her home and she had to watch as her daughters could not even finish their own winter school education. stories like this just too important i think not to tell. >> and that does it for us. we're back monday at 6 am eastern time, we'll see you then, have a great rest of your weekend. >> this is the katie phang show, live from miami, florida. we've got lots of news to cover and lots of questions to answer, so let's get started. cluster bomb controversy. as president biden prepares to head to the nato summit, he oks a major move that could help change the course of the war in ukraine. what we know about the pentagon's plan to provide the weapons that many human rights groups are blasting. top not so secret. you concerns that twice impeached, twice indicted, won her ex presidential reporter some of the nation's most sensitive secrets while in office. we're going in-depth on what

this means for special counsel jack smith's multiple investigations, and trump's third presidential bid. frightening future, the second year of a post-roe america looks worse than the first. we're going inside the all out episodes to keep the southeast swath of the country from turning into an abortion desert. all of this and more is coming up. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> and a good saturday morning to you i'm katie phang. we begin with a major show of support from the white house on what could become a critical turning point in the war in ukraine. the biden administration defending their controversial decision to supply cluster munitions to ukraine to help that country gain grounds against vladimir putin is now 500-day war on ukraine. cluster munitions, also known as cluster bombs, are banned in 120 countries due to the high risk of killing civilians.

despite blowback from his own party and human rights groups president biden says he spoken to allies about the decision. it comes as he prepares to travel across europe tomorrow, starting with a nato summit analysts away nia to talk to leaders about further support for ukraine and a future of nato's alliance. nbc news white house correspondent monica alba joins us live right now with the latest. monika, good morning. how is president biden responding, beau, to the cluster bombs backlash? >> katie, he is defending this decision, saying he waited very carefully and it was not an easy choice for him. for months, they have been discussing whether this would be appropriate and we've seen this some time and time again specifically, with the war and ukraine and things that president zelenskyy has asked for. the u.s. has said initially they weren't sure they were going to provide this kind of weaponry and then ultimately, when they do make that kind of assessment, they have gone forward and supply the

ukrainians, in the presidents own words, because he says they are running out of ammunition. so, he did plainly defend this, saying even though he knows dozens and dozens of countries did not choose to use these kinds of cluster bombs, which was a treaty, by the way, the united states did not sign, he still felt it was appropriate. he says the ukrainians have assured him that these 10,000 or so cluster bombs that will be sent to ukraine in the coming days to have what's known as a low dug rate. that means that if they don't work as intended, the likelihood of them exploding later and then being a huge harm to civilians, the president, and the pentagon have said is quite low. still, he is facing some growing opposition on capitol hill, not just from republicans, but democrats as well, who have expressed some concern about using these. again, about the risk this could pose to people in the future. because as you see in this video, when it detonates, it really creates these smaller

bomb lets that can get embedded in the ground, and, then in the future, in years to come, they can later explode and really pose a lot of harm. again, in the years ahead. so, the president is still defending this. this does come at a critical time for the war in ukraine and this discussion among leaders that nato, when the president will be meeting with them in vilnius lithuania, in the coming days. and where he is expected, again, to pledge his total and complete support for ukraine in this war, katie. >> you know, monica, against the backdrop of the reality that the war in ukraine is hitting that 500 day mark, does that war and that moving up in the priority list in terms of what we expect from the nato summit? >> i think it will be on the top of the agenda for many of these conversations. and of course, it's critical to remember also in the context of the war and this alliance, there are member nations who have wanted to apply and be included in that. it's also why the president has

been traveling to helsinki, finland, to celebrate the fact that finland test joins nato. then, you have tweeted, which is trying to join nato but that has not been ratified. it's unclear whether that will happen this week or whether there will be any progress, but in terms of ukraine and president zelenskyy, who has wanted to become a part of nato, the national security adviser yesterday, jake sullivan, says he does not expect that to happen, at least in the short term. ukraine can continue to go through the lengthy process you usually have to take place in order for a country to be considered, but you can expect these nato member countries to all come together at the summit continue to talk about the war in ukraine and their support, but also, some potential off-ramps or and games to how this could all be finalized, and that's why the u.s. is hoping these cluster bombs could help ukraine continue to defend itself in this very brutal war that, as you point out, has now been going on for 500 days, katie. >> monika alba, we thank you for joining us live from the white house this morning.

