probably don't know why republicans seem so preoccupied with questions about the fbi and the january six insurrection this week. we will decode it all ahead, then, it is a cultural touchstone. a remarkable award-winning debut novel and a target of black banners. angie thomas joins me later in the show to talk about her crucial work. the hate you give. velshi starts now. >> good morning, it's saturday july the 15th, i'm ali velshi. the future does not look so bright for donald trump. at the moment, he's facing a total of 71 felony counts stemming from a number of criminal charges related to the two cases for which he has so far been indicted. the manhattan district attorney's hush money payments probe and the special counsel jack smith's federal case involving the mishandling of classified documents. trump and his team have

noticeably been trying to find a defense in the latter case, in the times they've offered contradictory excuses to explain why it was the trump illegally retained government records, and seemingly obstructed federal authorities from retrieving this record for many months. if convicted in that case alone, it could produce a years-long prison sentence, and that is just one example of the legal peril the former president faces right now. and the classified documents investigation is in its early days. according to an abc news report this week, the special counsel's team recently informed a trump organization employee but they are a target in their investigation, which means that more indictments could be camille and the documents case. while trump cannot simply wish that away, there is one thing he can do to possibly evade accountability and even shut down the cases against him. all he has to do is become president again. and a new legal filing from trump's team this week signals that they want to give the former president every

opportunity to return to the white house in regain control of the executive branch, including the power to pardon himself. trump's legal team is seeking to indefinitely postpone the federal criminal trial in the classified documents case, citing trump's 2024 presidential campaign and possible matchup against president biden as reasons for the trial should be delayed. he is also asking the georgia supreme court to shut down distributor knee fani willis's investigation into whether trump and his allies tried to overturn the 2020 election. in fact, in a filing yesterday in that case trump's legal team writes that allowing the georgia investigator to continue would cost quote, reputational harm to the petitioner as he seeks his party's nomination for the presidency of the united states via a flagrant disregard for in violation of his fundamental constitutional rights, end quote. i spoke last night with the

congresswoman jamie raskin about these increasingly desperate looking moves on the part of trump's team. listen to what he said. >> you can't prosecute him when he's president because he is president. you can prosecute him after his president, because he is running for president. and they argued, yeah, and you can't use the impeachment process because really, he should be tried they say, using the criminal statutes, but then you can never use the criminal statutes because he's always running for president, which for him, gives imperfect immunity and impunity. >> it is almost like donald trump would like to never be accountable to the justice system at all. for his part, or for its part, jack smith's team, which had previously proposed a december start date for the federal documents trial, submitted its own filing this week to oppose delaying the trial until after the 2024 election. quote, there is no basis in law or fact for proceeding in such

a indeterminate and open-ended fashion, and the defendants provide none, and quote. the start date for that trial will ultimately be decided by the presiding judge, aileen cannon. a trump nominee who's decisions in this matter will be under intense scrutiny. judge cannon is in a unenviable position. as a presiding judge in the first ever trial against a former american president who also happens to be a current presidential candidate, she has to deal with a number of legal considerations that no other judge has ever needed to confront before. in the eyes of the justice system, trump is presumed innocent until proven guilty, just like anyone else accused of a crime in this country, and judges have the responsibility of ensuring that everyone receives a fair hearing. at the same time, trump is no ordinary defendant. he has a long and complicated history with the legal system. he is known for filing dubious motions to cause delays in many of the literally thousands of lawsuits that he has been a party to over the years, and

there should be safeguards to ensure that he does not game the system, especially during a critical election. cially during it bears repeating that trump is a leading contender in the 2024 presidential race, and he's been using his campaign speeches to rail against the prosecutors working on the cases against him. six months before the primaries official began, trump remains the outright front runner for the gop nomination. police nearly 30 points ahead of his closest rival ron desantis in the latest poll from the economist and yougov. he also has many allies in congress who have already been working for months to discredit the very institutions that are trying to hold donald trump to account. the bottom line is that trump remains politically powerful even though he is not in office. it's a complicated and unprecedented situation for the american legal system, and it could still get a lot more complicated because we are facing the very real possibility that a presidential front runner will be hitting the campaign trail, while at the same time is on trial for

