of our breaking coverage. good day. i am chris jansing at msnbc headquarters in new york city. on this day when the breadth and depth of political peril for former president trump are expanding, critical decisions are being made with the expresident moving ahead in multiple court rooms in multiple states. trump today revealing and two law enforcement sources confirming, he has been named a target in the special counsel's january 6th investigation. that means he almost certainly faces an arrest and an indictment. how might that case intersect with the classified documents case where a critical question on timing could be answered by the end of the day. the decision facing the judge is one that will have an impact, a major impact on the 2024 race. whether that trial happens before or after next year's presidential election. but we start with former

president trump now one step closer to facing charges that would be among the most extraordinary ever brought against an american leader, let alone an expresident for allegedly trying to undermine an election and block the peaceful transfer of power. it would mark the culmination of an eight-month investigation by special counsel jack smith that has touched on nearly every aspect of attempts by trump and his allies to keep him in office after january 2021. i want to bring in justice reporter ryan riley. the chief host of msnbc's way too early, and a political analyst. and paul butler, a former federal prosecutor, law professor at georgetown and an msnbc legal analyst. so when people hear january 6th, they understandably go to the riots, the damage, the violence at the capitol. the scope of this investigation goes beyond that. remind us what jack smith has been looking at here.

>> jack smith's team has been focusing on fake electors who said that trump actually won. they've been trying to mess up, throw something in the gears to stop what was going forward on january 6th. these fake electors were delivered to congress on january 5th. this is a long-going scheme after the critical months after donald trump lost the election but before it was formally certain fade. that's where a lot more of the potential culpability for trump really is at. based on what we've seen so far, including from the january 6th committee's investigation from all the journalism that we've seen, we haven't found any really strong link that's say donald trump commanding a mob to break the windows and storm the capitol. there hasn't been much of that. and there is been links between the mob that stormed the capitol and individuals, including, say, for example, a member of his administration who stormed the

capitol themselves. and certainly it could have been a common sense outgrowth of telling people the election was stolen and that biden would be an illegitimate president taking over the west wing. there hasn't been the firm connection. i think what this is exploring is the fake electors and the fundraising scheme. this notion that he was telling all of his supporters and raising money for his supporters, telling them the lies about the election. a critical aspect is whether or not donald trump actually believed the lies he was telling about the election himself. >> so paul, ryan just pointed out clearly the complications, the intricacies of the race. do you expect charges, and if so, what do you think is most likely? >> so judgment seem to be focused on three separate conspiracies. one involving the violence of the insurrection that we just heard about from ryan. the other on the big lie. especially the fake elector

plot. and then fundraising by the trump campaign after they lost the election, but they still tried to use the big lie to gin up contributions. so we think specifically about a claim, conspiracy to defraud. chris, that would mean, would require prosecutors to prove that trump knew he lost but he still wanted to remain in power so he worked with lawyers and others to try to overturn the election. the fake elector certificates that were submitted to congress, those were one result. that could be charged as conspiracy to defraud the united states, and jack smith could be lack at obstruction of an official proceeding, the effort to try to get make pence to stop or delay the certification of the electoral college vote. and then incitement. that's a long shot but certainly

a possibility. >> let me ask but the whole idea of the big lie. he put out a statement today, the campaign put out a statement again reaffirming what trump has been saying. he believes still that the 2020 election was stolen. whether or not that is true, how critical is that in terms of jack smith's case? is there an argument to be made even if trump felt like he won the election? the fact that multiple court cases, dozens of court cases wednesday against him? that no proof was ever found. that multiple people in his circle, including top lawyers said to him, there is nothing to show that this election was stolen. >> there's so much evidence that contradicts. a federal judge has found probable cause that trump along with john eastman conspired to

defraud and obstructed an official proceeding. there has been testimony from two of the highest ranging people in the trump administration, the former vice president and chief of staff mark meadows. other people in trump's inner circle like jared kushner and hope hicks have been interviewed, and certainly questions about trump's state of mind have been at the forefront of what jack smith would have wanted to know. and chris, if you remember how comprehensive jack smith's mar-a-lago investigation is, he's reportedly called to every employee at mar-a-lago and every secret service agent assigned to the trump detail. there appears to be the same level of detail with regard to the january 6th investigation. so the grand jury has heard from fake electors, from state election officials, lawyers like rudy giuliani, and trump administration officials like steve miller. so if you're going after the

