here after all these years, but i have great faith in the instincts of the american people. i really do. i believe ordinary people are decent and honorable, if you appeal to them they'll do the right thing, and i think that's -- and the other thing is, nicolle, you know, there's a lot of good that's happening. for example, 60 some percent of the american people have greater job satisfaction than they've had in the high 15, whatever the number is 30 years. i know the polling numbers are not good but they were the same way when i ran and won. everybody thought i was going to get clobbered in a primary. i got 80 million votes in the last election. and the same thing i remember i was saying i thought the democratic party was going to do extremely well in the off year election, and other than the bushes it did.

and a victory by not having a significant loss, we're going to lose 40 seats and all that. i just think it's a matter of -- and this is not a criticism of press, it's an observation. there's a lot to be worried about around the world, and talking to a lot of reporters they tell me -- i better be careful what i say. a number of reporters have indicated that there's no editors anymore. >> huh. >> on what they do. and i had one reporter tell me that, you know, i'm a reporter but i got my -- one of my editors of the newspaper came to me and said you don't have a brand yet. it was a major newspaper. i said, well, i'm not an editorial writer. you need a brand so people will watch you and listen to you because of what they think you're going to say. and i just think there's a lot

changing. before i wasn't going to run for office again, i mean, for real. my son had died. i was teaching at the university of pennsylvania, and i had a significant budget to hire a lot of people for the biden democracy from tony blinken to others that came along, and when what i found was that it was awfully hard to stay silent when i saw those people coming out of the woods. i mean, literally, you never think you'll see people in charlottesville, virginia, coming out of the woods with lighted torches, carrying swastikas. >> the antidefamation league said since then incidents of anti-semitism are on the ride. >> that's why i started a whole new initiative on anti-semitism.

>> right. >> let's talk about values. when the president of the united states, when that young woman was killed, bystander. >> heather heyer, yeah. >> i and talked to her mom and he was asked what's happened down there, he said there are very good people on both sides. >> yeah. >> very good people on both sides. >> john kelly's face told it all, right? his head in his hands. >> but it did. but think about what that says. >> right. >> about our values. >> well, he's still the republican standard bearer, and if you look at the line, i mean, tim hay fee who was a lead investigator for the congressional investigation was also an investigator, lead investigator in charlottesville. there's the through line between the people that were animated and excited by that and the people that showed up on january 6th, and i know you view the communications around the economy in this speech yesterday as vital, making sure that all americans know what you've done to improve the economy, but it

sounds like you're going to spend equal attention communicating about the threats to democracy? >> yes, and equal attention on foreign policy. look -- >> can you tell us what you gnaw ahead of time would happen in russia? >> i can't tell you that -- we knew things ahead of time. >> did you worry that trump might have tipped him off if he'd still been president? >> oh, god, i don't know. i don't think about that very often. but look, all kidding aside, from the very beginning i made it, you've been around presidents working with them. i think every president is always amazed by that madeleine albright was probably right, that america is the lead in the world. and so from the very beginning, in the first meeting of the g-7 in england in february when i got elected, i have focused on

holding nato together. and then expanding that cadre to 40 countries. >> yeah. >> including japan engaged in european affairs and helping ukraine. in order to deal with the one thing that i worried, always remember worrying about, putin believed he could break up through solidarity of the west. and that happens -- he had a total run. for example, when all this was going on, i was re -- i was calling meetings for the g-7. i was meeting on video and/or telephone because we couldn't get there. >> because covid was still happening, right, at the beginning. >> in the beginning. >> right. >> my staff pointed out to me, i have around about 180 hours with these heads of state because they look to us, and i've made it -- putin has won objective, split the west. if he did that, we are in real

trouble. >> right. >> we've been able to hold everything together and to help and deal with focusing on making sure that the most significant invasion since world war ii does not succeed. and that's why we continue to get significant support to ukraine, and so that's what i've spent a lot of time doing, including spending time with zelenskyy. >> when i worked with john mccain on the am pain trail, i used to sit in the back of the suv with he, and lindsey graham. we'd be heading into an important swing state and i'd be trying to tell them about their local sport team, and he's get off the phone and want to talk about -- he was almost ahead of his time, right? what do you think he would think of his republican party? >> i don't think he'd think much of it. i don't know that, okay? >> no, we can't speak for him obviously, but he was so strong. >> he was strong. >> in articulating what you just

did. >> look, when i went out to see him when he was dying at his home in arizona, he asked me going out, he said, joe, would you do my eulogy. it was one of the greatest honors that i've had. we used to -- you remember he started working with me when he came back as a prisoner of war from being a prisoner of war, and i helped talk him into running, and i used to kid him. you know, we used to argue like hell. argue like hell, but like brothers, we'd end up hugging one another. >> that's the way politics used to be. you'd fight for the cameras, and you'd -- >> and then you may recall, i got very upset with -- with the last president and even and my good friend lindsey sometimes because the denial, i mean, covering the name on the ship of

john mccain. i mean, come on. this guy was a hero. we may disagree, but he was a completely thoroughly honorable man. >> yeah. >> the way things were. well, mr. president, we don't get a lot of presidents through this studio, so consider it your chair. consider it an open invitation. there are going to be a lot of things on people's mind and i hope you'll look at this as a place you can come and talk about anything that's onyour mind. >> we show up when we're invited. >> we're like the hotel california, you can check out, but you can never leave. people pop up, you know, at 4:00 and at 4:50 they're still hear, so your staff and a lot of other people will come get me if i do that to you. >> it's been an honor to be with you. i really mean it. >> thank you, we're really grateful. >> this ain't your father's republican party. >> it is not. i can attest to that. if you ever need a witness, i

can attest to that. >> there's still a really lot of good republicans. >> out in the country. >> in the senate. >> who? >> i think mitt romney's the first -- not mitt, but others have come to me since i've been elected, now it's six republican senators, two came at one time and the other four alone to tell me, joe, i agree with you, but if i'm seen doing it, i'll lose the primary. it's not a profile in courage, but you know me, i'm an eternal optimist, i still think there's going become a moment when they're going to be able to break. remember when i said we could still do bipartisan things, they said we couldn't do it. we got a lot of bipartisan things done. >> and now they're running on your bipartisan accomplishments. >> like i said, i'm going to be down there congratulating them. i'll be a president for every american whether they voted for me or not.

