hampshire. it's gonna be a state by state slog. we know that, not a national referendum or a vote in that regard at this stage. but he is still punching and that is a difference maker. >> michael steele, who often sits in for me on my show knows what i say. he has 20 seconds, he knows how to do 20 seconds. thanks to both of. you olivia troye and michael steele, we appreciate you now. that's all in on this tuesday night. you can watch velshi weekends, 10 am eastern, right here on msnbc. alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening my friend. >> thanks, ali. 20 seconds just on a cell hutchinson and chris christie is impressive, and all prospects. thank you, my friend, as always. and thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. today, for the first time since this federal investigation began lawyers for donald trump and prosecutors from special counsel jack smith's office, they appear to get together before judge aileen cannon in a florida courtroom. lawyers for trump argued the trial over miss mishandling of

classified documents at mar-a-lago, that trial should be pushed until after the 2024 election. federal prosecutors on the other hand want the trial to start this december. now, judge cannon did not make a decision on all that today, and we are gonna have much more on that story coming up. but even if judge cannon decides to delay this trial for these federal charges, for these federal charges, there is a good chance that no matter what donald trump will be standing in trial for at least some of federal charges before the end of this year. and that is because today, we learned that special counsel jack smith has made one of the most important and consequential decisions to date. it appears as if he is ready to charge donald trump and his attempt to overturn the 2020 election. now, getting to this point, getting to this decision, to pursue trump for his alleged criminal behavior is the

culmination of an extensive federal investigation, an investigation that was arguably kicked into high gear thanks to a decision made by speaker nancy pelosi two years ago. >> this morning, with great solemnity and sadness, i'm announcing that the house will be establishing a select committee on the january 6th insurrection. >> we know from reporting that speaker pelosi did not make that decision likely, that decision to go forward without the cooperation of the minority leader kevin mccarthy. democrats have tried to establish a bipartisan january 6th committee but leader kevin mccarthy said he would appoint trump loyalists to it, trump loyalists like election deniers, jim jordan and jim banks. and he wanted them to be on that panel. and ultimately, speaker pelosi decided to establish the committee on her own, without leader mccarthy's chosen

members. she picked seven democrats and two republicans for the task. and that house select committee would go on to produce one of the most detailed and explosive, and public accounts of what donald trump did in the lead up to the attack on the capitol. >> right out of the clock, on election night, the president claimed that there was major fraud underway. i mean, it's happened, as far as i could tell, before, there was actually any potential evidence. >> i told him that this stuff that has people were shoveling out to the public were horrible. i mean, the claims of fraud were both [bleep] -- >> with respect to attorney general barr, i accepted what he said. >> so, look, all i want to do is this, i just want to find 11,780 votes. >> there were no votes to find.

that was an accurate count that has been certified. >> he said something to the effect of, i don't want people to know we've lost, mark. this is embarrassing. figure it out. we need to figure it out. i don't want people to know that we lost. >> why did you decide to march to the capitol? >> basically, you know, the president got everybody round up, told everybody had on down. we basically just followed what he said. >> i remember said something to the effect of, i don't care if they have weapons. they're not here to hurt me. >> do you remember which crimes mr. cipollone was concerned with? >> in the days leading up to the sixth, we had conversations about potentially obstructing justice or defrauding the electoral count. >> after presenting all of that damning evidence and testimony, most of it on television, the january 6th committee came to a clear conclusion. >> trump did nothing to stop

the deadly violence for obvious reasons. he thought it was all justified. he incited it. and he supported it. >> we know from reporting that the january 6th committee's presentation lit a fire under the justice department. it was impossible to ignore. attorney general merrick garland had been prosecuting cases against many of the riders who joined on the capitol that day. but there was disagreement within the justice department about how much its investigation should focus on trump himself. but after the january 6th committee presented its case last summer and last fall, it was clear that trump's behavior warranted a federal criminal investigation. and while the january 6th committee was finishing up its final report, merrick garland made an announcement. >> i have concluded that it is in the public interest to appoint a special counsel. i strongly believe that the normal processes of this department handle all

