the globe. >> it's a joy. >> reporter: messi's debut driving up ticket prices almost 500%. while over 1.4 million tickets have been sold for the women's world cup. the soccer stars aligning, during a special time for the world's most popular sport. >> that's going to do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪ ♪ hi there, everyone. happy friday. it is 4:00 in the east, taking shape this afternoon what will surely be one of the most active, perhaps most dire inflection points in modern american political history. acollision of generational events, that will shape the future of our country's democracy. today provides crucial new clarity on how exactly it will all go down and when.

this morning, we learned the federal judge overseeing the case having to do with classified documents at mar-a-lago, chose a date to start that trial. that is may 20th, 2024. giving the political calendar, the justice department sought an earlier date. they wanted to start in december. the judge rejected a request from donald trump's legal team, as well, one that would have had the trial commence after the 2024 election. our friend calls that a big win for jack smith, who consider for a moment, may 20th, 2024, a bulk of republican primaries will be over by then, with the obvious caveat that anything in politics can change at any time, much less your way. recent history does suggest it's very likely, quite possible that donald trump will be the republican nominee for president by then. on top of all of trump's other court dates across a number of

different cases, there's also a chance that procedural developments could make this may 20th day slide to get closer to the november election. so let's catch our breath while we still can, because we are on the doorstep of a once-in-a-lifetime moment in our politics. that is where we start today with former u.s. attorney general air ek holder, chairman of the national redirecting committee. thank you so much for spending time with us today. >> glad to be here, nicolle. >> sometimes we look at the news and figure out where to start and it doesn't sound real as we say it. before we dive into the details of what we understand to be under scrutiny by special counsel jack smith, what do you think about in these times when you see accountability, criminal accountability, perhaps on the horizon for donald trump? >> you know, i think what you said before, a

once-in-a-lifetime thing. i certainly hope this is a once-in-a-lifetime thing we're going to go through. but this is something that has warped a whole range of things. it's warped our democracy. it has tested our legal system. we look at statutes that have been tried and true for, you know, for decades, for centuries, and we wonder to these statutes actually fit this conduct involving a former president? how does our justice department deal with a former president? we always say everybody should be treated the same, but that is a difficult thing to do given the realities of who this person is. i think we have done a fairly good job so far, and i'm hoping we will continue to conduct this trial in a way in which all other americans would be tried. but this is something that has been truly unique. >> i mean, there is an echo in what you are saying and a lot of

what former congresswoman liz cheney said, that we have never been here before. where a sitting president is the threat, a sitting president engages in dereliction of duty, so brazen and so grave that his own vice president's life is in danger. when you see trump's rather successful efforts to have his own party smear the fbi and smear the justice department, do you worry that the bigger bipartisan indictment of trump's conduct is getting lost? >> yeah, i think it is. i think that he has successfully diverted attention from that which we need to be focused on primarily, and that is his conduct, what he did leading up to january 6th, what he did after january 6th. i'm really distressed by the way in which members of his party have attacked people in federal law enforcement, the justice department and the fbi most specifically. and i want to hear a full-throated defense of the

dedicated men and women in the department of justice and at the fbi, from the leaders of the justice department, from members of the law enforcement community, from members of the democratic party. it comes down to simply that. from concerned republicans about who these people are. they follow the facts. they follow the law. if that happens to be discomforting to a person who was our -- was our president, well, you know, so be it. this is a case, this is a set of circumstances that really is going to test our system. you know, this is system that we find hard to deal with, because the founders never envisioned that we would have such a thing. they could talk about a whole variety of things, impeachable offenses, high crimes and misdemeanors, but if you could bring ben franklin and james madison back and describe this situation to them, they would have been shocked to hear that this is what america in 2023 is,

in fact, dealing with. >> there is a success that trump and the republicans have had in sort of moving the frame around conversations of the rule of law. it was one of trump's earliest endeavors. trump said to his supporters, don't believe your ears, don't believe your eyes shortly after being inaugurated. there's been this effort to really delegitimize the rule of law. you have other candidates now, like ron desantis, who also want to dismantle the fbi as it is currently structured. what are the dangers of this becoming not just trump's view of law enforcement, but the republican party's? >> well, i think we need to remember that we put in place a number of structures and constructive what we were thought were inpenetrable norms, something that was protected and valuable.

the attorney general ed leavy, he is a republican, one of my heroes, and he focused on putting the justice department back on its feet and put it in the appropriate place. the justice department always gets into trouble when it forgets those forms. when it somehow gets itself involved in politics, when it does things on a political basis. and for those people who, for a short-term political gain think it's okay to demonize, to somehow come up with this weaponization committee to look at the conduct of the justice department and the men and the women at the fbi, they are doing long-term damage, most specifically to the law enforcement component of our government. but that will have ripple effects. it will have collateral impacts on how the american people view government more generally. and that is not a good thing. that is not a good thing. this nation is exceptional because the american people believe that at some level, and in some way, the government that

represents us reflects the desires of the american people and is not beholden to particular special interests. putting all of that at risk in order to serve a person who is attempting to lead this nation astray. >> i want to ask you what it is like for the men and women working at the department to see one of their leaders, jack smith, targeted and threatened by donald trump and his allies. i'm sure we have both been attacked on twitter by the ex-president. i think there's something that people don't understand that your family worries, then there is a destabilizing nature to being targeted by the leader of that movement, the leader of the right, a party that doesn't quickly condone violence or racism or anti-semitism.

this is where the right -- i wonder if you can talk to me as someone who led the department about what is available to them or how they are at this moment, where they have indicted -- charged an ex-president and they seem to be on the precipice of charging him again. >> yeah. i mean, this is something that has to have an impact on people within the department. these are strong folks. they're used to being criticized. but the level of criticism that you see here, the unfounded levels of criticism that you see here, are really kind of unprecedented. so that's why as i said earlier, i hope that those people who are right minded will come to the defense of the people in the bureau, the defense of people at the justice department. and understand that these political attacks on jack smith

and other people. i remember after the court author used search of the mar-a-lago residence, the names had to be -- the addresses of those agents who conducted the search were publicized. and shortly after that, a perp decided -- a person attacked the fbi office in cincinnati. so you put people's lives at risk for no good reason. people who sign up to work for the fbi understand they're putting their lives at risk. but not these kinds of life and death situations that are perpetrated by people who are former government officials generally. and by a person that was the former president of the united states. this is something, again, unprecedented. something that we should not accept, and something that we have to push back against.