>> the ones that didn't vote on your bills but run on them. >> thank you, thank you, thank you. >> thank you. don't go anywhere. it's a very exciting day around here. we'll have reaction and analysis to everything we just heard from the president. we'll be back after a short break. esident. we'll be back after a short break. show summer who's boss with wayfair's fourth of july clearance. shop all the top grills and more up to 40% off. with smokin' fast shipping. and get wayfair deals so epic, it'll feel like you're getting away with something. yes! so take summer into your own hands - and get extra outdoorsy with wayfair's fourth of july clearance. june 28 through july 5. ♪ wayfair you've got just what i need ♪

some of your former senate colleagues on the judiciary committee would go as far as to say that it's antidemocratic. do you agree with that? >> well, you know, if i say it's antidemocratic, then it gets -- >> you get this a lot of trouble. >> no, but it is -- its value system is different, and it's

respect for our institutions is different, and in that sense, it is -- it is not as embracing of all what i think the -- the constitution says we hold these truths to be self-evident. all men and women are created equal, endowed by their creator. it's the uniqueness of america, never fully lived up to t never walked away from it. this court seems to say that's not always the case. the idea there's no right of privacy in the constitution giving states power that we fought a war over in 1960. you know, i just think it's -- this is not your father's republican party. >> that was president joe biden at this table in this studio moments ago. an exclusive live interview where we discussed a range of issues, the things he faces just today, a day in the life of a president. later in the show, we'll have a chance to talk to my colleagues,

rachel maddow and joy reid about some of what we heard from the president, especially those comments on the conservative supreme court, the insurrection, his views on staying away from those institutions and what that means for the state of our democracy. let's bring in some of our most favorite reports and friends mike memoli who first interviewed then senator joe biden in 2007. mike's been traveling with him ever since and covering him, lucky for us. his book about president biden titled "the long run" comes out next year. also joining me here in studio, chair of the department of african american studies at princeton university, eddie glaude, our friend, foremaner senator claire mccaskill is with us. i do believe ketanji brown jackson's dissent will wind up in history books when the chapter about today's decision was written. let me read what his appointee to the court said today. with let them eat cake obliviousness today, the majority pulls the ripcord and announces color blindness for all by legal fiat. but deeming race irrelevant in

law does not make it so in life. >> yeah, it was a master class. it's an extraordinary account of the history of the united states. it's a counter to the argument in wait in which they're reading the 14th amendment, the equal protection clause a a basis for kind of color blind law. she in so many ways makes the argument or the claim very straightforward. america doesn't look like it looks by mistake. ole miss doesn't look the way it looks by mistake. princeton doesn't look the way it looks by mistake. it's the result of deliberate policy. and if we're going to enter a world where we are not defined biracialinequality, then we're going to have to be as deliberate in dismantling it. >> he made a point, he would go so far as to say the supreme court is antidemocratic. he did make a point saying as with dobbs, it is way out of step with the majority of the american people.

>> yeah, you know, he's very clear about it, and he has to be very careful in how he talks. but look, we're in the midst of relitigaing the 1960s, relitigating the world that was created as a result of the black freedom struggle, as a result of the women's movement, as a result of the gay liberation movement. we're re-litigaing that right now. the court is clear. >> mike, what did you think? to eddie's point, he was careful was, and i joked at one point. there is a loyalty to institutions that you've talked about in all of his runs for president. it is why in the end we were talking about john mccain who had that same -- it's not just affection and affinity, it's fealty, it's almost a religious trust in the institutions. and he also said something about the american people, and it's sort of the two pillars that you always talk about. he's of course grounded by his faith, but also as public

servant, as a public figure, it's his faith in the institutions and his face faith in the american people fl one of the things that's fascinating to me watching president joe biden having covered him in a long time, now that he has the job he's always wanted he feels in some ways constrained by it. and i think he wanted to say a lot more about what the supreme court did today. >> i think if he didn't have to go. it's a balance, right? you don't want to go way over time. >> he certainly was tempered in some ways to what he wants to say. the oh part of his campaign, there are 495 days until the election. that's how this white house thinks. the story of the day is not necessarily what they're focussed on. as a student of history, president biden is looking at what the supreme court has done. he thinks they have reversed the arc of this country, which is always expanding rights, expanding freedom. all men and women are created equal. we haven't always lived up to

it, but we've always strived for it. he thinks the supreme court is going in the wrong direction, and this is going to be one of his anchors. he wants to say more, though. >> he did want to say more. it seems like a good angel and a naughty one. maybe the good one wants him to stay on message. i was a white house staffer. >> being vice president was a lot more fun this that respect. >> i want to read some more of the reaction that came in when the supreme court decision, which really was a legal and political earthquake this morning, claire mccaskill. this is michelle obama, so often we just accept that money, power, and privilege are perfectly justifiable forms of affirmative action, while kids growing up like i did are expected to compete when the ground is anything but level. powerful statements from michelle, and president obama. affirmative action wasn't perfect, but it allowed generations of students like michelle and me to prove we belonged. now it's up to all of us to give

young people the opportunities they deserve. a real sort of gut punch, and a real placement in the center of this story from people like president and michelle obama today. >> yeah, we've never had a supreme court that seemed to be so focused on taking things away from the american people. this has always been a court that has provided checks and balances, but most importantly it has also provided important decisions that empowered women, empowered gay americans, empowered african americans and others to participate more fully in the great american experiment. and this court is pulling us backwards, and joe biden feels it. he feels it in his bones, and he also believes -- and i think he's right -- that the american

people are very uncomfortable with it. and then you add on top the whipped cream and the cherry that is the ethical challenges the court is faing right now. i think he senses correctly he has a real campaign issue, and i think he'll be successful with that campaign issue. >> mike, that's where it left me when he wouldn't sort of bite on even his own former colleagues in the senate go much farther than he was willing to go. but it is, when you look at the dobbs decision, there's more support now for safe and legal abortion than there was 13 months ago. affirmative action is the same. once it was viewed as threatened, the public came out ask i think 65/35, this is the number of support and lack of it that didn't want the supreme court to touch it. there is something extremely activist, extremely reaching into the most intimate aspects of american life that this court is doing if that's an argument he plans to take to the country. >> absolutely, the white house

last year was sick of us talking about the historical trends by midterm year, which the president's party often sees significant losses. last year they defied that historical trend. >> that's another point he made. this is what the supreme court decision did in the dobbs decision a year ago. there's a reason the first word the president under the nerd his re-election video was freedom. one of the things president biden is most proud of in his career is that he feels as senate judiciary committee chairman he led to anthony kennedy being on the supreme court, which led to same-sex marriage being the law of the land. this is how he views the country and he views the expansion of freedom as important, and they think abortion will be a bigger issue in 2024 than it even was in 2022. we're going to have another big supreme court decision tomorrow on student loans. they're now a political actor in a way that might support the

