administration's post title 42 strategy. we'll see whether they're able to skirt around those data points and continue pushing the border as a critical issue. >> all right. politics reporter at axios. thank you so much for getting up and joining us. appreciate it. thank you for getting up "way too early" with us this morning, on friday morning. "morning joe" starts right about -- now. the republican hearings that have unfolded over the last few days and throughout this entire congress are a malignant clown show that are not designed to address issues that impact the health, the safety and the economic well-being of the american people. but instead, peddle outlandish and out of control conspiracy theories. >> you know it's so true, house

leader not holding back. i thought the reference to my favorite punk sca-band, insane. what was it? >> malignant clown show. >> malignant clown show. >> a good one! >> best 1990s bunk sca-band out there. >> close cousin to the insane clown posse out of detroit. >> yeah, of course. >> fantastic. >> that a malignant clown show. >> this as top republican in the senate releases an fbi memo that fails to prove any, any, of the accusations against president joe biden and his son hunter. >> and the people said, oh, how nice. the republicans now have their own steele dossier. >> yeah. plus, kevin mccarthy made a

secret promise to trump. and speaking of the form period we'll play his ominous comments that seem to be calls for a january 6 response to his legal issues. >> here's the problem. willie -- >> a lot of problems there! >> there are a lot of problems but he needs to read the room. this does not help him with jack smith. i don't know. maybe this helped him with a contract dispute in new jersey when he'd throw words around like that. >> threatening stuff. >> doesn't help with jack smith. does it? >> no. i had the same thought when i heard that last night, which is, you're about, likely, about to be indicted for part of the indictment, for inciting a riot. it would be wild, everything else getting people to go to the capitol and now sort of implying that your supporters might do that again, if the justice department does, in fact, indict you. not the best legal strategy, though. i don't even know which lawyers he has around him anymore if they can mention that to him, but it doesn't appear to be

breaking through any legal advice he may be getting. he's just going to keep being him. >> it's a malignant clown show. >> with us, former white house director of communications, of president obama. jennifer palmieri and associate editor of "the washington post" and msnbc political analyst eugene robinson and white house editor for politico sam stein, filling in for the very, very lazy jonathan lemire. >> wow. >> seriously. how many days is that guy going to take off? >> your words. your words. >> yeah. so lazy. >> this might be the second -- >> second day in five years he's taken off? i don't know. >> now, look. we have sam and what do we call that? a malignant clown show. >> oh, stop! that's terrible. >> i'm joking. joking. listen, so -- so we have everybody whining how joe biden's going to do so terribly, and everybody whining

about a third-party candidate. everybody whining about everything, because this is what the democrats do. >> well -- >> and the obama administration when their campaign talked about bed-wetting. excessive bed-wetting going on there and we showed a poll yesterday showing tnt losing by five points to joe biden, 49-44%. another came out, media showed joe biden crushing donald trump even with a third-party candidate. >> interesting part. despite having concerns, new polling shows most americans are not open to voting for a third-party ticket in 2024. in the latest monmouth university survey just 30% of registered voters say they would definitely or probably consider voting third party, if biden and trump are the leading names on the to 24 ballot. as for how a nameless third

party ticket could impact a 2024 rematch between the current and former president, the poll shows it may actually help biden without a third-party option, the sho s biden beating trump by seven points. 37% to 40%. with a third-party ticket on the ballot, biden's victory over trump grows to 9 points. 37% to 28%. >> so -- so, willie, looking at this. first of all, i mean, this is the second day we have polls out that show joe biden easily beating donald trump. thumping him. on this third-party ballot, we all think it's going to hurt joe biden, hurt joe biden, people are with donald trump. doesn't look that way here and in other polls. looks like people are saying, i don't like donald trump at all. give me another option. i'll never vote for joe biden. i'll never vote for a democrat, but give me a third-party option. we see there, there are actual

softness in donald trump's numbers and joe biden looking better than ever. >> yeah. that cuts against the conventional wisdom. everything we've been hearing which is if someone like joe manchin were to jump in the race it would only hurt joe biden and hope to get donald trump re-elected to be president. curious how you read into those numbers, because every other poll we've seen says people don't like the matchup. they don't like the choices. they don't want donald trump against joe biden and they don't want to see this movie again. and yet when you actually put the question directly to them, 30% of them want to see a third party, but it actually helps joe biden and, again in that head-to-head, i think it was seven points again, the one we saw yesterday was five points. you have joe biden up seven points in this monmouth poll over donald trump. for all the panicking, as joe says, going on in the democratic party. the numbers look pretty good for joe biden. >> looking at my phone, because i already have two text messages

from democrats who i don't like to use the term bed-wetting because i find it crude, who are freaking out about this poll, because that is what democrats do, joe. you're right. we do freak out, but it's also while we're still a republic standing because we over-worry about elections and what's going to happen in them. this is interesting. not sure i trust it. the first time i've seen a poll where there's a third-party option that did benefit biden as opposed to trump. although, or at least didn't hurt biden, but there is a lot of concern that if you have, that trump's numbers, and every other poll i've seen this, are very strong. if you have, there are people have a third-party option, that that is likely to take away from biden, because biden is winning some disgruntled republicans and independents over. now, continuing in the role of

the party pooper here for democrats i'll say talking about the poll from yesterday, which had biden winning 49-45 over trump. a national poll. that's great. look at battleground states. use wisconsin as an example. got to get to 270. these states are not static. they're changing. so wisconsin, for example, has a higher level of white, non-college educated voters in 2024 than it had in 2020. that cohort of voters has favored trump as opposed to biden. so these poll numbers are all great, but, you know,y still have to, got to get to 270 and there's concerns about when you look underneath the hood, what are those numbers like in each of these battleground states? in terms of the third party, you know, only 30% open to voting for a, you know, either -- third-party option, but jill

stein only needed to get in a very, the very small digits of support in wisconsin, michigan and pennsylvania to win the election for donald trump. so i think the third party remains still a very, very significant threat to joe biden. >> yeah. yeah. the ptsd is strong with this one. >> there is no post about it, joe. it's just traumatic stress. >> exactly! >> it is -- it is traumatic stress. sam! why didn't she just say on the two best days of polling for joe biden, why didn't she just say, "we don't deserve good things." where republicans say, we may not deserve it but we're going to take it. that when you see these polls you're looking at it going, well, this is a trend line in a positive direction! you know? happy days are here again.

when you look at, when i look at wisconsin what do i see? a judge's race conservatives called the most important race in that state, in a decade and democrats won by 11 points. yes, things are not static. things are breaking. maybe it's because i'm not a democrat. i'm still an independent. so i'm not overly negative yet. things are breaking, in democrats' way. won by a landslide in wisconsin in supreme court judicial race republicans called the most important race of their time. democrats won in kansas. they won in kentucky on abortion. they have so many things breaking their way. not just the indictments, but the overturning of roe. so many things good going in their direction and donald trump is looking crazier and crazier every day. why i always -- i don't talk about national polls usually. i talk about the suburbs of atlanta. they'll never go for trump again. it suburbs of philly will never

go to trump again. of milwaukee, never go for trump again. especially post-roe, and i hope the power of positive thinking did not trigger jen or any other democrats out there, but, look. it's okay to be happy. it's okay to smile. it's okay -- >> no, it's not. >> it's okay to be positive, sam. >> no, it's not. >> oh, oh. >> hell no. >> first of all let me agree with jen. bed wetting is a crude disgusting term and should be banished from the airwaves. never mention it again. secondly, jen did make, you know, i think, a very valid if not cup half empty case for democrats heading into 2024. it is a race in certain states. it's not a national race. right? you have to look at wisconsin and pennsylvania. and this, i guess, would be a question i would sort of direct to eugene here which is, if you

look at that third-party ticket, right, and scared about it, it's -- there's no -- you have to look at two third-party tickets. the manchin one, no labels. it would draw centrists away from biden. and the other, cornell, take a couple points. a few key thousand votes in critical states away from biden in what jen is reliving sort of a jill stein scenario. right? i don't want to trig ter again, but that is what happened. you are plugged in, eugene, you know the people. which do they fear the most? do they fear the -- the manchin-type run or do they fear the cornel west small percentage points liberal enthusiasm just being drained from them? >> well, the answer, of course, because they're democrats, is both. you know? but before i get to that,

though, let me -- i'm shocked we haven't yet mentioned, 12 minutes into the show, we haven't mentioned the one real, big story in washington today, which is the nfl owners approved the sale of the washington football team. the commanders. >> oh, yeah. >> dan snyder. the long national nightmare is over. and -- you know, everything is bright and sunny again. >> yes! >> so -- >> right. >> our malignant clown show is over. so -- so let's all, you know, how can anybody have negative thoughts on a day like that? it's just -- it's amazing. >> good question. >> third party? my general view has been that a third party would probably hurt joe biden, but now we have some data indicating maybe it wouldn't.

i think that's a good thing. and i think the polling has been good harks just been good for biden, and i'm perfectly willing to say, you know, great! and -- and spend the day not worrying. my resolution for the day is not to worry, and to celebrate the end of a terrible era here in washington football. >> there you go, gene. that's the spirit. been almost a quarter century under the snyder family with the redskins/commanders now officially it's over, gene. congrats to you. talking about this interview donald trump did earlier this week. it was in iowa, a radio show in iowa. the former president asked about the possibility of jail time stemming from special counsel jack smith's investigation. here is trump's answer. >> is it something that concerns you of, you know, of the people making sure that they don't go

out of their right mind, if something like that happens? because i know what i'm thinking of could happen if that, for example, they do, say jack smith says okay. i am going to put donald trump in jail? >> i think it's a very dangerous thing to even talk about. >> okay. >> because we do have a tremendously passionate group of voters and i mean, maybe you know, maybe 100, 150, never seen anything like it. much more passion in 2020 and much more passion than they had in 2016. i think it would be very dangerous. >> joe, much more passion than they had in 2020 implying it could be even worse than you saw around the 2020 election. obviously just appallingly dangerous stuff to say given the recent history in this country and also as you pointed out earlier, very stupid, as he perhaps comes under indictment here for the events around the 2020 election. >> yeah. i don't know if donald trump understands.

>> what do you think he's doing? >> he's talking like a mobster. "it would be a shame, dangerous for jack smith." >> wouldn't want to riot. >> and they're more dangerous now than in 2020 or 2016. >> could be worse. >> gene, he's just so stupid. he really is. >> yeah, yeah. >> he just doesn't understand. he's going up against the feds. he doesn't understand that he can't bully and bluster and threaten his way out of criminal charges that are coming, because he broke the law. because he stole nuclear secrets, because he stole secret plans to attack iran, because he stole secret military secrets, because he has, people all around him, all around him, on january the 6th, that are testifying against him. no democrats. no moderate republicans. all trumpers! all the trump -- everybody that

he ever hired has gone before the grand jury. everybody that was around him january the 6th went before the grand jury. all trumpers. and he's going to be charged for some of the most serious crimes in america, and his response? his response, instead of talking to his lawyers saying, hey. get me a deal. i don't know what it's going to look like, but get me a deal. because they've got me dead. my own people are people testifying against me. get me a deal. instead of that he goes on an iowa radio show and like a mobster threatens jack smith. has he not looked at pictures of jack smith? this guy looks like the judge on "andor" all right? >> yes, yes. >> he looks like the guy who takes the good guy from the "star wars" galaxy and throws him into jail for life. he doesn't understand. i'm scared. you just scared me by putting

this picture up. like what does he think? does he think jack smith is going to be intimidated by mob-like threats, gene? >> yeah. and that's not going to happen. looks like a, jack smith, looks like a pretty intense guy and like he's not going to take any of this from donald trump. i think trump just doesn't know what else to do. he obviously sees the walls closing in on him. the indictment's coming. someone must have told him, let him know what the conviction rate is in federal court, which is well over 90% of defendants who were charged either get guilty or convicted, and it is -- this is a, a tough situation for him, and rather than, than make a deal, and rather than try to, you know, somehow keep his freedom, he does this.

