this, as scheduled now, you could have five trials, three civil, two criminal, before the republican convention. >> yeah, and right there on your screen, you can see how they match up. a very complicated campaign for donald trump, one that his republican opponents, certainly the white house, looks at and says, "that'll be a problem for him. let's get out of the way." mike allen, thank you for joining us. >> thank you for your coverage. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this tuesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. when i was a federal prosecutor, i would occasionally send out target letters. i would never send out a target letter to somebody that i did not intend to indict. they're not bluffs. they're not games. they're not make believe. here's what you ought to expect. if mr. trump really did receive a target letter, then he will be charged with federal crimes. if he really received a target letter, that will happen relatively soon. >> the question this morning is,

how soon? we are back on indictment watch again for donald trump. all signs pointing to a second federal indictment for the former president. we'll go through the possible timeline in a moment. also ahead, more partisan politics from the republican-controlled house, as speaker kevin mccarthy floats an impeachment inquiry for president biden. we'll get into that. plus, a live report from israel after the fallout of a monumental vote by the parliament, limiting a key power of its supreme court and sparking massive protests across the country. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, july 25th. with us, msnbc contributor, our good friend mike barnicle. former aide to the george w. bush white house, state departments, another good friend, elise jordan. white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. yes, a good friend. i'll say that. he was waiting for it. >> yup. >> i saw you needed it, john, so i put it in there. and pulitzer prize-winning columnist, associate editor of

"the washington post," another of our dear friends on a summer morning, eugene robinson. good morning to you all. >> morning. >> the grand counsel convened by jack smith will meet today in washington to continue its probe into donald trump's efforts to overturn the legitimate results of the 2020 presidential election. it's possible the jury will vote today on whether to indict the former president. the panel normally meets on thursdays, as well, so it could be that day. here is what former acting u.s. solicitor general had to say last night on msnbc. >> whether it is tomorrow or thursday, as andrew weissmann says, possibly two weeks, i think all all indications are donald trump is going to get indicted. jack smith sent a target letter to jack smith last sunday. you don't do it, particularly against a former president, unless you're pretty sure you have the goods. >> meanwhile, the former president continues to fundraise

off of his legal trouble. in a campaign email last night, the 2024 candidate proclaimed himself an innocent man, as you might expect, adding, quote, our country could truly use your support right now. send me some money, subtext. in another, he compared the united states under president joe biden to stalinist russia and maoist china. nowhere does it say you'll be donating directly to trump's 2024 campaign. why? as "the washington post" reports, more than half of the money donald trump raised in the second quarter of this year went to footing his legal bills, not the campaign itself. again, he says he is a billionaire, asking his supporters to pay his legal bills. jonathan lemire, you are in washington where everyone is waiting for the potential today, maybe thursday, could be next week, we just don't know, of when this indictment could come down. not really a question of if, given the target letter, as neil pointed out, we saw last week, but when.

>> willie, i'm in washington all week, and the capital city is abuzz. the grand jury meets tuesdays, thursdays. there's been certainly a lot of chatter here in the beltway that today could be the day the grand jury votes to indict. media trucks are lined up outside the courthouse where that grand jury has been meeting, where jack smith and his team have been moving in and out of for months now. what is a sprawling investigation, one we've all shorthanded as the january 6th investigation. to be clear, former president trump's actions that day, or should we say inaction that day, is a part of this, helped fuel that riot at the capitol, somewhat violence committed in his name. but it is more than january 6th. it is the election interference investigation, the probe into trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election. it is a sprawling, massive one that is continuing. we're hearing about new people coming before the grand jury, but it does seem that we are now a matter of days before that

indictment, historic second federal indictment of a former president. this one, willie, the nation is watching with bated breath because of the ramifications of the upcoming campaign and certainly on the history books, we've never been here before. it seems we're in the final hours of this probe. >> it really is an extraordinary moment, mike barnicle, in the history of the country. it already has been with two indictments, one federal, one here in new york city. we have a trial date for the previous indictment down in florida for the mar-a-lago documents case of may 24th of next year. that's on the docket. now, we may get a date coming up here in the next several weeks for another federal case that the former president could be facing while he's seeking to head back to the white house. >> jonathan said we've never been here before, and in a sense, that's obviously true. but in another sense, we have been here before. we've been here before when a former sitting president of the united states was indictmented a few months ago. how many times has he been

indicted? >> two and imminent third or -- >> here, in the sense when you look at it and think about it, think of everything we hear from the experts we talk to, it's both predictable and, yet, enormously sad. a former president of the united states. >> i think we have to look at this as not simply an election process, an election campaign up until november 2024. the stakes are higher for donald trump. he is using the campaign platform to essentially fight these indictments and to stay out of legal trouble. this has become more of a referendum on the future of american democracy. >> yeah. >> will voters on either side accept the results of the next election when donald trump is telling his supporters that the election is rigged, that he was cheated in 2020. how is that going to get any better in 2024? >> well, will they accept the fact that president -- the former president of the united

