newcomers. i asked who got to choose the music on the bus and it was megan. >> and that does it for me. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi there. it is 4:00 in the east. and twin pillars coming into focus on what is likely the final stage of the criminal investigation into donald trump's role in trying to carry out a coup against his own government. the first witness taking the stand before the grand jury hearing evidence in the january 6 investigation. and that witness, william russell, a trump staffer who was with the ex-president on january 6. and this is not his first appearance before the grand jury. the "new york times" report the back in september that he received a subpoena from the justice department. so what does this appearance today mean?

he is not even mentioned in the sweeping final report by the january 6 select committee. but he does make a cameo in the january 6 public hearings. the committee showed this photo of donald trump speaking to his then chief he have staff mark meadows. that is russell on the other side of them. this is just before trump delivered a speech to thousands of his supporters, many armed to the teeth urging them to march to the u.s. capitol and fight like hell and promising to go with them. and here is what cassidy hutch enson told the select committee about what was happening in that moment. >> we were in a tent and i was part of a conversation. i was in the vicinity of the conversation where i heard the president say something to the effect of why care if they have weapons, take the fing mags away, let me people in. >> second dramatic development,

a plot twist in the target let letter sent to donald trump. and from the new york times, the letter to mr. trump from the special counsel jack smith referred to three criminal statutes as part of the grand jury investigation into trump's efforts to reverse his 2020 election laws. and two of the statutes were familiar from the criminal referral but the house january 6 committee and months of discussion by legal experts. conspiracy to defraud the government and on instruction obstruction from a proceeding. and the "times" said that there is a new twist in the january 6 investigation. they could charge with violating a civil rights statute. and the "times" adds that the

modern usage of the lalaw raise the that trump could face prosecution on accusations of trying to rig the election himself. this is a looming judgment day and the american president is where we start with some of our favorite reporters and friends. tim and andrew weissmann is back. and also we have the investigations reporter and contributor here. and so tim, let's start with you. we say just about every day whether you are here or not, what a comprehensive job the committee did. what do you think that they want with someone that you didn't talk to? >> he is in the inner circle. will russell is the guy who

carried tictacs and a comb and was around the president to ensure that tasks like that were pull filled. he was apparently with the president back and forth.filled. he was apparently with the president back and forth. we did not talk to him. and as i've said, i'm not at liberty to get in to the deliberations of the committee, but not surprising that they would want to go beyond the universe of folks and get to everyone that might have a shred of information that what the president did. and this body man is a logical witness. >> and so let's stay in the room. a here hutch in-'s description of what was going on.

>> it was notified to the press and to a wide range of staff. they were coordinated and off the record movement was confined for a very small group of advisers and staff.ypically a s travel with him. and you can pull an off the record movement together in less than an hour. it is a way to kind of circumvent having to release it to the press if that is the goal of it. or to not have to have as many security parameters put in place ahead of time to make the movement happen. >> this was an interesting piece of public testimony. if you have worked in the white house, it is often used to pull over and get an ice cream cone. i think joe biden does that pretty often.

president obama pulls over and greets supporters. president bush did it as well. but never am i aware of it to pop into a coup. do you believe that this press wit today suggests that jack smith is as interested in this plan to move physically donald trump to the capitol? >> yes, i think one of the primary topics about what the special counsel interviewed mr. russell is precisely this, whether or not an off the record movement was or was not contemplated. the issue of the president potentially going to the skap after his elipse speech came up in the days before. there was plenty of time to be on the actual schedule. but the secret service and said that it was a horrible idea but

the president wouldn't let it go. ifhe overcame the objections, it would have resulted in an off the record movement. and we developed evidence that the secret service plotted a potential route for him to go to the capitol and they were talking about where to position snipers or security. and so the discussion of the otr would be one thing. but the other potential significance goes back to the earlier clip. and that is knowledge of violence in the crowd before the speech. there was direct discussion at the elipse about the fact that there were people armed. and the president said they are not here to hurt me, let them

in. essentially proposing we didn't need to screen people. so i think that it is again sort of -- statements that russell may have heard about the president's knowledge about weapons in the crowd. >> and it is interesting what is happening now. and what jack smith is doing now as he is talking to this witness. now, white house bodymen a r. famous inside the white house but unknown but everywhere. so what does it say to you that that is who jack smith is talking to today? >> i agree that this is a logical person to be speaking to and put in the grand jury that the testimony is locked in.

because you have a photo of his being there on january 6, it is of course logical that he is going to talk about what happened on january 6, the violence that he may have under understood was going to be a concern with respect to the capitol. and to the point that because he is so close to the former president, in the same way that cassidy hutchinson was, including what he new about mike pence and doj pressures and others, no reason to keep it just focused on january 6.d abod doj pressures and others, no reason to keep it just focused on january 6.wh about mike penc and doj pressures and others, no reason to keep it just focused on january 6.what he new about e pence and doj pressures and others, no reason to keep it just focused on january 6. was still there this afternoon

so it make sense that you rely squeeze everything out of witness thathe possibly knows. and he is represented by the same lawyer who represents walt nauta and that same lawyer represents many other people. this is the so-called house counsel problem. there is nothing legally wrong with it so long as the lawyer is ethically doing his or her job and only representing that client. but the problem with house counsel is that sometimes they don't do it, that they are representing the person paying them. which in this case would be one in the same. which is essentially donald trump. >> and that is an interesting thing to noodle. walt nauta is the only person charged as a co-conspirator.

is if your sense that jack smith will charge conspiracy? >> what we're hearing from various people, that there would be an obstruction charge and so-called 371 conspiracy. that is the 371 conspiracy, that is the actual number of the conspiracy federal statute. and that can cover quite a range of crimes. he find it hard to imagine that there wouldn't be a conspiracy charge here of some sort. the real issue is what does it encompass, does it go all the way back to the time prior to the election when as you have noted that repeatedly there was a plan "b" which is if i lose, this is what i plan on doing. starting from that time frame up to january 6. and that could all be charged as obstruction and also conspiracy.

that is where my money is. i think if jack smith is going bring a charge like this, which i think that he will do, that he will charge everything. he will have taken the lesson from the work that tim and his extraordinary colleagues did on the january 6 committee and clearly flushing that out with the advantages of the grand jury process. but i think that he will charge big because i think that it will encompass what it is that he believes that donald trump did and he will want to make sure that it reflects the overarming conspiracy. >> and we don't get a ton of indicators. so we want to scrub the tea leaves. but this is a witness that they did not have access to for reasons tha't totally know. but i want to show you what we know from cassidy hutchinson.

