>> domestic politics on the line this week, talking about health care. it'll be foreign policy next week. i'll be traveling with the president as he has stops in london, the nato summit, and on to helsinki. we'll have complete coverage next week from overseas. senior political reporter for "axios," eugene scott, thank you so much for joining us this morning. thanks to you for getting up "way too early" on this friday morning. have a great weekend, everyone. "morning joe" starts right now. >> he's the only person outside of the state of delaware to lose to donald trump, and he wanted to continue to pretend he was president. he wanted to show these things to people and say, "look what i still have. look what i still know." >> presidential candidate chris christie with his thoughs on why donald trump may have kept the classified documents at his florida golf resort. it comes as the co-defendant in the case makes his first appearance in court. in the race for the 2024

republican nomination, donald trump is bringing in a good deal of cash, but there are questions about where all that money is going. we'll look into it. also ahead, more on the story we've been following all week. the cocaine found at the white house, we're learning where exactly it was discovered and who had access to that area. plus, treasury secretary janet yellen kicks off high-level meetings in china with criticism of how beijing treats american companies. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, july 7th. joe and mika off this morning. with us, the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire. jen palmieri. and associate editor of "the washington post," eugene robinson. we're going to dive in with president defendant's co-defendant and personal aide, walt nauta. he has been arraigned on charges in the classified documents case.

he pleaded not guilty in court in florida yesterday. this was the third attempt to arraign nauta, who was finally able to hire a florida-based attorney, allowing the proceeding to take place. the hearing lasted five minutes with nauta's attorney entering a not guilty plea on his client's behalf. nauta is accused of helping trump hide top secret files from investigators after trump left the white house. the charges against him include conspiracy to obstruct justice, withholding a document or record, and making false state m statements. nauta faces up to 20 years in prison if convicted of the most serious charge against him. let's bring in msnbc, former attorney barbara mcquaid. good to see you this morning. at least they finally got walt nauta arraigned on the third attempt. he found an attorney who can represent him inside the state of florida. what is his place in all of this? an alleged co-conspirator with donald trump, how significant a

figure is he in the documents case? >> willie, i think it is certainly fair to say that he is a lesser player than donald trump, who abused his position as president, allegedly, to take the boxes and willfully retain them, but walt nauta is an instrumental figure. we learned earlier in the less redacted version of the affidavit some more detail about his role. one of the things that was striking to me is we know from the indictment that he was interviewed in may and said, "i don't know anything about any boxes. sorry. wish i could help you. then it was the day before he was interviewed that he was seen moving the boxes in and out of the storage room. his lies are clear there. in addition, he moved those boxes, according to the video, out of that storage room, moved some back into the storage room but not all of them, and then he is seen escorting trump's lawyer into the room to do the review

of documents. clearly knowing that it didn't contain all of the documents. so i think his role here is significant, and his exposure is also potentially many years in prison. >> barbara, walt nauta is incredibly loyal to donald trump. as a matter of fact, we still see him out staffing donald trump as a personal aide. the judge has instructed the two not to discuss the case. we'll leave it to our viewers to decide if they think donald trump can exercise that level of restraint. do you believe there's any possibility of walt nauta finding a deal here, or is he going to fight this on the instructions of donald trump? >> yeah, you never know. i've had defendants that you are absolutely certain had said, "i will never, ever take a deal," you know, come with their hat in their hand asking for a deal as the trial date approaches. it's always a possibility. but i think his best option for a deal has come and gone. if he wanted to cooperate, he had the opportunity to provide

value before the government amassed all of this other evidence from other sources, you know, a year ago, six months ago. i think his ability to cooperate now has been greatly diminished. i'm sure if he came forward and said, "i'd like a plea deal," the government would listen because he might have more information he can shed light on. it's always a possibility. i think as every day goes by, the value diminishes. >> this was the third attempt to arraign mr. nauta because he hadn't retained legal counsel that could work there in florida, unless yesterday. that led some to suspect, well, that's a delay tactic. that is the first of many, perhaps, the trump side is going to utilize. i want to get your take on that. going forward here, we know this is a complicated case. we know classified materials are involved. that inherently is going to slow things down. how do you see this playing out? do you think this case will start in that december trial date that it currently has? >> i don't know about the december trial date.

it might be a little ambitious. i think we'll learn a little more next week when the parties go in to visit with the court for a sepa conference, the classified information procedures act. they have to decide how they'll handle these classiied documents. based on that, we'll get a better sense of what a realistic date looks like. we could have a trial early 2024, but i imagine donald trump's strategy will be to delay it past the election. >> prosecutors are getting threats around this case, as well, barb. "the washington post" reports some of the prosecutors involved in this classified documents case against former president trump are facing harassment, threats online and elsewhere. that's according to extremism experts and a government official familiar to the matter talking to "the post." the fbi says it is working with partner agencies to assess and respond to the threats as the classified documents case moves forward.

doj officials have also responded by trying to keep the names of prosecutors and agents working on the trump cases from becoming public in official documents, congressional hearings and less formal conversations about the case. two officials tell "the post," federal agencies have not observed a general increase in threats against law enforcement overall in the weeks since trump was indicted. that is a major contrast from a surge of reported violent rhetoric against fbi agents in the days following the search of mar-a-lago last august. barb, as a former prosecutor yourself, how common is this stuff? how seriously do you take it? obviously, this all comes from the top, donald trump calling into question everything about this case, saying it's a witch hunt, painting himself as a martyr. how did you as a prosecutor handle this, and how does doj handle it now? >> this is not normal. from time to time, prosecutors do get death threats, maybe based on someone they're prosecuting, but i think we've reached a whole different era when we're sort of crowdsourcing

these threats. any time former president donald trump says these things about witch hunts and hoaxes, calling for the defunding of doj, there is the risk that someone out there is going to hear that and take matters into their own hands and go after these line career prosecutors. i've had threats. others have had threats. the way it is usually handled is the u.s. marshal service can provide protection, sometimes including 24/7 protection, but it is very resource intensive. the prosecutors have been better things to do than to be checking in with their security detail and, you know, they have lives. they have children. they have errands to do in their personal lives. so this is a whole new day, if prosecutors have to think twice about whether they can do their job safely. >> of course, we saw these kind of threats to secretaries of state, attorneys general in the states where the election was in dispute and donald trump was pushing his law about them, his

lies. former u.s. attorney, barbara mcquaid, always great to have your insights. despite the recent indictments, or because of them, former president donald trump has nearly doubled his campaign fundraising. trump brought in more than $35 million in the second quarter. that's compared to the first three months of this year when he raised nearly $19 million. not clear exactly how much of this money actually is going to the campaign and how much is going to his pac save america, which has been helping to fund trump's legal bills. according to recent fundraising solicitations, at least 10% of donations have been going to the pac. eugene robinson, this is in line with what we've seen in the polls, that donald trump has surged because of the indictments against him, because of this picture he has painted of himself as a martyr, and that he needs your money, he says to his supporters, to fight them, to pay the legal bills, despite the fact he claims to be a billionaire. he has people like senator

lindsey graham weeping on television, asking trump supporters to send money to pay the legal bills of a billionaire. this is how he does business. the larger point is, he is surging in the polls and raising more money because of the indictments against him. >> yeah, i mean, when you look at the money and where it is going, you do have to remember, always watch for the grift when it comes to trump. i would just assume right up front that a lot of the money that people are giving, thinking that it is going to the campaign, will really go to legal defense or somehow go to trump. but that aside, sure, his base has rallied behind him, and these indictments, in terms of fundraising, have been a boom to the former president. you know, this is the counterintuitive, crazy way that trump and maga work.

this is really going to be something for somebody like ron desantis to try to overcome. you're going to need a lot of money if you're going to knock off donald trump in the primaries. desantis does have a decent amount of money. he's got a lot left over from his gubernatorial campaign the last time. but he is not raising at quite the clip that trump is, and it is another indicator of how trump really is ahead for the republican presidential nomination. >> here are those numbers following donald trump's disclosure of fundraising. the desantis campaign announced the florida governor raised $20 million in the first six weeks of the campaign. his super pac, never back down, also raised $130 million. but more than $80 million of that is left over money from his gubernatorial re-election campaign. meanwhile, in an interview on fox news, desantis was asked about his poll numbers which have fallen since his campaign

launch in some surveys. here's what he said. >> if you look at the people like the corporate media, who are they going after? who do they not want to be the nominee? they're going after me. who is the president of mexico attacking because he knows we'll be strong on the border and hold him accountable and the cartels? he is going after me. so i think if you look at all these people that are responsible for a lot of the ills on our society, they're targeting me as the person they don't want to see as the candidate. we've got a huge amount of support to be able to take the case to the people. we really haven't started that yet. we're in the process of building out a great organization, and i think we're going to be on the ground in all these early states. it is three yards and a cloud of dust type situation. >> jen palmieri, as you reminded us yesterday, it is still early going in this campaign. governor desantis is right about that. but he has had some time here to introduce himself, and at least within the republican primary, many voters have said, eh. in fact, donald trump's support

has increased over the last few weeks. >> he is doing a great job being the runner-up, right? it is as if his campaign is designed not to beat trump but to be the heir to trump. that's not -- i guess his assumption being that, at ome point, the indict ments become too much. republican voters become concerned that trump can't get elected, and he is there to inherit the trump base. that's not how you win a presidential primary. it's weirdly running to the right of trump. i mean, we saw the bizarre homophobic video that he did a week ago. attacking trump, saying trump has vulnerabilities. you could as a republican candidate, desantis could be

running a strong capaign against trump based on him not being electable. instead, he is attacking him from the right saying he's not doing enough to restrict lgbt rights. that's not what the maga base is going to go for. he raised $20 million. that is a big number, so we should not discount that. can he keep that up? i mean, trump seems to have the ability to keep that money going, playing the victim. i'm just not sure that desantis is going to be able to hit a big number like that in the next quarter. >> jen, you've talked to voters, i've talked to voters, a lot of them like trump, like desantis, and some say, "i want trump to run now, but maybe desantis is the '28 guy." on truth social, trump is saying, desantis is damaging his chances for '28. >> oh, this is hurting him in '28. i don't know, desantis is doing himself some harm here. >> the guy has undeniable

trolling skills. we can agree on that. desantis is raising money, but the polls are going the wrong direction. we'll again note that there's time to turn that around. it is clear that there is a lane there, an opening for someone else to try to become the trump alternative. >> yeah. >> are you seeing any movement, is there momentum within the party, even if it is not registering with voters, who the next person up might be? >> no. i mean, there is christie. chris christie has a wee bit of momentum behind him. he is taking trump on. he is taking trump on where he is vulnerable, in terms of him being able to win an election. that is having a small impact because there are republican voters very open to that argument. i've heard people say, you know, tim scott is interesting to me. i've heard people say in iowa, nikki haley is interesting to me. but is there anyone that -- there's no one who is putting

all the pieces together. there's no one making the electability argument the way that chris christie is doing with an argument on -- with a policy argument behind it and saying, "i'm fighting for you." you know, chris christie came closest to that when he said last week, i heard him say, you know, he's not for -- he's for himself. he is no longer for you. chris christie is the imperfect messenger for that, and i don't know that -- it's still early, a lot can happen and all that, and it may be that the next round of indictments is the straw that breaks the camel's back, and people say, "wow, it's too much, he can't beat biden," but every indication we have thus far is there's no candidate that is putting it all together in a way that could be a serious rival to trump, and these indictments are not hurting him. they're sort of coalescing more support behind him. >> they're deepening his support with core followers, and there

is no sign it's going to change with what indictment comes next. we have an update on a story from yesterday. former vice president mike pence was pressed by a voter in iowa about his decision to certify the 2020 election results back on january 6th, 2021. here again is that exchange. >> if it wasn't for your vote, we would not have joe biden in the white house. that was a constitutional right that you had to send those votes back to the states. >> the states conduct our elections. you never want to let washington, d.c., run elections. constitution affords no authority to the vice president or anyone else to reject votes or return votes to the states. never been done before, should never be done in the future. i'm sorry, ma'am, but that is actually what the constitution says. president trump is wrong about my authority that day, and he is still wrong. >> a little difficult to hear that exchange, but as we discussed yesterday, vice president pence there rebutting

the argument that he had the power on january 6th to overturn the results of the election and, as the woman put it there, the voter, send it back to the states. on "morning joe" yesterday, our panel questioned whether pence's answer would do anything to change the mind of a voter like the one he was speaking to there. well, now we have our answer. >> it becomes difficult to figure out, how do you convince them otherwise. >> right. >> the facts are what they are. pence was very forthright, but did he actually convince her? >> right. >> that's the challenge, of course. >> what do you think after hearing mr. pence's answer? >> i believe he's a good man. i love the fact that he is -- he is strengthened by his faith. but i really do feel like he altered history. >> would you consider supporting mr. pence after listening to him today? >> i would consider it, but he has that one hiccup.

