and then sort of went down rabbit hole where he'll just post off that he finds online. so he will surge around everything that he can find about this. and then there's something that he -- he found something about tunnels being around. he thought that the protesters lived around there and that there were underground tunnels. so you know, he's -- his video has been replaced where he's just going around the fires about the above home and he finds a backpack, the backpack had been abandoned a while. back he's searches through it, and then he started saying, they're coming at one point and the livestream sort of cuts out. so this is -- someone who just really a troubled individual i think that clearly he has some deeper issues going on here. >> ryan riley, as always, thank you for your reporting. that is all in for this week. alex wagner tonight starts right now with a man what mohyeldin, in for alex. good night,. amen >> goodnight, chris. i was watching your opening segment i was thinking how

ironic it is that your -- the justice says when they're nominate and they're going through the confirmation process, they say we don't like to comment on hypothetical cases. and it was watching the opening segment and it was -- like no one is aggrieved, there actually is no case here, but they have no problem making decisions about hypothetical cases if, that, say someone one day was aggrieved. >> that's a great point. they re-found their ability to weigh in on high post. >> exactly. great show as always, my friend. great to see, you enjoy the rest of your evening off. and thanks to at-home for joining us tonight. alex has the night off. i'm filling in for her this evening. but we begin tonight with the supreme court. and his name was jerome rebels he was born in 1827 he was a minister in the amy church. he served as a chaplain for the army for the american civil war. and in 1870, he was elected by the mississippi legislator to the united states senate believe it or not. the first ever black man sent it to either body of congress

in our country's history was him. and it's sort of hard to imagine that today mississippi was the first state to send a black man to the u.s. congress. but they did, and they did it all the way back in 1870. they did i and then believe it or not, an 1875, they did it again. the mississippi legislator said blanche k bruise to the united states senate. that's the second time ever a black man was elected to that chamber. and you're probably wondering why or how that happened. the reason mississippi was actually able to make history like that all the way back in the 1870s was because of reconstruction. after the civil war, mississippi was forced to adopt a bunch of new laws and franchising the states newly-freed black citizens. and those laws allowed the states black man to vote in free and fair elections for the first time in history. and that's what they produced. it was real historic progress

in the american south on an incredible time scale. and as you can imagine, the backlash to it was just as swift. in 1890, aggrieved wide lawmakers in mississippi, they passed a new state constitution, disenfranchising black voters with poll taxes. literacy tests a bunch of other stuff designed to make it harder for black people to vote. it was one of the nation's first ever jim crow laws. and while parts of the constitution were dunaway but the civil rights era, other parts remained in place. they continue to disenfranchise black voters in mississippi. there was one amendment in that constitution that had a rule, barring people convicted of certain crimes from. voting crimes that black citizens were disproportionately convicted of having committed. flash forward to -- brought a challenge to that

law. a challenge that basically wound its way all the way up to the u.s. supreme court. all the way up to today. the conservative majority of the supreme court. the super majority of the supreme court, decided that they would actually not hear the challenge to that law. they decided to allow it to remain on the books. in a blistering dissent, justice ketanji brown jackson quoted one of the authors of that 1890 jim crow law, justice jackson writes the president of the 1890 mississippi constitutional convention said it plain, let us tell the truth if it bursts the bottom of the universe. we came here to exclude the knee grow. nothing short of this will answer. just as johnson goes on to say that constitutional wrongs do not write themselves. with its failure to take action, the court has missed yet another opportunity to learn from its mistakes. so on the one hand it might be

surprising that the supreme court did not take up this case. but it comes amid a flurry of other controversial rulings by the court in just the past two days. i mean yesterday just yesterday the court ruled back the clock on college admissions by ending affirmative action from college applicants. but apparently that did not go far enough in making it harder for disenfranchised communities to go to college because today, well, the courts conservatives issued another damning decision, and doing student loan forgiveness for tens of millions of americans who could not afford college on their own. and to top all of that off to day in the court, they issued another ruling overturning a colorado law that provided businesses from discriminating against lgbtq americans. in doing, so the court basically opened the door to the court this commission to gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people across the country. happy pride month everyone!