and we don't know what mark meadows may have helped. but the body man spends the most time with the chief of staff. so i'll show you this clip talking about the altercation in the vehicle. >> tony proceeded to tell me that when the president got in the beast, he was under the impression from mr. meadows that the off the record movement to the koop capitol was still possible and likely to happen. so once the president into the into the vehicle with bobby, he thought that they were going up to the capitol. bobby said we're not, it is not

secure, we're going back to the west wing, the president had very strong, very angry response to that. tony described him as being irate. the president said something to the effect of i'm the fing president, take me to the capitol now. to which bobby responded, sir, we have to go back to the west wing. the president reached up towards the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel. mr. engel grabbed his arm and said sir, you need to take your hand off the steering wheel. we're going back to the west wing. we're not going to the capitol. mr. trump then used his free hand to lung towards bobby engel and he motioned toward his kraf cals. >> and so that story i've heard

it now probably half a dozen times. you think about this potentially being charged about where a trial ensues. the more people who can attest to what really happened in those moments between the speech and trump arriving at the white house, the more powerful that piece of time becomes. body man is someone that i hadn't read a ton about until this recent couple news cycles. what do you understand to be the importance of his testimony? >> yeah, that's right. and will russell did continue to work for trump in the post presidency down at mar-a-lago making him that much of a credible their rart. narrater. of course there are ways around

will russell. you can work around those who declined to disclose information that investigators were asking them about. and we had a lot of people, you saw them, up front who did ultimately comply and provide as much information as they know. but that is not to say that will russell is valuable and was probably with the former president during important moments. and potentially spent a lot of time with him one-on-one in a capacity that some of the other staffers that cooperated like pat cipollone but in terms of reading the tea leaves, there is

an extraordinary scene happening right now in the courthouse where the grand jury is meeting. my colleague who is there actually said that stan woodward, who is representing will russell showed up to his -- the next hearing that he had, a sentencing for actual january 6 defendant, a former state department employee under trump who spent a significant amount of time in the tunnels of the capitol on january 6, and he showed up late to that -- to represent his client because he was with will russell in the other grand jury. and the judge, a 2017 trump appointee, asked why he was late and woodward was reluctant to answer according to those on the scene. and he disclosed that it was because that russell was being

asked questions that infringed on executive privilege. so we don't have a readout yesterday of what was being asked of will russell, what prfs prosecutors are being asked on. but woodward did revealprfs prosecutors are being asked on. but woodward did reveals prosecutors are being asked on. but woodward did reveal prosecutors are being asked on. but woodward did revealwhatpros on. but woodward did revealwhat prosecutors are being asked on. but woodward did reveal that it was he was late because of the executive privilege battle. and thomas windham then actually came up to the courtroom, he was called by mcfadden to appear and they chatted about the situation. >> and that is fascinating. andrew, are we in a twilight zone? >> so this struck me as streets s if probably going to be a tempest in a teapot.

and the judge who jackie referred to as a sentencing.if tempest in a teapot. and the judge who jackie referred to as a sentencing.pro in a teapot. and the judge who jackie referred to as a sentencing. he was an noticed because against was late and they had an agreement that the grand jury appearance wouldn't interfere with the sentencing. so against counsel made the claim that the reason that there was a delay is because of executive privilege claims. we don't know whether that is entirely true or not or accurate or a full assessment of what happened because judge mcfadden summoned the prosecutor to appear probably because he was a bit annoyed as to why the defense lawyer was late. img the i think the judge was correct to do it under seal. and i was surprised that the initial discussion was not under seal.

it is not the role because the grand jury is overseen by the district judge. but it appears that the whool thing got resolved. i will say if there was claim of check difference privilege that was being made because that claim has been made by many other people up to and including the former president and repeatedly been denied because that privilege belongs to the current president not to a former president. and the current president has not asserted executive privilege. and so a long way of saying that i think that the key import to me is less what happened in terms of this tit for tat with

judge mcfadden but more that the grand jury appearance was quite lengthy because this was happening this afternoon. and i think there was a lot of questioning as there should be. . >> all right. we'll have much more on all of this including a closer look being into that statute around civil rights and vote fraud. and plus another threat posted to the ex-president social media platform. warning again of violence ahead. and how national security experts and prosecutors are responding. and later in the show, how republicans today showcasing a new voice spreading disinformation. and he is running from for president. for president.

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so all i want to do is this, i just want to find 11,780 votes which is one more than we have. and flipping the state is a great testament to our country. >> and anyone who watch that thought it must be a crime of some sort somewhere. and take us through your reaction to what we at least at this hour understand to be some

of the charges under consideration by jack smith including this one that was not referred by your committee. >> yeah, everything that i have seen including the reporting about the target letter reinforces the committee criminal referral. we started with obstructionobst. and that most closely corresponds to the fact that requires the united states to prove the president and potentially co-conspirators specifically intended to impede, interfere with or obstruct an official proceeding. so the questions are, does the president's actions obstruct the official proceeding? they absolutely did. and importantly did he intend for that to happen. the select committee developed evidence of his intent and jack

smith focuses on that. so that so me to me is the count of the felony. and conspiracy to interfere with the lawful function of government. that is a catch-all. and then the third statute reported as in the target letter is the deprivation of civil rights. i think the theory there would be that the president took actions to deprive people of their right to vote by interfering with the election, by discrediting or attempting to not recognize their vote, their votes for president biden. and so interfering with that fundamental civil rights. that was not one of the statutes that we recommended. but i could see a path there. i think that the really interesting other looming question that is not in the target letter is seditious conspiracy. a lot of the proud boys and oathkeepers have been charged

with that offense. take requires proof of intent to use force. and so i think there will be that evaluation. i'm sure that they are evaluating whether there is a specific intent to use force which would inform conspiracy seditious charge as well. >> and which gets us to the final witnesses in the room. in the room where the secret service very small inner circle listening to the secret service. >> slightly. so you have played clips of cassidy hutchinson. that obviously is some proof that could be relied on by jack smith. it is important though that there are rules of evidence that you have to look at whether all her statements would be a