king, you have to bring him down. jack smith seems to believe that he's got the evidence to bring down the former president. >> let's talk about the potential political impact. we haven't seen a lot of it from donald trump. this is different. people have seen the pictures. people know that folks died at the capitol on january 6th. and this is about the integrity of our country. this is about democracy. is it different this time? could it be different this time? what are you hearing from your sources both inside the campaign and in just general political circles if this could be the time that something happens with the poll number for donald trump with his base? >> first of all, we can see there's real alarm in the trump camp. the former president's lengthy, lengthy, him breaking the news that he had received this target letter betrays that.

i think we have to look at this, the fallout here in two different parts. first is the republican primary. we know that his indictment in the mar-a-lago classified documents case as well as the one in new york state did not dent his popularity. we know in fact his poll number only went up in the republican party. but some in the gop think could, and i emphasize could, it seem like governor desantis' campaign is based entirely on being the next man up if trump were to implode. there's some thought that this might be the case that doesn't. it is by far the most serious. maybe this will have not a impact. then again, we don't know if that is the case. donald trump has spent over two years minimizing, downplaying, rationalizing what happened on january 6th. and poll suggest a lot of republicans believe him. they think it was a protest that got out of hand. we know that's not true but the lack of facts have not stopped trump and his supporters before.

maybe this change things a little bi. maybe his poll numbers for republicans go down a little bi. it probably doesn't really change his lead though. that said, a general election is an entirely different story. this even more than the other criminal cases he's facing could really damage him next area in 2024 were he to be the republican nominee. it is simply difficult to imagine those independent, the swing voters, who often decide elections. often they are suburban women. it is hard to imagine they wouldn't be repulsed by these reminders of january 6th. this seems like it could only hurt trump in a general election, even if it doesn't perhaps dent him that much in a primary. >> you mentioned this seems to be what the desantis campaign is running on. and there are probably a few other republicans who are hoping this provides some kind of opening for them. having said that. how much is the biden white house depending on this, given that he's still under water in his own poll numbers, and that

the poll numbers showing him in head to head match-ups with donald trump aren't exactly comforting for the democrats. >> first, briefly, one last point. asa hutchinson has called for trump to drop out. we'll see if other republicans follow suit. they're not going to be able to make the claim that this makes donald trump unfit because so many republicans still like trump and don't mind january 6th. there might be electability. i would watch for that to say, hey, we like donald trump. maybe january 6th wasn't such a big deal but this might hurt him next year. as for the biden white house and campaign, no doubt they believe this can only be helpful. they won't say anything. they'll maintain their vow of silence like they did from the last trump indictment. the contrast is plain as day. and they are going to play this implicitly or allow their surrogates to play up the idea that this makes donald trump unfit for office.

even if they don't make the direct call to make that declaration, they believe it is simply understood. they will contrast president biden governing, doing the will of the people versus donald trump likely facing charges for trying to upend our very democracy. they think this certainly helps biden heading into a re-election campaign. you're right. his poll numbers, they're not great. by most measures, they're afraid of trump in a head to head match-up. and they believe this january 6th indictment will only add tom. >> so let me ask but the world and politics collide. tonight trump is set to pretape a town hall for fox tonight. or taping it now for tonight. anyone who knows him thinks he will say the same things that we saw in his social media. potentially put out by his campaign. but legally, if you were on his legal team, would you want him to do this interview right now?

