velshi, 2024 is gonna be and credibly busy year for the disgraced twice impeached, twice indicted former president of the united states. not only will he be campaigning to get back into the white house, but trump is going to have to fit in a number of quarter parents's and criminal trials along the way. just yesterday, the federal judge presiding over the classified documents investigation sent a trial date for next spring. 2024, on top of that trump will likely soon be indicted for a third time in the coming weeks or even days. making him a defendant in three criminal trials, all before the general election next november. trump announced that he received a letter from special prosecute jack smith, a target letter is almost always an indication that the person to whom the letters addressed will soon face criminal charges. we have learned a lot about trump and his teams intend to subvert democracy, which culminated in the insurrection

at the capitol on january 6th 2021. but, special counsel jack's team is still uncovering the full scope and the people who are either involved in or witness to trump's attempts to dismantle democracy on thursday, the grand jury in washington her destiny from a man in william russell who i will likely be sure that you don't know. he was a little lone personal aide and trip director who began working for trump in the white house in early 2020. he remains by his side to this day, notably russell was with trump for at least part of the day on january 6th. that is him stand next to trump. including at the event at the, trump gave an incendiary speech shortly before the insurrection began. nbc news has learned that they questioned that during after the 2020 election, a crucial point in knowing if trump knew he lost the election and yet still spread lies about voter fraud and corrupted --

the insurrection at the capitol was a shock to the system as we now understand it. it was not a spontaneous incident, it was an active and coordinated assault carried out by a desperate, defeated president trying desperately to cling to power. the plan to deny joe biden the presidency was complex. it involved the sustained effort to spread dangerous lies about election fraud, lies that persist to this day. plans are underway for fake electors, fake documents to disrupt official proceedings in multiple swing states, all in the name of donald trump. there's even a pressure campaign to get election officials like georgia secretary of state pat raffensperger to find indonesia's words enough votes to overturn the states election results. nbc news has now also confirmed first reported by the washington post that georgia's governor, this man brian kemp, was recently contacted by the special counsel's office in regards to trump's effort to interfere with the peaceful

transfer of power in that state. this investigation is much more intricate and complicated compared to the other two cases for which trump has already been indicted. the complexity is reflected in the three statutes and potential criminal charges allegedly outlined in that target letter that smith sent to trump. one, witness tampering, two deprivation of rights under the color of law. and three, conspiracy to defraud the united states. a charge that many thought would be likely. in fact, it is one of the charges that the january 6th committee recommended when issued a criminal referral as its work grew to a close at the end of last year. as it is written, the law pertains to two or more people who quote, conspire either to commit offense against the united states or to defraud the united states. and quote. trump's involvement in a criminal conspiracy has even been invoked in a court before. in a civil case last year,

trump's legal adviser john eastman, as he fought to prevent the january 6th committee from obtaining his emails. in that case, judge david carter agreed with the january six committee that it was likely that they had conspired against the united states, writing quote, dr. eastman and present trump launched a campaign to overturn a democratic election, and action unprecedented in american history, and quote. now that's with him self has referenced this charge, it raises the possibility that others could be indicted alongside the former president. remember, conspiracy, to more people. although so far, no other trump associates are known to have received a target letter in this particular case. joining me now is the president and ceo of citizens for responsibility ethics crew. he also recently wrote a model prosecution memo assessing the possible charges that trump could face in relation to his efforts to interfere with the

peaceful transition of power in 2020. noah, good to see you, thank you for being with us. >> happy to be here. >> no, these model prosecutions are drinking, they give us a sense of what this prosecution looks like. to people like me, we watch the january 6th, we will listen to the phone call in georgia, it seems obvious what the charge is and what the culpability is. but in a court of law, in a prosecution like this, it is complex and the former president of united states was running to be president of the united states again, it is that much more complex because jacks writ and his team have actually get this right. they have to put some charges forth that are approval and probably prove-able in a short amount of time and understandable to a jury. >> that is right. we have this really amazing bipartisan group of prosecutors and experts on air. don perry and others, we try to

