>> good morning, it saturday, july, if i'm ali velshi. kevin mccarthy has been speaker of the house for six months. a position to which he was eventually elected, after a marathon first week of congress that involved 15 rounds of voting over four days. >> let's just listen in. it looks like we're done with the voting. [applause] >> mccarthy's got votes to win. >> smiling ear to ear, he got that bottom line he was looking for. >> it was a triumphant moment for mccarthy once he finally got enough votes in the early hours of january seven, but it was also a public embarrassment. the whole episode exposed the rift between the different factions of the republican conference, and the uneasy

alliance among them. at one point, a fight almost broke out on the house floor, but perhaps the most telling moment came at the very end. on his way out of the capital, at around two a.m. after finally taking his oath of office as speaker, mccarthy stopped to talk to reporters to give special thanks to a special someone. >> i do especially think president trump. i don't think anybody should doubt his influence. he was with me from the beginning, somebody wrote that out of what he was there, and he was all in. >> he was all in. kevin mccarthy maybe the speaker, but this is donald trump's house. built on the backs of trump's republican acolytes whose jobs depend on the support of donald trump's own base. but dynamics that were on display during a four-day speakership battle have continued to play out in the six months since. the chaos caucus republicans, many of whom are trump loyalists and some of whom participated in the attempt to deny mccarthy the speakership, brought the country to the

brink of economic default, just a few weeks ago. encouraged by trump to stonewall efforts to reach a deal on the debt limit. but mccarthy's speakership so far it will likely be remembered for republicans many efforts to avenge donald trump, to take action against his critics, against those who would hold him to account and to rewrite the narrative of his first presidential term in order to pave the way for his reelection. in january, republicans quickly approve the so-called subcommittee on the weaponization of the federal government, chaired by the trump henchmen, jim jordan, and seemingly created to validate and legitimize trump's many grievances. days after that, mccarthy blocked democratic congressman alec shiffrin and alec smallwell from being reappointed to the important and powerful intelligence committee, both men have served as impeachment managers, and had earned the former presidents i are. since then, schiff has also been censured by house republicans. house republicans have also

spent time calling for the impeachment of the attorney general, merrick garland, and the homeland security secretary, alejandro mayorkas. both on the basis of policy disagreements, not breaches of their office. attempts to introduce articles of impeachment against president biden, even incited an argument on the house floor between republican congresswoman lauren boebert and marjorie taylor greene, which led to greene being ousted from the right-wing republican freedom caucus. there's even an official attempt to expunge trump's two impeachments, and effort that has received the approval of kevin mccarthy, who told reporters quote, i think it's appropriate. you should expunge it, because it never should have gone through. and a quote. this is donald trump's house of representatives, and kevin mccarthy is just living their. but trump's rhetoric against federal law enforcement agencies on the executive branch is having the real effect well beyond washington. it's pushed many gop presidential candidates further to that right.

it's force them to make a vow to clean house, if they get elected. >> well, i think two and a half years of the russia hoax under my confidence, and equal treatment under the law of this country. if i'm president of the united states, we're going to clean house on the top floor of the justice department, and we're going to find the men and women that are respected in both political parties, because they exist. >> at the end there, mike pence implies the justice department is currently filled with political lackeys who are biased against republicans, people republicans allege like fbi director, chris wray. when the house returns to d.c. next week, rain will testify before and oversight hearing led by jim jordan and the judiciary committee, and he's expected to be questioned about a number of things, including unverified allegations of eva bribery scheme involving president biden. but it's worth remembering, wray was appointed by donald trump himself. in 2017, who called wray quote, an impeccably qualified