and some good news from the biden administration. the u.s. economy added just 209,000 jobs in the month of june, when the unemployment rate now sitting at 3.6%. according to the bureau of labor statistics, monthly jobs report. as the country's red hot labor market is finally showing some signs of cooling down, nbc news is brian chung is going to break down the latest in the numbers. going to break do>> well, it was a big wn economic data on friday morning. we got the jobs data from the government, which showed the job market is continuing to track along, the growing albeit at a slower pace. let's unpack the numbers. 209,000 jobs. that's how many were added in the month of june. again, according to the government, it's a bit of a slower pace than the 306,000 that we saw in the month of may. this number was also below what wall street economists had expected. they were projecting somewhere between 230 240,000 jobs in the month. now, despite all that, the unemployment rate actually ticked down to 3.6%. and by the way, that is essentially near the 3.5%,

which or, 3.4%, which is at over 50 or low. so, to see that broad and unemployment remains low remains positive, though i think, that some demographics like the black unemployment rate did rise. that just being up 6%. something we're going to have to watch in the months to come. so, okay, the question is, where did we see job gains or job contractions in the month? we saw in these categories. leisure and hospitality, think bars and restaurants, and 21,000 in the month. then professional and business services also added 21,000 jobs. that's about, you know, white color, maybe cubicle types of jobs. but interestingly, we saw a retail trade jobs at the mall, contracting by about 11,000 in the month. so okay. what does all this in terms of the jobs report mean for the broad picture from the federal reserve, which has been deliberately trying to slow this economy through higher interest rates? for them, the story is trying to lower inflation, and the jobs board gives us some insight into inflation in the form of average hourly earnings. how much more to people get

paid more between this year and last year? the number that we got, 4.4%. that's home how much higher wages are in june of this year compared to june of last year. that's a faster clip than the 4.3% we saw in the prior month, and for the federal reserve, which has been trying to get this number down so that they can make sure that employers are not passing on higher wage costs to the consumer, they might be looking at this and saying well, we might want to do one more interest rate increase, which is why markets and pricing it's another 2.5 percentage point interest rate increase in their next meeting at the end of the month. we'll have to see if the fed follows through on that. again, broad story, jobs market continuing to track along, just a little bit of a slower pace this time around. back to you. >> and our thanks to brian chung for that report. and still to come, damage control. how florida's first lady, casey desantis, is desperately trying to save her husband's sinking presidential campaign with women voters. and later, not guilty.

trump's personal valet says he's not guilty in the mar-a-lago documents case. why did it take him so long to finally get an attorney? we've got much more on the katie phang show ahead, so keep it right here on msnbc. e on msnbc this week is your chance to try any subway footlong for free. like the subway series menu. just buy any footlong in the app, and get one free. everyone loves free stuff chuck. can we get peyton a footlong? get it before it's gone. on the subway app. your best defense against erosion and cavities is strong enamel- nothing beats it. new pronamel active shield actively shields the enamel to defend against erosion and cavities. i think that this product is a gamechanger for my patients- it really works.

