got in the octagon, who would win. >> come on, the guy is 78 years old. i'd kick his ass. >> all right. republican presidential candidate chris christie takes talking tough on trump to a new level there. we've got a lot to get to this morning. including new reporting on who in donald trump's inner circle is talking to special counsel jack smith about efforts to overturn the 2020 election. plus, the party who doesn't want to politicize the political military crams its far-right agenda in. plus, star power is coming to the picket lines. hollywood actors join the writers guild by going on strike. and there are conflicting opinions from top scientists and health officials on an artificial sweetener that is in a lot of products from diet

sodas to cereals. we'll go through that debate, joe, you and your diet coke. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." >> well, let me say this, willie. let me say this, okay? yeah, i've had a few diet coke in my day. >> five a day. >> growing up, growing up, i think we all knew three things. number one, of course, willie, we knew you never eat a big dinner before you go swimming, right? just don't do it. >> sure. >> number two, never, ever, ever, and mcarthur taught us this, don't get engaged in a ground war in asia. number three, i think we all knew from the first sip of diet coke that we had in 1982, like, we knew it caused cancer. >> no. >> you had a sip, "you know, this tastes okay, but it is probably going to kill me." >> let me have another one. >> seriously, we were sitting around with our pop rocks and

everything else, put down our tabs and mr. pibbs, then we pick those up. you drank diet coke, and you knew when you had the first sip, you knew, yeah, this is what killed elvis. this is going to take me down. >> no. >> sure enough. mika, a health care nut, because she's a health nut, runs, 5, 4, 6 miles a day, she still drinks tab and smokes a virginia slim. she's playing it safe. >> remember fresca? >> you can find a tab. you have to look part. >> you can? >> it's tied to aspertain. you like an off brand dr. pepper, as well, fantastic. >> i love it. >> when we read the news yesterday, i hope this isn't too bleak, but we began to prepare

your obituary. we have been talking privately about how we're going to handle the news that it is over for you since you main line diet coke. >> stop it, joe. put that away. i need you to stop. >> in the cancer section, he's holding up a diet coke. >> what? >> it's when it hits your lips. >> exactly. >> anyway -- >> mr. pibb. >> you're living on the edge. i feel like even knievel. >> are you the guy that hits the button, and a diet coke comes into your office? >> that was trump, but i'm thinking about that, actually. >> okay. i'm going to -- i just -- >> i bounce back and forth, actually, i do, between diet coke, like, that's not good for

me, then i'll have sweet tea, and then i'll pass out because my blood sugar is too high. >> you wonder why your ears hurt. it's a cycle. it's bad. you have to stop with the caffeinated drinks. >> i play really loud music, yeah. >> and the caffeinated drinks, okay. along with joe, willie and me, we have pulitzer prize winning columnist and associate editor of "the washington post," eugene robinson. in new york, the circus is in town. co co-host of "the circus," jen palmieri. national affairs analyst john heilemann. and political strategist mark mckinnon is good. you guys look good. good to have "the circus" in town. here we go. president joe biden wrapped up his european trip in finland with nato's newest member. finland ended decades of neutrality in april when it

became the alliance's 31st member. the move was also significant because the country shares 830 miles of border with russia. president biden yesterday celebrated finland's membership and nato's united front against russian president vladimir putin. >> mr. president, at this critical moment in history, this inflection point, the world is watching to see, will we do the hard work that matters to forge a better future? will we stand together in will we stand with one another? will we stay committed to our course? this week, finland, the united states and our allies and partners said a resounding, loud yes, "yes, we'll step up. yes, we'll stand together. yes, we'll work to a stronger, safer, more secure world." >> president biden delivered those remarks in the very same room in hhelsinki, where former president trump met with putin almost exactly five years ago. that day, then president trump

famously sided with the russian president's denial of interference in the 2016 election, going against the findings of american intelligence. yesterday, the president drew a sharp contrast with his comments about putin and the state of the war in ukraine. >> putin's already lost the war. putin has a real problem. how does he move from here? what does he do? so the idea that there's going to be what vehicle is used, he could end the war tomorrow. he could just say, "i'm out." but what agreement is ultimately reached depends upon putin and what he decides to do. but there is no possibility of him winning the war in ukraine. he's already lost that war. >> john heilemann, the white house was just absolutely delighted with the contrast. i was told very early on, politics is all about contrast with your opponent. the white house could not have

been happier to be in the same room five years later, where they believe, and most americans believe, even most conseratives believe, donald trump humiliated himself in front of vladimir putin. the contrast could not have been sharper, could it? >> could not have been starker or sharper, joe. he humiliated himself. even for people who supported donald trump, there was never a moment that was more clear, unfit for office, than at that moment. it was a shock. even for people who thought donald trump was off the chain and, like, crazy and intemperate and a lot of things, that moment on the world stage was a moment where a lot of people who were trying to give trump the benefit of the doubt said, "uh-oh, we're in trouble here." i'd say another thing that i think the white house is delighted with, and i'd be delighted, too, people banging this kettle drum all day long. joe biden is senile. joe biden is infirm. joe biden has lost his mind. joe biden needs a -- all that stuff. he's seven hours ahead.

he stands up there, has the press conference, going more than an hour. he's taking hard questions on foreign policy. looked pretty good. >> great speech the night before. not like he didn't have a tough schedule the day before. >> right. tough schedule. he gets in there, does a long press conference. not only is it the contrast with trump five years ago, the guy is up there handling questions on the world stage without really missing a beat. if i want to run a tape to refute the absurd notions of joe biden's infirmity, i run this tape if i'm the white house and say, that guy is doing better in this space than any of us around this table could do. >> on top of that, the economic news of this week, inflation. pretty good double. >> win, win, win, jen. looking like what he is, a statesman on the world stage. >> so much winning, just exhausted by all of the winning. >> yeah. >> there was the speech the

night before in lithuania, which was commanding. the press conference, and even to go back a second time to the finnish reporter who continued to question america's commitment to finland as part of nato. he's like, "no, no, let me go back and correct you." does anybody know, who decided the trip would end in helsinki? it was a genius move. that's actually not clear to me if it was the white house that said, "hey, i know, let's go back to helsinki five years to the day." >> same room. >> same place. it couldn't be a more -- that was -- if that was baked from the nordic leaders themselves? either way, still just so breathtaking, that moment from trump. >> it really was. >> i still gasp when i hear it. >> me too. >> and that contrast for biden to be, you know, not just showing american leadership but also just being so great at, you know, nailing that speech and that press conference.

>> joe, how does he continue this type of momentum in terms of not just the optics but a real generating a sense of having complete control over the situation? what's different at the nato summit? >> well, nothing is different. that's the thing. i will say this, mika, following up on what you said a couple of days ago that got you in red on the "drudge report," which is big, when they give you the redhead line. >> i missed that. >> they have the scheduling better. i thought it was important for them to say, "you know what? he's been going night and day. we're going to let him take off for the dinner." of course, plan that ahead next time. but little things like that make a big difference. >> look at this, joe. >> for -- >> joe, look at this. >> yeah? >> everything here is tightly produced. it is beautiful. >> yeah. >> everything here allows these world leaders to do what they do. there's no concern about the small things. i would suggest that what i said

that i guess put me in the red is taken seriously when he comes back home. >> no doubt about it. >> this president is good at what he does. >> i've always told people. >> and -- mm-hmm? >> i've told people, the president is very sharp. if you say something or write something, there have been times he's called and refuted it very sharply. i talk to foreign leaders that have had conversations with him that said that he was on top of every issue. to the degree they were actually -- some nato leaders have told me they were very surprised, the contrast between the image in public and the joe biden behind closed doors. because he is so sharp and on top of everything. so much has to do with presentation. for any trumpers saying, oh, my god, they're talking about how we may need to take a rest every

once in a while, please, you're talking about donald trump who did nothing but sit in his office and watch cable news all day. the executive time, well, i'm sure we can go to mar-a-lago and he has them shoved in drawers, all of his stuff. but, gene, let me just say, if we were talking about style over substance, that would be one thing. we're talking about matching reality with perception. >> yeah. >> bill clinton had a great saying, if a turtle shows up on top of a fence post, it didn't get there by accident. nato did not expand -- >> exactly. >> -- to historic lengths and have -- by accident. it was joe biden, along with his equal partners, that masterminded this. nato allies will tell you they look to america for leadership. he did this. history will record this, whether idiots on the right trump online want to admit it or not. history is going to report this.

this is pretty remarkable. you look at the economy exploding. just like obama rightfully got credit, along with bush at the end of the term for helping save the economy, joe biden is going to be credited for moving us beyond one of the great economic crises of our time, which was, of course, covid, post covid. it looks like we may have a pretty safe landing here for an economy. >> mm-hmm. >> this isn't happening by accident. >> yeah. >> if people want to focus on him falling on a sandbag or falling off of a bike, that's fine. but while that i talking about that, joe biden is making, you know, europe safe for democracy. >> yeah. anybody who spent any time with joe biden since he's been in the oval office knows that the reality is nothing like the dystopian picture that the

republicans are trying to paint, of this senile, dottering president. he is as sharp as a tack. you know, this nato summit, i just thought, was stunning. when you look at the nato expansion, when you look at how nato now surrounds the baltic sea in a way that was unimaginable, when you look at the summit itself, you know, nato doesn't do anything without american leadership, period. despite what generations of french presidents would like you to believe, in fact, it is u.s. leadership that shapes nato and that moves nato forward. this is joe biden. it is remarkable, the state craft that has led us to this

point. and they say, you know, u.s. elections are not usually decided on foreign policy. i think people have to give this a look. it's really an extraordinary achievement. then on top of it, as you mentioned, the economy, we are having a soft landing, which is -- which nobody thought was conceivable, and everybody said, "oh, wait for the recession that's coming, it's coming. it's coming." doesn't seem to be coming. it's tamed. the job market is roaring. unemployment below 4% for a historic length of time. this is a record that i think any president would want to go into re-election with, and it's a matter -- the campaign is a matter of making the reality shine through the false perception that is being

created. >> mark mckinnon, as gene says, an objectively successful trip to europe with nato celebrating finland's ascension, sweden being admitted, now on the path, and ukraine getting security guarantees and the promise that they, too, someday will be added to nato. that's three new countries added to nato in the last few weeks, potentially one of them being added. then the economy, inflation down to 3%. that's all the substance. the style, if you watch president biden at vilnius university giving the speech, talking about the courage of the ukrainian people, the american will to stand with nato, with ukraine, and if you want to make the contrast, watch a donald trump rally in south carolina. you could ask yourself in the side by side, who is losing it as some trumpists have said of president biden? >> nothing will more quickly put the age debate behind them than weeks like this. if he can stack up more, it'll go a long way to his

re-election. fantastic week nationally and domestically. when you look at republicans fighting back against biden, they're punching air. all they have left is hunter biden. hunter biden. >> they are focused on that. far-right media outlets, as well, that's literally their lead. >> when you have nothing left, all you have is hunter. ahead on "morning joe," we'll be joined by two members of congress, mikie sherrill and seth moulton, with controversial amendments being added to the defense spending bill. plus, president biden is criticizing republican senator tommy tuberville over what he calls his ridiculous decision to block hundreds of military nominations. we'll show you biden's new comments on that and how the senator is responding. also ahead, hollywood actors will be on the picket line this morning after union leaders voted to strike yesterday. we'll take a look at what it

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for seniors at $35 a month. gave medicare the power to negotiate lower prescription drug prices. and prices are already starting to go down. the out-of-pocket cost is dropping for 27 drugs. [narrator] learn how the inflation reduction act will save you money. that's a beautiful, life live picture of sunrise over the united states capitol at 6:22 in the morning. the republican-controlled house voted last night to include dozens of controversial amendments to the national defense authorization bill. among the measures, limits to the d.o.d.'s diversity initiatives, bans on the military covering gender-affirming care, and the approval to roll back a pentagon policy that guarantees service members access to abortion. far-right republicans also tried to push proposals that would

limit america's involvement in ukraine, but those failed. a full house vote is expected today. democratic leaders have pledged to oppose the bill, writing in a statement, republicans have, quote, hijacked what always happen a bipartisan legislation to, quote, jam their right-wing ideology down the throats of the american people. that's a quote from the house democratic leadership. joe, once again here, we could add senator tommy tuberville to the list, what he is doing in the senate, but house republicans slowing down this -- you've been there many times, voting on this, something that happens every year -- getting the military the money it needs to do its job. >> i'm telling ya, i was on the armed services committee, appointed there four times, and, man, i can tell ya, mark mckinnon, nothing drives military leaders, nothing drives the rank and file crazier than people fighting culture wars,

basically, in these military funding battles and, you know, whether it's authorizing or appropriating. all they're doing, and john thune said it about tommy tuberville, all they're doing is, you know, they're hurting america's readiness. i mean, how hypocritical, you have republicans saying, oh, our military is woke and weak, when we're stronger than ever, because democrats are trying to politicize it and have culture wars. no, it's republicans that are literally fighting culture wars instead of funding our troops. >> yeah, joe, they're clawing their way to the bottom in two ways. first of all, on the issue of abortion. if you saw the kansas referendum, republicans didn't get the memo. at the same time, they're doing it while denying military leadership which is supposed to be the republicans' stronghold on issues. i mean, we grew up with ronald reagan, john mccain and the notion that the republicans

would be holding up the leadership of the military would be contrary to the conventional history of the republican party. >> yeah. john heilemann, it's crazy. it is absolutely crazy, again, how politicized this house has become, and especially on an issue like this, especially when you have readiness issues. you're actually not only just driving women away who would want to serve, you're also driving a lot of men whose spouses are not going to want to come with them, not going to want to be a part of it. it seems the republicans are doing everything they can to hurt recruitment here. >> look, joe, it's clearly some element here of house republicans feeling like they have a free vote, where it's like the senate isn't going to do anything. that then isn't going to do anything, but that raises the

political question, and we were talking about this last night on alex's show, jen. i continue to not understand it, they put in this, effectively, a ban -- an effective ban on abortion for women in the military by not allowing them to be able to pay for their -- go back to places where they can get an abortion if they need one. you know, we're here in new york state where you've got five or six biden districts that republicans won, crucially won to enable them to take control of the house of representatives. all of those republican members, all of them, voted for this effective abortion ban. >> i don't get that. that blows me away. >> you guys, how many times do you have to put your hand on the hot stove? it's like ouch, like a "simpsons" cartoon or something, burn your hand, over and over again. how much does your hand have to be on fire for them to understand this is a losing issue? >> he brought this up last night, and i thought it was, oh, obviously, those members of congress voted against this

amendment, and they voted for it. i mean, you can lose your house seat over this amendment. >> for sure. >> i mean, not only -- first of all, america is not with you on this issue, and then on top of that, you are putting this extra burden on the military? that is already strapped, doing great but recruiting is not easy. i come from a military family, the strain and the stress on the families, on the spouses, and they're going to put up with this nonsense? chain of command, tommy tuberville. >> come on. >> this is why the military works. you're taking your unpopular agenda and layering it on top of the military. it's nuts to me that they noted for that. >> joe, it is impossible that they couldn't see the ramifications of this, you know, the many layers of ramifications. >> they don't care. they live in their own world, in a bubble. they don't care what our military leaders think. they don't care about the people

who will be taking our men and women into war, into combat. they don't care about the readiness. they care about appealing to a small slice of their district in districts that are overwhelmingly red already. you go to the pentagon, talk to military leaders, they would be so angry when members would use their positions on the armed services committee or in congress to push this nonsense because it got in the way of focusing on protecting america against threats from china, from russia, from terrorists. gene, this has been an ongoing assault from republicans the past couple years. they trash our military, trash our military leaders. they say you should be more manly like the russians.