individual, end quote. the tragedy of the republicans campaign against the justice department is they're chipping away at the legitimacy of the doj and the public's faith in it. and all the justice department is trying to do is hold to account the twice impeached, twice indicted so far republican front runner, who's risked our national security, weekend democracy, and remains under investigation. as trump continues to demean the men and women of the department of justice and other members of the federal government, it's worth remembering with dubious american -- lawyers who trump recruited to overturn the 2020 election. just yesterday, a disciplinary panel unanimously recommended that rudy giuliani be disbarred for his role in those efforts, saying quote, his malicious and merit-less claims have done lasting damage, end quote. on wednesday, lynnwood iski forced to retire amid disciplinary probes by the state bar of georgia, and sidney powell is under scrutiny by special counsel jack smith,

as his investigation hones in on a chaotic oval office meeting during which trump and his allies discussed, among other things, appointing taboo, trump's lawyer, at the special counsel to investigate baseless claims of election fraud. joining me now is the former republican congressman from pennsylvania, charlie dent. the executive director and vice president of the congressional program at the aspen institute. also with us, steve bannon, the producer of the rachel maddow's show, and msnbc political contributor and author of the book, the impostors, how republicans quick governing and ceased american politics. congressman, i've been wanting both of you, but congressman, they want to start with you. basically, with the title of steve's book, this isn't governing. there's no part of this is governing. on that night by mccarthy won the speakership, on january 7th, you wrote an op-ed for cnn titled, the deal mccarthy's truck wasn't inexplicable act of self destruction. in it, you wrote, quote, pragmatic and rational republican members who bristled

at the concessions that mccarthy handed to gaetz and his ilk must force a course correction and change that dynamics. this is the moment for rational house republicans to make their stand. end quote. doesn't look like anyone took your advice. >> no, not at the moment. but ali, what i will say is one of my great frustrations i serve in the house is that we had a group in the house who, you know, the projectionist wing of the party that could never get that yes, the things they could never do. they just thought that that governing was somehow a sin. it was wrong, and they didn't realize that was part of their job. it was very frustrating. that dynamic remains, except in many respects, it's gotten worse. you know, there's not a subgroup within the house freedom caucus that is bent on basically defying leadership at every opportunity, even when they're doing the right thing, like on the budget agreement and that sealing a court.

those types of things. so, this is the frustration. and you know, obviously, mccarthy, he had to surrender his way to victory at speakers gavel, and unfortunately, he owes a lot of what he's got right now to donald trump and trump is not going to go away, and we'll see how trump behaves coming forward. we've got the september 30th deadline coming up, and the year and, we've got a train wreck. that will likely occur. there's still two more big obstacles in that way of governing, as far as i can tell. >> and steve, look. this is an important conversation about republicans in congress, but i brought in that stuff about mike pence and what he said to sort of indicate that donald trump siege the ground, and everyone else enjoys the fruit of the tree. there is no reason for mike pence, who actually did the right thing on january six of last year, to be carrying on about cleaning house at the department of justice. and yet, this is a trump thing. it's now becoming a republican thing. it's a thing in the house of representatives of the deep state involves the highest

levels of the fbi and department of justice, and so mike pence joins the party. >> right, i think one of my biggest fears going into this election cycle is we will see a race to the bottom, for donald trump will set the standard, and he -- panders to the parties roast rabbit followers. and then everyone else has entered that race and save no, i can be more extreme than that. i can one up trump and be even more intolerant. i could be even more extreme. i could be more hostile to democracy. i can promise to a clean house in the justice and get rid of officials who otherwise haven't done anything wrong and don't deserve to be ousted. so, i think this raises inherently unhealthy. not just for the gop party, but for american politics in general, because it's a race no one ultimately wins. >> charlie, you've got ron desantis who is trying that race to the bottom. he's trying to out-trump trump. he had a crazy at that came out this week. he implied that donald trump marginally nice to gay people, and that's why he shouldn't be the presidential candidate. on the other hand, you've got

