so, special counsel jack smith has ten business days left if he wants to beat fulton county district attorney fani willis to an indictment. we have talked a little bit about that. dea willis has indicated that at some point between july 31st and august 15th she may bring charges against donald trump for his attempts to overturn the results of the 2020 election in georgia. and mr. smith, whose federal indictment could over lap significantly with da willis's state indictment, well he likely wants his federal case to go first. at least one of the two grand juries and that da willis has empanel down in fulton county

has already started its work as of this week. and either one of those grand juries could be asked to indict trump. but while we are waiting for a potential charging decisions here, it turns out that we should still be keeping our eyes on florida, and not just mar-a-lago. the new york times is reporting tonight that prosecutors have asked questions about boxes of documents being moved, not only at mar-a-lago, but also at other trump's own properties in florida, including the trump national doral golf club, which is near miami, and the trump national golf club in jupiter, also in florida. that is according to a person familiar with the matter. that would seem to be some real news here, as far as the special counsel's classified documents investigation is concerned. it means that it might not just be the storage rooms, and the bathrooms and a at mar-a-lago, with all the boxes of wrongfully retained government documents. there might be more stuff

squirrels away at doral and you put, or at least prosecutors are asking about that, which is, wow. jack smith and his team are on this. now, we had an inkling that there might be more to the special counsel's probe down in florida, because late last month the new york times, also, again, reported that jack smith's federal grand jury in miami was still investigating. that was three weeks after trump had already been indicted on 37 federal criminal counts for his alleged mishandling of classified documents. three weeks after that indictment the times reported that not only was that grand jury still investigating, but that they had issued multiple subpoenas to a handful of people connected to the inquiry. and then just yesterday in a legal filing about the existing mar-a-lago charges, smith team wrote explicitly that they had interviewed witnesses as recently as june 23rd, which was, by my, watch last month. just a few weeks after they

filed the first indictment against trump and his coconspirator, walt nauta. so, what about the classified documents case is still jacks mitt still investigating? and who might be at risk of being charged now, or charged again? as you contemplate that, remember this reporting we got late last month from the independent. the independent reported that jack smith's team has made preparations to bring what is known as a superseding indictment, or a second set of charges, against an already indicted defendant. essentially that smith has made preparations to bring even more charges against donald trump in the state of florida. so, it is now a live question as to whether trump's golf club that doral and jupiter, whether those places figure into any of that, whether what went down at those clubs might be part of a superseding indictment. joining me now is lisa rubin, msnbc legal analyst, and our show's secret weapon -- not that secret anymore,

because it's so obvious how really you are when it comes to understanding all the trump leak news. lisa, my eyes popped out of my head when i read the words golf clubs, dirrell, and you put her. am i wrong to think that this is a significant new reporting? >> no, not at all. my eyes do the same. we were not together when -- >> we were not at the -- assessment, now. >> but one of the things that i think is so interesting about this are, doral and jupiter are not places that trump is known to have residences. so, when the department of justice had earlier said to trump's lawyers, we think that you are still hiding some documents from us, and you need to do more complete searches, those searches were eventually done. but they were done of residences. they were down at trump tower and they were done at bedminster. doral is not a place we understand as a place that president trump spends a lot of nights. he did, however, according to the news reports, sleep there the night before his miami

arraignment. >> wow. >> jupiter, on the other, hand is about 20 miles from palm beach. it's where his son, don't trump junior, and now lives. and what i think might be happening here, is they are both easy places to get to from palm beach, a short drive. so, if he were going to want to move certain documents around, not only would you move them within the residents, you would move them to places outside new universal residences. right? >> in the indictment, we heard -- it is written in black and white that there were some documents moved to bedminster by walt nada nauta -- and the open question has been, is the doj going to charge in bedminster? is bedminster the next place where we are going to see an indictment? is at that with a superseding indictment might be about? is it in the world of possibility that the superseding indictment could actually be something down in florida at doral or jupiter? >> it could. be it could also be wise in