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2024 presidential nomination is back on the campaign trail in the value of this weekend, and once again, whipping his rabbit maga base into a frenzy. but these campaign rallies stay just maybe the only stages for the twice impeached, twice indicted, one term ex president for the next few weeks. it's still up in the air if trump will go head to head with his opponent close in the polls, florida governor ron desantis, at the first 2024 are and the presidential primary debates admiral milwaukee on the date of august 23rd. now, trump may not even need to debate the growing field of republican presidential hopefuls, his lead impulses growing, while desantis's numbers are plummeting.

inexplicably, these latest poll numbers are after trump's second criminal indictment, but as we all know, in market world, you've got to throw out all logic. >> every time i get a subpoena, my pulse go up, i get more and more subpoenas. [laughter] report to a grand jury! it's all [bleep] too. it's all stuff -- [applause] >> joining me now, our saturday morning power political panel, my good friends here on said, former -- republican carlos curbelo, and nbc news and political analyst, and joining me remotely -- fernando moment, msnbc political -- and democratic pollster. it's best for nantucket this want to give any more -- and share it with carlos. to set what it is? >> he's not here to push me around today. i appreciate that. >> carlos, i want to start with you. completely disregarding the 14th amendment, you've got trump, you've got desantis, and now, you have it. i want to get his name right because you don't want to be rude, vet ramah swami, now saying, two --

with birthright citizenship! we are just not going to let that happen anymore. but here's the hypocrisy. vivek ramos wants parents were immigrants. he said beneficiary of it. so, i want to ask it citizenship for me but not for the anymore? >> yeah, so totally incoherent and unconstitutional proposal and this dates back to 2018. by the way there's all these political lessons that republicans refuse to learn ahead of the 2018 election, donald trump thought it would be a good idea to put this out there, to get his base riled up. what happened? republicans got swamped in the house, and they lost around 40 seats to democrats that year, in part because in suburban areas and swing districts and swing states, this kind of policy, this kind of rhetoric where all of a sudden, if someone's born in the united states, we're not going to guarantee citizenship, that just doesn't resonate. it might work for a republican primary, and i get you some attention, but in the long run, it's going to cost you. >> you know, earlier this week,

casey desantis doing a flying solo run, trying to push and promote the moms for desantis and parents rights, but is this move actually going to be able to help run desantis, whose numbers are really bad, even with women voters? >> katie, i don't think so. you asked me earlier where i was. i'm actually ron desantis's hometown of jacksonville. truth be told, katie, you wouldn't know it looking and driving around, this is trump country. i don't see any signs of the desantis presidential campaign in what you think would be his most ardent area of support. everywhere, however, you see trump 2024 science, trump 2024 flags. i think it's a microcosm of what the polls have not made certain. katie, you go back figure it out, donald trump had a 34 point -- trump had a 34 point lead over desantis. one year later, you talk about, it all of the indictments losing a sexual assault suit, trump is still at a 32 point lead.

historically looking at these numbers, it tells me as a researcher, going back 50 years in primaries, i think this may be over, and casey desantis and ron desantis may be the first ones to understand that reality, because the numbers aren't changing. >> you know, carlos, desantis has an ad out right now. he's getting slammed, even within his own party. it calls out donald trump for his part for the lgbtq+ community. the santa saying, i'm going to double down. i'm going to say it's fair game to be able to go after donald trump, but consider the following. is desantis's hate and extremism actually too toxic, even for a general? >> well, katie, look. running to the right of donald trump hasn't worked. running beneath donald trump, in this case, by bashing trump for some comments he's made favorable to the lgbt community, saying they should be treated a widely, pretty basic stuff, that's not going to work

either. you can't out trump donald trump. if iran desantis wants to have a shot, and look, this isn't over. i don't agree with fernand, it's not early, but it's also, or not voting tomorrow. if ron desantis and others want to have a chance at the feeding donald trump, they have to stop imitating him. they actually have to distinguish themselves from him. they have to be honest with voters and say, look at what the maga movement has done to the republican party. they have lost three general elections in a row. look at what it's done to the country, right? a lot of damage. that's the message that could, could, resume at some point. but imitating donald trump, following him, trying to go beneath donald trump, to the right of donald trump? that's just not going to work. the base isn't going to believe that. numbers are there to prove it. >> you know, fernand, let's talk about some of the people that are trying to make some headwinds in that gop primary. let's talk about chris christie, because you've got anthony scaramucci, you've got stephen