>> it's a night player for a defense attorney. but chris, it's a familiar nightmare in public corruption cases where politicians often get conflicting advice from their defense attorneys and their political adviser. here it's on steroids. it's not like trump is being charged with a routine public corruption offense like stealing money from the government. here he's being charged with now, two cases if he does catch this case involving january 6th that directly impact his work in the white house. and so it's entirely legitimate for voters to know whether the former president who wants to be the president again is actually loyal to the united states and our system of democracy or not, as jack smith is likely to allege. so trump almost has to address that on the campaign trail, much

to the chagrin of his defense team. >> thank you. jonathan, you're back with me in just a moment. we have another breaking story we're following. a critical hearing today in the federal prosecution of donald trump. a judge weighing how and when the former president will stand trial for classified documents as the fight plays out over what evidence plays out in court. vert evidence plays out in court.

the critical question of whether donald trump's classified documents trial will happen before or after the election could get answered today in a florida courtroom. it transform what would otherwise be a routine pretrial hearing into one with profound, even historic implications for the 2024 nomination, the election, and the future of the country. and we'll get our first glimpse into a fight that will be at the heart of this trial.

how to prosecute trump for allegedly mishandling national security secrets while still keeping them secret. i want to bring in garrett haake who is following the elections. ken dilanian is inside the courthouse. paul butler is still with us. so garrett, everyone wants to know when this trial will happen. what are the chances we get that answer today? >> i can assure you no one wants to know answer more than i do. i think the chapss are reasonable that we'll get an answer today. we've seen filings from both parties about the date they would like to have this trial. the government's filing is pretty strong. they think there's no legal basis for donald trump to try to push this trial off indefinitely. they've suggested a december time frame should be enough to solve all the legal questions, particularly around how to use the classified material at the very heart of this case in a trial. of course, there is a political imperative that is the key thing. if you're donald trump, your best defense for this case may be to have it happen after you

win re-election. that's the hope. and then perhaps you can make this whole thing go away. that seem to be the way the government is handling mr. trump's filings in this matter. we'll see if it is persuasive or not to the trump-appointed judge who is handling this case. >> so you're there. what is happening at the courthouse right now? >> reporter: well, chris, the hearing will get underway in less than an hour. just a few moments ago, we saw the arrival of president trump's lawyers in the case. they have a black suv. they got out and walked up the steps of the courthouse. this is the first time that in a while that trump's legal team gets to stand off with prosecutors and have an argument in front of a judge here. as garrett said, they are going to debate and argue about the issue of scheduling. it's not clear that judge cannon will make a ruling on that today but she did instruct both sides to be ready to talk about it. and the other thing they'll hash out and discuss, this will be an ongoing process. the use and the rules around the

classified information in this trial. remember, there are 31 classified documents laid out in that indictment. they're not described in detail. and there is some question about whether, for example, the government will ever want the jury to see the full unredacted version. whether donald trump and his legal team will get to see that. these are national defense secrets, after all. the big question is whether we get any indication today about how judge cannon is feeling about this hugely divergent view. donald trump's team wants to postpone this trial until after the presidential election. jack smith is ready to go to trial as soon as december. that may slip. but sort of, the speedy trial rules and will the normal ways federal trials proceed indicates that this should go to trial within a year. donald trump has other ideas. we may learn more about what is happening without regard today. >> and i want to let you go to the courtroom. and obviously, anything that happens there, if you can get in

front of a camera, we're on for the next hour and 45 minutes. thank you. so paul, we know trump's side is claiming it won't have enough time to prepare for a december trial. that it would be unfair to disrupt his campaign for president. the prosecution says that the complicated nature of the trial is a reason to start earlier rather than delay. do you have a sense who has the better argument here? at least tell us what judge cannon will consider before deciding. >> hopefully, she'll rule that running for president is not a defense in a criminal trial including to showing up for a court date. i think it is revealing that trump released the news of this target letter for january 6th on today, the day of his hearing in the mar-a-lago case. i think he may be trying to deflect from today's hearing. once again, his lawyers will focus more on delaying the trial than on any substantive defense. i think it is clear that trump's

lawyers are already slow-dragging this case. as of last week, only two of trump's lawyers had even applied for security clearances, which take at least a month to process. >> so let's shift to the other big issue that we've been talking about. how to handle classified documents. ostensibly, the reason for this hearing. what are the biggest questions in front of judge cannon here? >> so there's a federal law called the classified information procedures act that lays out the rules for how sensitive materials are handled at trial. the parties and the jury get to see it but they can't publicly discuss what is in the record. so when you have these top secret classified documents, there are not only concerns about them becoming public but also concerns about how the defendant and in this case, donald trump will use these documents. so the judge has already wagged his finger, the magistrate judge