>> i wonder if we could, while we have the privilege of your time, dive into some of what we understand to be in focus in these final days of what may be the investigation into trump's role in trying to overturn his defeat. let's start with some of what trump is saying. i mean, the thing about trump, and we saw this in jack smith's last indictment, he uses his own words against him. he talked about the importance of how he handled classified documents in that indictment. so we rounded up some sound about trump clearly trying to disenfranchise voters in some of the country's largest cities. let me play that for you. >> we were winning in all of the key locations by a lot actually. and then our numbers started miraculously getting whittled away in secret. what changed this year was the democrat party's relentless push to print and mail out tens of

millions of ballots, sent to unknown recipients, with virtually no safe guards of any kind. they had these lock boxes. they pick them up and disappear for two days. over 8,000 ballots in pennsylvania were cast by people whose names and dates of birth match individuals who died in 2020 and prior to the election. think of that. dead people! lots of dead people, thousands. >> now, of course, none of that was true. donald trump's own election security adviser described it as "the most secure election in america's history." but when you read that jack smith is considered charging trump under section 241 of title 18 of the u.s. state code, which makes it a crime for people to conspire to injure, threaten, or intimidate any person in the free exercise or enjoyment

provided by the constitution or the laws of the united states, what do you think of making a case like that against trump? >> that statute has been interpreted, meaning a person's vote should be counted. that a person should have their vote counted in a way that it was intended. that you shouldn't have -- you shouldn't do things that would have a negative impact on the validity on an election. ballot stuffing, a whole variety of things. so yeah, that statute is applicable here, given what we understand from the media. those around trump attempting to do. when he calls down to georgia and says -- i guess it was 11,en -- 11,780 votes, that was abattempt to do something not consistent with the facts. so in addition to other things that he has done.

you know, as i said, the statute itself by the language, you might say is that something that applies here? but if you look at the long line of cases, the last one written by thurgood marshall, it talks about making sure that a vote counts, that votes are not diluted, that elections are fair. and what was attempted by the former president and those around him was to conduct an election that was anything but fair. and i think that bringing that statute, using that statute, makes a great deal of sense. >> do you think that having -- charging him under that statute, and should he go on trial for that, it seems that that is, in some ways, the greatest parallel to what the january 6th select committee was able to illustrate, which was through trump supporting republicans, who acknowledged trump's attempts to co-opt them, there

was a coast-to-coast plot to overturn an election for the first time in history. >> yeah, it's the same thing as i was saying before, about stuffing a ballot box with votes that were never cast. that has certainly been recognized as something that comes under section 241. this was just a different form of ballot stuffing, to find votes that were not there, and to have them counted, to take fake electors and to try to swear them in as representative of a particular state. there's a whole range of things that were done -- that was done by the trump campaign, by people in the trump orbit, that were inconsistent with our laws and inconsistent most specifically with that statute. >> can you deepen our ability to understand what might have gone on at the department? there's a lot of analysis that

but for the dramatic and rather spectacular meticulous nature of the congressional investigation, which was public in nature, that the depositions were all taped so when they put them together, they could see them. cassidy hutchinson's live testimony was riveting. it was last minute, and it seemed to couch even the department that you once led, the justice department, by surprise. what is your sent-- sense of what happened there in the criminal aspect of january 6th? >> yeah, i think the justice department was a little late in ramping up its investigation, the inquiry with regard to those people at the top of this whole conspiracy. they have done and continue to do a great job with the foot soldiers who were there on january 6th.

i remember hearing people say this is going to be a typical investigation, we'll start from the bottom and work to the top. i was thinking, boy, there is a lot of people that you have to get through to figure out what's going on at the top. and my initial thought was, you probably want to run these in parallel. the foot soldiers are there, we'll hold them responsible. but who put those people in place? who encouraged those people to come to washington on january 6th? and what is all of that about? so having a parallel investigation going at the same time would have made sense. having said that, i think that with jack smith's appointment and speed with which he is apparently moving, i think the justice department has gotten back on track. there -- that puts this investigation, you know, right in the middle of or close to a

determination that the american people have to make as to who the next president of the united states will be, and the republicans have to decide who will be their nominee. that, i think, is one of the negative consequences for that, you know, for that they. as i say, the justice department is upgrading quite well now, but that pause really has had an impact or will have an impact in some form or fashion on our politics. >> yeah, it's a really touchy subject. i have a lot of viewers who are very supporttive of merrick garland. it seems that when you talk to people like harry dunn, who has waited close to 1,000 days for justice, the law enforcement officers who are the actual victims of the violence trump directed to be carried out against them on january 6th, it feels like understanding what might have gone on, if it plays out as you just said, if a trial for crimes committed in and around january 6th isn't possible before the next

election and heaven forbid trump wins and pardons himself, could be a real turning point for our country. is it worth understanding what went on in that delay? >> yeah, i mean, historically i suppose we'll find out what happened. at this point, i know people in the justice department are focused on the investigation, you know, culminating that investigation, bringing charges against whoever is appropriate. there's not a lot of time for a reflection at this point. that's something for historians to have to deal with. but as i said, i think that they are doing a great job now, and i expect that, you know, we will see the culmination of their efforts. we've already seen it with regard to the documents case, and my expectation is with regard to the january 6th related set of facts, you'll see the culmination of the justice department investigation relatively soon. in fact, donald trump had a

target letter, whatever that letter contains, is an indication that we are close to the end of this inquiry. >> we will all be watching that together for whatever happens next. we want to ask you to stick around a little bit longer and ask you about the stunning decision by alabama republicans today to defy an order by the u.s. supreme court to draw a second majority black congressional district there. it's been two years since he told congress that a "hitman sent a mob to the capitol" and we could be on the verge of a federal indictment of donald trump. capitol police officer harry dunn in the next hour. all that and more when "deadline: white house" after a quick break. ouse" after a quick break. my a1c was up here; now, it's down with rybelsus®. his a1c? it's down with rybelsus®. my doctor told me rybelsus® lowered a1c better than a leading branded pill

