israel? what do they do with the new powers that they have given themselves? that's what i would be looking for. >> ben rhodes, thank you. i could talk to you for hours. i may. that is all in on this monday night. watch inside with jen psaki every sunday at noon eastern right here on msnbc, plus catch new original episodes with "inside with jenna bush hager -- and thanks for everyone at home for joining us this hour. it's good to have you here. so there were four of them all together. four of them thus far. the first one was put up in 2008. it was in glendora, mississippi, it is a tiny little town in mississippi, it's less than 200 people. it was right on the bank of theal -- the river, there had

ban steam boat landing there on the bank of the river. a bustling spot a lot of coming and going. a sight of commerce, there were roads and buildings of course around there because of the steam boat landing but in the 1890s, a tornado came and wiped out that steam boat landing on the river bank, and they never rebuilt it. and so all that's left at that spot to this day is just kind of a wide spot, just kind of a clearing, a break in the vegetation through which you can get down to the river. that is where they put the sign up in 2008. but as soon as they put it up, somebody came in and tore it down. this was the posts that it was standing on. you can see it's been cut off. they tore it down. they cut it off its posts. they threw the sign if the river. it didn't last there six months before somebody destroyed it.

after that first sign got torn down, they put up a second one, another one just like it. this was the second sign. what are all of those holes in it? well, people started shooting at it. by the time this one was taken down in 2016, it had 317 bullet holes in it. 317. in 2018, they put up yet another new one, a third one. this time it was a big sturdy one that they thought really could stand up to it. this time the sign was really heavy. it weighed 50 pounds. lasted barely a month before that one was full of bullet holes, too. in july of 2019, three fraternity brothers, three white fraternity brothers from ole miss, from the university of mississippi, which is actually kind of far from there, it's an hour and a half drive away, they posed in front of the shot up sign. holding rifles and a shotgun in the picture. so that third sign, it came down

as well. so now it is the fourth version of the sign that is up now. and this one doesn't weigh 50 pounds. it's 500 pounds, made of half inch thick, ar 500 steel, which they make good armored plating from. it was a company in new york, called light bright neon studio in brooklyn, new york, that made this sign pro bono. they made it, shipped it, installed it at their own expense, and this time, the fourth version of this sign, this time it's made to be able to withstand a rifle round. and of course it needs to be. the reason this sign, the reason all of these signs, all four of them in succession were put up there on the bank of the river was because in 1955, that's the spot, it's believed that that's the spot where the body of a 14-year-old kid was hauled out of that river. he was 14 years old, he was from

chicago. he was staying with rels in mississippi. he was accused of whistling at a white woman. the white woman also said the 14-year-old boy grabbed her and made lewd comments to her as well as whistling at her, he had not done that. 50 years later she admitted that she actually lied and made that all up. of course by then, it was more than 50 years too late. two white men, roy bryant and j.w.milan abducted the 14-year-old boy, threw him in a pickup truck, tortured him horribly, and they murdered him, and they were put on trial for murder in front of an all white jury, which acquitted them. those two men admitted in court to the kidnapping part of the crime, but when a grand jury was asked to indict them for kidnapping, which they admitted to in open court, the grand jury

wouldn't even indict them for that. acquitted of murder, not even indicted to kidnapping. soon after they were acquitted of murder, the two men did a magazine interview that they got paid for, and they cheerfully admitted in the magazine article that of course they had committed the murder, of course they had killed that kid. the boy's name was emmett till, and the site where his body was found, that's where the sign memorializing his murder has been torn down and thrown in the river and cut off its supports, and spray painted, and doused with acid, and shot at, literally hundreds and hundreds of times. the marker noting the place where his 14-year-old body tortured, mutilated body was pulled out of the river, that's the place where that sign keeps having to be rebuilt and re put

up. tomorrow, the president of the united states will designate that a national site, the emmett till and mamie till will be dedicated tomorrow. this new monument includes three sites, the river bank site where the sign has gone up again and again, and it's now a bullet proof 500 pound version of the sign, the river bank site, also the site of the courthouse where the men who admitted killing emmett till were acquitted by the all white jury. that courthouse will be part of this national monument as well. that courthouse is also where local officials apologized to emmett till's family in 2007, which is the year before the first sign went up on that river bank. the third site in this new national monument will be in chicago at a church at the robert's temple church of god and christ, where more than