states could be about to go to trial? >> right. gene robinson, we'll get into the story in a moment, but another of the people that was sent to the capitol, that believed the lie that jonathan lemire wrote an entire book about, of the election, is going to jail for four years. we'll have details on that next. but this gets to what elise touched on, will this lie persist? if donald trump lose it is 2024 election, if he makes it to the general, will he say that won that one? will people learn the lesson of that, or is this now a piece of the republican politic? if you lose an election, say you won and see what happens. >> well, i think we can answer the first question. if he makes it all the way, through the primary, becomes the republican candidate, makes it all the way to the election without being, you know, convicted and thrown in jail or having to step out of the race

because of his legal troubles or whatever, obviously, he is going to claim victory no matter what happens. he can lose in a landslide, he is going to claim he actually won, that it was rigged. we've heard it all before. the question is whether that has diminishing currency among voters. even when we get to that point. and you have to guess that there will be a core, a hard core of trump supporters who will believe everything he says and believe he is being persecuted and that, by extension, they are being persecuted, because their leader is being persecuted. but will that hard core shrink? and i think you have to guess that probably it will, but maybe it won't. we just don't know. we are in uncharted territory.

>> more on the lie that got donald trump into this trouble. former acting deputy general donoghue has been interviewed by jack smith's office. he hasn't been called in front of the grand jury investigating the 2020 election and january 6th. the former doj official told house lawmakers last year he repeatedly pushed back against baseless claims of a stolen election that were being peddled by trump and his allies. here is what he testified to in front of the january 6th house committee about a then conversation he had with president trump and the capitol correction. >> another one of your notes, you also noted mr. rosen said to mr. trump, quote, doj can't and won't snap its fingers and change the outcome of the election. how did the president respond to that, sir? >> he responded very quickly and said, essentially, "that's not what i'm asking you to do. i'm just asking you to say it

was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the republican congressmen." >> that was june of last year before the january 6th committee. donoghue said he threatened to resign in early january of 2021 when trump came close to installing election-denying environmental lawyer jeffrey clark as attorney general. also, special counsel jack smith's office also now has thousands of pages of documents from an ally of rudy giuliani who failed to find evidence of voter fraud after the 2020 election. an attorney for former new york city police commissioner, bernie kerik, handed over the information on sunday. in a post on social media, he wrote he had been subpoenaed several months ago, and his lawye received waivers from donald trump's team to release them. palatore, who retired from trump's team earlier, said they

released the documents. joining us now, msnbc legal analyst and former prosecutor joyce vance. let's start with indictment watch. what do you suspect is going on inside the grand jury room, the special counsel's office? when can we expect an announcement of what most people believe will be an indictment of the former president? >> that is obviously the question we're fixated on. what is the real timeline here? unfortunately for us as observers, it's awfully tough to say at this point. on the one hand, sending the target letter, telling the former president, if his retelling is truthful, he had four days to respond and appear in front of the grand jury, well, that made it look like we would see an indictment even as early as last week, which we know didn't happen. but pushing back against that fast timeline is this notion that the special counsel is still talking with witnesses, still engaging in interviews.

willie, i think the answer is while we could see an indictment any day, it's possible that there could be a strategy, for instance, to indict trump alone and to continue to work on the rest of the case. that seems a little bit farfetched to me. this is a case where you want to play everything by the books. you want to treat this the indictment like you would any other case. prepare it against any and all of the defendants you're looking at. we are told there is a conspiracy charge. that means that trump would not be a standalone defendant. he would need some co-defendants. looks like doj is tying up the last few things that they need in terms of details, and that they will indict at some point in the next couple of weeks, perhaps as early as this week. i think a little more likely is a couple weeks out. >> joyce, obviously, we have no sense of the complete fold that jack smith and other people put together. basically, from what we've read, what we know from reporting thus

far, would you be comfortable in trying to prove intent to deceive the federal government and the people of the united states of america, on the fact he claims that he won the election? would you be comfortable in going forward and trying to prove intent right now? >> based on the publicly known evidence, doj, special counsel's office will have a strong folder of evidence that will help them establish to a jury that trump knew he lost the election. if he didn't actually know, it's only because he was willfully blind to that fact. there is a legal doctrine, willful blindness, that says you can't just stick your head in the sand and become an ostrich once something becomes obvious. we learned this morning that rich donoghue has now sat down with the special counsel's

office. he takes notes of the late december calls, then an in-person meeting with trump, where they tell them, the acting attorney general jeff rosen says, "i'm not going to snap my fingers. doj can't change the outcome of the election. the election that you lost." then the former president says, according to donoghue's notes, "no, no, you don't need to go that far. just announce there is an investigation into fraud, and i'll take it from there." that exchange alone is chilling evidence in that regard, mike. >> one of the january 6th rioters, a man who carried out one of the most appalling attacks, the most appalling moments of that terrible day, is now going to jail. he beat a police officer with a flagpole while the officer was being dragged down the capitol steps. the man now will serve more than four years in federal prison. his name is pete stager. he claims he thought the officer was a member of antifa. that didn't hold up in court.