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we have new developments to tell you about in two states. in the unprecedented assault by republicans on the right to vote in our very democracy. in alabama, republicans are moving ahead with a new proposal for the state's congressional districts that contains only one majority black district. in a state where 1 in 4 of citizens is black. this is in defiance of a supreme court order which said the original map violated the voting rights map and directed the state to draw a new map with two majority black districts. meanwhile, over in texas, that state is joining other republican-led states in dropping out of a bipartisan, nonpolitical voter integrity group. according to "the new york times" reporting on that --

>> we are back with former attorney general eric holder. this is happening right now, and my understanding from reporting on the ground is that they are heading down the same disastrous path. what do you make of what's happen thing, and what is the remedy? >> well, it's sad to see what's happening in alabama. you know, the supreme court -- this is a very conservative supreme court, said you needed to create two black majority

districts. and what the legislature has done, is in the process of doing, is to ignore the united states supreme court. unfortunately, this is what we have seen in alabama historically. 1954 was the brown versus the board of education decision. 1963, governor wallace decides he's going to stop african american students from integrating in the university of alabama, one of whom was my late sister-in-law. so you would hope this would not be history that would repeat itself in the 21st century. but that is what we are seeing. i have also been told that kevin mccarthy, in response to what the alabama legislature has done, he's interesting if keeping his speakership. the margins are very tight in the house of representatives, the republican majority is very small.

and he apparently could value keeping his speakership more than having american citizens treated fairly. african american citizens in alabama have had the power of their vote diluted by the racial gerrymandering, by theracial way which the lines have been drawn. it will go back to the court, and the courts have done, i think, the appropriate thing, including two trump judges who first recognized the problem and ordered that the lines be redrawn. my hope will be this will get back into the court system as soon as possible, that lines can be drawn in a way that is consistent with that supreme court opinion. and black people in alabama finally will have the opportunity to elect a congressman of their choice. >> the asymmetry of the

republican efforts to rig the electorate, and the sort of democracy and democratic efforts to push back against it is just stunning. it takes a lot longer to take their anti-democratic policies to court and prevail, go back, try again, prevail in court. i mean, what is -- is this the best strategy? it feels like whack-a-mole. >> it's difficult, and the point you make is a very good one. that three-judge panel ruled before the last election that what alabama had done was inappropriately dilute the power of black citizens in alabama. and nevertheless, because the supreme court reached down and staying that opinion, people in alabama voted on a map that was declared violating the voting rights act of 1965. we go into court, and we try to move things along as quickly as we can.

and yet, we end up with the result that i have just described. and republicans have proven quite crafty in ways in which they have tried to do undemocratic things. you know, they're all about the retention, the acquisition andry tension of power. even if it's illegitimate power. they will use that to keep themselves in power. i look at what's going on in ohio right now, where there is going to be on august the 8th an election that republicans have called in the middle of the summer to try to raise the level at which the citizens oh of that state can amend their constitution. it's always been 50%. now they want to raise it to 60% in anticipation of a vote in november where abortion would be enshrined into the ohio -- the right to an abortion would be enshrined into the ohio constitution. so there's a variety of things republicans have done to hold onto power.

too many in the republican party have made peace with the notion that they are going to be a minority party that exercises majority power. they are okay, in essence, with an american electoral apartheid. that's where one of our two great parties now finds itself. >> you know, i guess i'm old enough to have been a republican at a time when young republicans, it was before our politics went on all four years. after working on a campaign, republicans would go overseas and help young democracies have free and fair elections, register people to vote. it is time for a domestic democracy project that makes it clear what you are articulating? it seems like the country should have this conversation in the context of an election and see that every voter integrity law is predicated on a law. rudy couldn't find it, trump appointed judges couldn't find

it. so they're all based on what bill barr famously called "bs." how do we change the conversation rooted in fact and make sure that people know when they vote for one party or the other it is a vote for democracy or something else? >> there's a couple things that have to happen. republicans have to suffer a series of pretty devastating electoral defeats to take them off the path that they are now on. we have to fight to make sure that our systems work in such a way that the majority of the people get to select the direction of our government. we need to have greater civic understanding of how our system works. and we also need to interact with each other more than we have in the recent past. it's hard to demonize somebody, or to demonize a group when you are familiar with the issues that group is dealing with. that's why this whole question of diversity becomes important.

we think of it in a higher education context, we have to think about it in a civic context, as well. if you know people, you understand the people are just like you. they want to have good schools for their kids. they want to have a good opportunity at a good job. they want to think that the political system works fairly. if we understand that about each other, and that is the vast majority of the american people. divorce the ruling class from the vast majority of the american people. if we get the american people more engaged, the american people will win. our history teaches us that. a committed, focused american people will ultimately win. >> it's so interesting that you say that. we cover these issues where the republicans are attacking rights. the rights themselves are not

polarizing, right? the right to a legal and safe abortion has the majority support from the american people. making it easier to vote, it's a 70% issue. the issues that political class do not divide americans. how do we solve for that? >> we have to get at the structures that allow for these people who are in office to do things inconsistent with the desires of their constituents. we have to find out ways -- i have focused on the problem of gerrymandering. that allows for people in a particular district to do things inconsistent with the desires of the people that person is supposed to represent and suffer no electoral consequence. if you live in a gerrymandered district, you're only concerned about a primary election opposed to the general election. that leads to inaction or

actions that are inconsistent with the desires of the american people. it puts in place a sense of cynicism about the effectiveness of government. it has a negative impact in our society as a whole. and so my focus on gerrymandering, on the structures of our government, is something that is really important. we have to fight against efforts against voter suppression. what is that all about? people of color, making it more difficult for young people to vote. that is not what makes this nation exceptional or what people around this nation over time have sacrificed their lives for. we want fairness, simply fairness. >> i feel like next time we have to get out some maps and really take our viewers to school on the gerrymandering efforts. we can talk to you all afternoon. thank you so much for your time. >> thanks for having me.

