late last night we got the clearest sign yet that donald trump's third run for the presidency is nothing more than a legal defense strategy. a filing from trump's legal team asks judge aileen cannon to delay indefinitely the start of this trial. quote, while timing is important in any criminal matter, it could be hugely consequential in trump's case in which he stands accused of illegally holding onto 31 classified documents after leaving the white house and obstructing the government's repeated efforts to reclaim them. if the trial is pushed back until after the election and trump wins, he could try to pardon himself after taking office or have his attorney general dismiss the matter entirely. the times goes on to report that trump has seen winning the presidency as a literal get out of jail free card against what is a steadily mounting pileup of legal exposure. trump currently faces in total

71 felony counts in two jurisdictions, in new york and in south florida, to say nothing of a grand jury in fulton county, georgia, that may indict trump as early as next week, also a federal grand jury in d.c. investigating trump's role in the january 6th insurrection. in this case, the documents case, trump's attorneys are asking for trump to get special treatment, to be treated unlike every other american, to take into consideration trump's status as the frontrunner for the republican presidential nomination. the lawyers write that trump is, quote, currently the likely republican party nominee. this undertaking requires a tremendous amount of time and energy and that effort will continue until the election on november 5th, 2024. quote, mr. nauta's job requires him to accompany trump on most campaign trips around the country. the schedule makes trial

preparation with both defendants challenging. whether judge cannon buys into this idea that the ex-president and walt nauta are too busy running for president and staffing a would-be president to prepare for and stand trial remains to be seen. special counsel jack smith, though, is not without options of his own. the "new york times" reports, judges have wide latitude to set schedule for trial and scheduling orders are typically not subject to appeals by higher courts. that said, given the extraordinary nature of trump's case and the potential implications of a delay, prosecutors under mr. smith could in theory try to come up with a rationale to try to challenge a scheduling decision. that court has already rebuked judge cannon's decisions in the past in this very case. a bid by trump to delay trial in the classified documents case

until after the 2024 election is where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters. "new york times" washington correspondent glenn thrush is back. also joining us is fbi agent pete strzok and former congressman from florida, david jolly is here. glenn, the universe of people who are surprised is a universe of zero humans. but i wonder if that includes doj. >> oh no, i don't think anyone is surprised. you know, these filings don't tend to be enthralling reading, but this was a pretty well-written, well-articulated and very readable -- i'm giving it a book review here, i'm sorry. >> it's trump. >> it was just a very concise explanation of the range of the political and legal arguments with a much more heavy emphasis

on political arguments. they make a lot of references to the presidential records act and suggest they'll have this novel legal argument that the presidential records act supercedes other things in the indictment including the espionage act. the core of this is that the fact that he's an active presidential candidate and the fact that walt nauta is by his side creates a different set of circumstances. and then there's other larger arguments that the sheer weight of the evidence, 833,000 documents have been presented thus far through the discovery process, makes it really tough for him and his legal team to deal with. now, that said, i mean, one of the interesting dynamics is in making that particular argument they cite the case of former panamanian dictator manuel

noriega, saying noriega needed more time to get his case together as an example of the complexity of the prosecution. but he really is in this particular document throwing everything on the table. it seems from our perspective that he is challenging judge cannon to show her cards immediately. so we're going to find out within the next couple of weeks precisely what she's inclined to do as a result of her response to this document. >> and, glenn, does the government respond in writing? are we awaiting a counter argument from the government? because i think the election, you could argue it either way. he's running to be the commander in chief and to have access to every classified document the government possesses and creates and produces. he's sort of client number one for all of that. it seems to go to the heart of the job he thinks he's applying for again. >> also, to that point, there's

sort of a moral hazard question, which is, does running for president and getting a lot of popular support essentially mean that you can set your own timetable in terms of an accusation of criminality. it's one thing to sort of understand there are special circumstances. it's another thing to grant someone special privileges. it's hard to discern from this document which one of those they're requesting. you could easily see jack smith and his legal team making the counter argument. remember, this meeting for speed, the fact that smith is pushing ahead expeditiously, which was in his press release when he took the job, it's part of his mandate. he wants to get as much done before the political season kicks in, which is why he's set such an aggressive trial timetable and would like to at least on paper get this thing rolling before the end of the

year. >> there is nothing new, pete strzok, about donald trump wanting to use doj as his sort of personal legal defense department. what is new is running in front of the american public as the public is basically a human shield. he says vote for me and you will protect me from criminal accountability, from crimes that not only i think hillary clinton should have been locked up for, things she didn't do, but the very essence of being the country's commander in chief is on the line in the outcome of these rulings and in this case in general. i wonder what you make of all the power right now as we wait with bated breath to see what eileen cannon does, the power she has over determining whether we live in a country with two systems of justice, one for trump and one for everyone else. >> i haven't seen charged

individuals who are running for president. these aren't absurd arguments being made by his attorneys. there is something special about charging and bringing to trial somebody is presumptively the republican nominee for president. trump himself in 2016 said should hillary clinton be indicted, that might cause something along the lines of a constitutional crisis and she should consider dropping out of the race because it would be that damaging and severe. he's spoken about this exact issue and what he thinks somebody should do only when that person is his opponent. look, i think there is no question that if you can't charge somebody while they're president, if you can't charge someone they're running for the presidency, then what, you have a year and a half window where if there is a broad range of criminality, there is a brief window of time they can be

brought to trial? i think judge cannon has a lot of latitude. she doesn't need necessarily to agree to some indefinite postponement. the litigation surrounding classified information alone, that can take if trump is so inclined to slow it down, that can take months and months just to address the classified issues, notwithstanding any other pretrial litigation. i would be very surprised to see her say, you know, yes, this is delayed indefinitely. who knows? we're all guessing, but i have very little expectation that this trial is going to occur any time in 2023. >> wow. david jolly, let me show you chris christie's description of what trump is actually motivated by upright now as he lobs this filing in. >> if we offer you a plea, which i'm certain they will, and you turn it down and you take us to trial and you're convicted, that

judge is sending you to jail. i think that's what he goes to bed every night thinking, every night. all this bravado and everything else, i've known him for 22 years. when i was doing these cases in new jersey and i would put political figures in jail, he would say to me, i could never do that, i could never go to jail. i'm telling you, no matter what he says, no matter how he's bragging and going on and on about him not being afraid, he goes to bed every night thinking about the sound of that jail cell door closing behind him. >> this is something that i have understood to be the case with trump since he was running for president the first time. this is something i understood to be the impetus for his rage, his unbridled rage at jeff sessions when he recused from the russia investigation and allowed mueller to be appointed. this drove all the rageful tweets at road rosenstein, at

jim comey, at pete strzok, at lisa page, at annie mccabe. this terror is what has driven everything we've seen him do on the public stage, on the political stage. the irony, david jolly, in him arguing i'm going to be back on that political stage, you can't hold me accountable, is just rich. >> it is, nicole. donald trump is somebody we know who has these quiet fears. it manifests in his anger and outrage. i think chris christie also skipped over the former president's vanity, somebody who probably thinks he is above accountability. that is a toxic mixture in somebody facing the loss of liberty in new york as well as federally and potentially with additional charges in other jurisdictions. as you said, it surprised no one that he asked for a delay until after the election.

