about as symbolic stairway that he climbed way too soon. >> and, it was so beautiful. and it was just perfect. matthew loved it. he would have loved it. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> that's all for this edition of dateline. i'm andrea canning, thank you for watching! for watching good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, july 4th. happy independence day. we're on tape this hour. we have plenty of great conversations and interviews that we hope you will enjoy. let's dive right in.hip recentl legislation following a pair of deadly mass shootings, proving

that action can overcome partisan division. serbia is taking swift action on gun violence -- >> not a progressive country, by the way. >> just two mass shootings in may that left seven dead and 21 injured, serbia took action. it has the third largest rate of gun ownership in the world, and it pushed through new laws with near unanimous support despite deep political divides. joining us now with more nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel. richard, how were they able to get this done? >> reporter: well, the secret is it wasn't even that difficult. there were these two mass shootings last month. they were extremely rare. people were outraged. they took to the streets. but they weren't just dismissed as tragedies, dismissed as part of a problem that is too difficult to confront. the people got together. the government got together.

lawmakers from a variety of political parties put their differences aside, and they radically changed the entire country's relationship with guns. serbians didn't see it coming. yes, they have a lot of guns in this country, the third most per capita after the united states and yemen, but they had never been used like this before. on may 3rd, a 13-year-old boy, for reasons still unclear, stormed into a school with two of his father's guns and a hit list and killed eight classmates. the next day a man in his 20s with a history of violence opened fire in a village, killing eight more. but then came more than thoughts and prayers. outrage became action. tens of thousands demanded not just tighter gun controls but a reorientation of society away

from violence, a reaction against armed rage. >> i think a lot of us have just had enough, and now it's a make-or-break moment. >> reporter: his 9-year-old daughter was in the school when the 13-year-old boy went on a killing spree. what would you say to americans who have been through this and then see no change? >> i would say to them safeguard your democracy if you still have it and mobilize. and act. >> reporter: within weeks of the shootings here new laws were introduced and old ones enforced. now all existing gun permits are under review. all sales of new guns of any type are banned for two years. gun owners must submit to in-person psychological and background checks. and owning an illegal gun is punishable by up to 15 years in prison. many serbians are deciding being armed isn't worth the risk or hassle and are turning in their

guns voluntarily. there's lots of aks and assault rifles. there are 70,000 guns in this police warehouse surrendered under a no questions asked amnesty. the deputy interior minister says this is only the start. he wants to take 90% of guns off the streets soon. what do you think when you see all of this? "i see lives saved. i see children's lives saved. i see better safety for society," he said. serbia is deeply divided politically over populism, abortion, and gender identity. but overhauling gun laws was universally popular. there's outrage every time there is one of these mass shootings in the united states, every time, but very little is done about it. why is it, do you think, you were able to cross political divides? >> i would say the precondition for that is that we are not having this big gun lobbies and

big industry behind it. >> reporter: there have been more than 300 mass shootings in the united states this year so far. just two in serbia were more than enough to convince people to change course. >> wow. that's incredible. nbc's richard engel, thank you so much. >> thank you, richard. >> what is wrong with us? >> such an important point from richard, and it's a good question we need to ask ourselves, because other countries do respond, and it's not just serbia. you look, jonathan, what happened in australia in 1936, the mass shooting that killed over 30. they changed gun laws. gun violence dropped precipitously after that. great britain, 1996, a mass shooting. they changed their gun laws. there's been one mass shooting since 1996. that was in 2010. a big change there.

you go to other countries and look at what happened in new zealand after the mass shooting at christchurch. the same thing happened there. we have one mass shooting after another mass shooting after another. the gun violence incredible. and, again, i just -- just to go back to this, imagine if half the people who were killed this weekend by guns, by americans, just imagine if an islamic terrorist attack killed a third of those people. we would be covering it wall to wall. congress, republicans, especially, would be screaming at the top of their lungs talking about how this scourge has to be stopped. and yet the number of gun deaths in america, again, i would

probably -- i'm saying probably -- we'll get the numbers tomorrow -- but i would guess have probable quadrupled the number of americans killed over a decade -- actually, over 20 years in iraq and afghanistan combined. and yet we still do nothing despite the fact 90% of americans want background checks, 80% of americans want laws passed. the majority of americans want military style weapons more tightly regulated. they want gun safety in their homes.