coming up next for us, federal prosecutors ask a trump aide who was by the ex-president's side through much of the post election period about the ex-president's state of mind. that reporting is next. of mind. that reporting is next

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as we have reported today, a judge has set a start date of may 20th for the trial in the case involving donald trump's

mishandling of classified documents by splitting the difference, the judge has scheduled the kickoff of the trial to land smack dab in between super tuesday and the republican national convention in july. setting up the very real possibility that when the curtain rising on the criminal trial of the ex-president, in the classified documents trial, donald trump would, by that time, be the presumptive republican nominee. former fbi agent pete struck is here. it is what it is, pete. you just heard the attorney general say, it's going to fall to historians to figure out why this didn't commence in the weeks and months after january 6th, but we are where we are. accountability isn't a perfect sort of straight line. and the calendar is going --

trump is trying to raise money on being a criminal defendant. >> i think that is right. we are truly in unchartered territory. we have not come across a scenario in our nation's history, where we have the former president charmed. it seems by the time we get to the election in multiple federal and state criminal indictments. so we don't have experience in that. and having the prospect of a trial during the general election, nothing that has been done before. so i think when you look at this, though, that trump and his legal team have given every indication that they want to delay this as long as possible. certainly another request was to push the trial out past the election itself. so although judge cannon has set a trial date in the middle of next year, i could not be surprised that given trump's movement to date that he will take every opportunity he has to try to kick this down the line. in fact, it would not surprise me to see this date in the spring of next year shift to the

summer, and even potentially the fall or later. >> harry, i think there is a question for all of us. trump wants the narrative to be that this is never happened before, because the second part -- obviously, that is a factual statement. but it's also never happened before that an ex-president has plotted a coup against the government he leads, nor has it ever happened before that an ex-president takes classified documents and tells his lawyer to pick out the ones he would get in trouble for keeping. trump is what has never happened before. so i wonder how you think we keep the whole context in the frame? >> man, is it hard, especially in the political system, especially in -- under circumstance where is the doj can't really be trying to combat his bull horn day in and day

out. we have to hope for not just the resounding result of convictions at trial, but then the kind of social absorption of that, and an eventual judgment that, in fact, the 45th president of the united states was a flagrant and repeat criminal. but i think it's a vain undertaking to try to parrot him word for word. he will have his supporters who buy his line, and we have to hope the definitive judgment of the rule of law and society, the way we make those judgments, is otherwise, and it holds him to account. >> pete, i guess on that front, there's something heartening about the fact that a court approved search of mar-a-lago didn't bring about the end of our democracy. the indictment of new york didn't -- there was a small handful of protestors who mostly heckled lawrence o'donnell.

even in miami where trump has deep support, the sun came up and went down. trump was indicted and life went on. are there things that you can read from both sides of this, the danger of his rhetoric and the country's ability to absorb these shocks? >> nicolle, there's things on both sides. the judicial process is going to continue. investigations are going to continue. no matter the amount of rhetoric or threats that are coming out of donald trump's mouth, that will not deter jack smith and his team or alvin bragg and his team. but those threats are real, and they're not going to go away. you have seen every indication that trump, a day or two ago, they retruthed or whatever it was, this very threatening, "you f with us, and we'll get back with us." so that's why i'm glad to see and hear former attorney general

holder raising the idea and reinforcing the idea that we need a bipartisan reaffirmation of what the fbi and doj do. and that it is apolitical and it is in the interest of the american public. but i don't think that's going to happen with trump, and i fear, sadly, that we are going to face increasing the prospect of increasing violence, as we head closer and closer to the election in 2024. >> i mean, pete was super plain about that retreat or repost or whatever you call it when trump amplifies something on his media platform. it's an attempted intimidation. what do we do about that? >> look, first, it is heartening that he -- since january 6th itself, he hasn't really gotten people to mount the bear cage for him or anything even close. so we, you know, note with some reassurance his ability to do it is limited. but also, it's a breathtaking

thing. he was saying i'm bigger than this country. it was like a messianic -- like if you do this, the country will burn. so such a strong kind of a reminder of what is dangerous and toxic about him. to date, knock on wood here, i don't think he's really able to ignite what he did january 6th. >> from your lips, harry litman. thank you both for joining us on these developments. after the break for us, a member of the kennedy family has called rfk jr.'s presidential run "an embarrassment and vanity project." we'll bring you the latest, next. project. we'll bring you the latest, next

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president as a democrat. let's bring in the host of the podcast, our friend donny deutsch. the threat that he represents to the kennedy family brand. explain. >> i'm sorry. much better. >> you look great. better than me. >> look, you know, the brand name is the greatest family name since maybe roosevelt. this is just a blemish on it. i think it's interesting that his second cousin, jfk's grandson, said we don't need another vanity project. that was a veiled connection to trump. these are guys that just throw molotov cocktails out there.

they're conspiracists. he talked about covid was not affecting jews and chinese the same way throughout history. there's always been just anti-semitic rumblings that somehow jews cause disease. a dangerous guy. my big concern is he decides to be a third party candidate. this guy could be -- is as dangerous as trump. this is just a dangerous fellow. >> you know, it's a complicated thing to figure out how to stick your toe in and cover him, because he is dangerous. the trump lesson is continue amplify the crazy. but i want to press you on that after a quick break. 's all this? hawaii was too expensive so i brought it here. you know with priceline you could actually take that trip for less than all this. i made a horrible mistake. ♪ go to your happy price ♪ ♪ priceline ♪

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power e*trade makes complex trading easier. react to fast-moving markets with dynamic charting and a futures ladder that lets you place, flatten, or reverse orders so you won't miss an opportunity. e*trade from morgan stanley we're back with donny deutsch. we had a congresswoman on yesterday who questioned kennedy. i want to read you some of politico's reporting. in her questioning --

>> now, boles is free to work for whomever he wants and all these people can say and do whatever they want, but do you think the public understands that the people behind kennedy's run are republicans and does kennedy understand that the most extreme republicans are using him? >> it's pathetic and sad. there's no surprise there. we could have gotten a room together and said at some point the republicans are going to try to find this -- [ inaudible ] who would have thought it was kennedy? the more you ask question, do we report this news? that is the news, what is behind it, and it's the republican machine, the maga part of the republican machine. >> do you think he knows that, donny? >> no.

i don't think he's well. i think his past speaks for itself. i think he's a delusional guy. >> what do you think it says that the people closest to him, his family, are the ones with some of the harshest rebukes for him? >> i think it says it all. when your family is like, stay away from this guy -- i would love to be at thanksgiving dinner, but it says it all. >> thank you so much. wonderful to see you, friend. >> good to see you, too. coming up in the next hour of "deadline: white house" on this friday, our other dear friend, capitol police officer harry dunn, joins the program for his first interview since news broke that the ex-president has been named a target for the federal criminal investigation into january 6th. that's next. into january 6th that's next.

