of governance and the rule of law to the brink when he tried to overturn the 2020 election. now, as he attempts to rise to power again, he is bringing us right back to that perilous edge. last night, onstage, and west palm beach florida, the trace impeached disgraced former president in the current republican front runner outlined in alarming detail his plans for dismantling democracy. as you know, we do not typically are donald trump's speeches live. on this show, we're judicious about playing clips from his rallies and always either with or for the proper context for discussion. donald trump's lies so much. we all learned on january six of those lives can feel very real violence. we also learned the sting from the poison of trump's lies gets dull or the more frequently are exposed to it. but this is a very very important but. as journalist, we have a duty to bear witness when our nation is in peril. to shine a light on the dark path that donald trump, his allies, and the neighbors are leading us down. this is the moment we find

ourselves in this morning. i will admit to being surprise last night that anything donald trump can say can surprise me anymore. this is some nasty stuff. last night speech was as dangerous for the truth donald trump told us it was her the lies, there were lies, they're always lies with donald trump. the truth was that we're dangerously close to donald trump rising to power again and finishing what he started when he tried to overturn the results of the last presidential election and take over the government in contravention of the will of the american people. if you listen closely to his 99-minute speech, i hope you don't have, to we did. he was basically openly applauding how he's gonna weaponize the government by cleaning house and firing anyone that his administration considers an enemy or insufficiently loyal to trump's self serving agenda. >> when i get back into the oval office, i will totally obliterate the deep state. they will be obliterated.

and we know all the good ones. i will fire all of these corrupt bureaucrats, now, maybe better than anyone else, i know the great ones, i know the smart ones, i know the dumb, once the weekends, i know the stupid ones. i know the winds, i know everybody in washington, i have a ph.d. in learning about the people of washington and those people introduced a little while at the top of the list to, we will create a truth and reconciliation commission to declassify and publish all documents in deep state, spying censorship, all of the corruption that's gone on. 2024 is our final battle. with you at my side, will demolish the deep, state we will expel the warmongers from our government, we will drive out the globalists. we will cast out the communist, marxist, fascist, we will throw off the sikh political class

that hate their country, we will route the fake dues media. we will defeat crooked joe biden, we will drain the swamp once and for all. >> ladle out there. joining me now -- is a professor of history and what you, the author of the lucid newsletter that tracks threats for democracy, the author of the very important book, strongmen, mussolini to the president. unlike donald, trump she does have a ph.d.. also joining me is the former republican congressman, joe walsh of illinois, ran against donald trump for president in 2020. the host of the podcast, white flag, with joe walsh, and the author of the book f silence, although, he spells it out. ruth, i have to say, i'm saying to my team this morning, you should get a royalty check or something like this because you've warned of all of these things that donald trump and authoritarians to. you have warned about how they just start to say the quiet stuff out loud, they don't even care, they keep on saying until people believe him. it's kind of like he listened to you and then just did it.

>> unfortunately, you know, if you know how autocrats behave, at all stages of their political journey. you can actually predict what they're doing. and what they will do. and right now, if we stand back a bit, what's happening is that donald trump is not only telling us how he will, you know, what he started, as you said, in an accelerated fashion, purging people of imprisoning people, but he's also carrying out reeducation of the american people away from democracy. in the last, week he also made a comment that, again, nothing surprises me, but he said, he called the leaders of north korea, russia, and china top-of-the-line people at the top of their game. what this game is as repression, corruption, with impunity,

which is why he aims to be in a position to do. >> he was on an interview with maria -- at fox business this morning in which he again referred to xi jinping is being top of his game, a guy the top of his game. joe, let me just, i need your help and understanding how to make this distinction for republicans, moderates, conservatives, or people who don't joe biden, people who have valid or otherwise complaints about joe biden. you and i've talked for years, you have been a very conservative guy, you have enjoyed debating with people who don't share your view on political issues. but never in your life have you argued to supplant the democratic system, to illuminate your opponents. you've never used language like this is our last battle. some of the stuff he said last night was deeply deeply dark. at this point, is he doubling down to get the support he's already guy? i don't know how you grow a base with this kind of talk in america. >> ali, i'm so glad that you

played some of his speech last night. i really think the american people, all of us, we need to hear and see from him as much as we can. i don't think my friends, your friends on the left really sufficiently understand how close donald trump came to winning in 2020 and realistically how close, again, he could win in 2024. ruth is right, nothing trump said last night surprised me. he painted a picture of a dictator in the white house for four years. but ali, what should scare the american people's the cheers and the roars. all of those people in the auditorium last night who want, and i need to stress this, because i hear from these people every day, ruth is the expert on authoritarians, i come from the maga cult. i hear from cult members all the time.