our military is the best relative to the rest of the world at any time since warld world war ii, but they trash the military, saying they're weak and woke. they hurt recruitment in middle america. they're social engineering their cultural wars inside the united states military. when what is -- as jen said, what is middle america wanting? ask kansas. they don't want a total abortion ban. >> yeah. >> ask kentucky. they don't want a total abortion ban. ask wisconsin. wisconsin which had an 1849 total abortion ban. how did that work out for them? a landslide in the most important supreme court election in years. they're not listening to america here, and they're hurting the

military because of that. >> they absolutely are. definite impact on recruitment. after all, in the military, you don't get to choose where you serve and that sort of mobility for reproductive health is important. i think it's one out of five members of the military is a woman, plus, you know, you mentioned spouses, as well. the substance of this, if it ever became law, this would be a terrible thing for recruitment. at a time when recruitment isn't going as well as the military would like. that the substantive problem. the military problem is it is not just those seats in new york, those seats that republicans won in biden

districts there, but, you know, i could think of a seat or two in virginia, you know, other places in the country, and this absolutely be a huge ball and chain around the neck of republicans as they seek re-election next year. it'll hurt them. republican congressman eli crane of arizona brought up a proposal to ban the defense department from considering race, gender, religion and political affiliations when recruiting, training, promoting and educating service members. here's what he said, though, when he took to the floor to defend his measure. >> my amendment has nothing to do with whether or not colored people or black people or anybody can serve, okay? it has nothing to do with -- >> mr. speaker? >> -- any of that stuff. what we want to -- what we want to preserve and maintain is the fact that our military does not

become a social experiment. we want the best of the best. we want to have standards that guide who is in what unit, what they do. i'll tell you guys right now -- >> all right. >> -- the russians, chinese, iranians -- >> they took down his somethin. i had somebody ask me, because i guess they didn't grow up in the south when i did, gene, they said, you know, is that what people say behind closed doors. >> sure. >> i can tell ya, maybe in the 1960s. i haven't heard in polite society or sunday school class or behind closed doors or law firms or somewhere else, people using that term. i only bring that up to say, when he goes on the floor and talks about colored people,

using that language, it's like that sports guy who talked about the negro league. you know what? those words are coming out because, obviously, they're using it in everyday life. people make mistakes all the time. that's just a mistake that i haven't heard in 50 years in the south. >> of course, i guess i wouldn't hear it if it were being said, but, you know, welcome to the 2020s. maga world. you're right, if that comes out on the house floor, clearly, this is the way that guy talks in private conversations, and this is the way that guy thinks. shocking, i guess, to hear it

out loud. it sort of makes you understand and remember that even paranoids have enemies, right? >> right. >> it's not paranoia to think that there's this kind of frank, old style racism out there that continues, even all these decades later. >> i've just got to bring this case up again. jen, it wasn't so long ago that the republican party pulled steve king from iowa off committees and basically ran against him to destroy him because of him doing things so much more moderate. i hate to even use the word -- than what trump republicans are doing every day.

it's -- you know, i'm so optimistic about this country and, you know, we always talk about the mlk quote that he liked to say about justice, you know, the arc of history bending toward justice. i will say, over the past seven, eight years, at least in the trump wing of the republican party, it's taken a massive, wicked, depressing detour, and yesterday was another example of that. >> i mean, it's 6:35, and the republicans have taken my breath away three times already in this show. >> yeah. >> trump, the people on the biden districts voting for the abortion amendment, and then this man talking about colored people. >> no. >> first of all, i mean, these guys know, mark and john know, i have a big facial reaction. >> her arms went in the air, and me too, we were both like, no. >> but what they were talking about, it's so wild to me. also, does this man know

anything about the american military right now? >> no. >> i think it's the most diverse institution in the united states, if not one of the most diverse institutions in the united states. i was on a navy ship recently where they spoke -- one of the officers spoke so proudly of the diversity in their ship, how everyone is from a different part of the country, and they all make it work and learn from each other. not only is it, you know, from the '50s and '60s and racist, but it shows his ignorance about how the military operates today. >> that's because he would say, you think that's laudable diversity. he would say that proves the military is a woke social experiment, like that diversity is not to be admired. obviously, you think that's great, jen. >> we have to fix this. >> what he wants to say is that ship needs to be a little whiter. >> okay. >> so we wouldn't be in this position. we're going to try to take your breath away a fourth time. coming up, we'll talk about the

desantis campaign. ed luce joins us with his new piece in "the financial times" as the florida governor works to reassure supporters of the potency of his presidential bid. "morning joe" will be right back. he snores like an angry rhino. you've never heard an angry rhino. baby i hear one every night... every night. okay. i'll work on that. the queen sleep number 360 c2 smart bed is now only $899. shop now only at sleep number.

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welcome back to "morning joe." look at the beautiful shot of the white house on this friday morning. so down by more than 20 points in a recent poll, florida governor and white house hopeful ron desantis is once again looking to calm nerves among his donors. a new campaign memo obtained by nbc news shows the desantis team trying to reassure supporters by laying out a plan for the future of the race. the memo is labeled confidential and dated july 6th. it says the campaign will

continue its focus on early nominating states and will consider adding more resources to super tuesday states in the fall. the memo also argues the only people who could viably win the primary are him or former president trump. it also previews tough weeks ahead for senator tim scott, saying he will, quote, receive appropriate scrutiny in the weeks ahead. this as "politico" reports some top desantis donors are starting to consider senator scott instead, drawn in by a more traditional republican rather than the combative styles of both trump and desantis. willie. >> they're worried about tim scott for starters. the governor's team is looking for a possible reset of its media strategy. a number of sources tell abc news the desantis campaign has been weighing a shift in media strategy, while the governor has largely shunned mainstream media

outlets and stuck to friendly platforms like fox news and conservative media outlets. that may be be about to change. several sources telling abc news the governor's team is leaning toward having desantis begin doing mainstream network interviews and possibly some town halls. the move would mark a shift in strategy for the governor's team, who sources said that earlier in the year, desantis could afford to engage with only friendly platforms and media. abc's request for comment was not returned. joe, it'll be a hard pivot, if you attacked the media, polls showing you're not doing well, saying the media is out to get you, saying they don't want you to be the nominee, and then say, sure, i'll sit down with abc, nbc or cbs. >> that strategy doesn't work, though. his strategy of shunning the

media is a failed strategy, and it'll never work. john heilemann,let talk about donald trump and, specifically, donald trump and this show. in 2015 and 2016, people said, donald trump is on too much. this bears repeating. we told every presidential candidate, when you're out on the road, you'll want to be on the show, pick up the phone, give us a call. let me just say, he's a friend of mine. i'd known him for a long time. i was begging jeb bush to come on the show. everybody in jeb's camp were like, no, no. they were so careful. they were so scared. jeb bush, so tight. jeb bush, i've said this time and again, one of the smartest guys, one of the best leaders i've seen up close in all my years of politics. he froze. i'll say it, too, hillary

clinton 2016, despite the fact we always had great interviews with hillary clinton in 2008, her campaign team so tight. she never came on our show. >> sorry, jen. >> i remember -- >> sorry, jen. >> -- when -- >> hold on, joe. she's right here. you're talking about jen. remember when you guys made us fly to some southern state and drive on a dirt road for two hours to sit in a school with her for 20 minutes? >> oh, i forgot about that. >> i mean, that was just -- you know what i mean? come on. tv, man. >> we were on the phone, though. >> right? >> let me address this to jen then and jump in. >> she's sitting right here. >> no, no, but jen would always be saying, she'd be very polite, very loyal, and she'd say, it's above my pay grade. >> and because i'm very polite and loyal, i'm not going to say all the reasons why we weren't able to do your show as much as i would like. >> thatta girl.

>> we never went on "the circus," not once. >> you tried. >> here's the bigger point, though. >> you're right about the bigger point. >> if hillary clinton had come on the show in 2016 early on, would have been like 2008. it would have been great for her. we would have had a discussion. her donors would have seen her. it would have worked well. if jeb bush had come on the show, i mean, we're like freeform. we kind of go. people dry out their riffs on our show, then things work, goes out on the campaign trail. >> it's not just our show. >> they get donors. >> this show is a unique situation, though, it lets you go, lets you talk. >> bring it home, joe. >> here's the point. all of these people have always been afraid, not just of our show but of the media. now, let me bring up donald trump. donald trump and lindsey graham were the only two people that took us up on our offer, and

they called. lindsey only called a couple times, but, jen, donald trump called, like, nonstop. i'm here, i'm there, and it made a lot of people angry. i always call the campaigns and would say, "come on the show. talk. you don't like what he said. we don't like what he said. come on, jeb. tell us why it doesn't work." if not jeb, i'm talking a jeb's people, or john podesta. "come on, john, what are you guys afraid of?" it didn't work for them. jen, it's not working for ron desantis either. this is a very long way of saying, you know, you hate donald trump, hate he was on the show a lot, well, he was on the show because he wasn't afraid of his shadow. it made a difference. >> people can tell. >> it's till kiln ingkilling hi?

>> desantis is scared of the shadow, and it's all here. first of all, marking the memo confidential that you wrote to leak to the press, backdating it to july 6th, talking about resetting the media strategy, saying that, telegraphing that you're going to go after tim scott who donors are now saying, well, now they're looking at tim scott. donors think they're controlling events here, but they're commentinge ly really looking f an alternative to trump, whether it's desantis or scott. it's all of the markings of a campaign that just can't get traction. the staff is trying to do all the things the staff tries to do to reset and show we can still win this. we have an early state primary strategy. >> let me just -- >> it doesn't work anymore. >> let me interject one contrast here, right? the mystery around hillary clinton, as an example of this, she was great. she could do a great interview.

she went on howard stern after she lost, did a 2 1/2 long interview, in which she was masterful. masterful, human, emphatic and sympathetic, and everybody said, howard stern begged her to do the show for two years, didn't go on the show. she went on the show, and she was fantastic. joe, this is the problem. there's a reason they didn't want ron desantis to come on this show and go on mainstream media shows, they were afraid he would not be good. that's not why you didn't want hillary clinton to come on this show, it wasn't that you thought she couldn't perform. i think part of the reason why the shift -- this shift is a sign of desperation is, they hid him because they didn't think he could handle these forums. he doesn't like the press. he has rarely done mainstream interviews. they didn't think he had the chops to come on "morning joe" and have a interview or go to a place you have tough questions. they hid it because they thought

it'd protect him from forums he wouldn't be good in. now, they're desperate. they're saying, he is tanking in the friendly forums. we've got to do something different. >> yeah. >> it's a desperation move. the reason i think it won't work is the fundamental problem is still he's not going to perform well in these environments. so i do think it was a mistake to have -- you can't be a presidential candidate if you can't come on "morning joe" and other places like this and do well, but there was a reason he didn't come on. it wasn't because this is a lion's den. interviews like this, they don't do it in florida either. >> joe. >> you saw chris christie come on, and mika disagreed with him on a lot of issues. we disagreed with him on a lot of issues, but he got a say. i think it was good for chris christie. >> i got so many texts. >> i think it's good for everybody that comes on this show. or other shoshows, not just our show.

let's depersonalize it, other shows. mark mckinnon, if they don't think he can hit a curve ball, then don't send him up to the big leagues. >> yeah. >> by the way, you learn to hit a curveball in the big leagues by facing curvebals in the big leagues. they never had a choice. this was a stupid strategy from the start. you know, maybe he starts out by doing local radio stations in iowa or new hampshire. that's what i would do with the candidate, get the reps in. you can't hide from the press. >> well, you know it's a problem when months into the campaign, they're saying, maybe we ought to let people actually see him. the problem, as a lot of people said about desantis, it's not that voters don't like him, he doesn't like voters. we think about the people we've worked with, for and cover. hillary clinton, george w. bush,

reagan, go down the list, obama, these are people that love to be out with crowds, love people. that comes across ultimately. that's what you want in a president, is someone that actually likes to interact with people. that's a fundamental problem for ron desantis. >>joining us now, ed luce of "the financial times" who writes, "great ron desantis campaign train wreck." ed, why is it a train wreck? >> it's a train wreck because he started with every advantage, you know, the money, frontrunner status in a lot of polls after the re-election as governor last november, big donors, "the new york post" called him "defuture." it began with the launch with

elon musk on twitter spaces, and his numbers have been plummeting ever since. the ticket per head, you know, for hamptons fundraisers for desantis has been halved. he is trading at a deep discount, if you like. i think the reason for this is, for all his talk of being a real man and the machismo and this graphic novel superhero image that he likes to project, he has been tiptoeing around the dragon, the dragon being donald trump. you shouldn't tell, you need to show who you are, what you claim you are. there's no way of winning this nomination unless you take on the frontrunner. so i think it's fatally flawed anyway. he is not likable. he doesn't like people. he doesn't like unscripted encounters, and i think that's why he's not appearing on "morning joe" and others.

but his strategy is deeply flawed. the strategy needs to recognize that the frontrunner is in charge of a cult, and you cannot take down a cult unless you take it on directly. chances are he will fail, but the current strategy is guaranteed to fail. >> ed, would you agree with me, the problem is not really the strategy, the problem is the candidate? the problem is ron desantis himself. we've seen candidates reset their strategy. we've seen candidates get better in the middle of a campaign after they were trailing. barack obama did that. he was behind hillary clinton, but he changed, found his voice and found his momentum. but it just seems to me that desantis just isn't the guy who

can do that, or do you think there is a possibility that he could turn it around? >> i very much doubt it. i mean, i share the premise of your question. you know, the last thing i see my role in life is being an adviser to ron desantis, how to turn his fortunes around. what we're talking about applies to any non-trump republican. say glenn youngkin gets into the race, and i believe rupert murdoch is looking for that to happen. big donos are looking elsewhere. say youngkin gets in. the same strategic dilemma of how you take on trump and what you diagnosis trumpism to be is going to confront him as he confronts desantis. but i share your premise, i don't think ron desantis is a likable or plausible politician.