but in ruling after ruling, the conservatives on this court have work to turn back the clock on the rights of disenfranchised citizens in this country. just go down the risk from abortion, rights to voting, where it's from the right to win fair -- sexual orientation, even gender identity. this court has made its essential mission to undo progress wherever it sees it. we are going to talk about all of those decisions throughout this hour but i want to start tonight with the big picture. how does america deal with a reactionary court dead set on turning back the clock and what, if anything can be done to stop? it joining us now is melissa murray, and why you law professor and co host of the strict scrutiny broadcast. he's also an msnbc contributor. also with us is mark joseph stern, senior writer at slate. covering the courts and law.

melissa, i'll start with. you just kind of the big picture takeaway of what we saw unfold today. people on the surface may think of these cases being very different on the issues that they tackle even though they are hypothetical as we said, with chris there. but there is a connective tissue between all of them, as i was sort of outlined there. do you see that as well, that there is a common theme between all of these cases? a common th>> i think is a come before tween the cases beside the storm and last term especially dobbs. basically we're seeing a court world back the protections that make it possible, indeed facilitate the process of a multiracial, multi ethnic democracy. education, reproductive rights, financial security, all of these things that we need in order to be in a democracy that is inclusive and includes everyone. and that seems to be the thing the court is railing against. and to be very clear we had a bar burner of a term last year. and particularly the rhythms of the supreme court are such that -- >> won?

what >> we had a big, when you take a breather. but we had -- this year. it looks like a ship being off to have a barber and a return next year and one of the questions the american people have to ask is, how many bonds are there left to burn or is this court just intent on bringing it all down? >> to your point, this is marked the roberts court. so i guess my question to you is the legacy of the roberts court now going to be about undoing the progress that has been made throughout the 21st century? >> that will absolutely be a big part of john roberts legacy that not only will he [inaudible] but affirmative action and the very notion of diversity is a laudable and calling gold that the government can pursue through raised conscious measures and now through the 303 creative decision that gay and lesbian americans have a right to equal access in the marketplace, all of those principles have now been bulldozed in an extraordinarily

short period of time. and i think that in addition to rolling back the clock, john roberts is reasserting himself and his court as the chief decision-maker in this country. the supreme court is very much the number one policy making body of the nation. and the chief justice through these decisions's remaining, as congress can pass whatever laws it likes the president can roll out whatever programs he wants. the states can experiment. but at the end of the day we will be the ones to decide what you can do. we will be the ones to say the meaning of the constitution and to overthrow andy contrary ideas that you try to implement in the name of democracy. and i think that is a frightening message that the chief could not have sent louder or clear in this term. >> i want to ask you specifically about the 303 case if i can and the free speech argument was. made and i understand that that is placed individuals but then when you get to the position of a business how does the business have a free speech

right, so to speak? >> that's a terrific question, amen. just as gorsuch today spoke in the opinion -- that requires anyone doing business in the public sphere is akin to requiring them to adopt the states message in antidiscrimination. but that's not really the case. she can -- >> it's a bit of a stretch. >> lori smith if you were actually making websites for individuals which is still an open question, she could simply have her evangelical beliefs and she could talk about them and she could espouse them as she wanted to, but the point that colorado makes is, when you decide to enter the public marketplace and provide services, you must do it for everyone who seeks those services without fair favor for any particular group. and the court today said no that's basically antidiscrimination laws the state making you adopt and anti-discrimination message. so that should be chilling to anyone in the united states who's from a group that historically has been disenfranchised, that has been

under represented, that has been discriminated against because it means that regardless of these anti-discrimination protections which exist primarily on the state level, there's not necessarily broad protections for sexual orientation on the federal level, all of these state level laws are now in question because simply individuals can say this violates my right to free speech, it's a compelled message that the state is making me adopt, and the court has essentially blessed that. >> mark, these justices weather again going through the confirmation process talked about how there are precedents and so many of these cases are settled law and they've totally abandoned a lot of that but the biggest one being roe v. wade. how dangerous, if at, all are the presidents being said by these cases? what implications do they have for other rights as melissa was just talking to? thinking about not just gay rights but other minority rights now. you could get someone who says it is their religious belief not to provide services because someone is involved in an interracial marriage, or

because someone is muslim or jewish? >> exactly. there's no limiting principle in [inaudible] that restricts the scope of this decision to lgbtq people. it seems that it applies across the board to all kind of protective traits. and so one question justice scott mayer asked is, the famous case both on fire motel, when the motel argued that it had a right not to serve black people, would that case come out differently if the hotel had said, we feel that allowing black people to stay in our rooms is an expression of support for their identities and their lives. and i think that's very much a groping question. so we focus on these edge cases, the florist, the baker, whatever. but this decision patients way past that into the realm of all manner of public accommodation laws, as justice or to make our points. out expressive conduct is