i think we need to break his argument in half on this for one very important reason. they are suggesting the delay is necessary because he's a candidate for the presidency, not because he's the president. if he was the president, you could understand the delay. becoming a candidate is a decision, an election that he has made in his personal life. every candidate has real-life stuff to deal with, jobs, home, perhaps legal proceedings. this is not new to be facing a legal proceeding while you're a candidate. so i don't think that argument will hold up. we know it's going to strain the courts. i think this is just leading the nation into something that i'm not sure we are fully prepared for yet, which this presidential cycle is going to strain justice as we know it in the united states and it's going to put some very important questions in front of the american people next november. if we view it through a political lens as partisan voters, we are going to miss the greater story, which is the

possibility of our democracy and justice in america fracturing next november. >> do you think that conversation will take place within the republican party? >> no, because i think their verdict's already in. look, there is no fact, no more indictments will change donald trump's hold on the party. the only unknown is a loss of liberty, which is why i think you're seeing donald trump ask for a delay. if you're an incumbent up by 30 points and indictments haven't hurt you, you don't want the risk of trial. you don't take that risk. other candidates competing against donald trump continue to nip at his heels on this issue, but it's not working. good for chris christie for continuing to call donald trump out on this issue. i'm not sure he will be an effective messenger on the republican primary. i think it is going to take

independents and republicans to say you are not going to be the president of the united states and, therefore, you will be facing justice in a court of law. >> you mentioned about the previewing of his defenses. he's coming back to what has become a noun and a verb in the presidential records act for him, but he's also going after the legitimate si of the special counsel. aside from the request for delay, the filing served as a preview of trump's legal strategy. they suggested they intended to challenge some of the charges he's facing by arguing that the presidential records act permitted trump to take documents with him from the white house. that interpretation of the law is at odds of how legal experts interpret it and was not successful during an extended legal battle last year over an outside arbiter put in place to reviewer materials from

mar-a-lago. trump's lawyers also suggested they might raise constitutional and statutory challenges. they laid the groundwork for questioning whether an impartial jury could be seated at the trial while trump was running for office. i'm sure there's a technical legal term for this, but it reads like spaghetti against the wall. is there more to it? >> i think it's a pretty much -- i can't think of a single argument they left in the cupboard. it's every box of spaghetti that was on the shelf. comes down toe cannon. trump views all of these encounters not in institutional terms or historical terms. he views each one of these as personal battles and personal

interactions. so my sense is he probably supports this approach by his legal team because it represents a direct test to judge cannon. he's a personality based politician and celebrity and public figure. so he is attempting to sort of water test what she will or will not accept. now, that said, judge cannon in talking with people who know about this, judge cannon has a fairly simple way out of all this. she doesn't really have to decide on the larger questions. she could say let's see how this proceeds and go motion by motion. if the motions take much longer thanexpected, then we'll move the other dates out. again, this is a pretty consequential period to sort of see what the road will bear.

>> pete, glenn's colleagues have done some reporting both on the available jurors around where the trial will take place as well as on judge aileen cannon's incredible lack of trial experience at all, let alone with dealing with classified materials. do you ever sit up at night and wonder why or whether this case had to be brought here? >> no. i mean, look, these were considerations that i am certain the department of justice and special counsel smith had in mind as they were trying to survey the landscape and figure out where they had alleged criminal activity they could prove. i'm certain they took a look at the various venues and it wasn't a determinative issue about what the jury pool might look like, but i think the reality of what we've seen in the indictment,

those acts clearly are linked to mar-a-lago. could you draw it into a broad pattern of activity that begin when he removed documents from washington, d.c. certainly. i think the charges really land in florida. we'll see what that jury pool looks like. one final note. all this is sort of delay and motions and argument back and forth. when we hit trial, that's the point at which double jeopardy attaches. once we have a trial under way, if donald trump is acquitted, that's it. this back and forth about what may or may not be done, all of this is sort of putting us on the path to actually starting that trial. >> no one is going anywhere. when we come back, twin blows to the house republicans' crusade against hunter biden involving

both the trump-appointed prosecutor in the case and the gop's so-called star witness. also ahead for us, on capitol hill a closely watched, fully attended senate hearing into the proposed merger between the pga and saudi arabia-backed liv golf. the group is hoping to sew that partisanship will show no part in their deal. their deal. on t later in the broadcast, news today about two new grand juries being seated in fulton county, georgia, and what it could mean about a potential possible third indictment for the ex-president. indictment for the ex-president.

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two of the major pillars that prop up the republican fiction that president joe biden and his family are entangled in some sort of criminal enterprise are crumbling before their eyes. the first pillar, a so-called whistleblower who jim comer has called, quote, a very credible witness, has been charged by the justice department with acting as an unregistered foreign agent for the chinese government. on monday doj unsealed an indictment against him. among the charges, violating u.s. sanctions against iran, trafficking in arms and making false statements to federal agents. lutz has claimed that the

charges against him amount to political persecution. the second pillar to fall, trump-appointed federal prosecutor david weiss who was charged with investigating hunter biden, whose sweeping five-year investigation recently resulted in a plea deal over tax charges. weiss has come out and publicly refuted claims by a republican witness, an irs official, who claimed weiss had been prevented from bringing charges the way he wanted to in the husbander biden case. quote mr. weiss said he never asked the department officials to give him special counsel status contradicting testimony by the irs official, who said mr. weiss had sought that status and been turned down. we're back with glenn thrush, pete strzok and david jolly. glenn, let's start with mr. weiss. he's coming out with some pretty

specific refuting of allegations being furthered and solicited by republicans. does this settle this issue? >> it doesn't settle the issue, but what's becoming increasingly apparent is weiss is getting mighty frustrated with having to absorb all of this incoming fire and is actually quite unusually specific in this third letter he's sent to the hill. this one in particular had the quality of a note being wrapped around a brick being thrown through a window. he refutes the claim by the whistleblower gary shapley who was an irs agent working on the tax issues in the hunter biden investigation. he refutes this claim that he said to shapley in this meeting in october 2022, i'm getting