investigations integrity. and i also believe that in appointing a special counsel at this time, it is the right thing to do. the extraordinary circumstances presented here demand it. >> and that brings us to the work of that special counsel today. we know that since jack smith's appointment, a grand jury has heard testimony about everything from trump's efforts to get mike pence to overturn the election, to the scheme to send a slate of fake trump electors to washington, d.c., to trump's intent, and whether or not he really thought the election was stolen, to whether trump was defrauding his donors with fake claims of election fraud, just to haul in cash. and that grand jury has heard from just an extraordinary number of witnesses. they heard from trump aides, like mitt luna and john mcentee. they heard from trump's closest advisers, including stephen miller, and dance camino. they heard from several of others trump's white house lawyers, like pat cipollone and pat philbin. and they heard from members of trump's inner circle, trump's

chief of staff, mark meadows, and trump's vice president, mike pence. smith's team in just eight short months has interviewed all of the key players in the effort to overturn the 2020 election, not simply those who would come forward themselves, but reluctant witnesses who had everything to lose, by testifying against a former president who aims to be president once again. and now, nbc news reports that donald trump himself is officially a target of the special counsel's investigation. trump today confirmed that he received a target letter from the special counsel's office, which almost certainly means that jack smith will bring federal charges against the 45th president for his efforts to overturn an american election. joining us now is a former member of that january 6th committee, someone who helped usher in this moment. congressman jamie raskin of maryland. congressman raskin, thank you for being here.

it's impossible to look at where we are today without remembering all of the work you and the committee did. what is your feeling, as we learn the news, that there is a likely federal criminal indictment coming down for the 45th president? >> well, i'm thinking about some of the people whose careers were permanently altered by these events. i'm thinking about my friend liz cheney, who was the third ranking person, i think, in a republican caucuses the chair of the republican congress, who ended up losing her seat because she stood up for the truth. i am thinking about elaine gloria, my colleague from virginia who lost her seat, after c stood up for the truth against the january 6th insurrection. adam kinzinger is no longer in congress right now. i mean, i am thinking up about a lot of the officers, too. i am thinking about sergeant gonell and immigrants to america from the dominican republic whose high school class came to visit the

capital. and he met some capitol police, and decided right then that he wanted to be a capitol officer one day. it was his dream job. and he was so injured and so badly wounded on january 6th that he was forced to leave the capitol police department. you know, a lot of people's lives have been changed. i read an article today about a woman whose name is pamela example, who at 69 years old, said that she swallowed all of the propaganda and the cultish brainwashing of donald trump and the big lie. and she ended up being convicted in spending a couple of months in jail. and donald trump started sending out messages about the 69-year-old grandma who was forced to go to jail, and attacking the deep state and all that. and she sends out a message saying i pled guilty because i was guilty. but she pledged that she would never believe anything that donald trump said ever again. so, i hope a lot of the maga

people are beginning to disengage from the thralldom of donald trump's spell that he cast over the republican party. >> i would love to talk to you about some of the charges that have been floated. we know that rolling stone tonight is reporting that they have had access, or a source has given them insight into what was in the target letter, the charges that may potentially come down for the former president. the first, it is conspiracy to commit offense or defraud the united states. the second is deprivation of rights under color of law. the third is tampering with a witness, a victim, or an informant. now, there is no mention of aiding and abetting and insurrection, which we know was one of the charges that the january 6th committee recommended. what is your feeling about that charge potentially not being in there? >> well i haven't been able to look specifically at what the charges are. so i should probably reserve any kind of final comment on that.