everywhere after you look for. at the very active serving a customer can be expressive, even if you weren't creating anything for them. so i do think that interracial couples, religious minorities, women, all kinds of people who faced discrimination have to wonder now, have to second guess, if i seek services from this business, is there a chance they will say, sorry but my free speech right allows me to discriminate against you? and as justice or mayor says, that in itself -- the fact that the court issued this degree stems a badge of inferiority on, as all minorities who will face the tragedy of this decision. and again, what a different five years makes, that just a few years ago this court was expanding rights to the rest of the country they -- masterpiece pick shop. this is the inevitable result of brexit kavanaugh and amy cohen barrett joining this

court. and this is only the beginning of this new line of presidents. we will see how far it will balance. but this is the dawn of a new era in politics. >> did you want to say anything in response? >> mark said something that's interesting here in a goes to the question of what's expressive conduct. ultimately in this, opinion -- five of his colleagues thinks is expressive. and that's another theme that you see in the student loan cases as well. they are the court says, where there is an issue of major salient, a major question so to speak, it is not up to congress to simply delegate that authority to an administrative agency to make the decision that they're gonna act on these major questions. congress must specifically delegate authority to address that particular question, here student loan relief, to the administrative agency. but the question of what is a major question is ultimately a question that can only be answered by this court. so in this this decision and in through three creative, the person who is one here is this institution. the court that gets to say what is speech what is a major

question, and what is the extent of their impact on their lives. >> it was good to say to mark's point, which is a sad final summer you here, it seems that the supreme court is legislating these issues. you had an affirmative action case brought by billionaires, you had the student loan forgiveness case, not broad for advice students, and in both cases the supreme court is making a decision that affects millions. melissa murray, thank you so much. mark joseph stern, thank you very. much thank you for your insights and analysis. we have a lot more to get to tonight. the biden administration claps back at the supreme court decision striking down its plan to forgive students. what the president already unveiling his plan b. and later, and use that yet another trump insider is now cooperating with the special counsel probe. what does this mean for the investigation into the former president? stay with us. stay with us hi, i'm katie. i live in flagstaff, arizona. i'm an older student. i'm getting my doctorate in clinical psychology. i do a lot of hiking and kayaking. i needed something to help me gain clarity.

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million people have already been approved. the money was literally are about to go out the door. and then republican elected officials and special interest stepped in. they said, no no. let me be clear. republicans in congress, it's not about reducing the deficit, it's not about fairness and forgiving loans. it's only about forgiving loans they have to pay. today, the supreme court sided with them. i believe the court's decision to strike down my stern belief

program as a mistake, it was wrong. i think the court misinterpreted the constitution. >> the court misinterpreted the constitution. that is just a part of president biden's response to the supreme courts at the 63 ruling today. striking down biden's student debt forgiveness program. last, year the president announced a plan to forgive up to $20,000 in debt for individuals with incomes below a certain threshold, largely in keeping with the 2020 campaign promise. but today, in the courts majority opinion. just as chief -- like the one that biden proposed had to be approved by congress. but this congress but the republican majority in the house and a thinner than wafer thin democratic majority in the senate, this congress has voted against biden's student debt plan as recently as this month. just 29 days ago they senate voted on party lines to terminate the student debt relief program. that was just a week after the

house voted the same way on the same measure. also in the largely party line vote. biden swiftly vetoed the congressional tent and his student debt relief program. but today after the supreme court debt the final blow to his plan, the president took it out not just at the port but at republicans. those in congress who have seemingly made it through mission, this year, to make sure that student loan recipients pay up every penny despite the fact that these republicans the when you see right there on the screen have benefited from a certain low forgiveness program themselves. >> we've all supported the paycheck protection program, remember? ppp. you know who it was designed to help the owners who lost money because of the pandemic -- let's be clear, at the same elected republicans, members of congress who strongly oppose getting -- gate hundreds of thousands of dollars themselves. republican officials say