prosecutors asked for six years, quote, due to the chilling assault you're watching here, beating a police officer with an american flag. a judge lowered the sentence a bit, citing stager's horrible upbringing. 1,000 people have been charged so far in connection to the january 6th attack. more than 300 have been sentenced to serve time in prison. elise, we'll say it again, and joe would say it if he was here, there are consequences to this. donald trump thought he could send these people out, he could ask them for money, he could call them heros, could create a chorus and a choir of january 6th rioters who are now in jail, but there are an awful lot of them sitting in jail because of what, not just donald trump, but a lot of people told them was true and the actions they carried out that day because of it. >> well, and that's a pretty easy case, cut and dry, right and wrong, beating a policeman with a pole. you're going to end up with some prison time. that's not exactly a case you

look at and say, oh, that's political persecution there. joyce, i want to ask you, what is it going to take when it comes to what the crimes are against donald trump, for any of those allegations to actually stick? conspiratorial violence, inciting violence, it doesn't play the same way when it comes to political optics of the courtroom and american public sentiment. >> that's right, elise. i think we'll see that reflected in the charging decisions that jack smith will make. he will not stretch the evidence further than it goes when it's presented to a jury. i think we'll see a focus on a conspiracy to interfere with the functioning of government, to interfere with the certification of the electoral college vote, perhaps to interfere with the transfer of power.

that's this sort of intimation that we get from what we've learned about this target letter, that it will focus on the conspiracies with the lawyers trying to convince trump after he's been told, "you lost the election," after judges, including judges he put on the bench, have ruled against him in court over and over and over. and the narrative seems to be that he becomes more desperate. he loses in court, he latched on to this utterly inane scheme to use fake electors to change the outcome of the vote there, changing the outcome of the vote nationwide. when that looks like it is designed to fail, he ultimately becomes focused on not interrupting the riot that's going on in the capitol, sitting there for a couple of hours while violence is ongoing, as people tell him that he can stop it and he refuses to do that.

and why jack smith might ask a jury, would the former president stop the violence? you can infer that he intended for it to continue to its logical outcome. he wanted to interfere with governmental processes. at the end of the day, it's that dry sounding crime that prosecutors will take to a jury, but the facts are not dry. we watched them unfold in front of us. >> there's video of all of it. we'll wait together and call you back as soon as we get news on this. joyce vance, thanks so much. jonathan, going back to the man who attacked the police officer on the capitol steps, got just over four years in prison. one of the reasons he got prison time was because of his motive. we should be specific about what he said. he was captured on video saying, quote, every single one of those capitol law enforcement officers, death is the remedy. that is the only remedy they get. that man talking about police officers defending the capitol

against an attack. there's a pattern here, john, that we're seeing. you can pick up the newspaper almost any place you live. this man was from arkansas. you can read about it here in new york, all over the country, about somebody who went to the capitol based on something they heard from donald trump, based on something they heard on the news they watch, the websites they read. they carried out a crime, and immediately when they realized, oh, this is a crime and we're not here on some holy mission, they're going to jail. he had that moment, apparently. if you read the court records, he called his wife and said, "i've done something terrible. i'm going to turn myself in when i get back home to arkansas. "the crime is a crime." doesn't matter if you feel bad about it. a lot are responsible for their actions but driven about the lie you wrote about in your book. >> "death is the remedy," that's a hard thing to hear. yes, that is absolutely right, willie. it was a lie that was months and, frankly, years in the making, that donald trump, from his candidacy in 2016, started

planting the seeds of the idea that an election could be rigged if he were to lose. that he could only lose if it was fixed against him. and he took his time in office where he mainstreamed conspiracy theories, big lies, small lies on matters, you know, of little significance to some of the most important tenants of our democracy. nothing was out of bounds for his lies. he focused in on, of course, the selection and conditioned, encouraged his supporters to not trust their own eyes, not to trust the government, but only to trust his conspiracy theories and commit violence in his name. eugene robinson, as we watched these rioters be tried and convicted and sentenced, when would the person who sent them there be help accountable? >> right. >> it seems we're on the eve of that happening. >> it seems like it, and it has to happen. i mean, you can't punish, you

