good evening and welcome to ayman tonight on the heels of donald trump's second indictment as republicans are now vowing to investigate justice department. this as the ex president himself attacked the special counsel. plus despite that indictment, donald trump is handily beating ron desantis and gop primaries. so why is the florida governor struggling to make way right now? and elon musk versus mark zuckerberg. that sounds like fun. the tech burrow feud for the

ages, and a legal headache for all involved. our richard louis in for a man -- let's get started. while house republicans are doubling down on their criticism of the department of justice. on the heels of donald trump's second indictment, and hunter biden's pleaded with federal investigators. political reports as committees controlled by the gop will make finding the doj and fbi the cornerstone of the party's agenda in the coming months. multipronged assault could include attempts to impeach attorney general merrick garland. fbi director christopher remembers is a trump appointee from his position. flash the budget for various law enforcement agencies, and count the fbi surveillance authority. first days of best buy is expected in the coming days. wednesday the fbi director will testify before the house judiciary committee. donald trump is similar --

media platform, including from a few hours ago, trump went after that special counsel jack smith and what he calls the corrupt doj. he says the doj aims, to, quote damage the republican party as a means of election interference. he claims that democrats and weaponize long important is calling for the justice department to be defended. and sanctions for so-called prosecutorial misconduct. now one of the concerns with this, further politicization of government. trump has now promised payback for his prosecution, he tells supporters that he is elected he will appoint, quote, real special prosecutor to go after his political rival joe biden and his family. -- authoritarian hand of all. all, right let's bring in our panel. fernando -- a democratic pollster and an msnbc political analyst daniel moody, host of the woke af

podcaster. how ghost of the democracy-ish and the new abnormal podcast. -- . criminal defense attorney at an msnbc legal analyst. then you go we will start with you on this. all of these moves by republicans and what they are saying they are going to, do let's start with first off when we are looking at the doj and what the threats have been made so far. has that been done before? other presidents that you would look at? and are there any teeth to what they say they are about to implement in the coming months? >> not since 1876 has a cabinet official been impeached by congress. and that was at the ulysses s grant evaluation to give you -- impeachment to be is a very ominous threat because the very -- only accusation -- conviction and removal but the process itself is a purely political one. it may look a lot like a criminal prosecution, but that is just cosmetic. it's more about putting someone on trial, figuratively.

actually in a case where you know you don't have the two thirds majority in the senate to actually convict and remove the accused. >> fernando we look at this, if that is the case. how is the strategy for some republicans and trump still working for that. we don't see at least based on what danny is saying to us -- that will be any progress to what i say was -- >> richard, a couple of things and we understand. i think it's hard as americans to accepted maybe understand that even though we see it unfold before our eyes the better part of all most six years, the republican party has become an authoritarian project that is totally against the classic institutions that have made up the united states and of course establish the rule of law. you heard any talk about what is under threat. second, and pretend you hear donald trump and his allies make every one of these

outlandish statements, it is nothing more than an attempt, at this point we are in a post indictment world where trump has now been indicted. not once but twice, to try to influence a potential jury pool. whatever that is and whatever that is. in donald trump's world, he is incapable of committing any crimes. anything that he does, even if it is a smoking gun phone call, which exist, even if there are recordings, which exist. it doesn't matter. it is the weaponization of government from his point of view. and all he and his allies will continue to try to do, just to let the public understand, they know it is not anything that amounts to a legal defense. this is simply sending the word to the maga base in the hopes that one or two of them will end up on a jury and vote not guilty or vote puncture, that is what this is all about. >> when you look at the strategy and approach, we can certainly see why that might work for one candidate, donald trump. that worked with his base

certainly. and it seems like many members of congress are saying, yes, we are gonna go along with that. but what about the swing moderate voters that he lost in 2020? right? if he is going to try to win, does this work with that group of voters? >> no, richard, outside of the maga bubble people that live on earth one actually want a president at a presidential candidate that is clean. meaning that doesn't have one and two indictments, and then also we have to remember that there are other indictments that are looming. right? and again, this case, the case of the documents, it came out of south florida. so for us to assume that nobody on that jury was a moccasin porter is not realistic. and so here's the thing, republicans don't want law and order, they want absolute power. they want authoritarianism. they want to be above reproach. they want us to have no voice and no votes. and that is exactly what this supreme court has been doing