it can only make things worse for him. it can only make things worse for him, but he just doesn't know what else to do. >> doesn't no better. >> he's going to run harder and harder and harder to win the esidency so he can try to pardon himself. that's -- i think that's his ultimate move. >> it's reminiscent of the stand back and stand by that he said to the crowd. there's a lot of -- i think, i agree with joe on this one point. although heilemann texted me to say not to let you mao, mao, me about the monmouth poll. said what he said yesterday, very mob-like. right? but he did another interview earlier in the week where he was asked, seems like he kind of liked these indictments. he said, no, it bothers me. a little moment of vulnerability he was showing that, know, this stuff is getting to him. >> well, coming up we're going

to actually -- >> by the way, john heilemann also texting me. >> what did he say? lazy? >> he says that, of course, also just talking about the poll. disturbs him there's a poll that actually shows thing, going well for joe biden. >> also a message from debbie dingell for you when we have a moment, about that. >> oh, oh, boy! >> so -- no, no, no. so does debbie think that biden's going to lose michigan because if she does, i mean, i will bet her, like, a couple of detroit tiger baseball tickets against red sox tickets that biden's going to win michigan if he goes up against trump. >> so i think biden's going to win michigan if he -- i think biden is going to win re-election, win michigan, win wisconsin, win pennsylvania. but it does mean it's going to be easy or by five points. what debbie wants you to know is, she says, i'm not bed-wetting. i'm in union halls, in union

halls is really, it's concerning. the president of the uaw is, uaw's up for grabs. trump spoke with them. biden spoke with them. they're trying to win them over. i still think in the end this is going to be okay, because democrats do get it together, but, you know, these states are concerning. how you asked questions about the third-party candidate matters a lot. >> well, you know, i feel really good about the third-party states. again, i feel good about the third-party states because donald trump did worse in them in 2020 than in 2016. and in 2022, you look at all of the swing states. they broke. a lot more for democrats and that they did for republicans. the same, not bed-wetting. what do we call it? the same ptsd. >> yes. >> gripped the democratic party. all we heard, willie, the red wave. >> hand wringing. a good one. >> oh, there's going to be a red

wave. i don't -- mika does it seem like a red wave to you? she said, no, it doesn't seem -- >> validate how you feel. >> i validate how everybody feels. okay? willie, here are the thing. i will say this. i'm glad the democrats are panicked when the sun comes can out and dan snyder leaves the washington whatever they're called now. i'm glad that they're panicking, because that means they're going to work harder. >> that's it. >> i remember the thing that freaked me out around my campaign offices were, you know, nobody ever dared, say, more than one time, hey, hey, joe. we got this one in the bag. >> exactly! >> that's when, you know, when file cabinets started going over. i would fool will ferrell with a trident. i understand that. this is what republicans don't understand. right? because they've gotten so crazy. they forgot what used to make them great on the campaign trail, which was organizing, getting out, getting people to vote. democrats over the past two or

three cycles figured it out. i get what debbie dingell is saying but if you're a union member going, hey, do i support joe biden or not? unemployment record lows, manufacturing exploding across america, a dollar generational highs against the -- with americans' economy doing better than it's done in ages with our gdp at $25 trillion while china is stagnant in $17 trillion. you're a union member and wages are growing? like, real wages against inflation are growing. you got a question on who you're going to support? ah -- yeah. give him the union halls and ask what kind of glue they're sniffing because joe biden has been the best president for unions they've had since, i don't know -- who? who? help me out here. lbj? >> yeah. could be lbj. i mean, first of all, joe, you ought to run for something. you're pretty good at this. we should talk about that some

day. >> nah. >> but the democrats and joe biden do have a good story to tell, and they should be worried about telling it. i think that's true, and then the other side of it is, here's the alternative. sort of make that 2020 case again. do you really want to go back to that? do you really want to go back to the trump years? do you really want to go back to the guy who's currently sitting on trial in a courtroom in washington, or sitting on trial in a courtroom in florida. or wherever he ends up next year, which when the trial is taking play. >> or a jail cell there is the side-by-side binary choice. to yur point as jen points out, 2016 sort of made people a little gun shy about counting their chickens before they hatch. maybe 2004 also. and in '20 and again in 2022 it was people, grass roots. it was activists, democrats working hard doing the old-fashioned stuff, getting people to come out and vote that frankly changed the course of history in this country. and i think they need to be

mindful of that and they are clearly as jen says, that this is going to be a close race. even though it's donald trump and a lot of people think he shouldn't go back to the white house. it's going to be close and take a lot of hard work to beat him. >> going to be close. >> all right. so, coming up on "morning joe" jackie alemany of "the washington post" joining us with latest who testified from the federal grand jury hearing evidence on the january 6th riot and also attempts to overthrow the election. we'll be right back. from prom dresses to workouts and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b.

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will wufl is one of the president's body men. the guy that carried tic tacs a comb and sort of around the

president to ensure that administrative tasks like that were fulfilled, and he is depicted in photographs. he was apparently with the president back and forth to the ellipse and to the oval office on january 6th. >> that was a lead investigators for the january 6th committee describes the latest witness to appear before the federal grand jury hearing evidence about the january 6th insurrection, and donald trump's attempts to overturn the 2020 election. william russell testified yesterday. he is a long-time aide to the former president who was reportedly by trump's side for most of the day on january 6th, 2021, although he has previously testified before the grand jury, russell's level of cooperation is unclear, since he still works for the trump campaign. we did, though, get a possible hint as to why prosecutors are

questioning him, in a bizarre scene that played out during an un unrelated court proceeding. the same building he was being questioned his lawyer showed up late for a different client. >> what was that? bank fraud? a. client sentenced for his role on january 6th. when the judge pressed why he was late, he didn't want to leave russell alone with the special counsel's prosecutors because hi client was being asked questions which potentially involved executive privilege. that could indicate that the doj is questioning russell to help piece together trump's words and actions from the day of the insurrection. the judge then sent a u.s. marshal to summon the doj's prosecutors to the courtroom where they had a tense, private discussion at the bench. >> that's fascinating. >> bring in congressional investigation's reporter for

"the washington post" jackie alemany. an msnbc contributor. jackie what more do you know about william russell and what he might be sharing? sharing with the federal grand jury? >> yeah. mika, an extraordinary scene that played out yesterday in the d.c. courthouse when stan woodward showed up late to the sentencing of federico because of the length of the questioning of his client, will russell. you know, the january 6th committee and now jack smith's team of prosecutors has most likely put together a very comprehensive account of that day on january 6th and trump's actions, but there is no one perhaps more close to the president during that time period, and maybe who knows him better than the bodyman. as we've seen, you know, for example, with someone like walt nada, trump's co-conspirator in the mar-a-lago documents case replaced will wufl as the

bodyman post-presidency. someone who follows the president around all the time. knows all of sort of most inmitt details and could get a view into trump's mind-set on that day. of course, there are already other countless people, witnesses who have testified to the, to jack smith's team. we know that, for example, during the january 6th committee we heard from people like nicholas luna, julie radford, all aides to ivanka trump and former president trump who detailed some of the events leading up to the january 6th rally, where trump whipped up the crowd into a fever prior to them attacking the u.s. capitol. where trump was on the phone with former vice president mike pence at the time then vice president head of the electoral certification. we had people who had said that trump, the conversation was

extremely heated. we heard from ivanka trump said the president had never taken such a tone with the vice president. we called him a wimp. the p word. again, will russells testimony could still be really important for jack smith in terms of wrapping up this investigation. >> jackie, it's sam stein here. i want to talk about sort of a side figure in all of this. the attorney, stan woodward, who seems to represent basically everyone in trump world, in these various charges that they're facing. he was involved in a weird situation yesterday, involving william russell, running from one trial to another. i haven't been able to wrap my head around this, but sure you have. how does having one sort of consecutive tissue defense attorney impact these kinds cases, if at all. >> yes. certainly a head-scratching situation that is set up, but it's definitely a common one.

past presidents have also used this kind of joint defense situation, and it definitely raises a lot of sort of obvious questions about information sharing and the ability for witnesses to kind of all strategize and come to some sort of agreement on testimony, but at the end of the day, there's only so much that you know, these lawyers, these defense lawyers can do. you know, questions -- for example, yesterday the big issue that woodward revealed to the federal judge, mcfadden who scolded him for showing up late to the sentencing was that, you know, he said to the judge, i'm late because the prosecutors, jack smith's prosecutors were infringing on my client's claims of executive privilege. and that the questioning ran late, but some something like that we've already seen the court overrule those sorts of claims and ultimately compel

these witnesses to be truthful. we've already also seen charges pressed against trump confidants and allies, people like walt nada for making false statements. there is a lot on the line here. a lot more so than was on the line for some of these people who simply declined to cooperated with the congressional investigation, although i must note will russell is someone, not someone that the january 6th committee actually reached out to, nor interviewed. >> that's crazy. a lot going on in washington. jackie alemany, thank you so much. gene robinson, you just look at, you look at this lawyer running from one trump-related case to another trump-related case. from january 6th to another, and gee, will justice everen done? think about all the people in jail now because of january the 6th, because of donald trump. think about donald trump all indictments against donald trump. go back and thinking a all of the people who worked for donald

trump, his national security advisor. like, indicted, arrested, indicted. like, charged. his campaign manager, charged. sent to jail. his assistant campaign manager, gates. charged. sent to jail. his political director, steve bannon, i guess counsel to the president, you know, charged. right? right? and charged and -- and found guilty and then pardoned and there may be another charge out there. the dude in south florida, the nixon dude with the funny glasses. i forget his name right now. like, arrested. what's that? what's his name again? >> stone. >> roger stone. that's right. for some reason i always forget roger's name. roger! like, arrested, charged. it's just -- it's crazy. i mean, how many people, if we had a running list, connected to donald trump, his administration, his campaign who

have already been charged and convicted for crimes. there's never been a presidency close to this. >> no. there's never anything like this, because there's never been the kind of rampant criminality and insanity we saw in the trump presidency, and so a whole lot of lawyers are you know, shopping for new yachts, i guess, because, assuming they're getting paid. and -- like, my one question is, who's paying this lawyer who's running back and forth from case to case? in any event, yes. this is a level of criminality proven criminality and increasingly punished criminality that we've never seen before. in our history. i hope we never see again. but it's got to be a message to,

to anybody who gets, you know, a phone call, a subpoena from jack smith, go in. tell the truth. these claims of executive privilege have basically all been denied. that argument isn't working. go in, tell the truth. you'll be a whole lot better off than if you try to stonewall in some way, because if do you that, you're likely to end up, you know, in jail. i mean, that's kind of where a lot of people are headed, and look at, you know, walt nauta, who came in and essentially lied to smith's prosecutors and said he didn't know anything about documents, and it turned out he was moving boxes of them and now, you know, he's a criminal defendant, on federal charges. so i don't know if people are getting this message that the thing to do is, you better tell the truth and cooperate, but if

they're not, they're going to pay the consequences. >> yeah. i'm so glad you brought that up. i mean, so many people lied for the fbi, and related to donald trump. always ends badly for them. and you're also right about executive privilege. the roberts' court is not buying it. it it's related to january the 6th, the roberts' court has already said, no executive privilege for things that may have been said in commission of a crime. so you're so right there. and one other thing, gene, you're so right on. i mean, it's been horrible for america, but you talk about glory days for the washington, d.c. criminal bar since donald trump came to town. i mean, he has been a full employment act for all of them. still ahead, vice president kamala harris going to florida to deliver approval of new

standards on how black history will be taught, including some really perverse stuff, talking about how slavery helped slaves. reverend al sharpton here and weigh in on that, plus president biden takes endorsement from a far-right congresswoman and takes on the road to philly. we'll show you how marjorie taylor greene is helping boost bidenomics and also ahead my conversation with patrick mahomes' star sillian murphy and robert downey jr. the blockbuster some called the most important and best film of this century hits theaters today. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. nexium 24hr prevents heartburn acid for twice as long as pepcid. get all-day and all-night heartburn acid prevention with just one pill a day.

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the united states capitol at 6:45 on a friday morning. vice president kamala harris will visit florida today to address the state's new standards for teaching black history in schools. earlier this week the state's board of education approved new guidelines that includes teaching students that some black people benefited from slavery because it taught them useful skills. the white house says the vice president now will deliver remarks in jacksonville to highlight the administration's efforts to "protect fundamental freedoms." the visit comes a day after harris' speech in indianapolis where she blasted states banning books. >> and speaking of our children, extremists passbook bans to prevent them from learning our true history. book bans in this year of our lord 2023. and while they do this, check it

out. they push forward revisionist history. just yesterday in the state of florida they decided middle school students will be taught that enslaved people benefitted from slavery! they insult us in an attempt to gaslight us and we will not stand for it. >> joining us now, host of msnbc's "politicsnation" president of the national action network reverend al sharpton. rev, good morning. i had to dig in and read this i thought the headline couldn't be true. here it is. a 216-page document from the florida state board of education. one section that reads, slaves developed sequels in some instances could be applied for their personal benefits. never thought i'd see both sides-ism of slavery caught in public schools. >> well, it is not only insulting it is humiliating, and it really is dangerous, because it will instruct young people,

if it is allowed to go forward, not only a distorted version of american history, but it robs us from seeing where we are. when you see the vice president going to florida today to really give national spotlight to this it shows also how far the country's gone, that you have a first-time in the history of the country a woman, and black woman as vice president that came from a history of slavery. so to distort how brutal slavery is is like saying an abused woman, a man says i abused her trying to get her bad lineage out her, family curses out of her. i mean it is absolutely absurd, insulting and it is not only a distortion of american history but it robs from us the progress that we have made. therefore, the progress we must continue. and i couldn't think of anything

more egregious to do to young people, so i'm glad that vice president is going to florida to underline this. >> well, and talking about this, rev, you actually have also, the requirement for teachers to engage in both sides-ism. to talk about, for instance, the infamous 1920 massacre in florida that actually was described by many as one of the most single bloody days in american history for this type of masker against black people. the guidelines say teachers must also teach acts of violence in massacres like this against black people, the acts of violence, black people may have committed in that massacre. again a massacre against black people in florida, because a black man tried to vote.

this would be akin to saying if you're in warsaw, you must teach. not only how nazis massacred the jews, but if the jews did anything in the warsaw uprising to try to defend themselves against the nazi massacre, you must teach those acts of violence against nazi stormtroopers as well. >> it's grotesque. >> it is so grtesque and obscene. >> yes. it's just unthinkable this is happening in 2023, but this is ron desantis's florida, and could be ron desantis's america. >> it is absolutely ron desantis' florida, and when we look at that he is the most, the second most popular candidate, according to polls, even though he's a distant, from trump. so your choice is trump or desantis, who's brought about this, in this country, at this

time. those of us that want to rise above that have to really push back. like the vice president's visit, and stand together. i mean, you and i came from different political perspectives but stand together. that's why martin luther king iii invited you to be with us on august 26th showing there are people that will people that will stand together and tell the truth about what happened in the country so we can heal. you can't bring the country together unless we're honest about what happened. yes, tell both sides, but tell both sides in a real way. don't try to equate things that are not equal and not fair. you know, joe, one of the things that i was saying to someone last night when i got the call the vice president was going. it's very personal to many of us. in 2007, a new york paper, the "new york daily news" did a whole tracing of my background.