know, try and punish all the foot soldiers, all the people who carried out this violence, and not work your way up the chain, especially not investigate and, if appropriate, indict the person who inspired it all, the person who riled them up and sent them off to the capitol, to disrupt the certification of a free and fair presidential election that that person lost, and that was donald trump. you know what's really fascinating, that man just sentenced, who believed that the only remedy for the capitol police officers was death, it will be fascinating, years from now when historians look back. i wonder, what was the precondition in american

society? what was the sickness that donald trump was able to exploit? he didn't -- he couldn't have started this all from scratch. there was something there that was waiting to be triggered by a completely unscrupulous political figure like donald trump, and he did it. he continues to do it. he continues to have these adherence. you just wonder, what was the rot, sort of, at the heart of american society that allowed this to happen? >> and the bill comes due. more than 1,000 people have been charged with federal crimes around the capitol attack. more than 600 of them have pled guilty. 600 receiving sentences. hundreds of them now serving jail time because of that lie and because of their actions that day. we'll come back to that story in a moment. a major story overseas, israel's parliament passed a measure that limits the judicial system in

the country. it'll be one to trip sale's supreme court of the power to overturn government actions it deems unreasonable. it sparks intense debate in the israeli parliament. the measure passed by a vote of 64-0 after all the opposition members walked out. joining us now live from tel-aviv, nbc news foreign correspondent raf sanchez. what does it look like there today? >> reporter: well, willie, israelis woke up this morning to a divided nation, a nation potentially more divided than at any other point in its 75 year history. willie, this is what all the major israeli newspaper front pages look like today, all black. it says there in the bottom in hebrew, "a dark day for democracy." that is the feeling among the protesters today. a lot of people very, very worried about the future of this country.

one woman we spoke to yesterday who was protesting outside of parliament had tears in her eyes. she said she did not know what she was going to tell her children about israel's future. a lot of concern for palestinians living in the occupied west bank, for the rights of women, for the lgbtq community, and for the secular half of israel. just to give you a sense of what they're worried about, just hours after that bill went through, weakening the supreme court's ability to be a check on the government, one of netanyahu's religious allies introduced a bill that would put religious studies, studying the torah, on par with national military service. now, it's not clear if that bill is actually going to make it into law or not, but that is the kind of thing that secular israelis are worried about in terms of where their country is headed. there is a of course, another side to this, willie. netanyahu would tell you that this was a necessary reform to curb the power of unelected

judges who, for too long, had been standing in the way of the policy preferences of what does appear to be a growing right-wing majority of israelis in this country. the prime minister addressing the nation last night on primetime, calling for unity, saying that what he did was restoring democracy, not setting it back. in terms of where we go from here, you saw very extreme protests continuing overnight, all over the country. major highways blocked. police using water cannons against demonstrators. today, the doctors are on strike. it is almost impossible to get non-emergency doctors' appointments today in israel because the doctors union is on strike in protest of this bill going through. willie, we are entering uncharted constitutional waters here. the sraeli bar association filed a petition in front of the supreme court, asking the judges to strike down this law to weaken the supreme court. now, if the judges do so, we

really don't know what comes next. neither constitutional scholars nor netanyahu nor the protesters on the streets can tell you what happens after that. one of the other big questions here is what impact this is having on an institution that's supposed to be above politics. that is the israeli military. thousands of israeli military reservists said they will stop showing up for duty because of this. willie, that is having an especially severe impact on the air force, where many of the most experienced pilots are reservists rather than active duty. >> an extraordinary moment in israeli history. raf, as people watching this may wonder why people are so upset in the streets and why this is an extraordinary moment in history, can you explain the system a little bit? here, we have two chambers of congress. here, we have a written constitution. you don't have that in israel,

so the supreme court was, in fact, the check on the prime minister, was the check on the majority in that country. with this new legislation, that goes away. >> reporter: yeah, willie, that's exactly right. so in terms of the separation of powers, you basically in israel have the executive and the legislative essentially fused, right? the executive is the government. the government has a majority in the israeli parliament. there's only one chamber. so if you have a 61-seat majority in parliament, which netanyahu does, there is pretty much nothing inside of the legislature that can stop you from moving ahead with laws that you want, which leaves basically only the supreme court as a check. now, the law that went through yesterday means that the supreme court can no longer rule government actions unreasonable. netanyahu would say unreasonable is an overly vague standard, but i'll give you one example of how it's been used. in the last year, the judges said it was unreasonable when