the fourth charge that we recommended was, aiding and abetting, and giving aid and comfort to insurrectionists, which donald trump definitely did, and continues to do to this very day. you recall that instead of acting as, you know, the commander in chief of the armed forces during the insurrection and leaping to the defense of the union, he did nothing. he sat on his hands until he started tweeting against mike pence, further inflaming the mob. and then, of course, he flattered them at the end of the day, saying, never forget this day, and calling them great patriots and heroes, which he's continued to do since that time. but, look, we talked about a number of things which do overlap, apparently, with what may be contained in these charges, including a conspiracy to obstruct and interfere with the federal proceeding, and the conspiracy to defraud the united states by bringing in counterfeit electors who

pretended as if they somehow had the legitimacy of state and federal law behind them when none of them did. and, you know i am just glad to see that with 741 criminal convictions already wrapped up by the department of justice, they are finally getting to the very center of the entire conspiracy because it was donald trump who changed the dates of all of these protests that have been called for january 20th, essentially those were statements that the maga people will continue to protest against biden and his presidency. but he shifted it from the 20th to the sixth, saying no, this is the date of the peaceful transfer of power. this is the last day we are able to stop this. all of it really floats out of his brainstorm that there could be an inside political coup and a violent insurrection taking place at the same time. a viol>> i mean, given the gravf what is alleged to have occurred here under trump's direction, and the fact that trump is running for the presidency again, the fact that

he has not been shy about suggesting he will pardon himself and other people involved in the january 6th coup plot, the fact that he plans to take over the doj, if he wins in 2024, and greatly expand executive power. it seems like the timing on this is of the essence. are you concerned that we are now, you know, edging upon primary season in a few months, and donald trump and his defense team are gonna give every excuse not to have any kind of trial before the presidential election. do you think the american people are gonna be seeing any resolution on this before november? >> we have been 741 convictions, as i was saying, alex. and there's plenty of time for these charges to be heard, for due process to be observed and for justice to be served. so, i think that has got to happen. the architects of the 14th amendment understood that people like donald trump needed

to be dealt with in a constitutional way, which is why section three of the 14th amendment says that anybody who swears an oath to uphold and defend the constitution against enemies foreign and domestic who violates that oath by engaging in insurrection or rebellion, shall never be allowed to hold federal or state office again. so, this is a matter, as you suggest, of great constitutional magnitude and dimension. and i would be shocked if judges late into donald trump's obvious efforts to delay and postpone proceedings until after the election. they should treat him like any other defendant. otherwise, it's basically a message to the criminals of america to file for office at some level, so you can keep permanently delaying their proceedings. >> to say nothing about the message that it sends about the republican party itself. congressman jamie raskin, former member of the january 6th committee, a man instrumental in this moment

that we are witnessing, current member of the house judiciary and oversight committee -- thank you so much, congressman, for your time tonight. >> thanks for having me, alex. >> we have a lot of news this evening, including new indictments over the plot to hand the 2020 election to trump in the state of michigan. but first, a very feisty hearing today in a florida courtroom for the other federal criminal case against donald trump -- what we learned about how and when that case is going to go to trial. that is coming up next. coming up next (mom) the moment i loved our subaru outback most... was the moment they walked away from it. (daughter) mom! (mom) oh, thank goodness. and that's why our family will only drive a subaru. (vo) subaru. more iihs top safety pick plus awards than any other brand.

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thing to a layperson like you or me, but what does it mean to a federal judge? today, that the federal judge overseeing trump's mar-a-lago classified documents case -- judge aileen cannon -- today, she took the first step and scheduling an actual trial for the former president. in a nearly two-hour hearing, lawyers for trump and his co defendant, walt nauta, faced off against lawyers from special counsel jack smith's office. the hearing was reportedly contentious as trump's defense team fought hard to delay the trial until after the 2024 election. the defense argued that the sheer volume of evidence in this case merited extra time

the. defense pointed to the 1.1 million pages of evidence produced by smith's team, including 1545 pages of classified evidence. and they pointed to the more than three years worth of surveillance footage that has been submitted as evidence. jack smith's team, the prosecution, counter that it has already pointed trump's lawyers to the specific evidence that actually matters here. in other words, the defense doesn't really need to watch three years of security camera footage. trump's defense team also argue that trump could not be tried fairly while he was running for president. unless they are arguing the trial should be pushed to next november. jack smith's team, on the other hand, once the trial to start this december. now, it's not exactly a secret that trump is likely to pardon himself if he wins the presidency again, and he's in office once the trial begins. so, the timing here is deeply consequential. but the hearing today ended without a decision from judge cannon, who said she would issue everton order promptly.