undermining the very democracy that he is trying to take control of again and possibly to destroy for good. when -- joining me to discuss this, pharma mcquade, and msnbc legal analyst, and kimberly atkins, store. senior columnist for the -- opinion at an msnbc legal analyst -- boy, having trouble today, saturday morning, both really smart people to talk about the law and they are both amazing members of the sisters in law podcast. good morning to both of you, thank you for being with us. kimberly, let me start with something that you wrote on june 21st. you said, we already knew the concept of the rule of law is completely lost by trump. not a adam of his being, and evidence of a desire to serve the public. instead, everything he does, including running for president again appears -- ego, grievance, greed, soft

protection and revenge. the latter directed his perceived enemies with the current hairless taught by the justice system this ought to hold him accountable. that of course is the thesis that we just laid out. there are two important issues here. barbara and i spent a long time talking about the revenge part of things, the weaponization of the government against trump's perceived critics. but this protection racket is something worth examining. i think jamie raskin put it very clearly last night. amongst trump supporters, it's no valid point at which you could possibly attempt to hold them to account, because he is either president or he's running for president or he will be president again. >> that is exactly right. it seems that he is trying to carve out a new protection. we already know that the justice department has a policy of not pursuing criminal action against a sitting president. he wants to extend that to cover anybody who might be president, who is president, who perhaps was president. and you can establish ex

presidents, anything he can to avoid accountability at this stage while, at the same time, using the investigation as political fuel to try to rev up his supporters to say, look, i am being attacked. there after me because they're after you. he is trying to use this as both a shield and a sword in a way that is really remarkable and unprecedented. >> i think that they are after me because they are after you, barbara, is an interesting theme. it is manifested overtime. it started as dumb trump as seeking justice, donald trump as your adventure. seeking your retribution. and now, i don't know how he gets people to believe this, but he somehow is the person who is standing between the government coming after average americans and them. >> well he is engaged in some time tested tactics that have been used by authoritarians. one of them is something known as the either or fallacy and that is that there are only two

sides in the whole world, and you're either with us or against us. and then to paint your opponent as so awful that no one could possibly want to align themselves with that, they become protective of the leader that they believe represents them. dethe other thing that authoritarians do is to portray everyone as corrupt. joe biden, hunter biden, they're all corrupt because then if everyone is corrupt, you might as well vote for the person who shares your values and will impose the policies that you see, and so this narrative that they, the enemy, are not just after you, because they want to impose your will on you, is a strategy used by mussolini and hitler and all of the dictators in history. he has dusted off the history books and is using it to great effect. >> kelly, i want to ask you about this concept, that trump's legal team put forward with respect to the georgia case, saying that it will damage his reputation at the time that he is running for president.

while we have agrees that this seems to be a protection racket that donald trump is building around himself how does the court have to think about that? how does the judge or the supreme in georgia, which is overwhelmingly republican, how did they think about that idea that either we pursue justice or we don't. he is presumed innocent until and unless proven guilty by a jury. but do we just stop the trial because it could help -- hurt his reputation? it does hurt his reputation to be subject to a criminal trial. >> but imagine ali, if that was a standard by which to avoid a criminal trial that it might hurt my reputation, i think it would be very difficult to try just about any defendant in the criminal system. that is not the standard. the standard is whether or not he can get a fair trial, and whether you can find a jury that would be able to put aside whatever they think about donald trump. certainly you will not find one who is never heard of him, but it can put aside whatever their personal feelings are, look at