found out that my family was owned by a family in edgefield, south carolina, alexander sharpton. that's who my great grandfather was owned by. i went down and even saw the plantation my great grandfather worked at. it never occurred to me until that day, every time i write my name or hear my name, i'm saying the name of the owners of my great grandfather. that's the property name of us. that's how personal it is. to think my grandson or whomever in my family in florida could learn thisfl benefited us, thate didn't even know our names, we didn't know our history and was made to work with no wages and act like there was some benefit to that, it's a personal slap in the face of all americans, and weic all ought to resist it and stand together like you and i

have,i joe. >> rev, you know this history. i have a similar family history in south carolina. you talk about the history of slavery. it's incredible that florida would go revisionist on that and say we benefited from it somehow. but there are entire episodes of african american history that are actually american history that simply still are not taught. there's what's called the red summer of 1919, for example. troops coming home from world war i. there was a lot of turmoil in the country. there were anti-black riots in cities across the country that year, especially in the summer,

what was called the red summer. that episode is hardly ever taught anywhere in our schools, yet it was a really big deal. howg can we not only fight the revisionism, but how can we get just the basics of the african american story, which is the american story, told? >> i think that we must continue to fight to make sure that those stories are told, and i think that when we see the department of education federally should be pushing these out, pushing these local school boards and state school boards to tell the entire story of what happened with blacks, of what happened with others. i don't think we tell the true story of what happened to a lot of poor whites. and i think it is something not to cover up. it's something to expose because it makes us stronger and it makes us better, and to really try and eliminate the truth does

not make it untrue. it makes us unwise as a country and as a people, and i think we have to look at it that way. >> reverend al sharpton, thank you very much. so well ssaid, and we'll be covering this much more in the weeks to come. >> thank you, rev. talk for a min hut, if you will -- you were talking about the march in august. remind everybody about the 60th anniversary, the martha you're putting together. >> 60 years later martin luther king iii and andrea waters king has called for this march to stand together against hate crimes, stand together against voter rights' erosion in many states, against gun violence. jonathan greenblatt of the anti-defamation league, the urban league, asian american groups, latino groups and all of our lgbtq groups are coming

together. it's a march to say 60 years ago dr. king and minnie came together and talked about a dream, going to the same place, lincoln memorial. who promised abe lincoln that we'd bring the country together. that's why we're not going to the jefferson monument, but lincoln made the promise. that's why king was there 60 years ago. that's why we're going there on the anniversary. that's why we want people like you there with us, because we must u show in this time of hat crimes rising against all sectors, that we're going to stand together. we will not go backwards. >> honored with the invitation, rev and will be honored to be there. still ahead a house democrat exposes the hypocrisy within the republican party when it comes to the biden family and foreign countries. we'll play for you those comments. one of our next guests poses this question. is the sheer stupidity of republican politics breaking

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joe biden had the largest public investment in social infrastructure and environmental programs, that is actually finishing what fdr started, that lbj expanded on, and joe biden is attempting to complete. programs to address education, medical care, urban problems, world poverty, transportation, medicare, medicaid, labor unions, and he still is working on it. >> as you may have seen, apparently 40 million people watched. marjorie taylor greene, the very conservative gentlelady, said

biden is doing things like roosevelt, created these jobs and -- i never had an endorsement from her before. >> one of the best endorsements i think i've ever seen, joe biden highlighting that inadvertent endorsement from marjorie taylor greene. >> was it inadvertent? she meant everything she said. she just didn't get that it was a good problem, but she meant into. >> what's so funny, willie, she's actually speaking out against medicare, attacking medicare, attacking medicaid, attacking, as she said, great advances in infrastructure, great advances in health care, great advances in all of these things that, well, the overwhelming majority of americans want him to do. they want all of their leaders to do. i guess she thinks it's a

negative thing. it turned out to be a hell of an ad. >> i think that's what happens when you spend too much time in the narrow social media podcast world, in that bubble, and you here the echoes -- unanimously almost people want medicare, rely on medicare, in her own district in north georgia, of course. man, you couldn't have scripted that any better, building on the legacy of fdr and lbj and on and on. truly, i said the other morning she sounded like a dnc sleeper agent. the more i hear that, i wonder if she's up to something else because it is so flattering of president biden. >> welcome back to "morning joe," it is friday. who is glad it's friday? anybody? >> oh, yeah. >> july 21st. jen palmieri, eugene robinson still with us. joining the conversation the host of the podcast "on brand

where donny deutsch," donny deutsch joins us. that's a lot. i wasn't going to say anything because people really don't like it when i comment on done any's appearance. they think it's reverse sexism. >> he's got a tan. he's going blue today. he's moved beyond the "oceans 11" look. >> also with us, host of the incredible fast politics podcast molly jong-fast. always great to see you. >> a nameless third party ticket could potentially help joe biden in a hypothetical rematch against donald trump? so look at this. without a third party option the survey shows biden beating trump by seven points, 47% to 40%. with a third party ticket on the ballot, vied den's victory over trump grows to nine points, 37%

to 28%. >> a lot of people, john heilemann being one of them, distracted by the third party option here. we don't know what the third party option is going to be. let's talk about some trim lines. i don't know. i guess it's post -- maybe it's with news of inflation going down in a big way. maybe it's news of america's economy being better than the economy of just about anybody else's in the world. maybe it's a great nato summit. yesterday we had a poll that showed joe biden up 49 to 44%. yesterday we had a poll showing him up by seven points. that was yesterday, a quinnipiac poll yesterday an emerson poll "today" showing him up by seven points. many saying this is a brutal poll for donald trump. let's circle back and say what you and i have been saying from the very beginning. any indictment -- i can't believe we have to even say

this, but you have to say this in the podcast and the pundit world. any indictment is a bad indictment. the fact that a couple months ago one jokingly put the over/under on the indictments for donald trump when people said he was never going to be indicted, at 2 1/2 and probably will blow past that. possibly indicted in georgia and new jersey. republicans will be dealing with a guy who has four or five indictments against him. got a new york judge saying he raped e. jean carroll. he's got january 6th riots behind him, an attempt to overthrow an election behind him. this doesn't really poll well in the suburbs of atlanta and philly and detroit. all of this wining about how bad things are from democrats, i'm not seeing it. i think it's pretty good.

>> there's two tracks. there's the biden track and there's the trump track. let's look at the biden track. you mentioned it. just the economic numbers are stunningly good everywhere you go. it's finally -- there's a delay. we talked a lot about it on the show that, wait a second, every number is so good, the wage numbers, the unemployment numbers, the gdp numbers, the manufacturing numbers. the consumer sentiment numbers are starting to catch up with that. if you're going to look at a trim line, you're going to say that economically it looks like things are staying on track and will continue to go in that direction. then you go on the trump track, and you go -- about 500 days from the election. what good can happen for trump going forward that's going to start to push those poll numbers in the other direction. it's hard to come up with anything. we're probably looking at, as you said, another one or two indictments. is trump going to come up with a new policy? he has no policies. it's going to take the suburb

voters in philadelphia and make them forget january 6th? it's hard to prognosticate and say what's going to cause trump to go forward and force biden to go back? every trend is starting to percolate in that direction that is pro biden. >> i think the problem here for anybody arguing against this, joe, is that when donald trump went down the escalator, nobody thought he could win the presidency, and everyone who said that was completely wrong. people laughed and thought it's impossible. you have a situation now where he is a former president and he has done things like take very bad acts and normalize them, whether it's rape, whether it's saying to a female attorney about a woman who accused him of defamation, sexual abuse, you're

not my type, whether it's hush money to a porn star he had an affair with, whether inciting riots. he's taken very bad things and normalized them. he's desensitized the public to how bad they are. look at kevin mccarthy. the guy has federal indictments coming his way and on him, and the weight of federal indictments do not stop republican politicians including the speaker of the house to try and somehow normalize what happened on january 6th. so that will cause a little bit of concern about what can happen during the presidential election. >> so, yes, they're trying to normalize it to their detriment. i haven't said this before, but itches just thinking about this last night. it was like 2:00 in the morning and i woke up and said, oh, my god, yes!

exactly. it's one of those things. it occurred to me that since donald trump, the great disrupter got elected in 2016, because of all of this, trump republicans lost in 2017, in 2018, in 2019, in 2020. let me continue, because i have to remind people of this once in a while, especially republicans. 2021, 2022. the red wave. oh, the red wave. oh, wait. it was a sprinkle. a light little sprinkle. 2022, 2023, losers, losers, losers because they tried to normalize something that can't be normalized. willie, if you want to know how bad donald trump plays in the suburbs, think about the list that mika talked about. she didn't even get to him stealing nuclear secrets from a

government skiff and taking them to his beach house in florida and then lying to the justice department, lying to the fbi about those documents, about documents regarding an invasion of iran, documents regarding the most top secret military secrets. no, we didn't even get to that. so, yes, i do understand why people are so upset about this. we have found that gravity has returned. we have found a supreme court bought and paid for by certain activists, that donald trump turned over to, right? a supreme court has the lowest approval rating ever among the american people. they overturn a 50-year precedent that 70% of americans

support, a woman's right to choose. guess what? there are consequences to all of this, willie, just like they'll be consequences to all the things that mika points out and the ones she didn't even get to, like stealing nuclear secrets. >> and given all of that, the question of our time in politics, it seems to me, is why republicans keep coming back for more from donald trump. thank you, sir, may i have another? they keep getting paddled by donald trump and asking for another one. it really is. it's a staggering thing to watch. it asks the question whether they'll allow themselves to be steamed roll, forced to more dr. ozes and herschel walkers. molly, it's part of what you're writing about in your new piece just posted at "vanity fair" in which molly writes, quote, as new york democrat richie tr res

told me, no one or nothing in america safe from the sheer stupidity of modern republican politics. the acronyms like dei and esg, barbie, hunter biden, trans'6 people. ted cruz called a scene in barbie chinese communist propaganda. so even so, it's an open question whether democrats can effectively make the point of jamming through amendments targeting transgender service members in the defense bill last week was a reminder of growing extremism in the house. california democrat ro khanna emailed me, molly writes. she goes on to write democrats need to do more to call this out and highlight how out of touch the current agenda is with what americans actually care about. there should be less time spent

on conspiracy theories and with aggressive popular policies and more time spent on bringing back manufacturing and lowering the cost of gas and food. all of that from molly's new piece in "vanity fair." a case in point a couple days ago, the oversight committee hearing about hunter biden when marjorie taylor greene was holding up poster board-size photographs of a naked hunter biden to make some point unclear. but that's where they are right now. >> yeah, irn credible stuff. not what congress is meant to look like. this is just part of it. between the gas stoves and the propaganda. look, kevin mccarthy has been tasked by trump with expunging the impeachments, right? that's what he's spending his time doing now, is trying to expunge his impeachments, to placate trump. so much of the house gop is about placating trump. i almost feel like showing

videos of these hearings is so incredibly persuasive and shocking. the stuff they're doing in these hearings is crazy. the things they said to director wray who was republican director wray, you had congress people accusing him of being against conservatives, trying to ruin the republican party. he was appointed by trump. he was originally appointed by bush. this guy is not a liberal. it's just wild stuff. >> so case in point right here, republican senator chuck grassley of iowa released a redacted fbi memo yesterday that some republicans say proves joe biden and his son hunter took bribes. >> many of the same republicans i'm sure agree -- >> it involves allegations made by a confidential informant in 2020 about hunter's alleged business dealings when he served on the board of ukrainian energy

company. the claims have never been verified and even top republicans have the knowledge they cannot confirm whether the information is true. congressman jamie raskin of maryland, the top democrat on the house oversight panel yesterday picked apart the claims in a lengthy statement arguing in part, quote, this fbi document repours the unfair vied, secondhand, years-old allegations relayed by a confidential source who said he could not provide veracity of the allegations. he highlights how the source of the information was at the center of a pressure campaign by rudy giuliani in 2019 and 2020 on behalf of then president trump. when interviewed the source directly denied these allegations. >> this is still dossier squared for republicans.

>> senator grassley admitted, he said the quiet part out loud, he didn't care if the allegations were true or not. take a listen. >> we're not interested in whether or not the accusations against vice president biden are accurate or not. we're responsible for making sure the fbi does its job. >> what? >> gene, again, to lie about a document -- at the time they were talking about i guess impeaching wray or whatever. wray talked to them. again, it's one thing after another after another. durham supposedly is going to show this conspiracy between the fbi and hillary clinton. he makes a fool of himself. you have comer time and time again talking about informants who end up being like chinese

agents or foreign -- i don't know exactly what they are. but they're doing the business of the chinese communist party illegally. they're funnelly iranian oil, smuggling it illegally to the communist chinese. they're illegal arms dealers. you go down the list, and then you've got these other people who are supposedly these irs informants who basically get up there and go, yeah, it was actually donald trump -- when i was complaining it was donald trump who was president then and it was trump's irs and trump's justice department in 2018. here we have a document, again, that's complete nonsense, and you have chuck grassley going i don't care whether he's guilty or not. we're just trying to create chaos. >> right. the aim of all this is not to connect the dots. it's just to throw out a whole

bunch of dots that don't connect, just to try to create this atmosphere around president biden that he must have done something wrong. i'm glad you mentioned the irs agents because, again, this happened while donald trump was president. so if there were interference in the investigation of hunter biden which, according to the council, the federal prosecutor who was leading the investigation, there was no interference. he was able to bring whatever charges he wanted to bring. it was totally his decision. but if it was being interfered with, it was being interfered with by donald trump's justice department. it's just insane, but, again, the dots don't connect.

they were supposed to, as senator grassley revealed, they're just supposed to muddy up president biden and create this impression that somehow he's done something wrong and he's corrupt, because the comparison is inevitably drawn with donald trump who actually is corrupt. they have to try to drag biden down to that level. >> democratic presidential candidate robert f. kennedy jr. testified yesterday before the house republican-led so-called weaponization committee -- >> it's been a bust, too. >> on the issue of censorship the hearing was often very contentious between kennedy and the democrats on the committee who called him a menace to society, who did not deserve the platforms republicans gave him. kennedy has a long history of

making controversial comments, most recently coming under fire from members of his own family for pushing anti-semitic tropes about covid. democratic congressman jerry connolly of virginia gave an especially passionate rebuke of how the republicans were using kennedy for cynical political purposes. >> i've been in this congress 15 years, and i never thought we'd descend to this level of orwellian dystopia. suddenly the tools of the trade are not to get at the truth, but to distract, distort, deflect and dissemble. to disagree is censorship.