joining us now is our very own ari melber, the host of msnbc's the beat with ari melber and neil kept y'all -- neal katyal host of the podcast courtside with neal katyal -- ari melber and neal katyal, new to better giants than to speak -- because of your -- adverbs -- >> -- >> not generally, but in this case. >> if you are someone asked to take up the trash properly -- >> -- tonight could be end of the week. >> it could be when you get to it. it's a great question, alex, because words in the law have technical meaning sometimes, and other times they have capacious or open meetings. >> yeah. >> this is definitely the latter. it could be a minute, could be a little while, she can take her time. but i think we would expect to get this written ruling in the near term. >> what does that mean? like, this week? >> yeah, under two weeks. again, she might be on the path of really about to do it in a couple days and again, as a judge, and she can go back to

chamber, she can double check something, someone can raise something. but we are not documents. we are going to get this answered. we are gonna get a real preview and i would say that there is a problem for trump's team and that they are now making the argument, judge, there's so much classified stuff and their security clearances and this is such a process, so we need more time. i thought your boy declassified all the stuff in his mind. i thought nothing was classified. and so, to be clear with viewers, that is not going to be a legal issue at trial -- >> they're just saying -- >> it just speaks to, i think the finest and the idiocy of some of the defendants kind of made up, it's a nice way to put it, or blatant lies in his defense. ultimately, his lawyers are entitled to make many arguments on his behalf. but it is a reminder that they have a problem. and then the second thing, you don't need to be a lawyer. you're so confident of winning. let's get going. this is the legal version of, we all know somebody like this, hold me back if you let me fondue, and then if you let him

fight, they can't, and they don't want to fight. that's a bit of what we are seeing here. yes and the tampa bravado. >> all right, too neal, it's not a secret that today we got news that trump received a target letter from the doj. do you think that that factors in at all to the judge's deliberation about the timing of her own federal trial? >> i don't. i think that there are two separate things, obviously, if there is an indictment, as i suspected, or almost certainly will be against donald trump in washington, d.c. for january 6th, judge cannon is gonna have to work it out with that other judge for trial schedules because you have an absolute right to be present as a criminal defendant in your own trial. and so, you'll have to be both of them. but basically, alex, i think this whole kind of trump delay tactic is bordering on absurd. i mean, donald trump is absolutely picking up on something ari said, entitled to a presumption of innocence and

all the other rights the criminal defendants have beyond reasonable doubt, a unanimous jury has to convict him. if one juror says he is innocent, he can't go to jail, all of that he gets. you don't get some special right because you were the former president or because you are running for office. and you certainly, like, nobody gets a one and a half year trial delay. i mean, give me a break. and trump's rationale which is the mar-a-lago case is so complicated that he can't be tried for a year and a half is just bizarre because it's like all of a sudden, magically, the complications seemed to dissolve right around november of 2024 -- excuse me, mid november 2024. i have never seen any sort of, and i handle all sorts of complicated legal cases. i've never seen one which has, like, a magic sell by date, which is not complicated enough after a presidential election. i mean, the whole thing just smacks some absurdity.

and you know, and ari is exactly right, this guy trump is saying, i'm innocent, i did nothing wrong, if you so much believe that, then go prove it up in a court of law. you are getting a chance now. >> i mean, speaking of this sincerity of the defense, ari, is there anything to the amount of material that the defense has to sift through, right? they are citing 1.1 million pages of search warrants and info, and evidence, and witnesses, and a grand jury transcripts. and three and a half years of security camera footage. is there any credence to that as reason for a delay? >> i mean, there is a version, proportionate credence that you said, you're not gonna do this in a week. this is a misdemeanor trial -- miss demeanor proceeding. other than that, no, as neal said, while the case does have some complexity and government rules that have to be adhered to, i don't think it would take nearly as long as i would say. and as i emphasize, they kind

