♪♪ >> this sunday, the outsider. north dakota's govern our doug burgum is outspending his republican presidential rivals after entering the race just four weeks ago. >> i think the president of the united states has a ♪♪ this sunday, the outsider. north dakota's governer doug burgum is outspending his republican presidential rivals after entering the race just four weeks ago. >> i believe that the president of the united states has a defined set of things they're supposed to work on and it's not every culture, every topic.

>> can this little known former software executive break through and win over republican primary voters? >> did you ever do business with donald trump? >> i don't think so. i just think it's been important that you are judged by the company you keep. >> my exclusive interview from fargo. plus, biden's economy. >> bidenomics is just another way of saying restoring the american dream. >> president biden crafts his campaign economic message. >> bidenomics means you pay more for everything in life. >> i can't think of anything more un-american than what we are seeing in biden's economy. >> does biden even need an economic message to win in 2024 or do issues like abortion matter more? i'm ask governor bill murphy. >> and civilian risk. >> the u.s. plans to send cluster munitions to ukraine despite concerns they could kill civilians. why is a weapon banned by over 100 countries the best option now for ukraine.

>> it was a very difficult decision on my part. the ukrainians are running out of ammunition. >> joining me for insight and analysis are, garrett hake, anna nawaz, republican strategist brendan buck and former democratic senator claire mccaskill. welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." ♪♪ >> announcer: from nbc news in washington, the longest running show in television history, this is "meet the press" with chuck todd. and a good sunday morning to all of you out there. with the iowa caucuses just six months away, mark your calendars for january 15th officially, by the way, the two parties are debating what the coming campaign is going to be about and the intensifying culture wars or referendum on the economy. president biden is hoping to claim credit for what is an improving the economy. he's ramping up a messaging tour focusing on the economic agenda

that he is embracing and calling bidenomics. inflation has dropped for 11 straight months for a high of 9.1% in june of last year to 4% this may. unemployment stands at 3.6%. that is near a 50-year low. and 13 million jobs have been added since biden took office. we have completely recovered from the pandemic drop, but the american public is not feeling it. just 34% of americans approve of biden's handling of the economy and a recent a.p. poll released in the end of june and 20% of voters believe the nation is on the right track though voters have not felt good for over a decade. and biden is trying to persuade voters that the economy is better than they think it is. >> guess what? bidenomics is working. >> i'm not here to declare victory on the economy. i'm here to say we have a plan that's turning things around quickly. >> it's about growing the economy from the middle out and the bottom up.

today's job shows that -- i think the jobs report shows the bidenomics is working. >> this is actually a familiar pivot for incoming democratic presidents in the last 20 years. both bill clinton and barack obama had to make the case that their economics -- economic policies were working to a skeptical public as they were vying for a necessary term, and it's a necessary pivot for the biden campaign, but ultimately it could end up being that the culture war issues like abortion that democrats can end up rallying around especially as the republican party continues to focus more cultural issues. >> school bureaucrats do not know better than parents. we have to defeat them from the ground up and let them know that we will not have this indoctrination in there. >> we are going to end men joining women's teams. >> identifying donald trump as really being a pioneer in injecting gender ideology into the mainstream where he was having men compete against women in his beauty pageants.

>> in fact, florida governor ron desantis who is trailing donald trump by 30 points in a primary matchup continues to try to run to the right of trump on these social issues like abortion and lgbtq rights. in fact, this week desantis' rapid response team reposted on twitter attacking trump for formerly expressing support and the video was criticized even by republican and has since been taken down. one candidate who is outspending in iowa and new hampshire is betting that there is a lane for a republican candidate that is solely focused on the economy and national security rather than on what he calls anti-wokeness. on friday i traveled to fargo, north dakota, and i sat down with the governor of north dakota doug burgum. he's a 66-year-old software exec and two-term governor, and he's self-funding. he has signed eight bills into

law that has been billed by his conservative legislature by north dakota ans, but at the same time, he is arguing that republicans will do better in 2024 if they focus solely on pocketbook issues. >> governor burgum, welcome to "meet the press." >> chuck, great to be here, and special gratitude from all of us in north dakota traveling all of the way to fargo. >> we love being here. let me start. every write-up of your candidacy and the focus that you put on your presidential -- on the issues you want to focus on and what the silent majority cares about, every senate seems to end their analysis of your campaign, boy, this is a campaign that would make a lot more sense in the 1990s or in the mitt romney era of the republican party. what say you to that? >> first of all, i would describe them not as silent, but exhausted. there's a broad spectrum of americans that are really frustrated with the discourse