the facts of the case, apply it to the law, and come to a verdict based on that. so long as the judge is confident that that can happen i don't see any way that a claim of reputational damage is going to be raised to the level of stopping a trial. >> barbara, i want to talk about the january six case for a little while. there are some reporting in the new york times that jared kushner and other people have spoken to the investigators in that case, and the argument in the article is that it would help jack smith's group to understand or to be able to prove, either in donald trump's own words, or from reliable witnesses under oath who were in the room, that donald trump knew he lost the election as opposed to thought he might have won the election. why is that distinction so important? >> well the crimes that are being considered by the special counsel are crimes of willful-ness, which means that you know what you are doing is

illegal. at the higher standards then existing and other kinds of laws. and so a jury would be pulled in the instructions of, because we cannot read another person's mind, you may draw regional inferences based on what the person said and what the person did. and so i would imagine that it would be important to the prosecutors to talk to everybody he was in his inner circle to find out what he said. whether it is good or bad for the case, because they want to lock that down. maybe there is some very good evidence that says, oh, i know i lost the election were going to pretend that i won. that would be the gold statement. but maybe he didn't say that. and if he said something that would be exonerating they want to know that to so that they don't prepare a case and have some other witness come and at the end of the day and say something that contradicts their theory of the case. so it's really important talk to all of those people in the inner circle. >> so kimberly, let's just get a little deeper into this. if you take a sydney powell or rudy giuliani, again, i don't know what was in their mind. i don't know whether they want to hang on to power and be important but knew that they lost the election, or truly believed that they won the

election, but jared kushner, unlike a lot of other people, jared kushner was central to the operation. he is reportedly told investigators that he was under the impression that donald trump felt that he had won the election. is that relevant? is jared kushner's impression relevant or distract smith need evidence? smith>> both. jack smith definitely needs evidence, but this can certainly serve as a piece to it. look, jared kushner wasn't donald trump's inner circle during the time leading up to january 6th and in the time after, and so in that, whatever conversations that were had as our pointed out, or other evidence that can go to whether or not donald trump actually knew that he lost the election or was really under some sort of from delusion would be important. i think it is also important to note that jared kushner himself has reportedly said that he

knew that donald trump had lost the election. i think that if it is clear that the people around donald trump knew that he lost and made that clear, then it makes it even harder for donald trump to claim that he wasn't aware that he did. and so we don't know exactly what the evidence is. the strength of it. but certainly, either way kushner is a key witness in this case. thanks to both of you for getting us started this morning. but remember craig, former united states attorney and msnbc league announced. kimberly atkins store is a senior columnist of the boston globe and msnbc political analyst. both women are co-host of the #sistersinlaw pod cast. i did that and much better than i did the beginning. things are improving. we are set for a good show. thanks to both of. you have a good day. coming up, the birth of a conspiracy theory. we are in a talk about why republicans are so preoccupied with discrediting the fbi, the doj, in the january six investigations. and the threat that poses to democracy. but facts don't lie,

republicans may be bashing bidenomics but it is working rather well. particularly in red states. plus, i will call to order this week's meeting of the velshi banned book club. on the agenda, angie tomasz's award winning novel, the hate you give. that is coming up right now on velshi. c otc just one pill a day blocks heartburn for a full 24 hours. for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn.

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received a piece of economic news for which it has been desperate for months! inflation, which has been crushing our economy in a years -long surge, has cooled significantly. in the month of june, prices rose only 3% compared to the year before, the smallest 12 month increase the country has seen since march of 2021. president joe biden was quick to take credit for this and other recent economic victory such as an increase in jobs and wages. there are many factors that could contribute to changes like this. if you ask the white house it