of embarrassment of today is that we are seeing the great care that the system is supposed to take with these documents. and his own lawyers and now the whole system are doing steps to give the care that he allegedly did not in the mar-a-lago bathroom. >> right, all the clearance, procedures necessary to look at the documents he had in the bathroom. neal katyal, please don't go anywhere. ari mueller, stay right here, we have so much more to discuss between this and the mar-a-lago documents case, an investigation into the election interference of georgia, and the case against trump in new york, and now more special counsel charges. the list goes on. we will be right back. ♪ ♪ ♪ wouldn't qualify for an erc tax refund. you should get a second opinion from innovation refunds at no upfront cost. sometimes you need a second opinion. [coughs] good to go. yeah, i think i'll get a second opinion. all these walls gotta go! ah ah ah! i'd love a second opinion. no. i'm going to get a second opinion. with innovation refunds, there's no upfront cost to find out.

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tonight. but there is a piece of reporting that cannot get out of my head. as we wait for a likely charging decision from the special counsel's investigation into trump's attempts to overturn the 2020 election which, yes, we know, could come as early as the end of this week, ari melber -- and as we wait for fulton county da fani willis and her potential indictment of trump for election-related charges in the state of georgia, charges that, by the way, are likely to come at the beginning of next month, and as we wait for the judge in trump's mar-a-lago classified documents case to set a trial date promptly -- as we wait for all of that, which is a lot of waiting -- i cannot stop thinking about all this. last, week in the new york times reporting on the special counsel's mar-a-lago case, a source familiar with the matter told the times that jack

smith's team has not just been asking questions about mar-a-lago, but about other trump own properties in florida, like trump's golf clubs in doral and jupiter. so, even with all of this on his plate, jack smith is still investigating. we could have even more indictments, potentially even superseding indictments against existing defendants still to come. how do all of these cases lined up with each other? and what exactly is the order of operations here? there is no better person to ask that the two genes i have tonight, ari melber host of msnbc's the beat with ari melber, and neal katyal, of course, former acting solicitor general for the obama administration. neal, the calendar seems very full already. -- october of this year is the new york a.g.'s civil fraud case of -- march of next year's alvin bragg's to trial for the hush money probe. there is an unknown trial date for mar-a-lago, and potentially a trial set that will be set in

fani willis's investigation into trump's role in the 2020 election results in her state and then, of course, the special counsel probe, january 6th, a potential trump indictment. how is this all going to work, neal? >> so, it's definitely a full calendar, alex, as you said, and it's because donald trump, sure, appears to have violated multiple different criminal laws in multiple different jurisdictions. and our law doesn't really generally deal with someone who is this much of a serial offender. so, what is going to happen is the judges are going to have to work it out among themselves. it's probably two federal judges, one in d.c., and a judge aileen cannon in florida, as well as a potential indictment in georgia and a certain one that his already happened in manhattan. and there is also the possibility of another federal indictment in new jersey, at bedminster, for that conduct. so, all of this is going to have to be coordinated. and we have not even mentioned

-- i think there is a new e. jean carroll trial that is going to take place in new york that is going to take place sometime next year as well. so, there is a lot of different litigation activities, and criminal ones, as i said before, trump has to be at. and so these do have to all get coordinated. and trump's plan is to try to delay them all -- all of them -- until after the november 24 election. that is just not going to hold water. i can't imagine that judges are going to go for that. it just seems like a transparent attempt to try and delay and possibly squash the prosecution with a republican income to get ministration that orders the prosecutions dropped. >> but neal, can i just ask, in terms of the pecking order here -- i was talking with laetitia james, the new york a.g., a couple of weeks ago, and she suggested that if the federal indictment on january 6th came down anytime soon, that she would adjourn her case and that alvin bragg and fani willis might adjourn those as well, i guess, in deference to the federal case which --