to try to correct the facts is to infringe on my right of free speech. no matter what you think, mr. kennedy, and i revere your name, you're not here to propound your case for censorship. you are here for cynical reasons to be used politically by that side of the aisle to embarrass the president of the united states, and you're an enabler in that effort today. it brings shame on a storied name that i revere. >> you know, donnie, i've known bobby for a long time. i like him. i've always liked him. always been a good guy to me, and a smart guy. i remember maybe 20 years ago hearing him give an impassioned speech on the environment, and it was a really, really

compelling speech. gifted, gifted, gifted orator. i'm sure the family members are at a loss about the anti-semitic tropes that he's throwing out there, at a loss about what conspiracy theory after another. we're not going to give their names. mika and i were having a conversation with people who have been friends with the kennedys for a very long time. they love bobby, jr. they love him, love the whole family. they say he's a very compelling guy, very gifted guy. he can pull you in. they, too, are at a total loss about this guy being overtaken by one conspiracy theory after another after another after another. i think for the family members who have sat by quietly all this time, i think the anti-semitic

trope about covid being targeted genetically, i think that was a final straw. what bobby always does, he throws something out there -- like trump, i can't believe i'm saying it, when he gets called out, he says no, no, i never said that. you go back and look at the tape and you see he actually said that. it's always framed in a way where he can pull back if it blows back in his face. what's the danger? what's the problem? the problem is he has said that anti-semitic trope and that virus out online, and for all the conspiracy theorists that are following him, that takes root. it grows. it's jews who pay for that, maybe by being shouted at and taunted on the streets. maybe it's by having a rock thrown at the synagogue.

maybe it's by people going in and shooting up synagogues. i'm talking about anti-semitism in general. not talking about did this specific anti-semitic trope. i'm saying it's so reckless and irresponsible, for people who have known bobby for a long time, much better than me, in fact, it's heartbreaking. >> you said the quiet part out loud. the parallels between trump and bobby kennedy, jr., are kind of stunning. both very charismatic media figures that understand the media. as you said, they'll throw these grenades out and let them explode and then walk away and go, well, i didn't do anything. he's taking the greatest family brand name in u.s. history, kennedy, and dumping all over it. the kennedys have had a lot of tragedies over the years. i can't think of any greater blemish than what he's doing out there. i think he's not well. i think there's something -- you can explain all you want, but

for him to throw out the controversy he throws in the latest anti-semitic trope, i think he's fallen and can't get up. i think there's something very wrong with bobby kennedy jr. going back to one of the earlier segments in the show, god forbid this lunatic decides to run as a third party, the damage that would do. this is a very dangerous guy with a very store read name that is casting a dark shadow over us. >> molly, it's interesting to see how some i guess libertarians or conservatives who are done with donald trump have sort of put their arms around bobby kennedy jr. as a guy by their perception who, like trump, is railing against the establishment, questioning received knowledge and conventional wisdom and on and on. he's doing much worse than that. this isn't new. the vaccine stuff he's been doing for a generation and hurt a lot of people with that, his conspiracy theory about vaccines.

it's been interesting how house republicans have -- i don't know that they've fully embraced him, but they like what he's saying. >> they's plat formed him. it's not because they want him to be president. this is a very craven ploy. remember they want to have a third party not because a third party -- trump may never win the popular vote. he hasn't either. he just needs to win the electoral college. you get a bobby kennedy jr. on the ticket and you get those votes and you could see another trump presidency. so i think ultimately this is really a play to hurt biden. they know the economy is good. they know biden is -- does pretty well and is pretty electable and tends to overperform. this is sort of a desperate ploy to hurt biden. >> by the way, the kennedy family has gone to the bidens

and let them know they do not support his candidacy, and they understand it is being cynically used by republicans, by donald trump, by steve bannon, by roger stone, by all of these people to do nothing but actually help anti democratic forces in america. it's really unfortunate. >> molly jong-fast, thank you so much. her new piece is on line for "vanity fair." donny, you'll be back in the fourth hour with another issue of "brand up brand down." >> looking just as sharp. >> just what i do in the fourth hour, by the way, i take my tie off. >> no. >> i do because i want people to understand the branding of "morning joe." by the fourth hour things are more relaxed. i'll be back, but i won't have my tie. >> what you're saying is that's going to help you out in the hamptons tonight, right?

>> yeah. >> still ahead on "morning joe" -- that's stupid. a big concern over the growing use of unregulated artificial intelligence tools. a number of top tech firms have committed to meet a new set of ai safeguards. we'll speak with national security council spokesperson john kirby about the agreement brokered by the white house. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. we heard a lot about the bidens, the bidens, the biden family, biden associates. bidens, plural, the s, what does the ap apostrophe mean. but not joe biden. why? he didn't do anything. this has nothing to do with him. my colleagues talked about foreign countries, foreign entities, trying to make it all scary for the american people. of course president trump got $5.4 million from the chinese while he was president because they were leasing space in trump tower. he goes out and air kisses

president xi, totally perfect. jared kushner gets $2 million from the saudis even though he oversaw mid east peace. ivanka trump is doing business with the chinese while she's working in the white house. totally beautiful. why do i bring that up? they want to say you have credibility. the problem is they have none, they have no credibility. because you're here at their behest, their lack of credibility questions your credibility, nopt because of you personally, but because of what they've done over the last several years. done over the last several years. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. now you get out there, and you make us proud, huh? ♪ bye, uncle limu. ♪

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welcome back to "morning joe." 7:33 here on the east coast. beautiful live picture of the united states capitol on a friday morning. since russia's exit from the black sea grain deal on monday, attacks on ukrainian port cities

have intensified with the city of odesa being struck by missiles every night. its goif nor saying russia has switched to attacking agricultural targets in the area. one strike on an odesa grain terminal destroyed 100 tons of peas and 20 tons of barley. ukraine is countering with its own. it would consider any ships making for ukraine ports to be carrying military cargo. the next day ukraine said it would view ships the same way if they're bound for russian or russian-held ports. joining us now, national security council coordinator for strategic communications at the white house, retired rear admiral john kirby. admiral, good morning. it's good to see you. i want to talk about the ai meeting at the white house in just a moment. but an update from you, sir, about what's going on in ukraine. i know a $1.3 billion package was announced by the white

house, more funding going to ukraine. the cluster munitions provided by the united states being used by the ukrainian military in the eastern part of the country. how is this much-talked-about counteroffensive for ukraine going? >> thanks, willie. every day they make a little progress. in some cases it's a dozen or so kilometers a day, whether that's up around bakhmut or further down towards the south. they are making progress. it's slow. it's slow for a couple of reasons. they're running into a defense perimeter set by the russians that's quite deep. they're running into minefields before they can get to the entrenchments. going through minefields when you're being shelled is very difficult. they still have the challenges that weather can provide. there's some reasons why they're not as happy that they're not happy, not going as fast or as far as they would like. the counteroffensive is producing vicious fighting all

along the front and the russians are giving it right back. >> the president has said time and time again that the united states is with ukraine for the long haul. i guess the question for a lot of people watching this morning is how long will that haul be? one of our reporters who has covered the war closely saying the proposals from each side with just untenable to the other. to putin, it means getting ukraine's land. to ukraine it means getting back its land. neither side can live with that. how do you see the next six months, potentially the next year? where can there be some movement? >> it's difficult to know what six months it will look like or a year from now. certainly this counteroffensive is not going to end any time soon. i think we're clearly looking at weeks if not months of additional fighting along this counteroffensive and to see if it can make the kind of breakthrough that can force mr. putin to sit down at the negotiating table. as you introduced me, willie, it's pretty clear he has no signs of wanting to let up and

no indication that he's willing to sit down and talk to president zelenskyy. quite the contrary, now they're striking at the grain in odesa and continue deep missile strikes inside ukraine as well as, of course, the counteroffensive. there's just no sign that the fighting is going to let up any time soon. that's why when the president talks about it, he talks about for as long as it takes. we don't know what that's actually going to play out to be. it's important that we all stay unified and resolve to stay with ukraine. of course, coming out of the nato summit, i think you can see, the whole world could see, how united the international community is to support ukraine. you mentioned the big package this week. there will be yet another coming from the united states to support the united states on the battlefield. >> john, it's eugene robinson. it's been reported that ukraine is now using some of the cluster munitions that the united states has provided. >> yeah. >> i'm just wondering how you as

a career military man, how you feel about that. when putin used those weapons, if i'm not mistaken, a lot of people considered the way he used them to be a war crime. how do you feel -- i understand there's a rationale for providing them, but how do you feel about that as someone who has been in the military and who has studied warfare for a long time? >> these are very effective weapons systems. i certainly understand the concerns about them. the president didn't make this decision in a cavalier fashion at all. he struggled with it. i understand the struggle that he had with that. that they are very effective weapons systems. early reports we're getting is that the ukrainians are using them very efficiently and in the appropriate manner. in other words, they're going after russia offensive units

that are deep behind the lines. as i talked about with willie, they have multiple lines of defense. if you can get behind those lines and disrupt their units and actually kill some russian personnel, you can make that defense harder for the russians. every indication we've been getting from the ukrainians -- and they have been thinking us informed as to how they're using these cluster munitions -- are they doing it appropriate, the way the weapons are supposed to be used. they're discriminate in what they're hitting and trying to go after personnel, command and control, those kinds of functions by the russians. thus far, they have been doing exactly what they said and promised they would do with these cluster munitions. i do want to remind you, gene, this is a bridging solution, we'll provide them for only as long as we need to, until we can get the production rate of regular artillery rounds back up to speed, at a level where we can do that more efficiently for

the ukrainians. >> admiral, i want to ask you about the meeting between the administration and seven top artificial intelligence companies at the white house today. they're going to agree to a number of various guardrails as they develop technology. amazon, google, meta, microsoft, they've all agreed to various guardrails, and that's great. i don't want to minimize the importance of companies coming forward and working with the administration to try and create a safe future as ai becomes a reality in our lives, but how does this prevent bad actors? >> first of all, these seven companies are some of the most impactful in the ai ecosystem, and they will able to set standards that other actors and other companies will follow. i want to stress that while all

these commitments fall into three buckets, safety, security and trust. there's some terrific individual details in them. i won't go into it right now. there's a terrific set of commitments here. they're all voluntary. that's for sure. we're also going to work with congress. the president intends to work with congress on an executive order that can pursue legislation, that can help us codify this across the country and also give us the tools to hold bad actors accountable. we recognize exactly the risk we're talking about. these commitments won't cover all these risks, but we are going to continue to work on getting some sort of legislation in place to hold these folks accountable. >> all right. national security council coordinator for strategic communications at the white house, retired rear admiral john kirby, thank you very much. it's good to have you on. happy friday. coming up, we'll look into a major effort to reach black voters ahead of the 2024 election, plus new reporting on a possible charge for donald trump in the georgia election

case and when it could happen. that's all ahead on "morning joe." 's all ahead on "morning joe. ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ ( ♪♪ ) constant contact's advanced automation lets you send the right message at the right time, every time. ( ♪♪ ) constant contact. helping the small stand tall. power e*trade's easy-to-use tools, like dynamic charting and risk-reward analysis help make trading feel effortless. and its customizable scans with social sentiment help you find and unlock opportunities in the market. e*trade from morgan stanley.

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i know you're tired. i am, too. but what if i told you being tired was a good thing when you're a sleeping giant, and needing a moment to breathe is necessary when you breathe life into this country. what if i told you there was a win just on the other side of tomorrow? would you give up then? what if i told you you were the heartbeat of this country, always have been, always will be the most powerful thing it never created. what would you do? how would you feel? would you feel how much you are loved? would you feel how much you are feared? would you realize you've faced more than this already and you've won every time?

>> that's a snippet of an ad by the rolling sea action fund. the pact supports the congressional black caucus. its goal is to mobilize black voters ahead of the 2024 election in an effort to flip the house back to a democratic majority. joining us now, action fund director campbell wallace. it's good to have you. we saw the ad. talk more if you could about what the strategy is to make that a reality. >> well, thank you so much for having me here today. rolling sea action fund is my love letter to black voters. it is really making sure that we understand that black voters are the cornerstone of the democratic party, but also champions of american democracy. when black voters turn out,

democracy wins. for everyone watching at home, please check us out on rollingsea.org. >> that's a great ad and very moving and inspirational, different for political ads. there's a lot of democrats concerned about drop-off in support for biden among black voters, drop-off in support of republicans in general uly, numbers inching up in the african american community. talk about why you think that's happening and what you're going to try to two to combat that in 204. >> for sure. black voters, when you talk to them frequently often and early, they turn out in droves. we turn out 80 -- >> black women. >> black women. >> black women are the best voters in america, most consistent from either party. >> yes. we want to make sure we're talking to them early, frequently. targeting districts that have about 8% or more of black voting

age population because we know that when we -- when black america wins, america wins. >> niccara, is there any geographical focus to this effort? are you focusing on the big metros, philadelphia, atlanta? where is the focus? >> where black people are, we're talking to them. that means urban voters, rural voters. we know black people are not a monolith. i'm a product of this. my family is from texas. my mom is from baltimore. my family is from everywhere. we're going to make sure we're talking to black voters in the north, the south, everywhere. >> niccara, great to have you on the show. just like every other voter, for black voters it's the economy. we god a good number last week. what else other than the economy do you feel black voters are

focused on as they head into the voting booth next year? >> i think we're focused on voting rights, on this extreme security that has now attacked affirmative action, attacked everything about us. now we know we have to fight like hell to make sure we protect american democracy. >> all right. the executive director, thank you very much f b morning. we'll be following every step of the way. up next, jack smith's grand jury. here's new testimony from a person very close to donald trump. we'll tell you who it is, and how much access they had to the former president that day. plus, the state of florida tries to both sides the teaching of slavery in public schools. we'll explain that troubling new standard ahead on "morning joe." " i'm a bear. i'm coming out of hibernation after the best nap of my life...