a smith from espn actually telling people and encouraging people, donate, so you can get chris christie on that primary debate stage. do you think chris christie knows and has acknowledged that perhaps, he is being offered about a sacrificial lamb, if anything, to be able to take out donald trump a little bit at the knees? >> i don't think there's any question of that. chris christie is the gop candidate slugger terminator. he did it to marco rubio, but this idea he's going to be able to take down donald trump in a party which is a personality cult around donald trump, i think it's just wishful for almanacs. not going to happen. chris christie has zero chance of being but nominee, and as the congressman said earlier, it's not even a question of how can you distinguish yourself by not imitating and criticizing the maga movement? all of these republicans come out of the maga movement. ron desantis, the quote unquote alternative to trump, is a trump created clone out of the maga movement. so, i just don't see, when you

look at these numbers, and with donald trump's 100% recognition rating, his favorite ability right, exult rock-solid amongst primary voters. that's why, katy, we don't see these numbers changing, and trump's lead in no way diminishing, despite multiple indictments. , what is it going to take five indictments? sick and that is? seven indictments? the eight indictment is going to come down? i don't see it happening. >> carlos, representative marjorie taylor greene gets booted out of the freedom caucus. i want to read this quote to you. freedom caucus board member representative andy harris as quote, i think the way she referred to a fellow member was probably not the way we expect our members to refer to other fellows, especially female members. just let that sink in for a second. they're calling out mtg for saying a bad word to lauren boebert, but they're not going to call out donald trump, a convicted sexual abuse are,

batterer? they're not going to call him out, but listen, i'm not defending her, let me be explicitly clear. but they are going to kick her out of the freedom caucus, but they're not going to call donald trump out on the carpet for what he's done? >> katie, i think this episode demonstrates the incoherence and the chaos that donald trump has created in the republican party. this is a party that, in many ways, doesn't know what it stands for, doesn't know what basic standards of decency are and when they should be applied and whether they should be applied universally, which they should. and, yes. we are in the position here where we have to say marjorie taylor greene, someone who is so insulting and who has had so many horrible things, she is actually being treated unfairly under the standards that donald trump has created within the republican party. and the fact that she's getting kicked out of the freedom caucus, i guess, for being too extreme, i mean, we could talk about this for an hour, because

we have to dissect it and try to fully understand it, and even then, we won't grasp it all. >> unfortunately, we don't have enough time for that. former congressman carlos curbelo, and fernand amanda, by saturday morning power political panel, thank you both for being here this morning. and still to come, on the katie phang show, caught on camera. security surveillance showing indicted trump valet waltz nauta well trump is the indicted one, walt nauta moving boxes just -- before the -- and have officials use it to speed up the search of mar-a-lago. the one and only barber mcquade joins me next to break it all down. keep it right here on msnbc. re omsn nbc. our heritage is ingrained in our skin. and even when we metamorphosize into our new evolved form, we carry that spirit with us. because you can take alfa romeo out of italy.

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a plea of not guilty to six felony counts in the classified documents case. those counts include conspiracy to obstruct justice, false statements, and withholding and concealing documents. his arraignment was previously delayed twice, because now it's a claims he could not retain local council. but he now has a new florida representation. if you're wondering, who it is who would take their whack into this? a 34-year-old attorney from fort pierce, florida. sasha dayton is a former state public defender and her firm website focuses on domestic violence and injunctions. the new york times reporting her name does not appear at all in the nation right that a base for federal cases. so it remains to be seen how that will shake out for vault nauta. the plea from trump's right-hand man comes as we learn new details from newly-unredacted portions of last summer's search or an affidavit from mar-a-lago. federal agents were concerned when they saw surveillance footage showing nauta moving dozens of boxes out of a storage room just days after