testimony or interviews that people and gave within florida about events far outside florida. so, imagine, if you will, that in interviews, or, again, a grand jury testimony folks, at no, i never moved a box from mar-a-lago to doral. no, i had nothing to do with the movement of boxes to jupiter. no, i had no reason to believe that boxes were moved to bedminster. all of those things that the og doj can prove otherwise could be the basis of false statement charges. there's already one fall statement charges against the existing indictment walt nauta in. there could be more to come. >> the other reason i want to talk about doral's, because, if you are a golf fan, then you know that the saudi golf organization liv golf is hosting a big tournament that doral. and i believe that one of these doral tournaments from liv golf, the saudi-backed professional golf adventure, took place in the fall of 2022, which is in and around the timeframe that trump -- that mar-a-lago is being, searched documents are being moved. am i wrong to be curious about

-- we know, also -- sorry, a key point here. the new york times reported earlier this year that one of the previously unreported subpoenas to the trump organization sought records pertaining to mr. trump's dealings with the saudi-backed professional golf venture known as liv golf, which is holding tournaments -- trump's golf resorts. so, prosecutors are interested in the relationship between trump and the saudi-backed golf organization -- there may be documents at doral, and the saudi back of organization is having events at doral. i am connecting dots. should i not be? >> it's not clear at this point. one thing that i think is clear, though, is that the president's properties are's historically insecure. we know from history that mar-a-lago has been infiltrated by lots of people, everyone from normal club members to folks as randomly having dinner, to folks who have been caught on the property with no business there at all. certainly, if classified documents are hanging out on a property where there who sting a public golf tournament, let

alone when that is backed by the saudi public investment fund -- >> yeah, that would be a red flag -- something we would want to follow up on. fair enough. we had this breaking news happened literally an hour and a half ago. the other breaking news today was the reporting initially, from abc -- which was first to report that the doj sent a target letter to a trump staffer down at mar-a-lago about his handling of security footage, down at the beach club -- can you talk to me about what a target letter signifies? and what conclusions you are drawing from this? >> a target letter is as close to a warning or indicator as it gets before an indictment that your client is, in fact, very much within the process crosshairs have doj, and is likely to be indicted. it usually goes to the person's counsel. it also serves as a warning, hey, if you've got to target letter, you can voluntarily come in. but we are letting you know

that you are a target, so that if we make an invitation to you, you don't come in and give self incriminating testimony, right? that's really one of the purposes of a target letter. i think we now know that this person who isn't named in the abc reports, but is represented by walt nauta's counsel, stanley woodward, is a person likely to be indicted. and that makes sense for this reason. when the department of does additional interviews after an indictment, it can't be in support of the existing charges. that is a big no no. it has to be in support of either superseding charges or another indictment. so, to the extent that the department is saying, yesterday, hey, trump and walt nauta, we are about to turn over transcripts of interviews between mid may and mid june, that is in service of something -- that we already know about. >> interesting. i personally -- i mean, as i said many times, i did not go to law school. but it did not occur to me that jack smith -- i mean, we knew he was still investigating. we knew there was still

subpoenaing people. but the fact that he is still looking at, focused on this sort of wheels in the machine, the cogs in the machine, the lower level staffers who were party to, allegedly, trump's plot to hide these classified documents, is interesting to me and a testament to the special counsel's tenacity in all this, given the fact that they have already indicted the president and his coconspirator walt nauta, and they got a big january 6th indictment that may be coming down the pike in, oh, the next ten business days. >> yeah. >> do you find that evidence of anything remarkably aggressive in the doj's wheel house? >> i think it is different than the way that doj typically conduct business. oftentimes, the doj will either indict or seek a plea deal first against lower level offenders, and in an attempt to flip those people -- >> yeah -- >> and then they will bring charges against the pink king pin. here, doj seems to be adopting an opposite approach. we are going to -- almost open our come mono and show you through this very