that's happening at the edge, and part of the reason they're frustrated is because there aren't candidates and there aren't choices on the ballot to talk about the things that matter to them, and when the first lady and i are in new hampshire, in iowa, or here in north dakota where we've been leading the last six and a half years, the things people are concerned about, the price of food on the table and the price of gas at the pump, and, you know, you wouldn't think that in north dakota, maybe the national security would be behind the weather and whether it's the price of soybeans and tariffs or whether it's china building spy bases. these three things. the economy, the energy policy and national security are the things that people really care about and they touch every american and they don't just touch republicans. they touch independents and they touch democrats. if we can unleash the best of america and get our economy sprinting instead of crawling, that lifts the boat for

everyone. we are in a cold war with china, and we won't admit it and the way you win is you win it economically. your message makes a lot of sense for the middle of the electoral and you're having to win the nomination first. you have a legislature that the electorate seems to be focused on. how do you -- how do you talk the republican primary voters into your vision? >> well, i think we know a little bit about winning the republican primaries because we've won two here in north dakota in a state that is -- >> an open primary state. in most of these republican contests other than new hampshire, independents and democrats -- >> new hampshire is a very important state. so it is an opportunity here, again, for this exhausted majority to say, look, there are so many people in our country that don't want a rerun at the presidential race of what we had in 2020.

it's not up to the pundits. it's up to the voters. >> how do you explain donald trump's role? >> i would leave that -- there's a whole industry that talks incessantly, nonstop, about these kinds of questions, and you're running to lead this party and in order to become the leader of the party you have to understand yet current leader has this hold on constituents that you want to lead. what's your diagnosis? >> here in north dakota, people who voted for donald trump also voted for us, so we know a lot about donald trump voters, but we also know that republican primary voters, they want to win in 2024, and how we're going to win is we will present ourselves when we get to next january and next february when the voting starts is we have the best chance at beating joe biden. how much should character count when it comes to running for office? >> it should count enormously, particularly when you're talking about the jobs of being a governor or being a president because the executive branch different from the other

branches, if you're a legislator, you put on your jersey, you fight for your side and vote along party lines, and if you don't vote with your party, you vote in peril. the balancing third branch is the one that's supposed to unite the people and pull people together and paint a picture of a powerful, positive future and somehow we've gone astray on that where the presidency has also become hyperpartisan no matter which party is in office? have you ever lied in politics? >> no. >> that you know of? >> you don't believe you've ever lied? >> no. >> you'll be fact checked on that. >> i'm sure. >> you feel like you've always told the truth as you understood it? >> absolutely. that's how i was raised and that's how i've gone forth. >> do you think donald trump's elevation to the presidency is proof that character counts? >> i grew up in a town of 300 people in arthur, north dakota. in a town like that and the

business, my grandparents started was the green elevator business. farmers bring you grain, and the way you take that sample, is it going to be 99% wheat or 1% chaff, or 95% wheat or 5% chaff? >> money in the pocket. >> you build trust in every transaction. when i was about 6 years old, my dad walked me up to the driveway of the elevator and said this is how we take the cleanest possible sample and this is how we get the highest amount of wheat and the least amount of chaff when we take that sample because if we don't, this family will haul their grain six miles down the road to the other community. >> would you ever do business with donald trump? >> i don't think so. >> why? >> i -- i just think that it's been important that you're judged by the company you keep, and i -- >> you just wouldn't do business with him. >> no, i wouldn't. >> i feel like you've signed a lot of bills that your legislature has put on your desk that you're not crazy about, but

you've signed them anyway because you've made the argument they can override my veto. on some things you do choose to veto. i'm trying to figure out and we'll get into this in detail, what's your line when you decide i'll issue this veto, and they'll override he and i want to make a statement versus, i don't like this bill, they're going to override me, so i'm going to let it go. >> well, everyone governor has to deal with the legislature that they've dealt with, and i have 10%, and some of the other party feel the same way the republicans do and it's a uniparty in north dakota. >> do you wish it were more politically diverse? >> well, i think we want to make sure that all voices are heard. ours is 80% men, 20% women. i think you might have different outcomes across all state legislators if you had more women involved and if more youth and age, if people say i'm young, i'm building a family, i can't do it.