president is and his campaign message. republicans are going to have a lot to say ale with. >> it's not as fertile for republicans. these positions guide republicans. >> it's been fascinating to watch the ways in which the state level republicans are not campaigning on abortion as they've been passing on these bans and state legislatures, there are candidates for statewide office in those states running away from them. ask nikki haley, how many weeks would you support, and she said i'll answer that question when president biden answers that question. they don't want to talk about this. they see where the polling is. this is an issue that the white house is going to be putting front and center. >> claire, i think the president exercised maybe the most restraint when i asked if he worried what trump would have done with the intelligence he saw ahead of the mutiny in moscow. it's also clear that while u.s. intelligence had a sense of

these threats to putin from the white or from the wagner group, that the focus is still on what the west does. what do you make of that sort of other piece of what has animated his spire presidency, sewing together the nato alliances, not just knitting them back together, the last guy refused to affirm our article 5 commitments to them. it's expanding nato, affirming the commitments and keeping them together at moments of crisis like last weekend in russia. >> i can assure you that joe biden became vice president because of his foreign policy chops. at the time we hadn't had the economic melttown. there was a real sense that the ticket would be strengthened by joe biden's resume as it relates to world leaders and how comfortable he is on the world stage. he understand when he entered the oval office that russia had one goal, and that was to bust

up nato. he'd had a willing partner in donald trump. trump wanted to bust up nato, wanted to weaken nato. did not see nato and the alliance of the west as fundamental, foundational to american values. joe biden does and he realizes that uniting the west for the things we believe in, freedom and democracy and actually caring about human rights abuses, this is something haeb able to do because putin thought he could get away with waltzing into ukraine and taking it over. and instead, with joe biden leading he united the west, and i think that -- his foreign policy, his economics and his bipartisan accomplishments, he's got a really strong platform to run on if he can stay focussed and disciplined. and by the way, he seemed normal and thoughtful today.

i get so tired of everybody trying to make him look like he's weak and can't put a sentence together. he seemed like a normal strong president that shares the values the majority of the country. >> and i think if he didn't have to go he'd be trying to tell me which republicans he can work with. he's like there are six that are good. i'm like who? he will not be deferred from another one of his core beliefs, which is in the possibility of bipartisanship. >> yeah, it's interesting because we have seen this administration pursue a number of initiatives mainly through negotiating among democrats. that was a lot of the sausage making. we're seeing the president run on these bipartisan accomplishments as well. he said something interesting yesterday in that chicago speech that was not a scripted like. he thinks as the american people see these projects coming online, it will lessen some of the divisions in this country was that a hopeful line, i think. that was not part of the script from him.

>> he's still very optimist ek. you need to show that the government can do its job and perform its core functions. that's what he's been set about trying to do is show that government can work and parties can come together. they have, what is it, more than 350 bipartisan bills. they're unlikely to get more in the next year and a half. this president is certainly going to be running on that. >> and it structural undermines the republican election, the only reason bringing it all down for steve bannon and donald trump, is because they've made it value less. what the president's bet seems to be that you will value a bridge, you will value a road. you will value broadband. and his ways against time seems to make sure everyone has those things. >> the problem is they get gas lighted. >> yeah, yeah. there's clearly a sense that he

reads his own press. there was a little bit of gentle chiding of what i think he was trying to describe as click bait. tell me, you know, i'm not there to see this. what is that about? >> the president one way in which i will say he's somewhat trumpian is that he watches and reads his clips more than i think people appreciate. i think he is frustrated to the ceo with which -- and you rightfully teased my book title, the long run. they take the long view and so much of this discourse is what's happening in the moment. to step back, have a broader lens of what's happening in this moment. he does think our politics is often too small, our journalism is too small. some have been a lot more blunt about that behind the scenes too. that's why i think it was so interesting here, right? we haven't seen a president do this kind of interview before, and i think there's a testing of letting joe biden be joe biden

again to try to -- these are the ways he can try to breakthrough a little bit more. you know, the traditional ways and you get a message through white house are not necessarily affecting the same way anymore, and so i think they're experimenting, trying to get him into different settings trying to get through it a little more. >> the other people of his experience to me, claire, you know, when i was riding in the back of the suv with lindsey graham, john mccain, and joe lieberman -- he was barack obama's running mate. >> he yearns for that. i can tell you that he along with a lot of other people in washington are disgusted with the performance politics that's going on, you know, these senators that are blocking every nominee to the -- for the military and blocking every no, ma'am -- nominee to the justice

department and jd vance, and what's that football coach's name, i can't remember. he's a football coach. >> those kind of senators were very rare in the decades that joe biden served in the senate, ones that were just going for the cheap heats so to speak. most people were like john mccain, and they knew there was a deal that could be made to mauve the country forward. that's what joe biden yearns for, and that's why he is so discouraged at the atmosphere that is permeating the capital at this point in time. >> just one more thing to put on this part of the conversation. he is not willing to save institutions by blowing up institutions, and you can argue with that. we have that conversation a lot around here. he is not willing to annihilate the norm of the court or the

justice department by involving himself in either the fundamental makeup of the supreme court or the functions of the justice department. >> he asked for recommendations about reforming the supreme court, and he doesn't want to adopt them. >> yeah, that was a punt in the campaign to some extent. you heard him say he's worried it will make it more bipartisan. >> it's not how he's going to solve -- >> there's tremendous pressure in his party tad that. that's been another party of his patsy, the ways in which he has moved forward progressive principles and policies but the ways in which he's trying to guard against some of the impulses of his party's more extreme base in a way the republicans have not been. >> that isn't necessary ri a right left thing, liz cheney has been vocal in saying if donald trump isn't charged, there's no rule of law in america. it's not a more partisan part of his party. it's a more forward leaning rule of law caucus. >> absolutely and the constitution.

our founding fathers wanted to make sure there was compromise. most democracies, whatever legislative party wins the congressional elections, they're the executives. that is because they want that compromise,s founding fathers wanted it to be hard, and joe biden is willing to roll up his sleeves and do the hard part and, frankly, what the republicans want to do right now is just, you know, do performance plays about culture wars. they don't want to get anything done. they have nothing they're running on other than let's go back to a time that's different than this time and frankly, most americans don't want that. they want their freedoms. they don't want them to be taken away. >> i guess the challenge to use your word, the gas lighting on the right is so complete that the republicans are comfortable blowing up these institutions instead of fighting on the merits. >> right, and they actually

presuppose that joe biden and others were institutionists as they do it. >> and they use it to their advantage. >> exactly, so you dend the norms. we know there's a check and balance on your behavior. >> we know how far you'll go. >> so they taking advantage of the conservative that is evidence in the very -- >> mike memoli, we're so glad you're here today, thank you very much. >> i've never replaceds president, that was new experience for me. >> when i saw him sit in the chair, i was like we didn't get him a special chair. eddie and claire stick around a little longer. up for us. us, mor

