♪♪ good to be with you, i'm katy tur. former trump aide william russell is in a d.c. courtroom testifying before jack smith's grand jury. russell is a curious case. we know he was with donald trump on january 6th for at least a little bit of time. here he is with the former president in the tent at the ellipse where donald trump told the crowd to march on the capitol. what was said in the tent before and after the speech was a big part of the house january 6th investigation. but russell was never interviewed by the january 6th committee according to a source

familiar who spoke with our lisa rubin. we know of three appearances before the grand jury that russell has now made, including today. we do not know what his testimony will yield exactly, whether jack smith has anything more from him that maybe the january 6th committee did not, we did just find out a telling detail about what he is being asked about. the news from the courthouse in a moment, beyond that, though, we are left with the road map from the target letter. and on that note, we also have news. clarity from the "new york times" on what the civil rights statute could mean, and how it could be used to essentially argue that donald trump violated the constitutional rights of a voter or a group of voters. at the same time, republicans are building more than just a defense of donald trump. some are trying to rewrite history. there's a movement to expunge his impeachments in the house. why some worry that calling a

vote on those expungements, i guess, is doomed to fail. joining me now nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent, ken dilanian, and nbc news senior legal correspondent, laura jarrett. >> expungements you're laughing. >> that's not a thing. let's talk about what ryan reilly reported a moment ago, the news from the d.c. courthouse where we learned what william russell was being asked by the special counsel's team, something we do not usually hear unless we hear it directly from a witness. >> that's right, high drama at the courthouse unfolding even as we're talking, katy. stan woodward, who is the lawyer for russell, this young aide who followed donald trump even after he left the white house, and has been before the grand jury before, mr. woodward had a sentencing in an unrelated

january 6th case that he was scheduled to be at, and he was late, and the judge asked him why he was lately. he was reluctant to talk about it. you're not supposed to grand jury grand jury -- discuss grand jury marries. now, the judge trevor mcfadden was not happy about this. he made a joke, said something like talk about obstructing an official proceeding in reference to one of the charges that may be on the table in this case, and now he has asked a federal marshal to fetch the prosecutors from the special counsel's office who are running the grand jury session to come to his courtroom and explain why mr. woodward was late. that's all very interesting. but what's germane to this case that we care so much about in terms of the potential indictment of the former president is here you have this aide who had close proximity to donald trump in the lot of situations, clearly being asked

about matters that pertain to conversations with the president. >> that judge keeps a tight timetable clearly. laura, let's talk about the news that you just came up with, or found out, that donald trump has now hired another lawyer. explain. >> we have talked at length about how the former president needs help. he is facing a litany of different cases in a litany of jurisdictions and we have confirmed with our colleague from wnbc, jonathan dienst, that he has added john morrow, somebody who brings legal heft, he has experience. he's a former federal prosecutor, in private practice, familiar with trump world. he has represented trump's own attorneys, christina bob. he knows these cases, he knows the facts. the only issue is one of timing. we believe the investigation is reaching a conclusion. there's obviously still witnesses in the grand jury, and there's issues clearly to be

worked out on executive privilege, but he needed this. he needed to add someone, it's just late in the game. >> can we also talk about rudy giuliani, and what his interactions with the special counsel has been. >> i think there's some question about what exactly was going on there. we knew that we had had previous reporting that he had gone in to do a proper session where essentially you tell all and all you have to do is make sure you don't lie and the government can't prosecute you for what you say. there were questions about whether he was cooperating, we knew he hadn't received a target letter. there's more to come on the giuliani piece of this. we know he's met with the special counsel's office. >> william russell, what he's saying to the grand jury. i'm going to ask ken first. does this push the time line for when the president could be

indicted? do we have an idea when this might happen if it does happen? >> i don't think it's going to happen this week. but this will russell appearance appeared to be a bit of a clean up. he had been there before. if they're having a dispute about executive privilege that may have to be litigated that may push the timetable. it felt like will russell was being called to patch a hole, maybe somebody in the justice department reviewing jack smith's actions asked a question about a bit of testimony they needed to button up. if in fact, executive privilege is going to be argued about, and may have to go to a higher court, then absolutely that could hold things up. >> it's an odd fight to have. if his conversations with the former vice president and mark meadows and dan scavino, and robert o'brien, are not protected by the executive privilege, as courts up and down the d.c. circuit have found, how are his conversations with will russell, the junior aide protected by privilege. we don't know what question he