10,000 people turned out for young emmett till's funeral in september, 1955, after he had been murdered. his mother, mamie till mobley, she made the decision to allow a photograph of her brutalized son to be taken for jet magazine and the chicago defender newspaper. emmett till's mother made the decision that her son would lie in an open casket at his funeral so everybody could see what had been done to him. again, the national monument that will be designated tomorrow by president biden will be named both for emmett till and for his mother. it's called the emmett till and mamie till mobley national monument. becoming a national monument means technically this is protected land, protected by the federal government, protected and maintained by the national parks service in perpetuity.

with this particular new national monument, with that site in particular on that river bank in mississippi that's been treated like a shooting gallery that has had four different markers go up, the latest one 500 pounds and bullet proof, protected by a gate and alarms and cameras, but where a white nationalist group nevertheless tried to shoot an anti-black white power propaganda video just a few years ago in 2019. with this newest designated national monument, i don't know how it's going to go for that to be federally protected land, something that the national parks service greed to maintain and protect in perpetuity, but they now have that responsibility. and that is a start. that's something. president biden will sign that proclamation, designating the new national monument tomorrow on what would have been emmett till's 82nd birthday had he lived past the age of 14. and this designation, this

decision to do this by president biden, this comes at a time when it certainly feels right to do something like that. it comes at a time when the state of florida has just approved bizarre new mandates for teaching african-american history in the state of florida. these new rules created under florida republican governor ron desantis, these rules order teachers in florida to say effectively that slavery wasn't that bad, had some up sides, at least, according to florida's new official history instructions for teachers. enslaved people were lucky enough to learn skills and trades while they were being enslaved and tortured and raped with impunity. these new history regulations in florida compel teachers to point out the up sides of slavery.

it's just astonishing. florida's republican governor ron desantis who of course is at the helm of a floundering presidential campaign at the moment, he frankly seems divided within himself as to whether he wants to distance himself from this abomination. he sort of tried that a little bit, oh, that wasn't me. i didn't do that. that didn't have anything to do with me. he is sort of divided within himself, to distance himself from it, say he had nothing to do with it, or embrace it. after all he loves controversy when it relies on racial provocation, and maybe there might be some way for his campaign to benefit from particular racially provocative controversy. but this new national monument also comes at a time when alabama's state legislature, which of course is overwhelmingly republican, alabama's legislature appears poised to do something very very radical. to make sure that black voters

in alabama cannot elect representatives of their choice. you may have heard the supreme court of the united states, this may have crossed your radar the supreme court of the united states, you might know right now is a very conservative body. a 6-3 hard right conservative majority on the nation's highest court as we speak. but even so, even that hard line conservative 6-3 court could not swallow the recently decision by alabama's legislature to draw up congressional districts in that state so there's only one black majority district in the whole state in a state where a quarter of the population is black. the high court ordered the state of alabama to make a new map where there are two such districts where black voters might be able to elect a representative of their choice. they have been ordered to do

this by the federal courts. alabama is refusing to do it. even though alabama technically is a state in the united states of america which is a country that is technically subject to the rulings of the supreme court of the united states. even the alabama parts of the united states are subject to federal court orders. but apparently they are deciding on this issue that they maybe don't want to be. so we're going to talk about this more in detail a little later on in the show tonight, with someone who's right in the middle of this fight, but alabama deciding it just might not follow federal court orders when it comes to black people voting in 2023. it's not like a, you know, a rascally little tantrum that alabama is throwing here. this is the whole point o. of the country kind of stuff. this is as serious as it gets. defying federal court orders, that is a fast drive down a

short road for any country. any state in the deep south, any state that say seceded during the civil war is very very well aware of that. they are very well aware of how radical this is. but of course it's even more incendiary to do it right now because governor, slavery was not that bad, desantis, does not look like he's going to go the distance in the republican nominating contest. he's just running a terrible, terrible campaign that's sort of getting worse and more expensive by the day. he seems to be the only person who ever had a prayer of being within shooting distance, proverbial shooting distance, excuse me, of the republican front runner. i mean, the republican party really does poise, does look poised to renominate its front runner, to renominate the candidate who is dominating all of their presidential polling by 20, 30, 40 points, and if nobody can get anywhere near him, if