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and an increased risk of infections or lowered ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to or if ibd symptoms develop or worsen. i move so much better because of cosentyx. ask your rheumatologist about cosentyx. you say this court is not normal. what did you mean. >> what i meant by that is it's done more to unravel basic rights and basic decisions than any courts in recent history. and that's what i meant by not normal. it's gone out of its way to -- i mean, for example, take a look at overruling roe v. wade, take a look at what the decision today. >> that was president joe biden reacting to the historic news that today the supreme court ended the practice of affirmative action in college admissions. it was a 6-3 decision. in it the court held that race

conscious admissions programs at harvard university and the university of north carolina are unconstitutional. joining you are coverage, danielle holly, a law school lar scholar, eddie and claire still with us. danielle, your first reaction and then i have a million questions for you. >> you know, i was really disappointed in today's decision. it was expected. there was no reason for them to take cert in this case unless they were planning to reverse 45 years of precedent and knowing that with a republican appointee writing just six years ago in the fisher case that you could use constitutionally race conscious affirmative action, in the fisher case six years ago, it was not a surprise what they did today. this is a typically ahistorical opinion that really turns the 14th amendment on its head and really labels the 14th amendment

about being about color blindness when we know that is not the historical origin of the 14th. it is a damaging way to read the constitution and to remove rights that have impacted so many people including people like myself. >> danielle, let me read you a little bit of justice sotomayor's dissent, entrenched racial inequality remains a reality today. ignoring race will not equalize a society that is racially unequal. what was true in the 1860s and again in 1954 is true today. equality requires acknowledgment of inequality. and i think what's notable is that until 2016, the supreme court was capable of acknowledging that reality. >> absolutely. i think the contrast between chief justice roberts saying we must end racial discrimination by ending all racial discrimination, and justice sotomayor and justice jackson really saying just because by legal fiat you tried to remove

race from the law does not mean that you're removing race from the reality of american life, and to know that i went to yale only a few decades after my mother lived in the jim crow south and was denied the ability to go to many colleges and universities, and that's the story of many americans. is affirmative action really stands for opening the door of opportunity. so today what the supreme court did is signaled they want colleges and universities to close the door of opportunity. the reactionreaction from colleges and universities say we stand by our decision. they can't force colleges and universities to abandon our values, even though they tied both hands behind our back. >> i want to read more from justice sotomayor's dissent on the other side of the break. t on the other side of the break. ♪♪

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that she's had to say it is remarkable to me. she had to say that in 2023. >> we want to look the other way. we might describe it -- call it structural racism. she's describing accumulated disadvantage and how that impacts people like me, coming from mississippi, the worst school system when i was growing up in the united states. luckily, i got into princeton. what do we do with accumulated disadvantage over accumulated advantage? you have to tell the truth if you are going to level the playing field. >> what do you think the bigger conversation -- come back to where the president went with this, about what this court is, how it's pushing against equality and progress. >> america is more than an idea. it's an argument, it's a fight. are you on the side of the abolitionist or the need women as equals to everyone or are you

on the side of folk having rights or are you the side of the ideals of the nation or those who want power and privilege? it's a fight. >> claire, i'm sorry you have to go after eddie. the president seemed to articulate an understanding of that. this is not about adding more seats and making it more political. it's about winning that fight. >> it's winning that fight. it is. it sucks to go after eddie. >> sorry. >> he is so good. he is so good. frankly, both the other panel members today, i need to probably be quiet and listen to them, because this is a moment that i think that people like them have a particular story to tell america. i think that john roberts today did a weird thing in his opinion. i was interested in the comments

that this was a real -- it's weird, this opinion is weird about the 14th amendment and particularly this thing about essays. what is that? you have to write an essay and tell them you are black and then it's okay to hopefully get more consideration? how is that ever going to be policed? there's real practical problems with this decision. i hope colleges and universities look past this decision and figure this out. beginning, they should quit giving people a seat at the table just because they have money or just because their parents went to that school. >> michelle obama made those points forcefully. thank you so much for spending time with us today. eddie sticks around into the next hour. on the other side, we will be joined. don't go anywhere. be joined don't go anywhere.

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my value set is very different than this new maga republican party. i really did -- look, i know you are going to think i'm naive here after all these years, but i have great faith in the instincts of the american people. i believe they are decent and honorable. if you appeal to them, they will do the right thing. >> it's 5:00 in new york. on this momentum day. the top of the last hour, we had a chance to speak with the country's commander in chief, president of the united states, joe biden. he spoke about his optimism, about how the country and the people in it ultimately do the right thing. he repeatedly said this is not your father's republican party. i think that was directed at me. he seemed intent on dismantling the -- republicans seem intent on dismantling norm after norm. his bet is that protecting those institutions and trusting the people in this country are what

will save it. the nation's foundational principles is what he says he is determined to fight to preserve, especially when it comes to the justice department. listen to what he told us about maintaining the independence of doj. >> i made a commitment that i would not in any way interfere with the justice department, who they prosecuted if they prosecuted how they proceeded. i have not spoken one single time with the attorney general on any specific case. not once. but i do talk to him about law enforcement. i have faith they will move in the direction consistent with the law. it may take time, but i have faith they will do -- i have not spoken about that. i don't think i should. >> joining me right now, two of my colleagues and friends. rachel madow and joy reid and

eddie glaude. it was not the same without our trio here. i'm glad you are here now. what did you think, rachel? >> mostly, i just have a question. how are you doing? you interviewed the president of the united states live on tv. and he hasn't done that with anybody the entire time he has been president. how are you doing? >> i said this to eddie in the break. it was not about me. i would not have minded an i.v. with something calming while it was happening. mike memoli was here. that's part of the story. he is clearly beginning the process of talking to the country. thanks mostly to the two of you. lots of people come to this network and watch. he is ready to put it out there. it's clear to me that he is not changing his bet. his bet is that the institutions are best saved by fighting to protect them and that include a supreme court that he describeed