has wagged his finger at the former president saying you have to be really careful. you can only look at these documents if your lawyers are in the room. the other interesting relationship with timing here is that if trump is indicted in d.c., in the january 6th case, that trial could happen before the mar-a-lago trial. the federal courts in miami and d.c. could work together in terms of scheduling. and the d.c. case wouldn't involve those complicated national security issues that require security clearances for all the lawyers and that special handling of documents and other evidence. so d.c. could go to trial a lot quicker than mar-a-lago. >> as if all that isn't enough, i want to ask but a development in georgia. the state supreme court rejected trump's efforts to throw out d.a. willis' decision on election interference. and that decision came from a

court of mostly trump appointees. what else do you make of this decision? >> the only surprising thing is how quickly the ruling was handed down. trump's defense team had offered several ground zero in trying to get fanny willis disqualified and to get that special grand jury's evidence thrown out. the georgia supreme court unanimously rejected all of them. again, i think the signals first the complete lack of merit in trump's complaints about willis's investigation. and second, that judges are on to trump's typical strategy of endlessly filing motions to try to delay court proceedings where he faced risk. so in just a short time we'll find out when judge eileen cannon is also on to that strategy. >> thank you both so much. coming up next, we'll head to capitol hill.

members of congress are reacting to the target letter. you're watching "chris jansing reports" only on msnbc. reports" only on msnbc e same ai-powered security that protects all of google also defends these services for everyone who lives here. ♪ when the murrays discovered gain scent beads, they fell in love with the irresistible scent. ♪ ♪ huh, huh, so did their dog roger. ♪ ♪ gain scent beads keep even the stinkiest stuff smelling fresh. my a1c was up here; now, it's down with rybelsus®. his a1c? gain scent beads it's down with rybelsus®. my doctor told me rybelsus® lowered a1c better than a leading branded pill and that people taking rybelsus® lost more weight. i got to my a1c goal and lost some weight too. rybelsus® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes.

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we've got one hope. a bomb. 4... 3... 2...1... they just fired a starting gun. on capitol hill, the scene of the january 6th attack, we're hearing from lawmakers about former president trump being a target in the fregs into efforts to overturn the 2020 election. ultimately close to every member of congress. especially those who will be running in 2024 will be asked

about it. and it could be tricky to navigate for those in swing districts. jonathan is back with me and ali is on the hill. what are we hearing from republicans? >> this is something we've seen republican lawmakers react to before. it is pretty stunning. nevertheless, that's the environment that we're in right now. and lawmakers are reacting to this potential news of legal trouble for trump much as they've reacted in cases of past indictments, defending the former president and rushing to see the ways in which they can dismiss this as political. listen. >> absolute bull [ bleep ]. this is the only way the democrats have to beat president trump is to arrest him, smear him, charge him with ridiculous charges. >> why are they doing everything they can to prevent him from being on the ballot in 2024? i'll tell you why. because trump will win in 2024 and the left is scared.

>> i guess under a biden administration, you would expect this. if you noticed, president trump went up in the polls and was actually surpassing president biden for re-election. what do they do now? weaponize government to go after their number one opponent. >> reporter: not entirely surprising to see the close allies of the former president, both marjorie taylor greene and he have opposed this. what we're watching is matt gaetz now saying he wants to introduce legislation that would defund the special counsel's investigation. we'll see if that actually has teeth here as lawmakers are finally back in this building. we'll have a chance to ask some of them. if you're a safe republican in a safe seat, you're jumping to the former president's defense. the others are not jumping. the more moderate members of the conference. >> that will be the fascinating

thing, isn't it? the divide. if you look at the polls, if you're a republican in a safe seat, you know how popular the former president is. >> at the same time, some of the presidential candidates have. there's a limit how much they can attack trump. and will those in the deep districts won't do so unless one or two is struck with a real crisis of conscience. let's remember, well over 100 of them voted to decertify joe biden's election in 2020. they were in on it. they were in on it. they won't suddenly change their minds now. it's a trickier one for those in the senate who have to represent an entire state. some deep red states will go along with it probably. we know who they are. others are in a bind. it is the swing district representatives. those who won biden districts in 2020 who will have a hard time navigating this. those are the ones the fellow