frustrated, i've tried to bring this case in washington and california and i can't get the local prosecutors to help out, so i'm thinking of becoming a special counsel asking merrick garland to be made a special counsel. he flat out refutes that account. garland has already been on the record saying that wasn't true. what it might be, and this is an intriguing possibility that we raised a couple weeks ago and that weiss addressed specifically in this last letter, is weiss did discuss with a senior career official at the justice department becoming a special attorney. special attorney is a much more limited designation. it simply means you can go into washington, go into california as a prosecutor from delaware and essentially have the right to operate as a prosecutor in the local area. does not seem at this point like he requested that, but the most

intriguing element of all of this was one line that was included in the press release sent out by weiss's office when they announced the hunter biden agreement. and that is that the investigation is ongoing. that, on one hand, keeps weiss from being hauled down in front of these committees to answer questions on an ongoing investigation. you're not supposed to do that, according to federal law. but it also indicates that he might not be entirely done with this investigation. we're going to find out a little more in about ten days when hunter biden appears in court for the first time and some more details of this agreement are made public. >> but there's no indication that merrick garland has put his thumb on the scale and told mr. weiss what he may or may not pursue, charge or continue to do? >> there's no indication that the two men have communicated on

this. i've been told explicitly they have not. i've been weiss does not have communications with senior justice department officials in garland's line. the deputy attorney general reports directly to him and then there's monaco's chief deputy marshall miller. we've been told that weiss has been communicating with a senior career official at the justice department who's sort of outside, a bit of a fire wall. whether or not there's been an internal communication that we're unaware of, i can't say. but at the moment it seems there has been no direct communication between weiss and garland on this. >> i'm going to go out on a limb and say something. i invite anyone on the right that watches this show regularly to prove me wrong.

i don't think any republican ingesting truth serum believes there's been any political interference by merrick garland in the hunter biden cases. i don't believe anyone who's watched merrick garland as a judge or watched his almost tediously deliberate leadership of doj thinks garland has any desire of anyone involved on his team to get involved in these cases. these cases are going to be what they are going to be. we haven't even dealt with the fact that their star witness has now been charged with, among other things, arms sales. the asymmetry of what the right can with a straight face pass off this as whatever this is, oversight or weaponization of hearings is absolutely off the hook. it is so thin. it is so badly sourced.

it is so poorly researched and poorly vetted that when you have to put into one block that both our star witness turned out to be a chinese spy violating iran sanctions and the prosecutor has sent a third letter that glenn describes as a letter wrapped in a brick, thrown through a window. they got nothing. >> that's right, which is why house republicans and conservative media including fox news should take this latest round of public humiliation and move on from the hunter biden investigation. this could be a good opportunity, because if you are kevin mccarthy's gop congress, you have been relying on the testimony of a foreign agent who was just arrested, not only relying on it, amplifying it and spreading propaganda from an unregistered foreign agent. speaker mccarthy, you and your chairs of your committees have been doing that. fox news, you have been amplifying that. i think the reason we're seeing the momentum shift in favor of hunter biden is because the

personal jeopardy matters of hunter biden, those in delaware subject to a plea agreement and those related to his arkansas paternity matter have largely be closed out. the only thing left is a political witch hunt from house republicans. what are they using for that witch hunt? disputed information from an unregistered foreign agent and testimony from some of the worst miscree ants of the dark side of politics. the only umbrage they're taking is in their own ignorance and malfeasance. this is a good time for them to move on. very importantly for the political landscape, as the delaware and arkansas matters are now seemingly closed out, this becomes a singular question and one the republicans keep falling on their face on every time they raise it in front of

the american people. >> it is stunning. thank you so much for starting us off today and for your time. up next for us, executives at the saudi arabia-backed liv golf were a no-show at today's congressional hearing investigating the merger with the pga. but they were able to write a sizable check to the trump doral golf club. the trump doral golf club. with the freestyle libre 2 system know your glucose level and where it's headed without fingersticks. manage your diabetes with more confidence and lower your a1c. it's covered by medicare for those who qualify. ask your doctor about the freestyle libre 2 system. ♪ tourists tourists that turn into scientists. tourists taking photos that are analyzed by ai. so researchers can help life underwater flourish. hey bud. wow. what's all this? hawaii was too expensive so i brought it here.

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today's hearing is about much more than the game of golf. it's about how a brutal, oppressive regime can buy and indeed even take over a cherished american institution to cleanse its public image. reportedly kills journalists, jailed and tortured dissidents, supported other terrorist activities including the september 11 attack on our nation. today is about sports washing. >> that is democratic senator richard blumenthal in today's subcommittee hearing into the saudi's proposed blockbuster deal with the pga golf tour. the merger was met with immediate backlash last month from inside and out of the sport itself, not least of which

includes saudi arabia's efforts to sports wash its reputation. after years of very serious accusations of human rights abuses as well as the government's involvement in the september 11th terrorist attacks. the jam-packed hearing room today included in the front row family members of 9/11 victims wearing 9/11 justice hats. senator blumenthal made an impassioned plea to the pga tour officials to decline the deal. its ceo basically called the merger a peace deal to, quote, protect an american institution. liv golf was not represented at the hearing today. the spokesman says he was unavailable because of scheduling conflicts. on the eve of today's hearing liv golf announced that of all the golf courses in the world, its $15 million season champion

will take place at none other than the trump doral golf club in florida for the second year in a row. the ex-president cozying up once again to the saudis as he marches closer and closer to the republican nomination. joining us is paul rycoff. i think you taught me this term sports washing many months ago and i heard it come out of senator blumenthal's mouth and i instantly thought of you. your reaction to today's hearing? >> some people think 9/11 is ancient history. just over 20 years ago about six blocks from where i'm sitting right now we were digging up the murdered bodies of americans. that was a little over 20 years ago. it's not over. our friends are dying every day, firefighters, first responders, people who were there are dying because of the long-term impacts

of 9/11. the people of pga and liv, in my view, are sellouts, cowards, traitors to their country and they're just blowing past a group of people they think are going to go away. we never forget and we also won't go away. what do you love more, golf or your country? what do you love more, money or your country? we're not going to back down. the pga should turn this down. every player should leave. americans should boycott the pga. the president and congress should do all they can to block it. it's that simple. >> the problem is a year ago when the pga didn't want its players to join the liv golf tour they made the argument you're making. the problem is actually almost more insidious. they know you're right. they just flip-flopped. they were against liv golf before they were for it. so it is all about the money.