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time now for a look at the "morning papers." at 54 past the hour, we began in north carolina with the "herald sun" has a touchdown of a tornado east of raleigh. it's east of a pfizer production facility and injured more than a dozen people. the plant produces anaesthesia, and nearly 25% of all injectable medications used in hospitals. officialsay t damage will likely lead to long-term shortages. in illinois, "the chicago tribune" reports they are on track to report one of its largest declines in homicides. according to a new report that looked at crime data from 30 cities, homicides are down 9.4% for the first half of this year. still, the rate is 24% higher than we saw in 2019. and "the tennesseean"

reports the state will allow students to move to fourth grade despite scoring low on the state's reading assessment. a total of 60% of third graders fell short of the proficiency threshold in this year's standardized test, putting them at risk of being held back. parents could appeal the decision if they can show their child has performed better in another reading assessment or that they faced hardships around the time the standardized test was administered. and still ahead on "morning joe," house minority leader hakeem jeffries with some harsh words for his republican colleagues on the heels of several gop-led hearings this week. we'll play that new sound for you. plus, donald trump appears to issue a new threat when asked about the possibility of jail time stemming from special counsel jack smith's investigation.

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the republican hearings that have unfolded over the last few days and throughout this entire congress are a malignant clown show that are not designed to address issues that impact the health, the safety, and the economic well-being of the american people, but instead peddle outlandish and out-of-control conspiracy theories. >> you know it's so true. that's house leader hakeem jeffries not holding back. willie, i thought the reference to my favorite punk band, insane. what was it? malignant clown show. >> malignant clown show. >> malignant clown show. best 1990s punk band out there. >> a close cousin, joe, to the

insane clown posse out of detroit. >> but still, that ain't malignant clown show. >> he makes a good point. this comes as a top republican in the senate releases an fbi memo that fails to prove any -- any of the accusations against president joe biden and his son, hunter. >> the people said, oh, how nice. the republicans now have their own steele dossier. >> plus, kevin mccarthy responds to reporting that he made a promise to donald trump as an olive branch because the house speaker has not publicly endorsed trump's 2024 campaign, and speaking of the former president, we'll play for you his ominous comments that seem to be calling for a january 6th-style response to his legal excuse. >> here's the problem. willie -- >> there are a lot of problems there. th. >> he needs to read the room. this does not help him with jack

smith. i don't know. >> no. >> maybe this helped him with a contract dispute in new jersey when you throw words around like that. >> threatening stuff. >> it doesn't help with jack smith, does snit. >> no. i had the same thought when i heard that last night which is, you're about -- likely about to be indicted for -- part of the indictment for inciting a riot. it will be wild getting everybody else to go to the capitol, and now you're sort of implying your supporters might do that again if the justice department does, in fact, indict you. not the best legal strategy though. i don't even know which lawyers he has around him anymore, if they can mention that to him, but it doesn't appear to be breaking through any legal advice he may be getting. he's just going to keep being him. >> yeah. >> it's a malignant clown show. >> with us, we have former white house director of communications for president obama, jennifer palmieri, pulitzer prize-winning columnist and msnbc political

analyst, eugene roberts, and sam stein filling in for the very, very, very lazy jonathan lemere. i mean -- >> jeez. >> your words. >> yeah. so lazy. >> this might be the second -- >> the second day in five years he's taken off? i don't know. >> we have sam, and what do we call that? a malignant clown show. >> no, stop. that's terrible. >> i'm joking. so we have everybody whining about how joe biden's going to do so terribly, and we have everybody whining about a third party candidate. we have everybody whining about everything because this is what the democrats do. it's the obama administration when their campaign talked about bedwetting. the polling shows donald trump losing -- losing by five points

to joe biden 49% to 44%. another one came out which said it calls it a brutal poll showing joe biden crushing donald trump even with a third party candidate. >> well, that's the interesting part here. despite having some concerns about both president joe biden and former president donald trump, new polling shows most americans are not open to voting for a third party ticket in 2024. in the latest university survey, just 30% of registered voters say they would definitely or probably consider voting third party if biden and trump are the leading names on the 2024 ballot. as for how a nameless third party ticket could impact a 2024 rematch between the current and former president, the poll shows it may actually help biden. without a third party option, the survey shows biden beating trump by 7 points.

with a third party ticket on the ballot, biden's victory over trump grows to nine points. 37% to 28%. >> so -- so willie, looking at this, i mean, first of all, this is like a day we have polls up. joe biden easily beating donald trump. thumping on, and on this third party, we think it's going to hurt joe biden, it's going to hurt joe biden. it doesn't look that way. it doesn't look this way in some other polls. people are saying, i don't like donald trump at all. give me another option. i'll never vote for joe biden. i'll never vote for a democrat, but give me a third party option, and we actually see there, there's some actual softness in donald trump's numbers, and joe biden looking better than ever. >> yeah, that cuts against the conventional wisdom, everything we have been hearing which is if someone like joe manchin were to jump in the race, it would only hurt joe biden and help to get donald trump re-elected to be president.

jen, i'm curious how you read into those numbers because every other poll we've seen says people don't like the matchup. they don't like their choices. they don't want donald trump against joe biden, and they don't want to see this movie again, and yet when you actually put the question directly to them, 30% of them want to see a third party, but it actually helps joe biden, and again in that head to head, and i think it was seven points again, the one we saw yesterday was five points. you have joe biden up seven points and this monomyth poll, and all the panicking that's been going on in the democratic party, those numbers at least in these last several polls look pretty good for joe biden. >> so i was just looking at my phone because i already have two text messages from democrats who i don't like to use the term bedwetting because i find it crude, but are very -- who are freaking out about this poll because that is what democrats do, joe. you're right. we do freak out, but it's also why they're still republic standing, because we overworry about elections and what's going to happen in them.

this -- this is interesting. i'm not sure that i trust it. it's the first time i've seen a poll where there is a third party option that did benefit biden as opposed to trump, although -- or at least just didn't hurt biden, but there is, you know, but there is a lot of concern that if you have -- that trump's numbers and every other poll that i have seen has shown this, are have strong, and if people have a third party option, that that is likely to take away from biden because he is winning over disgruntled republicans and independents over. now continuing in the role of the party pooper for democrats, i'll say talking about the poll from yesterday which had biden winning 49-45 over trump, that's a national poll. that's great. when you look at battleground states and i'll use wisconsin as an example, you know, you got to get to 270. these states are not static.

they're changing, and so wisconsin for example, has a higher level of white, non-college educated voters in 2024 than it had in 2020, that cohort of voters, you know, has favored trump as opposed to biden. so these poll numbers are all great, but, you know, you still have to -- you still have to get to 270, and there's concerns about when you look underneath the hood what those numbers are going to be like in each of these battleground states and then in terms of the third party, you know, great, only 30% are open to voting for a third, you know, either a third party option, but jill stein only needed to get very small digits of support in wisconsin, michigan, and pennsylvania to win the election for donald trump. so i think third party remains a very, very significant threat to joe biden. >> yeah. >> yeah.

>> the ptsd is strong with this one. >> there's no -- it's just traumatic stress. >> exactly. >> it is traumatic stress. sam, why didn't she just say on the two best days of polling for joe biden, why didn't she just say we don't deserve good things? republicans say, we may not deserve it, but we're going to take it, but when you see these polls, you look at them and go, this is a trend line in a positive direction. happy days are here again. when i look at wisconsin, what do i see? i see a judges' race that conservatives call the most important race in that state in a decade, and democrats win by 11 points, yes. things are not static. things are breaking. maybe it's because i'm not a democrat. i'm still an independent, so i'm not overly negative yet.

things are breaking, in democrats' way. they won by a landslide in wisconsin in supreme court judicial race, what republicans call the most important race of their time. democrats won this kansas. they won -- they won in kentucky on abortion. they have so many things that are breaking their way, not just the indictments, but the roe -- the overturning of roe. so many things good going in their direction, and donald trump is looking crazier and crazier every day. that's why -- i don't talk about national polls usually. i talk about the suburbs of atlanta. they'll never go for trump again. the suburbs of philly. they'll never go for trump again. the suburbs of detroit, they'll never go for trump again. the suburbs of milwaukee, they'll never go for trump again, especially post-roe, and i hope the power of positiving this did not trigger jen or any of the other democrats out there, but look. it's okay to be happy.

it's okay to smile. >> no, it's not. >> it's okay to be positive, sam. >> no, it's not. >> it's not, okay. >> let me just agree with jen. bedwetting is a crude, disgusting term. it should be banished from the air waves. let's never mention it again, and secondly, jen did make a, you know, i think a very valid, if not, maybe cup half empty case for being -- for democrats heading into 2024. it is a race in certain states. it's not a national race. you have to look at wisconsin and pennsylvania. this i guess will be a question i would sort of direct to eugene here which is, you know, if you look at that third party ticket, right? and you're scared about it, there is not -- you have to look at two third party tickets. there's the manchin one that's no labels. it would draw centrist and maybe republicans who would be open to biden. it could draw them away from biden, but the other one is a

cornell west type who could take a couple of percentage points in critical states away from biden in what jen is, you know, reliving a sort of, like, jill stein scenario, right? i don't want to trigger it again, but that is what happened. you are plugged in, gene. which one do they actually fear the most, right? do they fear the manchin-type run or do they fear the cornell west small percentage points liberal enthusiasm being just drained from them? >> well, the answer of course, because they're democrats is both, but before i get to that though, let me -- i'm shocked that we haven't yet mentioned -- we're, what? 12 minutes into the show, and we haven't mentioned the one real big story in washington today which is the nfl owners approved the sale of the washington football team, the commanders from dan snyder to josh harris.

our long national nightmare is over, and, you know, everything is bright and sunny again. so -- >> yes. >> okay. >> malignant clown show is over. so let's all, you know, so how can anybody have negative thoughts on a day like that? that's just -- it's amazing. >> good question. >> third party -- my general view has been that a third party would probably hurt joe biden, but now we have some data indicating maybe it wouldn't. i think that's a good thing, and i think -- i think it's just been good for biden, and i'm perfectly willing to say, you know, great, and spend the day not worrying.

my resolution for today is not to worry and to celebrate the end of a terrible era here in washington football. >> there you go, gene. that's the spirit. yeah, it's been almost a quarter of a century under the snyder family with the redskins/commanders and now it officially is over, gene. congrats to you. we were talking about this interview that donald trump did earlier this week that was in iowa. a radio show in iowa. the former president was asked about the possibility of jail time stemming from special counsel jack smith's investigation. here is trump's answer. >> is it something that concerns you of, you know, of the people making sure that they don't go out of their right mind if something like that happens? because i know what i'm thinking of could happen if that for example, they do say jack smith says, okay. i'm going to put donald trump in jail. >> i think it's a very dangerous thing to even talk about. >> okay. >> because we do have a tremendously passionate group of

voters, and i mean, maybe, you know -- maybe 100, 150, i've never seen anything like it. much more passion than they had in 2020, and much more passion than they had in 2016. i think it would be very dangerous. >> joe, much more passion than they had in 2020, implying it could be worse than the 2020 election. appallingly dangerous stuff given the recent history in this country, and also as i pointed out earlier, very stupid as he perhaps comes under indictment around the 2020 election. >> i don't know if donald trump understands -- >> what do you think he's doing? >> he's talking like a mobster. >> yeah. >> it would be a shame -- it would be very dangerous for jack smith. >> wouldn't want another riot. >> and they're more dangerous now than they were in 2020 or 2016. >> could be worse. >> gene, he's just so stupid. it really is.

>> yeah. >> he just doesn't understand. he's going up against the feds. he doesn't understand that he can't bully and bluster and threaten his way out of criminal charges that are coming because he broke the law, because he stole nuclear secrets, because he stole secret plans to attack iran, because he stole secret military secrets because he has people all around him -- all around him on january the 6th who are testifying against him. no democrats. no moderate republicans. all trumpers. all the trump -- everybody that he ever hired has gone before the grand jury. everybody that was around him january the 6th went before the grand jury. all trumpers, and he's going to be charged for some of the most serious crimes in america, and his response -- his response, instead of talking to his lawyers saying, hey.

get me a deal. i don't know what it's going to look like, but get me a deal because they've got me there. my own people are the people testifying against me. instead of that, he goes on an iowa radio show and like a mobster, threatens jack smith. has he not looked at pictures of jack smith? this guy looks like the judge on andor, all right? >> yes. >> he looks like the guy that takes the good guy from the "star wars" galaxy and throws him into jail for life. he doesn't understand -- oh my god. look at him. i'm scared. you just scared me by putting this picture up. >> yeah, yeah. >> does he think jack smith is going to be intimidated by mob-like threats, gene? >> yeah. and that's not going to happen. jack smith looks like a pretty intense guy, and he looks like he's not going to take any of this from donald trump.

i think trump doesn't know what else to do. he obviously sees the walls closing in on him. the indictments coming. someone must have told him or let him know what the conviction rate is in federal court which is well over 90% of defendants who are charged either plea guilty or get convicted, and it is -- this is a tough situation for him and rather than -- than make a deal and rather than try to, you know, somehow keep his freedom, he does this. it can only make things worse for him. coming up, the grand jury investigating donald trump's alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 election hears from a former white house aide who was with the president on january 6th. we'll have that new reporting next on "morning joe." w reporti next on "morning joe."