with their weaponization and the ability to do so through mitch mcconnell's stealing of a supreme court seat. and donald trump for being able to jam it to other people. so we are living in the wild wild west. and republicans want to be able to do anything and everything that they want. >> donny the institutions that we are talking about of justice, what will they probably do? what have they done in the past? when they face such criticisms? either coming from members of congress and or potential candidates. will it be what we have seen so far? mostly say nothing? >> you took the words of my mouth, yeah, you took the nothing read my mouth. which is that that is classic doj. doj considers itself above this or independent from this. and well, they should. even though they are part of the executive branch, it has always been understood that as a cabinet official, the head of the doj it's not operating at the behest of the president. the same way that other members of the cabinet are there. they're independent, they make

an event decisions about who to prosecute. and to not to prosecute. which of course is at the center of the controversies here. on the one hand the decision to prosecute donald trump. and the decision to not prosecute or to minimally prosecute hunter biden, the current presidents. you, know let's move to this part of the conversation, fernand. i have been saying some republicans for certain purpose, and that is that according to politico saying the republican caucus, you know, they have got splits. i know it is a surprise to you on this very approach and other issues. including on cutting spending to achieve these objectives, right? speedos, we will not funded. so some republican lawmakers warning other republican lawmakers to think twice about how they are gonna use this tactic of spending bills to target specific. agencies >> it has been done before, and i guess the question might be how far right

disco? >> well how far might it go? this is why none of us were any american wants to be kevin mccarthy these days. because these split specifically when the house gop, which is the one body of government that republicans got to actually show something. so they have to govern and they have the responsibility of at least attempting to govern. you see this performance of extreme sections of the freedom caucus and other folks really playing politics, driving kevin mccarthy for no other reason than to just try and keep the base satisfied at home. at the end of the day, you still have mccarthy trying to get bills passed, budget passed, and fundamentally -- more ammunition, more -- 2024. if mccarthy is forced into defunding the doj, to finding the fbi. my god, that's what's the holdup funding the police narrative on it said. and it makes the republican party the anti law enforcement party.

something they certainly don't want to have to contend with into 2024. but it is a clear present danger, because right now just like we have seen in the trump campaign, the fact that this campaign is even happening, in a lot of respects, it is the defense against these criminal investigations. and trying to politicize, and they are trying to diminish the public perception of that. >> danny, i want to move on, we mentioned in the top here, director wray who was expected on the hill next week to testify in front of the house judiciary committee, he was appointed as you know by trump and now according to some republicans he is part of some anti conservative deep state conspiracy. if republicans do not agree on strategy as we have been talking about so far, how do democrats leverage that? >> i think that they allow republicans to combust. which is what they do at all of these committee hearings. anytime that they are able to ask a line of questioning, we recognize that they are a as shallow as a puddle. they are not offering anything to the american people.

and we recognize that this is an extension of the trump campaign. they bring in ray as a way to, what? and committed to him embarrass him, or threatened him. at the behest of donald trump. they are performing for an audience of one. so i think that democrats make it very clear in terms of the line of questioning, allows the doj to express exactly how they have been thorough. exactly how they are trying to de-politicized the department of justice. which was politicized under donald trump. that he used the department of justice as his own law firm. right? so we can see that democrats have an opportunity for the department of justice to tell the american people the truth. and then watch the car implode. >> all right, our panel is going to stick around and i had for, ukraine desantis struggles to find his footing in a race where trump has a monopoly on the maga movement.

we moved out of the city so our little sophie could appreciate nature. but then he got us t-mobile home internet. i was just trying to improve our signal, so some of the trees had to go. i might've taken it a step too far. (chainsaw revs) (tree crashes) (chainsaw continues) (daughter screams) let's pretend for a second that you didn't let down your entire family. what would that reality look like? well i guess i would've gotten us xfinity... and we'd have a better view. do you need mulch? welcome back, republican what, we have a ton of mulch.

