together? can nato hang together? can transatlantic unity hang together? every time allies gather, that question gets reupped, and every time, the allies come together and answer it forcefully and vehemently, "yes, we can." >> national security adviser jake sullivan touting the strength and unity of the nato allies as the group's summit gets under way in lithuania. nato's secretary general is already calling this summit historic, following a diplomatic breakthrough. we'll explain that in just a moment. meanwhile, ukraine's president continues to press the alliance for membership and military support. we'll go through his latest demand from nato members. and we'll get a live report from lithuania as president biden prepares for two high-profile meetings on the sidelines there. a lot going on on the world stage this morning. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, july 11th.

along with joe, willie and me, we have pulitzer prize winning columnist and associate editor of "the washington post," eugene robinson. and president emeritus of the council on foreign relations, richard haass, back with us this morning. >> he somehow becomes even more distinguished. >> he does. >> amazing. >> erudite is the word that come comes to mind. >> yes. willie, we'll get to the whistleblower that comer couldn't find, and then must be humiliated, as they found him in the southern district of new york. >> oh boy. oh no. >> a spy or something like that. we'll get to the details in a little bit. seriously, the gang that couldn't shoot straight, they keep getting the political gun, aiming it right at their foot, right? it's absolutely crazy.

willie, last night, of course, midsummer, one of the most fun annual traditions, not joey chestnut eating nathan's hot dog eating contest for the 16th time. 16th time, you have to love the guy. the home run derby last night, how exciting? >> guerrero jr. of the bluejays won the thing. his dad won it, vlad sr., hall of famer, in 2007. first father/son combo ever to do it. really, this was in seattle. the story early on was julio rodriguez of the mariners, hometown guy, set a single round record with 41 home runs. he had a season's worth of home runs in one round. >> wow. >> turned out, he spent all his bullets in the first round and lost in the semifinals to guerrero. this is guerrero still hitting. here's rodriguez. they kept coming. joe, look at the bp. he's not even stepping. he's chucking it right where he wants it, down the heart of the

plate. so that was an amazing display in front of the hometown fans, but he lost to guerrero. we have the all-star game tonight, joe. the yankees' garrett coal get -- gerrit cole getting the start in seattle tonight. >> it'd be great to have a team that had a lot of all-stars like the yankees. >> we don't, actually. >> we don't. >> i think we have kenley, and that's it. anyway, let's get to the news. actually, there's big news, and i want to get the president emeritus of the council of foreign relations talking about this. >> sweetened developments. >> the sweet development. it's hard to overestimate how important that is for nato, and what an extraordinary year this has been for that group's vitality, for the growth. >> and for the world, the safety of the world.

>> yeah, the safety of the world. >> joining us from the site of the nato summit in lithuania, host of "way too early" and white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. jonathan, big takeaways this morning? >> yeah, hello there from vilnius, lovely morning here in lithuania. we should note, there are ukrainian flags everywhere in this city, a city that's completely turned out and shos solidarity with the war effort, the resistance against russia and, of course, here in a former soviet state in the baltics. i'm standing in george w. bush plaza, named after the former president because he gave a speech in 2002 in which he urged lithuania to be admitted to nato. nato transformed then and has done so again. turkish president erdogan has dropped turkey's objections to sweden entering the alliance. it is now a mere formality before sweden does some technical stuff to get finished. here in vilnius, it is mission accomplished already for the alliance.

finland is already in. president biden is going to mark that triumph later this week when he travels to helsinki. today, it is all about sweden and their military being at the alliance, expanding this group that, of course, is the exact opposite of what vladimir putin tried to do when he invaded ukraine, claiming he wanted to diminish nato. instead, nato is only stronger and larger. we will hear from the president later today. the nato summit has indeed kicked off. he's had a couple meetings already. the big one later today, he will meet with turkish president erdogan on the heels of turkey allowing sweden to join nato. >> wow. we'll be watching for that. jonathan, talk a little bit about ukraine in all of this. obviously, sweden moving toward membership is huge news. ukraine, this is a bit of a debate as the nato allies and america especially supports ukraine in their war against

russia. they want membership, as well. >> yeah, and the war is certainly front of mind in lithuania. we're just a few miles from the border of belarus. belarus, of course, a close russian ally. we're just a few hundred miles from both ukraine and russia itself. we've heard from president zelenskyy repeatedly in recent days, pushing the case for ukraine to be admitted to nato. but the president has -- biden himself has said they're not ready just yet. national security adviser jake sullivan, you played a little of him at the top. i was in that briefing this morning, and he reiterated that. first of all, if ukraine were to be admitted to the alliance now, would automatically trigger article v and, therefore, put the whole alliance at war with russia, which they don't want to do. they also feel ukraine has domestic housekeeping steps, some corruption to eliminate before it'd be ready to join nato. so the united states has said no. they do not feel like ukraine is ready. other members of nato want to push that forward on a faster

track. what jake sullivan told us this morning is the hope here in vilnius, it won't be admission for ukraine, but a path could be created, the next steps. maybe not a specific timetable, but the next steps would be laid out to eventually get ukraine in this alliance. it will certainly be the number one talking point at president biden's top meeting tomorrow when he sits down with president zelenskyy here in vilnius. >> we're just hearing that we may hear from president biden and nato secretary genera jens stoltenberg. >> very professional for him no to go to his lithuanian lakehouse and do the hit from there. >> thanks for showing up. >> he's big in lithuania, lemire is. >> they have a lot of property there. >> that'll be august. yeah, that's my august vacation. >> i know where you'll be in

august. jonathan lemire reporting live from the nato summit in lithuania, thank you very much. >> willie, again, it's fascinating. you know our graphics department on "morning joe," willie, one of the most advanced in the world. >> they are. >> they're amazing. 3d maps. >> what are you doing? >> a lot of things moving across. t.j., if we could get the map up, the nato map up, it's really -- >> why? >> look at that. >> i think it's great. >> it's kind of like it is moving toward you, whoa! hold on, hey, wait, what? >> i think it looks fantastic. >> willie, as we look at this 3d rendered map of nato, it is extraordinary to look at. you see basically two blue patches there, one of them being sweden, which is about to go

green, as well. >> wow. >> i know richard can talk about this, but, willie, this is put putin's worst nightmare. the fact the only thing that's not colored in green outside of sweden, which will be soon, is ukraine. i mean, that's the last remaining holdout. the author of this russian tragedy, vladimir putin himself. i mean, just looking at this map explains why this has been such a nightmare for him. >> i mean, finland, sweden, and last week, secretary general stoltenberg said he sees ukraine on a path, not immminently, but on a path to nato membership. as joe says, richard, go back a year and a half, what vladimir putin thought was going to happen, he'd roll into ukraine and raise the russian flag over kyiv, and look what has actually happened. it is extraordinary how he,

vladimir putin, has hastened the nato membership for sweden and finland and rallied the west. we've seen it on display this morning. we'll see it later today. rally the west to be stronger than it ever has been, right on the border of russia. >> the day will come when russians will see vladimir putin as arguably one of the worst, if not the worst leaders in their history. he exposed russian weakness. he then made russia much weaker because of the economic price they've paid, military price they've paid and so forth, and look how he's created thousands of miles of -- i did the math, hopefully i'm right -- of new border with nato. sweden will become the 32nd member of nato. the strategic position of russia is far, farternal problems of r are enormous, and he's not addressing those. again, he will be excoriated ultimately by history. >> what's your sense, richard, of how this went down with turkey, with president erdogan? what did he get?

what did he finally receive that made him say, okay, we're going to clear the path, sweden is in? >> years ago when turkey started buying russian air defense systems, we put on hold american advanced fighter jets. i think those are now going to -- >> f-16s? >> yeah, you'll see a deal there. what erdogan was talking about was getting turkey into the european union. it's not happening anytime soon, it's too big, too difficult given the demographics. turkey will be able to get what it wants on the security front. greece will not be happy with that, but turkey will be happy with that. obviously, this will pave the way for sweden to get into nato. >> gene? >> richard, i'm curious as to how you see this sort of conundrum here about ukraine. on the one hand, president biden, i think, is prudent and right, that you don't admit ukraine to nato right now. it'd put nato in a state of war

with russia. that's something, obviously, we want to avoid. at the same time, we don't want to give vladimir putin a kind of veto against ukraine ever getting into nato and give him an incentive to sort of draw out and prolong the war and say, "we're still at war," even perhaps after the war is over. how do you deal with that sort of paradox? >> you're right, gene, it is a paradox. i think the president was right, if not quite for the reasons he said. it would be premature to let ukraine in, not because their democracy isn't consolidated, but they're at war. we don't want all of nato to be at war with russia. the cost of that, the risk of escalations and nuclear weapons. also, it's really not clear what ukraine would do. would nato will committing to defend? is it 1991 ukraine or 2014 ukraine or ukraine of yesterday? what about when the border changes a couple kilometers tomorrow? i just don't think it is a practical thing. the good news is nato can make a

clear, long-term commitment on economic and a military help, training, equipment, intelligence support for ukraine, which sends the message to vladimir putin that time is not on his side there. plus, nato has something called article iv. article v is the territorial based. nato can make it clear it's committed to ukraine's existence and independence and will do whatever it needs to do to assure that. it is very much what the ukraine has done with israel. last i checked, israel has done pretty well with that kind of an american commitment. i think there's lots of things nato could and should do, short of giving an explicit article v type commitment. that'd come, i think, in the context of a peace, cease-fire, the armistice you have on the korean peninsula. once the territorial outlines are more clear, nato could commit to that. then ukraine can pursue its

territorial goals at the negotiating table. >> richard, you've talked about it, i've talked about it, there is, again -- it doesn't have to be an all or nothing nato membership. we could strike a deal and, of course, nobody will like this, but that's why it's a deal. we could strike a deal with russia, ukraine and china. china can be part of the rebuilding with us. by having china being part of the rebuilding with us, they make some money on the rebuild and also send a very strong message, along with us, almost sort of a post 1945 solution to vladimir putin, that ukraine is now off limits. again, that'll offend, i'm sure, a lot of back benchers. but if the goal is to secure ukraine, if goal is to send a very loud, clear message to russia that they have completely

isolated themselves in the world, then some sort of peace deal like that makes sense. by the way, i think you'd agree with me also, there is no peace deal without china being a part of it, without china leaning on russia, saying, "hey, the gig's up." >> 100%. you know, essentially china needs to say, the no limits relationship we saw 17 months ago, we changed our mind. there now are limits. it's contingent. we already see it, joe. china has reportedly given the russians very tough messages about not using nuclear weapons. hopefully they've given them a tough message about not attacking the nuclear power plant. yeah, i think the day will come when we need to rope china into the diplomacy. it'd be a positive demonstration, a rare one, about what u.s./china relations can accomplish. send a powerful message to vladimir putin about his diplomatic isolation. also, economically, china is in position to put pressure on

russia. i think it's critical. i think, you know, you said treasury secretary yellen in china. you said the secretary of state there -- >> sorry, richard. if we could -- >> it is setting the stage for this. >> richard, we're going to jump in with president biden and jens stoltenberg at the nato summit. >> this summit is already historic because the agreement we have made yesterday will make sweden a full member of nato. that will make our alliance even more capable of defending our allies. at this meeting, we will also send the message to ukraine that we stand by them as long as needed, and also that we agree on the united and positive message on the path forward for ukraine and membership for ukraine.

another major message from this summit will be that we need to invest more in our defense, and we will agree on new investment. 2% for gdp of defense is a minimum. the good news is european allies and canada are stepping up. this year, we have new numbers showing that they have added 8.3% for their defense budgets. this is record high. that demonstrates that allies are delivering on their commitments. once again, mr. president, it's great to have you here at the nato summit. >> it's great to be here and thank you. the press is not all surprised, i've been touting the fact that i think it's really important at this critical moment that you continue to lead nato. you're trusted. no one knows the situation that

we're facing better than you do. and this historic moment, adding finland and sweden to nato, it's consequential. your leadership really matters. we agree on the language that we posed, that you proposed relative to the future of ukraine being able to join nato. and we're looking forward to continue to be united nato. heard me say many times, i still think president putin thinks the way he succeeds is to break nato. not going to do that, especially with you leading it. thank you. >> thank you. >> mr. president, what is your role in getting -- mr. president? mr. president, why weren't you at the signing?

>> all right. joint, brief statement by president biden and nato secretary general jens stoltenberg. president biden especially marking this historic moment with sweden on the way to being a member of nato, calling it really a consequential moment, and says leadership matters. as it pertains to ukraine, he said, "we look toward a continued, united nato," as they deal with the war with russia. >> leadership matters as it pertains to the united states, as well. there you see joe biden walking out once again, and, of course, his critics wondering, you know -- making comments about how he walks. i'm dead serious. making comments about how he walks. finland becomes a member of nato. how he falls off a bike. sweden becomes a member of nato. >> eats an ice cream cone. >> yeah, he eats an ice cream

cone. the united states of america puts together, gene robinson, perhaps, not only the greatest alliance in european history in peacetime, but also around china. i mean, there is a reason. there is a reason president xi has been angry at the united states of america. it's not because we shot down a balloon. it is because we've ramped up pressure on them. joe biden and the biden administration has strengthened our military relationship with japan, with the philippines, with guam, with australia, with south korea. they are getting hemmed in every day, and they don't like it. this is the pivot to asia that george w. bush was going to do. this was the pivot to asia that barack obama was going to do. this was the pivot to asia that donald trump was going to do. this is the pivot to asia that

joe biden, a guy who can't really ride a bike that well, his critics will say, that joe biden had done. again, there's so much fluff, there's so much -- so many points scored on style instead of substance. you just look at the results. look at the results. >> across the board. >> there's just not a comparison to what has happened the past 2 1/2 years, really what happened in the 15 years preceding that. >> absolutely. he just gets stuff done. you talked about asia. this quad group with japan and australia and india and the united states, it's something that china kind of just didn't see coming. it's put them on the back foot. you look at the three-dimensional "morning joe" graphics map of europe and nato,

and the baltic sea, you can now call it the nato sea if you wanted to. i mean, with sweden, you make sweden green, you are essentially encircling the baltic sea which, of course, thanks to peter the great, is russia's great sort of outlet to the atlantic and to the world. there you have it, it is surrounded by nato. it's really an extraordinary piece of state craft and diplomacy that president biden and secretary blinken and secretary austin and his team have put together that make this happen. and happen faster than anybody could imagine. nobody thought nato would emerge

this much stronger from this direct challenge from vladimir putin. he is getting exactly the opposite of what he wanted. you have to credit joe biden's leadership. he is the leader of the free world. >> joe biden's leadership, willie, and an extraordinary team that's around him. add, obviously, jake sullivan to that. jake has been at the center of everything, along with secretary blinken and secretary austin and the entire national security team. >> jake sullivan helping to lead the trip. he spoke a few minutes ago to the press, as a matter of fact. richard, we expect to see president biden meeting with president zelenskyy maybe a little later today. again, just showing physically in this case, standing shoulder to shoulder with him. there is a story of cluster munitions potentially going, the f-16s a few weeks ago. the support is unrelenting up to this point. where does this war stand now,

and what does vladimir putin think as he is watching countries added to nato, watching all these western leaders standing today, gathered in the face of vladimir putin? he sees the united states and the west aren't backing down from their support of ukraine. what does that tell him about where this war is headed? >> right now, here we are, what, month 17 of the war? ukraine launched its so-called counteroffensive, and it is going slowly, in part because you have russian troops heavily dug in. it takes more offense to dislog dislodge defense, so it's a slog. could go on for a while. there could be breakthroughs. we'll see what the effect of cluster munitions are. they could make a difference. my guess is, willie, in a few months, the battlefield will kind of look familiar to what it looks like now. if you are vladimir putin, you want to hang in there. you basically are hoping for a weakening in the west, people calling for an end to the war.

the 2024 american elections are going to be critical. putin seems murky but has shored up his domestic position. we're not sure what is going on there, but my hunch is he is, for the time being, fairly secure. if you're vladimir putin, right now, you win by not losing. you hang in there and see what time delivers for you. ukraine probably feels slightly greater urgency. the key is what happens in vilnius. the messages of long-term support are important, and that sends a message to vladimir putin that the west is not going to fade with time. we circle back to what joe said. does this ultimately -- the chinese who were suffering economically, do they decide the war isn't serving their interests? they want to impress the europeans, that the europeans ought to move closer to china rather than sign up with us on economic sanctions. there's a lot of moving parts, but i don't think the

battlefield is going to be transformed any time soon. all right. still ahead on "morning joe," we're going to speak with national security spokesman john kirby as the nato summit is under way this morning. plus, we'll take a look at why former president donald trump has launched a new attack on iowa's republican governor. also ahead, new polling that shows florida governor ron desantis lagging in the gop presidential primary among voters in his own state. and former new jersey governor and 2024 republican presidential candidate chris christie will be our guest this morning. of course, we're going to be showing you the clips of the russian -- not russian, i'm sorry, that was a freudian slip -- we'll show you a clip of the republican guy who said msnbc should be humiliated or embarrassed or something, because they found, they found -- >> they found him.