and they tell me all the time what you said. they've given up on the democratic process. they want a strongman to quite literally give them their america. that's what they tell me every day, that's what the american people need to understand. >> there is 1 million components to these, things i just love to talk to you for an hour about things he said and what the historical presidents are. but let's talk about leftist, marxist, universities, you talk about communist, you talk about marxist, fascist, here's what he said what he's gonna do what universities in this country. >> after 50 years of leftist domination of the universities, i will take bold action to reclaim our colleges from the communist left. anti american radicals will no longer be given a free hand to dominator institutions of higher education.

using my levers over college, a creditors, we are going to choke off the money to schools that aid the marxist assault on our american heritage and on western civilization itself. the days of subsidizing communist indoctrination and more colleges will soon be over. >> i want to parse this a little bit, there can be a valid discussion about whether you think universities have a liberal or conservative slant, where it should be. but let's parse a little of the language he used. he talked with the communist left, he talked about anti-american radicals, marxist assault on american heritage, and western civilization, and communist indoctrination. what is he doing here? what's the historical precedents to this? >> this is the right-wing playbook that i track in my book, strong men. playbook thathere is not an acte communist presence in your country, you invent when. an anti-fascist in the 1930s

call this the scarlet phantom. you have to invent the communist menace. i remind people that turning point usa, which was the host for this horrible speech, already runs professor watchlists, it's a sight, i am on it as somebody who is supposedly indoctrinating students to leftist marxism. this is typical, this rhetoric has the same rhetoric as mussolini, the chilean dictator, who purged universities 24,000 staff and teachers and students were purged and sent to prisons under the dictatorship. and it's a highly highly dangerous for him to be speaking. he is painting something across the board. and with fascism, it's how the pieces work together. this is education, also promised to obliterate the deep state, to do the same kind of purging for the judiciary

system, the fbi, and so, that's what's worrying. it's a total plan to cleanse the nation in ways that have happened since fascism. >> i want you both to stand, by my take a quick break, continue this conversation, including but what his plans are for the judiciary, the former congressman, joe walsh, we'll be right back. be right back. hen we metamorphosize into our new evolved form, we carry that spirit with us. because you can take alfa romeo out of italy. but you best believe, you can't take the italy out of an alfa romeo. (man) mm, hey, honey. looks like my to-do list grew. "paint the bathroom, give baxter a bath, get life insurance," hm. i have a few minutes.

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sleepovers just aren't what they used to be. a house full of screens? basically no hiccups? you guys have no idea how good you've got it. how old are you? like, 80? back in my day, it was scary stories and flashlights. we don't get scared. oh, really? mom can see your search history. that's what i thought. introducing the next generation 10g network. only from xfinity. >> is there any indication the

judge will grant this motion? >> i don't know, i don't severe the highly respected judge, a very smart judge, a very strong judge. >> you appointed her. >> i did, i'm very proud to have appointed her. very smart, very strong, and loves our country. loves our country. we need judges that love our country so that they do the right thing. >> back with me, ruth, expert historian and professor of history and why you, former republican congressman, joe walsh, of illinois. that was an interview that just

happen on fox business with maria -- joe, i don't bother telling the viewer who is talking about, fantastic judge who loves her country, whom he appointed, who happens to be overseeing his case, the mar-a-lago case, that's aileen cannon. we've heard trump talk about judges before, generally when they're involved in the case of his, they hate this country, all sorts of things, interesting, right? likes this job, honorable, she loves the country, she's a patriot, would be more like her. >> again, we are right, ali. he has done this now for years. he has attacked judges who stand up to him. it's what ruth has been talking about, a president of the united states trying to control the judiciary. you know, per our earlier conversation, too many of us lack the imagination of one another four years of donald trump might look like. i would challenge anybody and everybody to go back to the last four years and think about everything he did that you couldn't imagine what happened.