detailed speaking indictment all the things we know. we are going to show you what we know from people's tax. we are going to show you what we know from surveillance footage. we are going to show you what we know from testimony. it is really an impressive compendium of their investigation. then, they go out and say things like this target letter. that indicates someone, there is something for me to be scared about. now is the opportunity for me to flip. that also might be an indication of how they are going to go about their generous -- >> well, that was my next question, is, does that give you a sense of the roadmap, that they go for trump -- they're actually starting at the top of the pyramid and go their way down. because we know that the special counsel's office has been talking to secretaries of state across the country. that was breaking news this morning. do you think that they are going to be pursuing their targets in the same way, which is to say, donald trump, in the next ten days? but then the investigation into january six continues with potential indictment through the fall? >> you know, i won't be as confident to say the next ten days. but i do think the way that they have gone about this could be a signal of what they are going to do when we do see a

january 6th indictment and i am increasingly confident that we will see -- >> okay. i mean, our secret weapon, not our secret weapon. america's favorite weapon when it comes to -- naturally weapon. just mind, brain trust. thank you for your time. >> thanks for having me. >> we are so lucky to have. you and there are even more legal developments tonight, like -- trump prosecutor -- actions in 2020. plus, the reverberations for a controversial supreme court decision, a big new front that just opened up in the fight for equality. that is coming up. tide is busting laundry's biggest myth... that cold water can't clean. cold water, on those stains? ♪♪ cold water can't clean tough stains? i'd say that myth is busted. turn to cold, with tide.

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what are you working on? a bomb. it's happening, isn't it? this is the most important thing to every happen

in the history of the world! >> back in march, before twice indicted former president had any criminal charges filed against, him donald trump tried to put an end to the investigation into his possible attempts to subvert the 2020 election down in georgia. trump's lawyers moved to disqualify fulton county da fani willis. they argued to the fulton county superior court that the special grand jury investigation was, quote, confusing, flawed and, at times blatantly unconstitutional. and since then, little has happened. for about three months, there has not been a ruling. and now we are just over two weeks away from the start of the time period that dea da

willis laid out. highlighted here are the day she could possibly file a criminal indictment against donald trump. and, as a result, trump's team is acting with, shall we say, greater urgency. today, trump's lawyers filed petitions into georgia courts, that's a in fulton county superior court they filed a petition in last march, and the georgia supreme court, which is the states highest court. and the point of these petitions was to ask for the same faith again, who shut down fani willis's investigation. team trump argues that her probe was unconstitutional, and causes, quote, injuries to trump as he seeks his party's nomination for the presidency. trump also wants to forbid the use of any evidence or testimony from willis's investigation, arguing that many of the warrants that led to the testimony of over 75 witnesses were obtained illegally. his legal team wants to direct the, quote, quashal of the special grand jury's report and -- a quashal. and of course, trump has asked the court for a second time to disqualify da fani willis herself out right. joining me now to hopefully

answer many of these questions is someone with a lot of experience as a prosecutor in georgia, former u.s. attorney for the middle district of georgia, michael moore. michael, thanks for being here. what is going on with judgments bernie? ease the judge that is overseeing this case. he got the first petition in march and not much appears to have happened. is there any merit to the idea that -- sitting on? this >> i'm glad to be with you. i don't know if there's a lot of merit that he is just holding it. i think when you compare what the -- special purpose grand jury, how quickly moved on issues related to bringing subpoenas and evidence might come in and that type of thing, witness attendants, that it is a little bit unusual for him to sit on the motion for this long. and it may -- it may -- give the supreme court a basis to direct him to rule, so that they can actually have a pending matter before, before that.