>> -- their informant. unfortunately, so did the feds. looks like he might be a russian spy. [ laughter ] >> my lord. >> you can't make this up. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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include potential heart rhythm problems and abnormal movements. it's nice people focus more on me. ask your doctor about #1 prescribed, once-daily ingrezza. learn how you could pay as little as zero dollars at ingrezza.com ♪ ingrezza ♪ beautiful sunshine. haven't seen that in a while. capitol hill gorgeous at 6:31. so, willie, you know, i don't follow news much. >> yeah. >> in my business, you really don't have to. >> he's a little out of it. >> a little out of it. >> sleep line on my face. >> i would call myself -- >> transparency, yeah. >> it's a horrible insults to generalists the world over. i have a couple of things wrong. this so-called whistleblower -- >> everything. >> everything.

-- they have not actually caught the so-called -- >> fugitive. >> -- whistleblower. >> on the run. >> james comer. so he is a fugitive from the law. so they, they have embraced, these house republicans, a fugitive of the law. just because we were going to break and had been talking to russia, i said that he might be a russian spy. no, no, no. no, i'm so sorry. not a russian spy, he may be a -- the republican's great hope, maybe a chinese spy. so he's on the run. he's a fugitive from the law. and the fine people in the southern district of new york think that comer's ace in his pocket that he's going to pull out and show the libs, he is going to own the libs with a

suspected chinese spy fugitive from the law. there you have, willie geist, your 2023 house republican caucus. >> your analysis is correct, though incomplete. he also is accused of being an illegal arms dealer. this oversight committee, led by congressman james comer of kentucky, they have hung their case on this man. charged in the southern district of new york. the u.s. attorney said he engaged in multiple serious schemes. he is a duel israeli-u.s. citizen, head of a think tank in maryland. eight-count indictment against him unsealed yet. -- violated the foreign relations act, making false statements among others. doj stated, quote, the man

subverted laws in the united states to seek to promote chinese policies by acting through a former high-ranking u.s. government official. he acted as a broker in deals for dangerous weapons and iranian oil. >> come on, you're kidding me! luft was initially arrested in february before skipping bail. he skipped bail. he is a fugitive. congressional republicans said they spoke with luft about the business dealers of the biden family. told members of the press he had gone missing. the same lawmakers also have called him, quote, very credible. as recently as friday, republican congressman james comer of kentucky -- as i said he's the chair of the oversight committee -- said this. >> he's very credible, and the people on msnbc who made fun of me when i said that we had an informant that was missing, they should feel like fools right now. >> they are fools. >> this is their worst nightmare because, again, this is a credible witness that the fbi

sent several agents to interview. >> to recap, joe, this man, gal luft -- >> hold on. okay, go ahead. go ahead. i have a checklist. go ahead. >> he's your man. congressman comer, head of oversight, senator ron johnson has been on tv talking about this man, as well, they've hung their case. they said he can tell the story of the alleged biden crime family doing business with china, et cetera. >> yes. >> he is accused an eight-count indictment of being an illegal arms broker, among other things -- >> hold on, illegal arms dealer, okay. >> unregistered agent for the chinese government. >> working with the chinese illegally, okay. i got that one. >> helping china to get iranian oil in violation of u.s. sanctions. >> okay. hold on, i've got to put down,

illegally -- hold on -- illegally smuggling, smuggling iranian oil for the chinese communist -- there's a lot to write here -- chinese communist party. okay, so wait, hold on a second, this is a lot, and i'm a simple country lawyer. so we got the chinese espionage. we've got the illegal arms dealer. we have got him illegally smuggling i iranian oil for th chinese communist party. >> to put the period at the end of the sentence, then lying to agents about it. >> he's on the run. >> fugitive from the u.s. government. >> all right. i've got to say -- >> wow. >> -- comer is right. i feel like a fool. i mean, seriously, how could we have doubted this guy? >> comer simpson. >> eugene, eugene, he lied to

the feds about engaging in, i think it is chinese espionage. he lied about being an arms dealer. he lied about illegally smuggling iranian oil to the chinese communist party. he is a fugitive on the run from the law. this comer guy says he should feel foolish because they have a real credible witness here. >> oh, the shame. oh, the humanity. how could we have doubted? how could we have doubted congressman comer? as always, he comes through with the chinese spy, smuggler, arms dealer that we've all been waiting to hear from, if we could ever find him. you know, they flew him to brussels to interview him. probably flew to brussels to try to arrest him and drag him down for his various crimes.

this is -- comer has proven, even in the constellation of crazy house republicans trying to investigate and pin something on the bidens, something, anything, comer has actually distinguished himself as, i think, the worst at this point. he is really incompetent at this. they should have picked somebody else. >> no doubt about it. richard haass, this is -- every time i bring this up, people that are actually inside the bubble, in this right-wing house republican bubble, are in this ecosystem that thinks hunter biden is going to unlock every door politically there is to unlock. i keep saying, guys, you keep shooting yourselves in the foot. all these investigations, not just hunter biden, but that poor

durham fella that tried to indict people and prove that the fbi somehow was, you know -- hillary and the fbi were spying on donald trump. juries laughed him out of the courtroom two times. he proves absolutely nothing. you then move on. there were a couple hacks that tried to protect and defend him, but they can't. then comer and hunter biden's laptop, hunter biden's this, hunter biden's that. i'm dead serious here, they keep making fools of themselves. comer, i mean, at some point, comer, who was once a fairly respected member of congress if i'm not mistaken, from what i've read, at some point, you have to quit while you're behind. they just can't do it. now, he's gone on tv bragging

about a guy who is a fugitive from the law. he helped smuggle iranian oil to the chinese communist party. is an illegal arms dealer and is suspected of illegally cooperating with the chinese. i don't know if he is a chinese spy, if it is espionage. i don't know exactly how the feds are going to term that eventually, but he is a fugitive on the run from the law for helping the chinese, helping the iranians, smuggling iranian oil to the chinese communist party. again, quit while you're behind, james comer and republican party. start talking about inflation. >> so much of this, the alternative is defending donald trump and the various charges against him. on the old add damage that, you know, the best defense is a good offense, you have this serially

unsuccessful attempt to play offense against president biden, hunter biden and all that. i think, joe, what this shows is that a lot of these republicans realize there's no defense of the former president. they're trying to distract and change the story. the good news is i think we could get a remake, joe, of "the fugitive." we could have a whole new series, a whole new movie based upon this character. just bring it up to date, the 2023 version of "the fugitive." >> harrison ford remade "indiana jones." why not "the fugitive"? you'll be not surprised to learn, joe and mika, the response from republicans in the last couple of days has been that the justice department is targeting gal luft. the justice department is weaponized. they're trying to silence this man by pursuing these charges against him because he has all the answers to the alleged biden crime family. >> well, of course. this is, again, willie, they

attacked the fbi for getting the secrets back in safe holding. they attacked the fbi for trying to get secret iranian war plans back into a safe holding place. it's the latest example. i hope they all -- i mean, i hope all of these people do expose themselves in supporting -- if this is who they really are, if they want to support a guy who was illegally dealing with china and illegally smuggling iranian oil, illegally being an arms dealer, i think that exposes them even more for who they are. people who don't give a damn about this country, don't give a damn about law enforcement. people who are going to attack law enforcement when they try to do their jobs. it's really -- i mean, if there is -- if there is a remake of "the fugitive," who was it, tommy lee jones? >> oh yeah. >> who was the guy?

yeah, at the end of this, you're going to have harrison ford playing guy luft, is that his name? >> gal. >> gal luft. >> they'll be in the water drain, and tommy lee jones will say -- harrison ford is going to say, "let me go," and gal luft will say, "you're guilty." harrison ford is going to go, "yeah, i am." >> okay. >> it's just -- it's really bad. >> while we're at it -- the federal prosecutor -- >> did you know -- >> oh, my god. >> -- this guy smuggled iranian oil illegally for the chinese communist party? did you know that? >> i didn't. >> james comer is on his side. did you know that this guy actually, like, worked with the chinese communist government, and james comer likes this guy. this guy is an illegal arms

dealer, and james comer is proud to be on his side. i'm telling you, this is a whole new day for the republican party. >> it is. >> the republican party is embracing, and i can't say it enough, people who illegally smuggle iranian oil to the chinese communist party. >> bless your heart. >> strike up the band, mabel, it'll be a hell of a 2024. go ahead, honey. >> help me. okay, the prosecutor who -- >> this is bad for the bidens. >> he is disputing claims made by an irs whistleblower. >> what? >> and republican lawmakers. >> wait, what? >> delaware u.s. attorney david weis says -- >> this guy was appointed by trump, right? trump guy. >> he had the clearance to bring charges against the president's son in any jurisdiction.

the whistleblower claimed weis was unable to do so from a letter by u.s. attorneys. weis wrote he never asked to be named as a special counsel as republican lawmakers claimed. he said he did seek status as a special attorney, which would give him authority to file charges anywhere without permission of the u.s. attorney in that district. >> willie, as greek philosophy aristotle once said, now they're just making stuff up. i cleaned it up for the kids today. >> thank you. >> they're making all the wild charges up, they blow up in their faces, and they wonder why they keep losing elections. >> well, it resonates in a certain media ecosystem, as you said a minute ago. this is what people are talking about on certain tv shows, certain websites, and it does

have the feeling of an important investigation to certain people. when you get out to the country and walk around, do feel like this is significant? they understand if hunter biden did something wrong, committed a crime, he ought to be charged. the he did something serious enough, he ought to go to jail, period. >> exactly. >> also, joe, the republicans have to make up their mind. is joe biden a dottering old man who can't find the door after a press conference, or is he the mastermind of an international criminal scheme that involves china, involves russia and ukraine and all these different places, where he is enriching himself and his family? it kind of can't be both. >> can't have both. >> this is a situation where two things can't be true at the same time. there's no dialectical here. >> no. >> richard haass, thank you very much. i'm not sure that was worth your while, but thanks for coming on. >> richard, do you have any closing thoughts as president

emeritus on council of foreign relations. >> joe, short answer is no. i look forward to the game tonight. good to see the yankees -- >> he wants to get out of here. >> american league east, just saying, all five teams above .500 at the all-star break. impressive. >> okay. >> pretty good. >> there we go. thank you, richard. >> i kind of expected more from that emeritus status. >> after this? he wants to go. coming up, hundreds of military promotions, including high-ranking officials, are on hold because of republican senator tommy tuberville of alabama. we'll explain why he is blocking service members from moving up in the ranks. >> causing real problems by the way. real problems for america's national security. i hope he's proud of himself. former trump adviser steve bannon is on the hook for a $500,000 bill. >> he bought a lot of shirts. he wears three a day.

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52 past the hour. republican senator tommy tuberville of alabama vowed to continue blocking the approval of military promotions due to the pentagon's abortion policy. tuberville's block ablockade isg hundreds from their promotions, including high-ranking officials, such as the leader of the united states marine corps, which is now without a permanen. the alabama senator is using a procedure to slow approvals that

are usually completed with a unanimous consent vote. the senator is pushing for the defense department to scrap its policy that gives time off and travel reimbursements to members who travel out of state for abortion services. tuberville single-handedly, the stoppage is coming at a time when more than half of the current joint chiefs are expected to step down from their posts in the next few months without a successor in place. take a listen to what the senator said yesterday about his actions. >> i've got a great deal of admiration for general smith. earlier today, general smith became the acting head of the marine corps. he is doing the same exact job which he has been doing for several years. the only difference is, today, he is an acting official. this has minimal effect on the

ability to lead. there may be a delay in his planning guidance and, yet, he cannot move into the residence, but there is little doubt about general smith's ability to lead effectively. general smith assured me that he was committed to keeping politics out of the military. and for me to vote for somebody, that is exactly what i'm looking for. keep politics out of the military. >> i mean, this is so shocking to me. mike barnicle, i've been hearing republicans whine about how much they love russia and how the russian military is manly and america's military is not because they're too woke. they're too concerned about social policy issues invading the military's readiness. that is all a lie. of course, they project, or maybe it's confession, because

it is exactly what tommy tuberville is doing here. the thought that he is bringing a -- he is being a cultural warrior and bringing a wedge issue into the united states marine corps to stop the marines, for the first time in 150 years, from having a -- i don't believe that the senate, who are supposed to be the sane people, i can't believe they're sitting by and letting this guy continue to do this. >> joe, you know this better than anybody, this is the 2023 version of the republican party. let's take on the intelligence community of the united states of america. let's take on the fbi, the legal

arm of the justice department. let's take on the military. that's what tommy tuberville is doing. he can't pronounce the words. as you indicated, he said the commandments house. it's the ccomendant's house. in over 150 years, the united states marine corps doesn't have one. he retires in a couple weeks. because tuberville thinks he knows more than anybody else about the defense of the united states of america, he's held up line promotions for a couple months and probably will continue to do it. who in the republican party is really speaking out about it? >> mike, he is not saying he knows more about defense. he is saying he doesn't want women to do what is legal, to