is so called, bidenomics, getting the job done. two weeks ago, how speaker kevin mccarthy denounced the strategy as a, quote, economic disaster that will cause decades high inflation, high gas prices, lower paychecks, and crippling uncertainty that leave americans worse off. but, for fact sake, the biden administration's policies have actually been tremendously beneficial. in fact, as timothy noah of the new republic pointed out this week, bidenomics tends to benefit americans in red states even more than those in blue states. let's see with the increases and personal income across the country. in north dakota, where biden lost to trump by 33 points in 2020, personal income during the first quarter this year rose 11% from the previous. that is according to the bureau of economic analysis. in nebraska, which biden lost by 19 points, personal income rose 11.1%. in south carolina, which biden

lost by roughly 12 points to trump, personal income rose 6.8%. all of these increases in personal income exceed the national average of 5.1%. north dakota and nebraska more than doubled that average. let's take a look at some blue states. california where biden won by 29 points personal income only grew by seven tenths of a percent. biden beat trump by 23 points in new york but personal income growth only went up 3.2%. in maryland where biden won by 33 points personal income there was 5%. bidenomics is not remotely a problem for gop. it looks like a success. of course, credit will never be given where credit is due. it is reminiscent of the weeks following the passage of president biden's infrastructure bill where lawmakers and red states foot sternly in the way of passing that bill. they showed up with bells on and those big ceremonial scissors to cut the big ceremonial ribbons when the projects got underway. >> we also passed once in a

generation investments in the nations roads, highways, bridges, railroads, ports, airports, water systems, high-speed internet. we got a little help from republicans. not a lot, but enough to get it passed. the truth is, there are a lot more republicans taking credit for that bell than who actually voted for. it i see them out there. now, we are gonna build this new bridge here. they are all for it. by the way, this new road. we're gonna have the internet -- i love it, man. they ain't got no shame. they don't have any shame. >> they ain't got no shame, indeed. as money started to roll out for infrastructure products, republicans got pat on the back even after voting against the funding that made the products possible. tim cotton and senator boozman announced nearly $15 million in grants of a state that read, quote, this funding will go to infrastructure projects that are critical to maintaining roads, trails, and railways in

arkansas. i am pleased senator boozman and i were able to secure the grants for these projects. and quote. no. both senators voted against biden's bill. alabama congressman robert aider whole renounced that the city of cortland will receive this grant for one point $6 million. i'm always happy to support this type of funding in congress that provides for the traditional infrastructure needs of our communities. and quote. while natalie. congressman aider hold voted against biden's bill. freshman alabama senator, tommy tuberville, said broadband is vital for the success of our rural communities and for our entire economy. great to see alabama received crucial funds to boost ongoing broadband efforts. and quote. to which president biden responded. see you at the groundbreaking. senator tuberville also voted against biden's bill. republicans vocally dragging

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it's time to wake up. because shingles could wake up in you. if you're over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist about shingles prevention. president biden is back home here in the united states after a momentous summit for nato, which he says is stronger than ever. that is partly because the defensive alliance is also bigger than ever. spurred by russia's brutal invasion of ukraine, finland and sweden, previously nonaligned nordic nations, have had a change of heart. both applied for membership. ukraine has also submitted its application. finland was accepted in april. has announced at this week's summit that sweet it is now set to be accepted, as well. maybe. in an unexpected in southern turnaround, turkey backed down from my heart block from sweden's admission. however, while turkish president erdogan publicly dropped his opposition, he now says that the turkish parliament also needs to take up the issue.

they will not do so until october. implying that turkey may want to squeeze more concessions before voting in favor. erdogan also isn't leaving empty-handed. the holdout garner turkey additional support for its longtime ambition to join the european union, as well as what appears to be renewed u.s. congressional support for the sale of f-16s to turkey which a large bipartisan group of lawmakers has vowed to block. after ukraine's bid to join nato, biden and other leaders say they are in support of it, but not right now. admitting ukraine into nato, while it is in the middle of a war, would mean that the united states and the rest of nato would automatically be at war with russia. joining me now is admiral james tougher. the former supreme allied commander of nato. he is msnbc's chief international security and diplomacy analyst. he's the author of several important books, including to risk it. all nine conflicts in the crucible of decision. his latest piece and blue bernie gets right to the heart of the matter, focusing not only on what sweden and finland