they do renominate donald trump as their candidate for president, that means the whole campaign for president, the whole election for president of the united states, over the course of this next year is going to be in large part a referendum on this question of whether we follow court orders as a country, whether the legal system binds us, whether it binds all of us, because the likely republican nominee for president as things are going, the prohibitive favorite to be the republican nominee for president, he is facing a trial in october on a quarter billion dollar civil fraud case brought by the new york attorney general, then another civil trial in january on defamation claims related to sexual assault allegations against him, then another civil trial later in january on a multimillion dollar civil fraud case related to an alleged pyramid scheme type thing that he was involved in, then a criminal trial in march on the new york state hush money charges, then a federal criminal

trial in may for his handling of classified documents, and meanwhile, we're waiting on news of additional potential criminal indictments of him personally, both at the federal level and in the state of georgia related to his efforts to overthrow the government and stay in power after he lost reelection. so if that's the, you know, personal schedule of the republican party nominee for president, a, busy, and, b, the election is going to be about this. it's going to be the referendum question posed implicitly and explicitly by his candidacy. do we choose him or do we choose the law? does the law apply to us all, does it protect us all, does it constrain us all or do we want this guy instead, and all of the myriad things he has to offer. the sixth and final episode of my new podcast, deja news, it's

been six episodes, it's been a ton of work. listen to all six for free, it's called rachel maddow presents deja news. the finale episode that posted today in part tells the story of protests and marches that happened in america. in new york city in 1935. in 1935, this is just before world war ii, right, benito mussolini was the dictator of fascist italy. he had essentially proclaimed that he was going to send italian troops to africa. he was going to invade ethiopia. he was going to conquer ethiopia and make it a colony of fascist italy, and there is just this amazing story about how the u.s. and major countries in europe handled that threat from mussolini. how they handled the question of whether or not to defend ethiopia, the question of whether or not mussolini should

be stopped in invading that country and taking it over. whether he could be stopped from doing that, what the western powers should do to try and stop him from doing that, it's a fascinating story, but there's also just this domestic part of it which feels more and more resonant with each passing day for me. black new yorkers at the time lined up and volunteered. they effectively enlisted to go fight the fascists, to go stop that invasion. look, hundreds of african-american men in harlem lining up, volunteering to go fight in that war, even if the u.s. military wouldn't. 25,000 new yorkers marched through new york city demanding that the fascists be stopped. another 10,000 new yorkers packed into madison square garden far huge rally against the fascists. they destroyed a 20 foot effigy of mussolini on stage.

10,000 people there for that. in other episodes of deja news, we've looked at the huge protests that erupted very recently in poland, when their new far right government mounted a conservative takeover of the courts and then banned abortion. biggest protests in poland since the fall of communist rule there in 1989. this weekend, i thought of that a little bit when we saw new yorkers take over the brooklyn bridge, in solidarity with the huge, huge protests that are rocking israel at the moment. as we speak. the right wing government in israel today mounting effectively a takeover of the judiciary in that country, which will not only be very convenient for their prime minister who is under criminal indictment, it will also broadly remove the ability to have the courts to constrain the government in lots of important ways. without a written constitution israel has no written constitution, the court's ability to constrain the

government is effectively the only constraint on the government. if they're going to get rid of that, the government will be unconstrained, starting presumably with the prime minister's ability to dismantle, while he serves as prime minister. tens of thousands of israelis have been protesting for six months now against these proposals. the government finally pushed through the first of them today. knowing that was likely, tuesday last week, a few hundred protests set out from the city of tel aviv for a march to the capital of jerusalem. that's about a 40-mile march. they left tel aviv on tuesday against several hundred people. by the time they got to the outskirts of jerusalem on saturday night. their numbers had swelled from a few hundred people to 20,000 people. took them four nights camping out along the way to get there, but during that time, their numbers grew from several hundred to 20,000. and the protests and

demonstrations and road blocks continue there tonight in jerusalem and in tel aviv and all over that country, as demonstrators try to stop their government from taking the huge step away from democratic rule. and from limited authority of the country's leader. we are in a moment at home and abroad where the hard right, the authoritarian nationalist right is aggressively ascendant. i think it's fair to say, as aggressively ascendant as they have been since the 1930s, a descendant of mussolini's fascist party is in power in italy. the racist hard right made a run at the french presidency a couple of years ago. the hard right is in place, in power in poland, as i mentioned where they just banned abortion,