i think that this tendency of his to this that what is really catering to conservative twitter and not necessarily to ordinary voters, these very sort of contrived, cultural positions are too clever by half. by either factor, the guy just isn't getting out there and persuaing voters. >> yeah. you know, mika, ed brings up such a great point and something i don't understand about the republican party in general. they have to own the libs, have to own the libs. i understand that, but everybody is moving to florida. he can talk about, you know, there was the massachusetts miracle. desantis could talk about the florida miracle or whatever he wants to talk about. but talk about economics instead of, like, i'm going to pick one

cultural scab after another cultural scab and make everybody bleed out and feel uncomfortable. >> yeah. >> i'm going to do for the rest of america economically what i'm doing for florida. there's a reason i have the biggest landslide in florida history. there is a reason why republicans won from pensacola down to key west. it's because we focused on first thing's first. we got the schools opened. we got the businesses open, and we got the economy running again. that's what he has to do. >> it's a great message. >> i don't understand, again, all of these stupid cultural battles that republican twitter likes. let me just say, this is the mistake that 15 democratic candidates made in 2020. they were playing to left-wing twitter. joe biden kicked their ass. >> well, and adding -- >> ron desantis is playing to right-wing twitter, and it is not working for him.

play for main street republicans, and start winning. trump has right-wing twitter. he has the insurrectionists, the weirdos, the freaks. get main street republicans who want their businesses open, their schools open, and their economy running with low taxes and low interest rates and less regulation. that's what they want. do that. start building momentum. that's the contrast to insurrectionists, weirdos and freaks. >> the new piece is online for "the financial times." ed luce, thank you very much for being on this morning. it's great to see you. mark mckinnon and gene robinson, thank you, both, as well. great to have you on. still ahead on "morning joe," the head of the republican national committee is still embracing donald trump's big lie.

we'll show you that moment. plus, our next guest writes, "yes, joe biden is old. is that all republicans have to run on?" we'll talk about the latest piece in "vanity fair." that's all ahead on "morning joe." we're back in just 90 seconds. ♪ today, my friend you did it, you did it, you did it... ♪ centrum silver is now clinically shown to support cognitive health in older adults. it's one more step towards taking charge of your health. so every day, you can say, ♪ youuu did it! ♪ with centrum silver. nexium 24hr prevents heartburn acid before it begins. get all-day and all-night heartburn acid prevention with just one pill a day. choose acid prevention. choose nexium.

when did you start being an election denier?

>> problems with 2020 was real. that isn't election denying. i'm from wayne county. we had a woman sending a note saying, i was told to backdate ballots. that is concerning. when you have friends poll watching and kicked out, that's concerning. we have every right to look at that, and everybody should have a little more concern about, listen, look at -- >> wait a minute. are you saying as the chair of the republican party that you still have questions as to whether or not joe biden was the dully elected president. >> joe biden is the president. >> i didn't ask you whether he was the president. do you think he won the election? >> there were lots of problems with 2020. >> did he win the election? >> ultimately, he won the election, but there were lots of problems with the 2020 election, 100%. >> that's fair. >> i don't think he won it fair. i don't. i'm not going to say that. >> you're saying that you're not sure, as the republican party chair, that he was the legitimately elected president. >> i'm saying there were lots of problems with the 2020 election, and we need to fix it going forward. >> hmm, hmm, hmm. the chair of the republican national committee, ronna

-- ronda mcdaniels, casting doubt about joe biden's win in 2020. joe, your thoughts? i have no words. >> i mean, that's why you lose the next election, because you are lying about losing the last election. willie, you know, we grew up playing sports. what if at the end of every game we lost on our football team, our coach took us in the locker room and said, "you guys didn't really lose. you didn't lose 24-3. you really won." like, because they've got a leader, willie, of the republican party that continues -- i'm talking about donald trump here -- that continues to lie about losing. they're not going to -- they're not going to learn the lessons they should have learned from that loss. >> yeah. i mean, the good game, good game, good game is fundamental

to our culture, right? after every little league game, we teach our kids to shake hands, no matter how painful the loss was. you look at the scoreboard. you did actually lose the game. i know it doesn't feel good, but you move on to the next. congratulate your opponent and try to win the next one. it is painful to watch that. we should remember that her job at this point, and has been now for six or seven years, the head of the rnc, is to do whatever donald trump wants. to do whatever he tells her to do. remember, she's someone who reportedly struck romney from her own name at the request of donald trump because he didn't like mitt romney. just remember who we're talking about here. >> got it. >> her job is just to do whatever he tells her to do. keep that in mind as you listen no that. yeah, if you want to look back at the 2020 election, that argument was rejected by voters in the 2022 midterms. that's what you're going to get from donald trump if he is your nominee. rallies in the year 2024 talking about how the year 2020 was stolen from him. >> good point. living in the past and living in

a lie. jen palmieri and john heilemann are still with us. joining the conversation, we have u.s. special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay. and special correspondent for "vanity fair" and the host of "the great fast politics" podcast, molly jong-fast. you have a piece that builds on the discussion we've been having the past few days. it is entitled, "yes, joe biden is old. is that all republicans have to run on?" you write, in part, quote, republicans are hoping they can use age as a cudgel to beat the president, but opening the door to this could boomerang back at them. the problem for republicans is that biden is only three years older than trump. in 2020, voters compared the two men, and biden won. it's hard to imagine how, three years later, biden will seem less healthy than trump. after all, biden is athletic. he starts every morning on the

peloton and lifting weights. he goes to bed early. biden is photographed exercising, and trump is known for his love of fast food, though leans more toward mcdonald's than dairy queen. we could see a different presidential contest than 2020, but it is looking more and more like we'll see 2020 part two. this means that political parties have a chance to learn from their mistakes, but republicans probably won't, as they appear poised to nominate trump despite all of his baggage. they think they can nail biden on his age and make voters vote against him for it. voter turnout is typically highest among people over the age of 65, so by making biden's age a central focus, republicans risk alienating these very voters. that was the point that we were talking about all along with joe biden. people over 65, especially as people are living longer,

especially talking about women, 50 over 50, we're about to roll out the 50 over 50 list honoring women in their impact, i don't think this can be the only thing republicans have. >> it seems it is, though, and it's funny because they did this in 2020. they diminished -- >> they have hunter. >> they diminished expectations, saying, oh, biden is a disaster, not a good auritor, and he got up in the debates and blew us partially, he did a good job. partially, he diminished expectations so much, it helped biden. they did it to themselves. >> john. >> jen, you know, i ask you about this, right? if i'm in the white house, it's a thing people don't like to talk about. we talked about how great joe

biden was on this foreign trip. he's been great. he's been great. you're a political director in the white house, still looking at this data. you know how political directors are in the white house. two-thirds of your party didn't want -- don't want the president to be the nominee of his party. you're looking at people on a widespread basis in the country who say, i'm worried about a president in his 80s. how do you address -- i mean, it's a reality. >> yeah. >> it's a reality, people have this perception. people can say, oh, the media creates, whatever. doesn't matter. people in the country know 80-year-olds. they know what that means. doesn't mean the president -- the president does it every day, performs his job. but as a political and communications matter, if that is the main thing joe biden, if he clears that bar, he's got clear sailing, what to you do to create a strategy for assuaing people's concerns in the electorate. how do you do it? >> yeah, i mean, it is a

legitimate issue, and it's a real question. 80-year-olds, he'll be 86 the end of the second term. i think that you -- i would embrace it to some degree, and they are starting to do this more. he is doing it through humor some, but more so to say, you know, remember when george washington, the moment the revolutionary war, and there's a big morale problem on the u.s. side, and he gave a speech to the troops and had to put the speck spectacles on. he was like, i'm sorry, my eyes have grown weak in service to my country. everybody was like, we need to back him up. fdr, the most feeble president saying, i am old but i'm wise, and this is the leadership we need. you have to show that he can do the job. but i think, you know, molly, what you did really well in this piece, to lay out, is sort of the litany of the issues that

are no longer there for the republicans to make hay out of. go through that. the murder rate is down. the border is better. the things they used to run on that they can't now. >> the border numbers, there are so many things that were the central focuses that they can't do anymore. also, age is not an issue if, you know, biden is running against desantis, who is 44, it's one thing, but if biden is running against someone who is three years younger than him, who had covid, whose administration -- >> with two indictments and more coming, a lot of stress in his life, i would be worried about his health. >> he also, you know -- we know his administration was not honest about how sick he was. >> yeah. >> willie. well, when joe biden has been asked about his age, he said simply, "watch me." the world watched the president in europe this week wrapping up a five-day european trip in finland yesterday with nato's newest member. finland ended decades of

diplomatic neutrality in april when it became the 31st member. the move also significant because the country shares 830 miles of border with russia. president biden yesterday celebrating finland's membership and nato's united front against russian president vladimir putin. >> mr. president, at this critical moment in history, this inflection point, the world is watching to see, will we do the hard work that matters to forge a better future? will we stand together? will we stand with one another? will we stay committed to our course? this week, finland and the united states and our allies and partners said a resounding, loud yes, "yes, we'll step up. yes, we'll stand together. yes, we'll work to a stronger, safer, more secure world." >> katty kay, the president is back in washington, back at the white house after the five days. extraordinary to watch the president stand with a new member like finland to welcome an upcoming new member in sweden

and offer the potential of admission to ukraine itself. as you look back now on this week, what are the big takeaways? >> yeah, i was speaking to a former state department official who said this is the most important nato summit since the end of the cold war. this has redefined nato for the future and has rejuvenated the alliance. part of that is because vladimir putin miscalculated. he went into ukraine and thought the west would crumble, the alliance wouldn't hold together. but it is also clearly because of joe biden's leadership. i mean, nobody in europe would dispute that. if the american -- nato is always america. but this nato at this moment is joe biden's nato. imagine if this had been donald trump in the white house. this is what europeans are talking about. if this had been donald trump in the white house when russian troops went into ukraine, nato wouldn't have responded in the way that it did. it's really down to joe biden, his history and commitment to

foreign policy, mika knows this, over the years, all the work he did with foreign policy experts, particularly his grounding in the cold war period of our history, that made him so good at what he's done the last year and a half. europeans, of course, people will look at the age issue. they're going to look at domestic issues, but in terms of what he's done on the world stage, this has been phenomenal, his ability to rally nato, expand nato. i don't know what he said to president erdogan to make him back down on sweden, but turkey dropped its objections to sweden joining. we have an alliance that is stronger and healthier than it has been, really ever since the end of the cold war. >> no question. meanwhile at home, the republican controlled house voted last night to include dozens of controversial amendments to the national defense authorization bill. among the measures are limits to the d.o.d.'s diversity initiatives and the approval to roll back a pentagon policy that

guarantees service members access to abortion. far-right republicans also tried to push proposals that would limit america's involvement in ukraine, but those failed. a full house vote is expected today. for more on this, let's turn to democratic congresswoman mikie sherrill of new jersey. she's a member of the house armed services committee. she's also a navy veteran. i think i want to ask you from that perspective, as a navy veteran, what do you make of these efforts by house republicans? >> you know, mika, it's really hard to know what to make of these horrible amendments that we saw last night. we passed this bill, this bill we passed in a bipartisan way for almost six decades through the house, we passed it out of committee with just about everyone on the committee voting for it, widely bipartisan. then we get it on the floor, and because the republicans have

really ceded so much power in places like the rules committee, certainly on the floor, too, the far-right extremists in their conference, we saw this addition of amendments that just are unsupportable. things like saying if you are a service member and you need to travel for reproductive health care, an abortion, we're not going to support that. even if the state you're in, such as texas with about 120,000 service members, doesn't offer full reproductive health care. it's really shocking to see a travel ban, to see the dei programs unfunded. you know, when i was a leader in the navy, i wanted to understand my troops. i wanted to make sure they all felt like a cohesive unit, that i could lead well, and any sort of training to that effect was incredibly helpful. so to see these members of congress to be so out of step, not just with the american public, but with our military,

is really shocking. >> congresswoman, it's good to see you this morning. you're going to be testifying, in fact, on the other side of the microphones about the importance of getting this legislation through, given your experience, as mika said, flying helicopters in the united states navy. what will you bring to that conversation as someone who has served, not just somebody who was a congresswoman trying to get this through, but as someone who has served? what is the holdup from senator tuberville? what is this holdup on the legislation by some members in the house. >> what does that look like to somebody currently serving in the united states military? >> well, willie, i'll go one better, coming at this as a woman who served in the armed forces, and i'll talk to you as a woman who has a daughter who is considering serving in the armed forces and what that looks like to a 17-year-old, what that looks like to someone from new jersey who is contemplating getting orders to anywhere across the country or across the

world. i served in corpus christi, texas, when i was in the military. she very well could do that and doesn't have a choice. that is your duty, to follow the orders where the military needs you. so a young woman contemplating serving in a state that doesn't provide abortion services, and we now know that 46% of the country doesn't provide that. 46% of the women serving don't is access to that where they serve. so, you know, here she is looking at this possibility. here we are in the military, a recruiting shortfall, and she's looking at what the united states congress is doing, saying they might ban her from traveling out of state to seek abortion care. what do you think that does to the young men and women who want to serve? what does that do to the young black person who wants to serve and is being told, basically, that, no, we're not going to really lift a finger to make sure that when you come into our military, you feel like you're part of the team and we want to

make sure your leadership has you as part of the team. what do you think that does? what do you think it just does to young people in general when they're saying, "look, i like a diverse workforce. i want to serve. i want to have access to good health care. but, man, this military looks like it's taking huge steps backwards. i don't see myself in this military." it's crazy. >> congresswoman, we shouldn't have to make the case, i think, anymore for diversity. there are just so many studies around the world now that show that organizations with more diversity in them perform better, whether they're corporate organizations, whether they're militaries, whether they're governments, but it seems that's kind of the situation we are in. you've served around the world. you know the intelligence of all of this. tell me a little bit about what this does in terms of the u.s. military's perception in other countries, when they see this kind of infighting and the political partisanship there is in capitol hill. i heard from people in the

military before who have said, "look, we have three challenges in the world. china, russia, and our domestic politics." lay out how damaging this is in terms of the perception of u.s. stability in the military and other countries. >> let me just say, i, an american citizen, born here, i've lived here my entire life, if i am standing on the floor of the house fighting simply to have our servicewomen and military families have access to choice, have access to good health services, and i don't understand what the heck i'm hearing from the other side of the aisle, if i am hearing members of congress use language that i don't think has been heard on the floor of the house since maybe the 1950s, if i am standing there thinking, what the hell is going on in this body right now, i can only imagine what people outside of this country are thinking. i'll tell you, it doesn't reflect the men and women in uniform who i worked with or who

i continue to work with, it does not reflect their priorprioriti does not reflect their sensibilities, and it certainly doesn't reflect the greater portion of americans i know who want to make sure we have the best fighting force with men and women who feel committed to our military and men and women who know that the people of america support them. >> all right. democratic congresswoman mikie sherrill of new jersey, navy veteran, thank you so much for your insights this morning. and molly jong-fast, thank you for being on. what are you looking at today? >> we'll see if they pass this budget, and, you know, this could end up leading to a shutdown. >> oh, my god. >> is this another day -- will politics today be slow or fast? >> it's always fast, always fast. >> fast politics, molly jong-fast. >> that's her podcast. >> new piece is online for "vanity fair." thanks for being on. ahead on "morning joe," special counsel jack smith's team is accusing donald trump's attorneys of seeking an

unnecessary delay in the classified documents case. we'll take a look at those new court filings. plus, the latest on the hollywood actor strike which started at midnight. we'll go over the impact on the television and movie industry. also ahead, new concerns over a widely used sweetener. what the world health organization is saying about aspartame. really, now? like, we've all ingested it for, what, decades? great. and on capitol hill, there's a new bipartisan push to declassify government documents about ufos. we'll have that reporting. "morning joe" will be right back. i'm jayson. i'm living with hiv and i'm on cabenuva. it helps keep me undetectable. for adults who are undetectable,