look, not in a minimal way, but really at the high standard that the department of justice would use for any prosecution, but particularly for a prosecution of a former president of the united states. to look at the volumes of evidence that were publicly available. we know jackson has more. but to look at the laws and see what charges actually pass that high bar, the department of justice was set. we concluded that even understanding what a big deal this prosecution would be, that in a number of really serious, really core charges, we are confident that the evidence is there, but the department justice will conclude that the evidence is there and bring charges that both are streamlined and efficient so we can have a trial in a reasonable amount of time, but also that really captures the magnitude of what happened here. you have a president trying to interfere with a peaceful transition of power, to keep

himself in office despite losing an election. which is about as serious course events as you can have in a democracy. >> the conspiracy to defraud charge is one of the charges that you and your coauthors identified as a possibility in your model prosecution memo. but as you point out in that memo, that law, section three 71 of title 18, has different problems that could apply to this case in a few different ways. it is not just actually obvious from what we have heard about the target letter. what checks mid means with this charge. what do you believe he means? cks mid means with thi>> i thine actually that he could use both prongs of the statute. what the law says is, you can have a conspiracy to violate another law, another federal law and one of the laws that could be involved there are false statements to the government. well we know that there are false statements to the government here, we have these

false electors in multiple states, submitting these documents saying that we are the duly chosen electors from michigan, from these other states. and both the electors themselves and on trump who is orchestrating this scheme understood that he had lost the states, one of the constitute electors. you could have conspiracy to violate a law like that one. you can't undo this conspiracy law, have a conspiracy more generally to defraud the united states. which is understood to mean a conspiracy to obstruct a lawful function of the united states government. that could include the lawful function of congress on january 26 2021 to certify the electoral votes so that they would be processed and joe biden would be declared the winner. this whole scheme was clearly

intended to and least briefly did obstruct that important government function. >> for the concept of conspiracy involves more than one person. jacks mitt may not care about a lot of these other people, maybe does. he is not a guy we knew about in the florida case essentially. does this mean, if there is a conspiracy charge, does that by definition mean that there is a coconspirator, someone else who will be charged? >> it does by definition mean that there is a coconspirator. it is not absolutely necessary to charge another person. you can have an unindicted coconspirator where the indictment could say double trump and official one, person one conspired to defraud the united states in these ways. i think it is fairly likely that if that charges brought, and i do think that is a likely charge, that the will be at

least one other person charged. john eastman, john eastman is a likely target, this lawyer who is working with trump to really helped you conceive of and spearhead this scheme. chesebro was another lawyer who wrote memos. laying out the steps they could take to overturn this election. so i think it's pretty likely that there will be one or two others charged. but it is certainly possible that there could be a conspiracy between donald trump and other people and for a variety of reasons, prosecutors could choose not to charge them. >> noah, i'm always so much smarter for listened, you thank you, i could talk to you forever, i appreciate your analysis on this work. noah bookbinder is the president ceo of the seasons of responsibility, and ethics. more on this, i'm joined by the time the credit congressman of california. , i'he's a member of the house judiciary committee in 2001, he served as a house manager

during the second impeachment trial of donald trump which essentially made him a prosecutor of that particular impeachment case. congressman, good to see you, thank you for being with us. i want to ask you about something that is not included in that, allegedly natalia letter. we have not seen the target letter, we have heard about it. one of the things that is not included is a criminal referral that you all made, at least the january six committee made to indict donald trump for assisting or backing up and insurrection. that does not seem to be at play here. tell me your thoughts on that, is it disappointing to you that it's not, assuming what we know today. because anything can happen. >> thank you elie for your question. what accident is doing is not only put out all the primes that don't count may have committed, but to build proof that beyond a reasonable doubt in court.