how do you make sure everyone understands that? >> we do what we've had to do, unfortunately, for 20 years. we shame them. and we ratchet up the volume and tell our stories and organize and fight back. people hopefully haven't forgotten a couple years ago we had to fight for health benefits. if not for jon stewart, they would have forgotten us then. high school kids who were poisoned after 9/11 are still dealing with the health impacts. we've had to do this every view years against huge opposition. now we've got to do it against a sports league. we're going to win. we're going to shame you. we're not going to go away. we're not going to slink off into the dance. to all the people inside the pga, leave, tiger woods, rory

mcilroy, you can leave, you can get funding from other places. you don't have do this. think about your country, think about the families that not only lost people 20 years ago but continue to lose people every day and show us what you're made of. this is about your country, your community and being on the right side of history. >> david jolly, one of the real fissures used to be in this real politic with the saudis. trump basically belly flopping into their arms and them into his golf courses, jared kushner awash in saudi money suggests that the republican party doesn't care anymore. do you think that's right? >> i do. the geopolitical and national security implications of this can't be overlooked. to your point, presidents used to have some influence over american culture. imagine a world today in which all the political leaders,

donald trump included and republicans included and democrats were the ones saying, hey, pga, don't do this, stop it. this is anathema to american culture and values. we see a regime in the donald trump camp that is open arms to the saudis. you have to revisit the financial prosperity that donald trump has received from the saudis, $2 billion from jared kushner as he walked out of the white house for a private investment fund for which he reportedly received $25 million personally every year probably in perpetuity. we know of donald trump's profit from the liv relationship now with the huge tournament and the other profit from his club in bedminster. we know what donald trump did while he was in office, not just around khashoggi, but in unlocking billions of dollars of arms trading with the saudis.

donald trump did that. and when he left office, the saudis gave the trump family and the trump empire billions upon billions of dollars. donald trump is asking to be president again. today's hearing may have been around golf, but it's around a much larger question that donald trump will have to carry into the election. >> when i did a little bit of reporting when the story first broke, folks in and out of golf and the pga world said that trump was not a factor. that doesn't appear to be right on re-examination. i think everyone is hedging a little bit. i want to press both of you on where we're heading. i mean, what is the national extension of what we're watching today on capitol hill, all the while the brazen decision. e bra. with your hearing, if you start having a little trouble, you're concerned that it's going to cost you money. to this day i only paid what i had to pay

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♪ tourists tourists that turn into scientists. tourists taking photos that are analyzed by ai. so researchers can help life underwater flourish. ♪ you have a lot of options right now, correct? >> senator, if we chose one of those options, we would still be facing a real threat that liv golf and the 700 $ billion public investment fund would continue to recruit our top players. >> but, mr. price, players have stood by you. these players who stood by you are heros. they deserve our thanks. and i am betting, because i

never want to bet against america, that america will be on your side, thick or thin. >> senator blumenthal pressing the pga tour coo on what are the options they still have and could have found before locking themselves up with the liv tour. paul, when you say you're not going to let something go, i have learned to listen to you. what is the natural extension of this? and how does it look that there's just no hesitation at all to announce the tour event at donald trump's golf course on the eve of a hearing we are to presume they're taking seriously? doesn't look like it to me. >> it looks very colludy. it looks bad for our national integrity and the soul of our nation. do these people have any honor?

do they have any integrity? how do they explain this to your children and their grandchildren? the message to the world is, well, our major sports leagues are for sale, the white house is for sale, the president is for sale. what's next, the department of defense, the pentagon? i mean, this is a really dangerous place for us to go. if i'm vladimir putin, i'm watching this saying all i got to do is send bags of money to america and i can just take over. this is really about the soul and the guts of our country and what kind of country we want to be. to anyone in national leadership, corporate or political, you've got to show us where you stand. either you're with us or you're against us. either you're with america or you're with our enemies. i don't think the stakes could be any higher. it's about so much more than golf. it's about the soul of america. >> it is also a symptom of what happens when one of the two parties decides to say we don't care about character, we don't care about patriotism, we don't give a rat's behind about

classified documents found at mar-a-lago, we don't care about inciting an insurrection. it's when one of the two stopped functioning as a partner in protecting national security. this is the national extension of that. >> yeah, a party that shattered the public trust. of that. >> yeah, a public party ttrust.hat shatte the public saudi arabia is acting as a rational actor and they see donald trump as theirnd mark. you see them moving tournaments to donald trump's mproperties. you seeum them handing $2 billi to jared kushner cozy go up with the trump enterprise. when pga says we can't compete against them. perhaps they should have a greater allegiance to american values but they're following the money as t well.y public trust comes in when you talk about elected officials and certainly someone who was president of the united stateso and asking to be president of the united states, again, is it prudent as a candidate to be c president of the united states to accept this benefito from saudi arabia given all the open

national security and geopolitical questions.ec the answer is a bright line no. that's where republicans and donald trump have w shattered t american trustat and flaunt tha arrogance that they're not responsible for the public trush anymore and what will you do about it?e we saw in 2016 as we saw enough voters on that platform. i think in at2024, it might be reason to reject him. >> and you wonder, is there a tipping point? are there enough things show the brazenness and disregard for u.s. national security? just amazing. thank you for spending the hour with us.en paul h will be back in the nexte hour. we'll talk with him about the republican senator who last night seemedor confused about wt he meant when he said white nationalists belong in the military.is don't go anywhere. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. we'll be ri. e ai-powered security that protects all of google also defends these services for everyone who lives here. ♪ - you like that bone?

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membership. they are both saying they would allow ukraine to join in the future and only when, quote, conditions are met. for his part, president zelenskyy who also arrived at the summit today pushed back against the lack of a time line calling it absurd. he is expected to meet with president biden tomorrow and will attend the inaugural meeting of the nato ukraine council which will give ukraine a voice on key issues. ukraine also received new commitments of military aid from germany, france and norway. we'll keep you updated on any new developments on this front. up next for us, a very big and potentially consequential move happening in fulton county, georgia today. don't go anywhere. georgia today. don't go anywhere. less static. less wrinkles. more softness. more freshness. bounce. it's the sheet. in america, we value our freedoms. and ceos, they're free to negotiate their salaries

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but in fulton, where they dumped ballots, you will find that you have many that aren't even signed and you have many that are forgeries. okay? you know that. you know that. you have no doubt about that. and you will find you will be at 11,779 within minutes because fulton county is totally corrupt. all i want to do is this. i just want to find 11,780 votes which is one more than we have. because we won the state. >> never gets old to listen to him committing crimes on an open line. hi again, everyone.