netanyahu tried to appoint a man with multiple convictions for tax fraud to a senior cabinet position. going forward, it seems moves like that by the government will be able to happen because the supreme court no longer has that standard of unreasonableness to work on. it is unclear what happens with the rest of netanyahu's proposed judicial overhaul. one of the other third-rail elements is he is proposing to give the government more control over the committee which appoints judges to the supreme court. willie? >> nbc's raf sanchez live from tel-aviv, we'll be checking in with you throughout the week. thanks so much. we appreciate it. obviously, elise, this is front page news on newspapers across the country this morning. "the new york times" and "wall street journal" have it on the front page. kind of an extraordinary moment, really, in israeli history, is it not? >> it's huge. and the fact that this was definitely something the biden

administration and many governments that are allied with israel did not want, it's a move away from a secular democracy and towards a religious autocracy. president biden has been careful not to link our aid to israel to their actions, but it does make you wonder if the $3.3 billion or so that we're giving to israel this year -- >> four. >> exactly, if perhaps that needs to be leveraged on strong support of democracy within the country. >> you wonder, willie, looking at these pictures, these scenes, how the israeli government and the israeli people got to the point where they are this morning, are we looking at a potential, this is us in this country? the similarities between donald trump and netanyahu, and the fact that both men seem to think that they are larger than their country, that everything is about them rather than their country, is frightening. >> the white house put out a measured criticism of israel and of this vote yesterday.

we'll get back to this in a bit. still ahead on "morning joe," republican senator mitt romney calling on republican donors to endorse the candidate with the best odds of beating donald trump. we'll read from romney's new op-ed in the "wall street journal," explaining how he expects to pull that off. plus, house speaker kevin mccarthy weighs in on the biden family business dealings, raising the possibility of an impeachment inquiry. we'll show you those remarks. also ahead, democrats on the senate armed services committee pressing mitch mcconnell to end republican tommy tuberville's blockade on military promotions. yes, that's still going on. one of the democrats, senator tammy duckworth, will be our guest. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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tuesday morning of the united states capitol at 6:34 a.m. house speaker kevin mccarthy is raising the possibility of an impeachment inquiry against president biden. he made the remarks during an interview on fox news last night while weighing in on the republican-led investigations into the biden family's business dealings. >> when president biden was running for office, he told the american public he's never talked about business. he said his family has never received a dollar from china, which we now prove is not true. we've only followed where the information has taken us. but -- >> mr. speaker -- >> -- this is rising to the level of impeachment inquiry, which provides congress the

strongest power to get the rest of the knowledge and information needed. because this president has also used something we have not seen since richard nixon, used the weaponization of government to benefit his family and deny congress the ability to have the oversight. i believe we will follow this all the way to the end, and this is going to rise to an impeachment inquiry, the way the constitution tells us to do this, and we have to get the answers to these questions. >> the white house spokesman for oversight responded, ian sams said, quote, instead of focusing on the real issues americans want us to address, like continuing to lower inflation and create jobs, this is what the house gop wants to prioritize. their eagerness to go after the president regardless of their truth is seemingly bottomless. strikes you listening to speaker mccarthy there, other than the one private phone call on january 6th, 2021, we have not heard that level of outrage,

that depth of criticism from kevin mccarthy about donald trump attempting to lead a coup against the united states government, around the 2020 election, taking classified information about nuclear secrets and war plans back to mar-a-lago. he's held that for president biden and his son. >> yeah. let's fact-check him off the top. they haven't proven that there was any wrongdoing here, despite what he said last night. the house gop is kicking up whistleblower after whistleblower alleging wrongdoing but have yet to -- >> have they found the fugitive guy, lemire? >> was it the guy with the one arm? >> the arms dealer. >> yeah, yeah, no, he has been missing. there's another guy who was, i believe, under indictment, federal indictment because of his wrongdoings in this matter. look, they had a couple members of the irs come up last week and did testify that they felt like this should have been a matter that should have been prosecuted further about hunter biden. under oath, they also

acknowledged that, well, actually, superiors disagree with us quite a bit. it is pretty common for it not to happen. eugene robinson, people i've talked to say that the house is hellbent on some impeachment. they think attorney general merrick garland might be a more likely candidate than president biden, but certainly, they're not ruling out the president. i just -- what sort of -- if they do go there for an impeachment inquiry for president biden, i ask you, where are we heading now? impeachment, which is supposed to be rare and almost sacred, it's just being tossed around like another political ploy. is every president going forward going to face some impeachment inquiry? >> short answer, looks like yes. i mean, it looks like this is kind of the default position. much of this republican party in the house at least seems to believe or want to make people

think they believe that the impeachments of president trump were illegal, were totally political, and so they have -- they believe they have a constituency that wants to see them strike back in the same way at joe biden. i think kevin mccarthy is responding to that constituency. so we may be in that situation that you described. we may be in a situation where impeachment becomes a phase of a presidency. >> elise, there is a comic aspect to watching mccarthy speak like that, there is a political aspect, but there is also a tragic aspect to it, in the sense of, are we watching a democracy collapse in full, public view, in plain view, that these people like mccarthy are