there may be reasons because evidence or varying standards, why you would bring one charge over another. in terms of the fake electors scheme, that is much easier because you don't have free speech issues, you don't have issues related to whether he actually incited an insurrection. it is much more black and white, either you had a fake electoral you didn't, he tried to submit the names or they didn't. they sign a stock event or they didn't. that is one way he's being surcharges or not others. >> yesterday, he tweeted about his attacks against jack smith. it's been in stark contrast by the way, complemented as judge in the mar-a-lago case, we need more judges like her. prosecutors, he attacks, he tweeted that in the entire history of america, the number of prosecutors and hope profile cases who ran away in fear because of public threats by a criminal suspect is exactly zero.

criminal suspects who athlete police increase the resolve of prosecutors. i think you're right, every vascular i've talked to repeat this. they all say that they have implied threats. donald trump has gotten farther than that. >> you are right, ali. i'm a former prosecutor, i just tell you, prosecutors love when defendants want to speak publicly. especially in a classified documents case. the things that donald trump has said, jackson can really just roll the tape. he is proving elements of the crime just through things that he is saying. in terms of the threats from donald trump, they are serious. we can't just ignore them. at the same time, it's not gonna change what jack smith is going to do. i've said you want to note that in a constitution airy public, now we are talking about the potential second indictment, a crime of trying to steal the

election should be considered one of the highest crimes possible because that is striking at the core of our republic. we will see what the charges is the jackson springs. >> i'm always surprised and disappointed by some of your colleagues in the house who cannot take any offered exit ramp to get off the trump bandwagon. but it is way worse than that in congress. there is an effort underway to expunge both of don't trump's impeachments. i don't know how that even works in congress. but, how does that make you feel? you and your fellow members of congress were there on january 6th. when this happened. that perfect phone call that led to the first impeachment has a role to play in this war in ukraine. these are remarkably serious things. and rather than criticizing donald trump for either of them, your republican colleagues are looking to expunge the impeachments. >> democrats pass the infrastructure law to rebuild roads and bridges and highways, to bring back high tech manufacturing to america. republicans in control, they're

just doing silly stuff. there's no such thing known as an expungement of an impeachment in the u.s. constitution. it is really just a glorified press release with a meaningless vote because there's gonna be no records that are sealed, will be no documents that are going to be blocked out. people are not going to forget that there are impeachments. this really is a political stunt. it is something that the republicans should be doing, they should be trying to help american family move forward. >> democratic representative ted lieu of california, thank you serving with us. can't lose also a house manager during the second impeachment trial. of donald trump. we appreciate your time is always. another feature of the efforts to overturn the 2020 election volving fake electors. coming up next, i will talk to the michigan secretary of state jocelyn benson about the charges filed against 16 fake electors who try to help donald trump steal michigan's electoral vote. and, the global gaslighting campaign that is contributing to the extreme heat wave. we are all feeling at this

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around the world where the candidate who receives the most votes in election winds, here in the united states we use a different system called the electoral college. you know will. after watching steve kornacki for years doing the electoral graph on tv every election night, each of the 50 states in washington d.c. is assigned a number of electoral votes based on its size so when we vote for a particular candidate, on election day in actuality we are voting for a political parties electorals who will later cast their votes for that party's presidential candidate in the electoral college. whichever candidate gets the majority of the electoral votes

at this point, at least 270 of them, wins the election. after the election, each state awards its electoral votes to the slate of electors who are aligned with the winning candidate. in december, all five and 38 electors gather to certify those results. these votes are usually symbolic because almost all states have lost saying that if he candidate wins the popular vote on election day, that candidate wins all of that states electors. but if you recall, 2020 was very, very different. according to the house select january six committee. after don trump lost to joe biden, the ex president and his allies have a plan to overturn his defeat by convincing republican controlled legislatures in swing states that biden actually -- to actually put forward a competing set of electors who were trump friendly. the panel also says that the law professor john eastman, remember him? he was a key player in crafting legal memos arguing that state