admissible as to donald trump. as opposed to hearing somethiis. and mr. russell could have testimony directly from donald trump. but also other people could give that kind of evidence about violence and force that tim is referring to. hope hicks is somebody that the committee interviewed and she said that on january 4 and 5, she strongly was trying to get the former president to say to his supporters who were coming on the 6th that they must remain peaceful. and that he declined. he did not want to do that. again, that would be very strong evidence and if she has that with the direct conversations or communications with the former president, that that is also admissible. so it is that kind of evidence

that we don't have a full sense of exactly what jack smith has. but if he can develop that, and believes that it is beyond reasonable doubt, remember, very high standard, then seditious conspiracy would be an appropriate charge as has been charged with respect to many other people as tim notes. >> and so remarkable that this conversation is even possible. i come back to liz cheney's presentation about derelictions of duty. and again a political term, but it feels like what we're seeing in the parallel world of a cell investigation that there may have been crimes committed. i deepening wouldn't it be great if one person came in and asked trump too call off the insurrection.

we know kevin mccarthy wanted him to call it off. and weed on tuesday all of the republican allies. all the voices coming to one spot telling him to stop it, and he did nothing. that really does amount to a smoking gun, if full, that trump was enthusiastic about the violence itself. >> yeah, and i think what i heard yesterday from people involved with the congressional committee investigating the january 6 attack was sort of a sigh of relief. and validation of their work. i think that committee members.

all the investigators felt like their work was important. but mostly in the educational campaign component, how to convey to the american public and walk them through why they should care about this. the accountability portion is the key piece of the puzzle to a lot of people who have been working on this for years now. and we already know that lot of the key witnesses involved with received target letters in other capacities, someone like mark meadows who was possibly -- probably the person who might be able to give you the most accurate number of the amount of people who tried to get to president trump on january 6. we know that he is cooperating with the january 6 team before the grand jury. and so how far that

accountability will go and whether or not the other key players will ultimately receive target letters as well, that is something that we're still looking out for. >> and thank you for starting us off with that reporting. and up next for us, more on what the receive rights statute could mean. could the justice department be preparing to argue that trump violated the constitution at rights of a group of voters. we'll dig in more on that. we'll dig in more on that. 3... 2... 1...

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as we've been discussing, to prosecute the ex-president, efforts to overturn his defeat in the 2020 election, special counsel jack smith may use a federal statute that dates back to after the civil war and reconstruction era of american history. and it was one of the three federal statutes reportedly listed in the target letter sent to the ex-president alongside conspiracy to defraud the government and obstruction of an official proceeding. but it refers to title 241 that makes it a crime to conspire for jury, oppress, threaten or intimidate any person in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the constitution or laws of the united states. according to the "new york

times," congress enact the statute to provide a tool for federal agents to go after southern whites to prevent form early enslaved african-americans from voting. but now used more broadly. modern usage raise the possibility that rud could face accusations. and now let's go to darren johnson.could face accusations. and now let's go to darren johnson. i want your first reaction to learning the news that this is beyond under consideration, it is one of the statutes listed in the target letter.

>> our reaction is finally. we filed against trump probably within a month of the january 6 insurrection using the same act. no elected official should be intimidated when carrying out their duties. one thing that we know as african-americans, if you allow domestic terrorists to go unaccountable for their actions, we are guaranteed to see more acts of domestic terrorism. and a former president is not an exception of that rule. >> and along those line, let me read to you how the department of justice summarizes the lawyer. so for the purpose of section 242, acts under color of law includes not only done within federal, state or local officials within their lawful authority but also within the bounds. if done while the official is

pretending to act in the performance of their official duties. otherwise known as monday for donald trump. this feels very clean if not obvious. >> you know, it is one of those things where we would witness on television this president rallying the crowd and went to the capitol to try to stop the certification of an election. they went so far to build a gee guillotine outside of the capitol impeach and we learned all the things taking place.ee guillotine outside of the capitol impeach and we learned all the things taking place. guillotine outside of the capitol impeach and we learned all the things taking place. guillotine outside of the capitol impeach and we learned all the things taking place. and we not say that we are a leading democracy around the globe if we allow these type of activities to take place and no one particularly the president

are held accountable. but we should also be looking at who is funding the activities and those individuals will also be held accountable. >> and when you see the east -- the ex-president trying to defend himself from the criminal allegations and a looming indictment in the january 6 case, there is no defense on the facts. right? donald trump is not out there saying i didn't take classified stuff that wasn't mine. he said that it was i mean, i had the right to do it. so january 6, this is a litmus test for all the republicans who want to be president. dismanting the department of justice is a position held by others. what in your view are the stakes of this potential indictment? >> you know, it is really

important that the prosecutors follow through with the i believe indictment and move to a trial. this former president has been able to embrace lies. he is a rapist but says he is not a rapist. he stole documents but he said he was entitled. we have a problem. so we are looking at our democracy coming to an end if the 2024 election goes the wrong way. for african-americans, we recognize that our physical safety is at stake here, that here is an individual who during his tenure, it emboldened so many individuals to broadcast white supremacist harm testimony activities in public whether in charlotteville or the shooting athe krogers or the shooting

in he will pasto. he doesn't care about country but just the outcome. and is that personal. >> and so i'm thinking what is the opportunity on a potential trial to these charges? >> i think one of the core commonalties is that they were a forum for grievance and anger that people felt. the traditional things that many people rely.

and that is why the justice system working, having the systems actually function helps restore confidence and is the antidote to cynicism. i think that the fundamental divide in this country is between people that do and don't believe in the system. and all the different fan mess manifestation of the system. you need to have the system work. so to me the account ability helps restore confidence in the system. and repair the breach that we see manifested in so many different ways in the country. >> derrick, thank you for being a part of the conversation. up next, republicans are not just out there defending trump today. they are seeking to rewrite history as a trump era.