right now it is sort of an imaginary case if you will. because there is no charge defendant. there is no indictment to get rid. from there is no evidentiary hearings -- which ruling -- defendant is asking to be reversed. it is simply a potential defendant coming in saying, hey, if you let this go forward, it will cause me harm. and so it is an unusual posture for the supreme court to take these kind of faces up. there are some constitutional questions that they raise in their motion. i think they are probably appropriately raised, at least. but i really think what you are seeing is an effort to make a very clear and very thorough record of proceedings in the courts below. because this case is going to wind its way through a rear appellate court system between here and washington d. c.. and so that is really what i think the purpose of the motion is. >> do you think one of the

reasons that the judge has not ruled on it is because it might be, i don't know, poppycock? >> it very well could be. but that ought to be a pretty easy to deny -- the motion -- as opposed to letting something sit. and judges, they don't like to let things linger. and they usually are pretty good about making sure that lawyers comply with -- getting -- done. so, i think, probably, the -- indictments coming. he figures that is really going to be the start of the horse race. and so he just had -- and, again i don't think that is going to serve as a basis for the supreme court to do something like throughout this whole case. but i think it is one more thing that the defense counsel and defendant can raise to try and make some hay, race and money from their supporters, and continue to gin up their base as they are moving forward into what looks like a protracted litigation in the criminal courts. >> you know -- >> -- >> the essence of trump's political strategy is in this

filing. he -- his legal team says that fani willis should be disqualified for one specific thing. and i will read from the filing. the district attorney was laboring under an impermissible and actual conflict of interest. hosting and headlining a fund-raiser for the political opponent of one of her investigations targets. that is fani willis attending a fund-raiser for a man named charlie bailey, who -- a democrat -- who ran against one of the republican fake electors in the state of georgia. they are arguing that that is disqualifying. does that seem disqualifying to you? >> it is not disqualified. and judge mcburney made short work of that when he said, look, i'm not going to let you do that with that particular target, if we will. we don't even have targets in the states system. but with that individual, i am not going to -- you know, he's not going to be included in this process. so, that is the way the court

dealt with that. that is not going to permeate this whole case. i do think, if they want to raise questions about whether or not there have been public statements made, and whether there have been public questions that may have affected a jury pool, and statements that have come out like that, those are fine to raise if they want to raise them. and good defense lawyers are going to raise those kinds of objections and motions to get them on the record, so that if there is, at some, point a conviction, there will be grounds for appeal. but that issue, as far as this idea of what happened during the investigation of some of the purported fake electors is, i think that's probably water while under the bridge. >> can i ask you about the general kind of proclivities of the georgia state supreme court? because, i think, as you very rightly point out, this is going to make its way through the court system, between georgia and washington. but just in the state of georgia, we know there are nine georgia state supreme court justices.

eight of them were pointed by republican state governors. what is the likelihood that state supreme court is sympathetic, broadly, to trump's pleas, as he continues to petition the court for various rulings? >> i think it is unlikely that they -- let me, say i know the justices, and a lot of them are friends. so, i just don't believe they are going to get a great reception, not because i know anything about leanings one way or another. i just believe that these are serious people, occupying a position of trust on the supreme court. and they are going to look at the case and they are going to look at the facts and look at the law, and make a decision based on that and not some fondness for one political candidate or another. and so, if trump's team has a hope of succeeding, that i think they have got to be serious about some of the filings they make, and some of their objections that they, make and make those things that they think they can, through well founded reasons, to raise some challenge. and, again, i think we will see

these kind of motions down the road. i think this is just sort of a shot that the defense team felt like they needed to take. and good lawyers -- i'm not surprised that they did something like this, to protect their clients position. but i don't think the supreme court is going to have the appetite yet to take it up. remember, this very well may be a case that moves into the federal. court we are talking about conduct, and -- what we believe the district attorney may charge would have been conduct that trump has alleged to have been committed while he was a sitting president of the united states. if you think about the enormity of, that and what it, means it hasn't happened before. and so this is going to be a case of first impression both in the supreme court here, and as it winds its way. up and there are some federal statutes to talk about cases that can be moved from a state court to a federal court. if somebody is participating as a federal executive and in their office and that kind of thing, and i'm sure the defense team has looked at those motions and will make a

decision as to whether or not they will make some type of motion to transfer their -- but none of us this is going to win its way through the federal court system because it's ultimately, i believe, going to go to the supreme court, which is the last -- in the land. >> what a novel legal things happening here, including the use of the word quashal, which i had not heard until today. you are welcome, america. michael moore, former u.s. attorney for the middle district of georgia. michael, it's always great to see you. thanks for your expertise tonight. >> i'm glad to be with, you alex. thank you. >> when we come back, what happens when chris christie meets donald trump in the octagon. do you know what the octagon is? stay tuned. chris christie has some interesting things to say. plus, clarence thomas did even more damage than you might have imagined when he -- and that is just ahead. hey bud. wow. what's all this? hawaii was too expensive so i brought it here. you know with priceline you could actually take that trip