investigators went to uncover documents from trump's residence. so what do these new developments mean? joining me now is barbara mcquade msnbc legal contributor former u.s. attorney in michigan, and the co-house of the hashtag sisters in law podcast. barbara, my friend, prosecutors have alleged, we've read it in that indictment, right, that walt nauta lied in a may 2022 interview about his knowledge of the classified material at mar-a-lago. now we know, warning, there are tapes. this newly-unredacted search warrant affidavit describes and later detail the weight of the evidence against nauta. so, how does this new info change the calculus for wealth nauta to either cooperate with the feds or just straight-up take a plea deal? >> you know, the video really seems to have prompted these charges against walt nauta and even a search, katie, there was some reluctance from the fbi to go in but once these tapes are revealed, showing the moving the boxes out, and then nauta talking to the fbi the next day

and contradicting what was on the tape, it became apparent that he was either a witness or a defendant. now, he had an opportunity to have a co-operator, back before the indictment was filed, that's going to be the time to maximize his valley. but since this time, the government has been able to maintain an indictment with donald trump, and it's riddled with lots of references to other witnesses. so, i think this is an opportunity to get a good deal, diminishes by the, day though i would say as a prosecutor, you can never have too many evidence. if you were to go forward and say, i would like to plead guilty, is apparently evidence against him is very, very strong, at least for that false statements claim. we claim not to have any information about the boxes, even though he was seen the day before moving them around at mar-a-lago. i would suspect that he may get less value in exchange at this point but, if you want to come forward, plead guilty, and cooperate, i think the government would be all too happy to take his information. >> so, his new lawyer, sought

dated same doesn't appear in pacer, which you and i know it's the federal court's case system across the united states. she may have significant state court experience with deep injunctions and car accidents. but barb let's speak not on the substance of legal issues, but of ethics right? what happened here with a professional credibility serving as local counsel for walt nauta? >> well, i'm a believer that everybody has a right to a defense, so representing someone in a case that is as egregious as this is certainly something that many defense lawyers do, because they believe their job is to defend the constitution and the rights of the accused regardless of how egregious the conduct may or may not be. i think her absence of experience in the federal system could be harmful. you know, the whole reason for local council is you want to have a local expert in the process and procedure psycho on their. she hasn't experience -- she is an experienced public

defender, so on the subject of a law, she should be fine. but in terms of knowing the rules of the courts that could be challenging. and i'm sure there will be people down the road to say she was that trump lawyer, so i don't want to work with her. but you know, there are people who represent all kinds of people who have been charged with serious crimes, including murder and kidnapping and other things, who have plenty of other clients that follow. so, i think her reputation will be fine. >> washington post is reporting this week that prosecutors in this documents case are facing threats. they say quote, far-right trump supporters are posting the names of prosecutors and government workers online and yelling them at demonstrations, threatening them, and sometimes revealing details about their personal lives. now, barb, witnessed intimidation, witnessed threats, that's one thing. but threatening the lives, or the lives of the prosecutors or their families? that's a little bit safer. it's how hard is it for the

department of justice to be able to protect not only the privacy, but the safety, of its prosecutors? >> this is a serious problem, katie. it really concerns me. you know, prosecutors from time to time to get death threats from people who are under investigation, but it's rare and focused single e on people who have been a breathed by, or perceived they have been aggrieved by prosecutors. it can be dealt with. you can put surveillance on those people, you can charge them, you can protect the prosecutor because you know who the threat is. here, it is more like a crowd sourcing the threat. and i'm really worried about it. this is something we see in third world countries, and effort to intimidate prosecutors to stand down from charges. the whole rule of law is at stake when prosecutors are intimidated in this way. and you ask about the ability to protect them. their names are going to get out there. when they go to court, they're gonna have to say their name on the record. they're going to have to sign pleadings. so, i think it's going to be impossible to remove their