will hurd, who has just during the race. you've got isa hutchinson, chris christie, people who are prepared to take the stand and say we stand for sort of conservative principles, but not that. i think when you add where these three guys are running, it's about 3% or something to that nature. maybe 4%. it's there any hope that's enough people might make it to a debate stage where they can sort of say there's an alternative in the republican party, and it doesn't have to be trump, but it doesn't have to be people who try to out-trump trump, like desantis? >> i certainly hope there's a path for chris christie and will hurd and asa hutchinson, but one thing about christie and heard, which differentiates himself from some of these other republican candidates, if they can actually run and -- in very difficult places, where republicans aren't really supposed to win. so, they come at this from a very different perspective. they understand the importance of winning independents and swing voters, and they also understand that trump, you know, is a disaster! it's a catastrophe with those

types of voters! and what these guys are good at pointing out, and this is what i hope most republicans will soon get sick of losing, again, i keep saying, trump has made losing great again, because all we've seen since trump was elected in 2016 for republicans was defeat in 2018, the house, 2020, the presidency and the senate, 2022, a significant underperformance by republicans. so, at some, point the party must get serious about winning. and at least christiane hurd and hutchinson are talking about that by trying to out-trump trump, some of these other guys are doing, white bother? why would you take a cheap imitation when you can get the real thing, i guess? it doesn't make any sense. and trump, they all know he's a disaster, even the people who are supporting trump know he is not good for the health of the party or the majority. >> when you think about this, like it will, hurd or chris christie, son article that said yesterday, christy, in a normal world, could run on the idea

that hey, i've made deals with democrats. i've had a democratic legislature. i can compromise. i know how to do that. in this particular republican primary, maybe not in the entire republican party, but with the people who voted republican primaries right now, in particular those who are supportive of donald trump and maybe ron desantis, which is now close to three quarters of the primary voters, compromise doesn't help. being able to work across party lines doesn't count for what you think it should count for. >> yeah, it reminds me of yoga bear a lot, déjà vu all over again. i remember 2016, i had a similar conversation. there's a massive field of candidates with extensive experience, people like jeb bush and others, who, as i recall, didn't they are especially well when they went to voters with exactly this kind of message. they would say, i know how to govern. i know how to get things done. i know to compromise. i know how to strike deals, and there was donald trump saying, i can't do any of those things, but for me, and the republican base rallied right behind him, and that we're seeing it all

over again. there is no reason to believe they're going, in the current landscape, anything is likely to change anytime soon. >> charlie, the chaos caucus and the hard-liners are actually a relatively small group of republicans, because of how slim mccarthy's majority is. they got outsized power over those you call rational republicans. we have many of them on our show who want to come on the show and discuss policy and what they, as conservatives, would do about wages, health care, things like that. this is a hard line for kevin mccarthy to dread. part one for any speaker to tread. how do you think he's doing with that? do you think he's living to fight another day, and that's a good thing? or has his behavior in the last six months indicated that he, more often than not, capitulates? >> well, he's had to make really, very difficult decisions to those hard-liners. i think short term, he's got in the budget agreement, he's

gotten the speakers gavel, but i think his better path forward is through do what he did all of that ceiling. find a group of democrats with whom he can work and keep striking deals with them. marginalize those folks on the fringe. as much as he can. that's the way, keep him out of the picture, and keep cutting deals with those democrats until they won't cut deals with you anymore! that was my advice to john boehner in the fall right as well, as long as you have a -- group out there, all it takes is five members to knock down whatever the majority wants, and there's even willing to take down procedural votes like rules, why deal with them? might not just cut a deal with hakeem jeffries, like he did one of the that ceiling, and keep doing? that was, the wait till the democrats won't do it anymore. >> always great to talk to you. great, wish i could talk to you for an entire hour on the stuff, but thank you for continuing to come back for us. former congressman charlie dent of pennsylvania, and steve benen, msnbc political contributor producer for the

rachel maddow show, and the author of -- we're going to turn our attention to a new ruling that's going to make it harder for the government to fight disinformation on social media. just as the 2024 election cycle gets underway. plus, president biden is receiving praise from republicans and criticism from democrats for his decision to supply ukraine with cluster bombs. we're going to discuss what they are, why they're controversial, and what effect they could have on the battlefield. lefield. (vo) this is sadie, she's on verizon. and she's got the new myplan, so she gets exactly what she wants and only pays for what she needs. she picks her perks and saves on every one. make your move to myplan. act now and get it for $25 when you bring your phones. it's your verizon. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. now you get out there, and you make us proud, huh? ♪ bye, uncle limu.