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there is a difference between breaking the law and rejecting the rule of law. between a crime, even grave crimes, and a coup. [ indiscernible ] -- are not defined by our bad days. we're defined by how we come back from bad days. hi, again, everyone. it's 5:00 in the east. an emotional then congressman adam kinsinger speaking to the police officers who upheld our democracy. there were four officers who spoke almost two years ago, pleading, not for revenge or notoriety or fame, just asking

for justice and accountability. as harry dunn, one of those officers, asked to not only punish the hitman, but the person who hired the hitman, as well. this week, we inched closer to that accountability. the target letter sent to donald trump from jack smith signaling an indictment is likely in the efforts to overturn the election. how did that news land with members of law enforcement who defended the u.s. capitol that day? well, for one, officer dunn, it's complicated. he tweeted this --

>> justice has been a very long time coming. it's been almost 1,000 days since the attack on the u.s. capitol. the light at the end of the accountability tunnel seems to shine a tad brighter with each day. a huge amount of damage has been done to our country, the ability to see truth. the republican party has dismissed the attack and whitewashed it almost completely. leading to this havy question from "the new yorker" today --

>> the search for accountability is where we begin the hour with our friend, u.s. capitol police officer harry dunn. he's the author of the book "standing my ground, a capitol police officer's fight for accotability." hi there, my friend. >> hey, nicolle, how have you been? >> your tweet just was a gut punch that i didn't know i needed to really cover this news soberly this week. it is a development, but it's still a pretty incremental one.

tell me how you felt. >> well, you were playing that emotional clip with representative kinsinger. i wasn't expecting that. that was such a powerful statement he made during those hearings that day. that was -- yeah, that was a good way to lead in with that clip. when the news broke about the target letter, i didn't know what to say, because initially, like you said, all you want to do is -- all i've been doing is fighting for accountability and justice. and now that it's almost here, i thought i would be excited. no, it's not exciting. it's very sobering and it's a sad moment. it made me realize that there was so much unhealed trauma still there, that this band-aid was just, you know, masking the root of the problem still

exists. and maybe only that healing comes with a guilty verdict. >> i have this feeling, too, that we're hamsters on the wheel, right? so we were waiting and waiting for doj to turn its focus to trump in a meaningful way, where people like pence and meadows and his innermost circle was going for the grand jury. now that's happening and we're still -- the hamster on the wheel chasing the cheese we'll never catch. and now we're hearing a trial may or may not commence ahead of the election. certainly not ahead of the political season. i'm concerned about that coverage, right? because it puts us on the wheel where we never will catch the cheese. >> isn't that how it's always been with people's complaints about donald trump, always evading justice. he just seems to skirt his way through it. and that's kind of like where we

see ourselves. so many people are frustrated. what if he does they and successful in that delay, and he somehow is elected president and never faces accountability? that goes to your reference about, we're just chasing the cheese on the hamster wheel. will we ever get justice? and that's what i was talking about. it's been so exhausting, the fight for accountability. you say we're close to 1,000 days. this is exhausting, and it's so -- why should it be this hard to sold somebody accountable for doing something so blatant. it's not like this was hidden. the testimony through the january 6th committee, every revelation that they uncovered, why is this so hard? you know, i defer the legal part to our legal friends, mr. vance, mr. weissmann.

i defer to them on the legal theory. but on the surface as a regular american who just sees it -- what's happening in plain sight, it's almost an abomination. it's a disgrace that it's taken this long. >> you know, it feels like the other thing we have to rumble with is the popularity that he has inside one of the country's two parties, and he's made it partisan. i mean, support for people like you, used to not just be bipartisan, but it used to be the domain of the republican party in this country. what do you think about our politics and what this says about our politics that he still is supported by so many republicans? >> well, that is what is also scary, too. you know, in the court of law, you will be judged by a jury of your peers, and if his peers is a population that's made up of people that support him too, there is an audience for donald trump.

you can't just dismiss there's no audience for them. it's a large audience, too. so we can't dismiss that these people don't exist. he represents a large portion of this country. it's sad, but we have to acknowledge that is still a reality. he represents a large portion of this country. but that's when you just get into the facts and leave your opinions out of the way. the facts are really out on the table perfectly by the january 6th committee. it was just a fact-based investigation. you know, one of the talking points has been that the doj is politicized and everything. no, the crime was a politicized crime that he committed. the investigation is not politicized. so i think people are conflating the two when they are talking about the politics of the investigation versus the politics of the crime that was committed. >> i always think about liz

cheney who i worked with in another life. the most conservative conservative that you can find. she sees this case the way others see it, and they don't have politics in common, just the ability to open their eyes and see the facts. that seems like the best case scenario if you get to the point where there is a jury trial, right? >> yeah. that's what you want. that's what you want out of individuals that are determining the fate of somebody. somebody who is able to see the facts clearly and without any bias or anything like that. and i think that's the challenge, because you have one side that's out here paying the infamous -- the alternative facts versus the eyewitness accounts oh of what happened, and what we heard and saw with our own eyes and own mouths. >> you know, i always ask people that i interview about you. i think about it, because i'm so