think about what he did after the 2020 election. i'll bet seven or eight years ago, you never could have imagined that a sitting american president who lost an election would try to violently overthrow that election. and ali, think about this, if trump is in the white house, who is gonna stop him? look at my former house colleagues, which house republican would stand up to him? and all of these more respectable republicans in the united states senate who barely open their mouths. if donald trump is in the white house, i challenge anyone to think of any of my former republican colleagues who will lift a finger to try to stop him. >> you know, ruth, you and i are both gonna see on our twitter feeds about why would you run any of donald trump's speech? just giving him exposure. sometimes you have to, he says things that it's important to viewers listen to and maybe tell their friends, you know, he actually said this. one of the things he said, you heard in this clip that i ran

before segment started, he is gonna establish the truth and reconciliation commission. this is something that has happened in a few dozen countries. they generally deal with something really serious. in south africa, it was how to come together after of -- various versions of this. and trump's version, it sounds like retribution. it sounds like the way he's going to use to go after people who are not in place of the federal government, but all through society he lumped median there, academics, the judiciary. >> absolutely, this is what i call the upside down world of authoritarianism or you take something which has often been used to help the return of democracy heal from authoritarian human rights abuses and you turn it into a weapon to be able to commit human rights abuses and authoritarian takeovers. that's exactly what he wants to

do here. by the way, if you're in the heads of people like donald trump, not a nice place to be, but i heard that interview to bartiromo, this is a message when he says judges that love our country, it's a very nice judge, this is a message to judge cannon to keep staying on the line he wants her to stay on and all judges. this is trump's way of kind of, it's not threatening, but it's reminding people that he's watching them. that is exactly what authoritarians do. trump's expert at this. >> joe, he had language in that speech, again, we were on this earlier, in which he talks about, they are coming from you, they hail. i'm standing in between, i am the only thing that stands between you and they, them, the deep state, whatever, the enemies, the fascist, the communists, whatever he wants to do. obviously the audience is right

for that. you talk to folks who are responding positively to what kind of message. >> ali, they respond more positively to that then anything donald trump says. that brings a quarter them that he is the one who's taking all the fire. he's the victim. coming after all of his supporters. ali, i was thinking a few weeks ago, there were three very consequential court rulings. i would be willing to wager that i, myself, and probably many of my friends on the left probably disagree with the substance of some of those rulings. but here we are. thank god you're so vigilant in ringing this bell. this is all about defending democracy now, period. put our policy differences aside rain now, tea party joe walsh is locking arms with democrats because, ali, look, i

tried to convert, because i come from the maga call, i try to convert some of these folks every week and every month. it's difficult work. and the job of the country is to just defeat them. this needs to be defeated. that means we put our policy differences aside right now, we lock arms to defend democracy. >> you know i've always promised each other, joe? when that day comes, we'll come back to policy differences, will have robust debates on a daily basis, democracy exists on policy differences. something else is being snuffed out here. thanks to both of, a great conversation. ruth, a professor of history and what you and the author of the book strongman from a slightly to the president, former republican congressman joe walsh of illinois. thanks to both via. coming, up we're all seeing and feeling the severe effects of climate change every day, the relentless rain, extreme, heat flooding, wildfires. but we cannot stay frozen with fear. now, it's actually the time to act. (vo) consumer reports evaluates vehicles for car shoppers in...