it's 5:00 in the east. president biden won the state. he broke the record for the state. it was a state trump was desperate not to lose. so much so he did that. he pressured the top election official, georgia's secretary of state to find what was coincidentally the exact number needed to reverse his defeat. that call that the expresident i know what the intricate fake elector's plot, and other potentially criminal acts, have been under investigation by fulton county's district attorney bonnie willis for two and a half years. a massive step forward today in her office bringing charges. today two grand juries in atlanta were selected and one is likely to consider criminal charges against the already twice indicted expresident and his allies. we know that because willis sent a letter almost two months ago to county officials signaling an indictment could come between

july 31st and august 18th. the atlanta journal constitution lays out the details of these grand juries. each panel will have 23 grand juror s plus alternates. both will work in secret and are expected to decide whether to hand up indictments in hundreds of cases. it is unclear which one will consider the much-anticipated election meddling case. at least 16 members must be present to conduct business. at least 12 grand jurors must vote for indictment. it has been a long time coming. in may of last year, there was a special grand jury. the special grand jury release ad final report that recommended charges for more than a dozen people. although the name of those individuals have remained hidden from the public. last night our colleague spoke with former district attorney of georgia's dekalb county and she weighed in on what we can expect

timing wise as we look ahead. >> we believe that the charges, there is a substantial likelihood that there may be rico charges against a number of different folks and that may take time to present. it is certainly not the kind of thing that i would imagine could be presented in one day. particularly because grand jurors are allowed to ask questions. i think one of the unknown factors is who the witnesses might be to present the case. is it going to be one investigator from the d.a.'s office? is it going to be a series of witnesses? so all of those variables will help dictate how long it will take to present this case. >> georgia on the precipice of a possible third indictment of the expresident is where we begin this hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. the editor at large is back with us. also joining us, former assistant district attorney, and the chairman of the

african-american studies, our dear friend eddie is here. lucky for us, all three are msnbc contributors. let me start with you on the process of procedure. tell us what you would be doing if you were to select two grand juries. >> it's an open question, whether there may be witnesses and evidence still to present that they'll need to run it through two separate grand juries. ultimately, the vote will be consolidated. remember, this all starts back in a regular grand jury where the district attorney was presenting witnesses who were willing to come in without being subpoenaed. apparently, there were lots of witnesses who were resisting the voluntary witnesses and she impaneled the special grand jury with the subpoena power. a grand jury that can compel reluctant witnesses. now she will be heading back to a regular grand jury.

that being the grand jury with the power to indict. i suspect what the grand jury will get is lots of summary information. they will probably take in -- we do this when we have to present cases to a series of grand juries because some sit for a limited period of time. but our criminal investigations often go well beyond that period of time. we take the tran scripts. we turn them into summaries. we might have a 100-page transcript which includes all the testimony of a given witness. distill it down to a page or two of the most important information and present that summary to the ultimate grand jury who will be asked to vote out the indictment. and they will have the transcript available to them in case they want to pour through it. rarely do they want to do that. lots of summary information and perhaps a summary witness. law enforcement will be

presented to give an overarching view of everything that bonnie willis and her team has amassed during the course of its investigation. >> the foreperson for the special grand jury made a round of sometimes, bizarre appearances. i'm not going to replay it but she did talk about a list. she described it as not a short list. she said we saw 75 people and there are six pages of the report cut out, if you look at the page numbers. so my colleague presses about how many people, is it more than a dozen. she said yes. is bonnie willis bound by the findings of the special grand jury as she selects and impanels two new grand juries? >> i don't believe she is. she will do what she believes is right. i don't think she is beholden to the recommendations of the

special grand jury. i have a feeling they will be extremely instructive and she may very well completely adopt them and follow them. it has become pretty clear that we're going to see indictments in august. the moment that became clear to me was when i saw district attorney willis do something that was extraordinary, asking the judges of fulton county to clear their dockets. she specifically asked the judges to set no trials and no in-person hearings or proceedings during that two-week period from i guess the week of august 7th and the week of august 14th. you don't make that kind of extraordinary request unless you contemplate a whole lot of people having to be run through the court. there is a big old conspiracy indictment that will be presented. >> i have one more legal question. do the tea leaves suggest to you

that it is that kind of case she's bringing, ago broad conspiracy, glen? >> yeah. she's taken so much time and she has investigated fake electors in other states, for example, to use as part and parcel of the evidence supporting the conspiracy charge. so it feels like she is going to go big rather than go narrow. and because it is a multifaceted nefarious course of conduct. it is rudy giuliani and jena ellis making false statements. the georgia state legislators about nonexistent election fraud. it does feel like we'll see a big old conspiracy indictment. >> and there was no secret, aaron, as to who sat in the cockpit. donald trump on the call. i remember listening to it that

sunday night that it came out and tweeting, i don't give my viewers homework very often but i'm giving you the homework of listening to the whole thing. two days later, the january 6th insurrection would happen and that call would be wiped off the front pages. let me play a little more of trump on the call with raffensperger. >> and you will find that they are, which is totally illegal, it is more illegal for you than it is for them because you know what they did and you're not reporting it. that's a criminal offense. you can't let that happen. that's a big risk to you and your lawyer. a lot of people think it wasn't a mistake. it was much more criminal than that. >> brad raffensperger knew he

was not committing any crimes. it was the other guy at the other end of the line. countless republicans have been the witnesses in this investigation. what are your thoughts as we appear to be heading toward the climax? >> former president trump maintained that with the perfect phone call. accusing secretary of state raffensperger being the criminal saying he did nothing wrong and raffensperger needed to look into wrongdoing. even since that call, even as he is mounting this re-election bid, he is clinging to that. he is clinging to the big lie. he is doubling down on that call and what he did on that call and that is something that will be presented to at least one of the two grand juries that was seated today. so once again, georgia is the center of the political universe. and holding the former

president's political fate in their hands. it is really kind of fascinating to look back over the two and a half years and to know that maybe within the next few days or weeks, we could have a decision out of georgia with the grand jury. >> you know,eddie, the case in georgia has already been made. by the january 6th select committee. i want to show you some of the evidence, the congressional committee developed that ties trump and his allies at doj to the plot to overturn the georgia election results. this is liz cheney. >> the letter also said this. quote, in light of these developments, the department recommends that the georgia general assembly should convene in special session. end quote. and consider approving a new slate of electors. and it indicates that a separate, quote, fake slate of

electors supporting donald trump has already been transmitted to washington, d.c. for those of you who have been watching these hearings, the language of this draft justice department letter will sound very familiar. the text is similar to what we have seen from john eastman and rudy giuliani. both of whom were coordinating with president trump to overturn the 2020 election. >> so eddie, i went full carr cle mathson listening to that. what is clear is that trump is the fulcrum. he directs two prongs to the plot. one is his own executive branch of government and that's what liz was talking about. the doj plot. jeffrey clark's letter that leads to the resignation of the u.s. attorney. tlls the campaign plot which is where rudy giuliani is calling all manner of states. michigan, arizona, pennsylvania