legislatures had the authority to choose their own electors. when the legislatures chose not to oblige, trump and company drummed up their own slates of electors in arizona, georgia, michigan, nevada, and new mexico. by the way, pennsylvania wisconsin as well in hopes that they could overturn the votes in each of those state houses. many of the fake electors actually showed up and there she capital buildings on december 14th, the day illegitimate letters were meeting across the country to cast their votes. according to the new york times, quote, the state rationale is that mr. biden's victory snow states will be overturned once they could be establishing their claims of widespread voting fraud and other irregularities and quote. but as is well documented, through the investigations a court rulings, there was no widespread voter fraud in 2020. ultimately, only the legitimate electoral elections were nominated and joe biden took office.

since then, in an effort to hold the charlatans to account, state prosecutors in arizona and georgia have launched an investigation into fake electors who operate in their states. this week, the michigan attorney general announced federal charges against 16 republicans who had been covertly in the basement of michigan's gop headquarters. and masqueraded as electors to knowingly help trump cheat. there's even video of the moment in december 2020 when a group of republicans walk right up to their state capitol in lansing, michigan, claiming to be the states electors. spoiler alert, they were not. >> [inaudible]

>> the electorate is -- >> i'm not gonna get into a political debate. >> the official document -- they're gonna be their constitutional right. >> i understand. >> is that he won here -- to deliver this to the senate today. >> that is what you call gaslighting. the real electors were on time, they were inside the state house, democracy prevailed that. they have a quick break, i'm joined by jocelyn benson, michigan secretary of state, she's an ardent champion of democracy and it's fine to assure that michigan's election remain free and fair. electio remain free and fair remain free and fair to keep up with their finances. smart bankers. convenient tools. boom. one bank with the power of both.

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she's the secretary state. she's a long-standing champion for democracy. she oversees michigan's elections to make sure that they remain free and fair. they were free and fair, and one of the things that you always reminded me of is, in michigan you have audits. you believe in audits. like that silly thing that happened in arizona. you actually believe that election should be audited to make sure that they are free and fair. that was done in the election of 2020. it was determined to be free and fair, and yet your government has decided that you are going to hold to account the people who presented themselves as electorals who just weren't. >> yes, thanks for having me velshi, it is good to see you and being on your show today, talking about this important issue. i think michigan is leading the way in seeking consequences for those who really were part of an actionable plan to try to subvert the will of millions of voters in our state. stating to the government, as it clearly showed, that they

were, electors for the state of michigan when they were not. the bottom line is, you cannot simply lie about who won an election. because you don't like the outcome of the election. if you do, if you try to lie to the government about that and overturn, then there are consequences and that was you have seen this week in michigan. >> it was almost comical to watch that video again because it is about people who are trying to convince us that they are who they say they are. but in fact, it is not comical, that is the thing. these things are funny until you realize that they were very close to succeeding. tell me about how you deal in your state with the idea that these prosecutions will look politicized. you and your attorney general and your governor in the last election ran against people whose main issue was this election nonsense on the other side. >> i think you have to look at two things. first, always follow the evidence. if there is evidence of

wrongdoing, regardless of who committed, a democrat or republican, the attorney general and law enforcement are obligated under their duty to proceed with charges. that is really what you have here. our attorney general in the state of michigan has not hesitated in the past to bring charges against democrats. when there has been actionable evidence that they've committed acts of wrongdoing in elections. and the list is long in that regard. yet at the same time, when you have republican electors who have overwhelmingly shown through evidence that they are guilty of trying to overturn a legitimate presidential election, in some cases it would be a great active malfeasance, and perhaps a great political act for her not to proceed with charges. and what she is done here is follow the law, follow the facts, follow the evidence and proceed with charges. that is what we want of any top law enforcement officer in any state. >> one of things you're doing in michigan because you are pro voting, is trying to make it