get from joining nato, but how nato would benefit from their membership. admiral, great to see you. you are the only person i wanted to talk to you about this. you and i have been, for years, been talking about the fact that nato was in grave danger. we thought the world really didn't remember why nato was formed. why it was important. donald trump wasn't so into. it it looks like it was, sort, of coming apart of the edges. now it is growing by one, possibly two, countries. of course, the consideration of ukraine, in the distance. it is a big deal. nato has become a much more important thing than it was. >> it has. let's think of it like a computer program. nato one point oh was the cold war. the soviet union. the warsaw pact nato 2.0 you and i both remember, nato goes abroad. nato goes to afghanistan i commanded that mission for four years. this is nato 3.0. i would argue, just like a

computer program, it has gotten better. you are correct to focus on the addition of finland and sweden. as i said in that bloomberg piece, these are two arctic nations. this gives nato a great deal more leverage in the high north. number two, real combat capability. both finland and sweden deployed to afghanistan as part of the nato mission. i commanded these troops. they are superb. they will make a real difference in natives combat strength third and finally you are showing ukraine that both sweden and finland have pledged and are already providing significant military aid to ukraine. big plus. vladimir putin is the most frustrated russian leader in decades watching this expansion which he caused with his invasion of ukraine. >> he completely costed.

he argued in the early days of the war the justification on night one he argued that part of his goal -- the silly goal about the denazification of ukraine and the expansion of ukraine nato. sweden and finland were not into joining nato. they did things with it but they weren't all that into. it now they are like, we want data protection. in case russia decides they want to be a little more adventurous. >> exactly right. nato membership card is the hottest ticket in europe right now. in ukraine, it is frankly not far behind. you're lead in articulated it perfectly. nato did not want to bring them in as a full-fledged ally at this moment because then we are obligated to be in a war about the minute there is an armistice, a negotiation, putin backs down, one of those is going to happen in the next year or so. that point i think ukraine will be most welcome. let's face it, hallie, at that

stage ukraine will have, arguably, the most experienced combat tested well equipped land force in europe. we want them inside the alliance. >> i want to put up that nato map, again. and you are navy. man you understand something about this. uniquely interesting. up in the arctic, which used to be a lot of ice, it is a lot of water now. climate change has made that a very busy passage up north of norway. there is a very large russian and chinese presidents. having a couple more nordic countries up there, even though norway spans the top of the arctic, is strategically important for nato in a way that we didn't think about 30 or 40 years ago. >> absolutely right. in terms of what is happening up there, environmental, i am not a climatologist but i am a mariner. i've sailed the waters of the arctic, and the antarctic. here is a news flash. the ice is melting.

that is going to open up competition for oil, gas, fisheries. critical shipping routes that you talked about. guess what? there is already nato countries up there. u.s., canada, iceland. denmark by virtue of greenland in norway. now you add two more very capable arctic nations. sweden and finland. that is seven nato nations up there in the thunderdome to compete and deter both china, as you correctly point out, and above all, russia. all good for nato. one last thought, since you're asking the admiral, the other important maritime aspect of sweden and finland is the baltic sea. very strategic. that has turned into a nato lake. that, again, is a good thing for nato. >> admiral, always great to have you here. thank you for your experience and your background and your

service to global peace at the former supreme allied commander of nato. admiral james the freedoms is msnbc's chief security analyst. also the author of terrific at all, nine conflicts in the crucible decision. coming up next, the birth of a conspiracy theory. how one man became the center of a right-wing crusade against the fbi. we've been married 45 years. i'm taking a two-year business course. i've been studying a lot. i've been producing and directing for over 50 years. it's a very detailed thing and the pressure's all on me. i noticed i really wasn't quite as sharp as i was. my boss told me about prevagen and i started taking it. i feel sharper. my memory's a lot better. it just works. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. this is american infrastructure, a prime target for cyberattacks. but the same ai-powered security also defends these services for everyone who lives here. ♪