and hungary, and russia, we all thought they might be in power by today in spain but voters there actually surprised everyone this weekend by turning back their far right nationalist party and sending them packing. they really thought they would be in power in spain by today, but instead, in this weekend's elections they got shellacked, hello, spain. but thinking about our own domestic challenges along these lines, running as we are, hard up against these basic questions of whether we're sticking with the rule of law or moving instead toward authoritarian rule, knowing that our likely nominees for the presidency next year are effectively going to be setting up the presidency as a referendum on that guy or the law. knowing that that's what we are hard up against here in this country, looking at our domestic challenges right now, looking at images from our own history, and from israel this weekend. it's days like this when it's

good to remember it's not just the authoritarian right that is ascendant as a global trend. it is also resistance to authoritarianism that can be a global trend. that is a global trend. the fight back is ascendant too. resilience matters. the first sign came down, second one came down, too. just like the third one after that. but the fourth one is built stronger and it still stands. and as of tomorrow, it's a national monument of the united states of america. resistance to this stuff trends too. it is also contagious. and emboldening. thank god. more to come tonight. stay with us. k god. more to come tonight ayst with us the virus that causes shingles is sleeping... in 99% of people over 50. it's lying dormant, waiting...

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in 2020, republicans in seven states sent these fake elector documents to the federal government. it happened in arizona, michigan, wisconsin, nevada, georgia, pennsylvania, and new mexico. all states that were won by joe biden, and as you can see, all of the things they sent in look kind of the same. republican electors in all of these states signed their names to these forged documents pretending that it was actually trump that won the most votes in the presidential election and he

should receive the state's electoral votes instead of biden, but somebody clearly organized this effort, all of the documents that were sent in from these states followed a similar kind of template. last week, the attorney general in michigan brought criminal charges against the 16 fake electors from michigan. eight felony counts for trying to overturn the election results in michigan. but, again, michigan was just one of the states that did this. a version of this scheme was run in seven states. what's going to that happen to the fake electors in the other six states where they tried this impact same thing, in some cases looking like they were playing out of the exact same sheet of mad libs. well, in two of the seven states, pennsylvania and new mexico, we know that the fake electors changed the template a little bit. they changed the language in their fake documents to include a caveat, which basically said, well, we know we're not the real electors now, but we're submitting these documents anyway just in case we become the real electors in the future.

those caveats seemed to have been added to shield the fake electors from legal liability. in those two states, pennsylvania and new mexico, it's possible that has worked. there are still four other states where the circumstances are sort of yet to be determined. well, sort of. in nevada, we pretty much know that we shouldn't expect charges. the attorney general there has explicitly said he's not planning to bring charges against these six fake electors from his state. that still leaves arizona, georgia and wisconsin, though. in arizona, we know that an investigation reportedly is ongoing into the perpetrators of the fake elector scheme there. in georgia, the fake elector scheme is apparently a focal point of district attorney fani willis's investigation into activity related efforts to overturn the election that includes actions by the former

president himself. the fake electors part of that has had willis's attention for quite some time. she has granted immunity to at least eight of georgia's 16 fake electors in exchange for their cooperation in her ongoing investigation. that leaves wisconsin where the state attorney general has refused to talk about whether or not he is investigating the fake electors there. now, we've reached out to the wisconsin attorney general's office. their office will neither confirm nor deny the existence of any such investigation telling us tonight quote, attorney general kaul strongly believes that those who committed crimes in an effort to unlawfully subvert the outcome of an election should be held accountable. which is great, also very generic. still telling us basically nothing. but among these seven states from which we had fake electors, it's a lot of fake electors, right, i mean, 16 of them already charged in michigan, more of them being investigated

as we speak. at least in arizona and in georgia. maybe in other places as well. it's a good reminder that in all of these investigations that we are following around particularly the efforts to overthrow the results of the 2020 election, it's not just former president donald trump who's in the cross hair. for example, in special counsel jack smith's classified documents case, charges have of course already been brought against trump, and also his staffer, walt nauta. but we also have reporting that another trump organization employee has been told that they're the target of that investigation and could face additional criminal charges. again, so yet another person could be charged in the classified documents case, that person has been warned of charges, effectively given a target letter in that case, and while we have yet to see any charges in the january 6th case, in the overturning the election part of the case, one of the statutes reportedly listed in the target letter that trump has received on that is conspiracy.