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out of there. getting him out of office. he said that on january 10, 2021. and he said that he believed that impeachment resolution that would pass the house as well as the 25th amendment would be too slow. that trump had to leave feast faster. and he is attempting to rewrite history.feast faster. and he is attempting to rewrite history.east faster. and he is attempting to rewrite history.ast faster. and he is attempting to rewrite history.st faster. and he is attempting to rewrite history.t faster. and he is attempting to rewrite history. faster. and he is attempting to rewrite history. he says that he would expunge both of the impeachments because trump's feelings were hurt after kevin mccarthy suggested that trump's legal headaches could make him a less than ideal candidate. and he says while he supports expungement, there was no deal

struck. and so this enters, you know, the silly season. this is a mccarthy story. and what is going on? >> yeah, i mean, this is a report out of out of politico today. i talked to a mccarthy ally about it who said that what mccarthy promised was a consideration of moving to expunge the two impeachments against donald trump, but that mccarthy does support these expungements. what remains to be seen here is what actual significance this has. it seems largely symbolic. there's no erases of history or rewriting of history. it's not like a criminal record it's some form in a court that can be deleted. it would largely be a symbolic

thing that the republican conference stands in unity behind donald trump and they want to wipe away his past and show that they are lined up in support of him. >> luke, are they all saying ahead of seeing any indictment and what is in any indictment that there's nothing he could be charged with that would be legitimate? >> you know, it's interesting. when i went down to miami to cover the arraignment for trump, when you talk to trump supporters, almost all of them said something like, anything against trump is a witch hunt, there's no legitimacy to it. you talk to the biden supporters and say what about this and that with biden, almost all of them said, if joe biden did something wrong, he should be held accountable. there wasn't the same allegiance

and blind loyalty to a single man on the left that trump has with his base on the right. it seems like there's this culture on the hill when you talk to republicans that any criticism against trump, any legal actions against trump, any investigations against trump are all de facto illegitimate and they cannot be considered legitimate in any way. >> you don't even have to go to a biden supporter. you go to a pence supporter or pompeo supporter or a john bolton supporter. i have to sneak in a quick break, can i hold you and ask you on the other side? >> sure. >> we'll be right back. e? >> sure. >> we'll be right back

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that's how much a new report says the inflation reduction act could save just the average american family on energy costs. [narrator] learn how the inflation reduction act will save you money. you cover the hill, and i see it as this a post fact, the news about hunter biden. it's so beyond. it doesn't even present as legitimate political oversight or discourse. i wonder if anyone is worried that they're not going to have the ability to make a political or legal argument if somebody has a classified documents scandal or an election scandal. do they see their grip on

reality slipping away? >> you mean the republicans? >> of course. >> so that's a good question. there are so many people on the hill that are one way in public and another way in private. they know they have to do performative things to apiece trump in many cases or often beyond that, to appease -- that is the driving force. a lot of the allegations are stunts and they know they're stunts, but they feel they have to do them. >> just a remarkable moment. we're grateful to you for watching all of it and reporting on it. thank you, luke broadwater. america is bracing for whatever comes next as the ex-president's political calendar, both his political one and legal one are packed and colliding head first with the special counsel's investigation. much more news straight ahead. don't go anywhere today. t ahead. don't go anywhere today.

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every president in our history has defended this orderly transfer of authority except one. january 6th, 2021, was the first time one american president refused his constitutional duty to transfer power peacefully to the next. in addition to being unlawful as described in our report, this was an utter moral failure and a clear dereliction of duty. no man that would behave that way at that moment in time can ever serve in any position of authority in our nation again. he is unfit for any office. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in the east. when it comes to special counsel jack smith's investigation into that, the ex-president's efforts to overturn his own election defeat, nothing less than our nation's foundational principles

are at stake. brand new reporting in "the washington post" details how this, along with examining trump's conduct are hurdling towards charges after fitful starts. from that new reporting, quote, for 2 1/2 years after rioters swarmed the capitol, criminal investigations into trump and his allies for attempting to overturn the 2020 election percolated quietly. as another presidential campaign featuring trump accelerates towards primary season, the assorted local, state and federal probes are bursting into highly visible action. the proliferation of charges and expected charges marks the most extensive effort yet to hold accountable those who attempted to help trump remain in office after he lost the election. jack smith having to contend with many factors as he criminally investigates and possibly indicts the ex-president for a second time including his duty to uphold the rule of law while millions are

being told that that lie, that actions are politically motivated. there's also the mere fact that trump's calendar is littered with various other court dates in various other lawsuits and investigations, and, of course, it's happening while the ex-president is running a third campaign to be president. "the new york times" writes about that, quote, the collision course is raising extraordinary and unprecedented questions about the logistical legal and political challenges of various charges unfolding against the backdrop of a political campaign. we'll take a peek at his already crowded calendar with a possibility indictment from jack smith that could at any time on the january 6th side. the first gop presidential debate will be hemmed in just over a month. in early october trump faces a state trial on civil fraud accusations in new york. december is when doj is requesting that the trial begin in trump's mishandling of classified documents and state

secrets, although we do not know when judge cannon will ultimately decide to commence that trial. in the new year there's another trial expected on whether trump defamed writer e. jean carroll set to begin the very same day of the iowa caucuses. later that month, at lawsuit accusing trump and his company and his kids of a pyramid scheme will start. a little over a month after that, super tuesday, more than a dozen states will hold their primaries, followed three weeks later by the start of the trial in trump's hush money payments to a porn star. in july, the republican national convention for the 2024 president race, all leading up to election day in america in november. investigation overseen fulton county district attorney and any trial that will follow from that. so many crimes, so little time is where we start the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. "washington post" national investigations reporter carol

len nick is back with us. joining us, former assistant u.s. attorney glenn kirschner is back, "new york times" editorial reporter mara gay is here. carol len nick, i have very mixed feelings about this story and this body of reporting which is all completely accurate, completely newsworthy. but i feel like the volume business has always served trump. so much scandal, we won't pay attention to all of it. so much criminality, we'll become numb to any of it. what do you make of this excellent body of reporting? >> there's a lot to chew on, isn't there? when you put up the calendar, we all as reporters are kind of dumb struck by how much criminal exposure donald trump has had, but for all of them to collide as they have, basically as the company and political parties

get ready to elect the next president, this is not ideal. it is not the ideal time that prosecutors want to be bringing cases of criminality. they never knew they would be charging a former president. that's never happened before. now we can say, you know, more than one and done. maybe we'll be four and done. we'll see. i think one of the problems for prosecutors, federal prosecutors in particular is that donald trump has excellently and expertly persuaded a lot of his supporters and his voters that the effort to target him is an effort to target them and their wishes, that they and their wishes will be dashed because prosecutors are trying to detail his presidency by coming at him at this time. if the charges had been brought far in advance of this particular political cycle, it would be ever so slightly more difficult for donald trump to