and georgia. john eastman is also involved in all prongs of that. what is your anticipation about it potentially coming to an end? >> well, you know, first of all, let me say i stepped down as the chairman of african-american studies. i am no longer chair and i need to make that known. this is the first step, one of the important steps in holding donald trump accountable. people are innocent until proven guilty. we've had a wide range of evidence that suggested to at least me that trump should be held to account. and there is the beginning of that, it seems to me. and he's at the center of it but there are a host of other folks. lindy graham, rudy giuliani, mark meadows. a range of people directed at trump's will by his orders to in

some ways follow up on this second prong that you just laid out. so it seems to me this is the beginning. it is slow. we're beginning to get into a political season. it's slow. we're trying to hold them to account for the evidence that many of us have been digesting for almost over a year now. >> yeah. to eddie's point, the evidence that is in the public arena, and the evidence, he said digesting for over a year, was presented and developed by congress. and i wonder, i want to bring you back in on this. what does it mean that doj is going third? >> it is highly unusual. any time i was involved in a case, prosecutors always want to go first. we want to present the evidence, the witnesses to a grand jury.

we want to be able to lock in their testimony that we may have to use in the future at trial. and frankly, we try very hard to delay any other sworn testimony being given by that same witness until after the conclusion of our prosecution. if people tell a story twice over time, human nature is such that you'll tell it slightly differently even if you have the best memory. the best intentions, and the best ethics. and then that will be exploited and there will be a suggestion that you were lying then or you're lying now. so i will never understand, and i hope we look back and do something of an autopsy on this investigation why it is doj laid back for so long and let congress take the lead. thal goodness the j-6 committee did take the lead. i think in part that prodded doj

into wakefulness and action. i will forever wonder why doj didn't jump on this on january 7th to protect our democracy. >> you and me both. i want to share more of the evidence. this hasn't been front of mind for a few weeks now. the ajc has reported on some of the evidence developed in bonnie willis' probe. it includes more recordings. now that we're in a post e. jean carroll world where we know trump's own words are not viewed particularly favorably when he describes his conduct, particularly by juries. they di ulged dealing. they heard a recording of a phone call trump placed to late george house speaker david ralston in which trump asked the fellow republican to convene a special legislature to overturn

democrat joe biden's narrow victory in georgia. when jurors said ralston proved to be an amazing competition, the speaker cut the president off. he said i will do everything in my power that i think is appropriate. he basically took the wind out of the sail was what em. well, thank you, you know, is all the president could say. so mr. ralston has something in common with rusty bowers. mr. ralston has something in common with every legislator who was asked to do the same thing. it is abundantly clear that because it happened in public view, that there was a multistate campaign. i wonder what your open questions are about how much the d.a. looked at similar efforts in other states. >> i think she absolutely did. let remember, her career was billed on rico cases. we don't know if that's what

happened here with the former president but she's already got other high profile cases that she's prosecuting right now. so the idea that she is trying to tie this to a broader, georgia's role as part of trying to perpetuate the big lie and enact the big lie across multiple states including georgia is not out of the question and could be something that she does present to a grand jury to try to persuade them that there was criminal wrongdoing and there was that special time of wrongdoing. i think the other thing i'm curious to see. you brought up the e. jean carroll case. whether talking about that, as the former president's legal woes continue to coincide with his re-election bid. you're seeing him still out here in the court of public opinion speaking. his own voice has done him in in

the past. will that be the case? i think bonnie willis is listening to see how he responds publicly as this grand jury probe gets underway. and when there is an skrout come and a decision, what is he saying that could further implicate him or damage him legally is something that, if the past is any kind of prologue, we should be paying attention for. >> exactly. and the patterns that are familiar to all of us. thank you for starting us off. when we come back, a significant development in the e. jean carroll case to tell you about that paves the way for trial for the disgraced expresident. plus, the republican senator single handedly holding up military promotions, and risking national security and military readiness is also doubling down on white nationalists in the military. what tommy is saying today.

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what are you working on? a bomb. it's happening, isn't it? this is the most important thing to every happen in the history of the world! we have some breaking news to tell you about. it is a significant move from the justice department today in an ongoing case involving the expresident. doj is today saying that donald trump was in fact not acting in his capacity as president when he made potentially defamatory statements against e. jean

carroll. when he denied that he assaulted her in a department store in the mid 1990s. that is a reversal of the department's previous position and a potential boost to e. jean carroll who as you know, won the defamation suit against donald trump and has already levied another one. carroll's attorney is out with the statement in response to the move from doj. it reads in part, quote, we are grateful that the department of justice has reconsidered its position. we have always believed that donald trump made his defamatory statements about our client in june 2019 out of personal animus, ill will and spite, and not as president of the united states. now that one of the last obstacles has been removed, we look forward to trial on e. jean carroll's original case in january 2024. let's bring in our breaking news coverage. lisa, we've had a lot of conversations about the trial which i guess is e. jean 2.

this goes back to e. jean 1. this would have put merrick garland in the position of defending trump. a reversal today. how rare is that? and what happens next? >> it is a meaningful reversal and one of the things the department of justice says in trying to distinguish its position here is thathe that you know trump wasn't motivated by a desire to serve the government in his statements of june 2019 is that he continued to make substantially similar statements in october of 2022. those are the statements that you just noted were the subject of the trial in may that e. jean carroll won. she was awarded $5 million in damages in that trial. and this one, she is seeking substantially more, including $10 million in punitive damages. why? because donald trump even after

that may 2023 verdict recently went on cnn and just repeated the same stuff about her again. so it is a significant reversal of position by the department of justice. and yet at the same time, doing so narrowly to say the department will not defend someone like trump where they make statements in office not designed to serve the government. that hopefully gives the department the ability to continue to try and rescue federal officials from tort cases like e. jean carroll's case, where they do say things that you could defend as being within the scope of their employment. i would think that that includes most of the conceivable defamation cases that you or i could think about involving a current or former president. >> so glen, i wonder if it's a coincidence that the language that doj uses today is very similar to the findings that the jury has. they find that he's acting out of personal animus.