churches and synagogues. and republicans in congress and state legislatures across america, for the most part, won't do that. >> no, and it's a daily occurrence these mass shootings. of course there's a sad calculation if the body count is high enough, we all learn about them. other times two here, three there, four there, they add up and they change someone's life forever, devastating a family. they don't all break through because we're numb to the sheer volume. it is extraordinarily depressing how the national will has failed us all on this. and richard's report at the end, the serbian official who spoke about it, what's the difference between what happens in your country and in the united states? and he put his finger on it. he said it's the gun lobby, which for decades the nra

created this sort of culture around guns to the point where even though the nra is somewhat of a diminished organization now, it has become a part of the dna of so many republicans, of so many on the right. they feel like it is their interpretation of the second amendment, which we know is incorrect, gives them the ability to have any weapon they want like an ar-15, a weapon of war. and that is why we have been so slow to change. that's why we haven't changed outside of fits and starts over the years. >> you talk about their interpretation of the second amendment. their interpretation of the second amendment is not only incorrect but doesn't match up with actually what the united states supreme court says the second amendment means. and that's who defines what the second amendment means. and it is scalia, it is thomas, it is -- well, not thomas. it is scalia and the majority of the rest of the court who don't view the second amendment any more unlimited as the first.

there are always limitations for all rights and also all responsibilities that go along with those rights that the united states supreme court recognizes and that americans recognize, but the gun lobby and their most strict adherence do not. and americans are dying every day because we can't pass sensible gun laws that 90% of americans support. coming up next, we reflect on the one-year anniversary of the u.s. supreme court decision to overturn roe v. wade and the urgent need to take action and fight for women's reproductive rights and health care. that's next on "morning joe." we'll be right back. we'll be right back.

tomorrow marks the one-year anniversary of the u.s. supreme court's regressive decision to overturn the landmark 1973 roe vs. wade ruling that legalized

abortion in the u.s., a dangerous and retrograde move by the conservative court that paved the way for states to radically obstruct abortion access for millions upon millions of american women. what a difference a year makes. let's look at what has happened over the past year. republican-controlled legislatures approve nearly total abortion bans in 14 states. these states are now unsafe for women, especially women of childbearing age. and nearly a dozen additional states have enacted other restrictions on abortion with some cases still being litigated in the courts. there are women leaving these states for exactly this reason. also, access to mifepristone is now in jeopardy.

this is a drug that can save a woman's life, and in some places, it's now a crime to administer or receive that lifesaving health care. and approximately one in four women between the ages of 15 and 44 are now stuck, because they live in states where abortion is banned or mostly banned. all of this as opinion polls from the last year show that the majority of americans want abortion to be legal because it's health care. not to mention four of the five supreme court justices who voted to overturn roe were men. of course. women's lives are on the line now. i ask republicans if you would want to be denied care for a miscarriage or forced to continue with a nonviable pregnancy, a dead baby, growing in your belly? what if you were deborah dorbert of florida or she's one of your

loved ones, your sister, your wife. the young baby's mother was diagnosed with a fatal fetal abnormality. would you force her to carry the hopeless, high-risk pregnancy to term and then tell her to watch her baby struggle and die? because that happened because of the state that gnaw who is a six-week ban. on march 3 her son milo died in her arms shortly after he was born just as doctors predicted. she told media outlets he gasped for air a couple of times. i watched my child take his first breath, and i held him as he took his last. what if samantha casiano of texas was your daughter, your sister or your wife, or even