legally travel to another state. he is stopping the united states marine corps from having a commandant for the first time in 150 years. not for anything that has to do with america's readiness, nothing with protecting and defending the united states of america. no, he is stopping the united states marine corps from having a commandant for the first time in 150 years because he doesn't want to allow women -- >> to get health care. >> -- to do what is legal, and that is to go to a state where they can get an abortion if that's what they choose to get. >> or medically need for their lives. >> if they need to do it for medical reasons. it is the united states marine corps that he is declaring war against. >> well, it's not just the marine corps, though, joe. there were hundreds of line offices who were due promotions, and they can't get those

promotions because of tommy tuberville. this is a guy who represents an honorable, noble state who committed over the years, over the decades, hundreds of young people to the military in defense of this country. he alone is standing against all the progress because, as you said, the ability of women to travel to other states to maintain their health. that's what he is doing. where are the republican voices in the united states senate speaking out loudly against this? >> it is time. >> they might be talking to him off the floor. where are they talking out loudly and publicly about this obscenity? >> let's put the question to capitol hill correspondent ali vitali who has been covering this story. ali, good morning. so where is this going? where does it end? he is not going to get what we wants out of it. defense department isn't going to change its policy on this, so how does senator tuberville end this charade? >> it has been going on for months at this point, and that is the question we've been asking. i think he's gone to the floor,

he said, 11 times as of yesterday to reiterate the fact he is not backing down on this. i think y'all are asking the right question in terms of where are the republicans on this? i have spoken to republican lawmakers who say they vehemently disagree with what he is doing, but the reality of the senate is, he can do this. one senator can hold up anything that is trying to be done by unanimous consent. that is the way this place works. it is built on rationality prevailing. that's not what's happening here, and we are watching the ways the processes break down in this new, current version of 2023 politics, especially on the republican side. i think the other piece of this, too, that i've been reminded of consistently as i've been reporting on this, and democratic senator shaheen and patty murray reminded me of this a few weeks ago when we did a story for your show to mark the dobbs anniversary. this is not a question of simply just accessing health care, but also a question of military readiness from the perspective of, there are recruitment

problems within the u.s. military. the metrics and milestones for recruitment numbers are being v would-be veterans or military members, don't choose where they are stationed. they could be in a state like texas that is restricted or could be stationed in a state like california with less restrictions. it becomes more difficult to recruit people, specifically women, to the military if you're telling them they're not in charge of where they can go. >> exactly. >> they're also not going to be in charge of their own health care in different states, whether they can get there. this is military readiness at its finest, and that is what military officials said in response to this, as well. >> i've heard from ceos about decisions not to move to certain states that have more restrictive abortion laws. >> exactly. >> now, the bigger problem for america, as you said, it becomes a readiness problem. if you are a woman who wants to get involved in the united states military, if you are a

husband whose wife doesn't want to travel to a state that bans abortions or has a six-week ban on abortion and starts to hear about this sort of hostility towards women making health care choices, but, it becomes a readiness problem, mika. >> does tommy tuberville, does he not want women to join the military? >> it could be. >> or does he not want women who have pregnancies in the military, and that would be from men, okay, that's how it happens, tommy, and they have some problems, they need miff -- for whatever reason, they need to get an abortion, and you want them to be denied. what woman would actually want to join the military in an environment like that, a misogynistic, cruel environment? >> maybe that's it. >> maybe that is the point,

senator. >> you know, there have been people on the right that have fought women being involved in the military for years. maybe this is a workaround for tommy tuberville to do what he can to get women out of the military. >> totally. >> ali, what can chuck schumer do? obviously, if you're asking for unanimous consent, he can stop this, but can't chuck schumer take this to the floor and demand an up or down vote and get the commandant through? >> that could be one of the methods he could try, but, again, there's a lot of other procedural rules that govern this. typically, the way to do the most quickly, frankly, it'd take days and days to do it the way you're talking about. that's why this has been done like a non-issue, that all 100 senators say, yeah, we'll do the promotions. speed is a pretty big function of this. to just put something on the floor for an up or down vote triggers all these different hours of having to wait, having to debate.

yeah, you could do that, but, like, it's not the right way of getting it done. there are hundreds of promotions in a backlog, and it'd take too long. all the months of time that elapsed at this point, you'd be doing work on the senate floor for just days and days on end. >> nbc's ali vitali, thank you so much. greatly appreciate the incite. mike barnicle, i think i come from another era, from another age. i'm a big believer, if somebody is going to try to do this, if somebody is going to try to impact the readiness of the united states of america, you take it to the floor. you put tommy tuberville's face on a poster, put it on the senate floor, and tell people -- i'd do it tomorrow. actually, i'd suspend all business. >> as soon as possible. >> suspend all business.

i'd put a picture of tuberville up. all right, guys, gals, we are going to stay here, i don't care, days, weeks, months. we're not going out of session. you'll be here night and day, and i'll make sure you're called in at midnight, at 1:00 a.m., 2:00 a.m., at 3:00 a.m., at 4:00 a.m., 5:00 a.m. every time you come to this floor, you'll have tommy tuberville to thank for that. because he is screwing with the readiness of the united states marine corps. >> among other things. >> and the united states armed forces over a social battle to gain some political points with his base at home. because he doesn't want women to do what they can do legally. >> joe, the rules of the united states senate were outlined a couple hundred years ago. not many have been changed in the history of the united states

senate. it's interesting to look how they operate, but in cases like this, they have to be literally dragged into the 21st century. >> drag 'em down. >> it is time someone, maybe chuck schumer, maybe in concert with mcconnell, should drag them into the 21st century and do something with a guy who ought to be locked in his office because he is a public danger. >> certainly, i know the united states marine corps right now is wondering what the hell is going on. >> i kntd. >> again, it's probably something mitch mcconnell is equally shocked with. it'd be great for mitch mcconnell and chuck schumer to say, "we're staying on the floor until we go through the promotions, and we're not going to let one senator screw with the readiness of the united states armed forces." it is five minutes past the top of the hour. earlier this morning, our top story, president biden and nato

eegs secretary general, jens stoltenberg, met and highlighted the deal to advance sweden's membership into nato, and the work being done to help support ukraine. >> this summit, this is already historic because of the agreement we made yesterday will make sweden a full member of nato. that will make our alliance even more capable of defending our allies. at this meeting, we will also send a message to ukraine that we stand by them as long as needed, also that we agree on the united and positive message on the path forward for ukraine. >> this is a historic moment, adding finland and sweden to nato. it's consequential.

your leadership really matters. my american press heard me say many times, i still think that president putin thinks the way he succeeds is to break nato. not going to do that, especially with you leading. so thank you to be willing to do it. thank you, thank you. >> thank you. >> let's bring into the conversation national security counsel coordinator for strategic communications at the white house, retired rear admiral john kirby. admiral kirby, thanks for being with us this morning. what is the practical impact of having sweden in nato, and what role did president biden have in getting it done? >> well, the immediate, practical impact, willie, is going to be this is a capable military. strong, modern, technologically agile and adept. it's a military that we in the united states know how to operate and train with. they're going to bring to the alliance very, very short order a lot of significant capability to help bolster nato's eastern flank. it's a big development. >> admiral, cluster bombs, a

controversial topic. did the ukrainians ask specifically for cluster weapons, or are you emptying out the ordinance to get them to ukraine? >> mike, the reason we're doing this is to bridge to a higher rate of capacity for us to produce unitary, normal, conventional artillery shells. this is a gunfight, quite literally, and they are trying to work through minefields while they are being fired at. artillery is something they're going through many thousand rounds a day of these artillery shells. the cluster munitions will give them a bridging capability while we get our own production ramped up. it is something that certainly the ukrainians -- you asked if they asked for it -- they've certainly being using cluster munitions throughout the war. they've gotten them from other sources, not from the united states, because it was a difficult decision president biden had to make. it came down to keeping them in the fight and not allowing them to go defenseless in the middle of a gunfight. >> i'm sure the president was aware or made aware of the fact that the shelf life of cluster

weapons is a long, long time. and the dangers posed to the public five, ten years from now about cluster weapons, the impediments left in the ground, particles left in the ground. >> sure. >> that's a tough decision to make, no? >> very tough. the president said so himself. this was not an easy decision and not something he did without careful thought. we'd make two points here to yours, mike. one is the dud rate, the failure rate of the cluster munitions that we're going to be providing is exceedingly low, less than 2.5%. by comparison, just to make the point, the russian dud rate of the cluster munitions they're using in ukraine is about 30% to 40%. far more duds on the battlefield. number two, we're going to work with the ukrainians, and we are already, but we're certainly working with them through and past this war after its over, to work on de-mining effort, to make it as safe as possible. the last thing i'd say, mike, is

that, while yes, there is an inherent, potential danger to civilians because of the duds, the bomblets that didn't explode, we can all agree the risk to ukrainian civilians is far greater if the ukrainian counteroffensive fails, if they run out of artillery shells, if they can't defend their own territory. they are being killed every day by iranian drones and cruise missiles and, yes, cluster musicians the russians are using indiscriminately. the ukrainians are using these to win back their sovereignty, to defend their territorial. >> let me ask you, admiral, let's move from europe to china. can you give me any progress updates on the chinese military communicating with the american military? obviously, two most important militarily, economically, diplomatically, two most

important countries on the planet right now. their militaries have to talk to each other. the chinese still aren't. any updates? are we moving any closer after the treasury secretary went to china? >> i wish i could have good news on that front. i can't. the military to military lines of communication are still not open. it was never the purpose of secretary yellen's trip to open that up, but we hope now that we've had secretary blinken and secretary yellen, who both had good trips, secretary yellen in particular had some good exchanges with the chinese on economic issues and trade issues, that we can get there hopefully soon. to your larger point, joe, this is a time of great tension in the relationship, particularly on the security front between our militaries in the indo-pacific, the south china sea, the taiwan strait. this is the time when you want to have open lines of communication between the two militaries. we're going to keep working at that. >> help us understand. they'll talk to secretary of

state blinken. they'll talk to treasury secretary yellen. they'll talk to bill gates. they'll talk to any businessperson that has 15 cents in their pocket and wants to come to china and do business with them, but they won't actually communicate with our military? why? >> well, they would tell you, and i'm not trying to take their side of it, they would tell you it is the united states' activity in supporting taiwan's self-defense, our activity in freedom of navigation operations in international waters such as the east and south china seas that are aggravating the situation. of course, we see it quite differently. they have been aggressive. they have been coercive. they are intimidating neighbors. they're making false maritime and air claims to territory and air space that don't belong to them. they are trying to expand their influence and push the united states out of the western pacific, ask that's not going to happen. the president has been clear about that. we are a pacific power, and we are going to be there to stay. we are going to continue to support our allies and partners there.

>>. >> so they won't do that. let me ask you something, though. with all the talk, all the back and forth with china, all the flexing and the whining about speakers of the house talking to leaders of taiwan, something that has gone on for years now, has the united states changed its china policy? is it not identical to what it's been for, well, i guess since, well, we normalized relations in 1979 at the brzezinski farmhouse in virginia? nothing has changed, has it? >> no sir, no sir. since well before even you were a member of congress, joe, there's no change to our one china policy. we don't support independence for taiwan. in accordance with the taiwan relations act and the law, we support taiwan's self-defense. we are going to continue to provide arms sales so they can

defend themselves. we're not supporting any change to the status quo that could be done unilaterally, by force or by any side. nothing has changed. because nothing has changed about the one china policy, there should be no reason for conflict or tension. the chinese have no reason to be upset with the support of taiwan when it is something we've been doing for roughly 50 years now. >> admiral, does the administration have anything to say about senator tommy tuberville holding up military promotions in really historic fashion, because of his position on abortion? >> yeah, yeah. i think it is safe to say we have something to say about that, you bet. you've been talking this morning about the commandcommandant of marine corps. i know eric smith, great officer, terrific brain, and he'll do a great job in acting capacity, but he belongs as the

commandant of the marine corps. also testifying, brown, the next nominee to be the joint chiefs of staff, likely he won't be able to get confirmed. you're talking about several hundred officers that can't move on to the next job or the next rank, which is important. in some cases, you'll have acting officers in charge of fleets or major commands that aren't, you know, at the appropriate rank to have that job. when you're in acting capacity, while you can do many of the things that a person who is confirmed can do, some of your authorities are limited. some of your ability to maneuver money around and program things are going to be affected by the fact you're not senate confirmed. let alone the disruption to families all the way down the chain of command by these lack of moves. the ironic thing for me is, he claims he is trying to keep the politics out of the military. his very action is politicizing the military because he is making it about the pentagon's policy rules for reproductive

care for our women, women service members. i had a chance about two weeks ago to meet with some military spouses here at the white house. to a person, they told me this exactly why they're advising their spouses either to leave the military or not to take assignments in some of these states where they can't guarantee that they're going to get the reproductive care they deserve. >> all because of one, again, one united states senator, tommy tuberville. mitch mcconnell disagrees with the move, but he has to take it up with tuberville because he does have the power. admiral kirby, president zelenskyy of ukraine criticized nato's uncertainty and weakness over his country's possible membership in nato. he says it needs to happen. he said this emboldens russia to not include ukraine in nato. what's your reaction to that? >> look, we've already said that ukraine's place in the future is going to be in the alliance at

some point. they've got reforms they have to work out. rule of law, good governance, political reforms that need to be done, and they're at war right now. the focus for president biden is making sure they have what they need to be successful on the battlefield, including, as we've been talking about with mike earlier, the cluster munitions. we're trying to make sure they can succeed on the battlefield so that they can find a piece and recover their territorial integrity. eventually, yes, nato will be in the forefront for them, but now is not the time for that. even now at vilnius, the ukrainians will find the alliance united in supporting two things. one, security commitments for them in the long term. when the war is over, continuing to defend themselves, and two, providing a path forward so they can eventually get nato membership. >> national security council coordinator for strategic communications at the white house, retired rear admiral john kirby. thank you so much for coming on this morning. great to see you and hear from

you. >> great to be with you guys. >> take care. ahead on "morning joe," former new jersey governor and republican white house hopeful, chris christie joins the conversation next. we have a lot to talk about with him. plus, florida governor ron desantis gets asked about his strategy for beating donald trump and goes after the media instead. also ahead, the latest on the severe weather hitting much of the east coast and the scorching temperatures across the south. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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in places like iowa, new hampshire, south carolina, that you need to actually be able to win these early contests. we're going to continue doing that. we got a lot of work, but we've had very, very favorable response, and we're going to keep building off that momentum. at the end of the day, i think the fact that i'm the one that's targeted by the media, by the left, even by the president of mexico, is because people know that i will beat biden, and they know i will actually deliver on all these issues and beat the democrats at the border, beat them on things like esg, beat them on things like crime, and they don't want to see that. so we're going to keep telling the truth, and i think you're going to see good results. >> not the media that has him down 30 points to trump in the polls. governor desantis blaming the media for the lagging poll numbers during an interview on "fox business news" yesterday. joining us now, former governor of the great state of new jersey, presidential candidate, chris christie. great to have you on the show. >> good to see you, willie. >> you're going after trump in a