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russia's full scale invasion of ukraine, and recently, my colleague, nbc's jessi kirsch, got a first look at the effort to arm ukraine that's taking place right here in the united states. >> [sound of gunfire] >> in the middle of this bloody offensive, ukraine's success relies on a very different frontline. this one, more than 5000 miles

away, in scranton, pennsylvania. >> we are producing thousands around's more a month and we were this time last year. >> inside this u.s. armyon pnt,r general dynamics produces 155 millimeter artillery shells. eventually becoming some of the very firepower crucial to ukraine's fight against russia. in late may, nbc news was granted access to the plants. one of the locations helping make 24,000 rounds each month. >> i can feel that heat from back here. the army says this is a 2000-degree furnace essentially turning steel into play-doh. >> american steel sculpted, inspected, and sent off to the army for explosive. part of what the pentagon says is an urgent ramp up. the army won't tell us exactly how many are going to ukraine. the army says that is because of security concerns. but even if every one of these shelves went to ukraine, that may still not be enough. >> some of the scranton

community grateful for the city's role in the ukrainian or efforts. >> the pride is just huge. >> yeah, i think you, they should get as much ammunition as they can. >> but figuring out how to send so much firepower to ukraine also raises concerns about america running out of ammunition. seth jones studies military operations. >> if the united states went to war today, would this country be ready for the fight? >> the united states went to war today, they would have enough weapons, in some cases, for a short war. it would not have sufficient weapons, munitions, for a protracted war, and that is the problem. >> the pentagon told nbc news it was meeting the needs of ukrainian forces, while ensuring our inventories are replenished. tensions with russia and china, the army says right now, it's experiencing its fastest conventional ammunition ramp up since the korean war. a race to help those on the battlefield today, and possibly,

tomorrow. jesse kirsch, nbc news, scranton pennsylvania. , nbc news >> and thanks to jessie for that report. coming up next dive into the latest effort by the u.s. government effort to arm ukraine, one proving to be quite controversial. roversial. i'm feeling this moment. along with clearer skin skyrizi helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. and is just 4 doses a year after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. there's nothing like clearer skin and better movement-and that means everything! ask your doctor about skyrizi today. learn how abbvie could help you save.

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tourists taking photos that are analyzed by ai. >> after resisting ukraine's so researchers can help life underwater flourish. ♪ long-standing request, the biden administration has now announced it is sending western unitia's to ukraine, as part of a latest round of military aid. now, cluster new nations, more commonly known as a cluster bomb, is a single warhead. you are looking at one now. filled with dozens of smaller explosives. the larger warhead explodes mid air, sending the explosives raining down on a wire area cluster, calls and greater damage and destruction on the target on the ground. cluster bombs have been used by both sides during the war, mainly by russia on ukrainian civilians. notably, one of the deadliest attacks in the war, in april

2022, was an attack on a train station in eastern town of kramatorsk, and killed more than 60 civilians and wounded more than 100. the decisions to send these weapons to ukraine is causing a lot of controversy, people here in the united states and abroad because of the devastating consequences that these cluster munitions have on civilians. those dozens of smaller explosives that are failure fairly high failure rate, means they don't all explode once initially hit the ground. however, they're still primed. think about it as a grenade with a pin pulled out. so, a touch or a movement in the coming days or weeks, months, even years can set the explosive off. that could have catastrophic consequences for those nearby. in fact, cluster bombs are banned under a treaty signed by more than 100 nations and a 2008 convention on cluster munitions. most nato nations are part of that treaty. however, notably, the united states, ukraine, and russia are not signatories to it. multiple congressional