you, if you can imagine. 20 weeks into samantha's pregnancy she was told by doctors that only part of her body's brain and skull were forming and the fetus would not survive long after childbirth. would you be so cruel as to tell her that she would have to go on with her pregnancy, five months of pregnancy, knowing her baby would die? she ended up spending the remainder of her pregnancy raising money for the inevitable funeral. her baby halo lived for just four hours. you know, when women are in this situation, when they're forced to carry a fetal abnormalities to term, they often can't have children again. a termination in many cases preserves a woman's ability to bear a child again. so, let me get this straight. you support sterilization of women by denying them the health

care they need. how depraved are you? and i just want to ask republicans, what if you were christina zelke who was in ohio when she started to miscarry, because of that state's abortion ban, the er, wouldn't treat her miscarriage. imagine being told they needed proof there was no fetal development. imagine in real time as you are miscarrying, you're bleeding, you're in pain, you're scared, can you imagine being told to leave the e.r., the very place that you go to get help, to get health care. imagine bleeding out, bleeding profusely, and you're told to get out. and then later the blood is running down your legs, all down your legs to your shoes. what would you be saying to yourself about abortion if this

was happening to you, to your body? christina, by the way, was only given a procedure to help her when it was deemed by the hospital that her life was in danger and her family recounted watching her almost die. this and much more is happening right now in real time to women across the country. these are real stories, horror stories, that republicans have inflicted on women across the country because of their antiquated, unrealistic, highly judgmental and ill-informed view what have it means to have the right to an abortion. i have a message to women and to men out there who love them. we cannot wait for things to change. we can't wait for someone to do this for us. as these people, these republicans, take us back 50 years and beyond, call them out. call their offices. email them. find candidates to run, support

those candidates. you know what, run for office yourself and, for god's sake, vote them out. there are other options as well being considered by two democratic attorneys general all at the forefront of this issue. oregon's ellen rosenbloom. and michigan's dana nessel. joining us is host symone sanders townsend. thank you all for being with us. attorney general, i'll turn to you first. what are some of the things that you are able to do in the state at least to preserve abortion rights? >> well, one of the things that we did, honestly, in advance even of the dobbs decision was to fight against our 1931 zombie law that we knew would come back into effect in the event that roe was overturned which, of course, it was. so working together with governor whitmer, we were able

to ensure that that law was stayed and never went into effect, and then we brought a ballot proposal that passed in overwhelming numbers that codified row into the michigan tunings to ensure that we now have constitutionally protected reproductive rights, not just abortion, but birth control, the ability to manage a miscarriage and fertility treatments as part of our constitution in michigan. we are protecting rights not just for the folks who live here in michigan but for anyone who travels here as well. >> and attorney general rosenbloom, tell us about hb-2002 passed just this week in oregon. >> right, good morning. well this is a grim anniversary of the loss of access to abortion over a great swath of our country and that includes miscarriage care and other types of pregnancy complications.

so we knew, even though we had one of the best laws in the country, the reproductive health equity act that passed in oregon five years ago at least, that we needed to do something more, that we saw what was coming especially from the east. and when i say east, i mean the state of idaho, which is just across the border from oregon. and many of us in what we call blue states have states right next door where there are bans in place or there were trigger laws that immediately triggered a ban. idaho is one of the worst. so we've passed a new law which actually as of just this week, just wednesday, hasn't even been signed into law yet, which enhances our women's health equity act to ensure that providers, primarily providers are protected. look, they're my new heroes. the medical providers in the state of oregon are ensuring that not only oregonians, and

they've always taken great care of our people here, but anyone who comes to our state is going to have high level, the best quality abortion care, reproductive health care. and this law protects them from idaho trying to go after them for whatever they might do to those in our state. obviously we can't control what they do in idaho. but we're doing our very best. we also have now laws that will protect people who go into our clinics. believe it or not, there is still the possibility of obstruction at the clinic door. it seems like this is, you know, something from 50 years ago but, unfortunately, it's back. i'm really proud of the new law that will soon be taking effect here in oregon. >> symone sanders townsend, can you talk about the political challenges and opportunities? >> well, mika, i think on the politics of this, look, for 50 years the republican party apparatus has been organizing to