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the constitutional right to an abortion last year, the headlines were stark. states were now free to ban abortion and the whole country was about to undergo a seismic shift in terms of basic freedoms. but there were additional headlines around that time that were worth paying attention to, because the fallout from that supreme court decision did not stop with abortion. here is the nbc news headline from that time. justice clarence thomas once a supreme court to overturn a landmark ruling that legalized

contraception and the same-sex marriage. in his concurring opinion, in which he voted to strike down roe, justice thomas also -- that the court should not stop there. he wrote, in future cases, we should we consider all of the court substantive due process precedents, including the case that legalized gay marriage. because any such due process decision is demonstrably erroneous, and we have a duty to correct the error established in that precedent. justice thomas was essentially arguing, and that supreme court decision, that legalized gay marriage was wrongly decided, and encouraged someone to bring a new legal challenge to the court, when that would give the court the opportunity to correct the perceived error, and allow states to dismantle marriage equality. and it did not take long for someone to start going down that road. late last month, the supreme court ruled in favor of a colorado web designer who had

refused to design wedding websites for couples who are gay. now, even though the law requires her and her business to serve everyone equally, she argued that the law was forcing her to advance a message she does not believe in. and the conservatives on the supreme court agreed with her. they ruled that this woman had the right to discriminate against same-sex couples solely based on their sexual orientation. and already, it is case -- the one with the web designer -- is paving the way for others who challenge not just the right for gay couples to hire a web designer, but exactly what clarence thomas encouraged last year, who challenged whether gay couples can get married at all. in 2019, a justice of the piece from waco, in texas, was given a public warning after she refused to perform gay marriages. after receiving that warning, she sued the state panel that sanctions are, saying they violated the free exercise of her religion. that case has been making its way through the courts every since. and now, given the recent

ruling from this conservative supreme court, this judge seems to have a stronger legal leg to stand on then she did when she first brought this case back in 2019. the justice of the peace has filed a new brief to try and bolster her case in which she specifically cites the most recent supreme court ruling about the colorado web designer. interweave, she argues that the same rules the court apply to this web designer should apply to her, a justice of the peace. if the web designer is allowed to refuse web design service to the gay couples, then she too should be allowed to refuse gay marriages. and this justice of the peace is clearly speaking directly to her audience. she says she fully expects this case to go all the way to the supreme court of texas. and we all know what court comes after that one. this is one to watch. joining us now is charles coleman, former brooklyn prosecutor and former current civil rights attorney. charles, thank you for making your view on alex wagner tonight on this very distressing series of legal events. first, your reaction to this justice of the peace and her

filing. she clearly sees an opportunity based on the ruling in dobbs. >> sure. >> is she right to see an opportunity? >> she's not right, but she is not surprising in this way. after that decision came out, in 303 creative, and the supreme court, i predicted we would see a number of different challenges across jurisdictions, because the way the ruling was issued was very vague and technically, harry and nuanced. and as far as i am concerned, reading that, and making the comparison is apples to automobiles. you are talking about someone who is a state employee. she is a government employee. so, she is not a -- >> she is not a web designer. >> -- correct, like the web designer. number one, that's important to understand. so, the laws that govern that there are very, very different. and then you are also talking

about a first amendment analysis in a 303 case versus a state law in texas that you are trying to apply, to basically expand out far beyond anything the united states supreme court actually said. so, in terms of the pathway that she has legally to get where she wants to go, 303 creative does not apply in those cases are not relevant in that way. in terms of principle, even that is misinterpreted in terms of what 303 creative actually says. but alex this is not going to be the -- challenge around the supreme court ruling. >> yeah. and i totally agree with you. if only because clarence thomas has had, effectively, explicitly, hey, anybody want to dismantle gay marriage? bring a case to, me bring a case to me. and there have been so many instances where it looked like the plaintiffs did not have standing, or you could not imagine that the supreme court would actually take this up, and yet they do. because the supreme court -- at least a conservatives on the court -- seem dead set on furthering a specific agenda. do you think there is a chance that clarence thomas looks at this case and says, well, maybe we can get it up here? >> i don't necessarily know that it matters whether it is this. case the idea, as you've already said -- >> let's take a broad case --