>> he has that one strike against him, eugene robinson. that seems to be the sense of the voter there, the woman in sioux city, iowa, who listened to vice president pence explain why he didn't have the power to do what she wanted him to do. it shows why supporters of donald trump, people who watch certain networks, listen to certain podcasts and read certain websites have been told that he let them down that day. donald trump has said it was, in fact, mike pence's fault that joe biden is president. >> yeah. the interesting thing is that it is almost not just a matter of fact for that voter, it's a matter of faith. it's like trying to change someone's faith. trying to convince her of something that she simply does not believe at her core.

that is an enormous challenge. you can call the trump following cult-like. i've called it cult-like, but it is unquestioning and unwilling in the case of many voters, unwilling to listen to any evidence to the contrary, evidence contrary to the thesis that donald trump is a savior of america. how do you combat that? none of the republican hopefuls seem to have an answer. >> jonathan lemire, we've seen this before in covering donald trump and his supporters. we've seen it in our own lives, where you have to patiently say to someone, no, the voting machines were not controlled by a satellite in italy or by thermometers the chinese government officials had tapped into, but that seems to be beside the point, doesn't it? they take it as an article of faith that the election was stolen from them, and anybody who participated in keeping donald trump from being

re-elected is against them, including mike pence, who was a heartbeat away from being president and stood by donald trump's side for all four of those years, right up to the end. >> this moment encapsulates where the republican party is right now in 2023. that donald trump's grip on the party, he's brainwashed so many of the republican voters, that they choose to believe their own set of facts, that vice president pence can look that woman in the eye and explain very reasonably, very patiently, very kindly, but very forthrightly, that "i didn't have the power to do that. the constitution does not let me do it," and she simply wouldn't believe him and will hold it against him and likely withhold her vote for him because of it. jen palmieri, it is every so often, we're in this every day, so it is easy to lose sight sometimes of the big picture. you know, i don't want to get into the habit of quoting myself, but i'll say, i wrote the book titled "the big lie,"

but the final sentences of the book are the idea that the big lie is dogma now for the republican party. it is who they are. they either firmly believe it or pay lip service to it, and it shapes everything they do. it is clearly going to shape this year's election, too. >> it's a big lie that started with a lie back in 2015. that, you know, may be a good bookend to the line from your book. i remember the escalator, when trump came down that day in june of 2015 announcing for president, and he talked about immigrants coming in, about mexican immigrants. he's like, "they're rapists, murderers, and some, i suspect, are good people." i heard that and thought, wow, what a craven, political thing to say, to do that kind of, you know, gross race baiting. i spoke with a republican strategist later at the end of the election from another

campaign, not trump, and said that they realized in retrospect that they lost the primary on that day. because what they heard from a lot of voters was, wow, donald trump was willing to tell the hard truth about something. he was willing to say that some of these immigrants that are coming over are rapists and murderers. no one else has the courage to do that. if he has the courage to say that, which is on my mind, too, i'll hang in with him for anything. that started a relationship with his base where they think -- and i hear this parroted back to me all the time -- he says what i think. they're going to find a way to make whatever fact out there in the real universe that doesn't purport with what they believe, they're going to find a way to believe what they want to believe based on what trump tells them, because that connection they feel to him is so strong. >> that moment is what these other republicans running against donald trump are up

against, that kind of loyalty, that kind of faith in him. still ahead this morning on "morning joe," tensions continue to rise between russia and the united states in the skies over syria. we'll explain what's happening now. and russian president vladimir putin wants a seat at the table when it comes to inter net oversight on a global level. "the washington post"'s david ignatius joins us with his reporting on that when we come back on "morning joe."

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the united states military says russian jets targeted u.s. military aircraft flying over syria two days in a row this week. yesterday, russian planes flew

close to american drones near northwest syria and dropped flares in front of them around 9:30 a.m. local time. on wednesday, military officials say three american reaper drones were conducting a mission against islamic state targets in syria when three russian fighter jets began to harass them. the latest provocations come after russian jets flew over an american base in syria nearly every day in march. joining us now, columnist and associate editor for "the washington post," david ignatius. david, good morning. a lot to discuss with you. let's start right there, though. what is russia up to exactly here? admiral stavridis was on with us yesterday, and the previous provocation, chasing drones over syria, he said that this doesn't end well if they want to engage with the united states military. the u.s. trying to avoid a confrontation in the sky, but what is putin doing, chasing american aircraft effectively

with hiswillie, i see this as a jousting. the two countries are not in direct military conflict, but there is pushback going on, especially on the russian side. in syria, as in many parts of the world, the u.s. and russia had evolved a system of deconfliction. u.s. commanders would get on the phone, in effect, to their russian liaison officers and say, "we've got drones going in the air over such and such a place in syria," make them aware if there were incidents, ask the russians to pullback. generally, those measures worked pretty well. since the ukraine war began, that's begun to fray. there's more tension. we've seen it the last two days to an unusual extent. the disaster is if an american drone is shot down, is forced to land, if there is a collision with a russian jet.

we saw that kind of behavior over the black sea several months ago. that was genuinely dangerous. but this is what countries do in times of tension. they punch and counterpunch to show that they're there, and they get closer and closer to the edge of a real confrontation that would put them in an entirely different, really dangerous space. >> david, speaking of russia, of course, its invasion of ukraine will be front and center next week when president biden heads overseas, a week-long stay in europe with the nato summit. we have heard from the ukrainians that they are pushing their own bid to join nato. finland is in. sweden not yet, but we believe soon once turkey acquiesces. now, ukraine is making a push, and the eastern european members of nato are backing it. what is your read in terms of diplomats on both sides of the atlantic, as to where that can go, whether it is for this summit or perhaps next nato

summit next summer in washington? >> so i think, john, it's for the future. the basic rule for nato, understandably enough, is if you've got a current border conflict going on with russia, you're not a candidate for membership. you don't -- nato doesn't want to buy into a new member and then immediately go to war. that's not the deal. in one sense, that's incentive for ukraine, if it wants to be a nato member, to come to a satisfactory negotiated settlement from the conflict. there is pressure from the baltic states, poland, to move more quickly. i think the administration has thought carefully about this and decided, no, not yet, and is pushing back. the question that i think officials are really haunted by is, how do we give ukraine guarantees and protection for its security going into next

year if it is not in nato? what is the alternative way that we may ukraine strong enough that there will be real pushback for russia? people are still struggling on that. i haven't heard a good answer yet. >> your latest piece in "the washington post" also deals with russia. it's titled, "russia hasn't stopped maneuvering for a role in internet oversight." what exactly does vladimir putin want to do? what does he want his role to be? >> well, strange as this sounds, willie, the country that has been meddling in u.s. and european elections is -- wants to take a leading role in writing rules of the road for safe behavior in cyberspace on the internet. they do this every few months. i'm writing about a new instance that just came to light in my reporting where they presented a proposal to the international telecommunications union, one of these obscure bureaucrat

bureaucratic bodies they have. they have a proposal, the internet is fragments and we need the u.n. to step in and do more regulation. it is part of a russian claim that the united states and the west really own the internet, and it's not fair and we should have international control. the idea that the united nations would police the internet, to me, is a nightmare. look at how the u.n. operates. the bureaucracy, the slow moving pace of decision. the idea that they control the most dynamic sector of the global economy seems like a very bad idea, but that's what the russians are proposing. >> so, david, is there a chance that they get that role? i mean, would the u.n., would the world community allow that to happen? >> so, oddly to me, secretary general guterras has embraced a part of the russian idea, arguing that we do need some

sort of collective rules. the state department is pushing back. i'm told we're working hard with our partners to modify any attempt to make rules that would really slow and politicize, control the internet. the strange thing is that the russian claim is that the internet is now fragmented. there are blockages of the internet. if there is a blockage, it's the controls that russia and china impose that prevent their citizens from using the internet. it is not a conspiracy from the west, far from it. this is the sort of thing that gets battled out often in obscure forms. i tried to write about it this morning because i think it is important to expose it so people know what is going on, see the russians doing this, they hope quietly and privately where they have leverage, and get enough pressure to stop them. >> we'll keep an eye on that story. you mentioned china, david. treasury secretary janet yellen is criticizing the chinese government's treatment

of american companies and stressing the importance of communication between the u.s. and china. this as the secretary meets with senior chinese officials for informal talks on the u.s. and chinese companies. speaking with a group of business leaders in beijing, secretary yellen defended u.s. controls on technology export, saying they are necessary for national security. yellen's concerns reflect tension between the two countries. after arriving in beijing yesterday, secretary yellen tweeted, the two nations are seeking, quote, a healthy economic competition that benefits american workers and firms and to collaborate on global challenges. fascinating to watch the exchange. last week, secretary antony blinken echoing a comment by president biden, that president xi is a dictator. he was on our show, secretary blinken last week, and we asked if he shared that view. he said the president of the united states speaks for the administration, for all of us. yes, there has been this

outreach. yes, there have been visits from secretary blinken, from secretary yellen, but also some strong words to go with them. >> yeah, there have been. i imagine in beijing, they're asking themselves, well, if the u.s. is playing good cop/bad cop with us, where is the good cop? janet yellen goes to beijing, and there is really pretty harshly critical of china and the way it treats u.s. companies. it is fascinating. my question for david ignatius is, are these steps, this yellen visit, the blinken meetings, is this actually improving our relationship with china? is this opening a channel for communication that might lead to a meeting between president biden and president xi? is it real, or is it going

nowhere? >> well, gene, the famous response from a question about the future, too soon to tell. in this case, i think we can expect that there'll be this process of gradual warming. she wants to come to the united states in november for this meeting of the apex summit. i think xi won't allow major disruptions. the yellen visit is an interesting test of what jake sullivan and his visit in vienna, what they were trying to put together. they wanted to add cooperation on issues of muture interest in a very contentious relationship. yellen is trying to figure out, is there kind of a running rate between the u.s. and china on economic issues that benefits both sides? yellen has said more clearly than anybody in the administration, decoupling of the two economies is a bad idea. it's a bad idea for both. it's bad for the global economy.

she's got to figure out, given that, what are the rules? i think that's part of the sparring that you were referring to earlier. in her meetings today, she was talking about how difficult conditions are for u.s. businesses. the chinese really want continued trade and commerce between the countries, and they need it, given their economic problems. they've got to figure out better rules of the road that leave u.s. companies feeling that they're not going to be harassed. they're going to be protected. generally, the answer to your question is, yes, i do think we're on the path now to somewhat greater cooperation, some reduction in tensions between the u.s. and china. >> columnist and associate editor for "the washington post," david ignatius, walking us through the world this morning, thanks so much. we always appreciate it. coming up here, the far right freedom caucus takes action against georgia congresswoman marjorie taylor greene for her heated exchange on the house floor with another member. we'll let you know what is going on here. a little later, we're taking

a look at a new nbc documentary focused on the atomic bomb and the scientist who built it. that story and much more when we come back on "morning joe." fundamental freedoms are under attack in our country today and there is a national agenda at play by these extremist so-called leaders. it will be a national ban on abortion. it is the tradition of our country to fight for freedom, to fight for rights... to fight for the ability of all people

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since i took office, we've seen over 60 domestic manufacturing announcements all across the solar supply chain. one of the biggest is in dalton, georgia. you may find it hard to believe, but that's marjorie taylor greene's district. [ laughter ] i'll be there for the groundbreaking. >> president biden in south carolina yesterday touting some of his economic achievements while name checking republicans who voted against his infrastructure bill but whose districts will benefit from it. speaking of georgia congresswoman marjorie taylor greene, she may have been kicked out of the far-right house freedom caucus. the caucus voted two weeks ago

on greene's membership, and a source familiar with those deliberations says the vote to oust her was overwhelming. discontent with greene among the members has been growing since she backed kevin mccarthy's bid for house speaker. it was reportedly this altercation with colorado congresswoman lauren boebert last month that put members over the edge. the vote to kick her out was two days later. despite this, greene still has not officially been removed from the freedom caucus. that's because caucus chairman scott perry could not schedule a meeting with her despite numerous attempts before and after the vote to oust her. nbc news reports in an interview thursday night a house freedom caucus board member said perry had made a number of attempts to reach greene and her staff before and after the vote to oust her. quote, i suspect because she knew she was being dismissed from the freedom caucus, and a little bit like refusing service from a legal standpoint, if i'm not served, it doesn't take

effect. greene's team called out the member for remaining anonymous. she said, i serve northwest georgia first, and serve no group in washington. a lot to pick through there, jen palmieri. you talked not so long ago on the surface with marjorie taylor greene, the congresswoman there. obviously, she is her own brand. she is her own thing. she's right about that, saying she doesn't belong to a group. what is the significance of this? >> we should clock this moment that marjorie taylor greene has been kicked out of the house freedom caucus. you know, they did say in the story, they said part of the problem was the altercation she had with lauren boebert, which, by the way, was a fact over who gets to file impeachment articles against joe biden, who gets to do that first. >> right. >> note that. also, it wasn't just that. they said, you know, andy biggs from that house freedom caucus said that it was, you know, her

role in the debt limit fight. the house freedom caucus thought the deal was too moderate. also, her backing of speaker mccarthy early on in january when there was 15 ballots to try to find a speaker. he lumped all of that together which sort of computes -- comes out as she is too establishment for us. okay, so that's a moment to consider. then having spent -- i spent a week in her district. i've spent time with her on a few occasions, and she -- the house freedom caucus is not marginalizing marjorie taylor breen. just as when she lost her committee assignments under democratic congress, she will find a way to use this moment to her advantage. you know, as i said earlier, talking about the sort of connection, human connection that trump has with his base, marjorie taylor greene has that

with the maga base. there's no one in the house freedom caucus that raises more money for republican candidates that marjorie taylor greene. i'm certain of that. she has -- because she bled for the cause, she was kicked out of her committee assignments by democrats. that helped her form a connection with the maga base that the house freedom caucus is not going to be able to touch. then she has done a pretty good job at playing this inside game with mccarthy. you know, it's another statement of where we are with the house republican caucus, that she's playing a role as a leader within, figuring out a way to do that within mccarthy's world, the establishment. >> also, the whole play of, you can't fire me if i won't take a meeting with you, that feels very like george costanza, "seinfeld." pretty sure he did that. you know, willie, it is, though, beyond marjorie taylor greene,

who, of course, as jen says, will remain a force in the republican party, and this highlights this fracture, that she's not conservative enough. i want to go back to how we opened this with president biden calling out the groundbreaking. this is something the white house is really trying to lean into. they did a little bit earl early on in his term. this year, there's not going to be new legislation passed, rather, touting the victories they've accomplished. he is going to the districts and calling out republicans who are taking credit for things, for projects in their districts that they didn't vote for. they, frankly, opposed. they didn't cast their ballots for the infrastructure bill. it's one thing to do it in mtg's deep red district and congress man wilson's, but the white house is also going to be doing this, i'm told by aides, in the swing districts, for republicans who won seats in districts that biden captured in 2020. that right there, the white house believes, could have a real pressure point and could

potentially help them in their efforts to get back the house in 2020. remember, they need to pick up a handful of seats in a few of the battlegrounds. that could do it. >> we'll talk about this more at the top of the hour, in a few minutes. there's a reason republicans are taking credit for this, because it's popular. money is coming into their districts. we have new polling this morning that shows most americans think donald trump's federal trial should take place well before the 2024 general election. the latest survey from "politico" magazine and ipsos, 62% of americans think the former president should be tried before next november's contest. a smaller majority says it should be held before the republican primaries early next year. joining us now, former federal prosecutor, contributing writer for "politico" magazine. you write that there's a number of surprises in this poll. what else stood out to you,

beyond the top line number we read? >> the number has practical relevance to the proceeding here. the right to a speedy trial is a right to the defendant and belongs to the public, as well. the public's interest in this subject ought to be relevant. the most surprising figures, though, were on what impact the pending charges have on people's preferences for trump. particularly to note, there's obviously been a robust narrative on the part of trump and his allies, indicating the indictments are helping him, they're improving the intensity of his support. certainly, we've seen his standing improve over time in the polls of gop primary voters, but a lot has happened in the same period. the numbers on, specifically, this question of how do the charges influence your vote, seems to suggest among gop primary voters or republicans, it might be a wash. half say it doesn't have an effect.