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still dark in los angeles, 4:24 in the morning, 7:24 on the east coast on a friday morning. the hollywood actors union approved a strike for the first time in more than 40 years over

pay and the way technology may impact work in the future. this comes after the union, which represents some 160,000 television and movie actors, said negotiations collapsed with studios over issues regarding streaming services and artificial intelligence. beginning today, actors will join screenwriters, who began striking in may, on the picket lines across the country where shows and movies are made. this is the first time since 1960 that actors and writers have been on strike at the same time, effectively shutting down hollywood. the last time it happened, marilyn monroe was starring in movies and ronald reagan was the leader of the actors union. here's what the president of that organization, fran drescher, had to say about the strike yesterday. >> i am shocked by the way the people that we have been in business with are treating us. i cannot believe it, quite frankly.

how far apart we are on so many things. how they plead poverty, that they're losing money left and right, while giving hundreds of millions of dollars to their ceos. it is disgusting. shame on them. they stand on the wrong side of history at this very moment. >> fran drescher there. the president of sag. comecast is one of the companies represented by the motion picture and television producers, mika. >> we'll have more on that story in our 9:00 a.m. hour. to medical news now. some of the world's top medical experts are in disagreement over the possible health risks of a popular artificial sweetener, really popular. yesterday, the world health organization classified the widely used aspartame as a potential cause of cancer.

aspartame can be found on the ingredients label for many low sugar foods and diet drinks, including diet coke and pepsi. the decision was made based on research by a smaller body of cancer researchers within the w.h.o. a second w.h.o. committee, however, maintains the sweetener does not increase your risk of cancer as long as it is consumed at safe levels. that panel says a 150 pound person could drink about a dozen cans of diet soda a day, and their chances of getting cancer would remain the same. in a statement yesterday -- >> what? >> no, you're not doing that. >> but what if a guy that, you know, i weigh a little more than that, i have, like, three dozen a day. >> just a bit more. >> a dozen a day? >> um -- >> it really is. i mean, this is a gray zone, and people don't know about it, but i, mean, i will say, again, usually, you kind of just have

gut instinct, this stuff -- i'm sorry, i love coke. i love coca-cola, it's great. but, you know, you can tell it's not great for you. i'm sorry. >> i mean, the whole soda industry is a little, like, not the healthiest. >> yeah. >> i mean, i'm going to annoy a lot of people, but, like, i had a household that literally, we never drank soda, because why? >> growing up? >> no, my kids, like, my daughter just had a soda recently. she's 27. like, it's just not good. it is something you know is not good. the rest of the stuff we ate was -- >> it's different. a little different in my house, willie. >> i know. >> when we were 5, my mom would give us those hats, and there would be straws. >> oh. >> you know, we'd go around and do that, you know, when i was 5, 6, 7. >> it's just not good. why drink it? >> i don't think it's horrible for you, but, again, it's not

the healthiest. >> no, it's not good. >> it's not the healthiest choice, it's just not. >> didn't we hear this in the '80s? >> we knew this in the '80s, right? >> do what they want to do. it's fine. willie? >> they called it scarborough stew. you emptied out an old pickle jar, get some mountain dew in there, then the fan tafanta, th cola, a wooden spoon and stir it up real good. you have to be hydrated. it gets hot in the south. >> r/c, good one, willie. >> if you have a headache, you sprinkle b.c. powder on top of it, so it chases the head rush, right? am i rush? >> use the hand to stir it around. that's right. it's how you do it. >> okay. in a statement yesterday, the u.s. food and drug administration concurred with that second opinion, writing, quote, fda scientists do not have safety concerns when aspartame is used under the approved conditions. okay. we're going to have to stay on that because it's just

confusing. i mean, is it bad? is it good? okay. on capitol hill -- i mean, i don't think any of the soda is good because of the sugar, but we'll talk more about this. >> listen to the experts. >> on capitol hill, we're seeing a rare show of bipartisanship thanks to ufos, one of the top stories in "the new york times." it highlights a bipartisan measure aimed at forcing the government to release its records regarding unidentified aerial phenomena, or uap. the legislation is backed by senate majority leader chuck schumer and would create a review board with broad authority to declassify documents related to uap and extraterrestrial matters across the government. "the times" points out the measure offers the possibility of pushing back against conspiracy theories that surround discussions of ufos and fears that the government is hiding critical information from the public. we'll stay on that, as well. we've got much more ahead,

straight ahead on "morning joe." first, willie, what do you have for "sunday today"? >> well, i know joe talked to the cast of "oppenheimer." we'll see that next week. i sat down about the same movie with matt damon, who plays the general tasked with recruiting and supervising jay robert oppenheimer during the manhattan project, which was to build the first bomb used over japan in 1945. we talked about that movie, "air," which came out with ben affleck, where affleck directed his old friend for the first time. talks about the shorthand they had. joe, i think you'll attest, just a truly wonderful guy, matt damon. that's his reputation in hollywood, but when you have a chance to spend a bunch of time with him over the course of a day, you see it up close. his resume is staggering. when you sit down with matt damon, the problem is, you don't know where to begin. you know, from "goodwill

hunting" forward, it's 25 years of great movies, great choices, great performances. it'll be fun to let people see that conversation this sunday. >> it really is remarkable, his career. this sunday morning, jack and i, we've already talked about this, he's going to get some hot swiss rolls. >> oh. >> what? we have the cocoa, right? he's going to come in, because he told me the other night, "papa, papa, this is uncle willie's." get this -- >> huh-uh, okay you two. >> jack, by the way, jack, you haven't seen him in a while, he is 6'5" now. seriously. >> i know. >> he is. i still have him, like, in his little swish shorts. anyway, what jack told me, "hey dad, this is uncle willie's 300th sit-down interview," since

you started this thing. >> no. >> 300, that's crazy. >> it is. >> what massive stars you've had. >> thanks, yeah. i know, jack, he keeps a tally on his wall and has been doing it since we started the show 6 1/2 years ago. he goes down and finally made that last cross through the four to make it 300. i know he came down jubilant. yeah, it's been amazing. our first one was in april of 2016. leslie odom jr. was our first guest. through the years, i've ridden around beverly hills in a convertible with al pacino.fish letterman and on and on. matt damon is an appropriate way to cap at 300. hopefully a couple hundred more ahead. matt damon coming up this weekend on nbc on "sunday today." we'll be right back right on "morning joe." subway's now slicing their meats fresh.

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the deconstruction of america begins with and depends on the deconstruction of american men. the left want to define traditional masculinity as toxic. they want to define the traditional masculine virtues, courage, independence and assertiveness, as a danger to society. >> republican senator josh hawley back in 2021 discussing what he calls the decline in masculinity. though the missouri lawmaker has been one of the loudest voices speaking out against these so-called attacks on manhood, his rhetoric has become all too familiar with young men in the country. this is an issue we've discussed on the show before, and for more, we're joined by writer for "the washington post"'s opinion section, christine, and author, entrepreneur, and professor at new york university's stern

business school, scott galloway. good to have you both. christine, you dive into the conversation about american masculinity in a new essay entitled "men are lost. here's a map out of the wilderness." let me read from a part of it because it's really compelling, and it's a hard conversation to have. you say, i started noticing it a few years ago. men, especially young men, were getting weird. for all their problems, the strict gender roles of the past did give boys a script for how to be a man. but if trying to smash the patriarchy has left a vacuum in our ideal of masculinity, it also gives us a chance at a fresh start, an opportunity to take what is useful from models of the past and repurpose it for boys and men today. we can find ways to work with the distinctive traits and powerful stories that already

exist, risk taking, strength, self-mastery, protecting, providing, procreating. we can recognize how real and important they are. and we can attempt to make them pro-social, to help not just men but also women, and to support the common good. in my ideal, the mainstream could embrace a model that acknowledges male particularity and difference but doesn't denigrate women to do so. it is a vision of gender that is not androgynous but still equal, and it relies on character, not biology. certain themes, protector, provider, procreator, still resonate with many men, and should be worked with, not against. but how to implement it? frankly, it will be slow. a new masculinity will be a norm

shift, and that takes time. the women's movement succeeded in changing structures and aspirations, but the social transformation didn't take place overnight, and empathy will be required, as grading as that may feel. what are the challenging moving forward, christine, to actually make these changes? do we have to confront what is happening right now? >> yes, absolutely. first of all, thank you so much for having me to talk about this. i do feel as a very important issue, though i am obviously not a man myself. i think one of the challenges that we've been facing in bringing this issue to the forefront is we do have the statistics, right? we see that for every 100 women who graduate from college right now, only 74% of men do. or only 74 men do for every 100 women. men make up three out of four deaths of despair. so we know that there is something going on. the problem that i outline in this piece, specifically, is

that progressives and the left especially seem to not want to acknowledge this, or at least not acknowledge that men might be a group in need of assistance itself. there's -- i sort of hesitate the talk about men as men, and instead people want to say, well, we need to be good people. but what does that look like specifically? young men especially are asking asking. >> what do you think of christine's piece? how does i reflect what you're seeing in the younger generations? >> i think the piece was an important work, and we're finally having a more productive conversation. we're acknowledging that compassion is not a zero sum game, and we can acknowledge that young men are three times as likely to be addicted, four times as likely to kill themselves, 12 times more likely

to be incarcerated, and recognize it is not a zero sum game. civil rights didn't hurt white people. that gay marriage didn't hurt heteronormative marriage. and acknowledging the statistics and speaking about this problem in societal terms, as we speak about problems in very real issues facing women and non-whites, that we're finally having a productive conversation. also, asking an important question, should a 19-year-old boy who has an education system bias against him on a beh behavior-adjusted basis, boys are more likely to be suspended, five times more likely if you're a boy than girl, should that boy pay for the sins of his father and grandfather? these men are struggling. because of christine and a more productive dialogue, we're having a more productive conversation around solutions, instead of a gag reflection around the issue. unfortunately, negative voices

have filled this void where there was no discussion. >> totally agree. >> well, that's what is remarkable, christine, about your piece. i was reading the piece, and i would get to certain parts and go, wait a second, is she -- wait, she's saying this out loud. this is what everybody has talked about, but they haven't said certain parts out loud. >> that's right. >> but one thing that you really talk about, that i think any parents or people that have known younger women have seen for some time, and it started with, i think, our family about 10, 11 years ago, we would have friends of the family who were young women. it would be like a friday night, and there was somebody they were dating that would say, so you're going out, you know, with so and so. no, he's playing video games. no, he's doing this. no, he's -- well, he's getting -- we weren't prodding,

but we've all had these conversations, and it started ten years ago. i would just say to mika, "wait, a lot of these kids, a lot of these guys in their 20s and early 30s are playing video games and watching porn and staying inside of their house and living with their parents and are not moving forward." we really didn't know what was going on. we know now, and it is not good. that's what i loved about your article. it was like, don't run away from masculinity. don't pretend it's not there. but as you said, and as scott said all along, use those strengths, use those traits and in a way that helps all of society and, as scott says, the key is that it is used to protect others. >> right. i think that's exactly right. this was a question that i started asking myself when i was writing my book, "rethinking

sex," which came out last year. i talked to a lot of young women, and they also mentioned that the men who they were hoping to date were just not there. exactly as you said, they were, you know, at home playing video games and watching porn, or just not stepping up. then talking to guys themselves, they almost seemed confused as to what they were supposed to do. like, are we allowed to talk to women? are we not supposed to talk to women? i'm confused. i guess i'm not going to do anything at all. they're looking for a path forward, but, unfortunately, you know, progressives on the left are not offering a path. instead, they turn to right-wing figures. josh hawley is one of the tamer of the bunch, i would say. people like andrew tate, who has become famous recently after being retweeted by elon musk and, more importantly, being imprisoned in romania for sex trafficking. those are the examples they go to, these awful model of masculinity, because there

aren't better, pro-social models of masculinity they can took toward. that seems like a lack in our society, and it'll only get worse as a vast swath of young men begin to feel more and more lost and disappear. >> scott, i have both a teenage daughter and teenage son, and i have different concerns about each of them. obviously, the challenges for a young woman with social media and so many other things coming up in this world, but also when i think about my young son, and i'm curious what you think about this, he will hear out there things like, toxic masculinity and boys and all these things that have sort of been injected into the bloodstream. there is a generation, which is true, it may not be a welcome thought for some people watching, but it's just true that there are young boys now who are hearing from the time they are, you kno -- that they're bad, they need to temper and tame themselves.