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full-fledged invasion of ukraine. which vladimir putin planned would take three days to capture the capital of kyiv. now, putin purge maybe underway in russia. a lot of turmoil, confusion, and mystery within the russian military hierarchy sensitive ghani prigozhin's mutiny. so, here's what we know, what we think we, know and what questions still remain right now. let's start with yevgeny prigozhin, the head of the wagner mercenary force. he was initially believed to be in belarus. belarusian president, alexander lukashenko said as much, but then later said that prigozhin was action russia. in any event, prigozhin has not been seen since he halted his march midway to moscow. as for those directly from the russian military, reporting indicates at least a dozen senior officers have been detained for questioning and at least that many of all seven

suspended or fired, which includes general stargazer of kin, the head of russia's aerospace forces, their air force, basically, who previously led russia's forces and ukraine from october until january. some of kim's close to prigozhin. may have been aware of prigozhin's plans. he has not been seen or heard from since he appeared in a strange video pleading with prigozhin and his troops to call off the revolt. this week, the head of russian parliament defense committee said that surovikin is currently, quote, resting and not available right now. read into that what you will. also the lieutenant governor, vladimir alexey of, a staunch supporter of prigozhin appeared in a video, acting sympathetic to prigozhin's revolt. the colonel general mikal mazen's of, former deputy defense minister who led russia's destruction of the ukrainian city of mariupol early in the war and who reportedly later joined the wagner force, both of them have

also not been seen since the mutiny. we're gonna keep a close eye on what those developments are, we don't know yet what is going on. i want to take you now to pennsylvania, to bucks county pennsylvania, northeast philadelphia where there is a news conference underway about people who have been killed and are missing as a result of floods. >> and reaches of new jersey, we're thankful for those agencies and personnel who had the call for help. we appreciate their assistance and professionalism, as it has been invaluable service. most importantly, we want the families of those who are lost, that they're in our hearts and we will work tirelessly until we locate the loved ones. we cannot imagine how difficult it's been for them at this time. as of 10:53 this morning, we have recovered one additional body. we are not releasing the names or any other information on that this time. they were frowned approximately

one miles south of taylorsville road in the creek. i know you have many questions on the missing and who unfortunately did not survive, but at this time, for not releasing the names or all proper notifications have been named. however, we can tell you tragically that we are looking for two children from the same family. one boy who is nine months, one female who is his older sister, who is to. we are attempting to locate one more female adult at this time. at this time, we have no further information. thank you very much. >> all, rightly you have there is officials from upper makefield pennsylvania, this is in bucks county, northwest of philadelphia, this is from severe flooding but took place overnight last few days for all the rain we've been getting here in the northeast.

that was terrible news, we've been following this all morning. what we've learned is just in the last half hour, they discovered one more person who is deceased. now four people known dead in this flooding overnight and what you heard from the fire chief there about the three people who are missing, we knew there were four people missing, they found another body. there are three people missing. of those three missing, there is a nine month old boy, and a two-year-old girl. and an adult female. they have implied that this is a recovery effort now, not an effort to save any more lives. we will keep a very close eye on what's going on in pennsylvania. unfortunately, this is not a freak situation, this is happening more and more. in fact, this discussion i was about to have, we'd planned ahead of this news. it's extremely fitting. it comes from the expression, you missed the forest for the trees. it's invoked when someone is focusing so much in one facet of something that they missed the big picture.

the climate crisis can sometimes to like the opposite. you miss the trees because you're so freaked out by the forest. you miss the different facets of this issue because the whole thing can feel so overwhelming. i never wanted, when we're talking about the climate, forget the big picture, i do want to zoom in on one aspect of the climate crisis that doesn't always get a lot of attention, it's the oceans. over the last 50 years, humans have burned enough fossil fuel, will, gas, oil, cut down enough trees that we have generated enormous amount of heat. more than 380's that are jewels of heat. you're forgiven if you don't notice that a drill is. it's such a massive amount of heat that it's hard for us to comprehend. scientists have translated into something with easier to grasp, atomic bombs. as of 2020, human activity is producing five atomic bombs worth of coffee every second. five atomic bombs worth if he every second, only 1% that he actually ends up in the atmosphere. a little bit is absorbed in the

land, a bit entice, then melts. most of that he is absorbed by the earth's oceans. most of the globe's oceans anyway. most of that heat goes to the oceans. while the ocean has been warming for decades, this past ten years has in extreme and relatively sudden temperature increases. as we enter an el niño weather system pattern, a system of unusual high ocean surface temperatures, the impact on our heating oceans are becoming severe. the global average ocean temperature hit an all-time high in april. continues to break records almost daily. why do you care? well, one of the impacts of warming oceans is the harm that's cuts to marine ecosystems. coral reefs, bleach, and die, mass fish die of, summertime species attempt to adapt by migrating, including the species of phytoplankton that produce at least half of the oxygen that we breathe. that's not all. warmer ocean temperatures are already having immediate effects on your daily life. warmer oceans contribute to stronger storms, that's what