>> -- he's made the indication. he's far the very ward loud warning shots -- across the country is that it emboldens them. these sorts of decisions, alex, occur over the course of a lifetime, as we saw with dobbs, and how dobbs dismantled women's reproductive rights in america. there were subtle victories here and they are in, small cases, that you basically stick together to create a larger legal theory that you then find the perfect case to put before the court. you are not always going to win those cases. look at affirmative action. that took so many losses before they finally got the win that they wanted. but what this invitation from justice thomas, what he's said is, hey, get them ready, we will take a look, and we may be able to start moving along the strategy that you want. >> and it's reminiscent of what happened in abortion. and by the way, jonathan mitchell, the former texas solicitor general, he is the sort of architect of the 2021 texas bounty hunter law that encourage private citizens to sue people involved in

abortions. that was not ultimately the case that the supreme court took up to dismantle roe. but it was made -- it was part of this groundswell, to your point, of anti-abortion cases that were sort of waiting their way through the courts. he is also the guy that is involved in this game marriage lawsuit down in texas. and i guess, to your earlier point -- i mean, he is one of those footsoldiers that helps sort of drawn up the field army, if you will, to get this thing up into the highest court in the land. >> so, you have this agenda that is set forth, in large part, by christian nationalists. and they are pushing it. and this is the arena in which they have different people -- the legal arena -- the courts that they are looking to enact certain laws. and in for certain decisions by the court that are going to reinforce what it is that they are trying to do with their agenda. and he is taking every element from different aspects and trying to move it further and further and further. and my thoughts, when the 303 creative ruling came down was, people are going to continue to push these boundaries. it just so happens that he is doing this in texas.

but this is going to happen throughout the country without with respect to people seeing how far they can go with respect to denying services and opportunities to same-sex couples, or anything else that they are going to claim is in conflict with their religious beliefs. >> and wait till we see what happens in around affirmative action and the after effects of that. yikes. charles coleman, thank you for this time on this friday night. appreciate. it still to come this evening, while most of the republican presidential hopefuls are afraid of being within the same zip code as a down trump insult, chris christie has decided to enter the octagon. do you know the octagon is? stay tuned. imagine you're doing something you love. rsv could cut it short. ♪ rsv is a contagious virus that usually causes mild symptoms but can cause more severe infections that may lead to hospitalizations...

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presidential debate is less than six weeks away. donald trump remains at least 30 percentage points ahead of anyone else in the field. but most of the other candidates do not seem too eager to do all that much about it. yesterday elite league strategy memo from ron desantis's campaign explains how the governor has to handle donald trump. that campaign will make a contrast between joe biden and ron desantis clear. but we won't avoid trump's failings when. our strategy? question asked,, question answered, then on to how we beat joe biden. question asked? question answered. like the spelling bee. desantis's plan is to only criticize donald trump when

specifically asked about donald trump, and then to basically avoid the topic for the rest of, i don't know, the entire primary season? it certainly is one strategy. and yet it seems downright aggressive when you look at how everyone else has been handling this. >> -- nomination -- knockout donald trump. how are you going to do that? >> everyone watching the show tonight can go to vote tim scott dot com, and learn more about who i am. >> are you a better human being than donald trump? >> i think we all have intrinsic value in the eyes of god. >> you have got some people who are mad that i don't love trump -- you know, 100% of the time. i don't love my husband 100% of the time. >> what do you make of -- former running mates -- >> -- served -- alongside him for four years. and he's entitled to his opinion, for my part. >> and then there is the strategy of former new jersey governor chris christie.