easier for people to vote. all the things that your police were trying to squash. you have a new michigan voting law that talks about lawmakers in several democratic-controlled states advocating sweeper voting protections. this year, reacting to what they consider the undermining of voting lights of the supreme court and republican led states as well as a field effort in congress to bolster access to the polls. specifically in your state, you have got proposal to which was approved by the voters which establishes a website which you can track a balance, the voter can know where the ballots are. voters have a minimum number of days in which they can vote in advance. tell me what your success rate is in getting everybody who wants to vote to be able to vote in michigan and how this law changes that. >> but i think it is important to note that as we have endured the challenges over the last several years, and indeed democracy has been in the midst of this great effort to undermine it in 2020 and in 2022.

but at the same time, michigan's democracy has thrived because primarily voters have stood up and defended it. in 2018, we saw proposals in acted to put citizens in charge of drawing our legislative districts. and enable absentee voting, elected a registration, and then we saw sequel to that effort in 2022 where citizens amended our state constitution to create nine days of early voting among other things as you mentioned. expanded drop boxes and the like, so i'm honored to be able to implement those and make that real. and the result has been extraordinary. we've seen a back-to-back the highest turnout elections with more people voting on both sides of the aisle than ever before in our state. and so my hope and our challenge really in this moment is to ban together at citizens, come together across our political differences, and make democracy stronger, even though there is this small cohort of organized individuals trying to overturn it. >> you've got no reason absentee voting which i think is just brilliant, i don't know why everyone doesn't just do that, why do i have to jump

through hopes to actually cast my ballot? you've also got the ability now to fix clerical errors on ballots, use other passports, tribal photo i.d. cards, military i.d. cards, or student i.d. cards to identify themselves when they actually show up to cast ballots. why on earth is that remotely political? why is that partisan? does that not help democrats and republicans and independents and their parties and anyone who stands for election or anyone who wants to vote for anyone? >> our democracy and democracy at large is about making sure that every voices heard, every vote is counted. and we all come together with our diverse perspectives and differences and develop a plan to move forward, that is when we work best. and so our job is to make sure that every voice can be heard, whether you are rural michigan, or urban michigan, east, north, south, and indeed that is the call for all of us as election administrators. the challenge in this moment is that you have, it is seen as a partisan issue in part because

you have one party that has been overtaken by individuals who don't seem to believe in democracy. case in point, my former opponent who still hasn't acknowledged the results of the 2020 election, little knit we salt of the 22 election. he is now running the michigan republican party. so we are -- against our democracy. but we are also determined to continue making it better. that is what our story is in our state. >> you've been working out for a long time, we honor you for that, we appreciate that, i know others have all of you for that. johnson invention is the secretary of state of michigan. coming up next, balancing the polarization within this country and prosecuting donald trump and why holding him legally accountable is necessary to save american democracy. e is necessary to save american democracy. democracy. that's why soccer pros like me profer the grand slam ham. and this rookie prefers fresh sliced turkey. perfect for when you're subbed out of the game. and if we profer it, we know you'll prefer it too. nothing better than a sub, sub. and we're done. hm, what about these? ♪

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22 consecutive days. through the state, emergency room visits are up, people are suffering, not only from heat exhaustion, but from second and third degree burns because pavement and metal services are reaching temperatures of higher than 180 degrees. you burst of just for touching a building or touching something that is metal. one phoenix area emergency room told doctors that his pr hasn't been this overrun since the peak of the covid-19 pandemic. most of the in on states, huge swaths of europe, china, india, pretty much most of the northern hemisphere are currently experiencing the hottest summer on record. oceans are reaching record temperatures to. even antarctica, which is currently in the dead of winter, is seeing record high temperatures. wildfires in canada have broken records making this the worst wildfire season in history. tornadoes, flash floods, which caused landslides, heat waves, wildfires, the climate crisis is here and scientists are