talking about impeaching joe biden rather than, "don't look over there. don't look at donald trump"? if any of them were asked, "could you tell us how you feel about peter strager," they wouldn't know what i was talking about, or they wouldn't know the origin of that question. peter strager, who we mentioned earlier in the news, in prison for four years for beating a police officer in the capitol of donald j. trump. they wouldn't know him. they don't care about him. they don't care about the country, i would say. >> i think there would also be confusion over what exactly will biden be impeached over this go-around. his son's shady business dealings? how is that connected to his presidency? you can say it's untoward. you can say it really looks terrible. you can say it reeks of corruption. if the president is not connected, how do you go forward

with an impeachment? i guess they're alleing the irs didn't go hard enough at the president's son. that doesn't seem to rise to the level when, think of how many 1%-ers get away with so much from the irs every year. it furthers the argument we need more agents and should get taxes from people who should be paying the taxes. >> the former irs agents that testified last week before the oversight committee raised their concerns to the trump justice department who didn't make much of them at all. >> exactly. >> as we said, if hunter biden committed a crime, show the evidence, convict him if he is guilty, but they have not proven, as john points out, a connection yet to president biden himself. coming up, we'll get an update on the fighting in ukraine, and with the war in its 17th month, a new book is examining the events that led to russia's invasion. we'll be joined by the author next on "morning joe."

this morning, ukrainians officials are reporting its forces were able to shoot down several launched into kyiv overnight. it comes less than a day after russia accused ukraine of sending drones to moscow and promised retaliation. russia also struck a ukrainian port in the riverar romania, destroying a grain silo in the process. joining us is a russian journalist who fled the country, rather than risk imprisonment as russia clamped down on independent media within the borders. his new book, "war and punishment: putin, zelenskyy and the path to the war in ukraine." >> thank you for having me. >> you trace the history of this invasion which, for some people, they might think it goes back to 2014 or pick your date.

you say you'd have to go back to 1996 to begin this story. >> yeah. i go back to, you would we say, three centuries, ago. >> that, too. >> yeah. this war, putin is trying to justify this war because of history. russia is poisoned with historical myths, and i think we need -- my mission was to debunk the historical myths created by russian propaganda. most of russian historians, unfortunately, were propagandists for all those years and, unfortunately, historians in the west sometimes followed that imperialist historical narrative. so we need to start writing some truthful historical narrative, not imperialist, people's

history of russia. >> what is the big myth at the center of this invasion? >> russians and ukrainians are the same people. ukrainian language is not the real language, but as putin believes, it's like wrong russian. another ridiculous myth that putin ep keeps repeating is tha ukraine was invented by lennon, and it's really funny. he thinks there was no ukraine before 1917, the baltic revolution. there are different myths, and they are deeply rooted in today's political situation. a lot of speculations, for example, in russia, that there is the concept of ukrainian betrayal, back to a legendary figure in history, and the continuing story that ukrainians were betraying russians for so many years.

putin believes in that. >> vladimir putin, so three years ago, four years ago, if you had asked someone as knowledgeable as you are within russia about russian politics, if you asked them, "who does putin talk to? who is putin close to?" you might have come up with lavrov, a few other people, who knows? today, the question is, how isolated is vladimir putin? who does he talk to? how has his isolation affected his conduct of the war in ukraine? >> that's a very good question. he has become very isolated since covid. probably the closest person to him is a russian oligarch, an old time friend. they spent together the lockdown of 2022 -- 2020, yeah. it's important that his father was a well-known soviet

historian, and he was specializing on history of crimea. most of putin's prejudice and historian stereotypes are coming from the father of his closest friend, and, yeah, it's probably the person who literally owns the presidential administration. he is important. >> prigozhin attempted to make a run on putin, but nothing really happened to him in the aftermath. i speculated earlier off camera, is he dead? you said, you know, he seems to probably be alive still, which it's amazing he still lives. how weakened is putin by that incident? and is the war at a point, given the offensive, given all the weapons that have come to the ukrainians in recent months from the allies, are ukrainians in the best position? is this their best shot to actually have as much of a win as possible and get to a

reasonable space to negotiate? >> it's tricky. yes, he is weakened. yes, within the russian elite, it was exposed that the emperor is naked. he used to be considered a grantor of stability, and now he can't control his inner circle. at the same time, is he losing the war? i know that he's pretty much confident about that. he thinks that the time is on his side, and he should wait for the american presidential election. that's obviously his strategy. he wants to appeal to conservatives. probably, you heard that yesterday, he signed an outrageous law that bans any gender changes in russia. he outlawed all transgender people. that's not the kind of issue that russian people are worried about. he tries to speak to american