what is it about toxic masculinity? >> it's tame and rage. to not acknowledge that we're having an important conversation about the continuation of sexuality, and we need to acknowledge that everyone deserves dignity. also, we need to embrace those among us who are buy binary, to embrace masculinity. masculinity is a wonderful thing. on the left, we decided masculinity is being more feminine, but the majority of women want men to initiative romantic interest. 75% of women still consider economic viability a key consideration in selecting a mate. it's only 25% for women. so while the world wants the positive aspects of masculinity, young people are told that masculinity is a negative. masculinity is a wonderful thing. just to move to solutions, you're talking about your boy,

the point in a boy's life where he comes off the rails and starts becoming one of these poor citizens, quite frankly, more likely to engage in misogynistic content, less likely to believe in climate change, starts blaming women for his problem or his parents, that point is when they lose a male role model. so i think moving to solutions and helping to redefine masculinity, which we get to do, it is a social societal construct, what we can do is take an interest in the life of a young boy that isn't yours. that is when boys start to fail, is when they don't have a male role model. even to acknowledge that young boys need older men in their lives evokes a negative reaction. it's a wonderful thing to be involved in a young boy's life, and we've been told that anything around special advocacy for young boys is somehow toxic.

this is hugely important that we begin a productive conversation. when we talk about issues facing people, we talk about women. we talk about societal problems. we talk about the need for social problems. we talk about young men, we use words like "level "level up" a "accountability." we can absolutely do something about this. we need tommy brace a modern form of capitalism, we need to lean into it. we need to acknowledge that no cohort in america has fallen faster than young men. >> scott, katty kay here. one of the conclusions we came to, actually, we need to look at the role of men as well. we came across this data that shows in couples where the wife owns more than the husband which is about a third of american couples at the moment. they lie about it on the u.s. census forms. to protect the old idea of what

a marriage should be like. or a traditional marriage. at first i thought it was frustrated and protecting the man's ego but actually there's a more interpretive option that men's options have barely shifted. women can do anything, we were work part time, full-time, or not call. men's options have changed where you need to think about the option that expand the options socially acceptable for men. >> yeah. i think it's important. but the realty is, the number of jobs, the industries that have been outsourced overseas, where the predominant employers were on-ramps to the middle class, manufacturing jobs for young men. if you look at the data, the reality is when a woman starts making more money than a man in a heteronorm tiff relationship, the likelihood that drug use goes up and e.d. drug triples. if we're going to find what is

acceptable for men. that includes women accepting what is acceptable, in terms of men. and i find on the left, we're very good. or the far right, we want to take masculinity to an ugly place and use it to a vehicle. we're making nonwhites back to the '50s and women back to old spain. that doesn't work. but on the left, we want to now not acknowledge adult realities that men are still expected, by the primary motivator of our species, and the opportunity to procreate, the men are still expected to demonstrate the strengths and skills to be a provider and protector. and if you don't brace and celebrate those things and create more opportunities for that ability to be a provider and a protector, you're going to have less household information, you're going to have less children and you're going to have more deaths and despair. if we're going to have an honest conversation, we're going to

have an honest conversation around mating. 1 in 3 in marriage haven't had sex in a year. we're not giving the young men the tools so they can be economically and emotionally viable and form what is the most important basis and fabric of society, and that is relationships. so if we're going to have an honest conversation, let's have an honest conversation. men and women have different criteria for mating. >> so, christine, you know, scott talked about the role that men can have in helping younger men and helping boys as mentors. in writing your book, you said you talked to women and they expressed concern about men not being available. did you come out of that thinking of solutions, roles that women can play? what were they telling you? >> yeah, rethinking sex is when perhaps i started thinking about this question, especially in the context of gender relations.

and i think scott is on to something here where he says that, you know, yes. there are these architypal roles. went want an emotional and thoughtful guy. they also want him to be a provider, at least, you know, potentially one. i do think, though, that there is this question what the models for malehood and masculinity look like today. one of the pushbacks i've gotten to this piece is, while there's not just one masculinity, actually saying that every man has to be in the same box of masculinity is what caused all of these problems in the first place. and i actually think we're in a moment right now that we can begin to expand the idea of masculinity. look for pro-social models. but also more models. not every man has to be the same kind of man.

but we should expect all men to be good men. and, yes, that does mean stepping up in their communities. that does mean trying to be employed. that does mean, actually, treating women with respect. and, you know, trying to understand that changing social tides. not pulling backwards into a sort of defensive posture of misogyny and pretending that nothing has changed. but then, again, women also need to, i think, respect the fact that there is something specific about men, embodied form of humanity, that is different, in many ways, from sort of the embodied form of femininity. and what does that look like in the real world. can we respect those differences while still appreciating each other? not saying that women or better or men are different. but that they're different, and they're equal and share the

responsibility of procreating society together. >> i mean, at least for me and a lot of people, the difference is, make all the difference in the world. i can't tell you, you know, with mika and me, there are a lot of times where, again, i'll want to charge forward and there were some times, where she'll go, pull back, no, no, calm down, take a deep breath. there are other times where, you know, we'll do that. and it will work very well for us. in many ways. but there's always that balance. so, the difference makes all the difference. and what i love about your article is you talked about how women celebrate those differences. and despite what may be the most elite thinkers in our society are saying right now, most women you talk to love those differences. and that makes all the difference. i want to really quickly also

talk about that, but also really quickly, people may be going, why have you guys been talking about this 20 minutes, 25 minutes? i will tell you because we've been concerned. we've been concerned not only about our boys, we've been concerned about our girls that we have. we've been concerned about the society they grow up. and, by the way, for you to say, you should be talking about girls, we talk about girls all the time here because we hurt for them and we're scared for them. but i just want to talk about the political aspect here, too. because you're exactly right. there are people that are preying specifically on young men, in their rooms, online, and when i heard josh hawley talking and when i hear steve bannon talking and when i hear others talking, i'm like, they literally are going off of talking points. they know how to reach these disaffected guys to have them doing extreme things.

i'm not comparing any of them to adolf hitler or nazis. but you can go back to germany. you can see it was always young disaffected males that hitler and the nazis preyed on first to be their thugs and shock groups. >> absolutely. look, society has changed really quickly in the past 20 or 30 years. we've seen change changes in the economy, changes in the workforce. the fact that women have been allowed to go to college and enter the workforce in a really big way has totally changed the structure in society. and the shifting sands mean that men, who i think used to know their place in the world a bit more find themselves confused, a little bit vulnerable. and one thing that vulnerability makes possible, is, frankly, scam artists.

people will take advantage of that vulnerability and that confusion and turn it to something. unfortunately, we're seeing being turned to misogyny, the far-right wing activities, the proud boys, ostensibly not white nationalists, but very far-right group that in part stormed the u.s. capitol on january 6. that was made up of groups of young men who were looking for a leader and looking for inspiration in their lives. and they got together and this is what they decided to do. so this is actually not just a personal risk for men. or that men are feeling sad. and why are we worried about men but this is going to become a problem for all of us, actually. and we even see it politically already. i meaner the gender gap in voting has always been there. but actually, we're seeing an increasingly strong swing of young women voting progressive. and young men, especially men without college degrees, voting

conservative, or very conservative. this is part of the reason why the maga movement has grown in power. >> i wish we had five hours to talk about this, we can have you both back. christine emba, thank you. the new piece entitled "men are loft: it's a map out of the wilderness." scott galloway, thank you for coming on, this is an important conversation and we will do it again. the next hour of "morning joe" starts right now. if you and trump got in the ring, he loves the ufc, in the wing, who would win? >> come on, the guy's 78 years old, i'd kick his ass. >> all right, republican presidential candidate chris christie takes talking tough on trump to a new level there. we've got a lot to get to this morning. including new reporting on who in donald trump's inner circle is talking to special counsel

jack smith about efforts to overturn the 2020 election. plus, the party that doesn't want to politicize the military crams its far-right agenda into the defense bill. we'll explain what's happening in the republican-controlled house. also ahead, some star power is coming to the picket lines. hollywood actors join the writers guild by going on strike. and there are conflicting opinions from top scientists and health officials on an artificial sweetener that is in a lot of products from diet sodas to cereals. we'll go through that debate. joe, you and your diet coke. good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." >> i mean, let me say this, willie, let me say this, okay. so, yeah, i've had a few diet cokes in my day. >> i would say. >> growing up, growing up, i think we all needed three things, number one, of course, willie, we know you never eat a

big dinner before you go swimming, right? >> sure. >> number two, never, ever, ever, mcarthur taught us, don't get engaged in a ground war. and we all from the first sip of diet coke in 1992, we knew tell caused cancer. it's this is okay, but it's probably going to kill me. seriously, we were sitting around having our pop rocks and everything else, put down our tabs and our mr. pimms, we just knew that, this is what killed elvis, this is going to take me down. now mika, mika, a health care nut. she still runs five, six, seven miles a day, she still drinks tab and she continues to swim.

>> wow. >> you know, she's playing it safe. >> willie, remember fresca? >> oh, yeah, fresca is still around. joe, there's so much, the aspartame and the mr. pibb reference, that's fantastic. and joe, when we read this yesterday, joe, i hope this isn't too bleak. we began to prepare your obituary and how we're going to handle the news since you main-lined diet coke. >> stop it, joe, put that away. >> it's a long time right now, this is like in the cancer section. >> please stop. >> i wonder how atlanta feels about that? >> what? >> let me say -- it's just like -- >> exactly.

>> so, anyway, mr. pibb, that was good. >> okay. >> you always feel when you're drinking this, you're kind of like living on the edge. i feel like evel knievel with every sip i take. >> oh, my god. >> you're the guy with the button, you hit a button and a diet kos coke comes into your office. between diet coke, i'll have sweet tea and then i'll pass out because my blood sugar is too high. >> you wonder why your ears hurt. >> playing really loud music. >> and decaffeinated drinks. along with joe, willie and me, we have the associate editor of "the washington post" eugene robinson and here in new york,

the circus is in time, co-host of "the circus, john palmery. and and political strategist mark mckinnon is here. you guys look good. president joe biden wrapped up his five-day european trip in finland yesterday with nato's newest member. finland ended decades of diplomatic neutrality in april when it became the alliance's 31st member. the move was also significant because the country shares 830 miles of border with russia. president biden yesterday celebrated finland's membership. and nato's united front against russian president vladimir putin. >> mr. president, at this critical moment in history, this inflexion point, the world is watching to see where we do the hard work that matters to forge

a better future. will we stand together, will we stand with one another. will we stay committed to our course. this week, finland and united states and our allies and partners send a resounding loud yes. yes, we'll step up. yes, we'll stand together. and, yes, we'll keep working towards a stronger, safer, more secure world. >> president biden delivered those remarks in the very same room in helsinki before former president donald trump met with vladimir putin. that day, the president sided with the russian president's denial of the 2016 election going against the findings of american intelligence. yesterday, the president drew sharp contrast with his comments about putin and the state of the war in ukraine. >> putin's already lost the war. putin has a real problem. how does he move from here? what does he do? and so the idea that there's

going to be what vehicle is used, he could end the war tomorrow. he could just say, i'm out. but what agreement is ultimately reached depends upon putin. and what he decided to do. but there is no possibility of him winning the war in ukraine. he's already lost that war. >> john heilemann, the white house was just absolutely delighted with the contrast. very early on politics, it's all about contrast with your opponent. the white house could not have been happier, to be in the same room five years later where they believe and most americans believe, even most conservatives believe, donald trump humiliated himself in front of vladimir putin. the contrast could not have been sharper, could it? >> could not have been starker or sharper. he not only humiliated himself, there was never a moment more clear unfit for office than at

that moment. it was a shock. literally, donald trump was off the campaign and like crazy, and intemperent. a lot of things, that moment on the stage to the world was a lot of people trying to give trump the benefit of the doubt saying uh-oh, we're in trouble here. i'd say one thing that the white house is delighted with, i'd be delighted, too, people banging this bell, joe biden is senile, joe biden lost his mind. all of that stuff. he's seven hours ahead. he stands up, the press conference went for more than an hour. he's taken hard questions on foreign policy. and looked pretty good. >> yes. not like he didn't have a tough schedule the day before? >> right, tough schedule. tough crowd. he gets in there and does the press conference. not in contrast to what trump did five years ago, giet is up there handling questions on the

world stage and not missing a beat. if i want to run a tape to refute the absurd negotiations of joe biden's senility, i'd run a tape on that. people around this table couldn't do that at this event. >> that's right. >> this week with inflation, that's a pretty good one. >> win, win, win. and looking like he is, statesman on the world stage. >> yeah, there was the night before and lithuania, even going back to the finnish reporter who continued to question america's commitment to finland as part of nato, he's like, no, no, let me go back and correct you. i also want to know, does anybody know, who decided that the trip would end in helsinki? because it was a genius move.

i'm not clear if the white house said let's go back to helsinki five. it couldn't have been better if that was baked from the nordic leaders themselves. either way, still so breathtaking that moment from trump. >> really was. >> i still gasp when i hear it. >> me, too. >> and that contrast for biden not just showing american leadership, but also being so great at nailing that speech and that press conference. >> so, joe, how does he continue this type of momentum in terms of not just the optics, but a real kind of generating a sense of having complete control over the situation? what's different at the nato summit? >> well, nothing's different. and that's the thing. i will say this, mika. following up on what you said a couple days ago that got you on the red in the dredge report.