out of a vendetta with an intent to harm. that is sort of the jury's finding. and you think of doj as hermetically sealed. i wonder if they are influenced by what juries of one's peers find. >> yeah. i think the jury finding in favor of e. jean carroll, that donald trump sexually battered her and defamed her, lied about it, gave the department of justice cover to reverse itself on the substitution issue. they tried to substitute the department of gist as the litigant, pulled donald trump out of fire. and i will tell you, i wasn't at all surprise that had bill barr's department of justice first took that position that somehow these lies about a sexual assault victim, somebody that you victimized, were somehow within the scope of donald trump's official

presidential duties. i wasn't shocked when bill barr took that position, but i was heart-broken when merrick garland maintained that position. that, nicole, in my estimation, was a low point in my beloved former home, the department of justice. because that was a discretionary call by merrick garland. the law did not mandate that he take that position. and i thought to myself, if morality and decency doesn't enter into these discretionary decisions, then we are really in trouble on the law enforcement front, at the department of justice. i am thrilled. we'll file this under the better late than never category. the doj has reversed course and done what i believe is the right thing. both legally and morally. >> i mean, glenn, let me follow up quickly. why do you think they reached that decision in the first place? the original one before today's reversal? >> to protect future presidents

against similar claims if those claims are frivolous, if they're not fact-based, if they are nefariously launched. but that doesn't really absolve you of responsibility to do the right thing in each individual instance. so i think doj got this wrong. i think they believed they were protecting presidents in the future from similar allegations being frivolous allegations. but you have to do the right thing in each instance. >> i want to add into our coverage someone we've turned to a great deal on these matters. a law professor at the university of utah. first amendment scholar, your reaction to today's news that the department of justice has reversed itself. it will no longer defend the twice indicted expresident in his lawsuit against e. jean carroll. >> i think this is a really

interesting and incredibly important turn of events. particularly for carroll's ability to move forward with this additional defamation suit. i can understand the reasons why the doj was cautious on this front. wanting to take a sort of wide lens and make sure the communications are made through official channels. particularly here. official channels that presidents are often using and going to use to communicate with the people and with the news media to try to have the scope of employment be used broadly. but here, the d.c. court of appeal in the back and forth that happened on this really did open the door for their to be a careful factual determination, for them to dive down into the facts and make an inquiry into whether on the facts of the particular case, what was going on here was somebody working in

their job as president, or someone really doing as the d.o.j. has concluded here, something that is motivated by a personal grievance. the loss the last time around really did fuel this in a bunch of ways. it fueled it because it gave the doj the capacity today to say we can see here. trump was motivated by a personal grievance. it stemmed from those events that a jury has now concluded occurred all those years before trump's presidency. and it ties in with this second suit in massive ways going forward. e. jean carroll has already established that it was a lie for trump to say that he did not sexually assault her. and it was a lie for him to say that the, that she had made it up as a hoax to sell books. and she has already shown it was

reputation harming. so we're moving forward now, assuming the judge agrees with the doj's position, with just the question of damages which i think should be staggering. >> ronnell, i guess the nonlawyer in me feels the need to boil this down. the game changer is this jury decision. doj describes a, quote, fresh set of facts that supports an inference that trump was motivated from a personal grievance steaming from an event many years before the presidency. we have i think folks that have covered trump for a long time and can sometimes overemphasize the criminal accountability and not pay quite as much attention as we should to the moves in a civil proceeding. but in this instance, this trial, this taped deposition from trump, this jury decision, and this decision that trump is liable for sexual abuse, for

defamation, seems to have a mop umtal ripple effect in terms of doj's view of what it will and will not defend. >> i think that's absolutely right. i think the jury's conclusion in a case that was focused on defamation and sexual assault put the doj in a position in which it could as the d.c. court of appeals said it could do, take the full facts into account. here, that jury verdict in the previous tape opens the door for e. jean carroll to move forward in the additional case. and i think it also really importantly creates the careful boundaries for the doj to take this factually into account without throwing the door wide open to eliminate the kind of protection that it wants to have

for people operating in the scope of their governmental employment in the future. >> so interesting. amazing. thank you so much for getting on the air to help us understand this breaking news. thank you so much. when we come back, the republican senator who is at best extremely confused about what it means to be a white nationalist. that story is next. nationalist. that story is next

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i'm totally against racism. if the democrats say that a white nationalist -- if they said that's the definition, then i'm totally against white nationalists. i'm a football coach. i treated everybody with respect. >> i'm almost without words but it's never a positive sign when a politician needs four, five, six chances to explain the definition of what a night nationalist is as he seems to have. of course that was alabama senator tommy tuberville and his chance to clarify on where he come down on the topic of white nationalists and whether or not they are racists. it follows a few other attempts. we'll play with you the original

comments. last night's fumbling efforts to explain them. >> you mentioned the biden administration trying to prevent white nationalists from being in the military. do you believe they should allow white nationalists in the military? >> well, they call them that. i call them americans. >> just to be clear, you agree that white nationalists should not be serving in the u.s. military. is that what you're saying. >> if people think they are white nationalists. if somebody wants to call them that, to me, it's an american. it's an american. if that white nationalist is a racist, i'm totally against anything they want to do. i am 110% against racism. >> it's at best nonsensical and stupid. at worst, an excuse for racism. whether or not you buy any of that from tuberville, it is nothing to mitigate the real danger he's creating and that's

his blockade of vital top military promotions. his objection to the military's abortion health care policy. today that guy tuberville was among the senators to ask questions of general charles c.q. brown. he is president biden's choice to lead the chief of staff. left unsaid at this point, that tuberville's grandstanding will no doubt delay the approval. with me, the host of the independent america's podcast, paul, the founder of operation liberty which seeks to protect american troops and veterans in a post-war america. let's just stop here for a second. white nationalists are racists. full stop. why can't he utter that sentence? >> you know, you said he's either stupid or he does not know. he doesn't actually know what

white nationalism means. on the other hand, he might hold commitments that might describe himself as a white nationalist. there's a view that he says being an american entails the idea that this is a white nation. so that's why he's confusing it. that's the only way i can make sense of it. he's not considered the sharpest senator in that body. so it makes sense that he would fumble this ball, in a sense. >> but i mean, stupidity isn't a defense against racism, paul. >> no. >> yeah. i've said this before stupid is as stupid was to quote another person from alabama. but racists are what racists do. this is who he is. he's showing us who he is. many of us know a guy like him. an old racist white guy whose racism is so deeply ingrained, he doesn't think he's racist or

he tries to explain it away. that's who he is. and he's blocking military promotions for hundreds of people. and i think this is gut check time again for the republicans and the democrats. what are you going to do? are you going to let this go on? a guy who continues to support openly white nationalism be a u.s. senator? he needs to be censured, removed, he needs to be run out of the senate. this can't continue. it has our enemies celebrating. you put him against someone like cq brown, a leader with integrity, an f-16 pilot. and he shouldn't have to deal with this guy. none of us should have to deal with this guy. he should not be in the senate. all there is beneath the office. and i think like many democrats. i'm looking at the republicans to do something about it. >> this isn't some back-benching fool. this is the most powerful republican in the united states senate today.