you know, federal cases traditionally go first. you think something like that is in the works? >> absolutely. i think that would make a lot of sense. obviously, they would all have to agree and so on, but the magnitude of the charges that jack smith is looking at on january 6th go to the heart of what the american government is all about. you cannot have a person as head of the executive branch who is -- >> we are going to come back to, you neal, if we get your shot back up. but ari, in terms of the magnitude of what we already know -- and, by the way, the investigations that continue -- i can't get out of -- as i said, i can't get out of my head the idea that mar-a-lago is not even over yet. they are still interviewing witnesses in front of the grand jury. there is a suggestion of other documents being stored at two other golf clubs. the saga continues. and one wonders at what point -- i guess, how tenable it is from the perspective of the courts,

to have all of these multiple federal cases as -- you know, trump points out, he is running for president and there are state charges against him as well. >> yet, tonight we are talking about the prospect of three cases. it could be more. this is a gangster type of problem. this is not a problem most people have. i am reminded of, and i'm sure you are -- loyd who worked with mob deep -- >> whenever you make a mob deep reference -- >> that's right -- in the 90s -- but he, said i've got three different faces facing three different cases, manhattan, queens, and brooklyn, the way things is looking, i'm going to see central booking. and the idea is if you are going to face that much heat you might be in a case there or be a case there. if you have too many cases -- if you caught that many cases, you eventually are going to run out of lock and get convicted, at least that's how i interpret noise bars and to apply to donald trump in -- you like your odds of finding one juror, right? -- the burden is not on, you have to find one juror. well -- and then another and another. >> exactly.

and so, it is expected that lower courts -- state courts -- would differ, particularly to an indictment about stealing the election and a coup, right, if we get that, and trump has been targeted for a guy that -- >> i think the pressure will stay on him. i would not expect a criminal case to be completely dropped, although it might go to the backburner of what is a bunch of -- >> last in line -- >> big stove -- it might be very well down the road. and then the question, the republican party, we've heard over and over, oh, they can handle this, that in the other -- but there comes a time if you have three plus cases, any expectation that your nominee could actually be convicted before the election, then things change. and when things change, they can change fast. >> i do wonder -- it seems like jack smith -- like, we are beginning to see, a sort of modus operandi which is, it seems clear that mar-a-lago goes on. other witnesses are testifying. there could be charges unrelated to donald trump in that case forthcoming. we know that, on thursday, a trump advisor is expected to -- before the grand jury that has

been hearing his january 6th investigation. he may be ruling out the trump indictments first with charges for other actors in the days and weeks to come. so -- >> -- >> if you haven't heard about rudy giuliani catching a charge yet, you might in the weeks and days to -- >> i think that's a great point you raised, which goes to the fact that so many people have been willing to even do timeframe. we saw that with weisselberg in the financial case. with some of these people would be looking at much longer periods of time. and then if you have a case that -- convicted before the election, and you lose the election, you have more cases after, then no one has any incentive to defend you then. >> all right. it's a story very much still being written. neal katyal, thank you for your time tonight. oh, there you are. you are back. thank, you neal, i can thank you in person for your wisdom. ari melber, a thank you, my friend. neal has a very timely episode of his courtside podcast out right now, about how to prosecute a former president -- of, that is coming out tomorrow, my apologies. ari melber has a very important

show that he has every night. >> hey -- >> six pm eastern -- thank you for your time tonight -- still to come, tonight, republican presidential hopefuls react to the news that the guy who is beating them in the polls may be about to be indicted for a third time this year. that is third as in three. plus, these republican party activists who tried to -- the state capitol to act in 2020 to serve as electors for donald trump, they are now under indictment themselves. we are going to get the latest on the fake electors up next. rs up next i will be a travel influencer... hey, i thought you were on vacation? it's too expensive. use priceline, they've got deals no one else has. what about work? i got you. looking great you guys! ♪ go to your happy price ♪ ♪ priceline ♪ [music “this little light of mine”] in the world's poorest places, children with cleft conditions live in darkness and shame. ♪ go to your happy price ♪ they're shunned, outcast, living in pain.