which is actually pretty big when they put you in the red. they do have to schedule better. i thought it was important for them to say, you know what he's been going night and day. we're going to let him take off for the dinner. of course, plan that ahead next time. but little things like that make a big difference. >> but look at this, joe, joe, joe -- look at this, everything here is tightly produced. beautiful. everything here allows these world leaders to do what they do. and there's no concern about the small things. and i would suggest that i said that, i guess, put me in the red, is taken seriously when he comes back home. because this president is good at what he does. >> but there are still people -- >> uh-huh -- >> i just always told people that the president is very sharp, if you say something or write something, there have been times he's called and he's

refuted it very sharply. i've talked to foreign leaders that have had conversations with him that said he was on top of every issue, and to the degree that they were actually -- some leaders have told me that they were have been surprised with the contrast of image in public and the joe biden behind closed doors. because he is so sharp. but he's on top of everything. so much of it has to do with presentation. i will say, also, for any trumpers who say, oh, my god, they're talking about how he might have to take a rest once in a while. please, you're talking about donald trump who is did nothing but watched cable news all day. i'm sure in mar-a-lago he probably has it shoved in the drawers. gene, if we were talking still that would be one thing, we're

talking matching reality with perception. and bill clinton had a good saying if a turtle shows up on top of a fence post, it didn't get there by accident. nato did not expand the historic limbs and had it by accident. it was joe biden, along with his equal partners that masterminded this. nato allies will tell you they look for america for this. he did this, history will record this whether idiots on the trump right, online, want to admit it or not. history is going to report this. this is pretty remarkable. you look at the economy exploding. just like obama, rightfully get credit along with bush at the end of the term for helping to save the economy. joe biden is going to be credited for moving us beyond one of the great economic crises of our time which was, of course, covid, post-covid. it looks like we may have a pretty safe landing here, for an

economy. >> uh-huh. >> and i just say, this isn't happening by accident. and if people want to focus on him falling on a sandbag or falling off of a bike, that's fine. but while they're talking about that, joe biden's making, you know, europe safe for democracy. >> yeah. anybody who spent any time with joe biden, and for he's been in the oval office, it's reality is nothing like the dystopian picture that republicans are trying to paint of this senile, dottering president. he's just sharp as a tack. and this nato summit, i just thought was stunning. when you look at the nato expansion, when you look at how nato now surrounds the baltic sea in a way that was

unimaginable. when you look at the -- the summit itself, you know, nato doesn't do anything without american leadership, period. and despite what generations of french presidents would like you to believe, in fact, it is u.s. leadership that shapes nato. and that moves nato forward. and this is joe biden. it is -- it is remarkable the state craft that has led us to this point. and as they say, u.s. elections are not usually decided on foreign policy. but i think people just have to give this a look. it's really an extraordinary achievement. and then on top of it, as you mentioned, the economy, we are having a soft landing which is -- which nobody thought was conceivable. and everybody was, oh, wait for

the recession, it's coming, it's coming. it's not even coming. it seems that inflation is being tamed. and the job market is roaring. unemployment below 4%. for a historic length of time. this is a -- this is a record that i think any president would want to go into re-election with. and it's a matter that the campaign is a matter of making the reality shine through the false perception that is being created. >> mark mckinnon, as gene says an objectively successful trip to europe with nato. sweden now being admitted on the path and ukraine getting security guarantees and the promise that they will some day be added to nato. there's three new countries being added to nato in the last three weeks. the economy down, inflation down

to 3%. that's all the substance. with the style, as you watched president biden at vilnius university giving that speech, talking about the american will to stand with nato and stand with ukraine. if you want to make a contrast, watch a donald trump rally in south carolina. you could ask yourself in that side by side, who actually is losing as it trumpists have said of president biden. >> yeah, well, nothing will more quickly put the age debate behind him in weeks like this, and will will stack up more towards re-election. it's been a fantastic week internationally and nationally. when you look at republicans this week trying to fight back against biden they're just punching air because all they've got left is hunter biden, hunter biden. >> they're very focused on that, and far-right maybe outlets as well. literally, that's their lead. hunter biden. >> all you got is hunter. still ahead on "morning

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♪♪ the republican-controlled house voted last night to include dozens of controversial amendments to the national defense authorization bill. among the measures, limits to the dod's diversity initiatives. bans on the military covering gender-affirming care. and approval to roll back a pentagon policy that guarantees servicemembers rights to adoption. and involvement in ukraine but those failed. a full house vote is expected today. democratic leaders have pledged to oppose the bill writing in the statement republicans have, quote, hijacked. and continue to, quote, jam

their right-wing ideology down the throats of american people. that's a quote from the democratic house leadership. joe, once again here, you add senator tommy tuberville to the list what he's doing in the senate. house republicans slowing down, you've been there many times voting on this, something that happens every year, getting the military the money it needs to do its job. >> i'm telling you, i was on the armed services committee, appointed there four times. i can tell you, mark mckinnon, nothing drives military leaders, nothing drives the rank and file crazier than people fighting culture wars. basically, in these military funding battles and, you know, whether it's authorizing or appropriating. and all they're doing, and john thune said it about tommy tuberville, all they're doing is, you know, they're hurting

america's readiness. and critically, republicans also saying, oh, our military is woke and weak when we're actually stronger than ever. because democrats are trying to politicize it and add culture. no, it's republicans that are literally fighting culture wars, instead of funding our troops. >> yeah, joe, i mean, they're clawing their way to the bottom in two ways, first of all, on the issue of abortion, if you saw the kansas memo, and republicans should have gotten the memo and clearly haven't and should be the republican stronghold on issues. i mean we grew up with ronald reagan and john mccain with the notion that republicans would be holding up the leadership of the military is so contrary to the conventional history of the republican party. >> yeah, john heilemann, it's crazy, it's just absolutely

crazy again how politicized this house has become, especially on an issue like this. especially when you have readiness issues. you're actually not only just driving women away who would want to serve, you're also driving a lot of men whose spouses are not going to want to come with them. >> right. >> not want to be a part of this lifestyle. and it seems republicans are doing everything they can to hurt recruitment here. >> look, joe, it's a sum element here of house republicans thinking they have a free vote where the senate is not going to do it. we can pass these crazy amendments, the senate is not going to do anything to become law. that just raises the political question. we were talking about this last night on alex's show. i continue to not understand it. they put in basically, effective ban on abortion for women in the military, by not allowing them to be able to pay for -- to go

back to places to get an abortion if they need one. you know, like, we're here in new york state where you've got five or six biden districts that republicans won, crucially won and were able to take control of the house of representatives. all of those republican members, all of them, voted for this -- effectively the abortion ban. >> that blows me away. >> yeah. guys, how many times do you have to put your hand on the hot stove it's like ouch. like a "simpsons" cartoon like burn your hand, burn your hand over and over again. how much is your hand on fire before you understand this is a losing issue. >> we covered this last night, getting ready to say, oh, obviously, those members of congress voted against this amendment and voted for -- i mean, you can lose your house seat over this amendment. first of all, america is not with you on this issue. and then you, on top of that, you are putting this extra burden on the military?

that is already strapped, that is already -- you know, it's doing great. but recruiting is not easy. it's not easy. i come from a military family, the strain and stress on the families, the spouses, and they're going to put up with all of this nonsense? change of command, tommy tuberville? this is how the military works and you're taking your very unpopular agenda and layering it on top of the military. it's nuts that they voted for. >> and, joe, they couldn't see the ramifications of this, the many layers of ramifications? >> yeah, they don't care. they really don't care. they live in their own world. they live in a bubble. they don't care what the military leaders think. they don't care about the people taking on war, men and women in combat. they don't care about the readiness. they care about districts that are overwhelming red already.

i can tell you, you go to the pentagon, you talk to military leaders. they would be so angry when members would use their positions on the armed services committee, or anytime, to push this sort of nonsense, because it got in the way of focusing on protecting america against threats from china, from russia. >> yeah. >> from terrorists. all of these other things, but, gene, this has been about ongoing assault from republicans. >> yeah. >> over the past couple of years. they trash our military, they trash our military leaders. they say that we should be more manly like the russians? ignoring the fact that, you know, our troops are the best. our military is the most powerful, relative to the rest of the world. at anytime since world war ii. but they keep trashing our military saying they're weak and woke. and so they hurt recruitment in middle america. and they do these sort of

things. they try to social-engineer. they have their social engineering, their cultural wars inside the united states military when what is -- as jen said, what does middle america want, ask kansas, they don't want total abortion ban. ask kentucky, they don't want a total abortion ban. ask wisconsin, 18-49 abortion ban. how did that work out for them? a landslide in the most important supreme court election in years. they're not listening to america here. they're hurting the military because of that. >> they absolutely are. it's a definite impact on recruitment, after all, in the military, you don't get to choose where you serve. and that sort of mobility for

reproductive health is important. i think it's something like, you know, 1 out of 5 members of the military is a woman. you mentioned spouses as well. i mean, this is -- and the substance of this, if this ever became law, this would be a terrible thing for recruitment. at a time when recruitment is not going as well as the military would like. and so, that's the substantive problem. the political problem is, it's not just those seats in new york, those seats that republicans won in biden districts there. but, you know, i can think of a seat or two in virginia, you know, other places in the country. and this absolutely will be a huge ball and chain around the necks of those republicans as

they seek re-election next year. an update on the actors' strike from one of hollywood's top reporters, matt bellamy joins us with the latest on the standoff that could cost the economy billions of dollars. "morning joe" is coming right back. t back my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪ ♪ it was time for a nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once-monthly add-on treatment for severe eosinophilic asthma that can mean less oral steroids. not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. ask your asthma specialist about a nunormal with nucala. i told myself i was ok with my moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis symptoms. with my psoriatic arthritis symptoms. but just ok isn't ok.

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♪♪ during the house debate over amendments to the defense bill, republican congressman eli crane of arizona brought up a proposal to ban the defense department from considering race, gender, religion and political affiliations when recruiting, training, promoting and educating service members. here's what he said, though, when he took to the floor to defend his measure. >> my amendment has nothing to do with whether or not colored people or black people or

anybody can serve, okay? it has nothing to do with -- >> mr. speaker -- >> any of that stuff. what we want -- what we want to preserve and maintain is the fact that our military does not become a social experiment. we want the best of the best. we want to have standards that guide who's in what unit, what they do. and i'm going to tell you guys right now -- >> all right, joe. so they took down his words -- let me tell you something, i had somebody ask me, they grew up in the south when i did. said, you know, is that just what people say behind closed doors? i can tell you, maybe in the 1960s. but i haven't heard in polite society or in sunday school class or behind closed doors at law firms or anywhere else,

people using that term. i only bring that up to say, when he goes on the floor and talks about colored people. >> yeah. >> or using that language, that's something -- it's like that sports guy who talked about the negro league. you know what, those words are coming out because, obviously, they're using it in everyday life. people make mistakes all the time. that's just a mistake i haven't heard in 50 years in the south. >> well, you know, of course, i guess i wouldn't hear it, if it were being said. but welcome to the 2020s. and in the maga republican party. and apparently, because, yes, you're right. if that comes out on the house floor, then, clearly, this is the way that guy talks. in private conversations.

and this is the way that guy thinks. which is, you know, shocking, i guess. to hear it out loud. it sort of -- it sort of makes you understand and remember that even paranoids have enemies, right? >> right. >> and it's not paranoia to think that there's this kind of frank, old-style racism out there. that continues even all these decades later. coming up, our next guest will cast a vote today on a muss must-pass defense bill to fund the military. congressman seth bolden joins us from capitol hill, on his takes where those talks stand now. "morning joe" is back in a

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down by more than 20 points in a recent poll florida governor and white house hopele ron desantis is once again looking to calm nerves among this donors. a new campaign memo obtain by nbc news shows the desantis trying to reassure supporters by laying out a plan for the future of the race. the memo is labeled confidential and dated july 6th. it says the campaign will continue its focus on early nominating states. and will consider adding more resources to super tuesday states in the fall. the memo also argues the only people who could viably win the primary are him or former president trump. it also previews some tough weeks ahead for senator tim scott, saying he will, quote, receive appropriate scrutiny in the weeks ahead. this, as politico reports some

top desantis donors are starting to consider senator scott instead, drawn in by a more traditionally republican, rather than the combative styles of both trump and desantis. willie. the florida governor's team is looking for a possible reset of its media strategy. a number tell nbc news that they're weighing a shift in media strategy. while the governor has largely shunned mainstream medial outlets and stuck to fox news and conservative media outlets that may be about to change. several sources telling abc news, the governor's team is leaning towards desantis doing mainstream interviews and possibly town halls. it will be a sharp shift in strategy saying earlier in the year, desantis could afford to

engage only with more friendly platforms and media figures. a spokesman for the desantis campaign did not return abc's request for comments. >> you know, mark mckinnon, if they don't think he can hit a curveball, then don't send him up to the big leagues. >> yeah. >> and, by the way, you learn how to hit a curveball in the big league, facing curveballs in the big league. you got to get your reps in. so they really don't have a choice, never really did. this was a stupid strategy from the start because, you know, maybe he starts out by doing a lot of local radio stations in iowa or new hampshire. that's what i'd do as a candidate and get the reps in. but you can't hide from the press. >> well, you know what the problem, months into the campaign, they're finally saying well, maybe we ought to let people actually see him. the problem that a lot people said about desantis, it's not that voters don't like him, it's that he doesn't like voters.

and you think about the people that we've worked for and covered, bill clinton, george w. bush, you've got a list, obama, these are people that love to be out with crowds, love people. and that comes across ultimately. that's what you want in a president. someone that actually likes to interact with people. >> joining us u.s. editor at "financial times" ed luce who writes to the paper, great ron desantis campaign train wreck. ed, tell us why is it a train wreck? >> it's a train wreck because he starts it with every advantage, you know, money, and different stages and polls after his re-election as governor last november. big donors like ken griffin, "nd him the future.

and he squandered all of that with a notorious campaign with elon musk on twitter spaces. and his numbers have been plummeting ever since. to take it ahead to fund-raisers, desantis has been harmed. he's now treading in a deep discount, if you like. i think the recent emphasis is, with all of the talk of being a real man, and machismo and the graphic superhero image that he likes to project, he's been tiptoeing around the dragon. the dragon being donald trump. you shouldn't talk, you need to show you are what you claim you are. and there's no way of winning this nomination unless you take on the front-runner. so, i think he's probably what your panelists have been just been discussing fatally flawed anyway. you know, he's not likable. he doesn't like people.

he doesn't like scripted encounters. and that's why he's not appearing on "morning joe" and others. but his strategy is also deeply flawed. his strategy needs to recognize that the front-runner is in charge of the count. and you cannot take on a count unless you attack it on directly. the chances are he will fail. but the current strategy, he's guaranteed to fail. >> ed, would you agree with me, it seems to me that the -- the problem is not really the strategy. the problem is the candidate, the problem is desantis himself. you know, we've seen candidates reset their strategy. we've seen candidates get better in the middle of a campaign, after they were trailing. barack obama did that, on his way to victory, way behind hillary clinton. but he changed. he found his voice. and he found his momentum. but it just seems to me that

desantis just isn't the guy who can do that or do you think there is a possibility that he could turn it around? >> i very much doubt it. i mean, i share the premise of your question, you know, the last thing i see my role as in life is being an adviser to ron desantis as to his fortunes. but what we're discussing applies more generally to any trump republican. let's say glenn youngkin gets into the race. and a lot of big donors are beginning to look elsewhere. let's say that glenn youngkin gets in, the same strategic dilemma of where you take on trump and how you take on trump. what you diagnose trumpism to be is going to confront as it confronts ron desantis. but i share your premise.

i don't think ron desantis is a likable or plausible politician. and i think that this tendency of his, to think what is really catering to conservative twitter and not necessarilyvoters, these very contrived cultural positions are too clever by half and belie the fact that the guy just isn't getting out there and persuading voters. coming up, the common critiques that women hear in the workplace that most men will never hear. and on monday joe hosts a prime time special right here on msnbc. plus, a look at the making of this summer's highly anticipated blockbuster "oppenheimer" his conversations with director christopher nolan and the stars of the film, cillian murphy,

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♪♪ when we talk about ageism in the workplace, we often view it as a bias that affects only older workers. a new study shows that women face age bias whether they are young, middle-aged or older. we can't win! that can impact not only women's ability to rise in the ranks, but the broader economy as well. here to explain, maggie mcgrath and huma abedin.