a quarter says it improves their view of supporting him. a roughly comparable number says it decreases their likelihood to support trump. i thought it was an interesting figure that maybe adds some color to a narrative that has been lacking a little bit of data. >> ankush, what about other voters, though? i think this is typical for donald trump, that this sort of -- when he seems to be under attack, that submits republicans more to him, but does it detach of independence? does it detach other voters who might, you know, who might question, say, a federal conviction on felony charges? >> it does. not only do the pending charges adversity affect them among people who identify as independents, but not

surprisingly, if there were a conviction, that'd further deplete his support among that group. i share your view. a lot of the narrative around this area, even when trump was in office, he'd tout his poll numbers among republicans. of course, what is actually interesting is how the public across the whole entire voter, american public base, thinks about him. i don't think, just looking at numbers and history, we learned from 2020 that he cannot win a national election with only republicans, right? he needs some significant proportion of independents to pull over. these numbers suggest that, at least to me, that how they influence independents, the pending charges and a potential conviction, could eventually actually turn an election against him. >> by the way, this may be the first of many cases he is facing as he rolls through a 2024 presidential campaign. fascinating numbers. former federal prosecutor, contributing writer for "politico" magazine, ankush, thank you for being here. ahead, we'll look at headlines across the country,

including how a judge shortage in new jersey is impacting civil trials. plus, ups employees are preparing to go on strike. we'll have the latest on the ongoing contract negotiations when we talk to the head of the workers union. "morning joe" is coming right back. best friends for life. helicopter on your finger to get his attention like this. king king... ♪ he loves people. can't wait. ♪♪

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that's a beautiful live picture of rockefeller plaza, just outside of our building, as we come up near the top of the hour on a friday morning. how about a little baseball here? let's start in arizona, where the new york mets remain undefeated in july. how about that? after posting the worst month in franchise history just last month. a five-hit night for francisco lindor, including a solo shot there, lifting the mets to a 9-0 win. three-game sweep of the diamondbacks. more bad news for the d-backs, rookie all-star, corbin carroll, injured his shoulder, forcing him to leave the game

for the second time in a week. carroll will undergo imaging today. one of the bright, young stars of the game. hope he is okay. yes, mets are undefeated in july, but they're 17 1/2 games out in the n.l. east. jen palmieri, you turned my attention to a story i hadn't seen. sounds like the orioles beat the yankees. unfortunately, we were not reporting the game last night. we hit play and record at the same time on the vcr, and some went bad with the tape. we don't have footage. what happened in the bronx last night? >> i had to note that normally this show starts with chatter about the yankees or red sox when they are winning. there was no mention of the orioles crushing of the yankees last night, 14 runs on the orioles side. >> hmm. >> you know, we talk a lot about lemire's red sox, who are in fourth place or last name? >> we don't worry about it, we're in fifth. >> we talk a lot about the yankees. i root for the yankees when

they're not playing the o's, but we needed to give the o's a shoutout. >> john, gave up two touchdowns last night, the yankees to the orioles. is it a bad sign when your utility infielder is pitching the ninth inning for the yankees? >> that's not usually how you draw it up, when the skipper goes to the clubhouse before the game and says, "hey, you have the ninth." yeah, a rough one there for the bronx bombers. i will note, the red sox, though, won last night, 10-6, taking a series from the first place texas rangers. now, we're three days left until the all-star break, willie, which was always a great showcase. we were bemoaning yesterday, it is a shame shohei ohtani won't be able to pitch. hopefully he can hit. the game has a great first half of the season with the rule changes. fans seem to like it. attendance and tv ratings up, games going fast. it'll be great to see a showcase of the stars. a lot of young talent in this

sport right now. none of them play for the red sox. >> not at the moment. fun teams like the cincinnati reds sitting in first place. they may go to the all-star break in first. they've won five in a row, too. jen, we are working very hard. our staff is scrambling to find the footage. we'll bring it to you as soon as it becomes available to us. stay tuned. >> mm-hmm. it is the top of the hour now. it is friday, july 7th. joining the discussion, we've got the president of the national action network, the host ofmsnbc's "politics nation," reverend al sharpton. and pulitzer prize winning author and presidential historian doris kearns goodwin. good morning to you both. great to have you. you can weigh in on baseball if you want to, but we're going to start with president biden in south carolina yesterday, highlighting a new manufacturing project he says was made possible by the infrastructure bill. >> our plan is working. one of the things i'm proudest of is it is working everywhere, not just at the coast and big cities, like previous recoveries.

this time, factories are being built, jobs created, happening in rural america, the heartland, all across america. in communities that have been left out and hollowed out, this is what it looks like across the country. under my predecessor, infrastructure week became a punch line. every month -- anyway, i won't get into it. on my watch, we're making infrastructure a decade headline. a decade. my view is wherever the need is most, that's the place we should be helpful. that's what we're doing. the way i look at it, the progress we are making is good for all americans. all americans. let me close with this, i'm not here to declare victory on the economy. i'm here to say we have a plan that's turning things around quickly, but we have a lot more work to do. >> doris, a concerted effort here by president biden to use the bully pulpit, not just as he turns toward a presidential

campaign, but in his role as president itself, not as a candidate, to say, "wait a minute, guys, look at everything we've done in the last couple of years in terms of the economy. unemployment is at historic lows. inflation is ticking down." that's the case they're making right now. yet, you look at polling and americans are still uneasy about the economy. they don't think, according to polls, that president biden has done a good job of improving their lives through the economy. how have presidents in the past and how does this president get the message out when they feel like, actually, we've done a whole lot these first couple of years? >> well, you can't go against what people feel in their daily lives. certainly, jobs are doing well, but they still have a hard time getting an apartment maybe or inflation is still hurting them. it's hard to just tell them you're feeling good. i do have a feeling about the infrastructure. it's one of the things fdr did so brilliantly during the new deal. he got people to work in really good jobs. they built laguardia airport, the lincoln tunnel.

they did all sorts of dams and stuff, that's what is happening now. it'll just take a little longer before people feel it in their daily live. once they do, the connection is made, but it is hard for a person to tell you, "you should be feeling better." if you're not feeling better yet, they have to come around to a real feeling. >> rev, to that point, any president running for re-election is going to be judged, first and foremost, on their handling of the economy. we've seen it throughout american history. the white house feels good about it. they keep pointing to numbers, jobs are up. this is good. inflation cooled, though still higher than we want it to be. they're taking bidenomics, putting his name on it. this is a big part of it, the jobs here and what we heard from him yesterday. to doris' point, polls suggest americans still don't feel great about it. there's growing fears among democrats about voters not being that enthusiastic about president biden next time around. could this be an argument that helps? >> the argument that helps in this case is that it appears today his opponent will be

donald trump. so even if i'm saying, well, i don't feel it yet, if i'm comparing somebody that has done things that will get me to that feeling against someone that did nothing that would make me feel that, i'm going to go with the guy that i may not have the enthusiasm yet, but he has done some concrete things. at the end of the day, you have to vote for somebody. do you vote for the guy that told you to take bleach during covid, that didn't do anything but stack the state and federal courts with people that took women's right to choose, killed affirmative action, et cetera, or do you vote for the guy that did the infrastructure bill and inflation reduction bill? it may be a question of enthusiasm, but it is going to come down to choice. the challenge for the democrats is how you turn that better choice into enthuiasm so you get the turnout. >> jen, as you talk to people around the white house, i'm sure you hear what i do, they think

they're running against donald trump unless there's some political act of nature, even with all these indictments that are coming, things get more difficult for him perhaps. they believe he is the nominee. with that in mind, with the state of the economy in mind, with everything that's happened at the supreme court, not just in the last two weeks but in the last year or so, what is your platform? let's say you're helping to run, as you have other presidential campaigns, this one, this re-election effort for joe biden. what are you running on as you seek to return to the white house? >> the plan is working. you know, you heard -- i think the president used the exact words when he was in south carolina yesterday, said, "you may not be feeling -- i'm not saying the economy is great everywhere, but the point is, the plan is working. we are getting results." i think he made the argument in terms of the economy. by the way, i think they are doing a good job. it is really hard to break through with good news from the white house.

people know that is not the kind of news that normally gets covered, but they are doing this tour with him and with the cabinet in a smart way, to focus on infrastructure, chips, et cetera, by going to red states, battleground districts. they've layered a political element into the travel, it is breaking through. the plan is working with the economy, but also normalcy, right? you're going to be running against trump, which they see as a chaos candidate. we see democracy was upheld, that the election held. congress is starting -- you know, he got a lot done in congress. it was operating in a bipartisan manner, even more so than it has in probably two decades. both in terms of making government work but also just the economy, i think that is, you know, stick with the plan, finish the job, right? that's how he announced the re-election campaign, that was the message they used. >> doris, i mentioned the

supreme court decisions last week. we haven't spoken to you since then. i'm curious about your reaction as you look at affirmative action, you look at president biden's effort to forgive student loan debt, as you look at religious rights in one case, lgbtq rights, and going back a year ago, of course, to abortion rights. what does it all amount to for you as you look through these decisions? >> you know, it was interesting, you had a poll yesterday that you were talking to with john della volpe about the gen-z people. they rightly feel they are under attack in terms of abortion rights, student loans, climate change, gun safety. yet, the sad thing is many are feeling they can't change the system because the supreme court has come out with all these decisions and it seems there is nothing they can do about it. that's not true. they can fight for that. if you change the congress, you might get a codified roe. change state legislatures, you could do away with the abortion bans. they have to believe again that activism, which they were so important in 2018 midterms, 2020

election, '22 midterms, the young people really led the way. think about -- i'd love to talk with the rev about this. young people were instrumental in the civil rights movement in the 1960s. what if they had given up after fighting for years, the freedom riders, the selma demonstrations put the voting rights on the book. that allowed lyndon johnson to say the fire of the conscience has been raised, and now i'll go for the next step of the civil rights movement, affirmative action. 1965, when i look back, the whole country wasn't just wanting to do something for black people, they wanted to do it for the promise of america. they felt, we'd be a better country by having rights expanded for all. that's why lyndon johnson was able to say the beginning of affirmative action, you can't take the starting line and expect them, if they've been hobbled by chains to compete and

think you're being fair. he meant the chains of slavery, discrimination, jim crow, red lining, and the majority of the country went with that. he said, men and women have a different range of abilities. the same range of abilities, really, but it depends on whether it is stunted or stretched by the neighborhood they live in, the family they grow up in, the richness or the poverty of their surroundings. we've got to do something to equalize that. that was a time when you felt great about being part. i'm so glad to have grown up in the '60s, to be in the civil rights march in '63. it was the public highlight of my light. 250,000 other people were there, too, but i was there. i'd love to hear what the ref thinks. we have to instill the spirit in young people. the system can be changed. it's been changed in the past. history shows it. they've got to fight for it. >> i think doris is exactly right because that generation of young people, you have to remember the freedom riders and others, the student non-violent

coordinating committee, these were young people in their late teens and 20s. i was ten years behind them. i grew up feeling i could do something because they were young and they did it. john lewis, jesse jackson, these were the students that were the front line of the movement that changed america and that led to, as she rightfully says, the voting rights act and the civil rights act. dr. king never made it to 40 years old, and he was considered the old. he was killed at 39. so was malcolm x. those of us that came behind that young guard felt -- i was a teenager, 13 when i became youth director of new york operation bread basket. i think what we have to do for young people today is say, yes, it does look bleak. affirmative action killed. women's right to choose, all of this. and it's bleak because we didn't do what we should have done in terms of voting. how did the supreme court get

stacked? by donald trump getting elected and not enough of us standing and making sure he was blocked in '16. the way to do it is to show the method is that we don't give up, we give more. that's what they did in the '60s. that's what was done in the '80s when we were able to reenergize the movement. that's what's happened with the george floyd movement. but you can't have a two-year run. there is a marathon run, and i think that a lot of young people that got that hope a couple years ago with george floyd needs to understand, when you collapse before you get to the finish line, no matter how well you ran, the finish line is what you have to go across. donald trump was able to go across that finish line and put a third of the supreme court there. you've got to take that back. you've got to put in them the belief they can take that back because that's how this country works. >> hoorah for you, no question about it. you know, one of the difficulties now, too, is that many states are banning even

discussions about racism, even discussions about divisive topics. even jim crow people are afraid they might not be able to teach that. if we don't teach the history of the fights we made in the past that made us a better country, we're not even having a chance. that's why i love history so much. it reminds us, as your passion does right now, of what happens wen people come together and they believe they can make a difference. you know, one of the things lincoln always said was that the promise of america was that everybody should be able to rise to the level of their talent and discipline, and the system should be created to make that opportunity possible. that's what affirmative action was about. that's what the civil rights, voting rights was all about. we have to fight again, and the gen-z people have to be at the front. i hope they're listening to you and your passion today. >> i hope so, too. >> we're going to come back to this topic. it is an important one, doris. stay with us. we have more on this investigation into the cocaine. yes, the cocaine found at the white house. multiple officials are now saying the drug was found in a

cubby near the west executive drive entrance. you can see it on the map there. not in the west wing lobby as previously reported. that entrance is off of the drive where the vice president's limo or suv parks, and it is one level below the main west wing offices. also on the same floor as the situation room. the area is frequented by vips and escorted visitors, tourists, staff, military, and facilities operations employees. sources now telling nbc news they expect the investigation into the matter to be finished by monday instead of taking a couple weeks, as previously reported. however, the same officials keeping their expectations low when it comes to finding the person who brought the cocaine into the white house. small developments every day it seems like in this, jonathan lemire. now, we know at least where it was found. why the skepticism, though, that we might not find out who it belongs to?