names from the public discourse. i think the justice department can provide marshall service protection for them, but i think the bigger worry is that their names are at, there will be doxxed, their family members will be at risk, and they simply don't have the resources to protect all the family members of these people. so, i think this is a very dangerous trend. people who are targeting them are really creating a very dangerous time in this country. >> maybe they're actually creating criminal liability and exposure for themselves by targeting these prosecutors and their families. briefly, before we have to let you go, barb, last night, nbc releasing exclusive reporting about ex trump aides miles taylor -- in which miles alleges in 2018, trump's press secretary, sarah huckabee sanders, described an incident with trump displaying to reporters classified documents related to journalist jamal khashoggi's death. do you think jack smith has already had a lead on this? we keep on hearing these things

pop up here and there. we saw in the indictment about bedminster and the writing of a book, and journalists being present, even aipac person like susie wildes. like, it's a kind of stuff we think jack smith would have beaten already? >> he might. katie, it could be valuable. as what you know, it's for a four b evidence. evidence of the persons common scheme or plan. even if he doesn't charge it, you can use that as evidence to show that trump is very reckless on he handles classified information. so, every piece of evidence brings value. >> yeah, in that evidentiary rule would allow the prosecution to basically say it wasn't a mistake, right? it wasn't an accident or mistake on the part of trump. it's part of what he does. it's a part of his motive and his modus operandi. barbara mcquade, as always, i appreciate you being here. thank you for joining us this morning. >> thank you, katie. >> coming up next, abortion desert. health care workers are warning the accelerating abortion bans

could turn the southeast united states into an abortion desert, cutting off critical health care for millions of women. how activists are keeping up the fight as we enter year two of a post-roe america. stay with us. with us so i didn't think i needed swiffer, until, i saw how easily it picked up my hair every time i dried it! only takes a minute. look at that! the heavy duty cloths are extra thick, for amazing trap & lock. even for his hair. wow. and for dust, i love my heavy duty duster. the fluffy fibers trap dust on contact, up high and all around without having to lift a thing. i'm so hooked. you'll love swiffer. or your money back!

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of their constitutional rights to an abortion. since then, the changes have been fast and furious. more than a dozen states have near total abortion bans in place. the status of bands and at least seven other states remain up in the air as they face legal challenges in the court system. and that's just after one year. a -- piece of dire picture for your two of us are america. according to npr, abortion researchers and commissions for the gulf of southeast could become a quote abortion desert. one researcher says if states like florida, north carolina, virginia and south carolina, those states that provide essential access to abortions, if they implement total bans of their own, it will cut off access for people in the entire southeast from west texas to halfway up the atlantic coast. joining me now, robin marti, director of operations for the west alabama women's center and the author of the new handbook for a post roe america. robin, you and i have met often

to talk about abortion access and reproductive rights i have to ask what are your thoughts on these very bleak predictions for the second year of post roe? >> i'm nervous, obviously. i don't think there's anything in those predictions that are inaccurate. i would say it could actually be quite, a lot worse, than what's being suspected. one of the things that just came out recently was to study that showed that there were likely 10,000 extra births in texas over that year after they are a six-week ban went into effect. we are just now getting those numbers, so we know that we are at least a year behind in lag, when it comes to finding out how many people were not able to access abortion during a period and which abortion is banned. so, well right now, what we're getting are on the quick hits of these are the people who were denied care when they had medical issues, or these are the people who were denied care

and had to travel. the reality is that we are just now approaching a point where we can learn how many people were forced to give birth who were not wanting to, and that's going to continue to grow year after year. one of the things that i try to tell people is that when it comes to pregnancy, especially in states down here, where people don't have access to contraception, the first year isn't a scary year. that's the people get pregnant and give birth. it's the second year, when they get pregnant again, right have having just given birth, so their health outcomes are that much worse. that will continue to grow year after year. >> robin, i'm glad you brought up that statistic about the 10,000 more babies born in texas since the six-week ban went into place for 2021 in that state. more of a loss? where are the laws that are providing the resources for those mothers, for those babies, for those families, that are being born? i haven't seen any of those as a lawyer, as you are also