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and once-in-a-lifetime. will russell's one of the president's bodymen. he's the one that carried, you know, tic tacs and a comb and was around the president to ensure that administrative tasks like that were fulfilled, and he isdy de -- is depicted in photographs and he was in the ellipse to the oval office on january 6th. >> that was the latest witness to appear before a federal grand jury hearing about the insurrection and donald trump's attempts to overturn the 2020 election. william russell testified yesterday. he's a longtime aide to the former president who was reportedly by trump's side for most of the day on january 6,

2021, although he has previously testified before the grand jury. his level of cooperation is unclear since he still works for the trump campaign. we did though get a possible hint as to why prosecutors are questioning him in a bizarre scene that played out during an unrelated court proceeding. in the same building where russell was being questioned, his lawyer showed up late for a hearing for a different client. >> oh, wow. busy lawyer. what was it, like, bank fraud? what was it? >> no, it was a client who was sentenced for his role on january 6th. the lawyer said he didn't want to leave russell alone with the special counsel's prosecutors because his client was, quote, being asked questions which potentially involved executive privilege. that could indicate that the doj is questioning russell to help piece together trump's words and

actions from the day of the insurrection. the judge then sent a u.s. marshal to summon the doj's prosecutors to the courtroom where they had a tense, private discussion at the bench. >> that's fascinating. >> let's bring in congressional investigative reporter. she's an msnbc contributor and what else do you know about william russell and what he might be sharing with the federal grand jury? >> yeah, mika. it was an extraordinary scene that played out yesterday in the d.c. courthouse when stan woodward showed up late to the hearing of a january 6th defendant because of the length of the questioning of his client, will russell. you know, the january 6th committee is now jack smith's team of prosecutors has most likely put together a very comprehensive account of that day on january 6th, and trump's

actions, but there's no one who was perhaps more close to the president during that time period and maybe who knows him better than the bodyman. as we've already seen, you know, for example with someone like walt nada, the co-conspirator who replaced will russell as the bodyman post-presidency. this man follows the president around all the time, knows all the most intimate details and could give a really clear and detailed, insightful view into trump's mindset on that day. there were already countless other people, witnesses who have testified to the jack smith's team. we know that for example during the january 6th committee, we heard from people, these are all aids who detailed some of the events leading up to the january 6th rally where trump

whipped them up prior to attacking the u.s. capitol, where trump was on the phone with former vice president mike pence at the time then-vice president, head of the electoral certification. we had people who had said that trump -- the conversation was extremely heated. we heard from ivanka trump who said that, you know, the president had never taken such a tone with the vice president, that he called him a wimp, the "p" word, but, you know, will russell's testimony could still be very important for smith in terms of wrapping up the final stage of this investigation. >> hey, jackie. it's sam stein here. i want to talk about sort of a side figure in all this. the attorney stan woodward who seems to represent basically everyone in trump world in these various charges that they're facing. he was involved in a weird situation yesterday involving william russell from one trial to another. i haven't been able to kind of

wrap my head around this, but i'm sure you have. how does having one connective tissue defense attorney impact these types of cases, if at all? >> yeah, sam. well, it's certainly a head-scratching situation that is set up, but it's definitely a common one. past presidents have also used this kind of joint defense situation, and it definitely raises a lot of sort of obvious questions about information sharing and the ability for witnesses to kind of all strategize and come to some sort of agreement on testimony, but at the end of the day, there's only so much that, you know, can be done. at the sentencing, he said, i'm

late because the prosecutors -- jack smith's prosecutors were infringing on my client's claims of executive privilege, and that the questioning ran late, and we've seen the court overrule those sorts of claims and ultimately compel these witnesses to be truthful. we've already also seen charges pressed against trump confidants and allies, people like walt for ming false statements. there is a lot on the line here, a lot more so than was for these people who simply declined to cooperate with the investigation. i must note that will russell is not someone that the january 6th committee actually reached out to nor interviewed. coming up, florida's board of education now has approved controversial new standards for how black history will be taught in schools. reverend al sharpton joins us to weigh in and get details on that next on "morning joe." and get t next on "morning joe."

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vice president kamala harris will visit florida today to address the state's new standards for teaching black history in schools. earlier this week, the state's board of education approved new guidelines that includes teaching students that some black people benefitted from slavery because it taught them useful skills. the white house says the vice president now will deliver remarks in jacksonville to highlight the administration's efforts to, quote, protect fundamental freedoms. the speech comes a day after harris visited indianapolis where she blasted states that are banning books. >> and speaking of our children, extremists pass book bans to prevent them from learning our true history. book bans in this year of our lord 2023. and while they do this, check it

out. they push forward revisionist history. just yesterday in the state of florida, they decided middle school students will be taught that enslaved people benefitted from slavery. they insult us in an attempt to gaslight us, and we will not stand for it. >> joining us now, the host of msnbc's "politics nation," president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton. rev, good morning. i had to dig in and read this because i thought the headline couldn't be true, but here it is. one section that reads, slaves developed skills which in some instances could be applied for their personal benefits. i never thought i would see both sides-ism of slavery taught in public schools. >> well, it is not only insulting. it is humiliating, and it really is dangerous because it will instruct young people if it is

allowed to go forward, not only of a distorted version of american history, but it robs us from seeing where we are. when you see the vice president going to florida today to really give national spotlight to this, it shows also how far the country's gone that you have a first-time in the history of the country, a woman and a black woman, a woman of color as vice president that came from a history of slavery. so to distort how brutal slavery is is like saying an abused woman, a man say i abused her because i was trying to get her bad lineage out of her, other family curses out of her. i mean, it is absolutely absurd, insulting, and it is not only a distortion of american history, but it robs from us the progress that we have made, therefore, the progress we must continue, and i couldn't think of anything their egregious to do to young

people. i'm glad that the vice president is going to underline this. >> i tell you of both sides-ism, rev. you actually have also the requirement for teachers to engage in both sides-ism, to talk about, like, for instance, the infamous 1920 massacre in florida that actually was described by many as one of the most single bloody days in american history for this type of massacre against black people. the guidelines say that teachers must also teach acts of violence in massacres like this against black people or what acts of violence black people may have committed in that massacre. a massacre against black people in florida because a black man tried to vote. this would be akin to saying if

you are in warsaw, you must teach not only how the nazis massacred the jews, but if the jews did anything in the warsaw ghetto upriing to try to defend themselves against the nazi massacre, you must teach those acts of violence against nazi stormtroopers as well. it's just -- >> ggrotesque. >> it's so grotesque and obscene. rev, it's just unthinkable that this is happening in 2023, but this is ron desantis' florida and could be ron desantis' america. >> it is absolutely ron desantis' florida, and when we look at that he is the most -- the second most popular candidate or as according to the polls, you know, he's a distance from trump, so you charge it's trump or desantis who's brought about this in this country at this time. those of us that want to rise

above that have to really push back like the vice president's visit and stand together. i mean, you and i came from different political perspectives, but stand together. that's why martin luther king iii and i have invited you to be our guest in washington for the march on washington commemorating on august 26th to show that there are people that will stand together and tell the truth about what happened in the country so we can heal. you can't bring the country together unless we are honest about what happened. yes, tell both sides, but tell both sides in a real way. don't try to equate things that are not equal and not fair. you know, joe, one of the things that i was saying to someone last night when i got the call the vice president was going. it's very personal to many of us. in 2007, a new york paper, the new york "daily news" did a

whole tracing of my background and found out my family was owned by alexander sharpton. that's who my great-grandfather was owned by. i visited the plantation my great-grandfather worked at. it never occurred to me until that day, every time i write my name or hear my name, i'm saying the name of the owners of my great-grandfather. that's not our name. we don't know our name. that's the property name of us. that's how personal it is. so to think that my grandson or whomever in my family in florida could learn this benefitted us, that we didn't even know our names, we didn't know our history, and was made to work with no wages and act like there was some benefit to that, it's a personal slap in the face of all americans, and we all ought to resist it and stand together like you and i have, joe. coming up, after a week of

court action from new york to d.c., to florida and more, one of our next guests argues america's new political reality in short, is donald trump full-time defendant. susan glosser joins us with her new piece for "the new yorker," ahead on "morning joe." ing joe. subway refreshed everything. and now, they're slicing their meats fresh. that's why the new titan turkey is proffered by pros like me. and by pros who can actually dunk, like me. and if we proffer it we know you'll proffer it too. i can dunk if i want to. what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ he snores like an angry rhino. only you've never heardeed. an angry rhino. baby i hear one every night... every night. okay. i'll work on that. the queen sleep number 360 c2 smart bed is now only $899.

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>> "ghostbusters." "empire strikes back." we've really moved away from that. i got a sense yesterday for the first time that this is a movie that's really going to draw people back, and this is like the return of the summer blockbuster, isn't it? >> i think there's always a wonderful place in the culture for the big screen. for "oppemheimer" i chose to shoot large film, imax film, and we wanted to put that up on the biggest screen possible and bring people together and have them go through this man's extraordinary experiences, the crazy paradoxes, the great drama he found himself at the center of. you can really give the audience a feeling of what it's like to be present in the experience of what it must it have been like to see and hear and feel the unleashing of nuclear power for the first time. >> but the sound track also played such a central role in

this movie, especially toward that blast. >> it's phenomenal. i think, you know, chris as always used the music so extraordinarily in his movies and south, you know? and i think this -- for me, this movie takes it to another level. ♪♪ ludwig did the score, and his wife serena is a violinist, and pretty soon these incredible sounds, they would take things. they would do sort of horror movie-like clusters, and then coming together in harmony. >> it's always a thrill, and i see one of christopher's movies. you know you're in there, but there's been this incredible reign. you've taken the lead. >> yeah. >> and not just the lead -- not just any lead role, but in one of the most defining figures really of our time. >> it was an absolute gift, and

i didn't expect it, like, i know the way chris works, and i know what he expects. i know the level of excellence he expects and the kind of rigor he demands and the prep he demands. there's so much information out there, so you have to choose carefully about what you absorb. there were so many elements to it, you know, the physicality, the voice, the kind of iconography about the way he walked, the pipe, and there were just details over that period, and it was really rewarding. >> talking about the community. i mean, you guys all work together. emily blunt said it was like summer camp. >> maybe for her. >> i was going to say, maybe for her, but she said everybody came together and ate at the end of the day. >> we had a few margaritas. in terms of the ensemble of actors, for me every single day was a gift. working with emily who i've worked with before, so i think that really helped give the history to -- to, you know, oppemheimer.

>> it was quite a coincidence, this biography, walter isaacson wrote the einstein biography in 2007, and of course, the two connect throughout the movie. the thing about walter's biography of einstein that is h wasn't the greatest mathematician. he wasn't the greatest guy in the lab, but he visualized things like the theory of relatively. >> i collaborated with kip thorn, the nobel prize winning physicists. one of the things that kip taught me is that physics is not all about math. it's also about intuition. the intuition of physicists is key to oppenheimer because it's about relatability. that's an important part of the breakthroughs that have changed the world. >> here we have this guy who's

brilliant, and yet he needs his wife to tell him get in there, keep fighting. seems at times his head was in the clouds. his wife kept saying, fight, fight, fight. oppenheimer had that blind spot. he was an idealist and it may have caught up to him politically. >> in terms of oppenheimer leading the manhattan project, he wasn't the obvious choice. they called him the great synthesizer because there was many things he could do and he could put a lot together. but he wasn't the natural first choice. when they gave him the role, he was extraordinary. kitty saw that in him as well. that's why she really pushed him. they sustained that relationship that they really needed each other. from the outside it would appear entirely dysfunctional. >> it's a really morally complex film where as the protagonist gets closer to goal, it's like

chuck yeager breaks the speed of sound. to get closer you sort of have this sick feeling in your stomach because you know it's about to happen, but there's that great line with oppenheimer and his friend where his friend says can we trust ourselves with this. >> i don't know if we can be trusted, but i know that he can't. >> the key thing when you study the history of the manhattan project and where that went, as you start to look at the genesis of the project, there are a few surprising things that become apparent, the first being that the germans split the atom prior to world war ii. so there's a race that starts as it becomes apparent what's going to happen with the nazi's quest for world domination. they also have the best

physicists in the world. they had to do this and they had to do it before the nazis did it. you want desperately for them to succeed and yet that success is so double-edged and complex. >> can you talk about the timeline of this movie? >> we had to shoot relatively quickly. what we figured out early on is the energy of this story all comes from the performances. so we sort of went back to an earier period in our careers where there's no monitor, no playback, no fussing around. we really put our actors into the scene and just did it. >> when i walk down the set, it just hits you, you know, the reality. they threw this town up in the middle of the desert out of

nowhere because that's where he felt romantically attached to this place. it's always the case with chris's films. the actor experiences the world as the character would, and it brings something to the performance. >> and oppenheimer was a brilliant, brilliant scientist and yet he was so disconnected with what was going on right after that time, because right after the war, suddenly the attention does turn to the soviets. >> i think he was after trinity and what happened in japan, he was one of the most recognizable people in the world. then slowly he had to reposition himself afterwards and figure out where he stood about it all. it's a very unusual journey to take for the actor sort of morally. it was really interesting to play. probably it's much more human because none of us are clear cut and definitive in what we

believe to be right all of the time. >> that was joe's conversation with oppenheimer's christopher nolan and cillian murphy. in our next hour, see joe's exclusive sitdown with robert downey jr. who plays oppenheimer's nemesis louis straws. and watch the documentary "to end all war" at 10:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc and streaming right now on peacock. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe." l be right b more "morning joe.

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♪ high on a hill ♪ ♪ it called to me ♪ it is 6:00 a.m. in san francisco. welcome back to the fourth hour of "morning joe." we begin with some sad breaking news. singer and music icon tony bennett has died. that's according to a statement from his publicist provided to nbc news. bennett often said his lifelong ambition was to create a hit catalog rather than hit records. he released more than 70 albums, bringing him 19 competitive

grammys, all but two after he reached his 60s and enjoyed deep and lasting affection from fans and fellow artists. tony bennett sang with lady gaga, billy joel, frank sinatra, among many others throughout his career. back in 2016, bennett was diagnosed with alzheimer's disease. at this moment, there is no specific cause for his death. tony bennett was 96 years old, just two weeks short of his birthday. >> let's bring in best-selling author curt anderson. curt, you've interviewed tony bennett, talked to him. what an extraordinary iconic figure and an iconic figure whose reach moved across generation after generation after generation.