presidential hopefuls around desantis continues to trail far behind donald trump in national polls. the latest statistics from fivethirtyeight show that trump leads desantis by nearly 30 percentage points. an average he has more or less maintained over the last few months including from two separate indictments. the top spokesperson for the main super pac supporting descent to steve cortez says last week, quote, right now in national polls we are way behind. i will be the first to admit that. as the new york times notes, it was an admission notably at odds with the confidence that the governors advise usually projecting public. desantis's argument is electability, said sarah longwell. and republican strategist who holds regular focus groups on gop voters. but he is undermining the electability argument by running to trump's right. he is alienating college educated suburban voters, who want to move past trump as well as the independents that he would need to beat mr. biden in a general election.

our panel is still with us. daniel, we will start with this. why are into the right? >> because the only place that desantis knows where to go. i mean, he has been using the state of florida as a petri dish for the republican party, testing out some of their most cruel policies. right? you have the attacks on the lgbtq community, specifically trans people. you have the attacks on history and the erasure of black culture and any experience that does not center white since heterosexual men. you see what ron desantis is doing, by what is happening in florida. and what the voters need to ask themselves is do you want to the rest of the country to look like the state of florida? where you are seeing businesses as well as workers flee because they don't want to work in this oppressive hostile environment that he is creating. that and, get this, ron desantis doesn't have the charisma of donald trump. we can see a lot of things about donald trump, and i do on a regular basis. but the fact is that ron desantis cannot hold a candle

to him. because he has no presence in a room. >> so i guess for nan, if we look at this, okay, he has moved to the right, his numbers started high, kind of hopped and jump into the 30s and 40s in some places in the nooks and crannies. and now down by double digits. and at the moment he has got to be deterred about funding. now going to the right and it's not working. do we see him talk a little bit farther to the left and move towards trump? >> richard, i don't think he can. i mean, look, i am not saying this republican primary is over, it is still eight months before the actual voting starts in the iowa caucuses. and then the new hampshire primary. but i have been looking as a pollster at the numbers here, and they are really remarkable. you look back a year ago, donald trump had a 34 point lead over ron desantis. since then desantis won reelection overwhelmingly in florida, has raised tens of millions of dollars, donald

trump has been indicted twice, more indictments to come, today a year later, donald trump has a 32 point lead over ron desantis. so this is the worst-case scenario, where you also look, richard, at the fact that over the last 50 years there has never been anyone on either side of any party that has relinquished the lead is that donald trump currently enjoys over desantis. and has not gone on to become the nominee. it is very difficult to see what or anything that desantis can do to bring this back. rather than trying, you know, what i call the last man standing. maybe if trump is indicted, there are quick trials and he is literally put away, he might call that scenario that allows him to emerge. but under the current circumstances, you are not going to out-trump trump in a personality party. trump. winds >> one of the things you are kind of hinting at here, it's exactly what this candidate is doing, attacking

to the right. and staying on that narrative for a moment, this is to you, danny. i want to turn now to some reporting about how desantis is claiming executive privilege here when it comes to keeping public state records hidden. he is the first florida governor to do so. and can he do this? what might be the next step on this? >> let's take a step back, florida is the gold standard for open records act. it is the sunshine law, as most journalists like you probably know. it's one of the broadest in the country. in florida it's the place to go. if you want open public records. so that desantis has taken this executive privilege to act is inconsistent with the history of florida's open records policy. and desantis's claim of executive privilege has actually been upheld, at least i as a near, standby one court in florida. when asked. and now, even though there are open records laws in florida, there are always exceptions.

for example, a pending criminal prosecution, there might be exceptions i assume four states -- they always rely on exceptions. but a florida governor relying on executive privilege is something that just hasn't happened before. it's something that may have never happened with a florida governor in the past. -- new area of the law. -- different side against the governor until it gets -- presumably by the high court in florida. or the florida legislature decides well, when to shore up any loopholes in our open records law and our sunshine laws. and to make a decision on this executive privilege, yay or nay. >> all right, so that is the narrative, that is the position right now that desantis is not working as we have been talking about. he is trying to out-trump trump legacy with the three of you are seeing in different ways. so daniel, when we look at, this the state level, right? what happens if we see this on a national scale we were to take the, if he were to take