and if there's one thing we know about conspiracy charges, it's that a person cannot conspire alone. are there more names to drop? and what would that mean for the likely progress of these cases? joining us now is chuck rosenberg, a former u.s. attorney and senior fbi official. chuck, it's great to see you, my friend. thank you for being here. >> my pleasure, rachel. thanks for having me. >> so in the trump adjacent investigations, obviously there's lots of moving parts, lots of people potentially with legal liability besides trump himself, we've seen that come to fruition in terms of charges brought against a codefendant in the classified documents case already. how are you thinking about trump's potential codefendants or people being charged with similar crimes alongside him in terms of how that affects the way these cases are going to proceed? >> yeah, it's a great question. so let's just talk about the mar-a-lago classified documents case for a minute because we

have a codefendant. we have a coconspirator. in some ways, it makes sense. if the government believes in good faith that more than one person committed a crime, then you ought to charge more than one person. however, you know, the disparity between mr. trump and mr. nauta is significant. one was the former president, one was a relatively low level aide, and the problem the government will face at trial with two defendants is there will be two teams of defense counsel. they will have two opening statements. they will have two closing arguments. and every single government witness will be cross examined twice. and that can create some noise and confusion in a courtroom and for a jury. so i don't know that it's necessarily an easy decision. i don't mean to say it's a wrong decision. i don't know that it's necessarily an easy decision to indict other people with mr. trump and try them jointly. >> if trump is charged with

conspiracy, and again, we should say we have reporting about what's in his target letter, even if we had definitive knowledge of what was in the target letter, there's no guarantee that what's in the target letter is indicative that charges will be brought or that the charges that will be brought are those that are related to the statutes mentioned in the target letter. i have to give you all the caveats, but with all of those caveats, if trump is charged with conspiracy, there's no guarantee that his conspirators, people when he conspired with would be charged under the same indictment or indeed charged at all, right? >> that's exactly right. one could be an unindicted coconspirator, in fact, if you think back to michael cohen's charges in the southern district of new york, cohen, of course, mr. trump's former personal lawyer, in that indictment we learned about an unindicted coconspirator, individual one is how the government described that person in the indictment, and that turned out to be mr. trump himself. you know, charging a case as a

conspiracy confers on the government certain evidentiary advantages, i'm not going to bore you with those now. it makes sense often to charge a conspiracy, and often when you charge a conspiracy, you have multiple defendants at trial, but to your point, rachel, you're exactly right. you don't have to. you can have unindicted coconspirators that are flagged by the grand jury and mentioned in the indictment but not sitting next to the defendant, perhaps mr. trump, at his own criminal trial. >> chuck, i have to ask you, i can't let you go without asking you one last question which is the question on everybody's mind in the news business this week, which is what our expectations should reasonably be about the relationship between that reported target letter and any indictment and any unsealing of an indictment against trump if one is, in fact, coming? >> yeah, another great question. well, when i was a federal prosecutor, i would occasionally send out target letters. i would never send out a target

letter to somebody that i did not intend to indict. they're not bluffs, they're not games. they're not make believe, so here's what you ought to expect. if mr. trump really did receive a target letter, then he will be charged with federal crimes. if he really received a target letter, that will happen relatively soon. now, to your points earlier, your caveats are wise, target letters are not contracts. and the government could change its mind, but in my experience, that would be unusual. what you should expect is a federal indictment of mr. trump and a federal indictment soon. >> chuck rosenberg, former u.s. attorney, former senior fbi official. chuck, it's great to have you here as always. thank you. >> my pleasure. all right. we've got much more ahead here tonight, stay with us. ahead here tonight, stay with us. with downy infusions, let the scent set the mood. feel the difference with downy.