republicans are praising the decisions to send these cluster munitions. several democrats have come out against it, including air force veteran representative christie houlihan, who says that while quote, a victory for ukraine is essential for democracies across the globe, that shouldn't come at the expense of our american values and thus, democracy itself, and it is a quote. we should not quote, employ the same tactics russia is using, blurring the lines of moral high ground, end quote. president biden says while the discussion was difficult, sending cluster bombs to ukraine is needed to prevent ukraine from running out of ammunition, which, as we saw in the last segment before the break, it's a very real fear of the war grinds on. today is the 500th day of russia's full-fledged invasion, which putin plant would take about three days before he could capture kyiv, the capital. overnight, eight civilians were killed and scores more wounded in the russian strike on the city of lyman, which comes on the heels of what ukrainian officials say it's the largest

attack on the western city of lviv, a city i visited several times as recently as last week. ten civilians are dead. almost 54 wounded in the missile attack which also destroyed several buildings and more than 100 apartments. joining me now is retired lieutenant colonel alexander vindman, the former director of european affairs for the united states national security council. he's a new york times bestselling author of the important book, here, right matters. an american story. a loss of colonel vindman in ukraine when we were there a couple of weeks ago. carl, good to see you again. thank you for being with us. cluster munitions are a complicated issue. i saw it, an important tweet from you about this. whatever peoples moral issues are with them, you think it's important to send them. why? >> yes, i do. great seeing you again, ali. one thing i heard, i just got back from ukraine yesterday. one thing i heard consistently 's short haul munitions is what

could allow this offensive to get, that is intended to break the russians in their military, it had to liberate territory, it could fail on a shortage of munitions. so, this is an important system from a practical standpoint. this is not conceptual issue, this is a real issue. at the same time, russia has been using cluster munitions with a high dug rate throughout this war. ukraine is going to be receiving very very low -- dug rate, which means 1% filtrate, as advertised by the manufacturer. so, the ability to use these things without a huge addition to the minefields is going to be part of a formula here. the ukrainians are employing constructs on how they use them. they will identify where these mutations are used to be able to track them. there are millions of mines now in ukraine. the longer this work goes, the more lines go. in the ability to provide these weapons to ukraine will shorten the war. therefore, reduce the amount of mines in aggregate that we will

see at the end of this war. it is a very important system. i would also add that we, as a u.s. is not a signatory to this, because we could see these weapons would be important in the near peer conflict. we need them to protect our soldiers lives. we should be as thoughtful about the ukrainians and their soldiers lives, especially when they are the ones bearing the cost, when they are the ones assuming the burden, and we should leave it in their capable hands that they will do what they need to and be effective at managing and mitigating the effects of customer musicians. this is an important decision, and the biden administration deserves a lot of credit for taking the step. >> okay, so, the issue, of course, comes on monday, when joe biden is in vilnius for the nato summit, the first summit since finland has joined nato. they are going to be some tensions there, including the fact that sweden has not been able to join nato, despite wanting to do so. 30 and, to some degree, hungary, have been holding that back. biden needs to convince nato to let sweden in. at the same time, every other

nato ally bands clustered munitions. so, now, biden, who has done for a year and a half, a hell of a job bringing nato together after donald trump tried to disband the organization, is now going to face some pushback from our own allies. we've seen that pushback before, a little bit from france, a little bit from germany on the leopard tanks. how does this all play out? who's going to get there and get an earful for some of these leaders? >> i actually don't think he's going to get much of an earful. i know the administration was very concerned about congressional support, especially through the democratic caucus, and from allies that have signed on to bounce on mines and custom cluster munitions. i don't think he's going to get that much pushback. our allies to recognize how important this munition is going to be to liberated territory, kind of bringing about a more rapid conclusion to this war. i think we should always remember the sensuality of our values to our interests, but at the same time, be quite pragmatic at recognizing there