say that the department of justice is weaponized against him, but it's playing quite well for him at the moment. i think he will continue to beat that drum as long as he's getting a receptive audience. you saw, nicolle, people cheering when he said, when they indict me, they're trying to indict you. sort of the version of when they come for me, they're coming for you. that has made it very personal and made it a real battle cry that has been received very, very well by his supporters. >> glenn kirschner, i have -- i never disagree with carol. i have a different view or different perspective on this. there's never a good time to charge donald trump because he's a kamikaze politician. you come to him over crimes he doesn't ever really deny committing and he'll blow it up and burn it all down. i wonder if we make a mistake in

not drawing more organized crime parallels. >> as far as donald trump is concerned, there's never a good time to prosecute him. as far as the rule of law is concerned, it's always been a good time to prosecute donald trump, and he's gotten away with so much for so long. as carol sort of suggested, he is forever flooding the zone with bad stuff. unfortunately that seems to work to his advantage. just when prosecutors can grab on to one crime and one investigation, something else pops up. i got to the point about six months ago, nicolle, and this is not what you would ordinarily hear from a career prosecutor, enough with the investigating, let's get to some of the prosecuting. here we are many month later and we're yet to have our first criminal tile.

i'm not sure when that first criminal trial might actually occur. i think the first one set for trial is the district attorney's case, alvin bragg's case up in new york. i am dubious about whether that will actually go because there is this phenomenon. i would never purport to speak for district attorneys, but there is this phenomenon. when the feds are involved in prosecuting somebody, the federal government has for more resources than any state prosecution office or commonwealth prosecutor's office. there eeps often this sense that when somebody is being prosecuted in a state forum and a federal forum -- again, not wanting to speak for state district attorneys, they're often happy to take a back seat and let the fends who have a 95-plus percent conviction rate go first. frankly, that could obviate the need for a state prosecution

altogether. there are so many variables and uncertainties here, and all of that seems to work to the advantage of donald trump. >> carol, i want to come back to you. i think your body of reporting going back to the first book that you and phil rucker wrote makes clear that everything we see, and you see it much more astutely as a journalist covering it and investigating it, is so amplified by the people who have front row seats. his lack of fitness for office, from the extraordinary reporting you did on the tank briefing at the pentagon, his extraordinary appetite for corruption, for enriching his businesses, the extraordinary exploitation of the secret service and the way you move a president around and where he stays. all of the firsthand witnesses to his lack of fitness, his pension for corruption and the crimes he committed on a daily basis are all the people closest to trump. i wonder how you think that

plays. should he actually be on trial? >> well, i'm not sure -- i appreciate the amazing memory you have, nicolle, and how you remember what all reporters have written in the past. it's sort of stunning to me. i apologize that i want to answer your question, but i'm not sure what you mean about given all the individuals who know and worked with him and ran -- >> any witness against trump, as we saw in the january 6th hearings, they're all lifelong trumpers, people who voted for him, believed in him enough to go work for him. no one saying he is unfit, who like in 2015 when they called me and said don't do it, don't work for the other guy. there are people who said take me. dina powell, h.r. mcmaster, john bolton, bill barr, are ed o'callaghan. the people who saw him corrupt

u.s. foreign policy and doj, they're all trumpers. do you think that's any mitigating factor to how a trial is received by the country? >> one of the strokes of genius of the january 6th committee was how absolutely firm and resolute they were in presenting witnesses who were republicans and pro-trump acolytes who had rushed to work for him. the list you gave included several. the witnesses that they presented testified about their horror about what happened on january 6th, the horror at realizing that the president of the united states was not going to try to stop or influence in any way a bloody insurrection at the capitol that left his vice president, lawmakers and just regular congressional staffers running for their lives. you will remember the amazing

testimony of numerous witnesses, most of them televised or video taped. pat cipollone who wanted desperately to be donald trump's white house counsel, wanted to help him deliver on his platforms, his policies. pat cipollone realized donald trump didn't have a platform, didn't have policies. what he had was a desire to basically stay in power. the rules, the laws, the constitution be damned. it led to pat cipollone and all of his deputying threatening to resign en masse if the president didn't change tact. in particular, if the president didn't try to fire his department of justice. numerous leaders in the department of justice who also were pro trump, pro bill barr, came to that office hoping to help donald trump deliver on his campaign platform. but what they left feeling was that they were almost the

victims at a saturday night massacre, feeling as though the first insurrection is the one in which the clean, clear, free of any partisan influence department of justice was being hijacked by donald trump's wish to stay in power. so i don't know if i'm well answering your question, but i will say if prosecutors do a little bit of what the january 6th committee did, it feels like it will be very convincing to hear from those individuals, the ones that were at his side in every photo op and now have pulled away from him as hard as they can with every ore that's at their reach. >> glenn kirschner, the idea that the political calendar and the legal calendar colliding benefits trump is predicated on this cynical bet that trump is making, right? that all of his supporters will see him as a victim. you can't be a victim of your own chief of staff. you can't be a victim of your

own body guy, of your own secret service who wiped all their text messages ironically, accidentally, perhaps criminally. who the heck knows? the idea that the country can't process new information about trump from trump's son-in-law, from trump's daughter, from trump's chief of staff, from trump's secret service is to be shortsighted. >> nicolle, the country may not be able to process it. that does a disservice to the country. a small segment of the population may be unable or unwilling to process it, unwilling to break with trump no matter what he's been shown to have done. the point you make is an excellent one about all of these witnesses who are providing sharply incriminating evidence against donald trump. he will be convicted at trial with a chorus of republican voices. so, you know what? 20% or 30% of the population may

be unwilling to acknowledge reality or walk away from donald trump. one thing i'm absolutely confident of, when that parade of witnesses like his cabinet officials, his perhaps family members, his lawyers who have, if not turned against him, been turned against him by jack smith by defeating all privileges they tried to throw up and getting a truthful account of how donald trump put them up to acting in furtherance of his crimes, he will be convicted, i'm confident, with a chorus of republican voices, and maybe, maybe that 20 or 30% begins to think differently. of course, maybe not. >> mar gay i push on these open doors because we have to be careful not to race ahead. we've never been here before. we've never had a president like