>> the changing story has raised some eyebrows, willie. we should just note, where they now say the drug was found, that's still a pretty busy area. it's not the main west wing entrance. there is a driveway between the west wing and the executive office building, and a lot of the motorcade parks in there, as noted the vice president's cars, as well. there's a fair amount of foot traffic coming in and out. that said, it is less busy than the main west wing lobby where we originally thought the cocaine was found. fewer random people invited in by west wing staffers. so this, some people believe, perhaps, increases the likelihood that it was someone working in the building who had the cocaine, but the secret service is clear to say they don't know for sure. we're expecting updates in the days ahead. the president will be out of town again this weekend, delaware, and then europe all of next week. we know the agents are reviewing the security footage and, perhaps, they'll be able to

identify a culprit in a few days. there's a busy area and a lot of foot traffic back and forth. >> john, you never know what you're going to be talking about when you sign up to cover the white house. >> no. >> maybe we'll have more answers in a few days. meanwhile, it has been two weeks now since a russian mercenary group and its leader turned troops on vladimir putin and threatened the russian president's power in a way we had not seen before. although most americans has never heard the name yevgeny prigozhin before last month, his influence and meddling in american politics goes back years. nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel has more on that in a special episode of his series, "on assignment," which airs tonight. here is richard with a preview. >> reporter: of course, we're talking about yevgeny prigozhin now because he took an army of mercenaries and marched them toward moscow and, shockingly, met little resistance along the way. but prigozhin has a long history of doing sensitive, off the books missions for the kremlin,

including targeting the 2016 election with a disinformation campaign to help donald trump. multiple u.s. intelligence agencies concluded putin wanted trump to win the 2016 election. but intervening directly was a risky proposition, even for the kremlin. so prigozhin catered to the boss. prigozhin didn't just have the wagner group, the private contractors fighting in syria. he had another side business, a troll farm that pumped out disinformation, mainly against russian dissidents. he now turned his keyboard warriors against the united states. >> he, in some ways, contributed to the narrative that grew up around hillary clinton and donald trump. >> using facebook, using twitter, using other kinds of ways to try to manipulate information inside the united states to try to help mr. trump

win the election. >> reporter: prigozhin had been a jack of all trades for president putin with a bot farm churning out disinformation and his army of mercenaries. it all made him powerful enough or believe he was powerful enough to challenge president putin. >> a look at "on assignment with richard engel, revolt from within," premiering tonight at 11:00 eastern here on nbc and streaming on peacock. ahead on "morning joe," it's been nearly 80 years since the united states dropped two atopic bombs on japan, ending the final conflict of world war ii. we'll be joined by the director of nbc's documentary about the bomb and the scientist who created the weapons of mass destruction. also ahead, an update on contract negotiations that could have significant impact on the packages delivered to your door. and we are about an hour away from the release of the june jobs numbers. we'll bring that data to you when it comes across and tell

you how wall street is reacting when "morning joe" comes right back.

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this month marks 78 years since the first successful detonation of an atom bomb, known as the trinity test. in a new documentary, it tells the story behind the lead scientist who built the bomb. oppenheimer. the documentary is "to end all war: open haimer and the atomic bomb." the film premieres sunday at 10:00 p.m. eastern, right here on msnbc. here's a look. >> we interrupt this program with a special bulletin, president roosevelt is dead. the president died of a cerebral hemorrhage. >> april 1945 was one of those months in which the fate of the world seemed to turn on a dime.

>> fdr dies, followed by hitler committing suicide. >> hitler's empire burns and shrivels. >> the bomb was conceived in an anti-hitler fervor. spring of 1945, hitler is out of the picture. nazis are no longer a threat. hitler isn't going to build an atomic bomb and drop it on new york, that's not going to happen, but there was no way they were not going to finish that weapon. >> they wanted to make this happen. they didn't want the war to end before it happened. oppenheimer wanted the bomb to be used because how else would the world know what it was? >> harry s. truman was sworn in as president of the united states. >> by the time truman gets to the presidency, the wheels are in motion. this bomb is going to be dropped somewhere. with the death of hitler, the target then becomes japan. >> joining us now, the film's executive producer and director,

chris castle, and pulitzer prize-winning historian and journalist kai bird, co-author of the book, "the triumph and tragedy of j. robert oppenheimer," which inspired the upcoming film, "oppenheimer," directed by christopher nolan. kai, i had a chance to see the christopher nolan move view in i i imax. it blew me out of the theater. this is great for 20th century history. we gobble it up. it's so good. paint a picture of the circumstances, as we just saw, hitler has died and now the focus is on japan and ending the war and how things really went into warp speed to get this bomb built. >> oh, absolutely. oppenheimer is at the center of this whole story. we come back to him repeatedly

because he's the father of the atomic bomb, and he's given us the dawn of the atomic age. we're still living with that weapon and trying to figure out how to live with it. of course, he was determined to make sure that the world understood during world war ii what had been created. one of his arguments was that this weapon needed to be understood as something so large that it would make all war impossible in the future, that it was such a terrible weapon. >> chris, as you set out to make "to end all war," this extraordinary documentary film coming to msnbc this weekend, what surprised you? i think a lot of us have a knowledge of who robert oppenheimer is, of course, and a little bit about the story behind the race to build the

bomb and to end world war ii, but what about the story did you find you didn't know, you didn't realize? >> yeah, well, i think one thing that was interesting which was an aside which we talk about at the end, he essentially discovered black holes before they were discovered, which is something not often talked about in terms of looking back at his resume. the same day that germany invaded poland in 1939, he published a paper basically predicting that black holes could exist. of course, they weren't discovered until 1971, after he died. it's always been said that, you know, had they been discovered when he was alive, that he may have won a nobel prize for that work, which is something that eluded him his entire life. so that was really interesting, a little bit. >> he never did win the nobel prize. >> yeah. >> doris, this film, the msnbc film and also the christopher nolan film, i'll get into the moral debate that has been going

on for nearly eight decades now about using the atomic bomb. the argument was it ended the war, prevented more death down the road. of course, te tens of thousands civilians were killed in hiroshima and nagasaki to bring the war to an end, and that debate continues. >> the wonderful thing that sounds like this film will be like, you can tell history through biography. through the oppenheimer character, so integral by creating the bomb but haunted by hoping this would be the end to all wars. what is important to remember about the moment that truman decided to let the bomb go, which roosevelt decided before to do before he died, we were facing, even though germany was collapsing, we were facing the possibility that japan was not going to surrender. we have to remember there was a thought there might be a million lives lost in conquering japan. the moral part is complimented, but that is the historical part that has to be remembered. that's what they were facing, not to test the bomb and see how it worked, even though that

became something. when you think of putin throwing around the possibility of nuclear bomb, it just shows you how crazy that is, given what we were going to be seeing, i'm sure, in this film. i can't wait to see it. >> kai, that raises the question, too, did oppenheimer really believe, did he tell himself this, or did he actually believe that creating this bomb may actually end all war, the horror of seeing an atomic bomb detonate over japan twice may end war and nobody would want to use it again? >> well, that was his feeling. there were debates going on in los alamos at the time in the spring of 1945. why are we working so hard to build this thing if germany is defeated? oppenheimer interviewed at a crucial meeting in which his physicists were discussing this, debating it. last day of 1939, niles bore had

arrived in los alamos, the famous danish physicist, and he had one question for oppenheimer. he said, "robert, is it big enough? is it big enough to end all war?" oppenheimer was impressed by this argument. he thought that, you know, you could not uninvent what had been discovered, and, therefore, you had to demonstrate to the world the power of this terrible weapon. now, he didn't -- it wasn't his decision to how to use it, but he knew it was going to be used in combat. and he knew there needed to be a large enough target to demonstrate it. that meant a city, a whole city. it's extraordinary that we are still living with this bomb and we're still living with the possibility that it could be used again. look at the war in ukraine. so it's a very relevant story.

but i'd also like to say that, you know, picking up on the theme of biography, i think both the documentary and christopher nolan's film with deeply biographical. you know, this is a story people are going to go in and think that they're going to see a film about the atomic bomb, the making of this new weapon, but, actually, they're going to walk out and they're going to see a biography, a deeply intimate story of this complicated human being, oppenheimer. all biography is essentially a mystery story, and that's what nolan has done. he's created a very intimate mystery story about this complicated human being. >> chris, oppenheimer, of course, the main character here, but let's take a minute talking about another important player, president harry s. truman, who was famously kept in the dark by president roosevelt, even though

truman was vp. he didn't know anything about this project. only learned about it upon fdr's death. just tell us a little bit about that moment for truman, to find out about this immense power, and the struggles he had in deciding to deploy it, not just once but twice. >> yeah, so truman looms large in the story for sure. so when he comes to power, he's first told about this project. he had no project of it. immediately, you know, this is also at a time when, you know, their focus is shifting to japan and they're starting to have conversations about, you know, germany is off the table at this point, let's target japan. truman really twists the screws on the manhattan project and really wants this thing as quickly as possible. so we talk about how when he goes to potsdam to meet with stalin and churchill in the summer of '45, he wants to go in knowing that the bomb works. oppenheimer and his team are under immense pressure to get this thing done and to test it, which is the trinity test, which

happens in the new mexico desert. it's the first mushroom cloud in history, the first time an atomic bomb has ever been detonated. when word comes through that was successful, truman is giddy. we have this footage of him shaking hands with statin and churchill, life of the party. he knows that he's got a win now. that's an interesting moment. another really great moment with oppenheimer and truman is after the war, oppenheimer goes to see him in the oval office. he's really struggling to come to terms with what's happened in japan. even though he had full knowledge that, you know, this was going to occur and thousands would die, you know, it weighs heavily on his conscience. he goes to see truman and says, "mr. president, i have blood on my hands." kai talks about this in the film. truman does not want to hear this from oppenheimer. i mean, truman, as far as he is concerned, it was his responsibility. he essentially kicks him out of his office and says, "i never

want to see that crybaby scientist ever again." so you do get a feel for truman during this period, you know, in the film, and it's really interesting. >> yeah, extraordinary moment. we do, as i say, we learn so much new about it you may not have known before. chris, kai, thank you both for being here. "to end all war: oppenheimer and the atomic bomb," premieres this sunday, 10:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc and streams the next day on peacock. it is well worth your time. and christopher nolan's film "oppenheimer" comes out in theaters on july the 21st. doris kearns goodwin, thank you so much. great to have you here for all the conversations, as always. enjoy the weekend. we'll see you soon. coming up next here, contract talks between ups and its workers broke down this week. if there is not a deal soon, it could lead to one of the largest strikes in american history. the teamsters general president

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beautiful live picture of the white house. 7:38 on a friday morning. the international brotherhood of teamsters, the union that represents more than 300,000 ups employees, has announced strike preparations are moving into, quote, high gear after contract negotiations collapsed on wednesday. both, ups and negotiators for the employees blamed each other for the talks breaking down, with the teamsters saying ups walked away from the table and ups is saying the union stopped negotiations. 24 days before the current ups employee contract expires. for an update, let's bring in

the general president for the teamsters, sean o'brien. thanks for being with us this morning. i'll let you walk us through the state of negotiations from your point of view, but also important to point out to viewers, what happens if this strike goes on on july 31st? if there is no deal before then, what does that mean for consumers? what does that mean for the economy? >> well, if there is no deal by july 31st, then ups chose to strike themselves. we've made a lot of progress since january. we've got 44 supplements nationwide, international agreement. we've come to agreement on most of the terms. now, strictly, we're down to economics. july 5th at 4:15 a.m., ups said they had no more to give. we were talking about part-timers. part-time poverty doesn't work anymore in this country. they said they had no more to give, and that was it. we've been making plans in case they don't come to their senses and choose to strike themselves on what we're going to do. >> sean, let's talk a little more about the economics of it. you say that's the difference.

give us more specifics of what that means, particularly at a time we've seen inflation soar in recent years. >> what you see is, you know, our members, the 340,000, provide goods and service for the most difficult times, the pandemic, with total disregard for their health and safety of their families. ups has record profits over those years, and now it's time to pay the people that made them the success they are. they'll be out there saying, you know, our employees make $93,000. that might be true for the tractor drivers but they're working 60, 65 hours a week. they don't tell you about the unsung heros in the building. unless a package is loaded on the trucks, they're not delivered. those are the single mothers, those working three jobs trying to make a living. they need to be taken care of and rewarded. ups chose not to do it right now. ups knows exactly what we need to get this contract done. >> sean, when you sat down, you said at this point, the white house hasn't been involved. you note there is no labor secretary at the moment.