we're seeing. hurricane, cyclone, they facilitate more of operation. people tell me when it cover her, kim is always been hurricanes. yeah, but the really strong these. days the really damaging. the floods are really damaging. they're deadly as we saw in bucks county, pennsylvania. they dump more rain. look at the flooding that has occurred around the world and last few days. three people, four people dead now, three others remain missing in this flash flooding that we're covering right now in pennsylvania. last, week torrential rains caused flooding in japan, another heavy rainstorm to the north brought more rain in less than half a day that the region typically sees in an entire month. that's for moving to south korea last night, more than 30 people have died after being trapped and flash floods in south korea. in vermont in new york, one person died, more flash flooding expected this week. flash flooding kills people. in northern india, over the last week and a half, torrential rains have triggered flooding and landslides, 100 people are known to be dead. here's the thing, with a top experts on climate change talk

about what they're, saying they're bringing alarm bells, they've called it a crisis, a global emergency, what have you, they're telling us we need to take action. it's scary because it's existential, it really is. it's deeply important not to look away from this. despite undue market keep us frozen and fear and inaction, let's keep our eyes open, let's protect ourselves, let's face the challenges already here. we need to elect leaders will make the climate crisis the top priority. joining me now is monica medina, president ceo of the wildlife conservation society, the first, she was the first special -- for biodiversity and water resources for the biden administration. she was the first u.s. diplomat does it needed to advocate for global biodiversity. we work with noah, you know of what we speak. >> i do, ali. >> we want to talk about oceans, the flooding is the story. >> it is the story, thank you for having, me thank you for talking about this important topic. this is not just this year's

disaster film. this is a preview of what we will be seeing year in and year out. we have to get serious about adaptation, up until now, adaptation funding has been a miniscule part of the overall effort on climate and global climate change. it's changing now, the u.s. government is putting more and more money behind the kinds of actions that we need that will save lives. we can predict the heat really well, these flash floods, like what we've seen today in pennsylvania, last week in vermont. those are harder, people need to be aware of the danger. flooding arrest is a killer, as you've seen this morning. we need to get people the information they need to get to higher ground faster, earlier, so we can save lives. >> whether it's the clouds we see in the northeast from the wildfires in canada or whether it's the hundred and 15-degree temperature in phoenix, where these flash floods, there is a few points to, this right?

the fire chief in bucks county, they have to deal with the immediate effects, they're now trying to recover the bodies of the people who are missing. there's local policy, cooling centers, things you can do in the short term. >> grading the grid. >> correct, then we move up the chain, right? there's upgrading the, red finding -- there is a figuring out how to put less fossil fuel in the air. it's a complete system. >> it is. we cannot forget that nature is an important part of the system. we take nature for granted, we at the wildlife conversations inside been working on adaptation projects in 48 states for the last decade. and it pays off. there isn't a better current technology for capturing carbon than nature, particularly trees. but even offshore, sea grasses, all kinds of ecosystems that our coastal, it can really help us. in the meantime, we do need to be prepared for the disasters that are happening.

between creating cooling by planting trees all over this country in urban areas. you know, everybody knows when you're hot, find shade, right? that is exactly what we can do today. and we should be doing more and more of it because we can't invent our way out of the climate disaster anymore. >> and a conversation michael man the other day. on one hand, he says, i'm glad that all of these manifestations of climate change are causing people to understand it. but worried he's gonna tip over, we were in denial for a while. now, we're gonna tip over into hopelessness. >> right. >> he said, don't let that grab you. >> we can't, we have the power, you know, there's this great exhibit at the bronx zoo, part of the wildlife conservation society, amir, people look at, it says underneath, it the greatest danger to the world, the animal that is most dangerous. ldwe're also the one that is mot capable of making a difference. we are today in this country. people cannot lose hope. we don't have a choice.