student loan relief was giving way to the privilege. you hear that loud. now the privilege. i love the concern for the privilege. >> wow. well, biden screen criticism and republican lawmakers and conservative jurist who stymied his original plan, they might resonate with the 16 million americans already approved for debt forgiveness. biden did not stop. they're in another part of his response to the supreme court ruling today, biden actually laid out a plan. a plan b. watch. >> i'm announcing today a new path consistent with the -- to provide student debt relief to as many boroughs as possible, as quickly as possible. we will ground this new approach in my regional plan. the so-called higher education act. that will allow secretary cardona, who is with me today, to compromise, wave, or release loans under circumstances who are not gonna waste any time on

this. we're gonna move on. it's gonna take longer, but we're gonna get at it right away. >> joining me now, democratic congresswoman from pennsylvania some really, a vocal advocate for student debt forgiveness who comes at the issue of with her own personal story of grappling but student debt. congresswoman louis it's good to have. you thank you so much for making time for us. let's start with this plan be announced today by president biden that he will use the 1965 higher education act to pursue student debt forgiveness for a second time. we are still awaiting more details and disclosure, but he said the plan is already underway. and it's kind of hard to forget president trump because he tried multiple times to implement a number of draconian immigration restrictions including the infamous muslim ban. and he did so by executive order. should joe biden use trump as a sort of inverse model for this kind of white house policy fight? >> listen, my hope is we use

whatever leverage point every single tool that we have at our disposal to move on this issue. there is a lot of noise about how important student debt relief is. there's a contingent of folks who want us to believe that student debt relief is something that is going to benefits some far off elite that is just lazy people who don't want to pay their own debts but the reality is, a, student loan debt is predatory, the people who are most impacted or the very people who were just harmed by the supreme court ruling in the affirmative action cases. black students particularly. marginalized students carry those burdens. we know that when we help students were actually helping our economy, we're helping our entire country. and it's a promise that our president has to keep because he made it to our voters who came out enthusiastically. we want to make sure that we're showing those american voters those students who have flown dead millions of us that our

party, our democratic party, our president, our government cares about us. and we're going to fight, we are going to use everything. so listen, whether it's executive action, or it's through the 88 we want to make sure that we're using everything to tackle this right now. >> he set us, us twice. let me ask you about your personal experience. you only have a handful of the 435 members of the house who carry student loan debt. you were among them. you spoken before about how much that you carry affects every decision you make in your life, how are you feeling today? and you have hope that president biden can actually get this done for you and others? >> i feel discouraged. i, like so many other people watching these cases come down, we feel discouraged. we feel deflated. that's what we're supposed to feel. that's our immediate reaction. this is what the court -- this is what the robbers court, this is what the republican party has been fighting for it to make us feel isolated, to make us feel like we're running

out of options. that's what's on point that president biden speaks directly to us today. as somebody who had very little hope of ever being free of this debt, and there's so many more who might not even get the opportunity to attend colleges because of the supreme court ruling. there's gonna be generations particularly a black women who are going to languish, whose brilliance will never be honed because of these rules, because of this ongoing fight to ensure that only certain students, only certain people get to go to college. get to have an education, get to pursue certain careers. these rulings, they send a message that black women are -- because we're not qualified, because we. are it sends the message that were not wanton in these institutions. it sends a message that if we're gonna pursue these careers, we're gonna pay for it for a lifelong debt. i hope that biden is going to move, president biden is going to take action because he is taking action. but we know that we had to continue to encourage the

administration. whether we will have to continue to hold this administration accountable. and we can't let up on this one. it's gonna be a lot of incentives to light up but we have to make sure those of us who carry that, that we're not allowing anyone to backup -- put this on the backburner right now. >> you see a connection between the two decisions over the last two days? not in the ruling but in their impact on students of color, minorities, and women of color? you have the courts decision to block the biden administration with the student step forgiveness being rejected. and you have the affirmative action decision that came out yesterday. together do you worry that these two rulings will cement this country is already existing racial wealth gap? >> that's its intention. that is absolutely the intention of these rulings. i just mentioned black women are the largest carriers of student loan debt. we just proportionately carry the burden. we're also a group of folks

food for so many reasons throughout history have been kept aware of quality education. the focus is on affirmative action but the reality is affirmative action was never on solid footing. we knew that it was never a long for this world. our opportunities any advantage that we might have was always at the whim of the makeup of the court. but it was always a band-aid to a gun wound. we neve affirmative action and with that we need called a d pre-k through 12 education we need to make sure that every student irrespective of their zip code can get a quality education public education and the communities they call home we have to make sure the black students have access to appropriate books curriculum and educators. that they are in schools that don't have open asbestos and legs. this is issues that predate this. rolling these all go hand in hand as this nation and there's so many people who are gleeful about black sons just --