will be crises, essential crises, that will sometimes force us to compromise in order to preserve our systems as a whole. this is really at the margins, plays into that same role. our compass heading will always be the centrally of our values our principles. but we have to balance that with the reality and the fact that in order to actually secure our interests, we have to lead. there will be threshold like this. this is an important example of a time we have to compromise in order to ensure that the state of ukraine perseveres and winds and is able to carry on. with regards to nato, a very important question. right now, the administration is thinking about nato from the standpoint of risk. instead of opportunity. in fact, nato has an opportunity to help grant down this war, bring into its rapid conclusion. the ability to extend nato membership to ukraine closes off an important possibility

for putin to extend this war inevitably, indefinitely, rather, and half a veto over ukraine's membership. being able to offer a concrete plan for ukraine's nato membership actually closes down the opportunity, and helped wind down this war, recognizing that what are they fighting for? they're not going to be able to secure ukraine. they will not be able to achieve military victories. the only thing they're hanging on to you now is this hope of having a veto over ukraine's nato membership, and feeling like the west weakens overtime. make it membership kills that idea. >> eight year and a half ago, vladimir putin came out there and said that the whole point is to not have nato expands. that is why he was going to ukraine. now, nato is 900 miles longer along its border. carl, good to see you as always. it was good to see you in ukraine. thank you for joining me while we were there, and it's good to talk to you soon. retired army colonel alexander vindman, former director of european affairs the newest national security council, and author the important book, here, right matters, an american story. tomorrow -- monday was the hottest date

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east of the rocky mountains to just east of the mississippi river. governor kathy hochul of new york's warning new yorkers a potential flooding, as rain and thunderstorms are expected statewide today. last night, there were temporary ground delays at jfk, newark, at laguardia airports because of severe weather. yesterday, heavy rains across the washington, d.c., and maryland region caused flash flooding in northern virginia. firefighters were dispatched to rescue a group of drivers who became stranded in arlington, virginia, just outside of washington, d.c.. harsh rain and hail pounded parts of western pennsylvania on the thursday, and this is the earth's temperature enters uncharted territory. monday was earth's hottest day in 125,000 years. tuesday was hotter. wednesday was halted than that, thursday was the hottest. in el paso, texas, 22 days in a row of 100 plus degree temperatures. but rising global temperatures is likely to recent heat waves around the world, and el niño,

which is a weather pattern that unleashes surges of heat and moisture. all of this is directly linked to human behavior. behavior scientists have been warning about for years, but i think people operate under and i'll believe it when i see it mentality when it comes to climate change. many can't relate, unless it's directly affecting their lives, like those wildfires in canada. americans barely back and i unless the smoke, until the smoke from those fires fills our eyes and our skies. and our lungs. and it's all reminiscent of the dust bowl. in the 1930s, a murky cloud of dust originated in the drought field midwest and crept across half the nation. federal lawmakers were slow to act, until this happened. the massive cloud engulfed washington, to see. then, they went into action. there's much more to that piece of history, which now appears to be repeating itself. i'm going to talk about it tomorrow here on velshi. i'll be joined by the great michael mann, climate expert, presidential distinguished professor of earth and environmental science and director of the penn center for science, sustainability, and the media.

that's tomorrow, starting at 10 am eastern. more velshi, after a quick break. break.

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federal judge restricted the biden administration's ability to communicate with social media companies, a decision that could significantly hinder the governments ability to work with platforms to address misinformation and disinformation online. the injunction, ordered by a federal judge in louisiana, came in response to a suit that was filed, not by the social media companies, but by republican attorney generals in missouri and louisiana. that suit claims the biden administration's past conduct and past communication with social media companies violates the first amendment. it argues that the executive branch put undue pressure on social media companies in trying to persuade them to limit or remove posts considered to be disinformation, specifically related to covid vaccine hesitancy, and election integrity.