today as not normal. his bet is if he can get to them -- had is the big wild card -- the american people will do the right thing. >> that's a continuity i noticed in this interview more than i noticed it before with his democratic predecessor, with barack obama. president obama used to articulate, particularly in interviews, when people were pushing him from the left about how bad the right has become and how radical the right has become, he would say, i have -- there are good republicans out there and i have faith in the american people. i believe if you speak to them as adults, they can make adult decisions. yes, things go sometimes haywire, but the american people have our compass north. you need to trust people. he took criticism of that, particularly from the left and i think particularly from the political press that has a more cynical and sometimes more dire view of that. president biden shares that with him. he really stuck by that on a

whole bunch of issues that you were pressing him on today. >> the supreme court moving and becoming something so different from his years in the judiciary committee -- he almost is a window into that. right? when i said casey and roe were decided by democratic and republican presidents, there was almost a groan. other than a message and a message to the country, joy, it didn't seem like there was much he thought he could do about this composition of the supreme court. >> first of all, i want to say, as usual, rachel put her finger on it. she said all of the things in my brain. i don't know how she does that. she's right about joe biden. but also about you. i was going to say the same thing. i took a picture of my screen of you talking with president biden. i actually fully enjoyed watching you interact with the president knowing that you among us, all of us gal pals, are the

one who has worked with a president and who knows and has that comfort level of sitting across from a president that actually almost made me go into your life and be like, this is what this lady was like dealing with a president. i was like, that was bad ass and amazing. i want to say, it was amazing watching you. i have that picture on my screen. i will send it to you. to rachel's point, the thing about joe biden that has always been fascinating, that's true about president obama, is that they are team normal. they are team institutions. you asked him -- he bragged about pulling nato together. he was very proud of that and of being able to go in and re-establish america's commitment to nato. he did say to you that expanding the court would only politicize it forever. he is like, institution, we will trust that institution can work. you asked him pointedly about the justice department, which

was so politicized by his predecessor. he was clear in saying, i'm not going to comment on cases about january 6. i'm not going to do anything that this previous president established as what presidents do. this is a nostalgia guy. he still seems to believe that the old ways that politics worked when his -- as he called him, my friend lindsey graham and he were pals. he thinks that these institutions can work. if he does normal politics and lets people see he is doing normal things, getting them roads and bridges and putting infrastructure money into their communities, that americans are mostly team normal. he has won on that bet. we may be cynical in the world in the media, but he has won on that bet. he has been in politics since he was 29. i think maybe he is on to something that maybe we can't see from where we are. i'm terrified, but he is not.

>> i think he is, joy. i think he is. but i think the tools that he is willing to use do not betray the institutions he reveres. >> yeah. >> which is interesting also. i think he is. i'm not sure -- i think that's why the questions don't elicit defensiveness. he is almost selling me on -- i haven't talked to the doj about anything. it's not going to break my promise. the question about the court isn't like, they're doing fine, it's like -- it's this restraint that i pick up. it's not that he is calmer than we are, joy. i think it's just that the faith in the institutions, which -- all four of us have covered the republican strategy of burning them down. desantis is running on tearing down -- literally and figuratively the fbi and sticking it somewhere else. he trusts not just the

institutions but the institutionalists running them. >> you know, the thing that's so interesting about how the news gods put this together, you have a supreme court that seemed determined to repeal the 20th century. they see the warren courts era. he was a republican whose court was defined by the idea that we were going to put certain rights on the table. that we were going to interpret the 14th amendment in such a way to say those who have been denied equality will receive it. that women will have control of their bodies. black kids can go to school. you can't have segregated and separate institutions for black people. the incredible forward movement of the 20th century, not just people like ron desantis, but this court, the majority on this court wants to repeal it out. they want to walk it all back and junk all of it.

to be president and to be such an institutionalist president at a time when the court has gone off the rails and has decided they have an ideological plan, and they're going to implement it constitutional text be damned, they will find a way to repeal this horrifying 20th century with all this equality and women out of control and black people demanding things they don't deserve, he is standing kind of in the middle of that. but the thing that seems to really keep bugging him is watching charlottesville happen. he brought that up with you again. seeing that shook him so much that he ran for president. to me, i see this sort of calm demeanor, and i don't know how he maintains it. maybe he is screaming inside the way i am on the outside. i don't know if his calm institutionalism can really withstand this just onslaught from the republican party

against all the advances of the 20th century all at once. >> he seemed eager, rachel, to tie our fight here to the fight that he is on the front lines for, pulling nato together, growing nato, strengthening nato. when you ask about the events in russia, he pulled himself. did you wonder what trump would have done with everything you knew ahead of time? he dodged all four corners of that question. he is constantly underestimated. he keeps going. what he has done with nato -- i remember when trump was traveling through europe and they kept telling us off the record -- i was on "morning joe" with you. it's this morning, take it live, he will affirm -- trump didn't want to be part of nato. biden hasn't just reassured the

allies, he has expanded and strengthened nato. >> you are going to forgive me for doing transcript theater from an interview you just completed. i got the transcript. forgive me. he says, putin has one objective, split the west. if he did that, we are in real trouble. we have been able to hold everything together. then we get to the part where you are asking him about you don't use putin's name, but that's what you are asking him about. question, can you tell us what you knew ahead of time would happen in russia? president biden, i can't tell you that. we knew things ahead of time. question. did you worry trump might have tipped him off. answer, president biden. oh, god, i don't know. he is talking about it without using trump's name. he is talking about standing up to putin. the broader thing that he is

talking about linking this foreign policy to what joy is talking about, he is talking about democracy versus authoritarianism. it's not he is saying the right are combatants and he is not. he is not an institutionalist just playing defense. he is saying what we stand for is democracy and the institutions of democracy. an independent justice department. a non-politicized court. he doesn't want to expand it. standing up for our nato allies in ukraine, because the fascist government of russia is marching on them. he is saying, i'm a combatant and what i stand for is democracy. what we will stand up for and not only lead by example, but we're going to protect with all our might despite any prevailing winds, are the institutions that make democracy work. that means standing up for doj

and a non-politicized court and voluntary alliances against fascism. he is saying, i will be the leader of the free world. you may not like i'm not willing to get down in the mud and battle with the authoritarians, but i'm not going to dismantle democracy. >> i think that's the best articulation of how he is treating things that can look passive. right? it's not passive that he is not calling merrick garland and saying, where are you? he is saying, if the justice department does or doesn't do something, it will be stronger if he has never touched it, if he can say in the end, if trump is convicted, i never talked to merrick garland about any of this, that it's not passive, it is not weak that these are in -- it's a real mature form of leadership that i don't think any of us is accustom to watching.