because what we do to black people will be reflected in the future of our economy. the future of our national security, and we are throwing away so much talent, so much brilliance, so much opportunity for innovation by shutting a continuing and continuing to shut blackstone's out. this is what they asked for, this is what we're willing to do to keep black folks from upward mobility, from any measure of economic stability. and we will see the impacts of this for this ruling. and this will be what happens. and now, through legislative action, through executive action we have to take steps to counteract the damage that the court has chosen to inflict upon us. >> it's gonna save us others have pointed, out the cruelty is the point in all of these measures. our congresswoman summerlea, always a pleasure. thank you so much for your time and your expertise. greatly appreciate it. >> thank you. >> still lots more ahead tonight how one of the big decisions handed down by the supreme court today may have involved a completely fictional gay couple. the reporter who broke that story joins me next.

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conservative justices on the supreme court ruled that a colorado graphic designer huda wants to create wedding websites has the right to deny her services for same-sex

couples. that designer, owning lori smith, has not started her wedding website business yet, but this her christian faith prevents her from doing work that celebrates same-sex marriage. smith wants to post a statement explaining that her policies actually based on her beliefs. so, she sued. she sued to get an exemption from colorado's antidiscrimination law that prohibits discrimination against lgbtq plus people buy businesses that serve the public. now, as this case was making its way through the judicial process, all the way to the supreme court, laurie smith's lawyers argued in a brief to the tenth circuit court of appeals that she had received a request from a prospective customer named stewart, inquiring about a celebrated celebrate his wedding tsv on say, a person named mike. this week, supreme court justices were sent to decide

whether lorries missed should be able to turn someone like that alleged perspective customer name stewart, turned him away. a reporter decided to get his contact information from the publicly bailable filing. and reach out to him, to hear what he has to say. find out what was going on. what he had to say was actually startling. still claimed he never sent that inquiry. at the time it was sent, he was married to a woman. quote, i'm married, i have a child. i'm not really sure where that came from. but somebody is using false information in a supreme court filing document. he also questioned why he, a web designer, living in san francisco, would seek to hire someone in another state who is never built a wedding website, let alone a website for a same-sex wedding to build his wedding website. despite the very real questions raised by this reporting, today, conservative justices went

ahead and rules in law isthmus favor and open the door to discrimination against the lgbtq+ community in this country. here's what justice sotomayor said in her dissent, a dissent allowing for her to read to emphasize her disagreement from the bench. she won part, quote, by issuing this let me license to discriminate in a case brought by a company that seeks to deny same-sex couples the full and equal enjoyment have been services, the immediate, symbolic effect of the decision is to mark gays and lesbians for second class status. in this way, the decision itself inflicts a kind of stigmatic harm on top of any harm caused by denials of service. joining me now is illicit jared grant, start staff writer at newark republic, author of that report. miss grant, thank you so much for being here. i have a lot of questions. this reporting was incredible. let me start with the basics. how sure are you that the

stuart you spoke to is in fact telling the truth? >> stuart, first of all, was very surprised to hear from me. you know, when i came across his phone number in the filing, i kind of thought, you know, we've seen us in other cases and other instances of anti-queer and anti--- discrimination. if they're just promenade against, they're trolled and span, that's what he's calling about. that's what i thought i was going to hear. instead, i talk to this very sweet, progressive guy who is shocked to even hear from me. i was shot. expected him to be like, five reporters, ten reporters of the years. my number has been floating around since 2016. nothing. he was aware the case, but only when it was argued at the supreme court because the web design community were discussing it in the context of their own work and what it might mean. so, given the fact that this is an inquiry made with his real name, real phone number, real

ill meal address and his company at the time, which was publicly available, i think the chances are more likely that someone uses identity. if he was going to do the fraudulent way, harassing way, why would he do so under his own identity? it just doesn't make sense. >> so, kristen wagner, the president of the conservative christian legal nonprofit alliance defending freedom and the lawyer who argued this before the supreme court responded to your reporting on a press call earlier. she called it untrue. i wanna play for here is just a part of what she had to say. listen. >> lori received a website request, design request, from a third party. even colorado agreed. it is not her responsibility, nor is she able to do background checks on those who she is receiving these background checks are from. colorado's told her she declines in any way, it requests like this, she puts herself in the crosshairs of this law. so, again, it's undisputed that