was asked to trigger that. it seems odd this late in the game to have that argument. >> how do we reconcile he was never interviewed by the january 6th committee, which we thought did a thorough job, yet has now appeared multiple times in front of jack smith. >> federal prosecutors want to get to the bottom of it, just because congress didn't manage to get him in. prosecutors are different. subpoena power. >> laura jarrett, ken dilanian, thank you very much. joining me now, former u.s. attorney and senior fbi official chuck rosenberg, also an msnbc contributor. let us talk about the target letter, and the derivation of lights under color of law. that statute has some people scratching their head when we first learned about it, i know you have had conversations about what it could mean. "the new york times" has some reporting about how it's going to be used and i'll read, well, i'm not going to read that actually. the reporter from the ”the new york times” basically says this is akin to defrauding voters.

it was used during the civil rights era, but could potentially use in the modern area in cases of voting fraud conspiracies. explain that to me, chuck. >> i'll try. we all have rights conferred upon us by the constitution and the laws of the united states. we can travel, we can publish. we can speak, we can petition our government. we can vote. now, if somebody conspires with others to threaten one of those rights, katy, undermine one of those rights, that's a federal crime. this statute would cover the oppression, the threatening of the right of citizens or members of congress to vote, to exercise a privilege. a right guaranteed to them by the institution and the laws of the united states. it's not clear at first plush that that would be, you know,

one of the statutes tat special counsel would cite, but it makes sense to me. i've seen it used. i've read the statute carefully, and it's sensible, katy. >> is it going to apply to a broad swath of voters or voters in specific cities. do you have any idea how he might use it in this case? >> that's a really interesting question. i have been thinking about that. i don't have an answer yet. who is the victim? i'll give you an example, during the january 6th hearings in the house, we heard very compelling testimony from a woman who was an election worker, i believe in fulton county, georgia, from her mother, and i'm blanking on her names. >> shaye moss and ruby freeman, i was going to ask you about them next. >> and we heard about what happened to them because they were simply doing their jobs as election workers, trying to ensure fair and free election. in that part of our country. so, you know, is it the person

who was threatened, the voter whose vote was diluted, a member of congress who tried to cast an electoral vote, the electors from a particular state who were genuine, but who came from a state in which a fraudulent state of electors was submitted. i don't quite know who the victim will be. that's the detail we'll see in the indictment, when and if it comes. i think it's a very interesting issue. in the end, the government at trial would have to prove that somebody was injured, somebody was deprived of that right to vote or have their vote counted. >> on that subject, i was going to ask, what does it say to you that jack smith has seasoned the surveillance footage from the voting place that ruby freeman and shaye moss were working at, the state farm arena down there in fulton county. is that because he wants to

review the security footage of where donald trump was making individual allegations of fraud. should we expect he wants to see security footage from places in detroit and arizona. >> i have two answers to this. one is in an complex, and ongoing federal grand jury investigation, you ask lots of questions and subpoena a lot of stuff. then you only use a fraction of it in the indictment and at trial. and prosecutors and agents and i was a prosecutor for a long time believe in a maxim that there's no such thing as too much evidence. you collect more than you use. a more precise answer is they're looking closely at the various states mr. trump tried to get state officials to overturn the state result. it makes you would go to georgia. it makes sense you would go to the other states in which mr.

trump solicited fraudulent electors. to me this is an example of prosecutors and agents being thorough, but it's also an example of prosecutors and agents honing in on those states that were hotly contested, and where mr. trump tried to upset the results. >> >> jack smith is not going to presumably bring a case that he does not think he's going to win, and i have some interesting statistics about federal defendants and how often they win. in 2022 alone. less than half a percent of federal defendants were acquitted. almost 72,000 people were criminally charged by the fed, and only 290 of those went to trial, and actually won. those numbers are heavily in the government's favor. do you think that that sort of percentage here applies to bringing a case against donald trump or is this just in a league of its own. >> both, and if i can explain