democrats are targeting on thing like the debt ceiling deal where they were trying to put them in an uncomfortable position. we'll see if they're able to do so again on this. odds are they'll try their best. there are those in the white house who feel like, you know, good economic numbers, more trouble for trump, some steady leadership on the world stage for biden. they know his poll numbers aren't great. they think they can turn it around. they like the contrast that trump will that gop nominee. >> what about the democrats on the hill? what are we hearing from them today? >> some predictability. and i don't mean that we're hearing from democrats who are celebrating. in fact, that's been far from the tone over the last few time that we've heard news of indictments regarding the former president. democrats have been careful to say this is just law enforcement responding to laws being broken and trump's own action. listen, for example, to some of the democrats we caught up to

today. i apologize. i thought we had that sound bite. many of the democrats we've spoken to today have all said this is something that they anticipated. they expected. all of the lawmakers here, not just democrats, but republicans as well, remember the year plus of investigating from the january 6th committee that really teased out a lot of these details that we're now seeing in this january 6th-related indictment, or rather, target letter from jack smith to former president trump. the idea of fake elector scheme. the way the committee itself over the course of multiple public hearings worked so hard to try to establish the mindset of the former president to talk to people who were talking to him in the critical days, weeks and months after he had lost the 2020 election. we know what some of those conversations look like because we watched the economy tease them out publicly. you have to imagine the doj it several was able to get further

and deep entire the president's orbit. people like former vice president mike pence who never spoke to the january 6th committee but did speak to the january 6th special counsel. all of that is really important. we have a pretty good idea the direction from which the doy and special counsel were coming at this in the first place. >> do we have any sense of internal discussions among democrats, and the white house as well, about how to play this on the campaign trail? >> reporter: i think for the time being it will be complete silence. president biden has said over and over and over that he doesn't want to see any perception of interference. it was the same refrain from his staff a few months ago. at the last trump indictment over the classified documents. that the tone was set from the very top. i broke the news that biden had issued directives, stern directills to everyone who works for him. campaign officials, the dnc. don't say a word. that will be the case this time

around, too. at least for a while. what i suspect will happen is, toward the end of this year, early next, as we start looking toward a general election campaign that may be a rematch between biden and trump. those rules will ease somewhat. i still don't think we'll hear from president biden himself directly talking going the case. at least it won't be planned. he's always good for the occasional inadvertent comment. i think some democratic surrogates, others in the party will be unmuzzled. they'll paint the broad contrasts between what trump did on january 6th, inspiring the riot at the capitol. we have heard democrats talk about that before, previous to last area's mid-terms. contrast that to the leadership of president biden. i think it will be silence for now and then an evolving message as election day nears. >> jonathan, ali, thank you both so much.

we just got some video we want to show you from florida. this is outside the courthouse where donald trump's co-defendant is, as you can see, getting out of the suv. and walt nauta is going to go into that courthouse whereas you'll recall, the two things that the judge is looking at. the timing. will this trial start before or wait until after the 2024 election, and how will they handle classified documents? so we were told that neither nauta nor trump needed to be there but walt nauta has arrived. we'll keep an eye on that courthouse. meantime, president biden will have his first chance to react to the target letter news any minute now. he holds a bilateral with israel's president. we'll head to the white house right after the break. t after t. n for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv

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multiple chances for the white house to respond to the news about former president trump. the white house press briefing is expected to begin any moment now. joining me now, nbc news white house correspondent, mike, what if anything are you hearing from folks at the white house? >> well, let me tick off the list of nonresponses we're getting from the white house, from his campaign today. the president during this opportunity with the israeli president was asked a number of questions. he did not answer any about the

former president. did he appear to mouth yes when asked if he was concerned about the safety of that u.s. service member who of course was detained in north korea at the moment. we're also watching the vice president at the moment. she's speaking live as we speak to a group of state attorneys general that includes, i should mention, new york attorney general letisha james. she's talking about fentanyl but she'll likely be asked about these legal developments. the white house is referring all questions to the justice department. i reached out to the biden campaign as well as the democratic national committee. all of them keeping their hands off this situation. you can understand why, chris. this is obviously a legal situation and they are very mindful on the biden team about the appearance of meddling in those legal affairs. especially the activities of the justice department. the white house has insisted there is a real fire wall between the two to ensure that there is not the kind of political interference, of

course, that the former president and many of his allies on capitol hill and the republican party are alleging. so we are mindful of the fact the president himself has only one special counsel probe into his handling of classified documents. so it is all the more reason why they are very careful in where they choose to weigh in on these matters. this meeting that the president is having, on any other news day, we would be talking quite a bit about giving the importance but also the attention surrounding the u.s.-israeli relationship at the moment. president herzog of israel in washington where he'll address congress tomorrow, tied to the 75th anniversary of the state of israel coming into existence. yesterday the white house reading out for the first time, president biden spoke to the new prime minister, relatively new. not so new, actually, because it's been some time between conversations between president biden and prime minister netanyahu. there's some tension in that relationship having to do with the prime minister's efforts to impose some significant legislative reforms to the

judicial system in israel. that came up as we understand from this conversation publicly between the president, between the two presidents here. interestingly, as the white house did confirm that there will be a meeting between prime minister netanyahu and president biden at some point this year. they're not stating when or even if it will occur at the white house. so underscoring the diplomatic pressures in that relationship at the moment. >> thank you so much. appreciate it. and still ahead, how donald trump's rivals for the republican nomination are reacting to the news. the former president is now a target in the special counsel's january 6th investigation. you're watching "chris jansing reports" only on msnbc. reports" only on msnbc

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♪ what a wonderful world. ♪ ask your doctor about once-daily trelegy for asthma - because breathing should be beautiful. today's news that donald trump has been named a target of the january 6th investigation might have been used as an opening for his political opponents. but here's how ron desantis reacted when asked about it. >> criminal charges is not just because you may have done something wrong. it is did you behave criminally? and i think what we've seen is an attempt to criminalize politics and to try to criminalize differences. so i don't know what was all about that. i do know that we look at institutions, unfortunately, like our own fbi and department of justice and we've seen the politicalization of those institutions. >> so no criticism of trump. and then before the trump news

even broke, the 2024 race was still absorbing nbc's interview with senator joe manchin at a no labels event in new hampshire saying he won't decide on whether to plounlt a third party presidential run until next year. if the former president's campaign is damaged, what does that mean for the message? this was ahead of no labels on the possibility of backing a third party candidate. again, before news of this letter naming trump a target came out. >> the one moment this could be possible. why not give people a choice if they don't want these two choices? >> nbc's von hilliard is following the race in new hampshire. also, the chief strategist for the 2004 bush campaign and a senior msnbc analyst. good to see you guys. so you spoke at that no labels event. what did he tell you? is there any chance this changes the messaging for the

organization, for john huntsman? give us the lay of the land now. >> reporter: it has been suggested to me that this makes it all the more likely that you have a no labels presidential ticket come 2024 because of what nancy jacobson, the leader of no labels, in that interview that you saw part of there, told me they will come about next april when they have their convention. they'll decide whether to go forward with this ticket. and it is primarily on the basis that a majority of americans do not want donald trump running for president again or joe biden running for president. the data bears that out. the question is, who are, who would the candidates be? joe manchin? joe huntsman? take a listen to our exchange. >> are you taking it off the table? >> we're not taking anything off the table. >> reporter: so how will you decide to run? >> i'm not running. it will be next year. >> reporter: could a bipartisan ticket actually work?