the white house next year. if a former president trump were again to win? >> this is the problem, this is the problem that is going to be left up to the voters to decide. do we want these kinds of devious practices to be a part of our national discourse. is it okay for a president to move in the way that ron desantis is doing in florida where he is hiding public records? what are you hiding from the people? right? that's the question that we know would like to know. and i think it is one that democrats need to have on a regular basis. these are not people that believe in the constitution. they do not believe in public having a voice. they do not believe in public discourse. they do not believe in private industry. being able to do it at once. right? they want to control over everything and to have the ability to hug. the question is why? and that is what democrats are going to continue to ask and need to ask this republican party. >> -- since we are talking about your home state, why? why does he want to hide these

records? what is the outcome? what is the political position? >> because he doesn't want the transparency. he doesn't want the accountability. he doesn't want the exposure that comes from having to operate in the sunshine. you heard danny say earlier, this is a president that republican and democratic governors dating back to when rubin askew made sunshine in florida the law of the state, it has been held up as the best practice. and as denny said, florida is regarded as probably the top state in the country. but for desantis, just like the press, just like the rule of law, just like the political opposition, all of these are deterrence to his pathway to power but he is trying to systematically undue. in the mold, by the way, office teacher and mentor, donald trump. >> for now, staying with you for a second, for the republican party asking all of the gop presidential candidates to sign a loyalty pledge to the eventual nominee in order to

make the primary ballot next march. this is a month after the rnc announced a similar loyalty pledge four presidential hopefuls for the first primary debate. what is the downside to this if you are a candidate? >> well first off, the downside is that donald trump is not going to sign this pledge. so you have the leading contender on the republican side saying, no, i am not signing the paper. the paper doesn't mean much. so i think he is gonna actually make it easier for all of the other candidates to do one of them wants to do, particularly those like lisa hutchinson, chris christie, those that are gonna have real reservations ever saying they are gonna pledged their loyalty to trump. i don't think trump signs the paper, therefore i think it is going to be irrelevant, the florida gop and the party at the national level is going to have to come back and figure what they do next, richard. >> 30 seconds, daniel? >> i mean i think that for now he is absolutely right. donald trump is not gonna sinus, which means that everyone else gets the ability not to sign and follow along in his

footsteps. >> that arrivals what you are saying. danny -- thank you so much, thank you for your time, danny cevallos, stick around, we will be coming back to you later in the hour. for now, we will also speak with you in the next segment. thank you all three. after the break, biden touts his infrastructure winds in the run up to 2024. but will voters buy into bidenomics? that is next. is next so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ ♪ tourists tourists that turn into scientists. tourists taking photos that are analyzed by ai. so researchers can help life underwater flourish. ♪

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under my predecessor, infrastructure became a punchline. every month, anyways, i want to get into it. on my watch we are making infrastructure look a decade has gone by. a decade. >> so this messaging doesn't does it convince voters, because it is not about how well the economy is doing, but how well people feel it is doing. some say. and as political notes, despite low unemployment, i rebounding stock market, and wage growth, voters still limping from inflation aren't exactly happy with biden's economic policies. only a third of those surveyed in a recent ap norc pull in -- leadership in the economy. joining me now is maria teresa kumar, president and ceo of -- an msnbc contributor. alina beverley, former deputy director of african american outreach for obama's campaign in 2008, and fernanda mahdi who is back with us well.

all right, teresa, let's just ask that question does mainstream feel-good then since biden is asking folks essentially to say, hey, you feel good, right? >> i think what we are seeing is an incredible civilization coming out of a pandemic. and the recession that people kept promising, it just hasn't happened. if anything we are seeing wages stabilize, we even see red states stabilize. and eventually, planted this is where most people are getting sick and this is where most people are saying, hey, the economy is not great. eventually we are also gonna see the prices of, food of, milk affects, also come down. so i think what biden is doing is that he's preparing the narrative for next, year he is preparing the groundwork because we have to give it to him, richard, he has been the best president in terms of delivering that we have had a recent history. just one of the packages would have been a signature program. but we are seeing a renaissance of american manufacturing. historic wage increases for blue-collar workers.