way no one else has, people like what they hear, but they wonder, what is the path to the nomination? how are you looking at this as you build slowly and, first of all, have to qualify to get to the first debate? are you confident you'll be on the stage? >> yes, i'm confident we'll be there. i think we'll have good announcements this week in that regard. look, we all got fooled eight years ago into this idea -- by all of us, me, marco rubio, jeb bush, john kasich -- that there was was establishment lane and then a more progressive lane. somehow, like the ncaa tournament, willie, we'd advance in the brackets to face the winners. by the time we were done fighting with each other, donald trump had won the nomination. it was over. to me, there's only one lane. donald trump is at the head of that lane. if you want to win, you have to go through him. so, you know, i think all of the other folks in this race, some of whom i have great respect for, some less respect for, the fact is if they think by standing there and ignoring

donald trump, that they're going to beat him, i could tell them from experience eight years ago, not going to happen. you have to beat the man to be the man, willie. he's the man who is ahead in the polls, and you need to take him on. answers like governor desantis just gave on the clip you showed, by blaming other people for your inability to go after donald trump, is not the way to win this nomination, in my view. >> so there is this belief that the more that comes at donald trump, just within the primary, the deeper his support gets. that his supporters buy what he says, which is, this is a witch hunt, they're coming after me, joe biden weaponized the department of justice, et cetera. the more indictments come, the stronger he gets. if that is true, how do you break through with true believers, these people who are all in for donald trump no matter what? >> look, first of all, i don't believe it is true. i think everyone is looking for one silver bullet. >> yeah. >> that will end his candidacy. i don't think that exists. but i do think that there comes

a weight he has to carry around. you saw this morning, the lead news this morning was his trial team asking for a trial to be delayed past the election. well, if there is another indictment, let's say, in georgia, and if there is another indictment by doj, all the things will be going on at the same time this guy is campaigning for president. i think there is a weight, a burden that he will carry, that other people look at and say, with four indictments, can he beat joe biden? i think that's going to take some time, though. i had a very smart, former elected official say to me a week ago, remember something, he's been at the front of republican primary voter minds for eight years. you're not going to get rid of that in eight weeks. there's a matter of patience. here's what republican voters deserve more than anything else, the truth. certainly not going to get that from him. they have results on issues they care about and won't get that either. he said he was going to build a wall across the border of

mexico. mexico was going to pay for it. he built 47 miles of new wall in four years. i could have built it with my hands more than 47 miles. we haven't gotten our first peso. he was going to balance the budget in four years. added $6 trillion to the national debt. we need results for the republican party, the voters that care about those things. he's not going to deliver it. >> republicans know everything you said. they know there's no wall. they know all that stuff, and they still are all in with him. what are you hearing when you go out? let's take new hampshire as an example. people who may have voted for him in '16 and '20, do you hear whether publicly at a town hall or privately talking to them, do they hear cracks in the support? >> they're concerned he can't beat joe biden. the interesting thing is, if you saw the interview he gave yesterday in "the nevada globe," they asked him, well, you lost nevada in '16 and '20. no republican has won it since '04. what's your strategy to win it

in '24? he said, actually, i did win in '16 and '20 by a lot. that strategy is not going to work. to tell people what you saw with your own eyes -- like the own country song, will you believe me or your lying eyes? after a while, this fact, and you see him at one of the rally, it's getting old. also remember something, he's never been attacked from inside the republican party in an effective way, on the facts by someone who knows him. and knows him well. given i prepared him for the debates in '16 and '20, he knows what he is in for, and he is not anxious to go and see that. >> joe, as always, governor christie is an open book, says you can ask him anything except about the mets being 18.5 games out of first place. >> i have a few questions. >> mika will have a few questions. >> i have a few questions, chris. >> the mets, mika? >> you can't ask about the mets. >> oh no. let me start. >> so -- >> let me go first. i need to know what to do with this. >> she always cuts me off. >> we want to have republicans

on the show, absolutely. >> yes. >> thank you for coming on. >> thank you. >> all republicans are welcome. >> we appreciate it. >> if everything you're saying about him is true, and i, you know -- you and i agree on january 6th and everything else that, you know, donald trump has done to this country. you also say people can't get the truth from him. i just need to understand, like, how do we do this? you're a candidate. you're trying to push people away from trump because it is bad for the country and, yet, you were in there. did you not see what was happening? >> the debate prep? >> everything. why didn't you say something? >> governor, really quickly, i think there is a quicker question that, obviously, everybody wants to hear your answer to that. there is a bigger question, too, about the balancing of what generals had to deal with and

their idea that i'm going to stay here because if it's not me, who comes behind me? you certainly saw that with general mattis and several others, gary cohn, several others. at what point, though, do you say, i'm out? i think mika would ask, and a lot of other people would ask, wasn't 2020 a little late to see the light? >> elections are about choices. we've had this conversation a number of times before. i didn't want hillary clinton to be president, and i didn't want joe biden to be president. for me, everyone will have their different breaking point based upon your sensibilities. for me, it was election night 2020 when he stood behind the seal of the president in the east room of the white house and said the election was stolen at 2:30 in the morning, when not all the votes had been counted and he had no notes to cut it.

to me, that was it. i said it that night on abc. mika, let me say one thing. >> if i could follow up, governor, you told me privately that -- well, gosh, i shouldn't say this if it was private. >> no, if it was a private conversation. >> oh, joe, screw it. you did it already. go ahead. >> okay. you told me he had started working to undermine confidence in the election to you privately behind the scenes, like, in the spring. you were saying, "joe, this is coming. this is coming. he is going to try to make americans believe that american democracy doesn't work." you knew that in the spring of 2000. >> i didn't know it in the spring. what i said to you is during debate prep, which started in late august of 2020, that he started to say things like, "well, if i don't win, it's going to be because of the mail-in ballots." so it wasn't really an issue of it being stolen.

it was more an issue of him saying that these changed rules or whatever are not fair and they're more open to fraud. he started to say that. i read that at the seem, joe, as him being concerned about winning, that he felt like he was losing. as a result, he was starting to say that already to try to set up an ego protector for himself. but in the end, to me, you ask when, you know, when was, for me, election night 2020. by the way, during the four years of his presidency, at least the last three where i was no longer in office and i was sitting at abc as a commentator, if you go back and look, there were a lot of times where i was very critical of things both he said and he did. >> right. >> believe me, i know i was because i get the phone calls in the car on the way back from new york to new jersey with him yelling at me because i'd said something critical on sunday morning. >> yeah. >> we all have our breaking points. that was mine. >> right. >> i don't think anybody can doubt the sincerity of what i am

saying and the authority with which i say it because i was a supporter. i did know him for 22 years. so to have somebody like me saying it, no one has ever done that before. >> right. and i will say, there will be a lot of people saying, oh my god, how could you want donald trump instead of joe biden in 2020? well, that's why you're running in a republican primary instead of a democratic primary. >> that's right. >> i'll explain that to our viewers right now, even though, obviously, i'd strongly disagree with you there. again, that's why we have two parties. i want to ask you, though, i was telling people the story about something you told me in 2016. i thought it was -- i thought it spoke to the power of donald trump's draw with his base more than any story i heard throughout that campaign. you told me after, you said, i went to a house, knocked on the door. the wife comes to the door, and

the most incredible conversation. the husband came. the kids were there. i sat there talking to them for 20, 30 minutes, hugging 'em. it was like they just absolutely loved me. as i was leaving, i asked, "hey, so i can count on your support then?" "oh, no, governor, we're voting for donald trump." it was -- again, it showed this remarkable connection with the base that donald trump had. i'm wondering, though, aren't you facing a lot of that as you go back to new hampshire in 2023 and 2024? >> i will tell you, you have an impeccable memory of that story, except in one respect. it wasn't me, it was mary pat. >> oh, they said that to mary pat? >> yes. what the family said to her when she was done, after they said, "we love your husband. he is blunt, smart, direct, we think he is great," then he

said, "of course, we're voting for trump and we hope he visits your husband as vice president or attorney general." she said, "if you love my husband, why are you voting for trump?" she said, "oh dear, your husband is a politician." that's the part of the story that's really important. >> especially if you know mary pat. >> he had no record. it was hard at the time. we all knew the idea he was going to build a wall across the entire border of mexico, he wasn't going to get it done. you couldn't prove he wouldn't get it done. now, we know he didn't get it done. anybody who thinks donald trump is not a politician anymore is not paying attention. so the argument is different. there is now a record to talk about and discuss. now, unfortunately, in our primary, there's few of my adversaries here who are willing to discuss it. i think that will change as we go forward. i think you're going to hear more people following my lead on this, which is to say, not only is he not a truth teller, and

that's true, but also, he does not provide results that republican primary voters want. either if he got into office, like when he did, or against joe biden, who he is the only man outside of the state of delaware to ever lose to joe biden. i know that hurts his ego, but the fact is, he'll lose again if he is the nominee of our party. >> off of what you just said, off of the facts of this story, off of the facts of his record, he does have a record, you still have people, his supporters who will say, well, i'm for him because he fights for us. going forward, do you think that donald trump, off of his record and off of his fake fighting, do you think that he is a danger to the country in the future? if, by some chance, he became the republican nominee for president, would you vote for the republican nominee for president? would you support him as the nominee? >> i've said i won't vote for him. but, you know, the fact is, his problem on the fighting issue,

joe -- i'm sorry, mike, is that he fights for himself. he doesn't fight for our party or for the american people. >> do you think he is a danger to the country? >> well, i don't want him to be president, so yeah. i mean, the fact is he is a guy who has shown over the course of time, and even more particularly i'd say, mike, in his post presidency, that he is detached from reality in this respect. he continues to say, and he said this the other day in response to a question when bret baier asked him, how are you winning back the suburban women voters you lost in 2020 to joe biden? he said, first off, i didn't lose in 2020. so we don't need a candidate as republicans who is going to continue to look backwards and try to re-fight the 2020 election. even in the race he won in 20 of 16, he's trying to re-fight the nevada election. imagine saying in that interview yesterday in nevada, he called it a disgraceful state. well, that's an interesting approach to try to win their electoral votes.

by the way, you people are disgraceful, vote for me, please. i mean, this guy is only about him. only about him. to the extent he ever does anything going forward that's positive for the country, it's coincidental. this is the out right now. folks say, "i know he's not a good guy, but i like his policies." if you do like those policies, and there's some i like and agree with, why would you ever hire him to execute them? he can't. he has shown he is unable to execute these policies. by the way, who is going to work for him? i thought, joe, you and i had an interesting back and forth on twitter about this a couple weeks ago, where we went through the things he's called, the people who worked for him, calling bill barr a disgusting pig, you know, saying rex tillerson is dumb as a rock and lazy as hell, calling general mattis overrated after calling him the greatest general since

george patten when he hired him. if he were to win, who would occupy these positions for him? i remember when he first hired mark meadows, he told me that this was the next jim baker. now, mark meadows is cooperating against him in a criminal investigation. i wonder if he still thinks he is jim baker. i suspect he doesn't. so all these things create problems, and that's why i think it is impossible for republicans ultimately, if they want to win the election in november against joe biden, which i think is vital for us to do for the future of the country, they can't nominate donald trump. that's the argument to be made. i can't tell you today whether it is a winning or losing argument, that's why we have campaigns and that's why we have elections. >> can you help, governor, many of our viewers, and joe touched on this, who are listening to you right now and saying, i wouldn't choose joe biden over donald trump. you have disagreements with joe biden on policy. inflation is too high right now. those are all fair criticisms, of course. talking about policy.

on the other side, you're making the case that donald trump is hurting the foundations of the country. he led an attempted coup against the government on january 6th. he is trying to overturn a presidential election. you say you can't support that. how do you -- when you put those two side by side, how do you choose donald trump over joe biden in that case? >> well, that's why i'm running, willie, is because i don't want the choice to be donald trump against joe biden. and so, you know, i've already said, i answered mike's question as directly as you could. the fact is that this is an awful choice. i think the last poll was 70% of the people don't want it to be donald trump and joe biden. let's face it, president biden in my opinion, and i said this before publicly, is too old for this job. he is not up to it anymore. i've known joe biden for 40 years, longer than donald trump. mary pat and i met joe biden when we were students at the university of delaware together. he'd walk around the tailgates,

the football games, and come and cop a beer off of every student tailgate he could. i've known him for a long time, he's dead wrong for the job and too old. >> donald trump too old, too? >> yeah, both are too old. i said they're both past their sell-by date, and they are. we do not need a choice in 2024 between two candidates who are combined 160 years old. i'm sorry. it'll be some people out there who will use the phrase ageist. guilty. there gets to be a certain page where you shouldn't be the president of the united states. the job is too hard, tootaxing, too much for somebody at that age. both donald trump and joe biden qualify for the sell-by date. >> put on your prosecutor's hat for a moment. you were u.s. attorney in the state of new jersey. we have two indictments for donald trump. we have one in manhattan, one

around the mar-a-lago documents, both serious in their own regards, potentially more coming around january 6th and in the state of georgia. how serious do you believe these cases are against him? how much trouble, just as a practical question, how much legal trouble is he in? is there jail time in his future? how are you looking at this? >> let's separate the two existing. on the manhattan d.a. side, it was a stupid indictment to bring. the manhattan d.a.'s job is to protect the lives and the property of the people of the borough of manhattan. if you walk around here, as i have and you fellas do, i don't know how indicting donald trump on a seven-year-old payment to a porn star makes us any safer in manhattan. we need to be safer. i think ultimately, even if he is convicted of those charges, and, by the way, i think he committed the underlying conduct, i'm not disputing that, but as a prosecutor, you have discretion, is this a case i really want to bring? think of the resources alvin bragg is using to bring this case, when we have people being

killed, assaulted, mugged, robbed all over this borough, to a point where people don't want to come here anymore. i think there's serious legal jeopardy to being found guilty. will he be sent to rikers island? unlikely. the special prosecutor case is much, much different. his conduct there is reprehensible. i want people to understand this. he was given 18 months to return those documents voluntarily. 18 months. they asked him privately, quietly, respectfully. he lied, denied and obstructed. he obstructed a grand jury subpoena. he lied to his own lawyers. he hid documents from his lawyers so they wouldn't turn over documents to the government. even documents he gave them, he said, by the way, see bad ones in there, pluck them out before you give them to the government. then ultimately complains in a post he put up yesterday, the raid on his home one a violation

of his fourth amendment rights. well, you know, he generally has really crappy lawyers, so let me give him advice. when they get a court order from a united states district court judge, it's not a violation of your fourth amendment rights. in fact, if you had done the simple thing that i think almost any other american would have done, which would have been to gif the documents back, he wouldn't be prosecuted. he is in big trouble there. if he takes this case to trial and is convicted, which based upon what i've seen in the indictment, i believe he will be, then he is facing jail time. part of what the justice department has always done under the attorneys general i've seen in my lifetime, if we offer you a plea, which i'm certain they will, and you turn us down and take us to trial and you're convicted, that judge is sending you to jail. i think that's what he goes to bed every night thinking, every night.

all this bravado and everything else, i've known him for 22 years, when i was doing these cases in new jersey and i'd put political figures in jail, he'd say to me, "i could never do that. i could never go to jail." i'm telling you, no matter what he says, no matter how he's bragging and going on and on about him not being afraid, he goes to bed every time thinking about the sound of the jail cell door closing behind him. so the point of all that, willie, is to say, when push comes to shove, i'm not so sure he won't take the plea. because if that's the only way he knows he can avoid prison, i think he just may. that's what republican voters need to think about. you could be confronted with that issue, with someone who maybe even is, you know, your party's nominee. there's no reason for us to give joe biden that type of tilted playing field to play on. it's not fair for the country. it's not good for my party. >> joe?