the request was received, it was received by a third party. whether that was a troll and not a genuine request or it was someone who was looking for that -- >> you looted to that in your first answer. what is your response to having heard that now? >> honestly, it's the first time a heard from atf. i sometimes questions before my story published. they didn't respond to them. i pressed them again today, the responses to send me a link to a thread that they had made on twitter. i think miss whiteness response is very misleading. we want to talk about what colorado decided, in a federal court in fought colorado, saying that this inquiry didn't philly get provided evidence of customers. one of the things for freedoms, one of the antiquarian anti-trans project, one thing misleading the public into thinking is whether or not there was a real inquiry. it's that her speech was restrain before the fact. someone wanted her services, they would not be able to do that because of the law.

that is simply not true. i don't believe she was violating the law simply by doing what i did, picking up the phone and checking it out. hi, this is stewart. are you part of the same-sex couple? maybe she was scared to be putting herself in legal peril. i don't know what she was advised by loves defending freedom. it is shocking to me what stewart told me. not only has he never heard from reporters, he hasn't heard from anyone trying to check this out. just a background check to pick up the phone, right? i think the real lot of questions about this case, feeling like it was built on essentially hypotheticals. somewhere, someday, a same cut sex couples might ask for the service. italy lines up for me to see this increase of part of that much bigger picture that loves defending freedom is essentially defending someone from something that has not happened yet, but she thinks might happen. >> it is quite remarkable, when you put it into context of everything else at the supreme court is under scrutiny from. that this particular detail in this case had been overlooked.

melissa jared grant, thanks much for reporting. thanks for joining us. i really created. >> thank you. >> still ahead tonight, the latest on the special counsel's investigation into trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election. we are learning more about those who are cooperating with the prosecutors. that story -- straight ahead. raight ahead do you struggle with occasional nerve aches in your hands or feet? try nervive nerve relief from the world's number one nerve care company. nervive contains ala to relieve nerve aches, and b-complex vitamins to fortify healthy nerves. try nervive. and, try nervive pain relieving roll-on. mmm, popcorn. (alternate voice) denture disaster, darling! we need poligrip before crispy popcorn. (regular voice) let's fix this. (alternate voice) poligrip power hold + seal

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philadelphia after making a speech to a national gathering of moms for liberty, the newest powerhouse and right wing politics, former president donald trump made an off the record stop at none other than pat steakhouse, a popular chili cheese steak house. he shook hands, and ordered the famous cheese whiz with onions and but everyone at the stop a cheesesteak as well. also joining the former president? this guy. you might recognize him by now, trump's valet and coconspirator in the mar-a-lago criminal probe, legibly. not sure if he got a cheesesteak to, i don't know the president paid for. it's not i for trump to keep a little -- keep distance between -- not to keep him too far away. after all, it was in part because of his text messages that prosecutors were able to gather so much information about how trump handled the classified information at mar-a-lago.

flipping nada would not be a big deal. by the way, it would be too bad if it -- cnn reported last night that a former trump campaign official named mike roman, think i who tried to physically deliver fake certificates to electors to former president mike pence ahead of january 6th, that guy -- you see him there -- is now collaborating with the special counsel's team and his other criminal probe, the one related to the 2020 election. according to cnn, rome entered what is known as a proffer agreement. illegal contract in which defendants basically agree to provide prosecutors with useful information if the statements made are not used against them in future criminal proceedings. that's not all. we actually learned this week that rudy giuliani, the person who spearheaded trump's bogus claims of election fraud in court has been interviewed by the special counsel team. giuliani, a, told cnn that the interview was voluntary. giuliani, if you remember, is a

target in willis's investigation in georgia, a probe looking into a separate effort to overturn the results from the 2020 election in that state. whether trump himself is also a target? we honestly don't know for sure. today, former president confirmed he thinks he is a target of willis's investigation. he also predicted somehow that the charges against him in georgia will be dropped. don't ask us how, why he made that statement. joining me now is tele-mccarty and weinstein, she is a former federal prosecutor, state prosecutor. she's also msnbc analysts. it's good to see you again. let me ask you about january six. we know rudy giuliani was interviewed by the special counsel. we know margaret min, who played a key role in the fake electoral plot as well is cooperating in this agreement. what does that signal to you at this moment in the investigation? >> well, it tells us that jacks mitt is really busy.