that, katy, that is league of its own, an extraordinary case. no former president has been charged with a crime. the statistics tell you a lot and they tell you a little. most defendants overwhelmingly so are convicted. primarily they plead guilty. 90% of some-odd federal defendants plead guilty. of the 10% that go to trial a high percentage are convicted at trial of at least an amount. a very fraction are charged, go to trial and are fully acquitted. let's put that aside. it's interesting and accurate, but doesn't tell owe what's going to happen here. i'm confident the prosecutors working on the smith team, not only are they among some of the

best, and i know some of the folks that comprise the team. they're going to be extraordinarily effective. you don't put it in an indictment unless you can go to trial. prosecutors are careful, and in this case, they're going to be extraordinarily careful. >> chuck rosenberg, thank you as always for your expertise. i do appreciate it. and still ahead, did he make a deal with donald trump to expunge his impeachments, what speaker mccarthy told us about it. the family of the soldier who darted across -- and sheldon whitehouse joins me live. he advanced a bill on supreme court ethics. will it pass. we are back in 60 seconds. 0 sec.

i've been very clear, long before when i voted against impeachments that they were purely political purposes. no deal out there. >> that was house speaker kevin mccarthy pouring cold water on a report that he struck a deal with house republicans and former president trump to expunge donald trump's impeachments plural. mccarthy told our reporters, there's no deal but at the same time, he does say he does support expungement. so will he allow a vote on the resolution that congress members marjorie taylor greene and elise stefanik have drafted. joining me now is nbc news senior capitol hill correspondent, garrett haake. there's a report this morning in "politico" he made this deal with donald trump because he hadn't yet endorsed donald trump. he was obviously asked about it today. was his answer thorough or was it a little selective? >> i wouldn't call it especially

thorough, but it was technically accurate based on my reporting. i have talked to trump advisers both inside and outside of his campaign who made it clear that this idea of these expungement votes, which is a whole separate issue whether they do anything at all is something the former president is into. he's talked to mccarthy, and other lawmakers too. it places mccarthy in a difficult position where he has donald trump telling him he wants to do this, and he's going to have moderate republicans and by the way, the two republicans serving in the house who voted for the second impeachment, telling him this is not a great idea. it's not surprising he might try to stall even on a measure he says he does support. we'll see how long that's a tenable position for the speaker. >> this idea of expunging it, is it something that has the support of the full house republican conference? is everybody on board with doing it if speaker mccarthy goes

forward with it? >> it certainly doesn't look that way. i mean, what's the oldest rule when it comes to congressional politics. when you have the votes, you take the votes. if you believe, mccarthy, this is something he wants to do, if they're not moving forward, they're not there on having the votes or the timing. the two republicans still serving who voted for the second impeachment would be the first roadblock i would look at if i were working on this issue from a house republican perspective. and members that remit districts joe biden brought in 2020. i want to take up floor time and be questioned if the halls and have to go on the record, basically taking a vote that does absolutely nothing else but politically defend donald trump. it's not necessarily the political fight these members would like to be having as they're thinking about their own reelects next year. >> can i ask you about tommy tuberville and the senate. i want to know what he's talking

about when he may put tuberville's block to a vote. >> this is the traditional solution to what's become a very unusual problem in the senate. typically when you have a senator who has put a hold on something, what they often release the hold for is a vote on their issue. whether they win or lose, this is important to me, i think the senate with me, if it's not, i'll let it go. up until now that's not been the tune tommy tuberville is singing. the pentagon needs to change or we need to have an affirmative vote. schumer is not interested this that. what may be a solution here would be an amendment vote on the defense authorization bill that the senate is dealing with now. if that's good enough for tuberville, a take it or leave it vote, he might get what he's asked for after months of stalling and delay, that even

fellow republicans have said put national security in some jeopardy. >> garrett haake, thank you very much. and should the supreme court and its nine justices who answer to nobody, by the way, have a code of ethics? senator sheldon whitehouse, and the senate judiciary committee say yes. what committee advanced would mean for private flights and luxury vacations. and the latest on u.s. serviceman, travis king, what north korea is saying about the u.s. soldier who bolted across its border on tuesday. bolted as its border on tuesday.