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try nervive. as part of the orchestrated and, try nervive pain relieving roll-on. planned, we allege that 16 michigan residents met covertly in the basement of gop headquarters and knowingly, and of their own volition, signed their names to multiple certificates of stating that they were the duly elected and qualified electors for president and vice president of the united states of america for the state of michigan. that was a lie. >> michigan attorney general dana nassar today, announcing felony charges against 16 michigan republicans who falsely claimed to be the states presidential electors back in 2020. all part of a plot aimed at keeping donald trump in office. now, this marks the first time

that any fake electors have been charged with a crime or later the scheme. versions of this all took place in the battleground state of georgia, nevada, new mexico, arizona, pennsylvania, and wisconsin. all these electors in michigan are charged with is very serious stuff. these michigan fake electors are each facing eight criminal fell o.g. charges including forgery and conspiracy to commit election law forgery. they carry penalties ranging from 5 to 14 years in prison for each charge. that is likely that other states have their eyes on this case, because down in georgia, fulton county d.a. fani willis is also investigating the fake electors near state. so far, miss willis has struck immunity deals with at least nine of the 16 fake electors in georgia and she's expected to announce criminal charges, potentially against their remaining electors and perhaps even against donald trump next month. meanwhile, officials in arizona announced last week that they are investigating the fake

electors in their state and then, of course, at the federal level jack smith appears to be wrapping up his own investigation into the 2020 election, for which he has reportedly interviewed state officials in all seven states where republicans put forward those fake electors. joining us now is tim -- the former u.s. attorney for the western district of during, he's also lead investigator for the house january 6th committee. tim, it's great to see you, thank you for being here tonight. i guess my first question is, in terms of the fake elector, the decision to charge these fake electors, how significant is this and how do you see this potentially influencing or affecting other investigation at the state level and it is fake electors plots? >> look, i think it is significant but it is not new. the select committee identified this plot and is the essential facts of the fake electors scheme in michigan another state bag during our hearings in our report. we developed evidence, for

example, from the chairman of the republican party of michigan who, when presented with this idea of alternate electors, fake electors, said we cannot do that. when presented with the ideas that these electors need to be in the state capital according to state law, on the 14th, distorted by the fake electors and they were proposing to spend the night in the capitol before that in order to assure they would be there the next day, she said that crazy, you cannot do that. there's evidence that we developed a very specific -- that these electors were told that this is unlawful, there's no basis for purporting that these are official, certified electors. yet, they went ahead and convened and issue those fake documents. it is significant in that it is another manifestation of the plot. this is just one part of a multi stage plot, but it is not new because this information has been out there for a long time. >> to that and, the michigan

attorney general dana nessel said that she effectively reopened this probe in january because, up until that point, she had been deferring to the federal investigation but sort of didn't know what was happening there, so basically moved forward again on her own. do you think that the news that jack smith's investigative team has been also moving forward and parallel on the vague electors plot complicates this in any way? how do you see this hand and glove, or the coordination or any cooperation between the state agencies who are running with the fake electors plot and the feds who are also investigating the same thing? >> i don't think there's been any coordination and i think that has been intentional. i think the department of justice has done this investigation on its own, it is not coordinated with state attorney general, with that dna in georgia, with the district attorney in new york or anywhere else. they didn't coordinate with the select committee either. we turned over to them all of

our transcripts, documents, upon the completion of our work. they then used that information to inform their investigation, but to be clear the department has pursued this independently. not coordinating with other prosecutors or congressional committees or anyone else, but rather learning these facts on their own. if they do proceed with fake electors as part of a jan six indictment, which seems likely, it's unclear what happens to the michigan case. it might sit and wait for the resolution of the federal case, it might proceed on a parallel track. there are violations of state law as well, as potentially violations of federal statutes. there could be concurrent prosecutions, but to be clear, alex, this is not a master plan where -- what are we gonna bring, the justice department is doing this on their own. >> apologies if i suggested it wasn't any way a master plot, i think it is a hard for folks to