at the same time that he is going for speed ahead in the documents case, he is also working on the january 6th case and giuliani's appearance in the proper is interesting. we don't know what it means. we could make some educated guesses. remember, giuliani was u.s. attorney in the southern district of new york. he knows better than anybody what to do, how to help himself. one possibility is that he is working his way towards cooperation agreement. when you decide to make an agreement as the government, with somebody, where they plead guilty to whatever crimes they've committed in exchange for leniency, you have to have a series of properties along the way in which that person tells you everything they've ever done that was wrong and you decide if you believe them, if you want to work with them. that is one possibility for what is going on here. >> you bring up a really

interesting point about rudy giuliani wanting to tell us everything he is doing. let's put up this tweet. he re-tweeted the cnn article that basically talks about him going to meet with the special prosecutor. it's an article that basically confirmed that he was interviewed and voluntarily, nonetheless. what do you think he is trying to tell us with the fact that he re-tweeted that article? >> that was curious, right? he definitely has some kind of pr. >> afraid to tell donald trump i did this, hopefully, he will see it on twitter? >> to go inside of his mind is -- >> or never asked you to do that. >> it's tricky. he does seem to want to emphasize, one, that his appearance at the proper sessions was voluntary, which doesn't tell us very much because properties are by definition voluntary. it just means that you have volunteered to meet with prosecutors outside of the

grand jury, without a subpoena and tell you what you know, hope you get something out of it, just to the right thing. he also wanted to put out there that he's not being told that he is a subject of investigation, which is hard to believe. subject is really broadly defined. it just means your conduct is in the scope of what they're looking at. i think that is actually kind of a clever thing on his part because what he said is he was told he was a subject. if you don't ask, but you are told. it doesn't mean you are not the subject. that's actually a common thing that defendants do when they want to manage the optics of what they're doing. >> let me ask you about this reporting yesterday from the new york times that a grand jury in miami, basically, you know, has received a fresh batch of subpoenas in the mar-a-lago investigation. how do you read that? what does that tell us? >> it just tells me that they are continuing to investigate. in a federal system, it's

actually really easy to supersede an indictment. to add new charges or to add new defendants or to add both. i think of any serious case that i brought. i can't think of a time landed i didn't supersede the indictment. you learn new things, you keep going. there's an obligation to keep going. it's important that it is happening in miami. so, this doesn't mean that -- >> a jersey person. >> exactly. >> with that be different is something was happening in jersey? >> if they were looking at the conduct around that tape of donald trump waving the documents around, then they would probably have to venue that, locate that case in bedminster, in new jersey. so, this tells me that there are still working on potential crimes that happened around mar-a-lago. >> lot of developments. we'll see what happens. it is kind of push aside a little bit coming out of the supreme court, nonetheless, it's gonna be important. >> a lot of law news today. >> a lot of lawyers. we're thankful to heavy. thank you so much. >> thank you.

>> still ahead tonight, it was a republican stunt that cost tens of millions of dollars using, yep, shipping containers to erect a makeshift border wall in arizona. now, guess what? you at home can be a part of fixing that mess. i will explain. ll explain [blowing] [dice roll] ♪ playing games! [party chatter] dancin in the par—! ♪♪ when you have chronic kidney disease...

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along the u.s. mexico border wall. he started piling shipping containers along the southern border. it was a political stunt that caused nearly $100 million just to stack the containers on top of each other. presidents -- residence and environmental activists protested the burial blocking for their work on it because not only was the wall a nuisance, it actually disturbed endangered species in the region. federal officials sued arizona alleging the wall was illegally

built on federal land. about a week later in the waiting days of duck doocy's term as governor, arizona agreed to start dismantling the law. putting up and putting down of the wall could cost arizona taxpayers up to, wait for it, $200 million. now, the state is actually trying to get some of his money back. hopefully, at least, 2% of that to basically clean up the mess left behind republican predecessor, katie hobbs administration, is putting the containers up for sale to government entities and nonprofits. come october, anything that is left will be available to you, the public, for sale. so long as you don't mind a little where, baited paint or rust and don't actually care about what color shipping container you get, yes, you can buy yourself a piece of messy, expensive and, quite honestly, shameful arizona political history in arizona as well a