the average age is 35, north dakota is 50/50 men and women and that's not our legislature, but that's not the same across the whole country. >> let's take abortion and the six-week ban. a voter wants to understand what your stand is. it doesn't sound like this is the law you would have designed, but it's the law you signed. what is your position on abortion? >> my decision is i support the dobbs decision and a decision that should be left to the states and what will pass in north dakota will not ever pass in california or new york and wouldn't even pass in minnesota. i'm on the record saying i would not sign a federal abortion ban. >> you would not sign any legislation at all whether it's set at 24 weeks or six weeks. >> no, i wouldn't. it should be left to the states. people can say republicans are extreme. i personally think having a late-term abortion, having an abortion one-day before a child

is born is abhorrent to me. some states allow that. i think that's extreme, but states get to decide where they want to fit on that spectrum. >> where are you on this? >> the states created the federal government, not the other way around. >> i understand. where are you at on this? my belief is i think the president of the united states has a defined set of things they have to work on, and these are things that are left to the state. as president, things that they're supposed to focus on, things like the economy and energy policy which is completely tied to national security and part of national security is the border and these are things that the president, president biden has completely abdicated his responsibility on. every state has become a border state. 110,000 overdose deaths in this country again, and that's a statistic, but that's 330 a day. >> let me ask you this. you're a limited government guy, but you're legislating science in this case. are you comfortable with that? you're legislating when a doctor can get involved and when

somebody can get a medical intervention on their own decision. are you comfortable with the government setting this? >> i'm comfortable with those battling happening at the state level because if people don't like them they have an opportunity to get engaged and try to change that. at the federal level, it's not anything that i'm going to be pushing because i believe in freedom and liberty. i believe that if we believe that as a party then we have to think long and hard, if we believe in freedom and liberty then why are we trying to restrict certain things as a party. we should be the freedom and liberty party. >> so you're not going to sign any abortion bills and transgender bills and you'll stay away from any culture issue if elected president? >> any time i -- when i was in the private sector and when i had the tiniest startup and build it up, i then had the opportunity to work at large global companies. any time you're the ceo and you're spending time on something that can be done in a sales office, you know, out on

the front lines dealing with customers, you're not doing your job. you've got to be looking into the future. you need a president that's being challenged on the focuses of the nation, not a president who decided whether or not a book is in the ride section or not in a library in some small town in america, and that's part of what's going wrong. the reason why we have issues with our economy, with our energy policy and with national security that are just rough is because we are somehow through cultural, media or whatever trapping the presidency and expecting them to weigh in on every single thing. it's not the place that a ceo should be spending their time in and it's definitely not the place where the president should be spending his time. >> do you have litmus tests? >> i've had an incredible opportunity as governor to appoint judges, somehow through the fate of baby boomers retiring. i'm the 33rd governor of north

dakota. i just yesterday was working through the decision process for my 18let judge appointment, two of those at the north dakota supreme court, the others were district judges, and we don't have litmus tests. we try to find the people most qualified to do the job, and i think again if there's any kind of litmus test, it's are they going to follow the constitution and the law and not legislate from the bench. >> donald trump outsourced all of his supreme court nominees through the federal society. they don't have the stamp of approval. is that not important to you? >> i've interviewed thousands and thousands of people in my life for jobs, and i think the process of selecting people for a job also depends on the team as well as the individual, and this is -- you know, it's who wins the super bowl, you know? people that win the super bowl are people that have the right team on the field, and if that opportunity comes forward,

that's one of the biggest spochblts of the president, but i think my track record of picking people of high record and high integrity, i've been surrounded by people of exceptional talent, exceptional commitment and exceptional character and i don't think that's going to change whether it's in the administration or cabinet leaders and whether it's appointing federal judges at any level. that's not going to change. >> is there one thing president biden has done that you think is a good thing? >> well, i'm struggling because, again, as a governor, what i've seen in term of the overreach of the federal government is -- and my heart goes out. >> i thought you might say the infrastructure bill since it's