telling us that the worst is yet to come. but climate change and specifically climate change driven by human activity and the burning of fossil fuels has been in the news for more than 110 years. the first known reports was written in 1912 when popular mechanics magazine published a short article headlined coal consumption affecting climate. that's for the 1960s, president lyndon b. johnson said in a special address to congress quote, air pollution is no longer confined to isolated places. this generation has altered the composition of the atmosphere on a global scale through radioactive materials and a steady increase in carbon dioxide from the burning of fossil fuels. this was 1965. by 1988, climate change was a major issue. then senator max bacchus of montana address congress. >> this summer's heat and drought contributed to 60,000 fires already, burning already

forged million acres. about one piece of the complex puzzle of global warming. before hottest years of this century occurred in the 19 80s. the warming of the earth atmosphere led to the growth in greenhouse gases, the most notable carbon oxide. at present, the burning of fossil fuels emits five billion tons of carbon to the atmosphere each year. >> that is a republican. the next day, the front page of new york times read in part, the earth has been warmer in the first five years, first five months of this year than in any comparable period since veterans began 130 years ago. and the higher temperatures can now be attributed to a long expected global warming trend linked to pollution. a space agency science reported that today. so what happens? how is it that we have been having more less the same conversation for so many decades? well, they're a lot of reasons dating back to the first global climate change convention in stockholm in the 1960s.

one major reason we have sold out is the oil industry. and the fossil fuel companies that worry that their profits are at risk. in 1998, a now if this internal memo from the american petroleum institute led by representatives from exxon, chevron, and southern company came to light in which strategist laid out their plan for climate related messaging. the member states, part of their quote, victory, would involve making sure that the general public had uncertainty about existing climate science. to be clear, it is not that these companies had any genuine doubt themselves. internal memos from some of the biggest oil companies like exxon revealed that their own scientists had been warning about the dangers of increased emissions for decades already. since at least the 1970s. since then, the fossil fuel industry has set out to reshape the narrative surrounding climate change, global warming, and the consequences of burning fossil fuels. it is a decades-long, literally,

decades long campaign to gaslight people out of what was and remains scientific consensus. for instance, according to a report by the union of concerned scientists in the early 2000s, a group of fossil fuel energy companies gave us smithsonian scientist a combined one point $2 million in funding to publish papers certain that the global warming trends were the result of a natural, normal cycle of the sun. the same report, which included contributions from the climate investigation center and greenpeace compiled a long list of the oil industry's efforts. the report found that oil companies set their own employees to stage protests against great initiatives. they created fake grassroots campaigns in support of oil as an american staple. they sent letters to congress posing as nonprofit organizations. opposed to clean energy bills. the list goes on and on. exxonmobil published back on the report, push back on the report defending its actions.

but big oil's efforts to control the narrative around climate change, to sow doubt, denial, deposit fossil fuel companies themselves as a key to green energy solutions, and to influence climate and energy policy, that effort is well documented. a climate change article springer nature shows that trading edgy groups are led by oil and gas groups -- lobbying, and political contributions. big oil profits doubled in 2022 by the way, breaking in about 220 billion dollars. they are only expect to increase. the climate cross -- oil and gas companies had more representatives present than almost any nation, according to international count ability ngos witness and corporate accountability. just recently, according to the publication, as well as the

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decide to pardon richard nixon in 1974, he believed he was doing was in the best interest of the country. he believed that a long protracted trial that could drag on for months or do more harm than good. in his pardon, he wrote, the tranquilly to which this nation has been restored could it be irreparably lost by the prospects of bringing to trial a former president of the united states and quote. there are clear parallels between nixon and donald trump, the first president ever to be impeached twice and the first president who has faced a criminal indictment. but let's be clear, the current times in which we live are vastly different from the watergate era. donald trump must be held to account for his actions. but it is essential to consider the delicate balance between the necessity to prosecute trump, and exacerbating the ever growing polarization in