>> he is talking about having -- he literally said, i have faith. i have faith the justice department will move in a direction that's consistent with the law. it may take time. i have faith. i have not spoken about that. i don't think i should. i have faith in democratic institutions. i am not going to mess them up. you asked him explicitly. it was a good turn in the interview when you said, you are going to run against republicans who are running saying, they will direct prosecution, they will interfere with the justice department, we don't have independent rule of law and we shouldn't. he says, i have faith in the american people that they, too, like me will side with democracy. it is not passive but it's a form of being stoic. i think in the media and for those of our viewers who see themselves to the left of biden, i think it's your place at this

moment to throw stones at that and try to shake him. but he is very clear on who he is. it's not something that's evolving over time. he is standing for these institutions. >> is it the right bet, eddie? >> i'm not sure, to be honest with you. i think rachel's description is spot on. one way to describe it is that he is defending the post world war ii consensus. he is defending that world that some people might call the world that was created in the context of the age of reagan. the old liberalism. those on his left are really, really suspicious in the sense that, what has been revealed over these last few years are the contradictions that have defined our way of life. part of the work that has to be done in the midst of defending institutions is to recognize who my political opponents are. he does that. also, kind of give us vision work. not just double down on what was

but give us some language about what could be if we double down on our commitment to the basic principles of american democracy. >> i think if you talk to democratic activists, some of the great disappointments are not pushing and fighting and obliterating some of the norms like the filibuster to pass voting rights. while it's not passive, it's adherence to the norm. it resulted in almost 500 voter suppression laws passing. it has consequences. >> for me, people -- i understand what joy was saying. in the midst of the stoic response, there are people who are catching hell, who have to bear the brunt of it. thinking about in the context of those defending institutions as the country is imploing and trying to defend those

institutions while you have anti-democratic actors threatening to secede. we can go on and on. there's one thing to double down on institutions. there's another thing for those who are bearing the brunt of the betrayal. what does it mean to fight for the america he is giving voice to? >> how do you think that plays out? >> i don't know. i'm looking at the numbers with regard to 18 to 29, not only among black voters but hispanic, white. i'm looking at those numbers. i'm worried about them. the biden economic thing, that's going to work. he has to get out there and really kind of sell the message so that the constituenies can understand he is not just an institutionalist. >> my friends, i'm going to ask

you to stick around. this is helpful. i need it today. we have to take a quick break. more coming up with rachel, joy and eddie. we will turn to 2024 politics and ron desantis' dodge about january 6. how he finds himself on the receiving end of a particularly potent attack from chris christie of ending rubio's campaign fame. aign fame. hi, i'm katie. i live in flagstaff, arizona. i'm an older student. i'm getting my doctorate in clinical psychology. i do a lot of hiking and kayaking. i needed something to help me gain clarity. so i was in the pharmacy and i saw a display of prevagen and i asked the pharmacist about it. i started taking prevagen and i noticed that i had more cognitive clarity. memory is better. it's been about two years now and it's working for me. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. moving this summer?

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golo is different than other programs i had been on because i was specifically looking for something that helped with insulin resistance. i had had conversations with my physician indicating that that was probably an issue that i was facing and making it more difficult for me to sustain weight loss. golo has been more sustainable. i can fit it into family life, i can make meals that the whole family will enjoy. it just works in everyday life as a mom. we are back. rachel, i once described the biden economy as the rodney

dangerfield economy that doesn't get any respect. the economy is much, much better. he doesn't get respect. forget about the right. they are determined in putting out the most negative messages. there are a lot of americans hurting. but where things are better, he doesn't get credit for that either. >> it's true of lots of different presidents who preside over good or improving economies. bad news is seen as news. good news is seen as something you don't need to worry about, therefore, you don't need to talk about it. the only people who want to talk about it are the people who are responsible for it who can never get the news media interested in it. it's a difficulty -- it's a first world problem for a president to be overseeing an improving economy to not get credit. but the biden administration is doing that. they are trapped in that same mess. you really saw it yesterday when

president biden gave his bidenomics speech. there's a lot in there poe lit -- politically potent. the press covers the speech and is like, we saw the marks on his face from using a c-pap machine, which is something that's been in his medical records for years if not decades. that becomes the story of the day about president biden instead of his economic speech. i do think it's a hard road for every president who is in the same economic situation he is in. they haven't figured out a way to trick the press into covering it. >> one of their human tricks that's effective is to catch the republicans running on their stuff after they voted against it. it's like getting a toddler to eat vegetables. you need a human trick to get them to do it. i almost pulled his chair back in because he was so chatty

about the old republicans. he mentioned six republicans who have privately told him they are with him and if they said it, they wouldn't get primaries. joy, this is really shameless. mitch mcconnell had the brazenness to -- he voted for the infrastructure bill. travel with biden to promote the package, but you want to know how popular some of his stuff is, it's so popular that even republicans want to go with him to tout it. >> i love the fact that whatever is running the white house twitter account is pretty brilliant. they go dark every time they try to take credit. they go fully dark brandon on them and it's fabulous. the challenge with legislation is that you pass it and the next day nothing happens. it takes six months for those projects to come online. it takes a year before the money starts flowing in and people see

to shovels. i spoke with governor whitmer about this. the legislation, the broadband and the infrastructure stuff, that's going in place now. there's a lagging indicator. the other issue that politicians have is that people don't judge the economy based on the data. we have the lowest unemployment rate since the 1960s. we have -- if you look at the macro and micro economy data, the economy is go. what people do is they judge it based on their personal circumstances. i have a job but i don't like it. i hate my supervisor. therefore, the economy is terrible. i have a job, but my rent is high. that has nothing to do with joe biden. but i think the economy is terrible. when a pollster calls and the few people who answer, my rent is too high, my job doesn't pay enough, i can't stand my supervisor, i'm having a bad day. all of that goes into your vibe

and your mood. presidents are like the quarterback. they get judged on the mood, not on the data. it's a problem for every president. president obama had this issue, too. he is bringing the economy back from the great recession. yet, he didn't get any credit because people were mad about other things. right now people are disgruntled about a lot. there's a lot of fear out there. there's a lot of fear among women, young women about whether or not a pregnancy could result in the end of their economic opportunity ever if they live in a red state or they have to flee because they need an abortion. black folks who are feeling like we are back in the 1950s, the sense of threat of white supremacist violence is palpable. if you are a kid, it's terrifying to go to fourth grade. people are afraid of getting shot. the vibe is so on edge that it's hard for president biden to get credit for the things he has done that are actually popular.

i think it's partly the press. he gave a little press critique in there. he does talk about the way the press covers politics like it's a sport. which i have a problem with, too. most people in the media, we aren't economists. i took one semester in college. if people don't really know the details, so it's boring to describe. it's easier to do the c-pap story. that plays into an existing narrative about biden's age and whether he is healthy. it's easy. i think people take the easy route. jay rosen critiques us for that. covering economics is difficult. you have to find the right expert to talk to. it's not the most scintillating television. the media is in a sense partly to blame, because good news about gas prices being down is not as exciting as bad news about it being 5 bucks. he is in that position that all politicians wind up in, especially when the economy is actually good. so there's not a lot of scintillating news to give up.