we have to adapt now. we can do it. we have to make up our minds to do it. it's something every person can do, whether it's planting trees in your own backyard, farmers, changing their agricultural practices in order to capture more carbon, make the soils more fertile, and make themselves more productive, allow us to create more food in a smaller space. there are all kinds of things we can do if we just put our minds to. i'm determined, so is our whole organization. i believe in the originator of power of nature and people to make the right decisions. this is the moment, we can grab it, we can recognize it for what it, isn't we can take action. >> do you think this administration, a, is doing enough, and be, how do they signal how seriously they take this? for people for whom a climate is the biggest issue, they're worried all of our political polarization is pushing us out of the dialogue. >> i think the administration is doing an awful lot. congress passed this, you know, two big bills last year that created an awful lot of funding

that we never had before on these issues. it's fantastic. can we always do more? yes, we absolutely have to do more i think the thing about nature is that it appeals to everyone. people love trees, the trump administration -- so is the biden administration. congress is firmly behind nature and biodiversity it is our best line of defense right now. of course, we need new technology, as we're leaning into those as we speak, you know? changing our electric grid, changing the way we get power. but we have to actually look at what's happening around us. nature and biodiversity are essential for our economies. we cannot live without water. businesses cannot work without water. farmers can't farm without water. we need to be shifting our approaches today into the biodiversity realm. this is a chance for organizations like mine who were doing the work on the ground, here in the u.s., it's a global problem, all over the world, we need the amazon, we

need the congo, we need indonesia, all across the pacific. we have to be thinking about how to make nature our best defense on climate. >> a good way to think about, it gives us hope. thanks, monica, as always. good to see you. president ceo of the wildlife conservation society, former assistant secretary of state for ocean and environmental science under president biden. all right, facebook zuckerberg is trying to position threads of the more democratic answer to elon musk's twitter. let's be honest, neither billionaire good options for you or me or democracy. stay with me for high stakes social media conversation that you do not want to mess. ot want to mess. sensodyne sensitivity gum & enamel relieves sensitivity, helps restore gum health, and rehardens enamel. i'm a big advocate of recommending things that i know work. hey all, so i just downloaded the experian app because i wanted to check my fico® score, but it does so much more. this thing shows you your fico® score, you can get your credit card recommendations, and it shows you ways to save money.

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i can dunk if i want to. what are you working on? and if we proffer it we know youa bomb.ffer it too. it's happening, isn't it? this is the most important thing to every happen in the history of the world! >> one of those two plus things happening on the internet right now is also unfortunately important to you, to me, and to democracy. if you have a healthy distance from social media, there is a chance you've missed this if you're chronically online, you've probably seen a feud

unfolding. and one quarter, elon musk, the earth's wealthiest person, musk bought twitter last year. since then, it's devolved. using -- general functionality. the illusion that twitter provided a town square farm for discussion has long dried up. as flawed as it was, twitter did become an important outlet for journalists and governments to get out information and for people around the world to engage with what they needed to know. and the other corner on the street, mark zuckerberg, founder of facebook, meta, and now a new app called threads. it's a text based social media platform, apparently built arrival twitter. threads is breaking records with its rapid ascension, more than 100 million new users joined and its first week on the market. what strikes me is that social media users seemed so happy to have an alternative to the crumbling remains of twitter that perhaps they forgot who were running back to. facebook and meta has one of the worst track records of any social media company when it comes to disinformation. it had real life impacts.

a study of social media use leading up to the 2020 election showed conspiracy theories about election fraud got more than six times the engagement that real news stories about election coverage got on facebook. these two billionaires have been an ongoing digital battle throwing insults that i haven't heard since middle school. they've apparently agreed to a physical real life cage fight and most recently musk challenge zuckerberg to a different kind of contest, i will not read it out loud. joining me now are the two guys i want to talk to most about this, senior porter for nbc news, ben collins, and roger mchenry, cofounder of elevation partners. former adviser to mark zuckerberg, the author of the book, zipped, waking up to the facebook catastrophe. i was thinking about both of you because i'm fascinated, i'm fascinated by how many people signed up for threads. because we want a cleaner, better, less anti democratic, less garbage filled, social media network. this is a facebook product,