and we are also seeing a boost in american energy. and just as importantly, richard, we are also making sure that all of that supply chain that we were dependent on is coming back home and it is creating an important piece for national security as well. so i wouldn't count him out, if anything the fact that he is finally touting and owning as winds, that is what people were criticizing him for last summer. he wasn't owning as, when we were seeing most wins and he was using his cabinet smartly. also demonstrates that he is serious about making sure that everybody understands that that new growth and new bridge that people are gonna be driving on or that new manufacturing jobs that they have is because of biden. and because that person voted. >> so lana, staying on that point for a moment, i guess the biden administration as well as the biden campaign, they are feeling okay about the economy because they are bringing a lot of attention. they are underlining, hey, let's look at this right now. and we are gonna do more. will that be the approach?

>> and, look i don't think they are taking a victory lap. i think that they are explaining that their accomplishments, explaining what finding enough economics is, saying that it is the collapse of the three main initiatives and legislative wins that this administration of that. the inflation reduction act -- all of that is laying the narrative for what will happen in the coming years. and what is happening now. we are seeing job growth and job creation. but investments in smart investments and public infrastructure, investments in workers for next generation jobs, laying the groundwork for small businesses and entrepreneurs. so it is both explaining that the economy is not perfect we have made some significant wins. and laying the vision for the future. >> yes that is tough to do finance that, pragmatism about hey, this could've been much worse. we turn this around, or it has

been better than it could've been. -- for voters that could not accept -- a lot of slides to get that arguing across. so when you look at this message, who? supporters? high-end donors? wall street? who would you say? >> it is definitely for the, voters because the voters still reelect president, biden better comics comes to end. they are certainly democrats want to see that happen. let me just echo some of the calm of the panel gave. there is a tremendous story to tell when it comes to president biden's story chip of the -- we have actually conducted focus groups and polling recently in several battleground states. and richard what we have actually learned is that most. voters, part of the reason they have given president biden's hour mark that are now on the economy is because they had no idea the depth and breadth of what biden economics has done. this, is regardless of whether you are a democrat or a republican, this is the most

successful economic accomplishment in the presidency in over 50 years. what we learned in those books gibson in the polling, project -- when the voters may see the whole story presented, it has in fact the biden infrastructure act. inflation reduction act, the american production plan. all of the elements of the biden economic record, all of a sudden support moves dramatically towards biden. and i think that is why they are starting to do this now, so that by this time next year, a story of the economic accomplishments, it is known by most voters and perceived. >> yes it's the slides, it's the narrative, it's a story, and you are underlining that they are over done in that it takes time you get this across, and you know the way we run conveyance, we don't run with a lot of slides. it is like 30 seconds. how does this administration, this campaign, actually show the good news that they say they have accomplished? >> i think one way they

actually have turned it bidenomics, and now every time someone says oh there is a new road over there is a new factory, it is bidenomics. that is one of the reasons i think they sort of doing that like crafting that message. and, look it is going to take time, because unless there is a infusion of capital coming from federal, government is not gonna happen overnight. it's gonna take almost ten years. that is what into start basically paving the road. but in their effort to ensure that red states purple states and blue states are hearing from his cabinet, what they are also doing is giving a week to all of those republicans that didn't vote for this infrastructure in ruby red states. and reminding them that the recent that blue-collar workers and have competitive wages is because there is a manufacturing company that is coming in, that currently is deciding to leave. and that is because of the biden economics, when it comes to riyadh states what you are gonna see is this opportunity for biden to show the receipt, it has to start now. because one of the things the

democrats a fight hard time doing is slightly different from the republicans, the republicans have different forms of communication that is very a concerted effort. whether we are talking about cable news or online court newsletters, they're all receiving the same message from the republican side. on the democratic side most voters are much more vulcanized in the way they absorb and consume media. so it's one of the reasons they're going to the local level, they are trying to penetrate that news cycle at the local level. so that people really understand that it was biden to give the manager of. look at the label it, now the election is coming up. you will hear, biden on this is the first week we have to try to say. it's a little stiff, we are warming up. but it has been 40 years that we have had any name with the almost on the end. reaganomics and now we are working with bidenomics. so do you, alina, in a way that is a very smart association in