>> yeah. he was a big star from the old days when i was a toddler, right? i remember listening to his music with my mom in the kitchen when she was making me sandwiches at age 3, 4, 5. so here he is 60-some years later still making records and having this whole new career really that began when he was 70. he did records with cindy lapper and lady gaga and billy joel and others. unlike some of the other not flashes in the pan, but people came and went in the '50s and '60s of his generation, he stuck around, because he was a lovely singer and all of that.

but in my experience, spending an hour with him once talking to him, he was just a lovely human being, which is hard to fake. i'm certain that people loved working with him when they rediscovered him in his last three decades of life, because he was just such a mensch. he had this whole philanthropic side of arts, funding it. he lived a great, long life. of people who deserve to live great, long lives, he was one of them. >> his unbelievable catalog of songs and his unbelievable

voice, this is about a story about the human brain and love, and in his final years there was this incredible set of moments where tony bennett couldn't remember a lot but he could remember his songs and the music. it says a lot about the human spirit. >> it says a lot about the human spirit. it also says so much about the extraordinary power of music. my mother, who had a masters in music and played music her entire life, suffered from dementia. even when she forgot people's names, she would sit down at the piano and could play "misty," a song that i grew up hearing being played in the living room. and kurt, when you talk about tony bennett to somebody that

may be a little younger, they'll all talk about what he did with lady gaga at a time when he couldn't remember a lot of names, but he could remember his classics, he could remember the hits. >> and he remembered her name on stage. [ laughter ] >> and he remembers her name on stage. again, an extraordinary story about an extraordinary man, but also, my god, the power of music shone through. >> it really does. he also never had these dark areas of his biography that the sinatras of the world and all these people of his generation had inevitably, because they're

human. he sang beautifully and lived beautifully, it seems to me. >> tony bennett, again, iconic singer/songwriter dead at the age of 96 after an incredible career, an incredible life. again, just hearing his voice brings tears to my eyes, because he broke through so many barriers in terms of not just his music, but in terms of being a man in his 80s and 90s as a performer having some of his greatest moments on stage, being so much later in life. he just transcended generations in terms of being able to break through with his music. you talk about music activating the brain, joe, and i was there with you with your mom when she would be able to come really back through music. i think, again, it is music that triggers the brain, but what is

music? it's love. that's what tony bennett embodied, joy and love. every video that you see of him performing, you see love coming through his words and his songs and through his music. >> no doubt about it. well, obviously we'll be following this throughout the day on msnbc. let's now turn to the latest news. >> all right. we'll start with politics and grand jurors in washington hearing new testimony from a former white house aide in the special counsel's investigation into the 2020 election. it comes as former president trump learned this week he is a target of that probe. nbc news senior capitol hill correspondent garrett haake has the latest. >> reporter: donald trump overnight hammering away at the special counsel he believes will soon indict him for a second time. >> that's called election interference and it's called weaponization of the justice system. >> reporter: according to two

attorneys with direct knowledge of the letter, it outlines three broad categories of potential charges including conspiracy to defraud the u.s., deprivation of rights and tampering with a witness, and offers mr. trump four days to come to washington and testify. but those four days have now passed, the former president remaining at his new jersey golf club, where he hosted a movie screening thursday. >> it's a big and vicious witch hunt. the real victim isn't me. the real victim is now. >> reporter: in washington, the special counsel investigation continuing thursday, with prosecutors spending hours behind closed doors with former trump white house aide will russell in his third appearance before the grand jury. russell still works for trump's reelection campaign. while on capitol hill mr. trump's congressional allies pushed for a symbolic vote

exsponge his two impeachments. >> it's writing a wrong. it's erasing these wrongs. >> yeah. good luck with it. nbc's garrett haake reporting. and jim, let's be very clear. when donald trump goes i'm not the victim, you're the victim, a victim of january 6th, a victim of all the things donald trump spun up and the hatred that he spewed out. the victims were those cops that got bludgeoned nearly to death and several took their own lives. several will never be the same again. there are also other people that got beaten up and who ran for their lives. my gosh, yes, even kevin mccarthy, who was scared to

death, so scared that he was calling, screaming at trump and swearing at him to call off his mob, his angry mob. and now, yes, some of the victims are the people who were suckers. they were donald trump's suckers. i always say it's like jim and tammy faye baker and the ptl club suckering my grandma and other people to be part of their scam. these people were suckers too, but unfortunately, it wasn't just their social security checks donald trump was taking from them. it was their liberty, because they told the judge as they were about to be sentenced to jail they were only doing what donald trump told them to do. let's be very clear here. donald trump, not the victim. the people that he's speaking to, not the victim. the victims were the cops that got beaten with american flags and those people who lost their freedom because of donald trump. >> you know, it seems like in a

time of disinformation and when trump lives in his own reality, it's hard to see any kind of accountability. you're right when you see the people that rioted that day, a lot of them sadly thought they were doing the right thing. they really thought they were defending the country, because the president of the united states told them. they've been held accountable. now you see finally at the root of the big lie, that in a matter of days he's going to be held accountable too. >> we have a staff writer at the new yorker. your new piece is entitled "finally, the trump case we've been waiting for." you write, this convergence of campaign and courtroom is a toxic mix of unprecedented in

the american experiment. the prospect of trump returning to the white house is an existential one for american democracy, a political test from which there is no escaping. i think, joe, that's one of the reasons why democrats or republicans even who love this country are concerned, it's that the normalization of so many things by donald trump, it is a potential that he could win. there is a possibility. >> this is the case at the end of the day that so many people have been waiting for, because they want donald trump held accountable for the horrors of january 6th. >> well, that's right. this has also been unprecedented already to have a former president of the united states as a criminal defendant, but there's a sense that some of those cases, you know, the hush money case in new york, for example, even the classified

documents case brought by federal prosecutors, those are very significant criminal issues, but they don't get at the very heart of donald trump's offense against the constitutional system in the way that this perspective new indictment does. of course, there's also the issue of donald trump's victims, the chumps who went along with his call to storm the capitol, they've been convicted, more than a thousand of them. yet, no one has been charged who essentially incited and organized and pushed this attempt to overturn the 2020 election. it does get to the heart of the matter, but -- and there is a big but -- you look at the calendar. the calendar is really freaking me out. there's no possible way this is going to be resolved before the primaries are well under way. i think that's a disaster for democracy. >> think about how unfair this is. we always talked about jen

palmieri on what happened on september 15th, 2008, when wall street banks, greed and schemes destroyed millions and millions of people's lives, their savings accounts, everything, bankruptcy, just completely destroyed so many americans. and yet the biggest, most powerful bankers, the people that were plotting and scheming on how to put together credit default swaps so they could keep lying to consumers and keep making money, none of them got sent to jail. here we are with donald trump, same exact thing. working class people bought into this scheme that brutally went up and attacked police officers because they believed their country was being taken away, because donald trump lied to them. they are the ones who are sitting in jail, over a thousand of them charged, and yet the guy

at the top of this scheme, the guy at the top of this lie is sitting fat, dumb and pretty in mar-a-lago flying around the world on his 757 jets. >> the things are really connected, because i think it was that so many americans felt no one was held accountable in 2008 that helped give rise to a lot of the americans who backed president trump felt. susan, you're freaked out that that case won't get resolved before the election. you think that him being held accountable will matter, that it will actually break through. you think that that means the people who have doubted, who have believed the big lie, who have doubted those of us who call them on it, you think this will be the thing that makes

people finally see what he's been saying is a dangerous lie? >> you know, we've been waiting and waiting. i've seen so many moments at which people were convinced, whether it was the courts or something else would come and solve the donald trump problem in our politics. now it seems to me we're headed for a real collision course in which you have the prospect of millions of republican voters voting for donald trump. not only is he the frontrunner, but ron desantis's campaign is more or less collapsing. trump could run up millions of votes before the trial has even begun in this case or certainly before it is resolved in way way or the other. then you have a situation in which the nominee is still actively a defendant in a serious criminal case. it's a game of the clock and the calendar. i think that rather than

resolving the issue one way or the other, as perhaps it might have done had they produced this indictment before 2 1/2 years after the events in question, now you have a situation where it could actually create a bigger crisis in the country when the politics and the law collide like this. >> susan glasser, thank you very much. her new piece is online for the new yorker. kurt, you are the writer of the new series "command z," where a trio of time travelers from the future are given the unenviable task of returning to the year where america crossed its point of no return, 2023.

♪♪ >> this is historic, literally. we'll be dipping into the past to make some critical fixes there that will, in turn, make the future, our present right now, more livable, fair and decent for everyone. >> whoa. >> we're going back to the moment they've determined was america's last inflection point, to 2023. ♪♪ >> you put a wormhole in a washing machine? >> it's a cosmic string generator, disguised as a high-end dryer. it requires ingesting a synthetic substance related to psychedelics and playing the theme song from the movie "mahogany." sounds crazy, right? but it works. >> i have so many questions. >> it does sound crazy. it's all to make a very important point. i've got to ask you before we get into the details of this,

you have steven soderberg, one of the great directors of our time, teaming up with you on this. you guys have a really cutting edge way of distributing it, to get out an extraordinarily important message. why don't you, first of all, talk about the uniqueness of all of this? >> thanks. by the way, steven red the book that inspired this at the same time you did, joe, and very nicely put me on the show. he said what can we do? these big issues of climate change and wall street power and political corruption and all that's wrong, how can we transmit this into a story and a piece of entertainment that will be accessible and fun to all kinds of people?

so we ended up doing that and creating this kooky series. he deci's really committed to t independent idea of making things and getting them out. so he decided instead of putting it on where his shows tended to be, on max or any of the other big corporate streamers, that given the message we're putting out here in "command z" that it made sense to put it out himself. it is available at commandzseries.com, which is a platform created by steven soderberg. all of the proceeds are going to great charities. that's how he's doing it, which seems at this moment of strikes in the entertainment business, with the writers guild,

including myself, on strike and sag-aftra on strike and these big streamers who have dominated the online motion picture and television business for the last decade, no, we don't have to do it that way. we can just put it out there, and if it sounds interesting to you, you can go stream it and pay $8 and there you are. when the internet started, there was all this talk of exactly this kind of thing happening. that's what it enabled. but then these big giants got into the business and suddenly overspent, and that was the place to go. they dominated it, and now they're having their correction moment. so i love that we're out there just as this independent production being absolutely independent in the way it gets out there as well. >> you know, kurt, what i think is so great about this, it looks really kooky and strange.

i tell you, it works, because if you look at so many movies that have tried to tackle climate change, god, most of them are so plodding and self-righteous, so overblown artistically. i think ham-fisted is the best way to say it. hit them in the funny bone, that's where they expect it the least. mika and i were talking about this yesterday. again, i think everybody is talking about this now. >> that's exactly right. >> we're at an inflection point right now in 2023. this is the inflection point. americans either wake up now or they will never wake up. i've got to say, kurt, i've

never an an alarmist on this stuff, like florida is going to be underwater in 15 years and stuff like that. i will tell you, though, this is all moving exponentially. the danger is going so quickly. at some point, we're going to get past the point of no return. actually, i know it's satire and fun, but i think this series hits it right. 2023 is the inflection point. >> well, i share that absolutely with you. and we make a joke out of that as part of our time travel premise that, in fact, july 17th, this monday which is in the show the day that the wormhole in this time travel fable exists. we are at exactly that inflection point. i'm with you. i have been an anti-alarmist

maybe too long. i think in climate and all the other ways that we have messed up our economy unnecessarily for the benefit of the rich are really at a tipping point. we spen a lot of time talking about the threats to democracy, which is also a subject of this show, but these material threats of global warming are not going to get better unless we make them better. that's the thing. this sense that we have that nothing is fixable, well, it is. i think anyway you can tell these stories to nudge people along and get them engaged, it doesn't have to be all, oh my god, you know, it's the end of the world homework. that has its place and should be here. as you say, do it with humor and

satire and have the nutrition embedded within that form. that's the way steven and i decided would be a good way to do it. >> it worked extremely well. >> kurt anderson, thank you. >> i love it. kurt's new series directed by steven soderberg is available for purchase exclusively on commandzseries.com. all proceeds will be donated to children's aid and boston university center for anti-racist research. there is much more ahead on "morning joe." before we go to break, though, we want to bring our conversation to a close where it began this hour, on the life and legacy of grammy award winning singer tony bennett, who has died at the age of 96. nbc's morgan radford takes a look back at his iconic career. ♪ oh, the good life ♪

>> reporter: tony bennett, the great singer of the great american songbook. ♪ the way you look tonight ♪ >> reporter: his music defining a generation with tuxedos, big bands and smokey jazz joints. but before he was tony, he was anthony dominick benedetto, born and raised by a singer mother in queens, new york. >> they said we love the way you paint and we love the way you sing. that's who i am. >> reporter: he dropped out of high school to support his family at age 16, and was later drafted by the army, serving in world war ii. >> i decided when i get out of the army, i'm going to go into show business. >> reporter: he got his big break when bob hope saw him singing in a new york city club and hired him with one suggestion, that he change his

name to tony bennett. ♪ the best is yet to come and, baby, won't that be fine ♪ >> reporter: a star was born. ♪ san francisco ♪ >> reporter: in 1962, bennett topped the charts with his hit "i left my heart in san francisco," winning his first of many grammys. as his career skyrocketed, he also became an activist in the civil rights movement, while developing his other love, painting. >> when you get lucky enough to nail one thing that really looks good, it's really a quiet celebration. >> reporter: but there was a dark underbelly to his success. bennett developed a drug addiction in the '70s and took a ten-year hiatus. he made a comeback in the '80s. bennett married three times and raised four children. in 2007, he tied the knot with

susan crow after the two dated for decades. meanwhile, his popularity continued to surge in the 2000s when he recorded duets with paul mccartney, elton john and lady gaga. >> my whole life i love what i do. >> reporter: in 2021, the sing i revealed his alzheimer's diagnosis. a final farewell, but a lasting legacy. ♪ what i life, i'm in love ♪ >> reporter: morgan ratford, nbc news new york. news new york.