(christina) with verizon business unlimited, i get 5g, truly unlimited data, and unlimited hotspot data. for everyone who lives here. so, no matter what, i'm running this kitchen. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. so this week fbi director, christopher wray, was questioned during a hearing before the house judiciary committed. christopher wray is a lifelong republican. like many other fbi directors before him. he was appointed by donald trump. if you had been at all tuned into right-wing media you probably seen top of defunding the fbi. this new crusade against the fbi is riddled with conspiracy theories about corruption, the deep state, and a democratic plot for total governmental control.

one of the conspiracy theories go something like this. the january 6th insurrection was a fbi false lack operation. the bureau concocted a plan to incriminate donald trump supporters. there were secret agents and informants among the insurrectionists that day. working to trap maga supporters red-handed. one of the key characters in that conspiracy theory is a man named ray apps. epps did join the crowd on january 6th. he did not enter the capitol. he has not been charged with a crime. he's been caught on video around the capitol that day in the day before. >> the conspiracy theory starts here are the night of january 5th. >> give me one minute, can be one minute! >> on the streets of d.c., tensions were running high at a pro trump rally being livestreamed on the internet. the marine veteran tried to take charge >> on prior gonna go to jail out there. tomorrow, we need to go into

the capital. in to the capitol! peacefully. >> you can hear someone yelling, fed. the cloud appeared to imply he was a federal agent of some sort. maybe because he said they should enter the capital, peacefully. the false flag theory was already gaining traction online in chat rooms and message boards where cumin ideas and other conspiracy theories are commonplace. after this video came out, ray epps became the center of a theory that was about to take off. for more than a year conservative outlets like fox news referred to epps as an fbi informant. tucker carlson released a three part tv documentary called, a patriot purge, the dug into this theory. to be abundantly clear, e epps is not an fbi informant. he is a guy from arizona who owned a wedding business with his wife. he voted for trump. he sincerely planned to enter the capitol with the thousands

of other trump supporters who brought the other big lie about the stolen 2020 election. in his lawsuit wray epps says that since then he is received death threats he and his wife were forced to move in closer business. unsurprisingly, mr. epps recently filed a defamation lawsuit against fox. the suit saying, quote, justice fox focused on voting machine company had been falsely claiming a rigged election, fox news needed escape for for january six. it settled on ray epps. fox news did not immediately respond to requests for comment. carlson's lawyer also declined to comment. you would think that the conspiracy theory might stop there. it might fizzle with the latest lawsuit or at least reach its peak. with tucker carlson's documentary. but with epps some conspiracy theory lives on during the house four of the republican chretien of the fbi director, chris wray. >> do you have any knowledge of ray ups being a secret government agent? >> no. i will say this notion that somehow the violence of the

capitol on january six was part of some operation orchestrated by fbi sources in agents is ludicrous and is a disservice to our brave, hardworking, dedicated men and women. >> this is not the only time ray epps was invoked during the hearing, nor was the conspiracy theory being peddled by republicans. in the past, the fbi has carried out some very shady policies. keeping files on u.s. citizens. domestic surveillance. wiretapping. and obsession with fishing au those individuals the bureau considered radical, like dr. martin luther king. it makes it easier for these conspiracy theories to grow out of control. in this age of disinformation in a.i. there is little consensus on the truth. especially when our own lawmakers are the ones feeding into the conspiracies. s proffered by pros like me. and by pros who can actually dunk, like me.