>> if you and trump got in the ring, he loves ufc and stuff like that. what if you got in the octagon, you and him, who would win? >> -- 78 years old. i would kick his ads ass. -- chris christie, for the record, a 60 years old. >> joining us now is mark leibovich, author of thank you for your servitude, down trump 's washington and the price of submission. mark, no better person to talk to hear about -- the pudding fingers at that on trump took out against ron desantis, which basically suggest that the governor is a gross person who eats putting with his fingers. trump has no problem attacking people personally and viscerally. why is chris christie the only person in this race who seems to have a strategy to go after donald trump? >> chris christie does not have much else to lose and i do think it is interesting that chris christie is now sort of the latest kind of tout his own physical prowess and

conditioning and would like to get in the ring with i'll drop. i think what he was probably trying to do was trigger trump into responding to him and maybe making a fat joke and they can go back and forth and do this. it just seems kind of like a food fight at this point to try to bring this back to the pudding imagery. and look, it doesn't -- i mean, the math doesn't add up for people who expect that donald trump is just going to go away. tim scott, nikki haley, ron desantis, what have. you in desantis's case, asked and answered. he's not even taking a lot of questions at this. point -- i think if there's a plan b that they need to go to a pretty quickly. >> i want to talk about desantis, because this leaked memo to nbc news had the exclusive first reporting on, also notes where the desantis team thinks trump is vulnerable. and i will read the portion of. that soft trump voters and america first conservatives do not look kindly on trump's record on guns, the deficit and spending, transgender-ism, and

his families cozy relationship with the saudi royal family. on its face, i sort of understand how the polling might reflect that. but all of those topics seem so, just distressingly decide the point when it comes to the voters and their relationship with donald trump. do you see merit in that assessment? >> yes. but only if ron desantis actually talks about. it. donald trump is absolutely vulnerable. he has a hole -- that democrats and republicans, i think, could have a field day running against, and any number of vulnerabilities that you could point to. but desantis mentions the saudi royal family. and as he mentioned that once? no, of course not. trump -- i mean, i think, one thing that trump is vulnerable on is his own record as president, to conservatives. the whole idea that he delivered for them is, frankly, kind of just -- it's disingenuous, because number one, he did not build the wall, and kristie is really the only one who has brought that up. infrastructure did not get

until joe biden got into the office. he didn't drain the swamp. he didn't balance the budget. go down the list. but, again, it's sort of a verboten topic. it's like, i will disagree with don trump on a number of things, but i'm going to focus on -- tim scott route today, we all have virtue in god's eyes. so, i'm not sure that's going to do. it >> i guess -- i think it's interesting that you think, on the record, that there is -- that there are points to the mind, as it were, if you are an appointment of donald trump. because what seems apparent to me, from the outside, is the emotional relationship between his supporters, to the degree that they will deny that up is up and down is down. right? you can tell voters, he didn't do that much for the economy. and they will say, yes, he did. you can tell voters, well, mexico didn't pay for the wall.

and it's almost as if the record does not register, that the emotional connection is so deep and so profound that nothing can break it. and i wonder if that is at the root of these republicans not even bothering to try to go after trump on the record. >> i think. so clearly, they have a reality distortion feel that they are operating against. but if you keep talking since two enough trump voters, eventually, something is going to get through. and the other part of the record that people really talk about he just frankly, his won lost record on losing reelection to joe biden, losing the senate, losing the house, which is something that no incumbent president has done in 100 years. so, i mean, he has quite a record. and, you know, the republican party has lost quite a bit on his watch. so, look, the record can cut any number of ways. but it does not get you anywhere if you don't talk about it. >> i have to ask you, mark, about the ways in which -- what do we call it? lower card candidates are trying to get into the first debate of the season -- we know they have to meet a certain polling number. but they also have to get 40,000 individual donations. and at this point, the dog burgum's of the race, the vivek ramaswamy's of the race are literally paying people off --