he is single handedly responsible today for impeding and harming u.s. military readiness. we have no ability to confirm president biden's appointees for leadership positions because of this guy. we can't decide if he is more stupid or more racist. and it is almost comical or farcical. but today he is the most powerful republican in the senate. >> let's stipulate he's a stupid racist. so you're absolutely right in this regard. and then the question we have to ask, which no one is asking. where the hell is mitch mcconnell? what is mitch mcconnell's position on tuberville? in relation to his racism and in relation to his effort, his blocking of these promotions, and in some ways, blocking, getting in the way of our national interests. why aren't we posing the question to mitch mcconnell?

and see where he stands with regard to this stupid racist? >> and i guess, paul, it's fair because he's not said much of anything about the racism. and he said he wasn't associated with blocking the military promotions but hasn't done anything about it. and there is a constant accommodation of mitch mcconnell. he's not as crazy as trump. he's not a white nationalist like tuberville. he's done nothing to solve the tommy tuberville problem. >> i think mcconnell is the focal point here. every sim member of the senate should be on the record on how they feel about this. do they stand with these remarks? will they condemn these remarks? do they understand the way these remarks reverberate through the military? how they impact recruiting? imagine if you're a young black kid thinking about joining the military. this guy is a u.s. senator. this guy is blocking military

nominations. who in their right mind will want to join a military when a senator like this is in charge of policy? and there are other points, too. i covered it on my podcast. i had the colorado springs mayor, an independent mayor on my show. he is right now fighting with tommy tuberville in alabama to keep space command. it is colorado versus alabama. we can have an independent bipartisan reasonable guy like the mayor or you can have senator red neck in alabama who wants to ban all rights for women for the most part, and welcome white nationalists into what he's building, which seems like the confederate army rather than the military of 2023. >> again, these are his words. he's been given more opportunities than a child would be given, frankly, to clarify what he meant. and the state of being tommy tuberville and the state of the republican party. thank you for joining us. speaking of your podcast, be sure to catch the latest episode

of the podcast. it features msnbc correspondent our friend luke russert. when we come back, mounting ethical scandals at the supreme court. you don't want to miss this. don't go anywhere. s. don't go anywhere. needs. she picks her perks and saves on every one. make your move to myplan. act now and get it for $25 when you bring your phones. it's your verizon. this is american infrastructure, a prime target for cyberattacks. but the same ai-powered security that protects all of google also defends these services for everyone who lives here. ♪

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accept lavish gifts and vacations from billionaire friends. they're refusing to help everyday americans just trying to get a fair shake. congress has clear authority to oversee the federal judiciary and that includes making sure that the highest court in the land is held to includes making the court is held to equal standards. >> chuck schumer on the judiciary committee's proposed legislation to set up a code of ethics for the supreme court justices. the bill would give the court 180 days to adopt and publish a code of conduct, allowing the public to submit ethics complaints that a randomly selected panel of lower court judges would review. it would impose recusal rules pertaining to gifts and other common potential conflicts. it comes a year after scandals marked the nation's highest court work three justices this year alone being the subjects of

exposes of highly questionable behavior of themselves or their spouses. just this week, "the new york times" reported on justice clarence thomas', justice thomas received many gifts, previously unreported from a cohort of wealthy and powerful friends. they included major donors to conservative causes much at stake in supreme court decisions. let's bring in one of the lawmakers behind the supreme court reform bill and broader efforts to hold the supreme court accountable, senator sheldonwhitehouse, a member of the judiciary committee. we have been talk about senator tuberville. i want your quick thoughts on what he's going through. he's on his seventh effort at answering whether or not they believes white nationalists are racists. his latest view is that he does. but this is not some back bencher with no power. he's single handedly holding up

military promotions and impeding the biden administration's military readiness and fully staffed command struck which you remember what are your thoughts about what could be done? >> well, the first thing is a republican problem. mitch mcconnell is -- needs to be held accountable for. to get people into promotions, and it clearly affects national security interests in a very harmful way, so we need to either get him to knock it off or figure out a way to get all these promotions through so that our military can continue to operate successfully and safely. >> i bring it up because it seems that the two parties are operating on different planets,

right? on earth one, which should be a bipartisan effort for ethics transparency and some sort of standards that have to be adhered to by all supreme court justices. on earth two, they're attacking the media that covers the justices who are breaking their own meager disclosure rules. i mean, how do you get anything done when there is an inability to acknowledge that facts as they are here on earth one. >> i think you just push forward. when it's obvious that you're doing the right thing, you just push forward and you go on to the next step and the then the next step after that. and for us, the next step is for us to have a markup in the senate judiciary committee on the supreme court ethics reform bill, see how republicans behave, continue to do our investigative work, see whether their behavior changes, this problem continues to get worse and worse and worse, and just keep pushing forward. and i think there's a parallel argument to be made that in many

respects the way republican senators are behaving about the supreme court is proof positive of our case about the politicization of the supreme court. in ordinary circumstances with a neutral supreme court you wouldn't see republicans defending this stuff. it makes no sense. it's only because the court is delivering for the big donors who also back the republicans that we're seeing this charade of disinterest and partisanship accusations. >> and it's amazing. the supreme court is now more politically unpopular. more people disapprove of the supreme court than even disapprove of most republican standard bearers, so i wonder if you think that it won't be a come to jesus, won't be realizing that, of course the supreme court justices should have an ethics code. it might just be the political deadweight of carrying the court? or what do you think breaks the republican obstruction?

>> ultimately the 2024 election if they continue down the path. more importantly, the week as you described it of the piling up of evidence misconduct. we're now up to six billionaires engaged in the care and feeding of just two justices, and we're only beginning to learn about the full depths of the problem. the third prospect is the judicial conference. the judges themselves to put some pressure on the supreme court justices whose behavior the judges have to know is wrong, because they live within the rules and through the judicial conference they can clean up themselves. so there are three avenues. >> what is your sense of where this legislation is headed next? can you just take us through the process? >> well, we're going to come up on thursday. it will be held over in the ordinary courts of the judiciary

process. on july 20th, we'll have to proper markup of the bill and we'll go through the process of considering amendments and voting on the bill to move it forward, and then we'll see how that turns out. the bill is then on senate floor and will work with chairman durbin and leader shumer to try to make sure we have a unified caucus and see whether the republicans are interested in proceeding, and as i said, we're at the beginning of finding out full depths of the problems of the supreme court. as it gets worse the pressure will build and we want to be ready with a good solid bill we can pass. >> it's just amazing. we'll cover the process as it makes its way through, but the piece that seems to be shifting underneath our feet is the politics of this. the supreme court is really plunged in terms of the public's esteem of it. thank you very much for spending some time with us on it today. >> thanks so much. >> our thanks to all of you for

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