trump. once he was elected, we've never had someone who used the office to do the things he did. once defeated, we've never watched someone do the things in office to try to stay and overturn an election. i would add, as a candidate, to be the president again, we've never seen anyone literally running on burning it all down, burning down the government. there are people that don't like democratic policies, but i don't know how big the focus group response is to burning it all down. that's what his public position is on the department of justice, career civil service, the fbi and everything he would oversee again. my only thought today as we sit in this important and extraordinary and historic moment is no one knows what's going to happen tomorrow. >> boy, i think we should definitely hold on to our seats. that's exactly right, nicolle. i do have to say that one thing

that's been interesting in recent days is we really see the system of federalism coming together. what this will mean for all these different prosecutions we obviously don't yet know. but i actually find this very heartening in the sense that it appears that wherever donald trump went in life and then in politics, he has left a trail of potentially criminal behavior, in his companies, in the white house, in new york, in georgia, potentially in arizona. the list goes on. in michigan. i think seeing this is not just a prosecution that is going to hinge on just the department of justice on one form of government, one institution, it's actually important not because it can convince trumpers, necessarily, but i think it tells the rest of america who is living in the

real world, a broader story about donald trump's behavior. it's really important that we have more than one institution that's capable of bringing the president to justice if that's what's required here. you can't say that the department of justice is corrupt and so is every single other state prosecutor, government that's coming after you. it doesn't hold water, right? i think it becomes harder for donald trump to -- he's essentially playing whack-a-mole. it becomes harder to prosecute every single prosecutorn that's coming after him. of course, he deserves his day in court like everybody else. >> i completely agree with carol and glenn, that this is the playbook. i would just hold some space for the possibility that it won't work as well as he thinks it will. carol leonnig, glenn kirschner

and mara gay, thank you for joining me. when we come back, a dark, dangerous and ominous threat reposted by the guy we're talking about, twice-indicted disgraced ex-president warning of unprecedented consequences as the legal woes pose on him. the violence it could insight and the possibility that prosecutors could use it against him. also ahead for us, robert kennedy jr. has developed a reputation for spreading dangerous and vile conspiracy theories. what rfk jr. had to say on capitol hill. we'll hear from one of the democrats who pushed back. deadline white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. a quick. don't go anywhere today.

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following months of social media posts targeting the u.s. department of justice, special counsel jack smith and yesterday more broadly the, quote, entire legal system itself, the disgraced ex-president put his stamp of approval on perhaps the most egregious threat so far. he reposted a maga video to his own truth social account. it appears to use old audio of trump from a 2020 interview in which trump is actually talking about iran. it's used here without any mention of that or any context at all. watch it. >> [ bleep ] if you do something bad to us, we are going to do things to you that have never been done before. >> so having been indicted and

facing a second indictment, one can safely assume that here, quote, if you do something bad to us, end quote, means if you hold me accountable for things i definitely did and also tried to hide and am now lying about, we're going to you know what. he's also making this an us thing. he's triggered by his own latest target letter he received on sunday night, not to mention fully committing to approval of violence and threats and slapping his official 2024 presidential campaign logo on to it. this is now something the republican party green lights, right? they didn't attack him, they didn't rebuke him. leaders in washington are taking trump's calls this week. kevin mccarthy is trying to expunge his two impeachments, falling into line. joining our conversation about what happens next, former department of homeland security chief of staff miles taylor, the author of "blow back: a warning

to safe democracy from the next trump." it's in book stores right now. he's host of a new podcast, the whistle-blowers. you can listen to that. also joining us, an msnbc national security analyst frank figliuzzi. frank, let me start with you on what you saw and what you worried about when you saw this message. >> you know, we've become accustomed to this, and it's ratcheting up. i think my overriding thought is we now have a political party -- i'm not even sure it's a political party anymore -- that owns this. this is theirs. this is no longer just donald trump inciting people to do domestic terrorism. it's an entire party that seems to refuse to press it down, suppress it, call it out and say we actually distinguish ourselves from that. that's the problem.

the more leaders involved in encouraging this and remaining silent, the more leaders who say, you know, all of this is rigged, all the cases against trump are rigged, all the prosecutors everywhere, state, local, county, federal, they're all part of a deep state, all working together -- which by the way drives me crazy. he's actually made comments, the manhattan d.a.'s office is staffed by the u.s. department of justice. i have no idea what he's talking about. he said the same thing about fulton county, the strings are being pulled by the feds. this is extremely dangerous stuff. when i talk to peak in the law enforcement community what's coming next, they tell me they're girding, they're developing threat matrixmatrixe. what do those look like? they look at how many of trump's cohort might be indicted in fulton county or in washington, d.c. by jack smith because that

raises the risk and threat level as people think, boy, they're coming after the entire party leadership, and trump feels even more emboldened. they're looking with regard to atlanta at the proximity of marjorie taylor greene's district 65 miles west of atlanta and whether she's going to be instigating people to travel. they're most concerned about the lone offender, the person that is not on their radar screen, that they simply cannot capture in their analysis. that's the concern right now. >> miles taylor, i think from the morning after it was clear that joe biden was the next president of the united states the blame shifted to mitch mcconnell and kevin mccarthy. in my view, the enablers are the ones who make it impossible to purge the political cancer from the political system because the permission structure comes from the lack of reaction to any of it, the lack of a rebuke from

anyone over than chris christie and asa hutchinson who are running against trump. you and i have talked about the political and electoral realities of those candidacies. i wonder from a messaging standpoint if you think they have any chance of breaking through. >> well, i think, nicolle, that people like that are the last best hope within the republican party of stopping drum. donald trump. i want to be clear, i think a second term of donald trump would be the end of the american republic as we know it. that sounds like an extreme thing to say, but after two years of interviewing people of what would happen in a second trump term, it's the only conclusion i could come to. after talking to official after official that served under trump, leading his departments and agencies, the conclusion i came to is they are building a road map for revenge.