>> well, i mean, especially when you consider that people that were his strongest advocates at one time, people like bill barr who say he is guilty, they've got him dead to right there. >> totally. >> jonathan toews. turley, who seemed to defend him through everything, said, even if guilty on one count, it is a life sentence in jail. i'm befuddled, as i have been for some time with the republican party, why they'd nominate a guy that could head to jail. let's talk policy and the economy. i jotted down some things about the economy that, right now, seem to be very strong. my question, and you can trash joe biden if you like. i'm not saying you will. i'm more interested in how do you improve upon these things. we have structural problems, debt, inflation going down a bit. unemployment over the past year has been at an all-time low. the dollar has been at a

generational high. america's gdp, we've shot up to $25 trillion while china and the rest of the world stagnated. obviously, strongest economy in the world. childhood poverty at an all-time low. manufacturing is actually exploding for the first time in some time. this is one i find so sbers interesting, especially the right track/wrong track number. 75% of americans say they're in pretty good shape economically, pretty good or really good shape economically, yet we have the right track/wrong track going in the wrong direction. that's a bit of an understatement. so given that we're doing some things really well as a country, and i never put that on any republican -- any president, republican or democrat, but things are -- some things are going really well compared to the rest of the world economically. what is joe biden doing wrong? also, how do you build on the success? >> well, he is wildly overspending, joe.

what that has done is not only add monumentally to our national debt, which we didn't need to see happen, but it's also created this inflation. i think the answer to your question about, in light of those numbers, why do people still feel we're on the wrong track, it's inflation. inflation is a thing that people feel every day. they go to the gas station, they feel it. they go to the supermarket, they feel it. go to the clothes store to buy clothing for themselves or their children. they go to any place, and inflation is the hidden tax that makes them feel every day like they're falling further behind. so despite some of those things you just said, if you don't get inflation under control, inflation is a presidency killer. ask jimmy carter, who is joe biden's favorite president. the fact is, it killed jimmy carter's presidency, and i believe it will be the single economic factor that will kill joe biden's presidency, as long as we don't nominate donald

trump. so what we need to do is to make sure that we get spending back under control. let me be candid about this, donald trump did a lousy job at that, too. so did the republican congress. so we've lost some credibility on that. but as you all remember, when we first became acquainted in 2010, i inherited an $11 billion deficit on a $29 billion budget and balanced the budget by cutting 863 programs and didn't raise taxes. these things can be done over time. they have certainly, both barack obama, donald trump and joe biden have all dug this country a huge debt hole that they have left us. all of them adding to the national debt in trillions of dollars. so that's, joe, the argument that needs to be made. until people start feeling like their paycheck outpaces their costs to raise their families, this is not going to change in terms of the right track/wrong track number.

>> yeah. governor, the next question i'm going to ask is a question i would normally not ask, because i hated when i was running, people ask an abortion question. you'd give a two-word answer, and that'd be the screaming headline and nothing else would seem to matter. i ask it now, of course, because it's playing, now, of course, be it's playing, i think, a massive role in elections, in swing elections. it did in 2022, it did in kansas. i know you know it did in wisconsin. and that the supreme court case. so i'm curious. have you heard from people that are pro life saying to to you i'm pro life. i didn't sign up for 10-year-old girls who were raped having to flee ohio to try to find an abortion. and other people saying a 14-year-old being raped by her uncle is a perfect reason why we

have to have the state actually force the pregnancy on the 14-year-old girl. have you heard from republicans on the campaign trail that they believe that the state legislatures across the country are way too extreme and desantis' six-week ban, way too extreme, eem people who considered themselves pro life. >> republicans over the course of time, myself included, have made the same argument for 50 years. that roe v. wade was wrongly decided. it's not a constitutional right. and that it should be returned to the states to decide. and so that's what's happening. and i agree with what's happening in terms of letting the states decide it. at some point, there's going to be extremes onth both sides. in my state, you can get an abortion for any reason up to the 9th month. now i don't believe that that's where the american people are either. and so you raised what you

consider to be extreme examples on one side, in the state of new jersey, abortion up to the ninth month. now that's what's going to happen if wh you return the issue to the states. what i hope you're going to see is that when you all 50 states weigh in on this, there's going to become a national consensus from that on where we are. and then and only then should the federal government consider weighing in. i think this needs to be something that the states decide individually. each state, i disagree with where my state is. i governed as a pro life governor with exceptions for rape and incest and life of the mother. as a governor of a blue state, i was very candid about that and got reelected with 61% of the vote. even vetoing planned parenthood funding 14 times. but in the end, the states should make these calls. then if a national consensus

develops, then the federal government can come in and try to establish a national standard. based upon a consensus. i have been asking for this my entire legal career. and this is what's happening. and you're going to disagree with others. but this is not a constitutional issue. >> so let's take it from the constitution. i understand that maybe your view of what the united states constitution does or does not say, but just on a personal level, are you not deeply disturbed? i understand what you're saying about new jersey and new york state and other states. are you not disturbed by so many of these stories that you're hearing about women having to make horrifying choices and -- >> like a woman with abnormalities whose baby will die and cannot get a termination? >> i have always said that rape, incest and the life of the mother should be exceptions.

and by the way, i am also deeply disturbed by the idea that someone can go in the ninth month and get an abortion. as a father, i'm deeply disturbed at that. >> we have heard that. and i think we agree with you on that. but mika's question has to do with women who are bleeding out, women whose bodies are being destroyed -- >> because hospital boards have to sit and decide whether or not her life is in danger. administrative blockades for a woman making a choice for her life, this is what we're talking about. >> and you said doctors. doctors are scared to do basic procedures because of they think they might run afoul of the law. >> every life is precious. every life. so if the life of a mother, if someone is bleeding out, that life is precious. that life needs to be saved.

that's why i have always been for that exception. but i also believe the loif in the womb is precious. let me say this. i don't talk about this much, but given that we're getting this deeply. this is deeply personal for me. my younger sister is adopted. we adopted her. she was born to a teenage mother in 1971 in new jersey. there's no doubt in mutt mind if roe v. wade, my sister would have been aborted. she's now had had an amazing life. mother of five children, and my sister, and i i love her. these are real lives that have real value and can have real value. my parents, who were not able to have children after my brother and i were born, deeply wanted a daughter. they were there waiting to adopt my sister when her teenage mother gave birth to her. so this is not just a theoretical or political

argument for me. this is something that comes from my heart, from my own experience as an old brother, to a young woman who i believe wonlt have be on earth if the law had been the way it was during roe v. wade. i think every life is precious and deserves to be treated that way. that's why, as you all know, i feel the way i do about the opioid crisis in this country and why we need to have more drug treatment available to everyone. every life is a gift from god. i look at mutt sister that way and a lot of other people look at it that way as well. >> so we have talked about the legal side of it and the moral side of it. thank you for your comments there. and again, people can disagree. people are going to disagree. everybody can take a deep breath. we can disagree with people we interview.

i want to talk about the political side of it really quickly i have heard everything before. i'm not dismissing that. i'm really glad that you came and said that on msnbc. but i do want to -- let's limit this to the political impact. take a state of wisconsin. leave it to the state. i'm sorry, those bone head legislators in wisconsin kept a law on the books that was passed when tyler was president of the united states. it was like 1849 ban. and you look, even "the wall street journal" editorial page, other people are saying to the republican party, wake up. you're going to lose all the swing states. you have seen from kansas to kentucky to all these. what's your response to that? do you have concerns politically about these extreme positions

hurting the republican party? >> i certainly have concerns about that, joe. i think the democratic party, too, should have concerns about the extremes of allowing abortion in the ninth month. so i think that extremes on either end of it are things that the american people are now very concerned about. but that's why we have the aublt -- you talked about the wisconsin supreme court decision. politicians are simple folks, as you know having been one. they look at thimgs and trying to figure out once they see a result how they can change it if it's negative for them. so i think there will be changes that will happen in some of these places. but also what i think is that a presidential election, you believe, is unlikely to be decided on this issue. when you see what's happening in ukraine. when you see what's happening with inflation. when you see the dropping

education scores, when you see the problems that we have at the border, when you see 8 million open jobs because there are not enough people in the country that want to fill those jobs, all those things are going to be important issues. abortion is an important issue too,s but i don't believe in a presidential race that abortion is going to be the determining issue. >> i'm so glad you brought up the 8 million jobs. there are not people here that the those jobs. one of my pet peeves right now, and i cannot believe it is a guy that ran as a conservative pop list, i believe when you come to the united states of america, you should come in the right way. i'm really conservative. i have always been far more conservative on immigration than certainly than the people that ran the caucus when i got there in 1995. but there are family restaurants in new jersey, there are family restaurants in florida, there are family restaurants in iowa, family restaurants in new hampshire that still only have

half of the restaurants open because they can't get summer visas whether it's from eastern europe or other parts. and then you look at the smartest, the best and the brightest people on the planet. come to our universities because our universities are the best on the planet. and as tom freedman says, instead of stapling a green card on to the back diplomas, we have them go back to new delhi and create jobs there instead of north carolina. so my huge pet peeve right now, what congress is doing getting in the way of us getting people in this country that want to fill those jobs, that want to work, that want to go to silicon valley, that want to go to other places and create jobs for americans. what is wrong with the

republican -- i'll say this. the republican party on immigration. why can't they at least support expanding legal immigration, because as you said, we desperately need it. >> i absolutely believe that we have to fix that part of the immigration system and others as well. and it's going to take a president who is willing to get in there and force compromise. and we haven't had one who has been willing to do that. put their political capital on the line to force both sides to compromise. because let's face it. we have had democratic presidents like barack obama with huge democratic majorities. with a fill u.s.er-proof majority. we have had george w. bush with republican majorities. we have had donald trump with republican majorities on the republican side. we have joe biden with majorities at the beginning of his presidency. neither party has dealt with with this issue when they have

had majorities in congress. and so i hear what you're saying about my party. but i will tell you that the democratic party is just guilty of not fixing this problem. and i believe the ultimate blame lies with the presidents i just mentioned. because it's only a president who can get those people into a room and say, here's what you have to give. here's what you have to give. and understand that he's going to play some political price for whatever copromise he forges. but it's going to be a long-term game. ronald reagan did that when he was president. i know there's some people who no longer think reagan was a real conservative. i'm old enough since my first vote at 18 years old was in the dorm room at the university of delaware for ronald reagan over jimmy carter. i remember him. i'm in the midst of writing a book about him now. i believe him to be the essential conservative of this movement still 43 years later.

and he found a way on social security, on immigration, two of the most difficult issues this country has faced. it got fixed under reagan because of ronald reagan. and if you want that to happen, then elect a republican conservative from a blue state to be president of the united states. who knows how to do this. that's what i'll do as president because that's what reagan did as president the. >> we appreciate you being here for as long as you have been here. in closing, republican voter watching you there it is. that's the message i want to hear. but in the back of their minds, i don't know if he can get there. maybe they have dabbled in governor desantis and said he's not who i i thought he was going to be. there's a resignation from some people at the end of the day, donald trump is going to be the nominee. what do you say to the people that want something else?

how do you climb out of where you are in the poming and become the nominee? >> the first thing i will remind them is at this point donald trump was at 4%. nobody, most particularly jeb bush, thought donald trump was going to be the republican nominee for president. so there's a lot of campaign to go here. i say this to a group of folks at the reagan institute this weekend. i got asked the same question by a member of that audience. i i said, you know, how many of you supported jeb bush in 2016 at this time? two-thirds of the room raised their hands. said, how many of you in 2008 supported rudy giuliani at this point? about half of them raised their hands. i said how about we decide this. you people suck at picking who the favorite is going to be. and they all burst out laughing. i said nobody when donald trump came down the escalaor thought it was going to be him for the democrats who think you have cornered the market.

at this point in 2007, barack obama was 34 points behind hillary clinton. so instead of trying to pick the winner now and that's who i'll support, how about doing what you said, who do we want to be president. who do we think has the common sense and the right experience to govern to be president in these times. then let's get behind that person to try to make them the president. that's happened before. it can happen again. they said bah obama revolutionized online fundraising because he had a great website. no, that's not why. it's because he had a message that the american people wanted to hear. and they found a way to give him money. so my view on this is you have to be patient and persistent. and remember this. on august 23rd, i'll be at the first debate. i believe donald trump will be

there too. because i don't believe his egowill prmt him to think that anybody thinks he's scared to be on the stage with me. so he will be there. and we'll be the only two people on the stage that ever have run for president before. that matters. i'm going to be patient. i'm going to be persistent. we're going to win new hampshire. and we're going to win the nomination. thn we'll come back here after i'm the nominee and we'll talk about this conversation. it will be good because you didn't say i couldn't win. you just asked me how. so you won't be made to look stupid. >> i appreciate that. we'll hold on to the tape. we appreciate all the time you have given us this morning. republican presidential candidate chris christie. thank you very much. good to see you. >> it's great to be here with you guys. >> we'll see you soon. to our top story at 6 minutes past the top of the third hour of "morning joe," the nato alliance appears ready to

welcome sweden as its newest member. a long sought edition finally made real after turkey just agreed to back the bid. turkish president erdogan had blocked the efforts to join for a year claiming that sweden was supporting a kurdish minor tu that his government considers a terrorist group. but nato's secretary general and prime minister met last night and came to an agreement that would allow the membership to move forward. it adds hundreds of miles of nato protection along russia's border. >> let's bring in dree ya mitchell. she joins us live from the nato summit. andrea, mika was talking about the deal that erdogan agreed to. unrelated, of course, fighter jets now being sold to turkey. >> reporter: a complete

coincidence, joe. what would you make you think providing funds that they have long wanted and that president biden says are necessary for their defense, what makes you think that's connected to erdogan caving in and agreeing to what they are saying is an historic day for nato. secretary blinken saying this is a really important edition. sweden is more than qualified. they have a very strong military. sweden and finland are two new members. the baltic states will be well defended. this is a big moment for toe. but there's some hiccups along the way. one of the big issues is disagreements over cluster bombs and the decision by the u.s. to provide cluster bombs to ukraine to help with the counteroffensive, which president zelenskyied a mutted is slow going. russia is well defended, dug in. and president biden said this is a critical time and indicating

that he made this decision which he called a difficult decision because it is a critical time. ukraine has to do well in this counteroffensive. this is a war of attrition. and one doesn't know what would happen if they don't somehow make ground against russia. so in talking to secretary blinken today, he defended the decision, which has been criticized by the uk, by germany, by france, more than 100 nations have signed a treaty or convention banning the use of such munitions. and blinken says that ukraine would be defenseless without these weapons and that they have no other option. i asked why they did not provide more conventional weapons that are not as deadly and don't have as long standing effects when they could have opportunitying the counteroffensive, and he said they just did not have the

production capacity that they are building up to it. >> so here's more of that conversation that you had with the united states secretary of state on the sending of clusterer bombs to ukraine. >> the hard but necessary choice to give the munitions is this. if we didn't do it, then they will run out of ammunition. if they reason out of ammunition, they will be defenseless. >> uk is against it. are we seeding the moral ground? >> every ally has said they understand why we're doing this when we're doing it. >> what is the administration, what is the president and his people today think about the munitions, these cluster bombs given the shelf life that they have once they are exposed? >> exactly. reportedly, secretary of state antony blinkens was the last to join the national security counsel in agreeing with the decision. there's criticism on the hill from both democrats and

republicans, so this decision is going to be very controversial. human rights groups are objecting. i talked to ben rhodes the other day. he said he had gone to laos in his role in the white house for president obama and saw the devastation that still all these decades after america left southeast asia still children are being injured in the field. but according to secretary blinken, russia is using those now. ukraine cannot be defenseless, and they are doing it on their grounds. ukraine is going to have to live with the results of these as they try to help them recover if it ever ends. >> all right. andrea mitchell live for us, thank you. be watching your interview with the secretary of state at 12:00 right here on msnbc.