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♪ tourists tourists that turn into scientists. tourists taking photos that are analyzed by ai. as i mentioned before the break so researchers can help life underwater flourish. ♪ this weekend a number of conspiracy theories got airtime at some of the highest levels of government. joining me now is clint watts an msnbc national security analyst. you got a leader microsoft it'll analysis center. he's a former special agent for the fbi's joint terrorism task. foresee the author of the book, messing with the enemies. arriving in social media world of hackers, terrorists, russians, fake news. peter genk with author during. the vice president for the center of information iranians and author of several books including how to lose information war. thank you to both of you. thank you for joining.

it's clint, let me start with you. you worked at the fbi. there are reasons, historically, why one should hold the fbi accountable wonder about what it is up to. this just isn't one of them. this is a nonsensical conspiracy today that took root. no one with that. ago certainly no one in the right wing and conspiracy theory media. now we waste her time with congress that needs to be doing other things as it relates to information in disinformation and misinformation. discussing wray epps, and whether the fbi caused january 6th. >> that is right, ali. obviously, there have been times when the fbi have made mistakes in their history. this is not one of them. the other thing the other they are odds with another. one concern at the fbi's behind january 6th. the other is, the fbi failed it didn't stay in front of january six. it is very hard to do both of things at the same time.

it is a outcome of the classic information age. if there is a story want to create, there is enough information available anywhere on the internet where you can cobble together and make things appear to be true. i think the interesting thing about that 60 minutes special is, you listen to ray epps in that interview, what he has gone through personally. how he has been used through this. it is also rare step that the fbi would take that they would make any comment at all about anybody. in terms of their association. in this case they have come out and said, he was never a part of the fbi, officially. or as a source. we have no connection with him. you put it all together, it is classic a conspiracy. a kernel of truth, something to fall back on to, historically. it comes to an outcome that people would like to see. people tend to believe that which they see first and that which they see most. if they are trusting of the source than in formation, they are going to start believe owes conspiracies overtime, if they repeated not. >> nina, clint said something

interesting. if there isn't enough information to make your case, no matter what your cases. now, in 2023, we are dealing with not just available information but invented information. there was an incident the other day where bill brown or, the author who spends a lot of time talking about russia, bill brown or was deep faced in an interview with petra porsche, former president of ukraine. it was an invented conversation. it now gets put out there. guys like me, we don't have to tell the difference between a fake video real video. particularly in this age of a.i. where it can mimic your actions and your voice. we are now not just dealing with available information, which my crazy uncle in thanksgiving east we'll do. now we are dealing with real stuff that becomes hard to disprove. >> yes, that is absolutely right, ali. i mean, i think we are headed towards a really scary situation in the 2024 election. as the republicans continue to make efforts to push back on

any sort of counter disinformation initiatives. we saw last week, you and i talked about that injunction against the bottom restoration from talking to any social media companies. there has been a temporary stay issued in that injunction. i think we are going to see, probably, a ruling upheld of the gets heard in the fifth circuit. i worry that conspiracy theorists, there are people who fall into that for comfort, for community. the people who are peddling them, like took across, and for instance, they are in it for power and for profit. what you said just before the break about our elected officials who are engaging in these theories and giving them amplification and also in congress that is something that is really sickening to me. it is something we need to demand our officials to better with. >> clint i would've thought that the dominion case, against fox, it was real money. by the way, dominion have many other cases. smartmatic, the other one imaging company, have cases coming. some of them are targeting

smaller organizations and. fox a monetary judgment against them could actually be crippling. i was thinking that that might serve as a disincentive. you are the expert here clint, what is the right disincentive to stop members of congress? the tucker carlson's of the world? media organizations from doing things that are actually undermining faith in our institutions and democracy? >> i think one of the key things, ali, it's just making sure that the truth has many voices and it is spoken a lot. in that hearing that you just saw right there, director wray gave a very definitive statement. it was heard once. is it repeated? it is a game of volume. it is a content war for the truth to get out and have a voice. sometimes that is overlooked. we think, hey, if we see the facts, if director wray says the facts about ramps when you go to this hearing, everyone will hear, number one, probably not. number two. it will stick. it will be our competed by other volumes of information.