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map. last month, the supreme court found alabama in violation of the voting rights act. in alabama, one in four voters is black, but republicans in the legislature cleverly constructed the state's congressional districts so only one of seven congressional districts in the state is majority black. that was two racially discriminatory, even for this hard right conservative united states court. so the court ordered alabama to redraw the lines, so black voters would make up the majority or something quite close to it in two congressional districts, not just one. to that, alabama republicans just basically said no, we won't do it. they did draw new lines for new districts but the new lines don't include anything like a new majority black district. so what does this mean? i mean, the sort of best case terrible scenario here is that alabama republicans are trying to stretch this out as long as

possible to try and give themselves another shot at holding another election with illegal racially discriminatory maps that favor republicans. that's the best case terrible scenario. the worst case terrible scenario is that alabama republicans are just deciding that they don't recognize the authority of the federal government and federal courts. and that of course brings back all sorts of bad memories of what alabama is capable of, but when we're about to have a presidential election in which the central question is likely to be whether or not we as a country follow the law, whether the law applies to everyone, this is a particularly incendiary move by alabama republicans. one that alabama democrats like state rep chris england have been raising the alarm about. >> one thing i always say about alabama, it continues to be the place where the dead bury the living. we're haunted by ghosts of the

past, and every time we get to a critical juncture where our better angels could lead us in a proper direction, we refuse, and we say we dare defend our rights. >> joining us now is chris england, a democratic member of the alabama house of representatives. representative england, i appreciate you making time to be here tonight, thank you. >> thank you for having me. >> i'm going to ask you about those two scenarios that i just mentioned there, do you think that alabama republicans are just sort of playing for time, and knowing they're going to lose this, but dragging it out as much as possible or do you think they are making an attempt to resist or nullify this federal court order? >> i think it's a host of different things. i think at the bare minimum, it's an attempt to protect status quo, but at the worst of it all, i think it's an attempt to also buy time to use this legal map for two more years,

but the other part of it is, i think it's an extension of the work that was done to eliminate section 5 of the voting rights act in the shelby county case to now maybe using this noncompliant defiant map to go back to the supreme court and hopefully convince the justices that, you know, we're all conservatives here, so throw us a bone and maybe finish off section 2 of the voting rights act as well. >> so if the supreme court was already willing in the shelby county case to gut the voting rights act by getting rid of section 5, but section 2 still exists, you think they may be doing this basically to tee up a case that would throw out the rest of the voting rights act, that would throw out section 2 as well? >> i don't doubt it. i think it's a long legal strategy that ultimately buys them either time or makes another argument to go after section 2.

but on the other hand, it also throws the entire map to one or two people, a special master will draw it, and we basically shirked our constitutional responsibilities to represent our constituents and use them essentially as collateral damage for a political cause, and it's actually driven by people who don't even live here. i don't know if you've heard this or not, but the speaker of the house, mccarthy, called the senate sponsor of the map and told him he's interested in keeping his majority. but i think alabama citizens were probably more interested in the state keeping up to its obligations and following the law. >> kevin mccarthy encouraging this, encouraging defiance of the federal courts in order to eke out more illegally defined republican-leaning districts, obviously has disturbing national implications, but so does just saying that court orders don't matter, that if the federal courts are going to stand up and tell states what to

do, states have an option to disobey those orders. i wonder, representative england, what's been the reaction among alabama voters, among your constituents, among black voters in alabama in general as this fight has played out the way it has? >> disappointment, disgust, but not surprised. there's interesting context here that many african americans who occupy elected spaces in alabama are representing districts that are majority minority and that were created by court orders. from lawsuits that were filed years ago. the 7th congressional district itself was a district created by a lawsuit in a court order. and interestingly enough, not only is the black voting age population in the newly created second congressional district

39%, but the 7th congressional district was created by a court order for the specific purpose of electing an african-american saw its black voting age population in this new map go from 55% to 50, which is another outright slap in the face if you're considering the fight and the history that alabama shares with the rest of the country in terms of courts and the federal government having to force alabama to do the right thing in situations like this. so it is not a surprise, but still disappointment in the fact that alabama once again gets to this crucial threshold and fails to do the right thing. >> alabama state representative chris england, sir, thank you for joining us tonight. i know this is not over. we'd love to have you back, and keep us apprised as this fight keeps playing out. >> oh, yeah, anytime. i got a lot more to say. >> good. all right, we'll have you

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