doug burgum offering 20-dollar gift cards to -- vivek ramaswamy is offering a 10% commission to anyone who brings in donations. this level of desperation is unique is it not? >> it is, but can you imagine having a doug burgum gift card? what would you buy with it? -- >> -- i think it's a visa cash card, but i think. i'm not sure. it's not like the bank of doug burgum. >> well, okay. if i had when i could grab a burger on the way home. the idea here is, look, we have so much money and we are so desperate we might as well just payoff voters and if people -- great. i guess watching presidential -- what presidential candidates could be a good way to get gift cards at this point. but look, it just shows you just how high or how low the bar is at this point. >> mark leibovich, it's always good to see you, buddy. thank you for your time on this friday night. >> thanks, alex. -- >> still to come this evening, whatever you may have heard

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there were a lot of conspiracy theories around the 2020 election, about widespread fraud favoring democrats. 2000 meals stuffing ballot boxes. human mules. not, like, donkeys. foreign actors using rig

dominion voting machines to secretly flip votes to. biden democratic election workers putting out secret suitcases full of ballots late at night. and while none of those things actually, happened a few rare instances of actual, prosecutable voter fraud did occur, and lots of them had something in common. i'm going to let you guess what that was. for example, for residents of a florida retirement community called the villages pleaded guilty to felony charges of voter fraud, each admitting to casting more than one ballot in the 2020 election. and three of the four felons from that very trump friendly community were registered republicans. the fourth was not affiliated with any party. then there was the pennsylvania man who cast an absentee ballot for trump using a ballot meant for his mother, who had died before she could vote. it was the republican party official from ohio who cast a ballot on behalf of his dead father. it was a colorado man who pleaded guilty to voting for trump using a ballot in the name of his wife, who had disappeared earlier that year and is presumed dead. he said he thought trump could use the vote. there was the nevada man whose claim that someone had cast a ballot in the name of his dead

wife were relentlessly promoted by the states republican party as proof of rampant voter fraud, until the nevada guy admitted that he was the one who actually did it. and now we have a new example from the state of ohio. a registered republican, who has made campaign donations to donald trump is awaiting his fate after being tried for voter fraud, for voting twice twice. in 2020 the defendant allegedly voted in person in ohio and then cast the second in-person ballot on election day in florida, where he owns property. then in 2022, he allegedly voted twice again, at a trial this week the defendant, who pleaded not guilty, reportedly did not testify or provide any witnesses, but the cleveland plain dealer coach's lawyer is saying, mistakes do happen. accidents do happen. the judge who heard that case will rule on it next month, and decide whether he joins the ranks of fellow members of the

election integrity party who committed voter fraud. that is our show for this week. now it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell, with ali velshi in for lawrence o'donnell. good evening, ali. >> this takes happen, accidents happen. >> four times, you know, it happens. >> have a great weekend. >> you do. >> see next week, thanks, alex. tonight, there is new reporting by special prosecutor jack smith about the criminal investigation into the attack on the capitol to overturn the 2020 election results to keep thomas romp in power. today, we learned that the secretary of state's input -- and pennsylvania happy interviewed by federal prosecutors. we also know now that jared thompson testified to the grand jury. look, we can fight developments in the federal probe every day, and we have our lawyers paul butler joining us later in the

yard talk about these elements. plus, donald trump's desperate legal filing through georgia today and the possibility of a new person being charged any classified documents case. >> i want to start looking at the bigger picture and ask why we absolutely need to hold everyone involved in this gargantuan anti-democratic effort to account. it's bad enough that it happened. but for a few good people doing the right thing at the right time, it could have succeeded. but this is not a past tense discussion. this crime against democracy remains in progress. donald trump is still lying about the election results. he is now attacking, on a daily and sometimes hourly basis, jack smith, prosecutors across the country, the men and women of the fbi, and the justice department. federal judges, the whole united states government, and the rule of law. and the republicans in congress who could have washed their hands of trump, after he lost, well, take kevin mccarthy, who, in the immediate aftermath of january 6th, laid the blame ua