overturn roe v. wade, something you heard from state legislative offices all the way up to the campaign trail for president. and when roe was overturned there was celebration in the streets, if you will, from advocates. but elected officials were quite quiet. it was similar to the affordable care act. the republican party apparatus organized for years, repeal and replace the affordable care act. when they got into power, they had no plan of what their health care plan was going to be. i think there was not a plan for roe here. the stories you laid out at the top of this segment are real stories. women have died. lives are on the line because of this issue being sent back to the states and the bans that have been enacted. coming up on "morning joe," joe's exclusive interview with hollywood mogul tyler perry. what he's saying about once living through a period of homelessness to now leading a

billion-dollar media empire. we'll be right back. i think i'm late on my payment. it's okay, the general gives you a break. yeah, we let you pick your own due date. good to know, because this next scene might take a while. for a great low rate, go with the general.

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am i supposed to talk over stevie? but it's hard to talk over stevie. >> it's just disrespectful. >> it is. okay. there are few names in the media industry as well known as tyler perry. in fact, you look at the "forbes" list of top entertainers this year, there's one billionaire on that list. he is a guy who was homeless about 25 years ago and lived in a little car, which that's tough enough. but if you're like 6'6", even tougher. i recently caught up with the media mogul at his massive studio campus in atlanta, georgia. this place is just incredible. reverend al told me about it the told me about what an extraordinary community you've built here. but i saw on instagram, what was it, geo -- >> geo metro.

>> that you lived in. that you were homeless when you came to atlanta. how do you process that, to go from that to where we are now? >> very gradually. the time that it took to get from there to hear was all of 27 years, but the process of it was so important, and i talked to a lot of people up-and-coming trying to get things going, enjoy the process. it's kind of hard to say enjoy the process when you're sleeping in your car. having an understanding of if you have a goal and you're trying to reach that goal, there's a buy-in. i've always looked at it as a buy-in. >> it has to be crazy for you. now you open up the "forbes" top entertainers and tyler perry, the same guy that lived in a geo metro, the only billionaire on

the list. i would guess hollywood is paying attention now in a big way because you didn't play by the rules. >> it was out of necessity, understanding when i got to hollywood, it's a much different place than it is now. everything is talking diversity, diversity, diversity. i was the king of diversity even before that became a thing. when i started to get acknowledged was the tragedy of george floyd. after that the academy awards honored me at the emmys. it wasn't until people saw the horror of that to have people understand what the fight has been and start to acknowledge is really great. i was comfortable being hit. let them underestimate you. i remember my first film "diary of a mad black woman," which was

lions gate -- >> a wire hanger! >> this is so great. they paid for half and didn't believe it would work so they sold the other half to b.e.t., which is a full circle moment right now. to have -- to go in the room to make a deal saying i have to have ownership. okay, this isn't going to do anything. great. opens at $50 million. >> i do solemnly swear that i will faithfully execute the office of the president of the united states so help me god. ♪♪ >> so you shoot "the oval" here. how many episodes so far? >> i think we're approaching 120 or just past 120. so it's been a good run. it's been a really good run. but i have to show you the oval office and the east room. a lot of "black panther" was shot here. >> was it really? >> most of it.