understand that everybody is talking to the same people but they are not coordinating with each other, in the way that you point out the special counsel's -- and very much the states are to. there is no coordination there. i do wonder, because it looks as a fani willis is ready to hand down an indictment, or ready to bring in indictment against donald trump for his role in the georgia fake electors plot, or the efforts to swing the election in her state, is there anything stopping the arizona a.g., or the michigan a.g. from issuing their own charges against donald trump given that one state agent is? >> no, there's nothing stopping them from issuing separate indictments to specifically correspond to the individuals in the indoor states. the jan sixth federal case, however, seems like the umbrella if president trump himself and other sort of senior campaign officials or lawyers instigated this plan in multiple states, than they have exposure in all of those states,

as well as the federal case. you could see overlap in the fani willis indictment if it is issued and it involves fake electors and what jack smith is looking, at because this is not unique. the georgia story is not unique, the michigan story is not unique. all the states that you named earlier were all essentially consistent. this is washington consistent expert to generate fake electors as one part of this multi step plot to prevent the transfer of power. >> tim, just looking at the magnitude of the legal dragnet, just the size of the dragnet that is hanging over the former president's head, it is astounding. given your granular understanding of all of this, does it surprise you that you are seeing so much action at the federal and state level in and around january six? >> no, alex. the facts is what is driving this. early in this light committees investigation it was pretty obvious to us that those facts were pretty compelling. the facts were pretty consistent, the facts

demonstrated criminal conduct, that is what the select committee ultimately recommended and the manifestations of that are what you are seeing both with respect to the activity coming out of the special counsel's office, the target letter and these indictments, but it is all essentially reaffirming that essential truth that this was a criminal scheme. >> i can imagine it's reaffirming for someone on the inside, for as long as you have been. tim, it was great to speak with you, thanks for making the time tonight. >> when we come back, what happens when the person you're running against in a presidential election is indicted on criminal charges, and then is indicted again, and he has maybe again? a strange reactions at the republican 2024 candidates coming up. coming up.

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we've got one hope. ask your asthma specialist a bomb. 4... 3... 2...1... they just fired a starting gun. if the past is any indicator of what could happen next in the trump chronicles, the target letter he received this leak is likely a preview to another indictment and that indictment mairead will be a prelude to another bump in the polls. recall that trump saw a ten point increase among in the republican voters following the indictment in the hush money case in march. and you saw a five point bump again among republican voters after his indictment in the mar-a-lago classified documents case this june. so, that math is making things difficult, if not decidedly awkward, among trump's

opponents in the 2024 presidential race. here's how they reacted to the news today of another possible trump indictment. >> we need a new generational leader, we cannot keep dealing with a straw, that we can't keep dealing with the negativity, we can't keep dealing with all of. this >> i hope he doesn't get charged, i don't think it will be good for the country. but, at the same time, i've got to focus on looking forward. >> history will hold him to account for his actions that today. with regard to the prospect of an indictment i hope it does not come to that. >> i intend to win, but i want to win by convincing voters of why they should vote for me, not by having the federal police state eliminate by competition. >> i still believe that the doj is in fact weaponizing the tools of our country against their political opponents. >> only two republican candidates dared to take on trump. asa hutchinson who hinted that trump should suspend his campaign and former governor chris christie who barely passes up an opportunity to

offer criticisms of the man he once endorsed for president. christine hutchinson are polling at 2.3% and 0.8% respectively, in the current average of recent polls. that is our show for tonight, now it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening lawrence. >> good evening lawrence, we have andrew weissmann joining us tonight and the show does not traffic in very many predictions anymore, especially since i very confidently predicted in 2015 that donald trump would not be the republican nominee. we really, really slow down the prediction process here after that. but, andrew weissmann's legal predictions in what is coming for donald trump have been flawless. and he has been telling us that jack smith is going to move on the january six indictment front. now we have the target