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ethics for the supreme court? the senate judiciary committee says yes, and it voted to advance the bill that would impose one. that bill will head to the full senate, but it will only become law if enough republicans support it. joining me now is democratic chairman of the senate

subcommittee, sheldon whitehouse, let me ask you about what this bill will do? can you explain? >> sure. it would, first of all, require the supreme court to formally adopt the code of ethics that is practically under already effectively, under it already, and then it would require it to put together a process so that if somebody said, hey, you're violating that code of ethics, there would be some examination and determination about that. the moment there is zero process for examining or determining whether a supreme court justice has violated the code of conduct. then i would put similar requirements for recusals, you have to explain why you did or didn't recuse, there's a case or a question of whether should have, and put the requirement of friends of the court, which have become very often front groups that appear in little flotillas and don't reveal who their donors are, but when you look in

later on, you find out they're all interlinked and supported by big right wing dark money interests. so it put a lot of transparency, as well as due process into the courts ethics environment. >> we just talked about the new rules surrounding it. would that mean if you are submitting this, you have to reveal where your money comes from? >> you have to reveal where your money comes from if it's the bigger money that's funding your organization. it's not every dollar, it's just the major donors, and you have to reveal if somebody sent you the text of the briefs, and you just put it in under your name but somebody else wrote it whose name is not on the brief, you would have to record who, what other lawyers or what other people who weren't part of the nominal team actually wrote the brief. >> so if you look back at what started this, was a lot of

reporting around clarence thomas, mostly, these private jets, fishing trips, luxury vacations, whatnot. would those have to be clearly stated under these new guidelines? >> yes, they would have to be disclosed. >> now, let me also ask about recusals, is there a case in particular where you're thinking about, this person probably should have recused but they did not? >> the most obvious one is clarence thomas not recusing in the two investigations, agz arizona, that looked at the plot. in which his wife was exchanging messages with participants in the insurrection plot, including trump's chief of staff. so the question in that case is if he knew at the time that that had taken place, he should have recused himself which is a really simple fact question

which he has never officially been asked. that's a terrible failure of prose. >> some of the criticism of this from republicans is that this code of conduct targets republicans, and it certainly targets the behavior of clarence thomas. what is your response to that? >> it applies equally across the board to every single justice. if it happens that the far right conservative justices and far right businesses have been up to no good in violation of the rules. that's no reason not to go forward. it's not that we pick on them. it's that they're the ones where there has been the most misbehavior. >> do you think if this does go to a floor vote that it's got a chance of passing? >> it depends. two things are intersecting, one, we're moving forward legislatively, and took a big step forward by passing this bill out of committee. we're also working on the investigative side, so we understand the real dimensions

of what has taken place, "the washington post" just dropped a brand new bomb shell this very morning, and our investigations are only at the very beginning stage. so there's a lot yet to discover, and i strongly suspect that when the full story becomes apparent, republicans will realize that they've got to come over and help get this done. >> are you talking about the reporting from the "washington post" today? >> yes, i am. >> let me read a little bit from it. the leo, was the vice president and now a board member of the federalist society, he ran a coordinator nated and sophisticated public relations campaign to defend and celebrate thomas. 2015 was the 20th anniversary of his confirmation to the supreme court, and suddenly there was a flurry of opinion articles defending thomas as well as web sites celebrating thomas's career and attacking his one time accuser, anita hill. on twitter, a new account using

the name quote justice thomas fan account began serving up flattering commentary. so what you're saying is like this sort of stuff would be clear, would be clear if there was just a code of conduct. why wasn't there requirements for the supreme court justice before this? why were they exempt from the rules that everybody else has to follow? >> they really aren't. that's interesting. they have refused to comply with the rules. the judges that make up the conference have been loathe to press the point. but now that there is this abundant evidence of misconduct, then i think it's going to be much harder for the other judges to go along with burying things when they come up. i think now there's going to be a whole new approach to this and if we can pass this law, it actually puts that requirement for a new approach into law.

and by the way, leonard leo was also involved in putting together the federalist society list that they would put on the supreme court, to stop garland, and push gorsuch on to the court. he's the billionaire's operative in all of this. so this news story of this additional pr campaign he runs accentuates a much larger scheme. >> leonard leo, the list of supreme court justices that donald trump put out in 2016, when he was campaigning, came entirely from the federalist society, and that's a point that he emphasized to conservatives, saying if you elect me, even evangelicals specifically, i will get this done, and lo and behold. >> and lo and behold. thank you so much for joining us. we appreciate it. coming up next, the pentagon gave an update on the u.s. soldier who appeared to defect to north korea. what they can report on his condition.