the costumes, the wardrobes. again, all those stages are always booked. >> always. >> three years. >> three years ahead of time? >> you've been to the oval office for sure. >> i have, i have. this is perfect. >> pretty close. when i set out to help someone, it is my intention to do just that. i'm not trying to do anything other than meet somebody at their humanity. >> in the academy awards speech you talked about how we need to start talking to each other again and that would not just be politically but also people of different faiths. >> as i think about that, and i look at what's happening in the world, you couple the gun problem we have in this country. i'm a gun owner. >> i'm a gun owner, too. but like most gun owners, it's just too extreme, isn't it? >> it's too extreme. regulation is not a bad thing. i think part of why the gun violence has gotten so bad over

the last few years is because of what we're being fed through the internet along with just the access to ar-15s and anything in that vein. i'm worried for my 8-year-old, for these things that are not being regulated, not being talked about, not being fixed by the people we're putting in office. when i built my studio, i built is in a neighborhood that is one of the poorest black neighborhoods in atlanta so young black kids can see that a black man did that, and they can do it, too. ♪♪ this is a pretty famous house, one of my most famous characters. >> yes. >> i got to go to the liquor store to get wine. won't somebody praise her. >> i'm going to show you the historic district built in the 1800s, and that slaves actually built a lot of these buildings. >> my gosh. >> i understand the history.

i understand what i've been given stewardship over. i've done my best to try and honor it and make sure all of these historic buildings remain just as they were. >> so how many acres? >> 330 acres. and i just bought 39 more acres on the other side. the amount of money that they would spend on those sets putting them down, building them up, putting them down, building them up, i always thought built it permanently so you refurbish and redo it. that's why i built a white house. >> we talked about all the incredible things that have happened over the past 20, 30 years. for somebody who is down right now, somebody who has been beaten up, who has lost their job, doesn't think they can get out of bed and get moving and keep pursuing that dream. can you give them hope, a particularly hoe point for you you pulled yourself out of bed and said i'm going to put one foot in front of the other?

>> you gave the answer, one foot in front of the other. so many times i remember -- i went by this hotel a couple of years ago. i would go by every now then. it's one of those pay by the week hotels where drug addicts and everybody down on their luck, i was in one of those places and i remember wanting to die. i didn't want to get out of bed anymore. it was freezing cold. people would come out and start their old cars and there was a crack under the door about this wide. and i just prayed that the fumes would just fill the car, fill the room and i would die. >> you wanted to die? you were praying to god he would take you. >> it's too much. the pain was too much. what i had been through was too much. i'm homeless. i don't have food to eat. i'm done. and in that moment as i'm sitting there praying in tears, which never happened because everybody is warming their cars up, all the cars drive away almost simultaneously. little moments like that.

i guess i have to get up and go to work today. those moments gave me, you're okay. you're going to be okay. i would say to anybody just look for the little things that encourage you, even if you don't see anything, the little, small things that keep you going. so for every little thing that somebody did, i was able to make a step forward and to be here on this side, what i say to anybody if the pain is the buy-in, what are you paying for? had i stopped then, had i died then, had i given up, i would have missed the best part of my life. i would have missed being able to help thousands of people see their dreams come true. so my hope for anyone who knows, like you know it, you know it in your soul there's something. no path, nothing makes sense, but you know for sure something is out there, my hope is one step at a time. keep going.

let's turn now to broadway, and you may remember our next two guests from the smash hit "book of mormon." ♪ i believe that god has a plan for all of us ♪ ♪ i believe that plan involves me getting my own planet ♪ ♪ and i believe that the current president of the church speaks directly to god ♪ ♪ i am a mormon and, dang it, a mormon just believes ♪ >> that was grammy award winning actor andrew reynolds at the tony awards in 2011 performing the song entitled "i believe" from the hit broadway musical "the book of mormon." and now andrew and his "book of mormon" co-star josh gad will reunite on broadway for the first time in over a decade for "gutenberg" the musical. you're back.

the two of you are back. >> we're back. >> we're doing it. >> yeah, you're doing it. and i'm scared for your audience. can i explain? >> why? >> yes. i'm going to tell you why. because, let's see, 12 years ago my daughters were 11 and 15 and, josh, you know where i'm going with this. >> i remember this -- >> yes. i was watching "i believe" right there and everything else that happened on that stage. and so was my 11 -- i think they suffered posttraumatic stress still. >> no, they needed to learn those words. >> it did shape a generation for the worst. and they were going to learn them eventually. >> we probably should have put warnings outside the door, do not come to this show if you're under maybe 17. >> maybe, yeah. >> i'm sure they've turned into lovely young women now, so this is great. >> with filthy mouths.