despite a landslide reelection victory governor desantis last november, new polling shows sunshine state voters prefer a different florida man for the 2024 republican presidential primary there. in the latest survey from florida atlantic university, donald trump leads delaware isn't tas by 20 points, 50% to 30%, among registered republican voters in the state. all other candidates earned less than 5% of support. meanwhile, donald trump lashing out this time training his ire on ah governor kim reynolds. trump called the republican governor disloyal after she said she will remain neutral and not endorse any candidate in the presidential primary race. iowa governors opportunitically make that pledge because the state's primary is so closely watched. trump, however, called the move

unacceptable and suggested that she's favoring ron desantis writing on truth social yesterday, quote, i opened up the governor's position for kim reynolds. when she fell behind, i endorsed her and she won. now she wants to remain neutral. i don't invite her to events. the comments come days after reynolds appeared at an event with desantis' wife. the governor has shown up to several events, but she's appeared alongside multiple other candidates when they visited her state. several of them including desantis calm to her defense following trump's comments post ing on twitter that reynolds is a strong leader. >> joining us is david druker. i don't know if you got a chance to hear what chris christie was saying. more broadly, how this might shake out over the next several

months. how are republicans, how are some of these candidates looking at their chances right now against donald trump when despite everything surrounding him, the indictments that are here, the indictments that maybe coming, he's still up 20 points in ron desantis' own state of florida. >> i just returned from new hampshire. i spent a couple days up there. i have been in iowa. and basically, this is the big question i keep asking everybody. is this as race that is just slow to develop and give it time and as we have seen in other primaries, how that primary shook out for republicans, we could go on, 2016. once this thing gets underway, we're going to see some movement or could see some movement. or the thing is kind of over, but if you're in iowa or new hampshire, you can't say so because it's your job to get everybody to show up. so you can't shoo them away. i get different answers

depending on who i talked to. the candidates thelss, and i interviewed nikki haley on saturday. i talked to chris christie about this. really seem to believe that over time, if it they do the tackling on the ground, can raise the money they need to do that. there can be some movement and shakeups, just like we have seen in other primaries. somebody looked unbeatable and all of a sudden they weren't. we're going to have to see which way this primary goes. i do think it's true. the debates are going to be big at least the first one. and i also think it's true that while trump is a front runner and may win this thing big, he's not the same figure he was in 2015 and 2016, when he was the ultimate change agent, a fresh face in politics. even though everybody knew who he was. he's an eight had-year incumbent retread. so there are soft spots to exploit there.

the question is whether any of these candidates can do it. one thing i have seen over the last several weeks, they are at least trying, all in their own way, but they are giving it a shot. this time eight years ago, nobody was giving it a shot because they assumed he would fail. >> you mentioned your trip to the state of new hampshire. you talked to governor sununu, who was working to engineer a little bit donald trump's defeat. how does he expect to pull that off? >> i don't know if this is going to work, but this is another part of republicans are treating trump differently this time around. what every republican is telling me in new hampshire in particular s that a field that remains hopelessly divided helps donald trump. it's true some could fade and you have a de facto one-on-one race. but what republican opera tufs in new hampshire believe and operatives elsewhere believe is if you're not doing well come the early fall or late summer, the field has to win out.

what governor sununu wants to do is use the bully pull pill that he has. he's a fairly popular governor. he's won four two-year terms. his determine numbers are good. it's privately urge candidates not doing well to get lost. if they don't take a hint privately, to say so publicly. now in today's republican party, party leaders are not that strong. the parties are really on a balancing act. but somebody like sununu who starts to say publicly, i think this candidate or that candidate needs to drop out so we can have a one-on-one race with donald trump. that gives us a chance for an alternative. i think that could create a media headache for some of these candidates, if they are the ones receiving end. i think governor sununu is willing to test that proposition. some republicans in new hampshire tell me it won't make

a difference because candidates have egos and are going to do whatever they want. others tell me he has a unique voice up there and it could very well be influential in this way. >> senior writer for the dispatch, david druckue, thank you. there's another possible delay in the class if ied documents case, this time coming from former president trump's alleged coconspirator walt nauta. lawyers for his personal aid and codefendant filed a motion yesterday asking judge cannon to postpone a hearing regarding the classified information procedures act currently scheduled for this friday in florida. nauta's attorneys proposed pushing the hearing to next tuesday because his main lawyer won't be available this friday, as he is currently in a trial for another client in washington, d.c.

prosecutors immediately opposed the request. they noted that nauta's attorney has not yet completed the paperwork necessary to get the security clearance requested by the judge. that clearance is necessary for attorneys to review the documents involved in the case. in a separate filing yesterday, lawyers for both former president trump and walt nauta said it's too early to set a date pushing back on prosecutors who asked the judge to set a trial date for december. that was after the judge scheduled the trial to begin in august. both trump and his aid nauta have pleaded not guilty in the case. meanwhile, two new grand juries will be seated in fullton county, georgia, today. the da has been vgting possible interference in the 2020 election in georgia since early 2021 when form president trump called georgia's secretary of state and asked hum to find the

exact number of votes he needed to win the state. a previous grand jury this year recommended multiple people to be charged with alleged crimes willis does move forward with the charges,ne of the panels seated today will have to decide whether to approve the indictment. each jury will be made up of 23 members and 3 alternates. they will hear many different cases and are not solely focused on potential election interference. the da indicated months ago that any possible charging decisions in her investigation would come near the end of this summer. joining us now is former federal prosecutor ankish kadori. curious, in the classified documents trial, the movement

and the pushback by the attorneys to try to buy time, is that common procedure or a trump tactic to try to delay. >> it's a common feature of any kind of criminal case. hearing a prelim marry hearing dates, those dates will be moved around a bit. it's trying to build their defense. but as we talked about before, in this particular instance, donald trump has a much more significant imperative. don't think they offered a date. that's because conceivably, he might be able to one his reelection bid and shut the case down. >> i want to ask you about your new piece in new york magazine entitled "the sequel will be worse."

you write about former president trump's pledge if reelected he would appoint a special prosecutor to go after president biden and his family. you spoke with several former senior officials who served in the justice department during the trump administration. you write in part, their most pressing concern was that trump would follow through on his threats to target his political enemies and that he could be much more effective next time. i would not want to be attorney general under donald trump. they would be in contention to be the nation's top law enforcement official after serving in a high ranking role as a political awe point tee the first time around. all trump would need to do is find someone in his justice department. his attorney general or perhaps the head of the criminal

division wo would have seeded to his demand for a biden investigation, which could be conducted either by a hand-picked prosecutor in the department. or recruited from an appointed by the attorney general. a prosecutor could spend years trawling through the biden family business deals and even if biden were never actually charged a criminal investigation along tease lines would be incredibly and financially. and daring to oppose. >> and including at the most senior capacity. and the sequel could be worse, what are they referring to? >> so from trump's first hurdle,

there were significant steps towards prosecuting his adversaries. hillary clinton, an investigation into john kerry, director andrew mcindicate and even john bolton. for a variety of reasons, none of the efforts to prosecute didn't reach fruition. this time around what i heard from the people who were in trump's justice department, they are much more concerned he will be more determined, he will find more people to appoint to serve in the positions who will push back less than the people in his rl administration did. he's kind of learned some of the tricks of the presidency, which is that you can install people in acting capacity. you can fire people if they don't do what you want and work your way down the line of bureaucratic succession and ply the department in ta way and he learned some of the tools he didn't really understand when he took office. >> the new piece is online for new york magazine.

thank you very much for joining us and sharing your piece with us. still ahead on "morning joe," the same person who republicans cite as truth teller now has been criminally charged by federal prosecutors. how the gop's so-called whistleblower on the biden family is now facing big problems of his own. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. we'll be rieght back nexium 24hr prevents heartburn acid for twice as long as pepcid. get all-day and all-night heartburn acid prevention with just one pill a day. choose acid prevention. choose nexium.

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welcome back. the so-called whistleblower who republicans claimed would expose alleged corruption of "morning joe" and his son has been charged with acting as an unregistered agent of china. he was charged in the southern district of new york. the u.s. toesh said he engaged in multiple serious criminal schemes. he's a dual israeli and u.s. citizen and the head of the think tank in maryland. the eight-count indictment was unsealed yesterday includes

conspiracy to the arms export control act. and making false statements, among others. doj stated, the man subverted foreign agent registration laws in the united states to seek to promote chinese policies by acting through a high ranking official. he acted as a broker for dangerous weapons in iranian oil. >> you're kidding me. >> he was arrested in february before skipping bail. he's a fugitive. congressional republicans said they spoke with him about the business dealings of the biden family. told members of the press he had gone missing. the same lawmakers also have called him, very credible. as recently as friday, republican congressman of kentucky, he's the chair of the oversight committee, said this. >> he's very credible and the

people on msnbc who made fun of me when i said that we had an informant missing should feel like fools. this is their worst nightmare. this is a credible witness that the fub flew all the way to brussels to interview and sent several agents to interview. >> so to recap, this man looked who they -- >> hold on. go ahead. i have a checklist. >> he's your man. the head of the oversight, senator johnson has talked about this man as well. they said he could tell the story of the biden crime family doing business with china. he's accused in an eight-count indictment of being an illegal arms broker. >> hold on. illegal arms dealer. okay. >> unregistered agent for the chinese government. >> we're working with the chinese illegally, okay.

i got that one. >> helping china to get iranian oil in violation of u.s. sanctions. >> hold on. i have to put down illegally smuggling iranian oil for the chinese -- there's a lot to write here. chinese communist party. so this is a lot. i'm a simple country lawyer. so wif the chineses espionage. and we have him lislely smuggling oil. does that cover it? >> just to put a period on the end of the sentence. then lying to federal agents about all of this. this is an eight-count indictment. >> he's on the run. >> he's a fugitive from the u.s. government. >> i got to say,s i feel like a

fool. how could we have ever doubted this guy? how could we have doubted him? >> so he lied to the feds about it. i think it's chinese espionage. he lied about being an arms dealer. he lied about illegally smuggling iranian oil to the chinese communist party. he is a fugitive on the run from the law. and this combser guy says they have a credible witness. >> all the shame, oh, the humanity. how could we have doubted congressman comer. he had comes through with the chinese smuggler that we have all been waiting to hear from,

if we could ever find him. and they probably flew to brussels to try to arrest him. and drag him down for his various crimes. comer has really proven even in the constellation of crazy house republicans trying to investigate and pin something on the bidens, something, anything, comer has distinguished himself as, i think, the worst at this point. he's really incompetent and they should have picked somebody else. >> no doubt about it. richard has, every time i bring this up, people that are actually inside the bubble in this right wing house republican bubble are in this ecosystem. that thinks hunter biden is going to unlock every door.

keep saying you keep shooting yourselves in the foot. all of these investigations are not just hunterer biden, but that poor fella that tied to indict people and tried to prove that the fbi somehow with hillary and the fbi were spying on donald trump. juries laugh him out of the courtroom two times. he proves absolutely nothing. you then move on. there are a couple hacks that try to protect him, but they can't. then we move on to comer and hunter biden's olympic top and this and that. and they just i'm dead serious here. they keep making fools of themselves. and comer, at some point, comer, who i understand was once a fairly respected member of congress, if i'm not mistaken, at some point, you have to quit

while you're behind. they just can't do it. now he's gone on tv bragging about having a guy who is a fugitive from the law, who helped smuggle oil for iran, iranian oil to the chinese communist party is an illegal arms dealer. and is suspected of illegally cooperating with the chinese. i don't know if he's a chinese spy, chinese espionage, i i don't know how the feds are beginning to term that, but he's a fugitive on the run from the law for helping the chinese, helping the iranians, a smuggling iranian oil to the chinese comunist party. again, quit while you're behind. james comer and republican party. start talking about inflation. >> so much of this is the

alternate is having to defend donald trump and the various charges against him. so on the old adage that the best defense is a good offense, you have this unsuccessful attempt to play offense against president biden, hunt biden and all that. and i think what this shows is that a lot of these republicans realize there's no defense of the former the. they are just trying to distract and change the story. the good news out of all of this is we could get a reare make of the fugitive. we could have a whole new series, a whole new movie based upon this character, just bring it up-to-date. the 2023 version. >> harrison ford remade indian jones. you'll be not surprised that the response from republicans in the last couple days has been that the justice department is target ing lift. they are trying to silence this

man by pursuing these charges because he has all the answers to the alleged biden crime family. >> of course, this is they attack the fbi for trying to get nuclear secrets back in safe holding. they attack the fbi for trying to get secret iranian war plans back into a safe holding place. it's the latest example. i hope all of these people do expose themselves in supporting -- if this is who they really are, if it they want to support a guy that is smuggling oil, illegally being an arms dealer, i think that exposes them even more for who they are. people who are going to attack law enforcement, when they actually try to do their jobs. it's just really -- but if there

is a remake of "the fugitive", who is the guy in the movie? at the end of this, you're going to have harrison ford playing guy? they are going to be in that water drain and harrison ford is going to say let me go. and guy is going to say, you're guilty. and harrison ford is going to go, yeah, i am. it's just really bad. >> while we're at it, the federal prosecutor -- >> did you know that this guy smuggled oil, iranian oil illegally for the chinese communist party? did you know that? james comer is on his side. did you know this guy worked

with the chinese communist government and james comer likes this guy? did you know this guy is an illegal arms dealer and james comer is proud to be on his side? i'm telling you, this is a whole new day for the republican party. the republican party is embracing -- and i just can't say it enough. people who illegally smuggle iranian oil to the chinese communist party, strike up the band. it's going to be a hell of a 2024. go ahead. >> someone help me. meanwhile, the federal prosecutor who reached a plea deal with hunter biden -- >> now this one is bad. right? this one is bad for the bidens. >> is disputing claims by an irs whistleblower and republican lawmakers.