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we still do not know why u.s. serviceman travis king bolted across the dmz into north korea on tuesday. we are learning a little bit more about the trouble he faced

in south korea before he appeared to defect. joining me now from seoul in south korea is nbc news foreign correspondent matt bradley. what was going on with him before this happened? >> reporter: it's complicated, katy. i hope you'll stay with me. what we know from court documents, it turns out he was implicated or accused in two separate assaults, both last fall. now, he was not charged in either of them. during one of these he was placed in a police car, both happened at nightclubs. he started yelling at officers, saying, you know, epithets against the officers. he was later find $5,000 by south korean authorities. instead of paying that fine, he elected and this is a choice you can make here, to go to prison for 48 days. now, he was basically doing labor, and during that prison

sentence here while he was a serving u.s. soldier here in south korea, he managed to pay off his debt. once he was out on july 10th, that was when a week later the u.s. forces decided they were going to move him back to the united states. we understand today he was likely to face further discipline, possibly a discharge when he returned to the united states. he was escorted all the way to the airport, and left there. he had served his time. he was not a criminal as far as the u.s. government and military was concerned. he told authorities at the airport he was missing a travel document. they allowed him to leave the secure area. that's when he decided to join one of these group tours, maybe from base here in seoul and went to the border and the rest is history. that's when he dashed across the border. if he was trying to do to escape further justice, now he is in

one of the cruellest dictatorships in the world, jump from the frying pan to the fire. >> and not been able to make contact with him, and currently no idea about his condition? >> reporter: that's right, we heard that today from a pentagon briefing. they were trying various avenues, the swedes who have a mission in pyongyang, that's where u.s. interests in pyongyang are represented. they tried through the south korean government who has connections with the north korea military, and tried through the united nations. so far into the third day of this diplomatic crisis, they have had no satisfaction of the united states government in trying to reach out to the north koreans, and trying to get an indication of the status of this young private. >> matt bradley, thank you very much. and coming up, they were denied abortions and they almost died. now they are suing. what it could mean for the texas abortion ban. and florida approves new standards for teaching african-american history that include lessons on the

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those are. joining me now is msnbc anchor, lindsey reiser who has been all over the story for us. the issue is that because it's undefined and because there are such big consequences for doctors who perform an abortion, that doctors don't want to do anything, these plaintiffs argue, unless they're literally about to drop dead. >> that interview that you did was so emotional and so much of the testimony we have been hearing is emotional and disturbing so i want to let our viewers know that. you're right, these doctors, if they violate the six-week abortion ban, they face imprisonment, life in prison, $100,000 in fines. their medical license could be revoked. plaintiffs are arguing the law is too vague, women are being denied abortion care. we have been hearing emotional testimony, including from an ob/gyn who traveled across state lines to receive abortion care.

this is what she told the court? >> i envisioned having a third and realizing that that wasn't -- that this pregnancy was not going to end in a toddler running around my house. it was hard. and then i think the more pragmatic part of me just started immediately thinking this is really bad. i need another abortion, and we're going to have to leave texas, and how are we going to do that. >> and, katy, on the part of the state, they're arguing what happened to the women is tragic, and it was in the past, and any harm, future harm being argued right now would be purely hypothetical. they also say that the blame is misplaced. it should not be on the defendants in this case, the state, it should be on these doctors, but katy, we have talked about the consequences that these doctors face and are worried about. >> the doctors don't know what

to do, and we're talking about that was emotional from the ob/gyn looking for an abortion herself, these are women who wanted, many of them wanted these kids. their pregnancies were not viable. it was not option to keep going. if they did keep going, the fetus would die in the womb or soon after it was out of the womb and would pose complications for the mother. when we talk about amanda, it got so bad for her, there's so much scar tissues, one of her fallopian tubes are closed. she has been trying to have another kid. it's made more difficult, already hard in the first place, even more difficult because of everything that happened to her in this last pregnancy. what can we expect for this case? i know it's on day two today. how long is it going to last and what should we anticipate?