supporting your own state, but i don't know whether you would ascribe that to him. >> nationally, i'm, like, hey, a person that spent time in software and we had tremendous dependence on foreign manufacturers for chips. the chips act started out like a great idea, and as governor, i would say, hey, i'd never comment on a bill until it's on my desk in its final form, and people said, wow, we'll try to get onshoring for critical aspects of what we need for communications, for transportation, for military equipment, and that made a bunch of sense. and then you pile on a bunch of ideology on top of that and say yeah, you can get these are dollars to get onshore here, but you have to use union and you pile your ideology on that. >> two more questions. let's talk about xi. is he a dictator? >> absolutely. >> so you agree with president biden on that one, you'd call him a dictator and china was offended how would you handle this? >> i would call him a brutal dictator. look at the rights record that they have.

>> where do you put vladimir putin? >> i think he's running a large criminal organization, and i think we're seeing the tip of that with the wagner group. it's like we can't think of russia today under putin like a country. >> you see it almost more like a mob? >> absolutely. >> a criminal syndicate works. >> the wagner group was operating 65 shale companies all over the world. they control gold mines down in central africa republic. and when they're helping out in syria, they took over 25% of the oil production in syria. that's a large criminal organization. >> so in the president burgum administration does it support change? >> we have to win the war in ukraine. i mean, that -- >> period. >> period. we have to do that. it's unfortunate that we're even in this spot. i've said many times before i even announced, we wouldn't be in this spot if we hadn't allowed our allies -- and think about all of the americans. we talked earlier. we've both been to normandy.

think about all of the americans that died in world war ii, and we adopted the policy where we're trying to shut down the energy policy and shut down the energy industry so that they can be dependent on russia for oil and gas. >> that's quite the dotted line. you think us shutting down pushed them toward russia. >> they're completely dependent on russian oil and gas. german manufacturing is -- >> they made a choice. the idea that they had no choice -- they had a choice, germany did. >> right, but we had up until 20 -- just recently we had an oil export ban and we had the jones act and the regulation that was completely outdated. if you care about the environment you should want every drop in the united states that's cleaner, safer than anyone else. >> i have more question, but i don't have more time. >> chuck, thank you for being here. >> as you might expect, there's

more to that interview and you is can see the interview, and you can see the entire unedited version of that interview right now on meethepress.com. when we come back, president biden makes his sales pitch on the economy. is bidenomics a winning strategy? i'll ask new jersey's democratic governor phil murphy next. gover.

welcome back. president biden saddled by questions about his age and his ability to do the job for another four years has been sharpening his economic message and he's arguing that the economy is improving. voters just don welcome back. president biden saddled by questions about his age and his ability to do the job for another four years has been sharpening his economic message and he's arguing that the economy is improving. voters just don't realize it. as inflation remains high and voters disapprove of the president's performance on the economy, biden campaign hopes that the strong employment picture and focus on the middle class could break through this voter pessimism about the direction of the country. joining me now is phil murphy of engine. he was, for what it's worth, once considered a potential presidential candidate himself had biden decided not to seek a

second term, and he's a member of the biden/harris campaign advisory board, and there's no more talk of that. governor murphy, welcome back to "meet the press." >> greetings from the jersey shore, chuck. good to be with you. >> let me start with this idea of bidenomics. as you know, the economy doesn't believe that this administration is doing well on the economy. obviously, you believe differently. why do you think voters don't buy into bidenomics yet? >> i think there's a lead lag factor here, chuck. first of all, the facts speak for themselves, $13 million jobs created. i think unemployment below 4% for the longest stretch in 50 years. it's a middle class, middle-out, bottom-up approach. i look back at 40 years ago this summer and even the great communicator himself, ronald reagan was struggling to get the message through that the economy had already begun its recovery in the previous year. ultimately, he went on to a landslide victory the next year. i'm not sure it's going to be a

landslide, but the facts are on the side of the president and this administration, and i think eventually that seeps into the general sense of how the economy is. >> do you think there's pessimism and it's driven by the fact that the most likely voters and the people that pay the most attention are retirees and so the cost-of-living increases impact them more than those that are currently working, not to say this doesn't impact everybody, but in some ways, a retiree is more sensitive to inflation -- inflationary issues than somebody in the working world. and as you know, they're the most likely voter. how do you bridge that divide? >> yeah, that's -- i think your premise is exactly right. in fact, we decide to budget with the massive property tax relief explicitly for seniors and tomorrow i'm going to sign a bunch of bills capping prescription drug prices for