roger. it's mark zuckerberg's project. what's wrong with us think that this is somehow gonna save us? >> ali, it's really unnerving to me to see this happening again and again. it's as though or mice and zuckerberg is putting a new piece of cheese on the mouse trap. we're looking at it going, wow, that's a tasty piece of cheese. we should have learned a lesson. internet platforms, not just facebook, not just instagram, which are owned by, medical so google, youtube, tiktok, they've all rolled back, all of the protections. by the way, -- the protections they put in place in 2020 to protect democracy, all of that has been rolled back. no defense right now. and the notion that zuckerberg is somehow going to run a pro democracy site on threads as laughable. what he's going to do is try to lure us and, get us addicted with a product that won't have advertising for a while. and then, when he needs to monetize it, he will do to that

product exactly what he did to instagram and exactly what he did to facebook. democracy is going to suffer dramatically because this company has absolutely no economic incentives today to promote facts or truth on any of its platforms. what it does as promote the content that gets people to be engaged with their site, that's really harmful. >> would you have said over and over again is and competitive democracy, we start having this discussion before we thought democracy was fully imperiled. now that democracies actually in a fragile state, the idea we're getting more information through less regulated platforms, ben collins, you have been living on this world before we were all living in, it now we're all living in that. now, all of us get exposure to the conspiracy theories, the lies, the hyper politicize a shun might we see on social media. what is your take on how this is unfolding? the twitter stuff now merging into the threat conversation? >> yeah, what you said is right. there are no good guys in this sphere right now.

there are less bad guys. roger and i agree on this, this is exactly what's going to take place. it's going to be a relatively ad free, safer space than twitter, right? and then overtime, it will start to develop into a place where tries to sensational -- the important thing to note here, twitter has devolved to the point where literal, you know, nazism people who are white supremacists are getting paychecks from elon musk and a select program designed over the last week to pay those people back so they continue to reply with the most insidious and insane stuff on this platform. actively trying to tear down democracy, actively siding with anti-democratic forces. facebook is not doing that right now, they're trying to sell ads, they're trying to get wendy's on, they're there trying to get, you know, well navy and stuff on to their platform to pretend like their people. is that bad? yeah, not great.

i don't like you very much, i think it's kind of boring. the differences, the most important difference here, you can actually shape this thing. we're at the start of something, 100 million people on, it's not even available in the eu. they haven't really put the regulations in place. they put the system in place, they put the regulations. if you constantly push and constantly push back against locke and all of these people, if you say the sort of thing is unacceptable, we don't want white nationalists here -- you could actually make that change because they want to create advertiser friendly products. they will listen, we are not good guys, they're not trying to help you, so they're trying to sell you stuff. elon musk is trying to sell you a very grim reality, a very grim future of the world, as doc is trying to sell you pieces. i think i'll take the pieces. >> roger, ben makes an interesting point, not approved in the u.s., the eu takes the

stuff seriously and attempts, in some way, to regulate it. when we talk about regulating, which we've talked about for a long time, the pushback i get from conservatives and libertarians as but the last thing i want is the government regulating speech on private platforms. tell me again, i've had this discussion for, years but tell us again, for the purpose of our audience, what is the gold standard or what does success look like him trying to regulate the idea that, as ben says, nazism hateful people are posting, hateful people are getting paid money by these social media platforms to promote outrageous content? >> all the, to court issues that we have to look at. one is consumer safety. a big part of the problem is companies, they have no incentive to protect people from harm. there is a consequence, you see products like instagram, which threads as part of instagram. it was designed to generate envy and teenage girls. there are some teenagers who

are strong enough to use instagram without problems. but for literally millions of young people, instagram has been a source of psychological harm is currently permissible, it's even encouraged by our economy. wall street has lights the earnings. the second issue you have here, the business model that ben was talking about a moment ago, it's based on our attention. in order to capture attention, they take data of each of every one of us, which helps them anticipate algorithmically what our hot buttons are, how they can provoke fear and outrage in this. those are the things that make us most when a condition to be a buyer of stuff. it makes us most attractive to advertisers. they're constantly manipulating our choices. sometimes, manipulating our behavior. that should not be allowed. so, safety and privacy, the two court areas. nothing here has to do with