>> exactly. wow, you just nailed it. and thank you both. so, andrew, you said -- >> yes? >> -- after years of relentless talking and countless restraining orders josh gad has finally gotten me to agree to share the stage with him again. is he a little aggressive? >> it's true. >> what is going on here? >> he said those things to you? >> he's pleasantly aggressive. we have been talking about this and thinking about what show would we like to do 20-to-come back to broadway. >> and then "phantom" closed and we ran out of some options and had to look again. >> "wicked" would not have us. we tried and tried. >> no "cats"? >> still too soon for "cats." >> and too late. >> but that was 2012 that josh and i left "the book of mormon" at the same time. it's taken all of this time. we finally found a show that seemed to really fit the bill

called "gutenberg." the director of the show came to us with this idea and josh and i -- >> immediately fell in love with it. >> we did. >> and we -- and we asked if we could do it as a movie, and they said no. so we're going to do it on stage. >> so josh has decided to come crawling back to broadway. >> well, you know what, i have to say that's great news for broadway. i'm also just going to point out here you haven't changed one bit. i'm sitting here -- >> thank you. >> -- a lot older, and you look really good. what's going on here? it's not fair. >> it's a new skin face filter we're both using that's artificial intelligence. >> they're filming us through a horse blanket right now. >> we actually both have gray hair and i'm actually much -- thank you for saying that. sometimes you look back at those

"book of mormon" photos and they're rough. some time has passed. >> you are perfect. okay. so you say "gutenberg" is a hysterical love letter to musical theater. tell us about it. my nieces, who are now the age my daughters were at, are they safe to see it? >> totally safe. >> you can totally bring your nieces, too, as long as they are also foul-mouthed children. no, this -- "the book of mormon" this is not. it is as funny but i think younger audiences can come to this one. >> yes, most definitely. it is very much a love letter to musical theater. josh and i will be playing two characters named buzz and doug. >> did you say bug and doug?

>> they want to write a hit musical and historical musicals are probably the most successful on broadway. >> which they are. >> they randomly figured the inventor of the printing press. >> we auditioned this out in front of a live audience. andrew and i got to play about 12 characters each. >> yeah, yeah. >> we sing many delightful songs. i have been looking for a show to come back to for over a decade. and i read this script -- we read this script in 2020, and i immediately called up andrew and i go, i think i just read the funniest thing i've read since "mormon," and i think you have to read this. he read it. and we did a workshop of it over the course of a week. and then this is it. let's do this. andrew did this and it was an inconsequential month. i think it was march of 2020. >> that's right.

>> we did the reading. for some reason. we're so excited. this is my first time back. >> i know! >> you've done back. >> i have been back many times to the broadway. this will be your -- this is the first time you're back and we're together. >> i love you so much. i know you've read things that say otherwise, but it's not true. >> the court ordered him not to touch me but since we're on television i'll let it go. >> only on "morning joe" because we're family here. josh, are you nervous about coming back to broadway, or how does it feel? is it exciting? if you're in new york city you feel that broadway is back. >> yes. >> well, i'm not in new york city and i feel that broadway is back. i'm building up the strength to come back which is why i wanted

to do this remotely today. if i get there, i'll get scared and back out. i'm so excited. my knees are not. my voice -- i started doing vocal training again. you have to problem for broadway like you prep for the olympics but without any of the athletic -- >> how do your kids feel about your vocal warm-ups at home? >> they really don't like it. >> yeah, they're loud. >> in the same way you don't. >> they're loud. >> it's a loud warm-up. ♪ cupid ♪ i've still got it. >> you've got it. >> yeah, you do. >> tickets on sale. >> oh, yeah. this is really going to sell it. "gutenberg the musical." as i'm closing the segment, do you want to do some of those vocal warm-ups to give us a sense of your range? >> sure, sure. >> three, two, one -- >> of all the songs, which one do you like? ♪♪ ♪ andrew rannells and i are going to sing together every night ♪

♪ for the next four months ♪ >> "gutenberg the musical" will be coming this fall with its opening set for october 12. thank you both very much. coming up next, one of the breakout books of the summer "the wager" is already being adapted into a movie by leonardo dicaprio and martin scorcese. the author joins us next on "morning joe." we'll be right back. l be right .