involved in this fight, i don't see the loss in places like texas. >> yeah, there aren't, and it's purposeful. i look at the last session in the alabama legislature, and there was literally nothing that was introduced and past that actually would support people who are going to be giving birth and who wants to keep their children. we saw a lot that was introduced that would have provided some tax benefits too so-called crisis pregnancy centers. it's the one thing that would have actually supported people who were getting some health care, obviously, not all pregnancy centers actually provide health care care, and honestly, the way it was written, our clinic would not have been included. but at least that was something they were trying to do. it did not pass. the only things that passed were a law that said that it is now easier to adopt and cheaper to adopt and faster to adopt, and a law that says you can relinquish your newborn up to three months, and give that

child away. the intention is not to have people give birth and raise their children. the intention is to have people give birth and give them away. >> unbelievable. robin, we've got to talk about mifepristone, right? more than half of the abortions in the united states are medical abortions, not through procedures. mifepristone, its future is at stake right now. we know there's been some conflicting decisions that have come out. the supreme court is going to be looking at them, i'm sure, eventually. what is the exposure, that risk, for american women if something like mifepristone ends up being completely banned across the united states? >> it's actually kind of ironic, because if mifepristone does become band in some way, it's actually the people who live in our banned states who would be the one who would be able to access the most effective means of medication abortion. people in states down here are getting them medication, either

through groups that are doing on the groundwork, or from pharmacies overseas. and they will continue to have mifepristone. it's the people who are living in the states that would actually have legal abortion access than might not be able to get that. now, i want to make it clear. using the ferocity only is completely effective. it's a slightly longer process. it's not quite as pleasant but in all honesty, if we could have just before presto abortion down in our states we would be more than happy to be able to access that. so, while mifepristone is a huge fight that is happening i think in a lot of weight is dividing our movement in making blue states that have access are so focused on protecting their own access they forget about those of us who have nothing at all. >> robin, i've got less than 60 seconds but i have to ask, there is now reporting again about underground railroad systems. this idea that you have to travel with the assistance, secretly and covertly, to be able obtain reproductive rights,

freedoms, in other states. you and i florida, alabama, et cetera at we've got people who are having to go other places. how is it we have found ourself in this level of regression that we have to have abortion underground railroads? >> first of all, i hate the term underground railroad. but i will say that there are a lot of systems that are in place, and they've been in place forever, even when we still had legal abortion across the entire nation. practical support groups, abortion funds, have always been doing this work because the reality is that for most people, it is not easy to access an abortion even in their own state. because of all the logistical rules. so, this has always existed. it should not exist because people should have the right to access abortion in their homes, wherever they want to for free, because the reality is that every pregnancy can potentially make that person die in childbirth and so if a person does not want to give birth,

they should not be forced to risk their life. >> robin marty, as always, i appreciate your insight and for you taking the time to make us that much smarter. thank you for joining us this morning. >> anytime. thanks katie. >> and coming up next, to end all war, we're going to talk about a new documentary that's going to air tomorrow, right here on msnbc, examining physicist jay robert oppenheimer, and his role in creating a weapon of war that change the world forever. you are watching the katie phang show, so keep it right here on msnbc. shingles doesn't care. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can also happen. the most common side effects are pain, redness and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, tiredness, headache, shivering, fever, and upset stomach.