-- the truth needs to be repeated. it needs to have many voices. and needs to have many different sources. and it's amplification to make sure people do understand what the facts are government. i think so far, that is important for every trial that comes out. every judicial ruling. every action that comes out, sometimes these conspiracy theories are just dismissed. if that conspiracy is heard more, seen more than the truth. it really is going to find its audience. i think we have to find -- >> it is a difficult time to buy a consumer of information. i just did the intro to the segment, right? my eyelids would understand these conspiracy theories. i understand, pretty much, no one in my audience hear that story. why would they? two segments ago i talked about red states and bidenomics my

audience doesn't have conspiracy theorists in, right? what does this context war mean? what does this volume theory mean? i can sit here book you guys in the show. we can debunked these conspiracy theories that my viewers didn't have in the first place. the people who are out there bathing in the cesspool of conspiracy or not watching me. >> that is exactly the problem. we are not reaching the target audience of those conspiracy theories. i think, frankly, that is why ray upside to bring his lawsuit. also decided to get back at fox. that is why i decided to sue fox, as well, for the conspiracy theories they spread about me. i think there needs to be consequences for people running peoples lives, lying for profit. unfortunately, we cannot see members of congress for the people they say on the floor in the course of duty. but what we can do is go to the ballot box. hopefully your viewers, ali, all over the country can go out there in can vote not just in

the presidential elections but in midterm elections, in local elections that is how we show that we mean business. that is the real consequences that we can have with our elected officials. we have to say to them that they can categorically dismissed their lives. >> what a good answer. the rest of us actually do have some power in this. whether it is a bow box or in school for meetings where they're banning books. we do actually have the vote. we do have our voices even if you are not subject to this stuff, find it. if you have a voice, fight the nonsense that is not there. thanks to both of you. you both actually do this on a daily basis. clint watts, the leader of the microsoft and the threat and in this. and msnbc and author of messing with the embassy surviving the social media world of hackers, terrorists, russians, and fake news. needed zhengzhou it's as a vice president for the center of information resilience and the author of the book, how to lose information war. russia, fake, news in the future conflict. we will be right back. ams in ensure® high protein.

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velshi, what the latest moves from donald trump's legal team tell us about what is coming next and what it all means for an unprecedented election cycle. plus, another shift in the post-roe landscape as iowa effectively bans abortion. it comes as we are learning shocking news about the already dire state women's health care in this country. plus, extreme weather is bearing down on huge swath of the country. but the brutal heat wave looks like on the ground in arizona. a meeting of the velshi banned

book club. you will not want to miss angie thomas, author of the critically acclaimed the hate you give, is here. another hour of velshi begins right now. good morning, it is saturday july the 15th, i am ali velshi. the fugitive look so bright for donald trump. at the moment he is facing a total of 71 felony counts stemming from a number of criminal charges related to the two cases for which he has been indicted so far. the manhattan district attorney's hush money payments probe. special counsel jack smith's federal case involving the mishandling of classified documents. trump and his team have noticeably been struggling to find a defense in the latter case. at times they have offered contradictory excuses to explain why trump illegally retained government records and seemingly obstructed federal authorities from retrieving them for many months if convicted, in that case alone, he could face years-long prison

sentence. that is just one example the legal prayer all the former president faces right now. the classified documents investigation is still in its early stages. according to an abc news report this week. the special counsel's team recently informed a trump organization employee that they are a target in their investigation which means that more indictments could be coming in that case. while trump cannot simply wish that away there is one thing he can do to, possibly, abate accountability and even shut down the cases against him. all he has to do is become president again. a new legal filing from trump's team this week signals that they want to give the former president every opportunity to return to the white house and regain control of the executive branch. including the power to pardon himself. trump's legal team is seeking to indefinitely postpone the criminal federal trial in the classified documents case citing trump's 2024 presidential campaign impossible matchup against president biden as reasons why