>> what? >> delaware u.s. attorney says. >> this is a trump guy? >> he had the clearance to bring charges against the president's son in any jurisdiction. the whistleblower had claimed he was blocked from doing so by democratic appointed u.s. attorneys. in a letter to the judiciary committee, also wrote he never asked to be named the special counsel as some republican lawmakers have claimed. he says he did seek status as a special attorney, which would give him authority to file charges anywhere without permission of the u.s. attorney in that district. >> and again, as greek philosopher once said, now they are just making stuff up. i cleaned it up for the kids today. i cleaned it up for the kids today. but really, they are making all of these wild charges up.

they all blow up in their faces. and they wonder why they keep losing elections. >> it resinates in a certain media ecosystem. this is what people are talking about on certain tv shows and certain websites. it does have the feeling of an important investigation to certain people. the question is when you get out into the country and walk around, do people feel like this is significant. they understand if hunter biden did something wrong, you ought to be charged. if he did something serious enough, he ought to go to jail. period. but the republicans have to make up their mind. is joe biden an old man who can't find the right door to leaf after a press conference, or is he the master mind of an international criminal scheme that involves china and russia and ukraine and all these different places, where he's enriching himself and his family. kind of can't be both. >> coming up, our interview with one of president biden's top advisers on national security.

retired admiral john kirby outlines the government's goals of the nato summit. "morning joe" is back in a moment. o summit "morning joe" is back in a moment i'm jayson. i'm living with hiv and i'm on cabenuva. it helps keep me undetectable. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. cabenuva is two injections, given by my healthcare provider, every other month. it's really nice not to have to rush home and take a daily hiv pill. don't receive cabenuva if you're allergic to its ingredients or if you taking certain medicines, which may interact with cabenuva. serious side effects include allergic reactions post-injection reactions, liver problems, and depression. if you have a rash and other allergic reaction symptoms, stop cabenuva and get medical help right away. tell your doctor if you have liver problems or mental health concerns, and if you are pregnant, breastfeeding, or considering pregnancy. some of the most common side effects include injection-site reactions, fever, and tiredness.

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republican senator tommy tuberville of alabama vowed to continue blocking the approval of military promotions due to the pentagon's abortion policy. tuberville's brok indicate is keeping hundreds from their promotions, including high-ranking officials such as the leader of the united states marine corp., which is now without a permanent chief for the first time in over a century. the alabama senator is using a procedure to slow approvals that are usually completed with a

unanimous consent vote. the senator is pushing for the defense department to scrap its policy that gives time off and travel reimbursements to service members that have to travel out of state for abortion services. tuberville single handedly his stoppage is coming at a time when more than half of the current joint chiefs are expected to step down from their posts in the next few months without a successor in place. take a listen to what the senator said yesterday about his actions. >> i've got a great deal of admiration for general. earlier today, general smith became the acting head of the marine corp. he is doing the same exact job, which he has been doing for several years. the only difference is today he is an acting official. this has minimal effect of the ability to lead. there maybe a delay in his

planning guidance and yet he cannot move into the residence, but there's little doubt about general smith's ability to lead effectively. general smith assured me that he was committed to keeping politics out of the military. and for me to vote for somebody, that's impactly what i'm looking for. keep politics out of the military. >> i mean, this is so shocking. mike, i have been hearing republicans wine about how much they love russia and how they love the russian military, how the russian military is manly and america's military is not because they are too woke. they are too concerned about social policy issues invading the military's readiness. that's all a lie, but of course, they project or maybe it's confession because it's exact

what tommy tuberville is doing here. the thought that he is being a cultural warrior and bringing a wedge issue into the united states marine corp. to stop the from having a commandant to lead the marine corps is beyond shocking. i really can't believe that other republicans around tommy tuberville in the united states senate, who are supposed to be the sane people, i can't believe they are sitting by and letting this guy continue to do this. >> joe, you know this better than anybody. this is the 2023 version of the republican party. let's take on the intelligence community of the united states of america. let's take on the fbi, the vaunted legal arm of the justice department. let's take on the military.

that's what tommy tuberville is doing. he can't even pronounce the words. he said the commandment's house. it's the commandant's house. for the first time in 150 years, the united states marine corps is without a commandant. the commandant right now retires in a couple of weeks. because tommy tuberville has decided he knows more than anybody else about the defense of the united states of america, he has held up line promotions now for a couple of months. who in the republican party is speaking out loud about it? >> i'm not saying that he knows more about defense. he's saying he doesn't want women to do what's legal, for them to legally travel to another state. he is going to stop the united states marine corps from having

a commandant for the first time in 150 years. not for anything that has to do with america's readiness, not for anything that has to do with protecting and defending the united states of america. no. he's stopping the united states marine corps from having a commandant for the first time in 150 years because he doesn't want to allow women -- >> to get health care. >> -- to do what's legal, and that is to go to a state to get an abortion if that's what they choose to get. >> or medically need for their lives. >> or need to do it for medical reasons. it's the united states marine corps that he's declaring war against. >> it's not just the marine corps. there are hundreds of line officers who would do promotions and they can't get those promotions because of tommy tuberville.

this is a guy who represents a state, an honorable noble state, who has committed over the years hundreds of young people to the military in defense of this country. and he alone is standing against all of this progress because, as you said, the ability of women to travel to other states to maintain their health. that's what he's doing. where are the republican voices in the united states senate speaking out loudly against this? where are they speaking out loudly and publicly about this obscenity? coming up, our conversation with republican presidential candidate chris christie. christe i told myself i was ok with my moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis symptoms. with my psoriatic arthritis symptoms.

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welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it is 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. we have a packed hour ahead for you. we'll play part of our conversation with republican presidential candidate chris christie, the former new jersey governor covered a lot of ground this morning, including, how he went from a donald trump supporter to perhaps his fiercest critic. plus, the prospects of prison time for the former president and how christie is making his pitch to voters.

we begin this hour with the nato summit in lithuania. president biden is there meeting with leaders for a gathering that could change the course of the war in ukraine and is already reshaping the alliance. the president will head to hill helsinki to meet with leaders of finland. josh, what's the latest there? >> reporter: willie, good morning. this has been a win so far for the nato allies and president biden, in that they were able to get that agreement on letting sweden into nato from turkey, the major holdout. when i spoke to you yesterday from london, it was unclear whether they were going to be able to get that breakthrough in time for this summit. the turks were still opposed to that move, but they were able to get an agreement overnight that has yielded the way for the 32nd member of the nato alliance. that has allowed the allies to

publicly show they're in a strong position and getting even stronger. behind the scenes, the summit has been filled with wrangling with what they're going to do about ukraine wanting to join the nato alliance. they are going to try to move the ball forward toward eventually allowing ukraine in, but certainly not say that ukraine is going to join imminently. what that timeline looks like and what steps ukraine still must take before coming part of the nato alliance, given the fact that it is currently in an active war with russia, has been a matter of a lot of disagreement with the allies, with president biden saying just a few days ago that ukraine was not yet ready to join nato. as president biden met here with nato secretary general stoltenberg, he spoke about this issue of what the allies need to say about ukraine entering the

alliance. take a listen. >> adding finland and sweden to nato is consequential and your leadership really matters. we agree on the language that you proposed relative to the future of ukraine being able to join nato. we're looking forward to a continued united nato. >> reporter: you hear the president saying we agree on the language. we still don't know what the language is going to be. neither apparently is president zelenskyy, who is calling it absurd that the nato alliance cannot simply invite ukraine now. he says he's worried that is leaving room for the west to essentially trade not letting ukraine into nato in terms of future negotiations with the russians. we expect president zelenskyy is

likely to attend this summit in the next 24 hours or so. that will be a key moment to try to paper over this agreement and show that this western alliance is still standing strongly behind ukraine. >> josh, we just heard secretary general stoltenberg and president biden standing together in unity, but you mentioned earlier that there are disagreements among some allies about the entrance of ukraine into nato. how thick are those disagreements? is there any sense that some might be more lasting than other nations? >> reporter: certainly the u.s. and germany, for example, have been some of the more strong voices in the last week or so pushing back on quick admission of ukraine into nato. some of the countries that are really on russia's doorstep in eastern europe have been much more forward leaning on it, it's time now. there are signs throughout the

city of the host for this nato summit saying, while you're taking the bus waiting to get to the summit, ukraine is waiting to get into nato. some of the concerns have to do with the in fact if you enter into a collective defense agreement with ukraine as they are in an active war with russia, that essentially obligates this entire alliance into direct military conflict with russia. there are also concerns president biden and other leaders have been expressing about steps that you have to take to be able to join nato that ukraine has not, according to them, yet met, both in terms of military readiness but also democracy, transparency, good governance steps they want to see ukraine take before it is a fully fledged member of the alliance. >> josh lederman live from the nato summit, thank you so much. we spoke earlier today with

admiral john kirby. i asked him about the practical impact of having sweden in nato. >> the immediate practical impact is going to be this is a very capable military, strong, modern, technoically adept. they're going to bring a lot of significant capability to bolster nato's eastern flank. it's a big development. >> admiral, cluster bombs are a pretty controversial topic. did the ukrainians ask specifically for cluster weapons, or did the united states just empty out the ordinance to get them to ukraine? >> it's to bridge a higher capacity to produce what we call normal conventional military shells. this is a gunfight there, quite literally. they are trying to work their way through minefields as

they're being fired at. these cluster munitions will give them a bridging capability while we get our own production ramped up. it is something that certainly the ukrainians have been using throughout this war. they've gotten them from other sources, not from the united states, because it was a difficult decision president biden had to make. for us, it came down to keeping them in the fight and not allowing them to go defenseless in the middle of a gunfight. >> the president was made aware of the fact that the shelf life of cluster weapons is a long, long time, and the dangers posed to the public five or ten years from now from cluster weapons and the particles left in the ground, that's a tough decision to make, no? >> very much so. the president biden said himself this is not an easy decision or something he did quickly without a lot of careful thought. we would make two points here. one is that the dud rate, the

failure rate of the cluster munitions we're going to be providing is exceedingly low, less than 2.5%. by comparison, the russian dud rate of the cluster munitions they're using in ukraine is about 30 to 40%. so far more duds are going to be on the battlefield. number two, we're going to work with ukrainians through and past this war after it's over to work on demining efforts to make it as safe as possible. the last thing i'd say is, well, yes, there is an inherent potential danger to civilians on the battlefield because of these bomblets that didn't explode, i think we can all agree that the risk is far greater if the counteroffensive fails, if they can't defend their own territory. they are being killed every day by iranian drones and cruise missiles and, yes, cluster

munitions that the russians are using indiscriminately. the ukrainians are using these to win back their sovereignty. >> let's move from europe to china. can you give me any progress updates on the chinese military communicating with the american military, obviously the two most important militarily, economically, diplomatically, two most important countries on the planet right now. their militaries have to talk to each other. any updates? are we moving any closer after the treasury secretary went to china? >> i wish i could tell you good news on that front, joe. i can't. unfortunately, the military lines of communication are still not open. it was never the purpose of secretary yellen's trip to open that up.

secretary yellen had some good exchanges with the chinese on economic issues and trade issues. we hope we can get there hopefully soon. to your larger point, joe, i mean, this is a time of great tension in the relationship particularly on a security front between our two militaries in the indo-pacific, the south china sea, the taiwan strait. >> help us understand. they'll talk to blinken, yellen, bill gates, any business person that has 15 cents in their pocket that wants to do business with them, but they won't actually communicate with our military? why? >> they would tell you that the united states' activity in supporting taiwan's self-defense and our activity in freedom of

navigation operations that are aggravating the situation. of course, we see it quite differently. they have been aggressive, they are intimidating their neighbors, they are making false claims to territory and air space that don't belong to them and they're trying to expand their occupation. we're going to continue to support our allies and partners there. >> so they won't do that. let me ask you something, though. with all the back and forth with china and all the flexing and the whining about speakers of the house talking to leaders of taiwan, something that's gone on for years now, has the united states changed its china policy? is it not identical to what it's

been, i guess, since we normalized relations in 1969. nothing's changed, has it? >> no, sir. since well before you were a member of congress, joe, there's no change to our one china policy. we don't support independence for taiwan. we support taiwan's self-defense. we're going to continue to provide arms sales so they can defend themselves. we're not supporting any change to the status quo that could be done unilaterally, either by force or any side. because nothing has changed about our one china policy, there really should be no reason for china to be upset about the support for taiwan when it's something we've been doing for roughly 50 years now. >> our extensive conversation this morning with national

security council spokesman john kirby. some other stories making headlines this morning, hollywood actors may soon join screen writers on the picket lines. the union is working to reach a contract deal with major studios. the two sides are haggling over the same issues that caused the writers guild of america to go on strike in may. that includes higher wages and guardrails around the use of artificial intelligence. if a deal is not reached by midnight wednesday, the actors will go on strike, making it the first time in 63 years both groups are out at the same time. a new study shows progress in reading and math for children in third through eighth grade has stalled over the past school year. tests taken this spring were analyzed and found most students had a slower than average growth in math and reading compared to

kids before the pandemic. researchers now believe the learning gaps that were created during the pandemic may be widening. in order to catch up, students need about an extra four months of math and reading lessons on top of their regular class time. a new york judge has ruled steve bannon must pay nearly $500,000 in late legal fees. the law firm argued bannon has only paid about $375,000 out of the more than $850,000 he has been billed. attorneys from the firm represented bannon between november 2020 and november 2022, first in federal court in new york. that's when bannon was accused of scheming to defraud donors who wanted to build a wall along the u.s. southern border. bannon's codefendants were convicted, but he never stood trial in that case because he

was pardoned by donald trump. bannon has been hit with state charges related to the fraud allegation by the manhattan's district attorney's office. he's scheduled for trial there next may. he eventually was convicted of criminal contempt of congress and sentenced to four months in jail, but the sentence was stayed while he appeals that conviction. his current attorney says his team plans to appeal that ruling. next, our conversation with republican presidential candidate chris christie. we'll play for you what christie says donald trump goes to bed thinking about every night and how those thoughts might impact the federal indictment against him. impact the federal indictment against him. subway refreshed everything. and now, they're slicing their meats fresh.