america. the gop's embrace of americas paranoid fringes is no longer an afterthought. it is a stark reality. trump's presidency has embraced and courage the resurgence of the white nationalist movement whose members now police are nations libraries, our school board meetings, and various venues across america, harassing those who are not aligned with their beliefs. trump's cold like following within the gop has made it politically costly for any republican to deviate from his extremist rhetoric, feeling alienation from the party that demonstrates fealty to him time and time again. trump has also cynically projected his legal woes on to his supporters. painting any indictment of him as an attack on all of them and pledging to get revenge on their behalf. >> every time the radical left democrats, marxists, communists and fascists indict me, i consider it a badge, a great, beautiful badge of honor and

courage. because i'm in being indicted for you. in 2016, i declared i am your voice, today, i am your warrior. i am you justice. and for those of you who have been wrong and betrayed, i am your retribution. >> pulling over the last several months in the case that with each new indictment, trump's popularity grows. among his extremist republican base. concerning all these factors, prosecuting this particular former president becomes an entirely different ball game, whoever it is a ball game that is entirely necessary to play. excusing behavior of a defiant and habitual lawbreaker with a fascist ambitions would raise serious questions about the integrity of our democratic system. it could undermine the very bedrock of our democratic principles. i want to dig deeper into this topic, i'm joined by two this march people on that i know, she is a pulitzer prize-winning historian and staff writer.

she's the author of several books including twilight of democracy, the seductive lure of authoritarianism. timothy snyder is a professor of history at yale university, a prominent fellow at the institute for human sciences and author of on tyranny, 20 lessons from the 20th century. i have relied so much on the issue of you over the years to understand things that are going on. so is a real privilege to have you both here to address this issue. there is a specific question that i want to address with you. i've already received tweets about this this morning from people who think that this is an unnecessary conversation, that there should be any conversation about the potential risks of prosecuting and finding donald trump guilty of the things that he has been charged with and maybe charged with. it may be entirely necessary and important do so, but it could further polarize the country, i would love to get your take on that. >> so, yes i think it is important to talk about the risks because there are risks. but it is also important to look at historical precedent,

you mentioned one in your introduction. this was nixon, the reason why that situation was so different from this one is that nixon was condemned by his own party. republicans in congress, republicans in the country, not all of them, but many of them wanted him to resign and participate in the watergate hearings process. and by the time joe ford became president, there was a consensus, at least within the party leadership, that he was well out of the white house. we don't have that now, we have a republican party that is encouraging trump, that is spreading the same kinds of messages, that is questioning whether january six even was an instruction at all. even though as we know more and more, we have more and more evidence that it was. so in that circumstance, it is a very important that the law proceed further because there isn't anything else that can

stop that for deracemization of the republican party, although i agree with some of the questioners, it is important to ask. i agree with your point that is important to look at the risks, it is also important to understand why this is different. let me mention one more precedent, which is that of hugo chavez in venezuela who was released from prison, this is way back in the early days, before he had been elected. he was released from prison after attempted insurrection, this actually encouraged his followers more. we also think about what other risks of not condemning him, of not carrying the january six investigations to their obvious and. because if we don't do it, then we give actual more impetus to that movement. >> tim, across the world, including in eastern and central europe, but in america and civil rights movements in south africa, during india in

the independence movement. there are people who knowingly broke laws for an honorable and, to change oppressive laws. donald trump has managed to squirm his way into that crowd, at least with his own supporters, it sounds outrageous, but it is actually happening, he is convincing people, as mussolini did, i think mostly called himself an adventure. don trump calls himself the retribution. how is it that you separate these things? how is it that you explain to people know, these are laws he broke. whether he believed he won the election or he didn't, he undertook things to a break the law in america that undermine democracy, not for the gain, not for the benefit of some better results. >> the fundamental difference is sometimes people will break laws in the name of a principal, and that principle can itself be the rule of law, that is actually the foundation of the united states of america, the common law tradition that we inherited from britain assumed