impacted by your candor, and you never make it as though you're speaking for all of the law enforcement officers that were injured that day. but i know you do speak for a lot of them. i want to show you -- i asked joe biden about you and about what justice looks like. can i show you what he said? >> yeah. >> okay. you have awarded medals to harry dub and the others. do they deserve to know why it took the justice department a year to open an investigation? >> i made a commitment that i would not in any way interfere with the justice department, who they -- if they prosecuted, how they proceeded. i have faith the justice department will move in a direction that is consistent with the law. so it may take time, but i have faith that they will do the right thing. but i have not spoken about it, and i don't think i should. >> so he's adhering to a norm that is news worthy because the

last guy didn't adhere to it. it is a norm not to interfere with elections. but he says he has faith that they will do the right thing. i asked attorney general holder about you as well and where you and other law enforcement officers deserved more speed from doj. he said absolutely. he said there was certainly a delay. if we are in a situation where trump is charged but a trial can't happen before the election, what do we do then as a country? >> i can appreciate the president's comments about wanting to stay out of it and remain neutral, because that's what -- that goes back to what we were saying earlier. the expectation is not being politicized. so i can appreciate that and appreciate attorney general holder's comments about us deserving to know why it wasn't speedy and why is it taking so long. and not just me, but every other american. america is a victim of this crime.

yeah, some police officers may be victim of the physical crime. but the american citizens, this is an attack on our nation and country. so they have a right to know why it's taking so long also. and the doj being publicer is -- public servants, they answer to the public. what were you saying about the other part? >> no, no, that's it. i think this is sort of the limitations of everyone that's doing the right thing. i think at doj, they're trying to do the right thing and trying to not look political. i showed you joe biden, because when we cover this, you and the other officers are on our mind. i played that kinsinger clip because you have been about putting the trauma of that day on display so that other people can access it. and i wonder how you're all doing. i wonder how you are doing and how some of the other officers involved are doing. >> you know, it's real life.

people have feelings, people have emotions. you know, i didn't think about that clip that you just showed, the adam kinsinger one, until you just showed it. you saw how emotional he was. i don't pretend to speak for anybody else except for myself. but it's something i do say. i'm happy to continue saying it. but i'm going to continue speaking how i feel. it is so frustrating and exhausting to have to continue to fight for accountability. but it's a fight that i'm all in on and i won't stop until it's happened. >> it's the two sides of the coin though, right? it's the ability to acknowledge -- >> my ear piece keeps popping out, nicolle. >> you can hold it. i've had some lighting challenges. i want to ask you one more

question, though. i want to ask you about you. i want to ask you how you do this thing where you do the two halves of it. so you carrie the water for us in being so honest and candid about your pain and your trauma. how do you, as a human, do both of those things every day? >> i guess it's possible to walk and chew gum at the same time. you just be your authentic self. that's the person i know to be the best is being myself. i think so many people in this world try to conform to societal norms and, you know, just be yourself. be your true, authentic self and make everybody else adjust. >> i love that. when the book comes out, i think we'll get to talk before the book comes out. but what is your, you know, do you look up at the horizon? what do you see? do you see taking the message to

a broader audience? we would love to have you on more often. >> you know, i'll continue to talk. even if it's just one person listening or nobody listening. i'm going to continue to talk unand tell my story. i'm thankful my voice has been calming and reassuring, has been, as some people say, a beacon. i'm going to continue to tell my story. and continue to encourage others. there's so many things out there in this world that we can -- that us as humans can do for each other. on a minor scale that we don't realize that we can affect somebody's life. i think that's what i have in me. i've been a public servant for going on 16 years. we all need to be public servants in this life. we're only in this life together, and we need to encourage and uplift each other to be the -- everybody's best,

true version of themself. >> i think what you do is inspire us to do more of that. you inspire us to connect, right? this is not just being our best selves all by ourselves and posting on instagram. it's getting in there, right? trying to feel other people's experiences and pain. you inspire us so much to do that. and if we don't connect, i don't know that we can get through all of these extraordinary challenges. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> like you said, you never know what somebody else is going through. you sharing your story, somebody else may be like, i've been going through the same thing. you just made it so much easier. i've got countless messages, hey, i didn't realize my trauma, that i had unhealed trauma. i didn't do anything but just tell how i was feeling. you can do so much by doing so little. >> i think anyone that's been through trauma think that's something really big, not really

little. but we'll kp having this conversation. >> yeah, yeah. we'll continue to do that. >> we'll get you out of the ear piece and on the set next time, my friend. >> yes, let's do it. >> see you soon, harry dunn, thank you so much. >> thank you. when we come back, republican attempts to whitewash january 6th to the efforts to whitewash african american history. the state of florida will teach slavery offered enslaved people personal benefits. that really happened in america today in 2023. we'll bring you that story after a short break. later, testimony from three texas women about the pain, physical and emotional and mental that they have been through from their state's strict restrictions on abortion care. one of those women, a familiar face to all of you, will be our guest later in the show. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. eak. don't go anywhere today.

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they dare to push propaganda to our children. this is the united states of america. we're not supposed to do that. we know the history. and let us not let these politicians who are trying to divide our country win. because you see, what they are doing, what they are doing is they are creating these unnecessary debates. this is unnecessary to debate

whether enslaved people benefitted from slavery. are you kidding me? are we supposed to debate that? >> that was vice president kamala harris in florida on fire in the last hour, continuing her very public rebuke this week of the whitewash controversial new changes to how black history can be taught in the state's public, elementary and high schools. the 2016-page document approved by the florida board of education on wednesday, includes the instruction for middle schoolers to be taught this -- >> even amid the criticism, board members and state officials are defending the new standards, which florida's largest teacher's union says --