some cases because you are really going down the middle in a way here? >> absolutely. >> before your competitors, your opponents can turn it into a negative? like obama took the negative, they said it is obamacare, a case, that is what we are gonna call it. so this is, elena, what do you think? a nice move elites when it comes to the campaign teams? >> absolutely, i think it is an interesting handy contrast to trickle down economics. and reaganomics. it doesn't roll off the tongue but it is a good way of capturing those sweet investments that have been made all across this country. the department of interior released him up last week that shows we are all of these investments are. we know to the lacrosse the country. and i just want to echo a little bit of what maria teresa says. it is not just biden who is lifting up his message of the economic accomplishments and investments in communities. it is not just cabinet. pop it is also surrogates. the importance of him going on this investing in america tour is not just the narrative, it is also real people who can

stand up with him, like there was a woman in south carolina, miss hicks, who talks about being a technician in this new solar energy plant. they are bringing real, jobs they are affecting real people, she is an african american mother of a young toddler right? she has a real job and that is part of the real economic balance that he is bringing to south carolina and two states across the country with these investments. >> you know, maria teresa, one elena brings out of, i am just thinking of potentially if biden is if he is the nominee and he will be the nominee, if trump is the nominee, how they both do very well on the ground but from different reasons, right? different approaches. trump might be hoping that what might be, and biden could have that element. might be more of we can get this done. i have been through tough stuff. i do lots of tough stuff. i am doing that for a long long time in my life. both personally, economically,

as well as my family. those two up against each other as the republicans try to knock bidenomics, who do you think does better face to face? because that very example that elena brought up is a really good one. i think in 2016 we didn't know what a trump presidency would look like. your opening clip there was biden joking that every single weekend of the trump administration was infrastructure week. he didn't produce any of this. and he didn't produce policies that were fundamentally changing peoples lives so to speak, except if you are wealthy and all of sudden have to pay taxes. well biden has been able to demonstrate that he is a good steward of the voter -- of individuals, week where they are. we can't forget that yes we see wage increases among blue collar workers, but we also all of a sudden have to follow the five dollar insulin for individuals who have diabetes. that is huge. he understands it. the contrast between someone that is basically divisive and

telling people they should be afraid of your neighbor, versus somebody that says, look, not only can we do great things, making those americans, but because we came together we are able to now solve some of our largest problems. people are looking for this opportunity for themselves in for their families to see and build a future together. and i don't see any scenario quite frankly that trump's presence of grievance can compete with someone who have actually been able to demonstrate a new day in america. >> and talk to them about day-to-day economics, that is really on this topic with what they are facing off against each other. fernando, always good to see you. reiteration elena, we will see very soon. next, the battle of the tech, chris elon musk is threatening to sue mark zuckerberg over his new social media app. if that's not enough, a real life cage match might actually be in the works for us. for us so she gets exactly what she wants and only pays for what she needs. she picks her perks and saves on every one. make your move to myplan.

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detonator's charged. 3... 2... 1... >> now to the bad blood between twitter ceo elon musk and meta ceo mark zuckerberg. it could nowo some legal action. their long simmering feud escalate this week when zuckerberg launched his new social media app, threads. the twitter alternative has already got 70 million is not up since wednesday. this comes as you just have become increasingly dissatisfied with twitter since musk took over the puck from lustful and made significant changes that resulted in boycotts and the loss of advertisers. now twitter is threatening to sue meta over its alleged

hiring of, quote, dozens of twitter employees to launch the threads app. it isn't sitting so well with musk, who tweeted, quote, competition is fine, tweeting is not. which is interesting because meta communications director andy stone has denied the claim, saying, quote no one on the threat engineering team is a former twitter employee. that is just not a thing. that is just the legal thing between the two. a literal cage match is also supposedly in the works between the two, if you will, tech boroughs with musk challenging zuckerbeto social media last month. let's bring back elaine, beverley, and denny. denny, let's get into what they are doing legally. a threatening note coming from meta. the response from meta saying, well, we can hire -- we didn't hire your folks to engineering team. where does the stand in terms of -- ? >> ever since the 2014 supreme