the ruling prohibits agencies like the fbi and the purpose of health and human services from communicating with social media companies like meta platforms, twitter, and youtube. the biden administration responded to the injunction by's filing a motion to state or pause the judges order. the case continues a pattern of republican-led attacks on anti disinformation efforts. now, you probably can't remember the disinformation governments forward, it was a department of homeland security initiative to coordinate against disinformation targeting the u.s. population and infrastructure, because it was so heavily attacked by republicans the board was paused itself, just three weeks after it was formed, and it was eventually terminated. in recent months, republican lawmakers have mounted a sweeping legal campaign to hinder disinformation researchers with expansive requests for information and subpoenas. joining me to discuss this is roger mac, the major silicon valley investor cofounder of elevation partners, and the -- coauthor of the book is up, to make him through the facebook

contrasted free. australia's -- center for intermission resilience to justify before congress britain's parliament and that he was parliament about matters relating to disinformation. she was initially appointed to lead that short lived disinformation combine -- governance board, without department of homeland security before it was shut down, and she is the author of the important book, how to lose the information war. good morning to both of you, thank you for being with me for this important discussion. nina, let's start with you. the implication, if you don't read past the headline on this story, is the governor is trying to influence social media companies in violation of the first amendment which prevents the government from stifling speech. that's not really the story. >> no, not at all. i think what's important to understand, ali and people will have you believe that any contact between the government and social media companies is censorship. that's just not true. in fact, most of the counter disinformation work that is being done, not only by the government, but by researchers outside of government, has nothing to do with censorship.

it's about countering with more speech. it's about more speech, getting the facts out there. it's not about removing speech and, what's happened in this injunction, and if you go through the emails that are in that injunction, nothing that is in there is really about the removal, expressly, removal of speech. it's the governments flagging things that expressly go against the social media companies terms of service and policies, and in most of the instances, in fact, more than 70% of the instances, the government has taken no or rather, the social media companies have taken no action in responding two government -- >> so it's not a government order, just to be clear. >> absolutely! >> it's a government contacting meta or twitter and saying, take this down. it's a different level of communication. saying hey, there is an issue here. >> yeah, exactly. it's a flag saying hey, you may not have seen this. if you know, by the way, the social media companies aren't great at finding this stuff. hey, you might not have seen this. here's some election disinformation. here's something that could threaten public health.

there already goes against your policies. we thought you might want to know about it. >> roger, you and i have been talking for years, and there's lots of issues about social media, and its effect of democracy, and its effect on kids self esteem and all sorts of issues. but this is central to your book and your whole idea. there is lots of disinformation out there and we don't have the right mechanisms to stop it, so where there is some cooperation and ability to do so, in this case, between the government and the social media platforms, let's not go backward by eliminating that. >> ali, i think the problem has gotten a lot worse this year. and essentially, there is now a coordinated campaign to make disinformation central to our electoral process. and it comes at a moment in time when that major internet platforms have reached market saturation. it's really hard for facebook and instagram and youtube to grow, because they have literally billions of users today.

for them, this information is really good for business, because it triggers flight or fight. it triggers outrage and fear. people have to look at it as a matter of self protection. and so, if you want to increase engagement, right advertising revenue, having your algorithms promote engage in content like disinformation hate, speeches, a super way of doing. it now, that's come at a moment in time when the republican party has simply organized itself around voter suppression in the round of this information as a tool for doing that. and they have enough control of the courts that this has become a legal matter, and from my perspective, we should all be viewing this as a five alarm fire, and we should recognize that our democracy isn't just under assault, right now, we do not have an adequate defense to fight against this. nina is one of the truly great people in our country on this issue, and her own life experience reflects exactly how broken our system is. >> you too are the heavy hitters on this, which is why i wanted to talk to you about

this, because both of you focus on what should be done. there's lots of people, lots of ink spilled on writing about criticism of social media. the issue here is what can be done about this very dangerous threat of this information? need, not one of the things roger drums into my head is social media, as it exists, it's incompatible with an informed electorate, and, hence incompatible with democracy. so, given what's happened, this is an actual court ruling. i think you called it a weaponization of the court system. first of all, are conservatives not worried this is going to come back and bite them? if you encourage misinformation and this information to freely flow on social media, don't you also get to be on the wrong side of this sometimes? >> you know, ali, this is something i have repeated over and over over the past eight years or so. every time i've testified before congress, and, even when i got deposed by jim jordan a couple of months ago in relation to the disinformation governance board as part of this attacked on researchers in