>> it's a good point. without revealing anyone's identity, anyone that loved anyone with sleep apnea doesn't think it's a big deal. it's a big step, to put that thing on. usually, it comes after years of being harassed by the person that sleeps next to you and hears you almost die. i'm going to recuse from that whole story. >> amen. >> i asked memoli about it. this is the distance -- there's this white house press corps, and then there's -- they are curating the stories and our focus is on threats to democracy. there's a clear exaspiration with the nose against the glass press. i wonder if you think there's anything to take from a broader conversation. it's interesting if he shows up on "gma" tomorrow and "joy reid"

and -- all presidents try to go around their press corps. mike memoli is one of the best and so is the entire nbc white house group. >> i think what's interesting, remember mike said that he pays attention to his coverage more than we would think. he said it seems as if they are trying to trial run some things. he is on this show. he might be on "gma." they will let biden be biden. maybe that's a good thing. the fourth estate, to use it in a technical way, is just as distorted as the other states in our society. it seems to me that part of what he has to do is to figure out how to grab the attention of a public that seems not able to pay attention to things very long and for a very long period of time. maybe being on your show or coming into these spaces, that might help. i'm not sure if it will.

let's try. >> it doesn't hurt. rachel, i want to give you the last word. there's this piece about the press where it's so uncomfortable to talk about ourselves, which is just probably mostly good. it means that we don't very openly sort of analyze and correct ourselves. i think he gave upening. i jumped at it. i love hearing what the people we cover think about how we do it. it seemed to be almost like a warning. don't miss the big stuff. i get that you have to ask me about my sleep apnea device. which i didn't, because for personal reasons. he seemed to almost be saying, there's big stuff at stake. i wonder if you think that resonates. >> yeah, it was important to me in terms of understanding what he meant with that bit of press critique he brought up. he talked about reporters coming to him and speaking to him in a personal capacity, not professional, and saying they are not -- they don't have proper editing structure the way they used to and they are

advised to have good brands rather than doing their work in a more traditional way. the time in your interview when he brought that up was when he was saying that a lot of people in the press and a lot of politicos were giving him a hard time for wanting to talk about democracy and the rule of law, for wanting to go do that speech in philadelphia where he talked about the big small d democracy issues and the threats to democracy in our country. he said, that wasn't something that the political press and his -- it was implied his advisers wanted him to do. but the public cared and they responded positively to it. he was, i think, suggesting the press is out of touch with public opinion and there's an insular bubble in terms of the way the press has its own culture that's out of touch with what americans think about, too. he thinks he has a better finger on the pulse than the press does in terms of what americans care about, what they are paying attention to, what they are

capable of absorbing and what will drive their votes. we will see. he has been consistently electorally underestimated. that's a good indicator for his side. that's about to get a real test. >> to your point, he is correct. democracy and choice ended up being far greater drivers of the midterm results that were by every measure disappointing for republicans than anything that the media or the pollsters predicted. i'm not saying he will be right again. i think you are right about where that comment came in. he did say that you weren't. of course, we welcome anyone that uses the d word. we will cover you when you say democracy. the idea that when he did it people were like, what is he talking about, is correct. it's worth looking back. it's the second most issue to democratic voters and top three

for independent voters as we sort of get into the start of the presidential election season. >> yeah. i think that's right. again, this is -- it's good to have all these different perspectives on his conversation with you. again, it is striking that it is happening on this day when we have lost this pillar of american legal support for equality under the law and for equal opportunity under the law. i think this president is taking the long view. i think that he is an institutionalist, as eddie said. i think the question of our time is whether or not an institutionalist provides the kind of vision that america needs at a time when a lot of americans feel themselves to be in crisis. i think he is talking in the most pragmatic terms that he knows. he gets frustrated that the press doesn't always see those things as pragmatic. he sees it as resonating with

the american people. that's the real test and that's because we have a democracy. this is a good day to have this conversation with him. i think it was an important conversation. >> thank you so much. it's always a good day to talk to both of you. if for no other reason that i got a half an hour out of both of your days, thank you very much. thanks for being here. eddie sticks around longer. we will shift gears to 2024 politics. a war of words between republicans and other republicans over the deadly january 6 insurrection. don't go anywhere.

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if this election is about biden's failures and our vision for the future, we are going to win. if it's about relitigating things that happened two, three years ago, we're going to lose. i wasn't anywhere near washington that day. i have nothing to do with what happened that day. obviously, i didn't enjoy seeing what happened. but we have to go forward on this stuff. we cannot be looking backwards and bemired in the past. >> leave it to that guy to run and hide from history or suggest to know history you have to have been on location. we aren't the only ones. in response to those comments, chris christie, a candidate developing a reputation for

saying what everyone is thinking, said this. >> he wasn't anywhere near washington. did he have a tv? was he alive that day? did he see what was going on? that's one of the most ridiculous answers i have heard in this race so far. you don't have an opinion about january 6? except to say, i didn't particularly enjoy what happened. people were killed. >> it's not a strong statement. >> people were killed. donald trump the entire time sat outside the oval office in that dining room of his eating a well-done cheeseburger and watching tv and doing nothing to stop what was going on until it got to the point where even he could no longer stand it and he finally at 4:00 something in the afternoon put out a video. ron desantis doesn't have any opinion on that? >> joining our conversation, tim miller, plus charlie sykes.

both are msnbc contributors. eddie is still here. we are holding him hostage today. charlie sykes -- actually, all of us have had this conversation. if you look back at chris christie's role in enabling trump, it is always part of the story. chris christie's most dramatic moment in the 2016 campaign cycle was ending marco rubio's dream of being the president of the united states on a debate stage. to watch him take his prosecutorial and political skills and wield them against donald trump -- i forget if we are going by desantis or desantis -- he hasn't settled on a pronunciation yet -- it is something. >> it is. two things. chris christie is all out of bleeps to give here. ron desantis is very bad at this. chris christie is very, very good at this, despite all of the baggage. ron desantis cannot bring himself to pull the trigger. he has a sign behind him saying, restore sanity. what is he talking about?