ket chorus code alice, it is becoming a large u.s. patent protection to protect against intellectual property in the form of software and code. increasingly, companies have turned to trade secrets. but the challenge with trade secrets is that you have to keep them secret. now the way companies get around this, and while i don't know it to be true, i'm almost certain it is true, companies like meta, companies like ex, they have plenty of language in their employment agreements with people who are development codes, i imagine, that say that this is a product of the company not of yours, no matter what you develop, if you leave us what you created, what you invented stays here at this company. this is standard practice for high-level companies like this. but the challenge here is this. it is reverse engineering. reverse engineering is traditionally thought of as an exception to trade secrets. so in other words, if you get the product, even if it is coated, and it is a lot harder with software in code than it is with, say, a toy or even a

video game console, because you can open this up and look at it. you can't always do that with coat and software. exactly right. so first engineering has been an exception to trade secret law, so if that is the case here, and you notice from the statements, there is no comment one way or the other whether threads his use reverse engineering, i doubt that would come for and say that, but if they had, then that could be a defense to misappropriation of trade secrets. but then you would still have to contend with the contract issues, if, and i say big if, an employee who had, if they had that kind of noncompete or trade secrets language and their contract, if they go somewhere else and then bring that over with him, when they weren't allowed to, you may have a contract claim there. but there are many different layers of potential legal protection here. but then many avenues floor threads to be able to develop something through something like reverse engineering. >> don't worry, elaine, i won't ask you about the legal view on this. but i do want to ask you this.

that is, it does show what they are going back and forth. because we haven't seen an opening in the market of these micro blocks spaces. we haven't. it has been twitter for decades, since the very beginning of the platform. but it does show us, alina, when we have this change in leadership, how users, and basically how society, is looking at an organization top to bottom and your values. i think that's what we're seeing right now. users, 70 million of them have gone, hey, musk, i'm done with you. i want to try this other thing. and we'll go to zuckerberg. >> yeah, they might choose coke in the pepsi cote's challenge. i have friends who are content creators. what they have said to me is that elon musk basically broke twitter by requiring the blue check mark. by allowing pots and throws to take over, but not regulating content anyway. i have been efficient patrols myself. i have looked into moving over

myself. and i think that is one of the benefits of threads right now. it is fundamentally fairly free of the trolls and of the box. at just a question of time, how long it will take for that to take hold of the three diverse. this public fascination with ignorant food but that is happening right now between musk and zuckerberg, does not resonate personally with me. i would rather see both of the platforms more adequately regulated. if the two men want to deal with arab battle -- but personally, and as we move into 2024, the more important thing for me is that both of these platforms be regulated for a hate speech, for trolls, for bots, and importantly for misinformation. >> that is the question, right. quickly to you -- whether threads will be what its users seem to want, more

oversight. >> i think more of a site, but also creating a safe space. what made her so special is that anyone could almost create a hashtag that could break through and create a resounding moment and change the conversation and behavior. all i can think of the hashtag metoo. and you didn't, when must took over, you didn't have a more. because as we are saying, we saw not only bots but we sir and credible amount of promotion. also is for people we didn't to follow. it changes. threads is right now in a real special place. but i have to say elon musk is full of sour grapes. he claims to be a libertarian, but the moment that the free market take hold, he all of a sudden decides he wants to have a beef with zuckerberg by taking him to court. so it seems that he is not quite sure of perhaps where his own political affiliations lot, because he is not happy with the fact that the free market is actually working as a should. >> maria teresa kumar, alaina

beverly, danny cevallos. and thank you all for joining us tonight. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. lila: before i was diagnosed, there was nothing really to worry about. and then when i was diagnosed, there was just such a big weight put on my shoulders. every night, i felt like maybe i won't wake up tomorrow. but there's no way that this is going to win. i'm winning. announcer: st jude children's research hospital works day after day to find cures and save

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msnbc, nbc news studios presents to in a war. oppenheimer and the atomic bomb. this feature documentary examines physicist jay roberts oppenheimer and the women to change the world. how it's changed, him to. >> i remember every second. i have never been so helpless.

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