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♪♪ there it is. the sun is up in seattle, 6:19 where 14 hours from now the first pitch of the major league baseball all star game will be thrown. starting for the american league, gerrit cole of the new york yankees. ohtani is not going to pitch, but he'll be there hitting. what else are you excited about tonight? all star game in seattle tonight. earlier this morning here we were joined in studio by republican presidential candidate, the former new jersey governor chris christie, to discuss his efforts to win the party's nomination and in the process take down donald trump. here is a part of that conversation. >> we all got fooled eight years ago into this idea by all of us, me, marco rubio, jeb bush, john

kasich that there was an establishment lane and then there was a more conservative lane and that somehow at the ncaa tournament we were going to advance from those brackets to face the winner. by the time we got done fighting with each other, donald trump had won the nomination. it was over. to me, there's only one lane and donald trump is at the head of that lane, and if you want to win, you've got to go through him. i think of all the other folks in this race, the fact is that if they think that just by standing there and ignoring donald trump that they're going to beat him, i could tell them from experience eight years ago not going to happen. here's what i think republican voters deserve more than anything else. they deserve the truth. certainly not going to get that from him. and they deserve results on the issues they care about. not going to get that there. he said he was going to replace obamacare. he didn't. he said he was going to build a

wall and make mexico pay for it. he built 47 miles of wall in four years and we haven't gotten our first peso. he added $6 trillion to the national debt. we need results for the republican primary voters who care about those things. he's not the guy that's going to deliver it. >> th republicans know all that stuff and they still are all in with him. do you hear any cracks in that support? >> yeah. there are concerns he can't beat joe biden. the interesting thing is if you saw the interview he gave yesterday in the nevada globe and they asked him, well, you lost nevada in 2016 and 2020. no republican has won it since 2004. what's your strategy to win it in 2024? >> he said, well, actually i did

win in 2016 and 2020 by a lot. that strategy is not going to work. it's like that old country song. are you going to believe me or your lyin' eyes? this act is getting old. also he's never been attacked from inside the republican party in an effective way by someone who knows him. >> wasn't 2020 a little late to see the light? >> elections are about choices. we've had this conversation a number of times before. i didn't want hillary clinton to be president and i didn't want joe biden to be president. now, everyone is going to have their different breaking point based upon your own sensibilities. for me, it was election night 2020 when he stood in the east room of the white house and said the election was stolen at 2:30 in the morning when all the votes weren't counted and he had no basis to say it.

when you undercut the white house. he was asked how are you going to win back suburban voters? he said first off, i didn't lose in 2020. we don't need a candidate who's going to continue to look backwards. >> you have disagreements with joe biden on policy. on the other side you're making the case that donald trump is hurting the foundations of the country. how do you choose donald trump over joe biden in that case? >> that's why i'm running, is because i don't want the choice to be donald trump against joe biden. i've already said i answered mike's question as directly as i could. this is an awful choice. the last poll i saw was 70% of

the american people don't want the choice to be between joe biden and donald trump. let's face it, president biden is too old for this job, in my opinion. he's just not up to it anymore. >> does that make donald trump too old too? >> yeah. i said both of them are too old. we do not need a choice in 2024 between two candidates who are combined 160 years old. i'm sorry. there will be some people out there who will use the phrase ageist. guilty. i think you get to a certain age and you shouldn't be president of the united states, because the job is too hard. >> we have two indictments for donald trump, one in manhattan, one around the mar-a-lago documents, both serious in their own regards. potentially more coming around january 6th and in the state of georgia. how serious do you believe these cases are against him? >> his conduct there is reprehensible. i want people to understand this. he was given 18 months to return

those documents voluntarily. 18 months. they asked him privately, quietly, respectfully. he lied, denied and obstructed. he obstructed a grand jury subpoena. he lied to his own lawyers, hid documents from his own lawyers so they wouldn't turn over documents to the government. then ultimately complains in a post he put up yesterday that the raid on his home was a violation of his fourth amendment rights. he generally has really crappy lawyers. let me give them a little advice. when they get a court order from a united states district court judge, it's not a violation of your fourth amendment rights. in fact, if you had done the simple thing that i think almost any other american would have done, which would have been to give the documents back, he wouldn't be prosecuted.

he's in big trouble there. if he takes this case to trial and he's convicted, which i believe he would be, then he's facing jail time. part of what the department of justice has always done under all of the attorneys general that i've seen in my lifetime is, if we offer you a plea, which i'm certain they will, and you turn it down and you take us to trial and you're convicted, that judge is sending you to jail. i think that's what he goes to bed every night thinking, every night. all this bravado and everything else, i've known him for 22 years. when i was doing these cases in new jersey and i would put political figures in jail, he would say to me, i could never do that, i could never go to jail. i'm telling you, no matter what he says, no matter how he's bragging and going on and on about not being afraid, he goes to bed every night thinking about the sound of that jail cell door closing behind him.

the point of all that is to say when push comes to shove, i'm not so sure he won't take a plea. because if that's the only way he knows he can avoid prison, i think he just may. that's what republican voters need to think about. you could be confronted with that issue with someone who maybe even is your party's nominee. there's no reason for us to give joe biden that type of tilted playing field to play on. at this point in 2015, donald trump was at 4%. nobody thought donald trump was going to be the republican nominee for president. there's a lot of campaign to go here. i said this to a group of folks at the reagan institute this week in aspen, because i got asked that question by a member of the audience. i said how many of you supported

jeb bush in 2015 at this time? two-thirds raced their hands. i said, how many of you in 2008 supported rudy giuliani at this point? about half of them raised their hands. i said, you people suck at picking who the favorite is going to be. they all burst out laughing. i said, all of us do. nobody when donald trump came down the escalator thought it was going to be him. by the way, for you democrats out there who think you cornered the market, at this point in 2007, barack obama was 34 points behind hillary clinton. how about instead of trying to pick the winner now, how about doing what you said some people did when they watched my cnn panel and say who do we want to be president, who do we think has the common sense and the right experience to govern to be president in these times? then let's get behind that person to try to make them the president. because that's happened before and it can happen again.

they said barack obama revolutionized online fund-raising because he had a great website. no, no, that's not why. it's because he had a message that the american people wanted to hear and then they found his website to give him money. so my view on this is, you have to be patient and persistent. remember this on august 23rd that first debate, i'll be there and i believe donald trump will be there too, because i don't believe his ego will permit him for one minute to have anybody to think he's scared to be on the stage with me. so he'll be there and we'll be the only two people on that stage that have ever run for president before. that matters. i'm going to be patient and persistent. we're going to win new hampshire and we're going to win the nomination. and then we'll come back here after i'm the nominee and we'll talk about this conversation. >> some portions of our 40-minute conversation earlier on "morning joe" with former new

jersey governor chris christie. next, an update on the brutal and dangerous heat impacting millions out there today, including in phoenix on the verge of setting new records. plus, a lot of buzz around the new app threads. the new app threads.

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35 past the hour. user traffic on twitter has slowed since the launch of meta's threads almost a week ago. while sign-ups on mark zuckerberg's latest social media platform surpassed 100 million over the weekend, elon musk's twitter appears to have taken a hit. matthew prince, the ceo of the internet services company cloud

flare tweeted on sunday twitter traffic tanking and shared a graph indicating that twitter's ranking dropped from 22nd place to 39th place over the course of 2023 so far. according to a data company that specializes in web analytics, web traffic to twitter was down 5% for the first two full days threads was available compared with the previous week. we'll be watching that. florida is now america's inflation hot spot, mainly due to sky high housing costs. in metro areas with more than 2.5 million residents, the miami/fort lauderdale/west palm beach region topped the list with a 9% inflation rate according to the consumer price index. the tampa/st. petersburg/clearwater area had the third highest inflation rate

in the country at 7.3%. the national average is 4%. and we are witnessing a once-in-a-thousand-year weather event in the northeast with deadly flash floods which destroyed dozens of roads and wiped out sections of the commuter railroad. kristin dahlgren has the details. >> reporter: overnight an emergency unfolding in vermont's capital city, the river cresting at 21 feet, inundating the streets with water. the catastrophic floods are the worst in decades. the national weather service says the river has reached major flood stage, a serious threat to life and property. across the state, the view from over head showing entire towns devastated. >> a report of a vehicle submerged underwater with the headlights on. they believe it may be occupied. >> reporter: this as more than 50 people had to be plucked from the raging rivers by swift water

rescue teams. property destroyed. you can see here remains from a house sent floating down a stream monday afternoon. entire communities still cut off by flash floods. >> this is an all-hands-on-deck response. >> reporter: it's the same system that crippled new york state. >> there's no words. even unbelievable doesn't explain it. >> reporter: while cleanup is just beginning after what the governor called a once-in-a-thousand-year weather event. >> we are in the midst of an extraordinary weather event that has devastated communities. >> reporter: millions are now bracing for what today will bring with extreme weather still hitting the rest of the country. damaging winds and hail in the west overnight while extreme heat is gripping the south from california to florida. the index could soar into the triple digits. >> a heat wave is gripping the

southern united states. phoenix will break a record 18-day streak of 110-plus degrees if the heat wave continues through july 18th, which meteorologists say is likely. last night the city tied the daily high overnight temperature matching the record 91 degrees set one day earlier. this as florida suffers through its hottest year in modern history with little signs of relief. as the ocean waters surrounding the sunshine state have reached downright shocking temperatures. up north in canada, temperatures hit 100 degrees in the northwest territories. the hottest temperature ever measured north of 65 degrees latitude in the western hemisphere, an extreme weather historian tells the "washington post." the extreme temperatures have

exacerbated the country's unprecedented wildfires. a record 22 million acres have burned so far according to canadian officials. coming up, a new book explores the history of the drug epidemic that gripped minority communities in the 1980s. that author joins us next on "morning joe." r joinuss next on "morning joe." my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪ ♪ enough was enough. i talked to an asthma specialist and found out my severe asthma is driven by eosinophils, a type of asthma nucala can help control. now, fewer asthma attacks and less oral steroids that's my nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection for severe eosinophilic asthma. nucala is not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor.

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to become a guardian of liberty. as the country faces a drug epidemic with a rise in overdoses tied to fentanyl and opioids, our next guest is looking back at another drug crisis in america. donovan ramsey is the author of a new book "when crack was king." also with us for the conversation, host of "politics nation" our good friend the reverend al sharpton. donovan, congratulations on the book. when you say misunderstood era, what did people get wrong about this crack epidemic in america?

>> i really think that people misunderstand first what crack was and people really have no clue of the outsized impact that it had in shaping our society, both ideas of inner cities, our criminal justice system and the very vulnerable people who ended up addicted to crack. >> where does this era begin for you as you dig into the history of it and its long legacy that continues today in terms of sentencing and policing and everything else? how do you define the beginning of the crack era? >> that was one of the hardest things to do, was to figure out when exactly did the crack epidemic start. i concluded that you had to go back to the devastation after the civil rights movement, after the decline of the black power movement, all of the disaffection, a word that we use often now when it comes to other sort of addiction trends. but people in cities, black and

brown folks in particular, were disaffected after dr. king was assassinated, after malcolm x was assassinated, and we didn't have a whole lot to show for that effort of the civil rights movement. that's where i think the real seeds of the crack epidemic were planted. >> rev, you lived through this in new york city in the early days. you saw the ravages of the crack epidemic. what was it like? >> it was frightening, because you were seeing people that could literally go in the corner store and buy crack over the counter. when we were telling people this was going on, they didn't believe us. i had a youth group then called the national youth movement. we said go inside with us, just one of you, have a kid put $5 on the counter and they'd give them crack. that's how much it was accessible. and it was clearly something and

donovan said he was aware of that, but it was clearly something that had overtaken our community. >> donovan, you were born in 1987. that's really just past the beginning of the crack epidemic. of all the negative impacts this had on our country, where would you rate the negative impact it would perhaps indeed have on policing and law enforcement? >> as you point out, as somebody raised in the '80s and '90s, i had no idea just how much our law enforcement system had been shaped by the crack epidemic. policies like stop and frisk when it came to the entire tactic of broken windows policing, those are crack era policing tactics that i thought were normal. my life growing up in a neighborhood that was hard hit by crack was dealing with the fallout of seeing people be addicted, dealing with the violence that accompanied the

drug trade, but also dealing with overpolicing that made me feel even less safe. >> mika. >> i just was curious about your personal reflections on the process of putting this together. in the l.a. times you said at times it felt like the story was going to kill you, that it was so hard to put the crack epidemic into words. can you tell us about that? >> the reason i think that a book like this, an authoritative history of the crack epidemic hasn't been written yet is because it's ugly stuff. it really revealed to me some of the nastiness about our failure to live up to our social contract as a nation. it revealed to me lots of cracks in our social safety net. but also the ways that we treated each other, that we

really treated the most vulnerable people at a period where they really needed help. by the end of writing this book, evidence a nervous wreck from having listened to hundreds of stories of people who were addicted and who sold crack and the mayor of baltimore who really tried to pull back his city. and i'm still kind of shaken by what i learned, but i hope when people read this book that they're able to also process some of their own memories of the period and some of their own feelings about some of these really big issues. >> it's also important what you said that we understand the context of today that came out of that, because i remember we would go and paint red x's to show they're selling crack in there. we had pushback from some of the people. then when we came with these new kinds of laws as a result of crack, many in the civil rights

community, which i was a part of at the time as a young youth leader, they were for these mandatory sentences and these hard laws where you'd get five years if you were found with crack, but crack, but loose cocaine, no mandatory laws. i think that, what you're talking about, where we see these kinds of things now started in the whole crack epidemic period and overpolicing and overreacting is -- is -- undercuts the community as bad as the problem itself. >> and we're still living with it, right? so, you know, under the obama administration and the department of justice, under eric holder, they were able to reduce that 100 to 1 sentencing disparity to 18 to 1. but the fact that, you know, we have so much more compassion for drug addicts, the fact that we know so much more about crack than we did now, and that disparity still exists suggests

there is still some unwillingness, that crack still looms large in the imagination enough that we have it become fair as it relates to how we sentence for those substances. >> do you see a connection, donovan, to what we're seeing today with opioids, with fentanyl, the latest drug epidemic in this country? have we learned as a country from the crack epidemic how to treat people differently, who are addicted to drugs? >> i don't think we have. that's part of why i wrote this book. you can look at a year ago when the biden administration decided that they wanted to do some funding for hard reduction programs and they were going to fund kits, things like narcan, a life saving drug for people experiencing opioid overdose and things like fentanyl test strips and one of the line-items in those kits were also pipes. and the conservative folks on the right that they ran with that and the headline was joe

biden is giving out crack pipes. and that terrified people enough, despite the fact that the crack epidemic is over, that it almost completely derailed this effort to save people's lives when it comes to fentanyl, which is really ravaging communities across the country. we just haven't learned the lesson that there is still so much shame, there is so much fear that we refuse to get right when it comes to the policies. >> yeah. it is a fascinating book. tells the story in many ways of the country back then and now. the new book is called "when crack was king: the people's history of misunderstood era." donovan x. ramsey, thank you for bringing it to us. congrats on the book. >> thank you for having me. >> we'll be right back with more "morning joe." me. >> we'll be right back with more "morning joe." thing you love. rsv could cut it short. ♪ rsv is a contagious virus that usually causes mild symptoms but can cause more severe infections that may lead to hospitalizations... ...in adults 60 and older...

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this is still fun. >> it is fun. i told you this earlier, i was honored and pleased to be -- i regard the two greatest home run derbies of all time at the all-star game -- >> maguire at fenway. >> 1999 and then yankee stadium, 2008. >> josh hamilton. >> it went out of the ballpark. >> all-star game tonight in seattle. that does it for us this morning. ana cabrera picks up the coverage in two minutes. morning. ana cabrera picks up the coverage in two minutes. from prom dresses to workouts and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination.

good morning and thanks so much for joining us. it is 10:00 eastern. i'm ana cabrera reporting from new york. right now, president biden overseas for a nato summit that could reshape the alliance. that gathering of world leaders beginning with some big news. sweden nowet