great to have you back. so this was in harvard business review. tell us more. >> it found that women are subject to and suffering from something they call never right age bias, which i think is not a surprise to anyone at this table. >> what's the right age? >> there is none, according to this. women age 20-40 reported being belittled, demeaned, their credibility was discounted. a 39-year-old woman reported being patted on the head at work, which is horrifying. >> literally? >> literally patted on the head. women in the 40-60 age range reported being passed over for roles and promotions because of assumptions about caregiving responsibilities and assumptions about menopause symptoms. >> are you talking about me behind my back? >> and then the over 60 set told researchers they feel invisible and undervalued.

they feel like their employers aren't investing in their career trajectories. a lot of them are saying i want to work for myself, because that seems like the better way to go. >> they concluded there is no age at which women are not doubted. >> fantastic. >> harvard did a great study a few years ago about women being interrupted. in the supreme court, elena kagan and sonia sotomayor were interrupted the most. i know this is all crap, therefore i'm going to keep going so i feel empowered. i'm going to power through it. of course i'm going to be doubted now. i'm not going anywhere. i'm just getting started.

what about the trajectory for women's careers and the broader impact on the economy? >> i'm turning 48 next week. a friend of my who's looking for a job texted me saying as a woman you're always told you're either too young or too old for a job. that's because the perfect age is when you're a man. we are 51% of the population. there's research that shows women are better investors than men, women repay their loans at a better rate than men do. these are facts. these are not theories. doesn't matter if you're having a hot flash or you're having babies. i think the most important thing is having the conversation. we've had the conversation about racism and sexism in the workplace for a long time. we should add ageism to that conversation. in the work we're doing on know your value is a lot of gen z women say what they desire most

in the workplace is mentomentor. >> what can employers and employees do? >> you hit on it, huma. you have to train workers on discrimination and bias of all kinds. we already train for gender bias, racial bias. we need to train people on age bias, because you can't address and fix that which you have not yet acknowledged. >> i agree with that completely. i think we also have to take jen's example and power through. it's hard. it's easy to say i get that, but that's what we teach, you know, you've got to power through and get your value back in every relationship. by the way, of all people, you two would know how women are criticized. nikki haley being called past her prime and hillary clinton during the campaign, it was cleavage, it was whatever, it was facial expressions. we get judged for everything.

that's very hard to power through. you've seen it. >> it is. i can't count the number of green rooms jen and i would sit in about how hillary should react to the ageist, sexist, whatever attacks she received. i would argue that silence equates complicity. we would just say, grin and bear it, you know, to show power, show that resilience, show these male characteristics of leadership. the reality is you've got to call it out. sexism and ageism and all these things in politics has gotten worse. >> we're going backwards. >> we're 100% going backwards. the southern law poverty center has now male supremacy groups. it was white supremacy groups on the rise in 2016 during the campaign. i think speaking up, calling it out and defending yourself. >> it was a different time in 2016. remember the famous debate in

st. louis when trump was sort of lurking behind hillary and really trying to physically dominate her. she said afterwards, she's like, you know, i should have told him back up, you crazy -- i was like, no, if you had done that, the headlines would have been next day, hillary clinton rattled. and we could not have that. i don't know that -- there are examples of it getting worse, but i think it's more coming to a head. now you can call it out. >> we're past the top of the hour. i do want to get one thing in. it's fascinating how this goes into the political conversation as well and how political candidates are treated. but we're going to be announcing our 50 over 50 list in just days practically. maggie, you say the competition for the list is tougher than ever. why? >> we have more women running for office.

by and large, we see women hit their 50s, 60s and beyond and say, hey, i have time, money and resources to devote to causes that matter the most to me. some people spend their lives working for a for-profit company and they hit their 50s and say i want to work for a nonprofit. they want to change the world. >> thank you so much. we launch into the fourth hour of "morning joe." this morning hollywood actors are standing in solidarity with the writers guild. both are on strike. sag-aftra president fran drescher gave a fiery and impassioned speech yesterday. >> at some point, the jig is up. you cannot keep being dwindled and marginalized and disrespected and dishonored. the entire business model has been changed by streaming,

digital, a.i. this is a moment of history that is a moment of truth. if we don't stand tall right now, we are all going to be in trouble. >> wow. one of hollywood's top reporters matt bell mee joins us in just a moment with more. we begin this hour with president joe biden back in washington this morning after wrapping up his five-day european trip in finland yesterday with nato's newest member, finland. it became the alliance's 31st member. the move was significant because the country shares 830 miles of border with russia. president biden yesterday celebrated finland's membership and nato's united front against russian president vladimir

putin. >> mr. president, at this critical moment in history, this inflection point, the world is watching to see where we do the hard work that matters to forge a better future, where we stand together, where we stand with one another, where we stay committed to our course. this week the united states and its partners said a resounding, loud yes, we'll step up, yes we'll stand together and we'll keep working toward a stronger, safer more secure world. putin has already lost the war. putin has a real problem. how does he move from here, what does he do? the idea that there's going to be what vehicle is used, he could end the war tomorrow. he could just say, i'm out. but what agreement is ultimately reached depends upon putin and what he decides to do, but there is no possibility of him winning

the war in ukraine. he's already lost that war. far-right republicans potentially grinding washington to a halt and hurting military readiness, all over social issues here at home. the republican-controlled house voted last night to include dozens of controversial amendments to the national defense authorization bill, including limits to the d.o.d.'s diversity initiatives and the approval to roll back a pentagon policy that guarantees service members access to abortion. proposals that would have limited america's involvement in ukraine were also put out there, but those amendments failed. joining us is seth malten of massachusetts. he and other democrats have

announced they will not vote in favor of the current defense funding bill. joe. >> tell us why you will not vote for this bill if it's not changed. >> because it hurts our troops. i'm proud, i have been proud every single year to support the defense bill because we need to support our troops. this bill hurts our troops. it doesn't support them. it says women are second class citizens. it says women can't get basic health care. if you're a man, you're fine. but if you want to serve in the military as a woman, good luck. i served in iraq working for general petraeus. the marine who got me that job is one of the best marines i've ever met in my life, and she served with me for general petraeus in iraq. if she needed maybe an abortion,

maybe just some other medical procedure that wasn't available, well, the d.o.d. is now not going to be able to transport her to pay for her travel out of iraq to get basic medical care. what message does that send to our troops? what message does that send to americans when we're trying to recruit? this is a terrible policy. the bipartisan bill we passed out of committee no longer exists. it's become a political talking point for the republicans. >> that's a great way to put it, a political talking point for the republicans. when i was in the armed services committee, you talk to the pentagon, and the leaders there would be like what are they doing over there, joe? why are they bringing social issues into a military debate? let's talk about readiness, let's talk about troops, let's talk about making america stronger and safer.

you know, our military leaders and rank and file people in the military, they hate this debate being hijacked by social issues. they've always said, you want to debate abortion, debate abortion, that's fine, but don't bring us into that debate. we're about protecting america. >> they're making our troops into political pawns. the d.o.d. doesn't want any of this. our troops don't want to be used for politics in washington, but that's what the republicans are doing with this bill. >> senator tuberville is holding up the senate approving military promotions so there is not a chairman of the joint chiefs. can you explain based on your experience in the military the impact that has? i come from a military family. i've had members of my family go

through this process. i know it is quite meaningful in the military. talk to us about how it impacts the military. >> in the marine corps we don't have a commandant for the first time in over 60 years. the commandant sets the policy for the marine corps. we don't have a commandant so that can't happen. one of the smartest things we did in the early days of the ukraine war is we helped the ukrainians take out russian generals. we took out their key leaders and it left the russians in disarray. that's one of the reasons the ukrainians did so well in the early days. now our generals are being taken out not by russia, not by china, but by a united states senator who's never served in the military himself. as a result, deputies have to step up to serve in positions they're not experienced with. you're talking about one star generals taking the role of

three stars. that's embarrassing for our allies where a one star has to step into a meeting where they're expecting a three star. we're basically doing what we helped ukraine do to the russians to ourselves because of one crazy senator. >> congressman, before you go, i know you wanted to touch on the 9-8-8 suicide and crisis number. it's been a year since i was rolled out. i'm wondering if you could tell us about the impact it has had. >> amidst all this political dysfunction in washington, this is an important story. i'm teamed up with a republican across the aisle because we understand the impact of mental health. we passed this bill a few years ago. it's now been in place for a year. anyone in america can pick up the phone and dial 988 if you or a loved one has a mental health crisis. it's extraordinary. it served over 5 million

americans just in the past year. calls are up 50%. texts are up 1,000%. a lot of young americans are getting help through text who weren't getting it before. i was speaking to a school group on the capitol steps a few weeks ago. they asked, what are you doing here? are you doing anything that makes a difference? so i told them about 988 and i told them the specifics i just shared with you. what was most powerful is just after that a woman from another school group came up to me and said, i just want you to know that your law saved my daughter's life. then she introduced me to her 12-year-old daughter. >> thank you very much for being on the show this morning. we appreciate it. >> thank you. turning now to the actors and writers strikes and the last time both groups were on the picket line at the same time was back in the 1960s, when this man

was leading the screen actors guild. >> the master of ceremonies is ronald reagan, president of the screen actors guild. >> the motion picture industry in hollywood is a very fine community, but it's only part of a greater community, a fast growing city. >> members of sag-aftra which represents thousands of actors will join writers on the picket line today, marking the first joint strike in over 60 years. joe fryer has more on the work stoppage that is bringing the $134 billion american movie and television business to a halt. >> reporter: overnight, america's entertainment industry thrown into more turmoil. movie and tv production grinding to a halt as hollywood's biggest stars go from reading lines to chanting on picket lines. about 160,000 performers are now on strike.

last night the cast of "oppenheimer" showed up for their london premier, then left before the screening began to show their support for the strike. >> we said let's just do it. then if they call a strike, we'll go home. >> it's a huge deal to be in lock step with all of my peers. >> i'm very much in support of the unions. i would absolutely stand by them. >> reporter: big budget movie sets will go dark. on one side of the strike, the alliance of motion picture and television producers, the trade association representing big studios like disney, netflix, warner brothers and comcast, which owns nbc universal. on the other side, sag-aftra, the actors union. fran drescher is president. >> i am shocked by the way the people that we have been in business with are treating us. it is disgusting.

shame on them. >> reporter: the actors union is calling for better compensation and benefits including residuals. they also want to make sure their work is not replaced with a.i. the producers union put out a statement saying the deal featured historic pay and residual increases and a groundbreaking a.i. proposal, adding the union has chosen a path that will lead to hardship for countless thousands who depend on the industry. disney ceo bob iger said the strike will hurt an industry that's still recovering from the pandemic. >> it's disturbing to me. there's a level of expectation they have that is just not realistic. >> reporter: the actors join writers who have been striking since may. >> let's bring in matthew bell knee. we had the clip of bob iger there, obviously one of the most

respected names in hollywood and not a guy that sort of wanders off on his own, very disciplined voice. so that seems to be their position. he talked about how the media companies have undergone great disruption and this would just add to it and make matters worse. where do they find middle ground? >> that's a great question, because this is not just a money fight. there are some fundamental issues here. the writers feel and the actors now join them, that they're being left behind in this streaming revolution. netflix came to hollywood, changed the entire business model for the entire industry. and someone like fran drescher, the president of sag who made a great living on a show like the nanny, that doesn't really exist anymore where actors can be on a

show that goes 28 episodes a season and now these shows are 8 or 10 episodes a season. you don't make the same amount of money. the residuals have gone down in streaming. they're really saying what does the future hold for actors. they haven't really articulated what that is yet. >> it's so interesting you say that. i hadn't really put it together until you just said what you said. it answers the question why i see some of my favorite actors who may not be headliners in two, three, four series because they're having to bounce around doing all these different projects to make the type of money that a fran drescher would have made in one network series 20 years ago. >> it's absolutely true. they're only allowed to do that because of some of the pressure that the guild and the talent agencies have put on these

studios. the studios were saying we're going to lock you up and not allow you to do more than one show even though you were only in six or seven episodes. that's a problem as well. the a.i. issue is also a big one for actors. this technology is changing so quickly and the actors want real protection that their likeness, their image is not going to be scanned by a hollywood studio and then used in movie after movie. they hire you for the first movie and then they use your ai double in all the sequels. that's a real fear. we're not there yet in the industry, but they want to nip this in the bud right now so they're not negotiating in five years from a place of defense where this is already happening. >> that is a real danger. anybody who's seen the tom cruise deep fakes -- the first

time i saw it, i was like wait. but you look at the technology. there's no doubt it's something i would be concerned about. the same thing about screen writers. i could go into my a.i. app and say give me a poem about matthew bell mee right now. it would give this remarkable poem about you and what a great journalist you are, et cetera, et cetera. well, that technology is moving rapidly forward to where you could say write me a play about a guy who is a hollywood reporter. put it in, boom, and it'll give you 80% of what you need. >> absolutely.

you can say here's a social network script. write me a script but make it about elon musk, not mark zuckerberg. these programs can do okay. they can't exactly represent the creativity of a screenwriter. but what the writers guild is fearing is studios have these a.i. generated scripts, do a touch up on this, we'll pay you a couple days. here you're a gig writer. you're not owning anything. you're not having any meaningful participation. they're saying this is a tool. we want to be compensated and we want to control how our likenesses are used with this new technology. so far the studios have put forth a proposal on that, but the writers and actors say it's all in the details and it would be very difficult for them to control their likeness under the

proposal that the studios have put forward. so they're on strike. >> that technology is moving exponentially. it's going so quickly. we're talking about where it is in the summer of 2023. i had somebody send me an a.i. generated paul mccartney voice. i said it was good, but i guarantee you in 2024 and 2025 it's going to be indistinguishable from the paul mccartney you would have heard in 1966. >> that's what fran drescher is talking about. did you see her speech yesterday? she should run for congress. she's an excellent politician and speaker. i was shocked. she said we are being replaced slowly by this technology, and if they don't make a stand now, they're going to be fighting this from a place of, oh my god, what happened here, how do we get a piece of it, rather than

putting the rules in place now so they are partners as this develops. >> matthew bell knee, thank you so much. keep us posted. coming up on "morning joe," parts of new york still drying out from last weekend's historic storms. they're bracing for more heavy rain this morning that could cause another round of disastrous flash flooding. governor kathy hochul joins us with an update on that and another issue in her state surrounding an upcoming supreme court case she says has her very worried. you're watching "morning joe." rried. you're watching "morning joe." a? hawaii was too expensive so i brought it here. you know with priceline you could actually take that trip for less than all this. i made a horrible mistake. ♪ go to your happy price ♪ ♪ priceline ♪ (vo) in three seconds, this couple will share a perfect moment. (woman) ♪ go is that? oh wow!ice ♪ but we got to sell our houses! (vo) don't worry.