speak if you will to this national moment we're in, about workers and, frankly, about strikes or threats thereof. the writers strike, of course, out in hollywood. we've had the train conductors threatening. restaurant workers, this. why is this happening right now, and is it connected to the pandemic? >> i think what it is is people are fed up with seeing how many -- these big corporations rake in all these profits, you know, and don't reward the people that make them a success. it's great for the labor movement because people are finally realizing, it's about main street. it's not wall street anymore. the people that provide the goods and services should be awarded accordingly. ups has the right opportunity right now to be the model of how corporations should treat their people. they should be out there making certain they are paying the folks the right way, they're providing good work and conditions. look, anything that happens july 31st or after that, we don't get an agreement, that is a self-inflicted wound ups is putting into themselves. >> sean, by the way, you get a

lot of accolades from fellow labor leaders, lee sanders and others. doesn't this come down to when you look at how ups made great profits during the pandemic, while a lot of your members were put at risk if life and limb, and it seems as though they at ups are oblivious to the sacrifices? and the fact that, as you say, some of them are living almost at poverty level. when they made a bonanza of money during the pandemic, i mean, isn't it about sensitivity and corporate accountability? >> it's about $100 billion that ups made. >> $100 billion. >> $100 billion. it is embarrassing for them when their part-timers who provide the goods and services, load the trucks, sacrifice time at home, are living in subsidized housing or maybe on a food stamp program. it is embarrassing for them.

they have an opportunity to shine as a corporation, do the right thing, and provide opportunities for these part-timers, forjobs, as well. everybody in the neighborhoods see their ups driver, him or her delivering the packages, they're happy. they don't see the unsung heros sacrificing inside the warehouses with extreme conditions. they should be rewarded accordingly. >> sean, before we let you know, give an update as to what is next with the deadline looming. are more talks scheduled? >> ups knows exactly what they need to do to get a deal. we are very close at one point, and we've been clear, we've stated our intentions all along, we've made progress. ups wants a deal, they know what they need to do. >> teamsters general president sean o'brien, let's hope this gets involved for workers and also for the american people who count on the hard and excellent work they do every day. we appreciate you being here. thanks o much. >> thank you, sir. up next, some of the stories making the front pages of papers across the country, including fda approval for a drug to treat

alzheimer's. some exciting news there. plus, a look at the legal fight between twitter and meta now. going to the courts over the new app, threads. we'll be right back on "morning joe."

look at that, beautiful picture of the library in philadelphia, as we come up at the top of the hour. twitter has threatened to sue meta over its new app less than 24 hours after it launched. nbc news national correspondent miguel almaguer has more on the early success of threads and the social media feud it is causing. >> reporter: meta's new app, threads, has two of the most powerful tech giants in the world facing off. >> the battle for the digital age, it's really a battle for the 21st century. >> reporter: meta ceo mark zuckerberg boasting, threads had 30 million sign-ups in the

platform's first 24 hours. now, there's word twitter ceo elon musk is threatening to sue the rival platform. musk tweeting, competition is fine. cheating is not. meta denying any wrongdoing. the potential legal move showcasing a longstanding rivalry between the companies' billionaire owners. >> it's a rivalry that goes back many years. we have seen signs of this tension brewing before. but it's taken to a new level now. >> reporter: reaction to the new app has been mixed. >> threads is amazing. everybody needs it get on it, because it's better than twitter. >> threads is fundamentally flawed as a social media app. >> reporter: some users complain about a lack of features, like no direct messaging. others are worried about privacy concerns. >> they collect financial information, conduct information, browsing history, search history, identifier

sensitive information. >> reporter: the apps are linked. it's easy to sign up and gain a following. some are frustrated you can't delete your thread account without also deleting instagram. something meta says they are looking into. zuckerberg acknowledging, it will take some time to work out the kinks, while still poking at twitter for not yet reaching a billion users. >> this is an epic brawl. what we have now is kind of an eruption of that kind of ego and bravado and willingness to kind of spar in the public that is incredibly rare. >> miguel almaguer reporting there. jonathan lemire, in addition to the random people with outrage on tiktok, we wanted your opinion. i know you signed up for threads. how is it? >> our lead threads correspondent is off today. i will step in to the void. you know how it is.

i clicked on the button to claim my account. i haven't used it yet. the report did raise a few concerns i have heard from people about privacy issues. the fact it's linked to stain gram mak -- instagram makes it easy to sign up. twitter is a work thing. instagram is more private, photos and such. we will see. we know that elon musk and mark zuckerberg are taking cage fight. i doubt they get in the ring on that. there's a legal battle here. what do you think? is this an opportunity? are you going to give it a shot? >> i think it's opportunity. the question is, can they deal with the issues of privacy and others being raised? i think a lot of people are saying, well, elon musk, because of some of his politics, would rather have an alternative. i think that overlaps.

the network that handles my social media asked me about threads. i thought they were talking about my wardrobe. >> those are immaculate. >> i didn't know what it was. i think we are going to try to use both. i think that a cage fight is something that i would not recommend, because i understand that zuckerberg has been getting trained by jujitsu experts. elon might be biting off more than he can chew. they better stay in the arena of billionaire fighting over their social media outlets. >> courtroom, not the cage. >> zuckerberg is wearing the baby gap t-shirt to accentuate the work he has been doing in the gym. we begin in new jersey, where the south jersey times reports three counties are set to resume civil trials. cases have been paused in six counties in february amid a shortage of judges. now the state's supreme court

says some of the vacancies have been filled. still, officials say in the last three years, there has been an average of more than 60 open judicial positions across the state. the staten island advance has a feature on new york city, possibly using schools to house migrants. the city has taken in more than 84,000 asylum seekers since last spring. several churches, other buildings have been turned into shelters. the mayor says those are reaching capacity. his office now is looking into temporarily using schools while they are closed for the summer. in tennessee, the jackson sun leads with a new lawsuit the state has filed against more than 20 chemical manufacturers. it argues companies like 3m and dupont have sold products containing so-called forever chemicals despite knowing the risk they pose to people's health. those chemicals often are found in things like teflon pans. this follows a class action lawsuit companies settled for 12

12$.5 billion with public water systems across the country. in massachusetts, the boston globe has a front page feature on the fda approving a drug to treat alzheimer's. clinical trials show it can modestly slow cognitive decline in people with early alzheimer's. it carries the risk of side effects like swelling or bleeding on the brain. it cost more than $26,000 a year for a patient. medicare administrators have indicated the federal government will cover the cost for those who meet certain medical requirements. potentially some great and much needed news in the area of alzheimer's treatment. in legal analysis on what is next for donald trump's co-defendant in the classified documents case and what's around the corner for donald trump himself. the former president and his top challenger in the race are reporting new campaign fund-raising numbers. the cash does come with some

caveats. we will explain all of that just ahead on "morning joe." your shipping manager left to “find themself.” leaving you lost.

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i think he could not and still cannot to this day deal with the fact he is the only person outside of the state of delaware to lose to joe biden. he wanted to pretend he was president and show these things to people and say look what i have, look what i still know. >> presidential candidate chris christie with his thoughts on why donald trump may have kept classified documents at his florida golf resolve. it comes as the co-defendant in the case makes his first appearance in court. in the race for the republican nomination, donald trump is bringing in a good deal of cash.

there are questions about where all that money is going. we will look into it. more on the story we have been following all week, the cocaine found at the white house. we are learning about where it was discovered and who had access to that area. treasury secretary janet yellen kicks off high level meetings in china with criticism of how beijing treats american companies. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." i'm willie geist. with us, jonathan lemire, former white house director of communications to president obama, jen palmeri and columnist, eugene robinson. good morning. we will dive in with former president trump's personal aide and co-defendant walt nauta. he has been arraigned on six federal charges in the classified documents case. he pleaded not guilty to all counts in federal court in florida yesterday. this was the third attempt to

arraign nauta who was able to hire a florida-based attorney who allowed the proceeding to take place. it lasted about five minutes with nauta's attorney entering a not guilty plea on his client's behalf. nauta is accused of acting as trump's co-conspirator in helping him to hide top secret national security files from investigators after trump left the white house. the charges against him include conspiracy to obstruct justice, withholding a document or record, and making false statements. nauta faces up to 20 years in prison if convicted. let's bring in barbara mcquad. at least they got walt nauta arraigned. he found an attorney who could represent him in florida. what is his place in this? an alleged co-conspirator with donald trump. >> it's fair to say he is a

lesser player than donald trump who abused his position as president allegedly to take these boxes and willfully retain them. walt nauta is a very instrumental figure here. we learned earlier this week in that less redacted version of the affidavit some more detail about his role. one of the things that was striking to me is we know from the indictment that he was interviewed in may and said, i don't know anything about any boxes. wish i could help you. it turns out when the government got the video of the recordings of the movement of the boxes, it was the day before he was interviewed that he was seen moving those boxes in and out of the storage room. his lies are very clear there. in addition, he moved boxes according to the video out of the storage room, moves some back into the storage room but not all of them. then he is seen escorting trump's lawyer into the room to do that review of documents. clearly knowing it didn't contain all of the documents.

i think his role here is significant. his exposure is also potentially many years in prison. >> walt nauta is incredibly loyal to donald trump. we see him out staffing donald trump as a personal aide. the judge has instructed the two not to discuss the case. we will leave it to our viewers to decide if they think donald trump can exercise that level of restraint. do you believe there's any possibility of walt nauta finding a deal here? is he going to fight this on the instructions of donald trump? >> you never know. i have had defendants that you are certain had said, i will never, ever take a deal come to you with their hat in their hand asking for a deal as the trial date approaches. it's always a possibility. i think his best option for a deal has come and gone. if he wanted to cooperate, he had the opportunity to provide value before the government amassed all of this other

evidence from other sources, a year ago, six months ago. i think his ability to cooperate now has been greatly diminished. i'm sure if he said, i would like a plea deal, the government would listen. he might have more information that he can shed light on. it's always a possibility. but i think as every day goes by, his value diminishes. >> this was the third attempt to actually arraign mr. nauta because he hadn't retained legal counsel that could work in florida until yesterday. that led some to suspect, that's a delay tactic, that's the first of many that the trump side is going to utilize. i want your take on that. going forward here, we know this is a complicated case. we know classified materials are involved. that's going to slow things down. how do you see this playing out? do you think this case will start in a december trial date that it currently has? >> i don't know about the december trial date. that might be ambitious. i think we will learn more next week when the parties go in to

visit with the court for a conference, the classified information procedures. they will work through how they will deal with discovery and motions and trial handling these classified documents. i think based on that, we're going to get a better sense of what a more realistic trial date looks like. i think it's feasible we could have a trial early 2024. i imagine donald trump's strategy will be to delay it past the election. >> prosecutors are getting threats around this case as "th that some of the prosecutors are facing harassment, threats online and elsewhere. that's according to extremism experts and an official familiar with this. doj officials have responded by trying to keep the names of prosecutors and agents working on the trump cases from becoming

public in official documents, congressional hearings and in less formal conversations about the case. two officials tell the post, federal agencies have not about served an increase in threats against law enforcement overall in the weeks since trump was indicted. that's a major contrast from a surge of reported violent rhetoric against fbi agents in the days following the search of mar-a-lago last august. as a former prosecutor yourself, how common is this stuff? how seriously do you take it? obviously, this comes from the top, donald trump calling into question everything about this case saying it's a witch hunt, painting himself as a martyr. how did you as a prosecutor handle this? how does doj handle it now? >> this is not normal. from time to time prosecutors do get death threats. it may be based on someone that they are prosecuting. i think we have reached a different era when we are crowdsourcing these threats. any time former president donald

trump says these things about witch hunts and hoaxes, calling for the de-funding of doj, there is the risk that someone out there is going to hear that and take matters into their own hands and go after these prosecutors. i have had threats. others have had threats. the marshall service can provide protection, sometimes 24/7. it's resource intensive. the prosecutors have better things to do than to be checking in with their security detail. they have lives. they hav errands in their personal lives. >> of course, we saw these threats to secretaries of state, attorneys general in the states where the election was in dispute and donald trump was pushing his law about them -- his lies.

thanks so much. great to have your insight. despite the indictments or better perhaps because of them, former president trump has nearly doubled his campaign fund-raising. according to officials, trump brought in more than $35 million in the second quarter, compared to the first three months of the year when he raised nearly $19 million. not clear exactly how much of the money is going to the campaign and how much is going to his save america pac which was helping to fund the legal bills. at least 10% of donations have been going to the pac. eugene robinson, this is in line with what we have seen in the polls, that donald trump has surged because of the indictments against him, because of the picture he painted of himself as a martyr and that he needs your money, he says, to his supports to fight them, to pay his legal bills despite the fact he claims to be a billionaire. he has senator lindsey graham weeping on television asking trump supporters to send money to pay the legal bills of a

billionaire. this is how he does business. the larger point is, he is surging in the polls and raising more money because of the indictments against him. >> yeah. when you look at the money and where it's going, you do have to remember always watch for the grift when it comes to trump. i would assume a lot of the money they are giving thinking is going to the campaign is going to a legal defense or somehow go to trump. that aside, sure, his base has rallied behind him. these indictments in terms of fund-raising have been a boon to the former president. this is the counterintuitive, crazy way that trump and maga work. this is going to be really something for somebody like ron desantis to try to overcome.