>> they also told the court they are considering surrogacy or adoption because they haven't been able to get pregnant again. the judge is deciding whether to grant a temporary injunction to block the abortion law from high risk pregnancies or dismiss all together, which is what the state wants. we should hear closing arguments this afternoon, katy, and then the case will be in the hands of a judge. >> lindsey reiser, thank you very much. >> and florida has new rules for how black history will be taught in public schools that the state's education commissioner said quote, will set the norm for the country. the updated standards which passed unanimously on wednesday dictate that elementary school kids should be taught to recognize civil rights leaders like rosa parks and thomas jefferson as individuals who represent the united states. that middle school students should learn that enslaved people develop skills that could be applied for their personal benefit and that when high school students are taught about

acts of mob violence against black communities, the instructors should also note violence perpetrated by african americans at the same time. joining me is chevron jones, an educator at broward county and has a ph.d. in educational leadership a ph.d. in educational leadership this nearly 300 page curriculums nearly 300 page curriculum is that the flavor of this, are these just three weird examples or is this the flavor of the entire document? >> thank you for having me. and the flavor of the document, butme i think that we all saw ts was coming down the pipeline.

i'm flabber ber glased but also surprised because this is the same department that said that studying african-american history lacked value. never set the state back years. and slavery was not a benefit. in fact we want to teach african-american studies respecc don't start out history as slavery. >> oond they say the changes to the curriculum make it more robust m and teach the good, ba andugly of american history and

age of appropriate manner. what does that mean? >> i mean, i'm not sure what robust s and age appropriate means. but iop do know in a teachers wn they go through their teacher orientation, they goa series of how to teach. and they are also teaching what is age appropriate. we know not on go into a pre-k classroom and talk about things that would probablyut scare tho students. but yet still being able to give them the opportunity for diversity of thought. but what idi can say is that yesterday we spent four hours talking about the whitewashing of african-american history and they did not talk about the teacher shortage, they did not talk about the reading proficiency gap that we'redi dealing with, they did not address the further resources to help students recover from the

covid slide. and so all these words that the department is w using is not helping solve the problem that we should be using. >> and this was voted on uhe than us -- they are going along on this national parade of trying to end wokeism, the governor can't define what that is. no one can define what wokeism is, but i can tell you black people can define it. i do believe one thing, that people know the truth. and young people know the truth and they can't hide it. true history will be taught.

>> and senator jones, thank you very much for joining us. and coming up next, we're in auckland where one reporter was sent to cover something fun for a sochange.a the women's world cup started with a stunner.d highlights next. ghts next. who needs that much more tide? (crashing sounds) everyone's gonna need more tide. it's a mess out there. that's why there's 85% more tide in every power pod. -see? -baby: ah. ♪

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the women's world cup has started. and molly hunter got the lucky draw and joins us now from auckland.

>> reporter: it is the biggest women's sporting event in the world and it is on full display. welcoming 32 nations to both new xi land and australia. and the fanfare interrupted this morning by a rare and deadly shooting incident.land and aust. and the fanfare interrupted this morning by a rare and deadly shooting incident. but the first match kicking off as planned. and auckland is the other main host city and the home for the u.s. national team as they fight through the group round to defend their title. the americans are looking for a record-setting three-peat led by alex morgan. >> we do set expectations and we want to find ourselves the end. we want to hoist the trophy at the end. to get there is a long way.

>> reporter: the 23 person roster, which of course includes megan rapinoe who announced her retirement following the tournament, but also 14 players who have never been to the world cup including sophia smith. >> we're honoring what the team has done in the past while at the same time recognizing that this is a new team. this is the first world cup that this team will win. >> reporter: and cheering them on here is second gentleman doug imhoff. morgan and her co-captain presenting him with a jersey and despite all the pressure, morgan says that they are laser focused on their first game. >> so all of our attention is how we can work together as a team. >> reporter: and we spent time at a couple of the players and we talked about the generational divide. this is a young team full of

newcomers. i asked who got to choose the music on the bus and it was megan. >> and that does it for me. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi there. it is 4:00 in the east. and twin pillars coming into focus on what is likely the final stage of the criminal investigation into donald trump's role in trying to carry out a coup against his own government. the first witness taking the stand before the grand jury hearing evidence in the january 6 investigation. and that witness, william russell, a trump staffer who was with the ex-president on january 6. and this is not his first appearance before the grand jury. the "new york times" report the back in september that he received a subpoena from the justice department. so what does this appearance today an