that the king was not above the law. the bases of the american revolution, therefore was holding the king to the law. and once we had done that, we then wrote up the common law in the form of a written constitution which made it very clear that there would be no king and that nobody would be above the law, the president is someone who holds office for a certain period of time, it is not a special person who is somehow above the law. trump talks about retribution or revenge, what he's doing is he is using a fascist language, he's using language from an entirely different political system, one which says that there is no law, it doesn't matter, there's no difference between the leader and the party and the state and the people, that everything ultimately comes down to the win and the will of one person. if you want to get ourselves into a fascist system, then thing to do as and suggest is to not to prosecute mr. trump's. because the meaningful polarization in this country, i

believe, is between people who believe in law and people who don't. and the people who don't believe in law are going to be galvanized and encouraged by a powerful figure, someone who has been present and wishes to be present, and of course that is the difference. the person who is the leader and has the power is now calling upon people to break the law. >> this concept of vengeance, this idea that i was in power, i'm still pretty powerful, and i could ultimately be powerful again has come to play in an ad that donald trump put out a few days ago on thursday on truth social. let's just play this, i want to get your take on it. >> if you do something bad to us, we are going to do things to you that had never been done before. >> do you things that never been done. four by the way, there's a lot more to that at. but eugene's point, this is important. this isn't a guy on the outside saying, i want my piece of this

fair system that america, is this is a, we're gonna come in, we're gonna clean house and you mentioned fascist and communist, mark assists, all sorts of people. there is an implicit threat here combined with what he said last weekend on fox business about what a great judge cannon's, and what a patriot she is, and how we meet more judges like her to do the right thing. there is the messaging of a guy who thinks he is gonna be back in office, who is telling people i'm gonna find the ones who are bad to me and get rid of you, or do something to you. i'm gonna find the ones who are good, you're gonna be part of my administration. >> you don't have to look at marxist or fascist or anything else, i think it's necessary to go outside of our system to understand what it is that trump is trying to do. as tim just said, we have a system that is rule of law. meaning that the law is higher than any individual, the law is higher than any person, and we have a written constitution, we have a legal system that everybody is responsible to, what he is saying is that he wants to change that system and

establish what is called, elsewhere in the world, rule by law, in other words the law is what the person in charge says it is. so, the law is what the powerful say it is. judges are not independent actors who owe their allegiance to the constitution, judges owe their allegiance to the president or whoever is the president who has power. and there is a whole range of other institutions that trump has been attacking that operate along the same principle. the military for example, the spring i was at a commissioning ceremony for a young military officer, they don't swear to present biden or any president. they swear feel to the constitution, their obligation is to the constitutional system. one of the reasons why part of the trump right, the mega movement has been attacking the military is precisely because of that, because the military is not a body that will fight for trump or for them or for any particular person or group.

it is a body that is meant to be loyal to the constitutional system, you could say the same about the fbi, you can say the same about the whole range of institutions that they are now taking aim at. and so, again, what he is seeking to do is to change the nature of our political system and make it something different. it doesn't matter what you call that new system, but it is definitely not the american system that we have known till now. >> i'm so grateful to both of you. not just for now but for all the times that we have talked and taken time, the many times you have been in other parts of the world, ungodly hours i. i really do recommend my viewers that in this crucial time they read both of you, they follow both of you and the things that you. and applebaum is a historian for the atlantic. timothy's mider is a -- stay where your, and our. we go, i would say one thing. on the show i often have to remember in my mind can make distinctions between people who are ideologically conservative and people who are republicans, they're not the one in the

same. i did actually make that mistake. i referred to max bacchus as a republican, he's a democrat. he's always been a democrat. here's what you would call a conservative democrat. he broke with his party on issues of guns, on issues of taxes, things like that. and as a result, he was considered conservative by his own party, but he is a democrat. those comments that he made on climate we're particularly important. coming from a conservative democrat. stay where you are, for another hour of velshi starts after a quick break. f velshi starts after quick break. quick break. ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