"the wager" tells the incredible true story of an 18th century british ship that crashed off the coast of patagonia and the incredible story of survival that followed even after the crew made it back home. its author joins us now. we'll all be reading books if there's nothing to watch on television anymore. tell us a little bit about "the

wager." >> this british naval ship set off in 1740 on a secret mission with a squadron to try to capture a spanish galleon filled with treasure, but it wrecked on a desolate island off the coast of patagonia where the crew and officers slowly descending into a real life lord of the flies. there were mutinies and murder and even cannibalism. but the thing that is most striking is that some of the castaways made it back to england where they were summoned to face a court-martial for their crimes. they release an account of what happened which unleashed this war over the truth. there were competing narratives and allegations of fake news. >> that's timely. you see pictures of the island they crashed on. tell us about the research that went into this. how did you discover this narrative and these conflicting tales? >> i first came across an 18th century account by a midshipman who was 16 years old. he would later become the grandfather of the poet lord byron, whose poetry was influenced by what he called my grand dad's narrative. what is amazing is are the surprising trove of first-hand documents you can find in archives that somehow survived tidal waves, typhoons, scurvy

outbreaks, naval battles. you can read them, but i also did something foolish which is i made my own journey to wager island to understand what the castaways had gone through. >> tell me, david, this does sound so much like lord of the flies. i'm wondering if golding was inspired by this story. even the island itself is what i imagined in my mind when i was reading "lord of the flies" how it looks and going up. and it actually, you look at it, and there are a couple of moments, dramatic scenes near the end where it looks like it could have happened on that island. >> very much so. i don't know about "lord of the flies" but this story influenced so many people. it influenced ruso and voltaire. it influenced charles darwin who carried a copy of one of these narratives on the beagle with him.

and there's a couple of moments, dramatic scenes near the end where it looks like it could have happened on that island. this story influenced so many people. it influenced charles darwin who carried a copy with him. it influenced two of the great novels of the sea. herman melville and patrick o'brien. >> the british empire like to think of itself certainly at the time as this kind of bastion of civilization. how did it then tell the story of the fact that once some of its stalwarts and sailors landed on this island, within a nanosecond, it turns into anarchy. >> it really undercut the central claim of the british empire that its civilization was

somehow superior to others. of course, when they get to the island, the officers and crew behave less like gentleman and more like brutes. when they come back to england and are hearing these warring stories, the british empire is listening and saying do we like any of these stories? so they begin to try to cover up the scandalous truth and manufacture their own alternative version of history, their own mythic tale of the sea, which is why this story felt so much like a parable for our turbulent times today. >> wow. and david, finally, i have to ask you. obviously, we have heard dicaprio is getting in here. obviously, martin scorsese as well. martin scorsese has a movie coming out which based on your number one "new york times" best-seller, killers of the flower moon. and i have heard nothing but

raves about scorsese's adaption of your book. they showed such a fierce commitment to getting the story right, to doing justice. it shows the deep complicity that helped support this murderous system against members of the osage nation, who were being killed for their oil rights. i think people are going to be blown away by the film when they see it. >> i have heard it's extraordinary. well, your new book "the wager" a tale of shipwreck, mutiny, and murder, out now. i can't wait to read it, david. thank you so much for being with us. greatly appreciate it. and that does it for us this morning. have a safe and happy fourth of july. msnbc's coverage continues after a quick break.

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