>> i think eventually there could be that possibility. once the american people are frustrated enough with the status quo that isn't working. that will be driven by the american people. >> reporter: is 2024 that opportunity? >> i don't know. don't know. >> reporter: you can hear it in john level of questioning on his own part. this is a serious operation. we should note. a $70 million effort to get no labels presidential ticket on the ballot. while there are the question marks around donald trump and the criminal trials that await him, at the same time, this is an organization that is dark money operated. we do not know the donors. no labels, is not revealing where their source of income is coming from. >> and you pressed -- >> reporter: i did press him on that. it's a question mark. >> where's this money coming from, and they wouldn't say? >> reporter: that's right, they registered as a political party

in several states now, under the law, republican party and democratic parties do, they release their donors. but that is not no labels is operating. and they've filed a complaint with the arizona secretary of state's office to remove them off of the presidential ballot next year on that very basis. nancy jacobson says we're doing nothing nefarious. there are a lot of skeptical, not only democrats, but republicans i've talked to that question who may be putting millions of dollars behind this motive of what is important. the presidential campaigns of joe biden and those allied by donald trump are concerned about the potential siphoning off of votes by their nominees. and 2020, it was 42,000 votes that separated joe biden and donald trump between georgia, wisconsin and arizona. the stakes are high with no labels. right now, it's what candidates

th will put in that. >> the stakes are high, michael. what do you put into this, not only the fact they say don't want to be a spoiler. but jacobson repeatedly declined to give a metric on anything involved in whether to run or stand down. politically, do you believe that there is a lane here and it couldn't be a lane, that ultimately, as some people theorize, could put donald trump back in the white house? >> well, to me, the only lane they're operating in is the ego lane. and there's really no metric in as vaughn has laid out numerous different times, there's really no metric available right now that show the path for a no labels-type candidate to succeed in this moment. i'm all for multiparties in this country. i think we benefit from this. but i think the american public looks at this as a very dark choice between a party led by biden which say pro-democracy

party and stay party led by donald trump which seems to be a pro-autocracy party. 80% of the country is satisfied making that choice. only 20% of the country dissatisfied with both candidates, simultaneously. and ultimately, next year and three months, going to make a choice about joe biden and donald trump. and the only thing, the only thing no labels can be is a spoiler at this point. not even a spoiler that gets what ross perot got in 1992, which was almost 20% of the vote. and he spent what was equivalent of what is a billion dollars tote, ross perot would spend what would be the equivalent of a billion dollars today to get 20 percent. they're a spoiler, if they nominate somebody like jon huntsman, it's going to hurt. >> 70 million is a long way from

1 billion. i'm confident about that. "the washington post" had a big headline calls joe manchin a gas fly. by lending his support to no labels, manchin is challenging biden's central pitch. by suggests the two parties are all too similar. do they have a point? >> well, it means that the two parties do not offer a stark choice. this is probably the starkest choice you could have in the direction of each party, on which way they want to take the country. as i said, it's really a democracy versus autocracy choice. and i can't think about joe manchin who is not liked by democrats who is not liked by republicans is going to appeal to people who dislike both choices, when people see the

choice ahead of them biden and trump if that's the way it's going to turn out, which is likely to turn out as probably one of the starkest choices in american history. >> i'm out of time but i have to ask you this, does this indictment, if, if it happens, move the needle? >> i don't think -- i think it's at best a neutral on the needle. last time we awe his indictments chris, it helped donald trump. i don't know if this will help donald trump, but i don't see right now it hurting him. >> matthew dowd, vaughn hill hillyard, great to have you both. we're moments away from the documents trial. what to watch for as donald trump pushes for a delay. ump puy - t heartburn acid prevention with just one pill a day. choose acid prevention. choose nexium.

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♪♪ we have a lot to cover in the second hour of "chris jansing reports" including right now. the first pretrial hearing in the case involving former president donald trump's

handling of classified documents. where a judge could decide whether that trial happens before or after the 2024 presidential election. the former president's aide and codefendant just arrived at the courthouse. we're there live. plus, we've confirmed with two federal law enforcement sources that special counsel jack smith has notified donald trump he's a target in the 2020 election interference probe. is another federal indictment against the former president on its way? our nbc news reporters are following all of the latest developments and we start in florida where the first pretrial hearing in the classified documents is set to get under way. nbc's julia ansley is following that for us, julia, what's the latest? >> reporter: well, chris, we expect now, it's 2:00 p.m., that pretrial date for the hearing, we expect jack smith and the defense going