conservatives, and that's obviously the idea that came up for american consumption, not for russians. he is expecting donald trump to be back in the white house, and according to his calculations, next year, all internationals' support of ukraine will stop with donald trump. >> mikhail, last night, apparently putin bombed a grain warehouse, the ukrainian grain warehouse. he's pulled out of the deal that allowed ukrainian grain to pass through the black sea to reach markets. is this a deliberate move to try to create a famine, to create a shortage of grain in the world and perhaps, in that way, destabilize the coalition of

countries that are resisting this invasion? >> you know, yes, actually, that has been putin's strategy for many years. he is creating that idea. at the same time, you know, i have some doubts about the word "coalition." what we see in reality, russian oil and gas are being exported from russia, and, actually, even european countries, western countries are buying russian oil via the third parties. turkey, arab countries, so it is still possible. russia is not that isolated. so, yes, putin is trying to split the west, to find some partners he can deal with. he is not happy with the grain deal, and he is trying to create

a market, as well. >> is it your sense, as someone who understands putin well, that he has been stunned by the resistance put up by ukraine, the rallying by the west on the side of ukraine? in other words, he thought he'd lift the russian flag in kyiv and parade through the city. has he been surprised by that, and if so, how did it change his strategy? you said something a lot of people believe to be true, he's going to wait until next year's presidential election. if he gets donald trump back in, that's a good thing for him, he thinks. now, you're talking about another year and a half almost. how does this end for a man who, the only claim to victory he wants is to take that land and make it a part of russia again? >> you know, interesting thing about vladimir putin is that he is not a strategic player. he doesn't have a strategy. he has never had any kind of strategy. so he doesn't have a plan b for his ukrainian invasion. he was really confident that the

ukrainians would greet russian soldiers with flowers. once it didn't happen, he doesn't have plan b. he has to wait. he is not a chess player. he is a surfer. he is reacting to anything, what's happening, and he always waits for the situation, for the circumstances to change. he always thinks that he's got the time to wait. he has always been very lucky with that because the western leaders are changing, coming and going, and he remains in kremlin. probably, this is the first time when he might be wrong, because actually, internally, domestically, the time is not on his side. it's obvious that russian elites are shaken by this war, so probably he is not going to be lucky this time. >> vladimir putin as a surfer, there's an image. >> really good one. >> on a bear. >> exactly. the book is "war and

punishment: putin, zelenskyy and the path to russia's invasion of ukraine." mikhail, congratulations on the book. nice to see you. >> thank you. some of the stories making front pages across the country, including another billionaire donor in florida rethinking his support of ron desantis. we'll get into that. plus, our next guest says he sees a, quote, trumpian future for israel. david remnick joins us with his new piece for "the new yorker" when "morning joe" comes right back. ight back just like i stole kelly carter in high school. you got no game dude, that's a foul! and now you're ready to settle the score. game over. and if you don't have the right home insurance coverage, well, you could end up paying for all this yourself. so get allstate, and be better protected from mayhem, yeah, like me. thanks, bro. take a lap, rookie. real mature.

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if it does end up being a joe biden and trump rematch, would you endorse or consider joining a no labels tickets? >> no. no, i think it is a fool's errand. i think it's, like, loading a political shotgun and not knowing who you're going to hit. i think it's -- i just think it's a fool's errand, and i would not get involved. >> a relaxed republican presidential candidate chris christie last night in new

hampshire, dismissing the idea of a third party ticket if the 2024 election is a rematch of 2020. this comes as another prominent republican is calling on big money donors to consolidate support around a candidate that can defeat donald trump in the party's primary. we'll dig into the op-ed from senator mitt romney. welcome back to "morning joe." tuesday, july 25th. mike barnicle, jonathan lemire, elise jordan, eugene robinson. lemire relaxing christie style. nice video poker behind him. very new hampshire. fantastic. loved it. >> yeah. >> the gov is chilling right there. we'll get into more of his analysis of this race as he continues to be really the only strong voice criticiing donald trump on the campaign trail. meanwhile, the grand jury convened by special counsel jack smith will meet today in washington to continue its work on the probe into donald trump's effort to overturn the legitimate results of the 2020

election. it is possible the jury could vote today on whether to indict the former president. the panel normally meets on thursdays, as well, so it could be then. let's bring in nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian. good morning. what are you hearing? >> good morning, willie. we're getting a lot of smoke signals, and it's hard to know exactly how to interpret them, but i think you're right, it is very possible there could be a vote on an indictment today. it's also possible this could push a little bit because, let's not forget, hunter biden is going to plead guilty to the charges in his case on wednesday in delaware. i'm just throwing this out there, but it could be possible that there's some people thinking it wouldn't be a great idea to have all this trump news erupting on a day when hunter biden is facing justice because it would be inevitable complaints that that was a setup when, in fact, of course, it probably wouldn't be. but people may be thinking about