i was hesitant to write those words in "blowback." trump, true to form, has gone out and made that very clear publicly. he intends on retaking office, if he does, to weaponize powers of the federal government to go after his political rivals. the details of howe they want to do that are disturbing and hopefully enough to shock the conscience of republicans who still know he's a dangerous man. just to give you a sample, nicolle, i had ex-trump officials many of them telling me, most of them on the record that saying in his second term he'll want to weaponize to spy on political rivals. he tried to wiretap staff in the first term in the white house. he will press congress to try to pass secret laws by sneaking things into intelligence authorization bills, that he will appoint special counsels to go after political rivals. one said the watch words will be

sue the blue, to sue democratic politicians and organizations and blue states and that others in the defense world said he wanted to create his own military forces, mercenary forces like vladimir putin had with the wagner group in his country. one official commented that in his eyes that was a junior gestapo. by the way, the person who said that was trump's lead counterterrorism official for the department of homeland security. we're talking about a very dangerous situation. this man isn't being secret at all about his intentions to misappropriate the powers of the federal government for partisan purposes. >> frank, it's all out in the open. miles does an extraordinary job making it digestible, getting into on the record from some people who have never talked public lip before. i wonder in sort of the story of radicalization and extremism if we're calling it out too late,

frank. >> the time to thoroughly vet this candidate was a long time ago. it's gone by. it doesn't mean we should throw up our hands and give up. the more the word gets out and the more light of day that people like miles expose the plan -- we're not making this up. this is the plan. we've got the heritage foundation working on a plan. we've already seen evidence of what he would do with career employees. he wanted a so-called schedule f personnel designation that would allow him to fire career civil servants because he didn't like their attitude or they were part of the deep state. these are people that worked 20, 30 years in the agencies. imagine the kind of thing we'd see, if you see trump loyalists like michael flint, convicted fellow become secretary of defense or the national security adviser. look at someone like stephen miller in charge of homeland security and immigration.

that's no joke. we're not making stuff up here. this is the kind of thing and the kind of people he would likely put in place. the notion that career civil servants could get fired really smacks of loyalty pledges that would be necessary. i've had the honor in my career of administering the oath to fbi employees, fbi terrorism task force members. it's an honor to do that. imagine if we have to insert a signed pledge, please sign here that you'll be loyal to the president or you're going to be fired. that's exactly what we're hearing from trump's circle. >> that's what john kelly was asked to pledge to trump, what jim comey was asked to pledge. i want to read some of the great reporting you did for your book along the lines of what you and frank were talking about. the damage trump did in the first term is rep rabble.

bolton told me. but a second maga administration would do damage that is not rep rabble. trumpism is a progressive disease. it might remit for a while but never gets leader. as a pentagon leader told me under trump -- you paint a really, really dark picture. it's important for everyone who covers politics and who is going to cover the presidential campaign to read what the last team around trump said to you about what the next trump campaign would look like. in that vein, what is your hope in how the book changes the conversation? >> first and foremost, i really hope in looking at this road map for revenge that trump and his allies are creating that it does wake some people up that are still conservatives of conscience to the severity of the threat.

in the last go-around, i would like to think that joe biden beat donald trump in a landslide. as you said many times, nicolle, it was way closer than many of us would have liked. every vote is going to matter in the next election in preventing someone who is authoritarian curious or just full on authoritarian from coming into the white house. i hope this wakes some of those people up. importantly, as much as they're building roadmap for revenge, if we can shine a light on it, then we still have some time to protect those guardrails of democracy. the clock is really ticking. i think you and frank are right, that the time to vet donald trump was long ago, but we still have time to stop donald trump. the vetting has been thorough. as people like john bolton and others who spoke to me for this book make very clear, none of them, no one believes a second trump administration is going to have people of good intent and

character and expertise surrounding the president. again and again i heard the opposite. people who want to wage the culture wars, but unlike the culture wars of the past, they want to weigh the culture wars with loaded guns. that's a big concern. we're talking about a live fire exercise here, people. one of the things i was surprised that the u.s. department of homeland security let me say, because i had to clear it through pre publication clearance, was we came close to preparing for nuclear war during the trump administration. we were that worried about his instability and we need to be more worried about the return of him or a copycat to the white house. >> i hope everybody running against him does some reading this weekend and consumes everything you reveal, a lot of it for the first time. miles' new book is called "blow back." it's out right now. miles taylor, frank figliuzzi, thank you so much. house republicans platforming who else?

robert kennedy jr. despite his track record for peddling dangerous and racist conspiracy theories. one of the democrats who pushed back rather brilliantly will be our guest after a short break. don't go anywhere. break. don't go anywhere. muscle, bone, and heart health. yaaay! woo hoo! ensure with 25 vitamins and minerals and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. ♪

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why would the republican leadership and the committee majority give a hearing and a platform to the witnesses today? specifically to mr. kennedy, a man who has recently claimed that covid-19 is targeted to

attack caucasians and black people. it's a free country. both chairman jordan, mr. wendy are free to say whatever they want. it's the chairman's right to promote any of the views he wants to promote. the freedom doesn't mean that the rest of us can't see what they're doing and demand something better from our representatives, from my colleagues, from this congress. >> if you've never heard of robert f. kennedy jr. in the context of this current political moment and all that is broken and bad about it, first of all, lucky you. sorry to ruin that. we'll start with a quick word on who he is and crucially who he is not. rfk jr. is, as you likely surprised, the son of robert f. kennedy, highly regarded brother of president john f. kennedy. robert kennedy is not a scientist or a doctor. that's not stopped him from spreading lie after lie after lie on topics of public health

and vaccine safety. rfk jr. is, however, an overwhelming source of misinformation and disinformation, a purveyor of vial conspiracy theories. he's linked chemicals in our water supply to gender dysphoria and insisted covid vaccines were a tool to control people via microchips. he's that guy. he's not a person who can claim the high ground on the topic of race, having just recently suggested covid-19 might have been genetically engineered to target, quote, caucasians and black people, end quote, and to spare jewish and chinese people. rfk, jr., is someone who has recently been rebuked by some of his own very famous and highly regarded family members. finally, and perhaps most alarming of all, rfk jr. is a candidate for president on the democratic side. he is second for president

biden, having polled as high as 20%. for all those reasons, you can see why today republicans handed him a bull horn. he was on capitol hill testifying in front of the gop-led and ironically named subcommittee of the federal government on the topic of censorship and free speech. here is he responded to delegate -- >> everybody in this room believes i have been. that's the narrative. anti-semitism, racism, these are the most appalling, disgusting pejoratives and they're applied to me by silence me. by the way, i want to say this while i'm on the record, that in my entire life and while i'm under oath, in my entire life i have never uttered a phrase that was either racist or