>> this is exactly the kind of specific manufactured, backward steps that governor ron desantis sought out, his law against wokeness, whatever that means, demanded. which florida is notably still blocked from enforcing in colleges and universities amid a federal lawsuit. joining you are coverage, the reverend al sharpton. and also joining us, an msnbc contributor, our friend erin haynes is here. rev, you first. just, wow. >> i mean, wow is almost an understatement. to think that someone would try and say that people that were enslaved had to work with no wages, had their families torn apart, against the law for them to read and write. it was against the law for them

to marry and name their children after them. and for them to try and find some way to fabricate that they benefited from this, is like pouring salt in a wound that we've been trying to heal. i think if anything that comes out of this, it may energize a lot of voters that do not want to see desantis and his cronies in florida be able to nationalize something as absurd as this. let me say this, if they get away saying this about blacks and slavery, what does it say to other people oppressed or discriminated against. so i think that the challenge is not only to fight this -- i've been talking to people in florida and attorneys like ben crump to not only fight it legally, but to broaden a coalition so that all of us can say, if you can distort slavery, there's nothing you won't do. therefore, we have to come

together. >> erin, the -- first, your reaction to it? and then we'll figure out how to fix it. >> i mean, my reaction is this is not about debate, but it is about division. apparently we can't say it enough, nicolle. there was no upside to slavery. this is not what we should be teaching any of our children. slavery was a stain on our history as a nation, but it happened. we have to acknowledge it. you know, the goal of learning is so we do not repeat it. by the way, there are those who are definitely studying this history with the intent of trying to repeat it in some way. those of us who know our history know that this moment is not the first time in our history that the classroom has been the center of the culture war. we know the weaponization of history is nothing new. and it's the same as it's always been. omit the parts that don't feel

good as a country. this is the damage of the big lie, right? it was never going to stop at elections. we allow this to permeate our society, it becomes acceptable in all corners. so science, education, politics, where does it end? when do we say enough? to say this is not who we are as a country, we have to reject the policies of lies. that's what it means and how we got to the moment we find ourselves in today. >> i guess i'll add, if anyone reading the story thinks it's not about you, you're wrong, right? if you are going to say there were benefits to slavery, you are going to say there were -- if you don't think that's about you they're going to say there were benefits -- i mean, there is no one they won't go for. i think, erin, my wish is that

you don't have to fact check them on this program. it's all a lie. and my children is that anyone watching would think they're not next. how do we make sure people understand that? >> yeah. i think that was a part of -- exactly the message you saw vice president harris today in jacksonville. she's again taking the fight directly to florida. she did that on abortion. i think in much the same way she emerged as a leading voice in that issue, it feels like she's finding her voice in this battle on education, and she pointed out just what you are saying. i mean, do we try to whitewash the -- what happened with the japanese internment? or what happened with native americans? where do latinos fit, where does their history fit into a fuller telling of this country's past? if it makes some people uncomfortable. so yes, it's slavery right now,

but who knows where this ends if it does not stop now? and this is what it means to talk about the issue of parent's rights. i talked about this in my latest column. this is an issue that galvanizes parents and voters. and that could make a difference next year. for our society going forward. >> so important to separate all of the fact from the fiction. let me show you more of what erin is talking about. this is more of the vice president today. >> adults know what slavery really involved. it involved rape, it involved torture, it involved taking a baby from their mother. it involved some of the worst examples of, of, of depriving people of humanity in our world. it is a reasonable expectation that our children will not be

misled. and that's what is so outrageous about what is happening right now. >> rev, what do you think this is really about on the right? >> i think this is about playing to a polarized few on the extreme sides of the republican party. to get them to vote. the ramifications of this, though, is that it says, in many ways, when we talk about affirmative action, when we talk about women's rights, lbgtq rights, it negates the reason we need to have legislation and need to have things that are geared towards closing the inequality gap. you don't need it because they really benefited from it. why do we need affirmative action? because there was discrimination. if you tell people there wasn't discrimination, of course you don't need affirmative action or

to deal with studies of latinos, of women, or lbgtq, or anyone else. so if you remove the premise, you get to the conclusion that america worked for everyone, even when we discriminated against everyone, including our own lives. if i was guilty of wife abuse, i was really beating her because she needed to get the bad habits that came down her family tree. i was helping her. it was good for her. if you can spin slavery, you can spin anything. and all of us that could be subject to the spin need to come together. >> no one is going anywhere. ahead for all of us, one of the women suing her home state of texas over its strict ban on abortion will be our guest. don't go anywhere. our guest don't go anywhere. fundamental freedoms are under attack in our country today and there is a national agenda at play by these extremist

so-called leaders. it will be a national ban on abortion. it is the tradition of our country to fight for freedom, to fight for rights... to fight for the ability of all people to be who they are and make decisions about their own lives and their bodies. and we will fight for the ideals of our country.

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this week, the plaintiffs in the lawsuit seeking to force the state of texas to clarify just when a doctor can perform an abortion to save a woman's life took the stand to testify about the impact of that state's near total ban on abortion health care. a warning for all of our viewers, their testimony is gut wrenching and difficult to watch. but we believe it is perhaps some of the more important things you'll see about the severe effects these bans have on people's lives.

-- i was so sorry. i felt so bad. she had no mercy. there was no mercy there for you. >> my parents and josh's parents flew in, because they were afraid that it might be the last time they would see me. >> i don't feel safe to have children in texas any more. i know that it was very clear that my health didn't really matter. but my daughter's health -- that's heart breaking. >> i know what happened to me is happening to people all across the country. so many people are being hurt by similar bans. >> it's happening right now, in our country, right now.

the question is, what do we do about it? go to court to get these brutal, draconian laws changed, it was excruciating. one witness began to vomit from the stress and trauma of recounting what happened to her and her daughter. the attorney for the state repeatedly objected over the most minor details of the plaintiff's testimony. and asked each of them if the texas attorney general had personally denied them an abortion. the lead plaintiff said the state of texas said she should not be able to sue at all because an abortion ban wouldn't apply to her. here is her describing the ordeal of the day. >> i survived sepsis, and i

don't think today was much less traumatic than that. >> joining our conversation is the lead plaintiff in the lawsuit against texas' near complete abortion ban. amanda, thank you for being here. >> thanks for having me back. good to see you. >> we talked to harry dunn earlier about the trauma he feels about january 6th. i feel like there's a through line in the extreme policies and politics of the right, retraumatiing what has to be the most horrific loss of your life. you lost your baby girl willow, who you were pregnant with and wanted desperately. and having to defend the right of other women to access health care has to be retraumatizing you and that loss of your daughter. how do you do that? >> it's a good question. at this point, i truly feel like