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we have a pretty significant update in the classified documents trial against former president trump. judge aileen cannon just filed a document announcing a date for the trial for the mar-a-lago documents case. that date is that the case will begin may 20th, 2024, in ft. pierce, florida. there are also numerous court dates prior to trial listed for various motions. so a lot will be happening before may 20th, 2024. there was a lot of discussion about what the date should be or could be. both sides wanted something completely different, joe. >> well, they did. judge cannon, of course, remember, she had been roundly criticized and rebuked by the conservative 11th circuit for some past decisions. so there was some skepticism of

her ability to handle this case in a fair and impartial way. i tell you, i think most attorneys i spoke with thought that the feds' date at the end of december was probably too soon, because of how complex the case was and thought that donald trump's attorney's suggestion that it be held after the election in 2025, also unrealistic. i'm an attorney, but i have no grasp of just how complex a case like this could be. when you look at the mountains of evidence that the federal government has against donald trump, you look at the files. you look at the fact we're talking about classified documents. it's an extraordinarily complicated case. i must say may 20th, 2024, seems very reasonable.

it seems like a reasonable date. it seems like it's far enough in the future to be fair to the defendant. >> after the primaries. >> but if you're a judge, you're not looking at that. i think this date makes an awful lot of sense. so we will see as we move forward. obviously there's going to be a lot of coverage between now and then, a lot of court dates too. politico broke the news this week that the house foreign affairs chair michael mccall a has asked ken buck to be the lead negotiator for as many as four authorizations for the use of military force. congressman buck joins us now. he served on the house judiciary and the foreign affairs committee. every time this comes up, you know, there are some issues that

come up and you know where democrats are going to be and you know where republicans are going to be. on my time in the armed services committee when this issue would come up about authorizations for war powers, everything got scrambled. sometimes you would have some really left-wing democrats, really right-wing republicans agreeing together for different reasons. but in this case it does really just make common sense for everybody that we can't keep going back to these old authorizations for war and that we have to sort through it. so how are you doing that? >> thanks, joe. i think this is really a constitutional issue. it is the job of congress to declare war and to make sure we authorize the use of military force. i have reached out to the various parts of the republican party. there are democrats who are working on it with us. we will move forward. i really think this is an issue where we could get 350 votes.

now, there will be some parts of this that are going to be tricky and basically that involves the reauthorization making sure that we are giving president biden the ability to move forward with the military force, but it's in the specific way and it should have a sunset on it so it isn't a blank check that we are giving future presidents. >> at some point, this is really an article one question. do we believe that the power of war rests with congress or not? at the end of the day, it's a constitutional question. >> it is. that's really where the rub has been in the past. the executive branch wants to maintain as much of this power as possible.

the congressional branch wants to make sure we're doing our job. but the really important thing to me, joe, is when congress says we are giving you the authority to engage in this military action, it binds congress, at least on a moral level, to make sure that we fund appropriately and make sure that our members in armed services are protected the very best that we can. we're giving them the equipment, training and a very specific mission. >> this lines up with the powell doctrine, where when you have americans that are sent off to war, we know why they're being sent off to war. it's very specific. we understand what goals need to be achieved before they come back home. also, as colin powell said from what he learned from vietnam,

you have to have the support of the american people before you go off to war. again, that's what's so important about this, is congress, obviously, closest to the people, congress should be the ones authorizing the wars. >> i think most americans have no idea that we're still operating under authorization of military force from 20 years ago. i know when i worked for president obama this was an issue where if we had to take military action in iraq, it was a lot of democrats that were concerned about congress not stepping up to authorize this itself. why do you think it's taken 20 years to get to this point? and is this a shared problem

between congress and presidents not wanting to act, congress not wanting to own the responsibility? why are we in this situation where 20 years later we're still operating under these old ideas? >> i give chairman mccall credit for deciding this is the time we've got to do it. we have military forces around the world, but the time we are using the thoughtful process we should be using, i think is now. the reason we haven't done it before is because if a republican president stood up and said, i want to go into this area, republicans would sport him. democrat president wanted to do it, democrats would support it. it was more of a partisanship before. right now there's somewhat of a lull. before anything heats up, it's time to give thought to this. >> it's a great idea. chairman mccall has been a

forceful advocate for freedom in ukraine and pushing back against russian aggression. i'm curious. could you give us some insight? we talked about the spring offensive. right now it seems to hit a roadblock. what can you tell us that's not classified about the state of the war right now, and what are some of the things that you think the united states should be doing moving forward to ultimately bring this to a peaceful settlement? >> joe, the answer to your second question is everything. i think america has an obligation to our nato allies. nato allies certainly have an obligation to ukraine also. but this is a strategic part of the world and an area that, if we had allowed russia to continue through ukraine, we would be in a much worse situation. i think whatever weapons they

need, whatever support we can give them, other than american boots on the ground, i think is necessary to make sure ukraine is successful. i don't know how to define success. i don't know whether it's a pre-2014 border or a post-2014 border, but we need to make sure that ukraine makes that decision, that ukraine has the ability to do the kinds of things they need to do militarily. russia has set up a very strong defense line. that's really why this recent initiative has not gone as well as ukraine had hoped. there are weapons we can give them. we should not be slow walking these weapons. we've got to do this in a time frame that makes sense. >> i'm saying this personally. thank you, congressman, for supporting the ukrainian people. thank you for supporting freedom

in the west and pushing back against russian aggression. it means so much, not just for the people of ukraine, but for the people of poland, estonia, lithuania, latvia, all across central and eastern europe. we thank you. >> thank you. all right. coming up, my conversation with another member of the all-star cast from "oppenheimer." robert downey jr. plays oppenheimer's nemesis. "morning joe" is coming right back. "morning joe" is coming right back hi, my name's steve. i lost 138 pounds on golo and i kept it off. so with other diets, you just feel like you're muscling your way through it. the reason why i like golo is plain and simple, it was easy. i didn't have to grit my teeth and do a diet. golo's a lifestyle change and you make the change and it stays off. golo's changed my life in so many ways.

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♪ ♪ ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ welcome back. all this week we have brought you joe's interviews with the all-star cast of the new summer blockbuster "oppenheimer," which hit theaters today.

here now is his conversation with robert downey, jr., recorded before the actors union went on strike, in which he discusses his portrayal of louis straws, oppenheimer's real-life nemesis. >> so i walk into the screening a couple of weeks ago. a guy says to me, you know this movie is three hours? i said, you know what else is three hours? end game. we the compare three-hour movies. so you get to the end of this, and it's one of the most emotionally complex movies i've ever seen, especially in a summer blockbuster format. >> yeah. it's funny. i mean, obviously it's entertainment. it's a big summer film. but it's a little different from the norm in that i think it activates these constellations of existential dialogue. i mean, we're still living in

the atomic age, for better or worse. >> this movie is more timely now than at any point since the cold war with current events. >> yeah. and, again, chris was drawn to it. like with great directors, it becomes kind of an obsession. then he was casting it. so you can never predict when something you're going to be involved in is culturally relevant. >> the russians have a bomb. we're supposed to be years ahead of them. >> what were you guys doing in los alamos? >> the story requires all of these characters, some of which are obviously household names like cillian playing oppenheimer. then there's the lesser-known folks i found really compelling like getting to play louis strauss, who i think was a

really fascinating american character. >> when i left the theater, i went home and i actually started looking into it. i go, was this really the only guy to get rejected by the senate? he by the senate from like the '20s, he was, he was a very complicated character, and of course he got some things terribly wrong. he also got some things right, didn't he? >> couldn't agree more. that's the great thing about this story is none of the characters are entirely heroic or antagonistic, and so i think all the more it's like, you know, forget this reaching across the aisle. we're all in the aisle, and we've all always been in the aisle as americans, and that time and i study it too, i'm fascinated by that mid-century kind of, you know, the mutually assured destruction era that i grew up in, the rule book, the cover and all that. to think about it, we were raised in this time of immense

potential threat at all times. so that was the undercurrent of our generation. are we back there now? are we less safe now than we were during the height of the cold war? some would say yes. >> and so much of strauss's action in that movie is driven by resentment, wasn't it? >> yeah. >> resentment of oppenheimer. >> i think resentment underneath it perhaps the fact that more people aren't familiar with who he is nowadays i don't think would sit well with him. i think he deserves to be acknowledged for his great service to this country, but i believe -- i just love the idea that a rivalry or a feeling blown off by someone you admire could lead to the kind of actions that occur. it's the idea too, you know, that an adolescent experience about something that has global ramifications is we all knead to grow up and take a little more responsibility for the fact that

it's not about us. it's about this, you know, this planet we share and how fragile it is. >> forget the great history lesson. it's also just an amazing cinematic experience, and yet, i think it's talking about all these things that we can just subtly relate to in just our day-to-day lives. >> i've never had an experience like i had here where the hero that you're following and the usa, come on, beat the germans, you're moving there, and it's the strangest thing. again, unlike the right stuff or a lot of these other movies, the closer you get to the moment of achievement sort of the sicker, you know, you get the sickening feeling. >> whether you're a real student of that period in history like i would say we are, or if you're just someone who's saying, yeah, i know that that occurred and now thrill me by retelling that story in a way that's relevant, you know. when i first saw it, even just

from the first ten seconds of the film because he really knows -- chris nolan is a purist. chris nolan is really in a class by himself for his love of the magic of cinema and how to bring that to an audience and so, you know, a lot of people are saying it's his greatest film. and that is saying something. >> that's saying a lot. christopher nolan, talk about how meticulous he was on details. i mean, i heard down to the coat and the tie that you were wearing. >> yeah. >> i mean, everything. is he like that as a director as far as your movements and what you do, where you go? >> it's a funny thing because, you know, we've been around this american culture for some time. we're used to the people who are very control oriented and sometimes the experience isn't great, but even though he was sure that i should be wearing this yellow tie, he was also incredibly free in his lack of judgment about many of the other details. he said just trust that all the details are going to be accurate

and then we're going to go for something truthful. so for me it was an unforgettable kind of a once in a lifetime thing. >> wow, "oppenheimer" is in theaters today. finally everyone gets to see it. >> an extraordinary movie, if you can see it in imax, see it in imax. >> that brings us to donny deutsch. he's starting with brand up barbinheimer. >> first of all, joe, great job with all the oppenheimer folks. really riveting stuff. >> oh, yeah. >> the interesting thing is there's been a complete pop for double feature buying for the combination of both oppenheimer and barbie opening today, and amc theatres said they've sold 20,000 tickets people buying for both movies. it's just -- it's the first time this has kind of ever happened that people are double featuring. you couldn't have any more extreme type movies. two major blockbusters, and the double feature is back, and you're seeing it in theaters. >> let's talk about the flash. brand up or brand down?

>> huge disaster. this has been the greatest superhero flop of any movie ever. it's done $99 million. just to give you an idea it cost $200 million to make, 150 million to market. they're going to lose $200 million. it dropped off 72% in the second week. no movie has ever been as big a disaster as this. this is the superhero flop of all time. >> oh, my lord, what about burger king? >> this one's for mika. it's burger king brazil. i don't know if you want to go to rio, but the bottom line is this is that in celebration of barbie, they're coming up with what they're calling their pink cheeseburger, which is a cheeseburger with bacon bits on top, special pink sauce that's got a smoky flavor. you get a frosty with it that has -- >> i can't even look at it. >> that has pink nesquik in it, and a doughnut with pink frosting. >> that looks pretty good, no? >> that's disgusting. >> what is store insurance and

why is it brand down? >> you know, this is -- joe, i know how you feel about the yankees and the pinstripes. the pinstripes are kind of iconic. you would never touch -- we see a lot of teams with uniforms that have the patches on them. the yankeess have held off until now. a little known company called star insurance is paying $25 million to have their patch on the yankees pinstripe. it will be debuted tonight. nothing is sacred anymore. the pinstripes will have a patch on it. it's not even like some huge company, it's star insurance. if you sell out, man, make sure it's to nike. make sure it's to meta or something. >> all right. >> come on, i'm for it, good for star insurance. good on them. >> number five, sleep divorce. what is that? >> 33% of all adults say that at some point they sleep in separate bedrooms all the time or some of the time because somebody's stealing the covers or somebody is snoring.

43% of millennials, 22% of boomers. that's really a startling number. a lot of people realizing a happy marriage is not necessarily not making love but sleeping in separate bedrooms. >> okay. on that note, donny deutsch, thank you. >> we're not going to ask you anything personal about that. these are just statements of what's happening in the world. >> you don't have to ask us anything separate, but we don't sleep in separate bedrooms. >> oh, my god. that does it for us this morning. thank you, donny. good-bye. >> bye, donny. now as we close this week, we remember the late music icon tony bennett, and we want to leave you with words from nancy pelosi recognizing bennett back in 2019 during a joint session of congress. >> i want to acknowledge tony bennett, who is here with us today as well. thank you, tony. [ applause ]

he helped -- he helped -- he helped free the concentration camps during the time of world war ii. he marched with martin luther king. he is a true american patriot. thank you, tony.

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right now on "ana cabrera reports," several breaking news stories as we come on the air. an icon has passed away. tony bennett has died at the age of 96. we'll have a look back at his life and incredible legacy. more breaking news, a judge setting the date for donald trump's classified documents trial, may 20th, 2024. why that date, and what it could mean. plus, the expanding case against the suspected gilgo beach serial killer, the murders in other states that now have law enforcement's attention. and later, it's the moment we've all been