seniors once again. but the facts in the biden administration also speak to the reality that inflation is here, there's no question, but the united states over the past year is the leading deflationary country in the developed world. so i would say help is on the way, and there's an enormous focus, i know, by the president and his team on seniors and affordability as there is here in jersey. >> as you know, the stubborn inflation numbers mean we'll have more interest rate hikes, and before you were in public service you were in the finance world, and you know what this means. a rise in interest rates is going to mean harder to get a car loan -- that is not how you create the conditions to convince people the economy is humming. >> yeah. although i have to say that i'm not sure that the federal reserve has much choice. there's no question. you raise interest rates another 25 or 50 basis points, there's

short-term pain, you're absolutely right, but that short-term pain is very small as compared to if inflation is allowed to re-emerge and stay with us for many years. sadly, that's tough medicine, but we're coming out of a pandemic, all of the extraordinary, unique realities associated with that, and at a certain point in that respect you may have no choice. >> let me ask you about where we're coming in the general election. if this is a referendum, do you think you can -- the democrats can avoid this being a referendum on joe biden's presidency, or do you think that's a good thing if it's a referendum on joe biden's presidency? >> i certainly think it's a good thing if it's based on the track record, which is outstanding. we've talked about the economy. i think that story only gets better. his foreign policy, particularly leading the coalition against this brutal war in aggression by russia, has been a master class.

sadly, i think folks vote more and they vote less on that front, but it's a reality. those are two very powerful engine, and i think when the facts are on your side i would rather be playing that hand than a hand that doesn't have the facts on their side and is making a lot of noise. >> do you believe that donald trump presents the best contrast for joe biden's re-election, or are there other candidates that you think would be easier for joe biden to face? >> i don't know. i think this, chuck. i believe a strong economy and a powerful foreign policy hand and the president has exhibited both and i think that's a winning hand, no matter who they're up against. i'm not suggesting it's a runaway election like it was in 1984, but if you've got two engines reasoning on your side, that to me is a winning hand no matter who you're up against. >> on the supreme court, do you

think it's time for democrats to embrace this idea of changing how the court works, adding justices and term limits or do you try to -- do you try to deal with the system that you have rather than change the system? yeah. as painful as this radical court has been, taking away rights and freedoms, i'm in the camp that you play within the rules, and i have to say that's a tough conclusion given the extremity whether it's lgbtq decisions, abortion, student loans, affirmative action, one gut punch after another, i think you still play within the rules. >> the largest ever transportation grant from the federal government is coming to the tri-state area. $7 billion for this second tunnel, the most trafficked area in the country. this was a new tunnel for trains that was on the books to start being built in 2009. the project began.

chris christie, your predecessor killed it, and decided to say no to it. does this decision reaffirm governor christie's decision at the time, or is this now going to cost new jersey taxpayers more? >> listen, the biggest policy mistake of the past 50 years in new jersey was his decision to cancel the predecessor to this project. this is a game-changer, and this is overwhelmingly supported by federal money. the tunnels that exist were built in 1910. they've been damaged severely during the years. this is two new rail tunnels under the hudson river and it's a game changer for new jersey commuters, but tragically, the project that was canceled by my predecessor would have been opened five years ago, so we're going to get it, but it's sadly later than it should have been. >> and does it cost more money now? >> oh, it definitely costs more money, but we have no choice. this is the most congested --

this is 20% of the american economy rides on these rails, and thousands of come mitres from new jersey go into new york every day. we have no choice. >> governor phil murphy, democrat of new jersey, appreciate you coming on and spending your sunday morning with us. thank you, sir. >> thank you, chuck. the supreme court ruling banning affirmative action in college admissions late last month reversed a precedent that it shaped academia for decades. if my very first sitdown with donald trump in 2015, i asked mr. trump for his take on this policy. his answer might surprise you. take a listen. >> affirmative action, should we keep it, yes or no? >> i'm fine with affirmative action. >> should we expand it or should it be limited? >> well, you have to go free market and capability and you have to do a lot of things, but i'm fine with affirmative action. we've lived with it for a long