you are going to need a lot of money if you are going to knock off donald trump in the primaries. desantis does have a decent amount of money. he has a lot left over from his gubernatorial campaign the last time. he is not raising it at the clip that trump is. it's another indicator of how trump really is ahead for the republican presidential nomination. >> here are those numbers following donald trump's disclosure of fund-raising. the desantis campaign announced the florida governor raised $20 million in the first six weeks of his presidential campaign. his super pac never back down is called and they raised $130 million. more than $80 million of that is leftover money from his gubernatorial re-election campaign. in an interview on fox, desantis was asked about his poll numbers, which have fallen in some surveyed since his campaign launch. here is what he said. >> if you look at the people

like the corporate media, who are they going after? who do they not want to be the nominee? theying after me. who is the president of mexico attacking because they know we will hold him accountable? he is going after me. i think if you look at all these people that are responsible for a lot of the ills in our society, they are targeting me as the person they don't want to see as the candidate. we have a huge amount of support to be able to take the case to the people. we really haven't started that. we are in the process of building out a great organization. i think we're going to be on the ground in early states. it's three yards and a cloud of dust situation. >> jen, as you reminded us, it's very early going in this campaign. governor desantis is right about that. he has had some time here to introduce himself and at least within the republican primary, many voters have said, eh, and donald trump's support has increased over the last few weeks. >> he is doing a great job being

the runner-up. it's as if his campaign is designed not to beat trump but to be the heir to trump. his assumption being at some point the indictments become too much, that people -- that republican voters get concerned that trump can't get elected, and he is there to inherit the trump base. that is not how you win a presidential primary. he is not -- it's weirdly running to the right of trump. we saw the bizarre homophobic video that he did a week ago attacking trump. trump has vulnerabilities. you could, as a republican candidate -- desantis could be running a strong campaign against trump based on him not being electable.

instead, he is attacking him from the right and saying he is not doing enough to restrict lgbt rights. that's not what the maga base is going to go for. he raised $20 million. that's a big number. we should not discount that. can he keep that up? trump seems to have the ability to keep that money going, playing the victim. i'm not sure that desantis is going to be able to hit a big number like that in the next quarter. >> jen, you have talked to voters, i have talked to voters -- some say i want trump to run now. desantis, maybe he is our '28 guy. i think it's interesting trump has said, desantis is damaging himself for his '28 chances. >> it's a good troll. i don't know, desantis is doing harm. >> he has undeniable trolling skills. we can agree on that. let's talk about it. desantis is raising money. his polls are going in the wrong

direction. we note if he can turn that around. it's clear there's an opening for someone else to jump forward and become the trump alternative. are you seeing any movement? is there any momentum within the party, even if it's not registering among voters, as to who the next person up might be? >> no. is there chris christie. he has a wee bit of momentum behind him. he is taking trump on in terms of him being able to win an election. that's having a small impact. there are republican voters that are very open to that argument. i have heard people say, you know, tim scott is interesting to me or i heard people say in iowa, nikki haley is interesting to me. is there anyone that -- there's no one who is putting all the pieces together. there's no one making the electability argument the way chris christie is doing with an

argument on -- with a policy argument behind it and saying, i'm fighting for you. chris christie came closest to that when he said last week -- i heard him say, he is for himself. he is no longer for you. chris christie is the imperfect messenger for that. i just don't -- it's still early and a lot could happen and all of that. it may be that the next round of indictments is the straw that breaks the camel's back and people say, it's just too much, he can't beat biden. every indication we have thus far is, there's no candidate that's putting it all together in a way that could be a serious rival to trump and these indictments are not hurting him. they are coalescing more support behind him. >> they are deepening his support with his core followers. there's no sign that's going to change with whatever indictment comes next. an update on a story we brought you yesterday.

mike pence was pressed by a voter in iowa earlier this week about his decision to certify the 2020 election results back on january 6, 2021. here again is that exchange. >> if it wasn't for your vote, we would not have joe biden in the white house. that was a constitutional right that you had to send those votes back to the states. >> the states conduct our elections. you never want to let washington, d.c. run elections. the constitution affords no authority for the vice president or anyone else to reject those or return votes to the states. never been done before. should never be done in the future. i'm sorry, ma'am, that's what the constitution says. president trump is wrong about my authority and he is still wrong. >> a little difficult to hear that exchange. as we discussed yesterday, vice president pence there rebutting the argument that he had the power on january 6 to overturn

the results of the election. as the woman put it there, send it back to the states. yesterday, our panel questioned whether pence's answer would do anything to change the mind of a voter like the one he was speaking to there. now we have our answer. >> it becomes very difficult to figure out how do you convince them otherwise? the facts are what they are. pence was very forthright. did he actually convince her? that's the challenge, of course. >> what do you think after hearing mr. pence's answer? >> i believe he is a good man. i love the fact that he is strengthened by his faith. i really do feel like he altered history. >> would you consider supporting mr. pence after listening to him today? >> i would consider it. but he has that one hiccup. >> he has that one strike against him, eugene robinson.

that seems to be the sense of the voter there, the woman in sioux city, iowa, what listened to pence say he didn't have the power. it speaks to the power of everything voters like her and supporters of donald trump and people who watch certain news networks and listen to certain podcasts and read certain websites have been told, that he let them down, that donald trump has told them that it was mike pence's fault that joe biden is president. >> the interesting thing is that it is almost not just a matter of a fact for that voter. it's a matter of faith. it's trying to change someone's faith. trying to convince her of something that she just simply does not believe at her core. that is an enormous challenge. you can call the trump following

cult-like. i have called it cult-like. but it is unquestioning and unwilling in many cases -- in the case of many voters, unwilling to listen to any evidence to the contrary or evidence contrary to the thesis that donald trump is the savior of america. how do you combat that? none of the republican hopefuls seems to have an answer. still ahead, tensions continue to rise between russia and the united states in the skies over syria. we will explain what's happening now. russian president vladimir putin wants a seat at the table when it comes to internet oversight on a global level. "the washington post's" david ignasius joins us with that when we come back. e back

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the united states' military says russian jets targeted u.s. military aircraft flying over syria two days in a row this week. defense officials say russian planes flew close to american drones near northwest syria and dropped flares in front of them. on wednesday, military officials say three american drones were conducting a mission against islamic state targets in syria when three russian fighter jets began to harass them. it comes after russian jets flu over an american base in syria nearly every day in march. joining us now, david ignasius. let's start right there. what is russia up to exactly here?

admiral was here with us yesterday. what is vladimir putin doing with these chasing american aircraft with his fighter jets? >> i see this as a kind of jousting. the two countries are not in direct military conflict, but there's pushback going on, else on the russian side. in syria, the u.s. and russia had evolved a system of deconfliction. they would say, we have got drones going in the air over such and such a place in syria, make them aware if there were incidents ask the russians to pull back. generally, those measures worked pretty well. the last several years, certainly since the ukraine war

began, that's begun to fray. there's more tension. we have seen it the last two days to an unusual extent. the disaster is if an american drone is shot down, is forced to land, if there's a collision with a russian jet. we saw that kind of behavior over the black sea several months ago. that was genuinely dangerous. this is what countries do in times of tension. they punch and counterpunch to show they are there. they get closer to the edge of a real confrontation that would put them in an entirely different really dangerous space. >> david, speaking of russia, of course, its invasion of ukraine is front and center next week when president biden heads overseas. a week-long stay many europe with the nato summit. we heard from the ukrainians. they are pushing their bid to join nato. finland is in. sweden, not yet, but we believe soon.

once turkey acquiesces. what's your read in terms of diplomats on both sides of the atlantic where this can go or perhaps the summit next summer in washington? >> i think it's for the future. the basic rule for nato, understandably enough, is if you got a current border conflict going on with russia, you are not a candidate for membership. nato doesn't want to buy into a new member and then meadimmedia go to war. that's not the deal. in one sense, that's incentive for ukraine to come to a satisfactory negotiated settlement of the conflict. there's pressure from the baltic states, from poland to move more quickly. i think the administration has thought about this and decided, no, not yet.

is pushing back. the question that i think officials are really haunted by is, how do we give ukraine guarantees and protection for its security going into next year if it's not nato? what is the alternative way that we make ukraine strong enough that there will be pushback for russia? people are struggling with that. i haven't heard a good answer. >> david, your latest piece in the "washington post" deals with russia. it's titled, "russia hasn't stopped maneuvering for a role in internet oversight." what exactly does vladimir putin want to do? what does he want his role to be? as strange as this sounds, the country that has been meddling in u.s. and european elections is -- wants to take a leading role in writing rules of the road for safe behavior in cyberspace. they do this every few months.

i'm writing about a new instance that just came to light in my reporting where they presented a proposal to the international telecommunications unit. one of these obscure bureaucratic bodies the u.n. has that overseas this world of internet and the rules. they have introduced a proposal saying we need the u.n. to do more regulation. it's part of a russian claim that the united states and the west own the internet and it's not fair and we should have international control. the idea that the u.n. would police the internet to me is a nightmare. look at how the u.n. operates, the bureaucracy, the slow moving pace of decisions. the idea that they control the most dynamic sector of the global economy seems like a very bad idea. that's what the russians are proposing. >> david, is there a chance that they get that role? would the u.n. -- would the

world community allow that to happen? >> oddly, to me, the secretary-general has embraced part of the russian idea, arguing that we do need some sort of collective rules. the state department is pushing back. i'm told we are working hard with our partners to modify any attempt to make rules that would really slow and politicize control of the internet. the strange thing is that the russian claim is that the internet is now fragmented. there are blockages in the internet. if there's a blockage, it's the controls that russia and china impose that prevent their citizens from using the internet. it's not a conspiracy by the west. far from it. this is the sort of thing that gets battled out often in obscure forums. i tried about it this morning because i think it's important to expose it so people know what's going on, see the russians doing this, they hope

quietly in private where they have leverage and get enough pressure to stop them. >> we will keep an eye on that story. you mentioned china, david. janet yellen is criticizing the chinese government's treatment of american companies and stressing importance of improving communication between the united states and china. this as the secretary meets with senior chinese officials for informal talks on the u.s. and chinese economies. speaking with a group of business leaders in beijing, secretary yellen defended u.s. controls on technology exports saying they are necessary for national security. yellen's concerns reflect continuing tension between the two countries after arriving in beijing yesterday, secretary yellen tweeted, the two nations with seekin a healthy economic competition that benefits american workers and firms and to collaborate on global challenges. fascinating to watch the diplomacy. we saw last week blinken echoing the comment by president joe

biden that president a dictator. blinken said the president speaks for his administration, speaks for all of us. there has been this outreach. there have been visits from secretary blinken, from secretary yellen. also strong words to go with them. >> yeah, there have been. i imagine in beijing they are asking themselves, if the u.s. is playing good cop bad cop with us, where is the good cop? yellen goes to beijing and there is really pretty harshly critical of china and the way it treats u.s. companies. it's fascinating. my question for david ignatius is, are these steps -- this yellen visit, the blinken meetings, is this actually improving our relationship with

china? is this opening a channel for communication that might lead to a meeting between president biden and president xi? is it real or is it going nowhere? >> the famous response on a question about this is, it's too soon to tell. in this case, i think that we can expect there will be this process of gradual warming. xi wants to come to the united states in november for this meeting of the apex summit. i think he won't allow major disruptions. the yellen visit is really interesting. it's a test of what blinken and his visit and jake sullivan and his meeting in vienna were trying to put together. they wanted to add cooperation on issues of mutual interest to the relationship -- very con

yellen has said more clearly than anybody in the administration, decoupling of the two economies is a bad idea for both. it's bad for the global economy. she's got to figure out, given that, what are the rules? i think that's part of the sparring that you were referring to earlier in her meetings where she was talking about how difficult conditions are for u.s. businesses. the chinese want continued trade and commerce between the two countries. they need it given their economic problems. they have to figure out better rules of the road that leave u.s. companies feeling that they are not going to be harassed, they are going to be protected. generally, the answer to your question is, i think we're on the path now to somewhat greater cooperation, some reduction in tensions between the u.s. and china. >> david ignatius, washingtoning

-- walking us through the world. coming up, one of our next guests is pulling back the curtain on u.s. special operations and intelligence in a new memoir detailing his career as a green beret, cia officer and national security policymaker. that's ahead on "morning joe." ." ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ ( ♪♪ ) constant contact's advanced automation lets you send the right message at the right time, every time. ( ♪♪ ) constant contact. helping the small stand tall.

since i took office, we have seen over 60 domestic manufacturing announcements, all across the solar supply chain. one of the biggest is in dalton, georgia. you may find it hard to believe, but that's marjorie taylor greene's district. i will be there for the groundbreaking.