anti-semitic. >> again, rebuked in the last 72 hours by many members of his very fair mouse family. delegate stacy plaskett, the ranking democratic on the weaponization of the subcommittee. also joining us, michael tulmanski, editor of "the new republic." delegate plaskett, what was the purpose -- we'll deal with the substance of what -- >> must we deal with the substance? >> we don't have to. what was the purpose? >> well, thanks for having me and thanks for us having this discussion. this is once again the subcommittee's main focus is to undermine the rule of law and to

test-run conspiracy theories before the 2024 presidential elections. that's jim jordan's mandate from donald trump, from mark meadows, from his perch in the private sector now, and from speaker mccarthy who is a hostage to the maga portion of his party. they'll do that by any means, whether it's to intimidate social media which are private companies, to allow their platform to have any and all conspiracy theorists, russian trolls, chinese hackers onto that site, or it is to make americans believe that the fbi, the doj is specifically going after individuals like themselves, which are election deniers, voter suppressionists, white supremacists and

insurrectionists. >> michael, i will honor the delegate's wishes, and you and i will deal with some of the substance. i just want to call bs on some of the substance i played there. he is a self-described advocate, goes face-to-face with parents carrying young children. let me read you some reporting. this is his own quote. quote, our job is to resist and to talk about it to everybody. if you're walking down the street, and i do this now myself, i do this myself which is, you know, i don't want to. i'm not a busy body but i see somebody on a hiking trail carrying a little baby and i say to him, better not get him vaccinated. he heard that from me. if he hears it from ten more people, maybe he won't do it. maybe he'll save that child. before we were all quiet because we wanted to get along with our families, if you talk about the issue, people are scared you'll get marge allized from your communities. now is the time to come out of

the closet. that's rfk jr. describing how he aggressively gets in front of people and presents his anti-vax philosophy. >> of course he's an anti-vaxer. he said today, by the way, on capitol hill under oath that he was not. that's interesting. of course, there will be no consequences because there are no consequences in these committees are running as such clown shows. he lied today. he spouts very toxic conspiracy theories all the time. i think we need to ask ourselves, what's he doing? what's his motivation forgetting in this race? the congresswoman spoke eloquently about the committee, but let's talk about him. why is he running in the democratic primary? he's not upholding any principles of the democratic party that i or anyone i know can see. so what's he trying to do and

what's the impact of his candidacy going to be? he's not going to get much of a vote. i think he'll get maybe single digits. i think the more people know about him, i think they'll be on to him, particularly democratic voters. he'll have a cynical corrosive impacts on the system and the whole election, an election we all know in which democracy is directly at stake and on the ballot. >> michael, the people closest to him have had some of the harshest rebukes of him. i know some people who know him. they're eager for the media to cover him with the bright lights of truth, calling out what sounds like perjury in front of congress. what is fuels his campaign financially and organizationally? >> financially republicans are fueling it. information came out last night that the plurality of his donors are republicans, i think it was about 38%, maybe 18% democrats and various other people sorted in there. you can see who is backing him.

they're not stupid. they're backing him for a reason, because they can see that he harms joe biden he'll have a very -- as i say, cynical effect on the electorate the longer he stays in. by the way, i'd throw cornell west in there, too, no labels in there, perhaps any of the others of them. we're in a situation here in this country whereby the next president election is about whether democracy will survive. everybody needs to be on that team. anybody who isn't on that team is on the other team. >> you know, i agree with you on that. congresswoman, let me bring you back into this. first, there is a lot of evidence that he may have perjured himself. would you defer lying to congress? >> well, we've seen that in past hearings, as your other guest eloquently stated, that we have

repeatedly brought to the chair's attention individuals who have not been truthful in their testimony, and nothing happens. there were several points that mr. kennedy made today. right there on the screen you saw in the hearing where he said, told one of my colleagues, debbie wasserman schultz that he did not say things that were anti-semitic. she gave him a quote, and he said he did not say that. later on in the hearing don goldman played what he said. he put forward i was untruthful when i said he espoused and pushed racist notions in black communities, information which has been detrimental to my community, whether it be equating covid vaccines with the

tuskegee experiment, as well as telling people they have different blood and immune systems and vaccines will affect them detrimentally, which has led in some cases in communities in minnesota, to children having outbreak of measles, because they've believed this misinformation he's put out there. >> congresswoman, who is the remedy? you have a chairman of your committee clearly not acting in good faith and a witness clearly not telling the truth. what is the remedy for that? >> the remedy is for those of us of mind to believe in the truth and to ensure that our democracy extends, to keep pushing our voices forward, to keep talking about the truth to, keep bringing the facts to light. i mean, we have individuals who have been brave witnesses, who have come forward. you know, we had one of the contributors for msnbc as our witness today, maya wiley, who spoke eloquently about the

damages not just to covid vaccinations, but to our election system with the pressure that's being put on social media so that they do not remove individuals such as russian trolls that are going to be coming after people, trying to bring misinformation and voter suppression, particularly in minority communities and to young people and to men. and so those individuals continually be brave, but we know that my colleagues such as jim jordan and others, they are bringing the dogs after them. they are bringing individuals after them who are intimidating them, who are scaring them. people have talked about having to move from their homes, being threatened about where they live with their children. one woman was pregnant with her first child and was deathly afraid. those are the things that are going on right now. >> well, we will, with your help, continue to shine a bright light on all of that. congresswoman, thank you so much for making time for us today, and michael tomasky, thank you

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folks. the time to act to protect our rights is now. that's why i'm hoping you'll join me today in supporting the american civil liberties union. it's easy to make a difference. just call or go online now and become an aclu guardian of liberty. all it takes is just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day. your monthly support will make you part of the movement to protect the rights of all people, including the fundamental right to vote. states are passing laws that would suppress the right to vote. we are going backwards. but the aclu can't do this important work without the support of people like you. you can help ensure liberty and justice for all and make sure that every vote is counted. so please call the aclu now or go to my aclu.org and join us. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt and much more. to show you're a part of the movement to protect the rights guaranteed to all of us by the us constitution.

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts now. >> thank you so much. welcome to "the beat," everyone. we are on the case. special counsel jack smith closing in on donald trump. we have witnesses being brought in who was close to the president at the time he was president on january 6th. white house aide william russell who's with the trump campaign today is testifying today. he already testified before the grand jury. they're bringing himac