time, and i've lived with it and i've had great relationships with a lot of people so i'm fine with it. >> should private companies fire people because they're gay? >> well, it's a big discussion, and i guess it's getting a lot of negative rulings right knew, that whole thing, and i'm willing to go with what the courts are saying. >> and that is you don't think the private companies should be able to do that. >> i don't think it should be a reason, no. i don't think it should be a reason. >> that's nearly eight years ago. when we come back, why republicans are embracing the culture wars over the economy on the campaign trail. the panel is next. the panel is next. [ tires screeching ] director: cut! jordana, easy on the gas. force of habit. i gotta wrap this commercial, i think i'm late on my payment. it's okay, the general gives you a break when you need it. yeah, we let you pick your own due date so you can pay your car insurance when it's best for you. well that's good to know, because this next scene might take a while. [ helicopter and wind noises ] for a great low rate, go with the general.

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i believe in states' rights, and i believe that the president of the united states has a defined set of things they've got to work on and it's not every culture war topic. >> welcome back. the panel is here, a nna >> i believe in states' rights, and i believe that the president of the united states has a defined set of things they've got to work on and it's not every culture war topic. >> welcome back. the panel is here, anna nawaz, co-anchor of pbs hour and our capitol correspondent brandon hake, and claire mccaskill is here. there you go. it's good to see you. >> let me start with you, brendan buck because you heard

what governor burgum said. now let me play this exchange between donald trump and ron desantis. >> desanctous is a global sellout, and karl rove acolyte who is in the pocket of wall street donors at the club for no growth. >> donald trump has spent over $20 million attacking me. that's more than he spent supporting republican candidates in last year's midterm elections. so doug burgum's message just feels like, is that a fish out of water and message compared to what desantis and trump have decided to do? >> desantis' answer was the most washington answer i've ever heard. they're fighting the republican war and that's what we're

watching right now. i talked to republicans, how do we break out of this cycle, we need to put out a 10-point plan and that's really answering the question that nobody's asking and republican voters want to know you're a fighter and they want to know that you're fighting for them and you see that the threat that they see coming from washington and you're going to stay in there with them. >> garrett, your first job was covering mitt romney, and i felt like i was talking to his younger brother, and he had a salt and pepper feel. >> he could be the sixth romney son. >> i don't say that as a criticism. >> no. >> even mitt romney realized a business-only approach isn't going to work and he awkwardly tried to embrace issues. >> and how he should be the economic mr. fix it and how he should engage on other issues and he touched on the key issue. it's not about culture wars. the operative word is the war, the fight. this is trump's superpower, that he has cultivated the right enemies.

he can fight the biden doj. he can fight the left. he can kind of pick the enemy of the moment and make it all about how they are going after him. desantis tries to do that and the idea that trump is the enemy, that's not going to work and trump has spent the last eight years in the public eye cultivating all the correct enemies to republican primary voters, and that's the big reason that he has the lead that he has. >> claire, what if republican primary voters said let's go with someone that did that? >> would he be a stronger candidate than trump, candidly, he probably would because what trump and desantis haven't figured out is they have to fit a general. neither one of those people are growing the number of voters they need to win. >> it's just the opposite. >> it's just the opposite. their sliver is shrinking. the culture wars, i have to tell you, this time around, bring it. i think democrats want to talk about abortion and they want to talk about guns. >> i was just going to say, anna, yes, they did the

messaging, but this felt -- i'm with claire here. i don't think they're going to run on bidenomics, you know? i think they're going to say it. i think they will do it to appease bernie sanders who says you should run on the economy, but i think they'll run on abortion and guns. >> that's a good impression of bernie sanders, by the way. >> thank you. >> i think the economy is a huge part of their message. they need something that tries to capture all of the many things that they've done including the infrastructure act and the inflation reduction act to get it under one big umbrella and white house will tell you it's not that they have to be all the way fixed and they just want it better, but that's a strong message that voters will be voting on. you will see vice president harris talking about voting rights and talking about the issues that we know they've been messaging on cultural, social things and that will be just as big a message for them. >> how would you be handling the economic messaging here because voters don't believe it. what would you be telling people in missouri?