>> president biden in south carolina yesterday, touting some of his economic achievements while name checking republicans who voted against his infrastructure bill but whose districts will benefit from it. speaking of georgia congresswoman marjorie taylor greene, she may have been kicked out of the house freedom caucus. the caucus voted two weeks ago on her membership. an nbc news source familiar with those deliberations says the vote to oust her was overwhelming. discontent with her among the members had been growing since she backed kevin mccarthy's bid for house speaker. it was this altercation with a colorado congresswoman last month that put members over the edge. the vote to kick her out was two days later. despite this, she has not officially been removed from the freedom caucus, that's because caucus chairman scott perry could not schedule a meeting with her, despite numerous attempts before and after the vote to oust her.

nbc news reporting in an interview thursday night a house freedom caucus board member said, perry had made a number of attempts to reach greene and her staff before and after the vote to oust her. i suspect because she knew she was being dismissed from the freedom caucus and a little bit like someone refusing service from a legal standpoint, if i'm not served, then maybe it doesn't take affect. greene's team refuted that in a statement and called out the member for remaining anonymous. she wrote, i serve northwest georgia first and serve no group in washington. a lot to pick through there, jen. you talked not so long ago on the surface with marjorie taylor greene, the congresswoman there. obviously, she's her own brand. she's her own thing. she's right about that when she says she doesn't belong to a group. what is the significance of this if there's any? >> first of all, we should clock this moment that marjorie taylor greene has been kicked out of the house freedom caucus. they did say in that story, they

said that part of the problem was the altercation she had with lauren boebert was a fight over who gets to file impeachment articles against joe biden, who gets to do that first. >> right. >> note that. also, it wasn't just that. they said andy biggs from the house freedom caucus said it was her role in the debt limit fight with house freedom caucus. they thought the deal was too moderate. also her backing of speaker mccarthy early on in january when there was 15 ballots to try to find a speaker. he lumped all of that together, which sort of computes -- comes out as, she's too establishment for us. okay? that's a moment to consider. then having spent -- i spent a week in her district. i spent time with her on a few

occasions. the house freedom caucus is not marginalizing marjorie taylor greene. when she lost her committee assignments under democratic congress, she will find a way to use this moment to her advantage. as i said earlier, talking about the connection -- human connection trump has with his base, marjorie taylor greene has that with the maga base. there's no one in the house freedom caucus that raises more money for republican candidates than marjorie taylor greene. i'm certain of that. she has -- because she bled for the cause, she was kicked out of her committee assignments by democrats. that helped her form a connection with the maga base that the house freedom caucus is not going to be able to touch. she has done a pretty good job at playing this inside game with mccarthy. it's another statement of where we are with the house republican caucus that she's playing a role

as a leader within -- figuring out a way to do that within mccarthy's world, the establishment. >> the whole play of you can't fire me if i won't take a meeting with you, that feels very "seinfeld." i'm sure they did that. willie, it's beyond marjorie taylor greene who, of course, as jen says, will remain a force in the republican party. this highlights the fracture that she's not conservative enough. i want to go back to how we opened this with president biden calling out that groundbreaking. this is something the white house is trying to lean into. they did a little bit early on in his term. now this year, when there's not new legislation passed, rather touting victories they have accomplished, he is going to these districts and talking about republicans, calling out republicans who are taking credit for things, for projects in their district they didn't vote for, they opposed. they didn't cast their ballot for the infrastructure bill. it's one thing to do it in the

deep red district and congressman wilson's district, but the white house will do there in battleground districts, swing districts, for republicans who won seats in districts that biden captured in 2020. that right there -- the white house believes it could be a pressure point and could potentially help them trying in their efforts to get back the house in 2020. they only need a handful of the seats. we will be joined by a tony award winning actor who is portraying dwight eisenhower in a new one-man show. "morning joe" is back in a moment. moment my active psoriatic arthritis can make me feel like i'm losing my rhythm. with skyrizi to treat my skin

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new polling this morning shows most americans think donald trump's federal trial should take place well before the 2024 general election. the latest survey from politico and ipsos, 62% of americans say trump should be tried before next year's contest. a slight majority says it should be held before the republican primaries next year. there were a number of surprises in this poll. what also stood out to you? >> the right to a speedy trial is not just a right to the defendant.

it belongs to the public as well. the most surprising figures to me, though, were on what impact the pending charges have on people's preferences for trump. there's been a pretty robust narrative from trump and his allies saying the indictments are helping him. certainly we've seen his standing improve over time with gop primary voters. the numbers on how do these charges affect your votes seem to suggest among gop primary voters that it might be a wash,about half say it won't have an affect, about a quarter says it improves their likelihood of supporting him, and a comparable number say it decreases their likelihood of supporting trump.

>> what about other voters, though? this is typical for donald trump when he seems to be under attack that cements republicans more to him. does it detach independents or other voters who might question, say, a federal conviction on felony charges? >> it does. if there were a conviction, that would also even further deplete his support. a lot of the narrative in this area, what is interesting is how the public across the whole

entire voter base thinks about him. we learned from 2020 that he cannot win a national election with only republicans. he needs some significant proportion of independents to pull over. these numbers suggest that, at least to me, that how they influence independents, the pending charges, could turn an election against him. >> this may be the first of many cases he's facing. fascinating numbers. thank you very much. coming up, breaking news on the economy. the june jobs report is out. dom chu is standing by with the new numbers from the labor department. e new numbers from the labor department

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♪♪ a live picture of san francisco as the sun begins to come up at 6:00 in the morning out west, 9:00 here on the east coast. welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." i'm willie geist. jonathan lemire is here and susan page is with us for the hour. let's get to the june jobs report, released just moments ago, showing the u.s. economy added 209,000 jobs last month with the unemployment rate falling slightly to 3.6%. economists had expected an increase of 240,000 jobs. for more, let's bring in cnbc's dom chu to dig into these numbers. slightly below expectations,

unemployment holds steady. what does it all mean? >> it's more confusion. the headline jobs number you mentioned, still positive, but below expectations. is it nearly as positive as what we got earlier this week when adp said they saw half a million jobs created last month. so this 209,000 jobs below the 240,000 consensus forecast, less than the 330,000 jobs for may and was the lowest job gains total since december of 2020. also factor in april or may's job gains were revised lower by a total of 110,000 jobs in total between may and april. the unemployment rate, 3.6%, is a tick lower from 3.7%. average hourly earnings actually

gained slightly more than expected, .04% between may to june, bringing the year over year annual gain for wages to a slightly hotter than expected 4.4%. labor force participation unchanged at 62%. the so-called unemployment rate which looks at people out of work as well as those working multiple part-time jobs out of necessary, that actually rose to 6.9% from 6.7. the job gains were mostly in the government side of things, also health care and social assistance, construction as well. leisure and hospitality, which has been a big driver of gains for the last several months and years, moderated at a gain of just 21,000 last month. you saw job losses in retail and

transportation. both good and bad, hot and cold numbers, the markets are still pricing it at near certainty, almost 90% chance that the federal reserve will hike rates by 25 basis points or .25% at its rate meeting later this month. also, treasury secretary janet yellen is wrapping up her first full day in china, met with business leaders in the country, also the chinese premier. in the remarks, the secretary defended american actions meant to protect our national security, but also said there may be disagreements between the two countries, but both sides should continue dialogues. she also spoke about concerns she and the administration have over export controls being proposed by china specifically for rare minerals used in things like computer chip production. also, actions targeting u.s.

campaigns like chip maker micron, some of whose products have been banned for sale in china because of their security concerns. overall economic data and headlines driving the market. >> busy day, dom. just to go back to the fed, you make the point that this down does make the case for the fed to raise rates. i think that was kind of baked into the july meeting, but they took pains last month when they said this is just a pause and we plan to resume. >> the fed still has to stay vigilant about this rate hiking campaign because inflation remains sticky. earlier this week on the heels of that private sector employment data, which showed a huge gain, 479,000 jobs created

in the private sector. on the heels of that, dallas federal reserve president made public comments saying she still feels as though rate hikes still have to be on the table. the wage numbers still continue to show gains, moderating, but they're still there. if the jobs market continues to be as strong as it is, the fed may elect to continue that rate hike campaign, because they have the ability to do so. remember, everybody who's looking for a so-called soft landing for the economy needs to have the jobs market remain somewhat resilient and inflation to come down. if that is the case, then the fed still has some work to do. the jobs market still remains robust in this market. >> the white house will say we are still adding more than 200,000 jobs a month. it came a little under the wall street expectation.

and the unemployment rate remains at historic lows at 3.6%. >> so a mix of data, as we were just hearing. i wonder what it adds up to when you look at the prospects for recession. does that mean the economy will be able to do what many have doubted it could do, which is go in a good direction and avoid recession? >> up until now, a recession has been avoided, right? we've been hearing many ceos and economists talking about the prediction of a recession, whether it's soft or hard, for the better part of the last year plus at this point. we know that the u.s. economy has not slipped into a technical recession, as defined by the national bureau of business economics. but what we do have are inflationary feelings that have

generated what feels like a recession for many parts of the american economy, especially those on the lower to middle income spectrums. inflation is abating more quickly on certain fronts, especially when it comes to food and fuel. just this morning costco, one of the biggest warehouse retailers out there, said their same store sales growth at established store locations fell in large part because of falling fuel prices. when you add up the balance of all the economic data, this is still a part of the economy, housing, real estate, that sort of thing that remains stubbornly high. if they are able to generate a softer landing for the economy, it will have to be in a way that cools those hot parts of the market down without having to trigger job losses en mass. that's going to be the tricky part for the fed. they've got a few more meetings

this year in terms of rate hikes to get that done. for right now, a quarter of a percent is baked into the market for this month's meeting. come this fall, you might see a little bit more evidence of those rate hike campaigns lasting but not to the degree we were seeing for july. >> using words like strange and tricky to describe the economy, that's what americans feel. we have seen poll after poll that despite for the most part economic numbers that looked pretty positive, a lot of americans don't actually feel like the economy is doing well. a lot of them do have recession worries. a lot of them feel like the postpandemic has recovered for some, but not for me. that's why the white house is leaning in on bidenomics.

>> the things people buy every day still are too expensive and they feel that every single dade. dom chu, great breakdown of the numbers. thank you so much. president biden was on the campaign trail yesterday in south carolina touting his administration's economic message. let's bring in white house correspondent for politico and coauthor of the playbook eugene daniels. he is also a "morning joe" senior contributor. this trip had the feel of a message he wants to use on the trail as he runs for reelection, which is that my economy is working for you. >> reporter: that's exactly right. south carolina is a state that revived his political career more than three years ago. the president is out there touting bidenomics, talking about how in their estimate the

economic policies this white house has put forward brought 14,000 jobs to south carolina. what you heard from him was a general election pitch, talking about how his policies aren't just for democrats but also for red states, states like south carolina that will most likely go to the republican in 2024 no matter what ends up happening overall in the general election. he also needled some of the republicans in red states who won who have made fun of bidenomics, but then touts those exact same benefits to those states. you also saw him talk about and give a shout out to lindsey graham, who voted for the infrastructure act. probably not great for lindsey graham in south carolina, who just got booed at a trump rally

there. when you kind of coin something and call it bidenomics, now you own it. so we're seeing these jobs numbers confusing the economic picture. that means you have to own that no matter how good or bad it goes. right now they feel like they have a story to tell. we haven't heard from the white house and probably won't until around 9:30 when they speak on these numbers. what they've been looking for is numbers that are not too hot and not too cold. you'll probably also hear them tout the construction job increases that leans into the idea that he's bringing manufacturing jobs back and also unemployment dropping to 3.6%, something this white house has talked about a lot over the last year. >> this week is all about democratic politics for the president. next week he's heading to

europe. talk to us a little bit about how this white house loves to use moments like this where they can project him as simply doing the job of president, governing, being a statesman and using that implicit contrast to the messy republican primary battle at home that seems really uncertain what to do about supporting ukraine while president biden has been with kyiv from the beginning. >> reporter: that's at the center of his campaign, right. i am the person in the white house, give me four more years. things will feel calm. before he got into the oval office, candidate biden was talking about bringing surety back to the financial space, bring the allies back, have them trust the word of the united states and be able to build coalitions. you've seen him do that with ukraine. every time they go overseas,

they use that as an opportunity to say this is a president who you may think of him one way on the domestic, but on the foreign policy he is doing pr for the american people in these other countries. he's going to nato as a representative. when he goes on these foreign policy trips, a person who spent decades dealing in different levels of foreign policy in this country, they go pretty well for him. you hear from the allies high marks from the president on these trips. you'll continue to hear that. it comes at a time where the republican party has yet to figure out how they feel about ukraine. this nato trip is going to be about ukraine and shoring up nato as that war by russia continues to wage in ukraine. this president, the nordic states will be there.

there will be questions about whether sweden will be allowed to come into nato. this is a white house that wants the american people to see the president being the president. it's as simple as that. you hear some frustration sometimes from democrat who is want them to be out on the road. there's a lot more time in this process as republicans figure it out. no matter who the republican is that president biden will face at some point, ukraine and foreign policy is going to be a huge part of those debates and conversations. they feel like this president has more foundation to stand on than anyone he might go up against. >> the head of nato today said he expects to put ukraine on a path toward membership in nato. before we let you go, that bag

of cocaine found in the building behind you a few days ago, an investigation by the secret service. nbc has new reporting about where the bag was found contrary to where it has been reported to have been found, but the investigation continues and we may not have an answer who it belongs to. >> reporter: the location of this is really important, because it tells us as reporters and as people who know this white house, who might have had access. you heard the white house continuing to talk about how the area in which it was found was in an area that has a lot of foot traffic. this idea that the secret service handling this has said we're not talking about this. as you look at the kind of the basement of the west wing, we

have been told by secret service folks for days that we may never know who is the person who left this behind, dropped it, it fell out their bag, threw it away, whatever the case may be. you talk to folks who used to work in the white house. they find that a little bit hard to believe. there are a lot of cameras in this white house. this is not a white house that wants to have any conversation about cocaine, where it was for obvious reasons. it's not a good look for any white house, but especially this one with all the conspiracy issues. >> lots of cameras in that building. hard to believe they can't track down who it belongs to. special counsel jack smith and his team reportedly continue to zero in on a contentious oval office meeting that occurred in the final days of donald trump's

administration. multiple sources tell cnn investigators have asked several witnesses who appeared before the grand jury in the investigation into the january 6th attack on the capitol and the efforts by donald trump and his allies to overturn the 2020 election. some of those witnesses were asked about the meeting months ago, while others, including rudy giuliani, reportedly were questioned about it only recently. sources tell cnn prosecutors specifically have inquired about three outside trump advisors who participated in the meeting. trump lawyer sidney powell, michael flynn and patrick burn, lawyers for giuliani, powell and burn declined to comment. here is what we learned about that explosive meeting at the white house that took place on december 18th, 2020. in video testimony played during the january 6th hearings last summer, we heard how trump's

outside advisors clashed with officials over conspiracies of election fraud and outlandish efforts to keep trump in power. efforts to keep trump in power

>> the democrats were working with whoever else at one point, general flynn took out a diagram that supposedly showed all over the world and who was communicating with whom via the machine and some comment about it being hooked up to the internet. >> it's imperative with election fraud in foreign countries, is that accurate? >> for sure. >> was the meeting tense? >> oh yeah. it was not a casual meeting.