freedom of speech. there is no attempt by the government. i don't think anybody rationally is suggesting the government should be restricting anything. i think they should be doing those protecting consumers from harm. both in the form of direct safety and in the form of manipulation of our choices. that has to be our focus. >> ben, do you see that happening? i didn't have on my bingo card that twitter is gonna get crazier this year, that it was, and it did. but twitter has gotten negative cash flow. admiral news have dropped by 50%, reporting just as of yesterday. for the moment, the shift into the cesspool has not been lucrative for twitter. >> yeah, it cannot sustain at this pace. look, for years, you know, roger has known this to, the far-right, people like steve bannon, stephen miller, they have pushed this idea of creating a parallel internet. the idea of the parallel internet, if you have a big enough, we can take over the culture and right-wing talking

points, no matter how popular or unpopular they are, will be given even shrift in the culture war. that has largely, unfortunately, proven true to great cost, both for twitter's bottom line and for regular people out there trying to preserve our democracy. they tried to do this by truth social, all these other things, then they realize they needed somebody to man up and just by one of the major platforms. exactly what happened elon musk and what are. now, the other far-right talking points, getting pushed into the mainstream in this way. i also wanna say one thing, there is impact, massive censorship regime coming from the united states government right now. and this thing called the weaponization of the federal government subcommittee, the judiciary committee, that jim jordan -- he's bringing in, subpoenaing disinformation researchers all throughout the country, tying them up in these ridiculous mccarthy style congressional

investigations that have nothing to do with the reality. but there is stopping the study of disinformation plays like stanford, university of washington. even places like harvard. they believe that the disinformation industry, people who are studying this stuff are actually the bad guys. there really, the united states government, in this way, is salting speech. the problem is actually the inverse. hopefully overtime, will start to realize who's actually giving silence here. >> i could talk to guys all day. appreciate both so much. nbc news senior reporter, ben collins and roger mckinney, major silicon valley investor, cofounder -- and author is up to, we can't do the facebook catastrophe. we'll be right back. l be right back.

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news story out of pennsylvania, bucks county pennsylvania, northwest of philadelphia. four people have now been confirmed dead as a result of flash flooding overnight. the fire chief reported to us about 30 minutes ago that there is still three people missing but they're not considering this a rescue effort anymore, they're considering it recovery effort. they believe the people they're looking for are not alive. the people they're looking for are a two-year-old, a nine month old boy, and the two year old girl, as well as an adult woman. so, a two-year-old boy, a nine month old boy, a two-year-old girl, and an adult women are still unaccounted for. four people than confirmed dead,

three people missing in bucks county, pennsylvania. it will stay on top of that story. before i go, i have a reading assignment for the velshi banned book club members. i know why the caged bird sings by the incomparable on my angelo, part literature, part autobiography, she tells us her story, starting at three years old, some 12 with her grandmother in arkansas, having her first child at 16 years old. i know why the caged bird sings grapples with identity racism, bodily autonomy, family ties, and religion. once described by a critic as essential reading, i know i the caged bird sings is a classic in every sense of the word. part of the fabric of this country. they simply need to be red, studied, experienced. you may not have read this book some summer reading in high school. certainly worth revisiting. once you finish, please send us your thoughts and comments for our amazing my angelo expert panel, this is a powerful meeting of the velshi banned book club. that does it for me, thank you

for watching, catch me back here next saturday and sunday morning from 10 am to noon eastern. don't forget, well she is available as a podcast, subscribe and listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. stay right where you are, inside the jim psaki begins right now. right now. what a week for the twice indicted republican front runner. jack smith tears apart trump's request for a delay in the documents trial, as we also learn more about what the special counsel is asking witnesses about january 6th. i sat down with congressman jamie raskin for a deep dive into all of the legal perils surrounding the former president, and that is coming up first. plus football coach turned senator tommy tuberville is single-handedly holding up hundreds of military promotions over his opposition to the pentagon's abortion policy. congressman abigail spanberger joins me to discuss why it is jeopardizing our national security and later pga tour officials testify in a heated senate hearing onth