>> well, i think fundamentally voters do understand that we have very, very low unemployment, they see it in their families that everybody has jobs, everybody can get jobs, their jobs are paying slightly better. if i were them, i would not try to sell the whole economic picture. i would talk about what politicians always talk about, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. and with the infrastructure bill, they can do the same thing. jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. so jobs, guns and abortion. >> i want to pivot back to the republican race because we have -- this is the umpteenth week in a row is ron desantis losing and they called it stalling. while ron desantis is acknowledging that he's struggling, but -- you talked about a washington answer before, listen to this answer about rationalizing about what's going on with the campaign. >> i think if you look at the people like the corporate media, who are they going after? who do they not want to be the nominee? they're going after me. who is the president of mexico attacking because he knows we'll

be strong on the border and hold him accountable and the cartels? he's going after me. so i think if you look at all of these people that are responsible for a lot of the ills in our society, they're targeting me as the person they don't want to see as the candidate. >> this feels like an attempt to do what donald trump often does, and that's to be a martyr. >> ron desantis has made a lot of enemies and he's very good at getting people on the left to dislike him. >> he knew how to pick a fight. >> it's something that when you're running for president you need more than that and you need to connect with people, and this is what's missing with ron desantis, and we've seen it with years past, and one of the big of the problems is he's dull. they're seeing him more and more. he doesn't make you feel anything. whatever you think of donald trump, he makes you feel something. ron desantis seems to lack that. >> you know, garrick, he sent

national guard troops to the border, and i think it's a perfunctory thing, and you don't want to be the republican governor who did. >> there's a reason why glenn youngkin voters don't go away. the republican electorate and the donor class who desperately want someone to give credible challenge to donald trump and the theory was that it was going to be ron desantis, if not him, who? is it someone already in the field, or does it expand again? now, it's getting awfully late in the year for something like that to happen, but every bad desantis poll story, every awkward desantis clip on television opens that door a little bit wider for someone else in this theoretical field to say why not me. >> very quickly, you heard phil murphy's answer about the supreme court, as much as he wishes things were differently, he doesn't want to change to go through supreme court reform. i don't think biden does either, but is it going to pressure him? >> that conversation will never go away. the big message right now as

claire said, they have a good message to deliver. unemployment is low and inflation is coming down and still uncomfortably high and the risk for them is that things get worse. this has to be something that continues to get better for the next year. >> and the fed's going to keep tightening and we still don't have enough workers and that both contributes to inflation. up next, the supreme court's ruling on affirmative action and student debt may change the college degree, and there is still some serious decide when it comes to higher education. "data download" is next. educatn "data download" is next.

♪♪ ♪ welcome back. data download time. the supreme court's decision to strike down affirmative action has paved the way for a potentially dramatic change into who gets into coll ege and

♪♪ welcome back. "data download" time. the supreme court's decision to strike down affirmative action has paved the way for a potentially dramatic change into who gets into college and where they go. this is important because the sharp racial and ethnic divides remain around who has a bachelor's degree in the united states today, and those differences have a very real impact on a person's employment and earnings over the rest of their lives, and the number of americans has grown across the board, and the differences across racial and ethnic reports is staggering. let me show you. let me start with asian-americans here. in 1980, 32, nearly 33% of abe asian american his a bachelor's degree or higher and that is 65% today among the wide population. in 1980 it was under 20%. today it's just under 40%, nearly a doubling, a little more than ia doubling and black americans and it was below 10% in 1980.

it is now near 25% in 2021. hispanic-americans just below black americans in 1980 and here just under 20%. so you can see these disparities exist quite a bit. now take a look at it when it comes to earning potential. for folks that have a bachelor's degree among folks ages 18 to 34, here's your average salary, $65,000, and for every bit of education you don't get is every bit of salary you don't get as you can see, an associate's degree, less, high school diploma, less, and so forth, and then you look at it when it comes to employment. look at the unemployment rate over the summer. if you have a bachelor's degree unemployed and you look at those folks with some college at 3%. you have less than a high school diploma, you're at 6% unemployed so it has a huge impact on your ability to get a job. and then there's the college debt issue.

take a look at who has college debt in america. those holding the most among those under the age of 35, black women at over $11,000, and then it's white women and then black men and then white men and then hispanic women and hispanic men. the thing is both of these rulings could have a huge impact on the lack of diversity in colleges and universities over the next generation, and in the next ten years, it's going to be fascinating to see how these numbers have changed. when we come back, they are weapons banned by over 100 countries, so why did president biden decide to send them to ukraine even if it means an increased risk to civilians?