[indiscernible] >> at times there were people shouting at each other, throwing insults at each other. it wasn't just sort of people sitting on the couch like chitchatting. e chitchatting

>> they both challenged what she was saying. she says, well, the judges are corrupt. every one? every single case in the country you guys lost, every one of them is corrupt, even the ones we appointed? i'm being nice, but i was much more harsh to her. >> all that from the january 6th committee interviews that we saw last summer. it remains staggering a year later to hear it in words, the people who got so close to the president of the united states, sidney powell, rudy giuliani and this overstock ceo who took a break from selling affordable area rugs to push conspiracy theories about the 2020 election. you had the mr. pillow guy

suggesting martial law be implemented. the fact that these characters got that close to the president and had that much influence on what was happening in the country remains shameful today. >> really takes you back, doesn't it, seeing that footage again? i was not happy to see these people from the white house lawyer. that cast of characters had unfettered, regular access to the oval office after the election after so much of trump's staff had departed or been sidelined in some way. it it is an open secret around washington that it was the work of that january 6th committee that pushed doj to double up their efforts in the january 6th investigation, which now there is some thought that before the summer is out, sometime in the fall, there could be charges coming from that too, the

special counsel not just looking at classified documents, but perhaps election interference january 6th as well. what would that moment be like, were it to occur? >> kudos to the january 6th committee for giving us such a clear window into that meeting. we already know a lot about that meeting. it's a reminder that jack smith's work is not done, even though he's dieted the president on charges relating to alleged misuse of sensitive government documents. it certainly shows him looking at this question of former president trump's role in the january 6th attack and in other efforts to overturn the results of that presidential election. it's easy to get caught in superlatives when you talk about the things that happened relating to former president trump. one of them is, what if we do see indictments brought against him by a federal prosecutor for trying to overturn the election

he lost? it is simply once again territory we have never seen in the history of this country. >> this is the new investigation, as he'd already been indicted for the mar-a-lago documents. jack smith also focused on this. and also the news this morning that he's apparently focused on that meeting we just described. coming up, nearly three weeks after the titan submersible imploded near the wreckage of the titanic, the company that operated the vessel has announced it will cease all exploration and commercial operations. we'll have an update on the investigation into what went wrong there. investigation into what went wrong there. first, there's an idea and you do something about it for the first time with godaddy. then before you know it, (it is a life changer...) you make your first sale. small business first. never stopped coming. (we did it!) and you have a partner that always puts you first way. (no way!) start today at godaddy.com. new projects means new project managers. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job, you immediately get

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oceangate expeditions, the company that operated the titan submersible that imploded last month, is suspending commercial operations. anne thompson has details.

>> reporter: nearly three weeks after the titan submersible began its ill-fated dive to the titanic shipwreck, this morning the company that operated the vessel says it has suspended all commercial operations. beyond titanic, oceangate had plans to take paying customers to explore the bahamas and portugal next year. last month's dive, which led to the deaths of five people, including the company's ceo stockton rush may be its last. possible warning signs may have been ignored. >> i've broken some rules to make this. >> reporter: in a bbc documentary filmed last year, rush did not appear concerned when he was told about a noise heard on a past dive. >> we got to the surface, heard a really loud bang. almost every deep-diving sub

makes a noise at some point. >> reporter: debris found on the sea floor is being examined, including a data recorder. they are also analyzing what they believe are human remains recovered in the wreckage, all to determine what may have caused the catastrophe. experts have been critical of the materials used in titan's construction, in particular, two titanium end caps joined by a carbon fiber hull. video posted in 2017, shows the oceangate team bonding them together with glue. meanwhile, members of the deep sea exploration community, including film director james cameron, has speculated even before titan's crew lost communication that rush may have attempted to abort the dive and

resurface. >> i believe now that they had some warning, that they heard some acoustic signature of the hull beginning to delaminate. >> the investigation continue into that tragedy. still ahead on "morning joe," our next guest was in charge of the secret war the united states waged against the soviets in afghanistan back in 1984. now, he is telling the stories behind that experience and many more. the former operations officer and intelligence official joins us next. s officer and intelligence official joins us next.

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fundamental freedoms are under attack in our country today and there is a national agenda at play by these extremist so-called leaders. it will be a national ban on abortion. it is the tradition of our country to fight for freedom, to fight for rights... to fight for the ability of all people to be who they are and make decisions about their own lives and their bodies. and we will fight for the ideals of our country. training to parachute behind enemy lines with a backpack nuclear weapon and monitoring the mission to kill osama bin laden from inside cia headquarters, just two accounts from michael vickers and his

remarkable career as a green beret, cia operations officer and undersecretary of intelligence all from the new book "by all means available." michael joins us now. his service spanned both the administrations of george w. bush and barack obama. thanks for being with us this morning. what an extraordinary book this is, full of stories, but also with perspective on the world today. i have to start with a question about parachuting in with a nuclear backpack. tell me about that. >> well, fortunately, i never had to do it, but during the cold war we trained a handful of green beret special forces soldiers and navy seals in the event of a general war with the soviet union to parachute behind soviet lines and try to halt their advance with these small nuclear weapons. there were lots of nuclear weapons then. fortunately we don't have them anymore, you know, battlefield

weapons of all sorts. >> you write a lot in the book about this effort in afghanistan. you call it a great war of liberation in the '80s. what more can you say now all these years later about your role in this effectively covert, proxy war? >> sure. my formal title was afghanistan covert action program officer. i was essentially the chief strategist at a time when we had a major escalation. president reagan signed a directive that changed our objective at the beginning of his second term to defeat the soviets rather than make their occupation as costly as possible. it fell to me for a couple years to put a strategy in place that would do that. >> of course, afghanistan is from where osama bin laden launched the september 11th

attacks. tell us about bin laden and your role in eventually tracking him down. >> sure. so one of the major lessons we learned in counter terrorism policy after 9/11 was never to give sanctuary to these groups that aim to bring destruction upon the united states. we made that mistake in afghanistan before 911 and we didn't after 911. fortunately we haven't had any more attacks anywhere near that scale. after bin laden escaped from tora bora in 2001, it took us nine years to find him again from his courier in pakistan and several months to design options or raids.

president obama ultimately decided on the seal raid and i was happy to be a part of that. >> let's get your assessment on what's happening there now and the tumult of 2021 when the u.s. withdrew from being there for nearly two decades, and we have seen the taliban roll back rights for women and girls and all citizens. was that unavoidable? what lessons should we be learning now? >> i think the situation is terrible. it's very tragic. as we discussed earlier, the afghans played a significant role in helping us win the cold war and then in kicking al qaeda out of afghanistan after the 2001 attacks. i think it was a strategic error to completely withdraw. i think we should have kept a small presence there. afghanistan is strategically located between china, russia

and iran. we certainly don't want it to become jihadist central anymore. >> thank you for your service to the country under what i know were very dangerous conditions. i'd like to ask you about your service to a series of presidents. i wonder when you read about what former president trump has allegedly done with classified documents, his handling of intelligence findings, does this cause you any concern? what do you make of this? is this a serious matter? >> i don't know the details of the contents of the documents, of course, but it certainly strikes me as a very serious matter. when you're entrusted with the nation's secrets, you're supposed to keep them secret. whether you're a president or someone working in the bureaucracy, that's an oath we take seriously.

we sign nondisclosure agreements. we're obligated to protect that for the rest of our lives. >> you were there at some of the pivot points of the century. the new book is titled "by all means available." michael vickers, thank you so much for being here today. we appreciate it, sir. >> thank you, willie. it's my pleasure. coming up next here, our next guest is taking on the role of former president dwight eisenhower in a new play. we'll take a look at the new production. plus, a texas teen reported missing eight years ago recently found alive and is said to have been living with his mother the whole time. details surrounding a strange story straight ahead on "morning joe." story straight ahead on "morning joe.

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there are new questions this morning about the alleged disappearance of a texas man who was found alive eight years after he was reported missing as a teenager. investigators now say he was home with his mother nearly the entire time. how did this happen? nbc news correspondent priscilla thompson has details. >> reporter: this morning, family members of the man believed to be missing for eight years speaking out after discovering he was apparently living at home all along. >> nobody deserves that. >> reporter: just days after a good samaritan reportedly found 25-year-old rudy farias unresponsive outside a local church, police in houston making a shocking revelation. >> investigators followed up on tips, leads and collected evidence proving rudy was not missing during the eight-year period. >> reporter: according to authorities, he never vanished and was living with his mother janie santana the entire time.

>> it was discovered rudy returned home the following day on march 8, 2015. >> reporter: santana allegedly telling people that saw him that he was a nephew. >> the mother continued to deceive police that rudy was still missing. >> reporter: santana even releasing a statement after her son was found, thanks the media and the public for their support, writing my son rudy is receiving the care he needs to overcome his trauma. neighbors and family members in disbelief. >> that's just not right. >> reporter: a woman identifying herself as his aunt saying he's traumatized and he doesn't want to see his mom, also speaking to our houston affiliate kprc. >> i fear for rudy's life. >> reporter: investigators say he and his mom had several encounters with police over the years, but gave fake names and birthdays, which is why he remained a missing person case. there are no clues why they would have lied all these years,

but police do not believe this was a kidnapping case and no charges have been filed against the mother or the son. >> rudy says he is with his mother by choice. >> reporter: a solved missing persons case that now has more questions than answered. >> certainly a lot more questions. a new off broadway play is honoring america's 34th president with a script based on president dwight eisenhower's actual words. "eisenhower, this piece of ground" is a look at the legacy of one of america's most important leaders. tony award winner john rubenstein stars. tell us about this play and how you approach this iconic figure. >> it all takes place during one

day about a year and a half after his second term as president. he's retired. he's in gettysburg on the farm where he and mamie retired. he reads an article in the "new york times" magazine that ranks the president. 75 historians put together by arthur shlesinger have ranked all of the presidents so far up to that point. he comes down at a very low number and he is incensed, hurt and angry. he's in the middle of recording on a tape recorder with his editor a new book about his presidency. he's already written one about his experiences in the war. that is the device during which during the play he unfolds a big story about his entire life up to that point. it's very inspiring stuff.

>> eisenhower in the moment was an american hero for his leadership in the war. historians since then have got a much more favorable view of his presidency as well. tell us how you prepared for this role. were you pouring over eisenhower footage? >> mostly i did it with his voice. i listened to a lot of tapes of him talking. it was a sort of vernacular, a sort of sound and approach to speaking that i was familiar with from people that i've known in my life very well. i just started from the sound of his voice. then the playwright wrote the play in such a way that it would be perfect for eisenhower to say. it wasn't written in somebody

else's voice. so the moment i started saying the words of the play, i felt that i was eisenhower and i was in it, and i feel that every night. >> eisenhower's reputation with historians has improved since that early ranking shortly shortly after his presidency, having kind of immersed yourself in dwight eisenhower,s what do you think americans don't understand? what will they understand through your performance that perhaps they didn't realize before about the man? >> well, i think eisenhower, even somebody like me who lived through his presidency and even met him once at the white house, we all thought of him as just a good old guy. he was bald and he played a lot of golf, and he was sort of grandpa, and that was about it. we knew he was a great hero in world war ii, but his presidency, we weren't that aware of him. i as a young boy and early

teenagers knew very much about the thing in little rock with governor fabus and the arkansas national bird and the kids trying to go to school who were prevented from doing so by the crazy racist mob. but basically that was it. and in this play you learn about how deft of a politician he really was, how he was able to get things done and accomplished, and his heart, no matter how -- he was arguably one of the most powerful men in the world. he ran the european theater during the war. he was a first commander of nato. he was a president of columbia university, and then he was president of the united states for eight years. great power. but his focus all through all of that was caring about the people he was responsible for, and that's what we don't hear that

often anymore from our politicians, do we? >> no, we don't, not enough. john, i'm curious for you as an actor who's done it all on broadway, won tony awards, drama desk award, been directed by bob fossy, but never done this, a one-man play. what was that experience like for you to stand alone on the stage? what's it been like? >> it's both exhilarating because i love the material, and i feel the audience being informed, because we all -- me included, learned a lot about eisenhower during this, but they get inspired to see, wait a minute, it's possible for a politician to actually be concerned, to feel responsible for the people he represents. so there's a great feeling of hope and inspiration for the future that happens at the end of the play. but for me personally, it's a little lonely, you know, doing a play, it's usually you meet the

people in the cast. you all get together, you have a great time. you rehearse, and then you perform for the people. it's teamwork and community, and now it's just me walking out there by myself, so yeah, it's sort of a challenge that way. >> well, by all accounts and by the reviews, you certainly are pulling it off. "eisenhower: this piece of ground" is playing at the theater at st. clements. it runs through july 30th. john rubenstein, a pleasure to have you on this morning, thanks for being with us. >> it was a pleasure to be here. thank you. >> and we'll be right back with "morning joe."

as we close this morning, susan page, we want to note 100 days since wall street journal reporter evan gershkovich was detained in russia on charges of espionage, march 29, obviously those are charges he denies, the journal denies, the state

department denies, but he is still held now for 100 days. >> we all remember evan on this day and every day. journalism is not a crime. and i know i speak for all of us on this panel on calling on russia for his safe release. >> and in fact, right here willie and susan, the front page of the wall street journal is indeed noting 100 days, i stand with evan. i know i certainly stand with evan. everyone at this network and this show stands with evan, and the white house is doing their best to get him back. there is some talk maybe a little progress this week, but nothing done yet. he certainly should return home as soon as humanly possible. >> we do stand with evan. we stand with the journal on this, and we do note that there's some reports of some early progress to get him home. let's hope that's true. that does it for us this morning, thanks for watching this week. we'll be right back with you on monday morning. ana cabrera picks up the coverage in 90 seconds. the coverage in 90 seconds i'm losing my rhythm. with skyrizi to treat my skin and joints, i'm getting into my groove.

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