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documentary premiering right here on msnbc tomorrow night takes a deep dive into the life and the legacy of the father of the atomic bomb. to end all war oppenheimer and the atomic bomb, explores j. robert oppenheimer creating the first nuclear weapon his

fallout with the government and his fingerprints and how we view war nearly 80 years later. joining me now for this conversation is christopher castle director of two and a war, oppenheimer and the atomic bomb. and skyberg, pulitzer prize-winning biographer in journalist and the coauthor of american prometheus the triumph and tragedy of j. robert oppenheimer. gentlemen looking forward to sharing this documentary with the viewers later, but chris i want to start with you. there's so much buzz surrounding the only this documentary, but also, kind of contemporaneously and upcoming christopher nolan movie on j. robert oppenheimer. you know, oppenheimer thought deterrence against future wars was the goal, but now, it's being wielded more as a sword and a shield. how would this ever be reconciled with what the vision was for oppenheimer for creating the atomic bomb? >> yeah well, he thought of, he thought this would be that deterrence that, that's how he

rationalize creating the bomb. as the particle says, two and all were, thinking that you know, after japan, after everyone saw the carnage of japan, there would never be used again. here we are, you know over 70 years later, and so far he's been right. however, there is still the threat of, you know, we see the headlines coming out of ukraine, the threat seems more real than it really has in the last 30 years. so, where once again faced with being that generation that has to be the custodian of this terrifying technology. and you know, there are a lot of words of oppenheimer's that can guide us in terms of understanding the importance of being responsible with this technology. its story is more relevant, really, but never. >> kai, you literally wrote the book on oppenheimer, coauthored his biography. a lot of people don't know this, and i think this is historically interesting.

he actually fell victim to mccarthyism. can you give me a brief description on how that was for him? >> yeah, that's what makes his story so fascinating. he triumphed as the father of the atomic bomb in 1945. his image was on the cover of time and life. and then, nine years later, he was brought down in this humiliating kangaroo court of a security hearing at the height of the mccarthy which haunts. and he was accused of being disloyal to his country, maybe a spy, and there was no evidence at all for any of this. and he was literally just, you, now he became a nonentity after this trial. and he was stripped of his security clearance and became a pariah. no longer welcome in the halls of washington. >> chris, for this documentary, you interviewed a survivor from hiroshima, who described what she had to go through after the

bomb hit. here's a quick clip from it. let's take a listen. maybe we don't have that. i'm just going to say a coat of what she said. she said, i remember every second. i've never been so helpless. i was under the debris, and, somehow had to crawl to the light and come out. as somebody who's creating a documentary like this, chris, that we today feel like we're so far removed from what happens back then, but that type of experience for this woman, what was your reaction to her accounting those days? the beauty of that city, and then you have to go to the aftermath of destruction? >> yeah, i was blown away by her. doctor he deco tamara is her name. i believe she's 86-year-old, she was ten when the bomb was dropped and and she still, she just so vivid. her depictions, her descriptions of that time were so vivid and haunting. she lost her mother, her cousin,

her best friends, she searched, she got out of the rubble, she searched for miles to find her mother. only to find out later that she had passed, and it's a scar that, deeply, obviously wounded her, but also has guided her through the rest of her life. and yet now, towards the end of a documentary, she kind of gives us really what i think the key takeaway is which is that we have to find common ground. we have to continue to find common ground, we have to make sure that we get never get to the point where this is never used again, and it's a struggle that will continue with add in four night i'm, forever. >> gives me the chills. chris castle and cupboard, i'm sorry we are out of time. i do want to tell my viewers, please go to the new yorker, can you, awesome piece that came out. oppenheimer nullified and vindicated. gentlemen, thank you for taking the time for joining me this morning. i appreciate it. >> thank you. >> thank you, katie. >> and watch to end of war,

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donald trump breaks in the campaign cash as he reels against the special counsel. but jack smith is closing in. we'll have the latest on the investigations and the campaign trail. supreme makeover. -- calls for reform after the supreme court's controversial ruling and questions about ethics. donald lithwick is here to discuss the possibilities. and a first for the first date. delaware congresswoman lisa blank roster joins me live to talk about her bid to be her state's first female senator, and first black senator, only the third black woman ever elected to the u.s. senate. i'm jonathan capehart this is the saturday show. >> ♪ ♪ ♪