welcome back. president biden did something that has a lot of anti-war activists upset, frankly, has a lot of folks around the world upset. the decision to send over cluster munitions, anna, to the welcome back. president biden did something that has a lot of anti-war activists upset, frankly, has a lot of folks around the world upset. the decision to send over cluster mao anythings, amna, to ukrainians.

first, let me play president biden's rationale for why he went ahead and did something that more than 100 countries have banned the use of, ammunition that 100 countries have banned the use of. >> this is a war related to munitions and they're running out of that ammunition and we're low on it, and so what i finally did is i took the recommendation of the defense department. >> he's giving voice to something that's been a running issue inside the pentagon for the last three months, which is the stockpiles are running down -- >> they are. >> -- around the entire west. >> they are, and it's dangerous because they are burning through the ammunition faster than the u.s., and the alliance can resupply, and it's a must-win war. let's be clear about what these cluster munitions are. they spread a series of so-called bomblets over a huge area. many of them do not detonate among impact and then pose a

severe -- >> almost like land mines. >> exactly. there have been thousands of civilian deaths around the world. the u.s. themselves stopped using them in 2003, by and large, by the way. this speaks to both the desperation on the front in ukraine and it is not going as well as they would like it to, and the military folks i talked to say this could change the direction of the war and they're already using these, and why not give ukraine everything they want, and they did request these and former military folks i talked to said, look, this will be a long and dangerous cleanup after this war. we will deal with this after the fact. >> a few democrats spoke out and sent out because this is uncomfortable with this, and is this somehow going to impact support for the war. the coalition of people in congress and believed the polling is still strongly in favor of giving the ukrainians what they need here and i think to the degree it becomes a political issue, it becomes another example of the biden white house getting dragged and giving the ukrainians what they needed and whether it was tanks, jets or himars.

you know, there's been this sort of element that we will give you what you want only after you really, really beg us for it, and that could have a political impact, and giving ukrainians dangerous weapons that they'll use on their own land to defend their own territory is going to, you know, broadly change the direction of the political debate here. >> claire, are you convinced the next 15 years there will be more books written about biden and nato, and yet it's unlike lie that success in the war accrues to his benefit, but any mistake could become a problem. >> he has shown tremendous strength in terms of unifying nato. he will use his foreign policy chops and his diplomacy skills which are really impressive and

he will smooth this over about these weapons, and i think one thing we have to remember about these weapons first is the democratic arms services committee embraced this. so this will not be a huge schism in the party and second they're asking to use them in their own country. they're not going to use them in another country, and you're not going to punish innocent civilians you're at war against. this is ukraine deciding this is worth the risk to use these munitions to hold onto our country and to save our country. >> brendan, republicans would on the house, the more hawkish ones, hay they not sent it, they would have said, oh, wokeness is somehow hitting the military decisions in a war. >> i think the other important dynamic we have to keep in mind is there will not be support for congress to continue funding this war forever and obviously, ukraine's success relies in large part of the united states footing the bill and we're not seeing a lot of republicans questioning and there will be more money to come and it's not forever and we need to win this war quickly before we run out of support back home. >> before i close, maureen dowd

had a tough piece on joe biden's -- it was about the biden family isn't acknowledging awe of hunter biden's children. seven grandkids, mr. president, not six. i think we all understand the personal challenge and concern and all of these things that the president has here, but his political foes see this and they're trying to exploit. there is no doubt, every day desantis or trump tries to use hunter to beat up biden. how's that world handling it? >> look, i don't think anybody enies the position the president and his family are in on this issue because the family and hunter has become a political liability in a lot of ways. look at the cocaine story from the last week and how many republicans have tried to seize on that. >> cheapness. it's really ugly the way it's been done. >> it's a certainly a tacky play here, but look, this is as

complex as it gets to -- i think all of us here are parents and the idea of trying to balance your family's needs versus your political imperative is just as a ugly and imperative and we'll get down to it. >> this is only the beginning. i have to run. >> this is all we have for today. thank you for watching. we'll be back next week because if it's sunday it's "meet the press." i think the world is changing, and i think there is one thing that comes with age if you're being honest without it your whole life, and this is some wisdom. i think we're on the cusp of being able to make significant positive changes in the world where uniting democracies