what are you talking about? who is the insane person here? why are we restoring insanity? he ties himself in knots. he engaged in these elaborate dances. chris christie just called him out, just directly said, you weren't there, you didn't watch it, you didn't know what happened? it's not a matter of whether you enjoyed it or not. people died that day. again, in the republican primary, given the mentality of the republican primary voter, that's probably not going to score chris christie a lot of points. it's interesting to watch the contrast between these two guys, chris christie bringing this blunt fire and ron desantis being unable to express an opinion without tieing himself around the axle. >> tim, what i remember about republican politics may be totally irrelevant at this point. that's how old i am.

trump is defined among the republican primary electorate. so chris christie being sort of at odds with him will be a headwind for him. for desantis, it's definitional. people know what he is and they know a little of what he has done in florida. his image is less than when they knew him just as the governor of florida. he is introducing himself to a national audience. chris christie has a an opportunity to define him in ways that are negative. >> i look at this. i have two minds of it. thank goodness, somebody is speaking the truth. you want to say alleluia, a republican, not gaslighting us about january 6. it's refreshing to see. you want to cheer about it. the thing that worries me on the other hand after that initial emotional response is, we did live through this in 2016, which was chris christie not being

effective at taking on donald trump, but effectively killing marco rubio. if you are of the view that i am that there are a lot of problems in the republican party, that there's one existential threat and that's donald trump getting near the white house and that's the existential threat, does having somebody like chris christie just bowling over and defining somebody like ron desantis, who is not good at this as charlie said, does that help or hurt? it's tough. i think it's confusing. on the merits, he is right. but i think it's something to watch. i hope if chris christie is on this mission, it's a kamikaze mission to take out donald trump. >> i think it's an open question. i think desantis has a white paper on destroying the fbi, dismantling it, taking it out of washington and turning it into the arm of a political white house.

ron desantis -- >> i was listening to tim. trump is an existential threat. desantis is an existential threat. the republican party is an existential threat. it seems to me that if republicans, whether they are in the party or outside of the party, are going to decide to tell the truth, they need to tell the truth so republicans -- a republican doesn't get ahold of the white house, it seems to me. >> tim, you want to respond? >> well, i think you can grade out different types of threats. donald trump has tried a coup. we can all hash this out. we have a full year to hash this out. donald trump is the only one that tried a coup. i would like for him to be as far away from the white house as possible. one man's opinion. sure, look, if chris christie were to bowl over both those guys and become the nominee, despite my problems with chris

christie, besides all of his failings, i would say, heck yeah. i want to caution that chris christie is success it wilfully on everybody but donald trump. i don't love it. >> charlie, jump in here. >> it won't surprise you i agree with tim. i think donald trump is a unique existential threat, despite how deplorable ron desantis is. he is also right, you don't want chris christie to take out the rivals. chris christie is able to walk and chew gum. he has been absolutely merciless in his attacks on trump. he is talking about january 6. one of the things i hope he can do is more the window of -- for the other candidates, their willingness to criticize and call out donald trump for the attempt to overturn the election and for inciting the insur

insurrection. if he can push other republicans, then i think that it might break through. the odds are stacked against him. but donald trump is the apex predator. i think as i watch chris christie, i think the big question is, can he draw blood from the apex predator? can he make him stumble? will that then bring other republicans out of the weeds to do something that they have not done so far? tim is right. it's a danger that chris christie on that debate stage without donald trump, is he going to be able to restrain himself from taking out everybody else like he took out rubio. that's a legitimate point. >> i cried no tears when marco was eliminated from the republican field. let me read something from our friend myles taylor. about what a second -- this goes to the point that both of you are making about trump as an existential threat. why a second trump

administration would be worse. the police answer and tell you before dispatching the nearest squad car, they have to check your voter registration. republicans get priority, democrats have to wait. now picture this on a national scale. under the next trump, dhs might respond to emergencies in red states. but hold out on blue states until they capitulate to white house demands. this is how he wanted to handle the disbursement of disaster aid. i remember that. i remember when the hurricane hit port uerto rico. >> look, he has been very explicit that he wants to punish those who held him to account. so i understand -- i think -- i can concede tocharlie, he is the apex predator. it's important to not just exceptionalize donald trump. he is the tip of the problem. i know charlie and tim know this.

we have to be able to say, we don't want chris christie to make it possible for him to get to the white house, but we have to be able to say that desantis and nikki haley, that it's equally dangerous. >> it's part of the political gangrene on the right. it's all sick. eddie, thank you for being here two hours. i'm grateful to you. thanks to you for spending time with us today. when we come back, there's breaking news about the january 6 investigation and a rioter arrested near the home of president barack obama. that's next. e home of president barack obama that's next. i'm saving with liberty mutual, mom. they customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. check it out, you could save $700 dollars just by switching. ooooh, i'll look into that. let me put a reminder on my phone. save $700 dollars. pick up dad from airport? ohhhhhh. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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there's some breaking news to tell you about from the last hour. a man who stormed the capitol during the january 6th insurrection was arrested near the home of former president barack obama and former first lady michelle obama. 37-year-old taylor was arrested by metropolitan police and federal law enforcement in northwest d.c. mpd said he was arrested under an outstanding warrant, and he has been charged with being a fugitive from justice. he's a supporter of ex-president donald trump, and an nbc news review of his telegraph account show his last post was a link to conspiracy theories about the obamas' home. we will follow this story closely and bring you the details as we have them. y closely and bring you the details as we have them. tourists that turn into scientists. tourists taking photos that are analyzed by ai. so researchers can help life underwater flourish.

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finally, for us, a major milestone that ties into just about everything we covered on the broadcast today. president joe biden along with democrats in the senate have confirmed their 100th federal district court judge. that's a faster pace than republicans could manage under the previous administration and a big achievement. many of the newly confirmed judges have backgrounds in civil rights, and democrats are hopeful they will help realize president biden's plans to remake the federal judiciary for years to come. something he talked about here with us today. another break for us. we'll be right back. s today. another break for us we'll be right back.

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>> announcer: you're watching msnbc. thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times, especially today. we're grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hi, friend. >> hi, nicole. we've asked you and i'll do the spoiler and say you've agreed to stay over and be our first guest tonight, so first, thank you for that. >> of course. >> we watched your interview, newsworthy, with great interest on this newsworthy day. i will tell you when we are less busy, we can get to your billy joel lyric references, which we appreciate around here. but in all seriousness, congratulations on a new