the disinformation space i said this information is not a partisan issue. it's a democratic one. it could come for any of us, at anytime, so we should not want our democratic system to be based on lies. i holy agree with roger here. this is a political effort to squash any research, to quash any inquiry into the distant formers that are ruining and polluting our system ahead of the 2024 election. it's also, i think, really important to note it is an attempt to intimidate researchers and civil servants who are doing this important work. this has cost me my ten weeks in government has cost me tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees, based on absolutely erroneous allegations that have no basis in reality. nobody who is in government right now is going to come anywhere near any of these important issues or touch them with a ten foot pole because they don't want to get caught on the wrong side of these lawsuits, and have been hung out to dry. i think that's really, really problematic for our civil

service and for our government as a whole. this is, akin to mccarthyism, in my opinion. i agree. it's a five alarm fire. it's something we should all be really concerned about. unfortunately, i don't have a lot of hope that once the biden administration appeals this step, it's going to go to a higher court. i believe, in texas, where rulings against that countering of disinformation and for truth have been few and far between. >> roger, the other day, normally very thoughtful conservative friends of mine, i think -- responded to a tweet that what about, and said i, don't want government managing opinions that i see. on the internet. i think it misses the point, but i sort of wish i had my pocket, what would rodgers say, app. what's the argument, when someone says that to you? i don't want government being involved in opinions that i see on the internet, whether they're good or bad opinions. that is the first amendment problem, as some conservatives see it. >> ali, our founding fathers

constructed a government that was us. it was meant to represent the people. and to do the peoples well. so, the attempt, which really has been going on for nearly 50 years, to position government, it's something else, as a problem, as the enemy, that is all part of destroying democracy. if the founding fathers had a very clear point, which is we are supposed to elect representatives to act in our interest. our interest is in having a fully functioning democracy, and having a democracy, where our forces are not only heard, but where we are each given equal representation in the system. that is not where we are today. money speaks much louder that votes. and the incentives of government, the incentives of business, the incentives of journalism, unfortunately, are all aligned to support the powerful at the expense of the mass of the country. and i look at this as a

situation where we, as citizens, need to remember that our voice matters, and we need to make it hurt right now. this is one of those moments where if we sit back and just observe for too long, we missed the window for action, because in another era, what the republicans are doing what have been viewed as unpatriotic. totally un-american, and white were not positioning it has now today is something i completely do not understand. >> there's a lot more to talk about here, and i appreciate you being in on this discussion with us. roger back in the silicon valley investor, cofounding of -- the author of the important book, zipped, waking up to the facebook catastrophe. nina jankowicz is the vice president of the center for information resilience in the author of the important book, how to lose the information war. these are must read books. i encourage you, if you haven't led them, to take a look at them. we'll be right back. t the other way. zevo traps use light to attract and trap flying insects with no odor and no mess.

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velshi this saturday morning. start right ahead, it's not a trump. household problems and representative seem to be working for the former president and how that's playing a part in the 2024 primary politics. another hour of velshi begins right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> good morning to, q is saturday, july 8th, i'm ali velshi. republicans have been running the house of representatives for six months now, since getting control of the last midterm elections. kevin mccarthy took over as the

speaker of the house on january the 7th. exactly six months ago. a position he was elected to after a marathon session that involved 15 rounds of voting over four days. >> let's listen in, it looks like we are done with the voting. [applause] >> mccarthy's got the votes to win. >> smiling ear to ear, he got the bottom line he was looking for. >> it was a triumphant moment for mccarthy, who many new had one wanted, the draw for some time. but it was also a public embarrassment. the whole episode exposed the rift between the different factions of thre conference and the easy -- on these alliance among them. at one point a fight almost broke out on the house floor, but perhaps the most telling moment came as mccarthy made his way out of the capital, at around two a.m., after finally taking his oath of office during -- to talk to reporters to give a special thanks to a special