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it's hot in naples, florida, a live look there. severe weather is wreaking havoc coast to coast. the northeast is recovering from heavy rains and flash floods.

erin mclaughlin has the latest weather updates. >> reporter: for millions living in the west and the south, the dog days of summer are turning out to be downright dangerous, including las vegas, where 73-year-old air force vet christopher malcolm is being treated for third degree burns. >> i sat down on a sidewalk waiting for the bus, and i guess the pavement was hot enough so that i got a burn. >> reporter: sin city residents are bracing for what could be an all-time high of 117 degrees this weekend. across town, an all-out effort to help the most vulnerable. the director used to be homeless himself. >> in life, sometimes it takes rescued people to rescue people. >> reporter: arizona's hot streak is showing no signs of letting up. today marks day 14 of temps over

110 degrees. phoenix looking to tie its record of 116 degrees over the weekend. californians are struggling to stay cool too. in death valley, if the desert region reaches its forecasted 140 degrees, it would be one of the top five hottest temperatures ever recorded on earth. in texas, the demand for electricity reached its highest point ever. >> very overwhelming and hot. >> reporter: while high temps smother some regions, heavy rains and flash floods are wreaking havoc elsewhere. vermont is recovering from two months of rain in just two days and bracing for more. 200 people or more were rescued there this week. a summer deluge for some and sweltering heat for others, posing risks from coast to coast. >> joining us now kathy hochul. upstate new york obviously very

hard hit. how bad was it? >> it was so bad. you talk about storms, but then there's a 1,000-year event, which is extraordinary. i walked the streets. i held the hands and hugged people weeping because their basements had been destroyed and pictures of babies and the wedding pictures were washing down the street. it was horrible and so painful. the sad part is it's coming back again. there's this sense of exhaustion. new york has had its storms before. i had two hurricanes my first week as governor. we had record snowfall in buffalo with that 7 feet of snow. but this is unrelenting. we're in the recovery mode but also preparing for the next thing. we literally just opened up amtrak and metro north trains that have been shut down. it was going to take a week. we got it done in three days. >> i know vermont got hit really hard. how much of the state was

impacted? will they see federal relief? >> we certainly will. you have to hit a threshold of over $35 million of damage. we hit that easily. i spoke to the governor of vermont yesterday. ironically we had a national governors meeting. he was supposed to leave the panel on dealing with disasters and climate events and he was trapped in vermont trying to deal with his crisis. all the governors are feeling the effect of climate change and it is intense. >> more rain is expected, unbelievably. i want to talk to you about a few other things. you had written a piece called "the supreme court case that has me worries for survivors and for my state." tell us about it. >> just when june was ending and you thought the worst was over, the supreme court attacking lgbtq rights and affirmative

action. what else could they do? the case we're talking about is the foundation for this. it said that i as governor no longer have the ability to enforce the law that was on the books for 100 years that you have to have a reason to have a concealed carry weapon. we don't want people walking around times square and on subways and in our churches and schools able to have a concealed carry gun. the supreme court struck down that law one year ago and they're using this year as the foundation. a fifth circuit court in texas said, well, you can't keep a gun from someone accused of domestic abuse, someone who threatened a woman with a gun who went on a shooting spree. >> that seems like a reasonable requirement. >> even texas, a lower court judge said it was so dangerous there was an order of protection that said you can't have guns.

but the circuit court judge said, no, no, based on that case a year ago, we don't have a right to protect these victims. i'm sorry, all hell is going to break loose, because now we can't protect women. 50% of women murdered with a gun, it's because of a known present or path intimate partner, someone they know. these women are going to be so vulnerable. it's personal to me, because my own grandmother who i'm named after was a victim of domestic violence. my mother dedicated her life to helping survivors back in the '70s. no one talked about it. battered women had no rights. they always took the side of the husband. women had no rights. we've finally evolved to a point where you do now, and now the supreme court may in the next term take away our right to protect them from guns. that's what i'm worried about. i am deeply concerned about this. >> there are a lot of pretty

strong support for this point of view. lauren, attitudes are shifting as we see mass shootings almost daily in america, but gun owners, they really want their rights kept. they believe that this is part of their fundamental rights. >> right. there is absolute extremism on the second amendment, which i think most americans reject. we found a huge gender divide between republican women and republican men specifically on the red flag law issue. there were three issues republican women supported ten points more than republican men. one was red flag laws, the other was raising the age to 21, and the third one was the ability to restrict certain kinds of guns like aks. there are all these issues where governors across the country are being restricted by their

ability to act. if we think it's possible the court will overturn this precedent, what is in the power of the governors to do to continue to protect women? >> we'll always look for that carveout. that's exactly what we had to do when it came to abortion rights. we passed laws to protect providers. i want to make sure they're not prosecuting the doctors of new york who are providing these services. and on the guns, last year we raised the age to buy an ar-15, not that they should be allowed anywhere, in my opinion. we also passed a law in our state saying if there's an order of protection to protect someone from harm, they're not allowed to have a gun. i'm going to continue to find a little clause, because i have to follow the constitution as interpreted by a maga court. that is very, very hard for us who want to do the right thing.

you cannot say you're serious about crime if you're not serious about doing something on guns. republicans are not the law and order party anymore. they ceded that. the maga republicans took that away from them. these republican women, the mothers who are sick and tired of being worried whether their young child is going to come home from school, there are a lot of republicans who want us to protect their kids. i'm not talking about maga republicans. >> it's not meant to be snarky. yet another issue when republicans are on the wrong side of america. >> talk about the minority trying to control what the

majority does. also, this was the party that was supposed to want power to go back to the states and let states decide how things like guns and women's health care should be governed. in your piece, you try to quantify how many women would be at a risk if your ability to do this was overturned. i think the number 9,000 sticks in my head. >> we have 80,000 people victims of domestic violence every year. i changed the red flag law. a red flag law, very simply is this. if someone sees a sign that an individual could do harm to themselves or others, we have the right of society to protect ourselves and find out whether they have access to guns. because i toughened that law we went from 1400 orders issued a year to over 10,000 today. that's 10,000 people who are

protected. other governors can do this. it's in their power to do this. >> joe, jump in. >> governor, we've been talking all morning about how extreme republicans in the house have hijacked a defense spending bill. they're able to do that. and extremists like marjorie taylor greene have a huge say right now in house politics. the freedom caucus has a huge say in house politics in large part because of boxed redistricting plans in new york state going into 2022. democrats lost five, six, maybe seven seats possibly. the new york high court is going to be hearing a redistricting case, and they're actually going to allow the commission to actually do the work here. should they do that?

i know it's a different branch, but how important is it that the commission is allowed to do their job? >> joe, you hit right on it. the path through hakeem jeffries becoming the speaker of the house of representatives and putting democrats back in charge and stop this insanity goes right through new york state. what happened last year was that a judge in a rural county who was unaccountable to anybody picked somebody else in another state to draw our lines, subverting the ability of our legislature to do their jobs as required by law. this year we're fixing it. i signed an amicus brief in support of the lawsuit that challenged those lines. it's a reset now. the independent redistricting commission will do their job, go before the court of appeals, i have no doubt. i feel fairly confident that the right result will happen. in 18 months, we're going to take back this country. i served in congress when the

republicans were in charge when the tea party had just taken off. how quaint is that era compared to where we are now? bring back the tea party. you could least have a conversation. look how far we've fallen. hope is on st way. if all these republican mothers join with us across the country and say i want my kids protected, i don't want people who are abused by an individual who uses a gun to take their life. guess what? it's going to be a new day in america. >> mika, you heard it here first. bring back the tea party. [ laughter ] >> we bring this up because, again, i don't think people understand how important decisions made by local and state judges are. kevin mccarthy would not be speaker of the house right now were it not for a rural judge

that stepped in and took away the ability of a commission to actually draw the lines. i mean, new yorkers drawing the lines for new yorkers. >> absolutely. >> democratic governor of new york kathy hochul, thank you very much. lauren leader, ceo of all in together, thank you as well. coming up on "morning joe," federal prosecutors want to know if former president trump knew that he lost the election. they're turning to jared kushner to help find that out. the latest on his testimony before a grand jury straight ahead on "morning joe." raight ahead on "morning joe. trying vapes to quit smoking might feel like progress, but with 3x more nicotine than a pack of cigarettes - vapes increase cravings - trapping you in an endless craving loop. nicorette reduces cravings until they're gone for good.

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special counsel jack smith is opposing former president trump's request to delay the

classified documents trial until after the 2024 election. according to a court filing yesterday, the special counsel rejected the trump team's arguments that a fair trial could not be convened ahead of the presidential election. prosecutors cited the speedy trial act of 1974, which stated judicial officers should set trials at the earliest practical time, with allowances for only limited delays in limited circumstances. prosecutors then urged judge aileen cannon to set the trial start date for december 11th, as originally requested by the government. meanwhile, special counsel smith's team appears to be piercing the layers closest to former president trump as prosecutors weigh whether to bring charges against him in connection with efforts to overturn the 2020 election. the "new york times" reports prosecutors have questioned multiple witnesses in recent

weeks about whether trump privately acknowledged he had lost the election in the days after it happened. that includes trump's son-in-law jared kushner, who testified before the grand jury in washington, d.c. last month. a person briefed on the matter said kushner maintained it was his impression trump truly believed the election was stolen. others have reportedly testified trump knew he lost to biden. the times reports this line of questioning suggests prosecutors are trying to establish whether trump was acting with corrupt intent as he sought to remain in power. still ahead, a new romantic comedy is now out on broadway. we'll hear all about "the cottage" next on "morning joe." cottage" next on "morning joe.

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♪♪ i like that a lot. you're flexible. you can do anything. as an actress, you've got to be able to. a hit show is making its return to broadway after 15 years. "the cottage" york. joining us now one of the show's stars, laura bell bundy. it's great to have you. i was going to have her read the prompter because having a problem with my contact lenses. >> i'm here for you, whatever you need. >> i can't see a thing. you said you could read prompter, i like it. >> i can. >> i can't wait to hear -- we love broadway and i want to hear about the cottage and how it's going. you haven't started yet, but i want to hear about your character. fist let's talk about the strike if we could. it's not affecting broadway, but these are your colleagues. so your thoughts on the strike, which is really historic in so many ways. >> it's disappointing that we had to come to this point, but i'm in full support of my union

and my peers and we're in uncharted territory when it comes to how this industry is evolving in a digital world, on streaming platforms and with ai. we need to get ahead of it. we're already behind in terms of the contract that we currently have to support working actors. and we've -- we see the problems. i've experienced those things in terms of reduced residuals and pay, you know, when we're working for streaming services. but we have to get ahead of it. we have to renegotiate, and we need a fair deal. >> yeah, and it's happening now. yeah. and you pointed out on the break just sort of as we transition to the broadway show, ai cannot replicate one thing. >> no, ai can't be us on stage, and we are a different union. we're the actors equity association on broadway, so we're trying to keep the flame lit of the entertainment

industry, so now is the time to come and see broadway. >> tell us about "the cottage." it's this 1923 british romp. it is a hilarious comedy behind closed doors. it is inspired by the nole coward comedies. it's very silly, but it is also about these people who are exploring life, love, sex, marriage, and all of the complications therein, so it's -- it has a little bit of a farce energy to it, but it's fun. it's silly, it's a night of entertainment. you get to come to the theater in this time where, you know, everything is complicated in the world. >> yes. >> it's such a nice relief and release to come to the theater, not have to think and laugh for two hours. >> joe has a question for you. joe. >> yes. so i understand jason alexander, this is his directorial debut.

how horrible of a director -- like does he go around scream like george costanza? i want to know what a kind of tyrant he is when he's got all the power? >> not a tyrant at all. in fact, a very emotionally intelligent human being. jason is a comedic genius. so having a comedic genius guide this process and be our objective eyes when we're on stage to say, hey, we could tighten this bit, we could make this work. that's been an honor, and it's been a wonderful experience. so i'm so excited for him getting his directorial debut. he deserves it, and this show is very funny, and he's done a great job. and the writer, sandy ruston is absolutely brilliant, and there's a bit of a feminist

twist to this. >> i like it. all right. >> so it's nice. >> jen. >> so we were also talking in the break, people are just sort of overwhelmed with ai, disinformation, we don't know what to believe, the power of broadway now, and you talked about, you know, because i want to see real people and real action with real emotion on their faces that's unique to them and telling a story, and the twists that you all have about women's empowerment in this play, but you talked about -- you said there's six cast members and the audience is the seventh cast member. talk about that and the impact that the audience has, you know, they're part of the play. >> yes, i mean, i think now in this time, especially in this post-covid time. we are craving human connection. we are craving the experience of live entertainment. i know i am. i don't want to go to another zoom event. i want to go to a live event, right? >> yeah. >> so we get to have this beautiful relationship with an audience that comes in and plays

with us for two hours. they are the seventh cast member of this show. they tell us where the energy dips, they tell us when they're with us, and we get to go on that ride together, and every performance is different. even though we're doing the same play all the time, there's something different going on or a mishap, and the audience gets to experience that. i think it's a beautiful exchange of love, the experience with an audience, and nothing is better for me, but that's -- that's what, you know, live theater can provide a person. >> it feels risky, too. >> it is risky. it's terrifying. anything can happen. >> what if the audience doesn't like play well or something? >> well, they sometimes don't. >> really? >> wednesday matinee's aren't always great, but you know, you kind of adjust. you kind of feel when they're with you and when they're not, and you make adjustments. it's amazing just the slightest thing. >> oh, my god.

>> real people making a difference. >> you can catch "the cottage" on broadway at the hayes theater. i have to tell you something about jason alexander, i cannot say it on television. >> that sounds scandalous. >> laura bell bunty, thank you very much. >> joe, you'll be happy to know that that does it for us this morning. lindsey reiser picks up the coverage after a short break. hok i was stuck. unresolved depression symptoms were in my way. i needed more from my antidepressant. vraylar helped give it a lift. adding vraylar to an antidepressant... ...is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms... ...better than an antidepressant alone. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. report fever, stiff muscles, or confusion,

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right now on "ana cabrera reports," grinding to a halt, something we haven't seen since 1960 when marilyn monroe was still in films, and spartacus was in theaters across america, both hollywood actors and writers are on strike. the leader of the actor's union fran drescher bet known as the nanny channelling the anger of her members. >> so the jig is up amptb.