it's my responsibility to stand up for all the people in this country who are being harmed. i said before, i know there are so many people that can't speak up or won't speak up, and i can. i think it's critical that we continue to have these conversations and we continue to make this sh issue at the forefront of american's minds. i have the support of americans all over the country, so i take their support and i keep going. >> you know, there is something about you and your story that really triggers the right. i know there are attacs against you that are becoming more personal and more intense. i think they're triggered by you because you wanted this life. you were pro this life. but you almost died because of

the right's extreme abortion bans. what do you think it is that really bothers the right in your state and around the country about your story? >> i think you're exactly right. i think i make the right very uncomfortable. i think it's because i don't fit into the box that they want an abortion seeker to fit into. they have tried to paint a stigma of what a person who seeks an abortion looks like. i simply do not fit into that box. i don't fit the stigma, and i make them very uncomfortable. to deal with me, they try to silence me and try to pretend like my story isn't real or is extremely rare when, in reality, what we are seeing is stories like mine are becoming more and more common when they're entirely preventable. >> what is it that you sort of carry with you, when the cameras are on, and you're having to

publicly recount one of the most tragic days of your own life? how do you do that part of it? >> that's a good question. some days i don't know, honestly. but as i mentioned before, i really do feel like this is my responsibility. i feel like there are a lot of people counting on me and counting on my fellow plaintiffs and this lawsuit, and i take that very seriously. you know, i know that i need strength to speak up for others, and i just pull myself up and i do it because i know people need me to. >> what do you think, do you feel rewarded when you see that public opinion and support for legal abortions is -- i think it's higher than ever, certainly higher than it's been in a couple of decades. >> umm, i definitely feel optimistic. it's disheartening that it took getting to this point for people to change their hearts and

change their minds. unfortunately, we have had to go through some pretty backwards times in order to get here. but i do feel optimistic moving forward. i think there's a lot of movement and a lot of people willing to fight. >> do you feel like -- i feel like it was this thing that was hidden from pollsters. i can't believe it was, because everyone knows a woman or loves a woman or has been loved by a woman. but they underestimated how women and men would vote on this issue. it's not a thing that has to be in or out of the news for people to be suffocated. the idea that basic health care is not available to women in your state and dozens of states now. do you feel like people are coming closer to understanding how seismic this was to overturn roe? >> i do. and that's why we keep talking about it. i am encouraged that people will vote on this issue, because, you

know, i think we're seeing for one of the first times in our history, at least in my lifetime, we had a right that we had fought for, and it's been taken away from us. we have to fight again to get it back after we have already had that fight. and we won that fight. i don't know that we have seen that before in modern history. i think the same thing is happening with affirmative action. as a result, i think people are going to start voting on these issues. >> what is next for you and your family? you talk on the stand about having the support of your husband and your family. when the cameras are off, how do you guys support each other? >> we're very close. we're close to our family, even though they're in indiana. we call our moms and our dads and siblings daily, sometimes multiple times a day. and josh and i just try to unwind, you know. we have our shows and our

activity that we call brain bleach when we have a rough day. we'll turn on "ted lasso" or whatever makes us feel good. just knowing we have the support of one another and our families means everything to us. >> will you try to grow your family some way in the future? >> yes, definitely. we are actively pursuing a number of options, so we are very excited and cautiously optimistic about the future. >> i hope you feel all of the support for all of those efforts, personal and your activism from all of our viewers. you resonate with every one of us, including me. when we see you out there fighting for other women and other families, it's great to get to talk to you one on one. thank you very much for making time for us today. >> absolutely. i'm happy to be here. and as long as there's a fight, i'll keep suiting up. so i appreciate your support. >> we'll keep calling you in to

talk about it. thank you so much. taking a quick break. we'll be back to react to everything we talked about this hour in a minute. don't go anywhere. n a minute don't go anywhere.

we are back with my panel. erin, the answer to every question i've asked everyone who has been on this show is to vote hike our democracy depends on it, right?

whether it was former attorney general eric holder on redirecting or amanda on extreme abortion policies. there's harry dunn on accountability for plotting an insurrection, as one does if they're a republican. it feels like we're just building toward this incredibly consequential campaign here. >> absolutely. i mean, listen, in 2022, we said that abortion was on the ballot, and i think that the same is true headed into 2024. nicolle, you mentioned amanda. she's an american who saw what was happening in her country and said this is not okay. you know, she doesn't want her family or friends, she doesn't want her neighbors, colleagues, fellow texans to think she's okay with this ban. even though this is a situation she never wanted to find herself in, here she is telling her story because she doesn't want other people to be okay with it

either. many people have already said in this country that their voices and their votes that they aren't okay with this. and i think you're going to continue to see that, you know, coming up over the next year and even beyond. >> you know, rev, i'm struck by -- it's what erin is saying,e that are not afraid to use their platform to say, it's okay to not be okay, but let's change something here. and as harry and amanda and everyone that is sort of willing to speak out about this moment at great risk to their futures and their careers. >> and that's what advanced this country in the first place. how did we get civil rights? how did we get women's rights? how did we deal with immigration rights? people stepped out of their comfort zone. we're far more at risk than we have today and push this country forward. then there are those forces

trying to bring us back to those days when those rights were not there. one of the things martin luther king iii and i have called for a march on washington, august 26th, the anniversary weekend of the '63 march where his father, dr. king, did "i have a dream." this march is to deal with women, and of course blacks, and of course latinos, and everybody. because all of us have got to stop seeing this as just separate attacks. they're attacking all of us, the same forces at the same time, and says white male supremacy does what it wants to, not only to blacks and black history but to tell women their rights, what they can choose over their body, or do this with asians or latinos. the sad thing that was said to me the other day is when andrea waters king said dr. king's grandchild, they have the only

grand are grandchild of martin luther king. she's growing up with less rights than her parents. abortion rights is gone. affirmative action is gone. the right to say you can't discriminate with businesses on who you're going to serve. we've lost already, some in the last 60 days, the rights that others paid a price for, and they had to pay a price when they were fighting against much stiffer winds than we are. so what's our excuse? we have more to work with and doing less with it. we've got to get organized and fight back. >> that conversation is very much to be continued with the rev sharpton and erin hain. thank you for spending time with us today. we are grateful.

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