that. look, we're all on indictment watch, as you said, and the one thing i think about this coming indictment is that it's going to be filled with more news and surprises and things we didn't know than perhaps the one on the classified documents case in florida, willie. >> hey, ken, it's jonathan. let's talk about some of the other people beyond donald trump who potentially could face an indictment here. we keep hearing names like mark meadows or rudy giuliani or other trump allies. now, we only know of trump himself because he told us, received a target letter, but is there a sense -- we know the investigation is still moving forward. we've been talking about it this morning. they're still bringing people in and out of the courtroom there. could this -- could we see other names, others in trump's orbit also face indictments in the days or weeks ahead? >> jonathan, it is a possibility.

it is a perplexing mystery because we've been beating the bushes since donald trump announced he'd gotten a target letter, trying to determine whether anyone else involved in the investigation had gotten one. we've not been able to confirm anyone has, including likely suspects, including jeffrey clark, the former justice department official, john eastman, the former lawyer who is advising trump on the fake electors' scheme, both of whom had their phones seized by federal agents, so right in the crosshairs. as i talk to legal experts, there are two minds about this. there are a lot of people who believe this will be a conspiracy indictment filled with names, other names besides donald trump. obviously, there were a group of people who were scheming to overturn the 2020 election in a lot of different ways. they were bringing proposals to the white house and communicating among each other. they were putting pressure on state officials. as you said, that includes rudy giuliani, john eastman, jeff clark and other names that our viewers probably are less familiar with. but, you know, it's also

possible that the justice department has decided that they're only going to charge donald trump for strategic reasons. you know, there were some people that thought it was a mistake to bring that indictment in florida against walt nauta, the valet and butbutler, and the presidenf the united states. some thought it was odd, but they chose to indict both men. there's a lot of evidence suggesting that other people are culpable in the sorts of charges that we be believe are on the table with the former president. >> ken, when you look at what we now have learned from the indictments that have been issued thus far, not just in the documents case, but the evidence that is poured out in news reports and the various papers who have been covering this thing for 2 1/2 years, is there any sense of regret that you come across within the department of justice, that jack

smith's arrival, you know, may have been too late? it could have come a year and a half or two years ago, and what a change that would have made in the tone and tenor and outcome of these possible indictments? >> well, mike, there's certainly, i think, an acknowledgment that the justice department was slow to really begin to pick up its investigation of the sort of white collar aspect of the january 6th conspiracy, if you want to look at it that way. you know, there was a great effort right at the beginning to go after the people who stormed the capitol. there were some decisions made. there were people who wanted to immediately start investigating everybody and start vacuuming up phone records and email. there were some decisions made not to do that. there was a concern about violating people's rights, so that wasn't done. it was only really after the january 6th committee exposed to the world some of these

extraordinary plots, including, remember, a plot to use the levers of power at the justice department to try to say there was fraud and to try to pressure states to hold, you know, special sessions of their legislature. to me, that was one of the most dangerous episodes of the whole thing. we learned about it in the january 6th committee, then the justice department really started investigating this. now, if they indict this case, it's very unlikely it could go to trial before the 2024 election, given the complexity of this case, as we understand it. so i think, i'm sure there's regret, mike. you don't hear people talk about it a lot, but there is an acknowledgment that this took a bit of time and maybe it didn't have to. >> may take a while, especially given the former president has another case on the docket for may of next year. ken dilanian on indictment watch this morning, thanks so much. republican senator mitt romney is asking donors to help

narrow the gop primary field to prevent donald trump from winning the nomination. he made the plea in a "wall street journal" op-ed titled, "donors, don't fund a trump plurality." romney writes, a baker's dozen republicans are hoping to become the 35rty's 2024 nominee for president. that is possible for any of them if the field narrows to a two-person field. for that to happen, republican megadonors and influencers should get candidates they support to agree to withdraw if their paths to the nomination are effectively closed. the decision day should be february 26th, the monday following the contests in iowa, new hampshire, nevada and south carolina. left to their own inclinations, expect several of the contenders to stay in the race for a long time. they will split the non-trump vote, giving him the prize. our party and our country need a nominee with character, driven by something greater than revenge and ego, preferably from the next generation. elise, that's from senator mitt

romney in a new op-ed. is that plausible? he's not telling people to get out of the race today. he's saying, once it becomes clear who the front-runner is, who the viable alternative to donald trump might be after south carolina, new hampshire, iowa, people should get out. we've heard this argument in other elections. it never happens that way. >> i completely agree with senator romney on the practicalities of what he is suggesting and how it is the most logical effort to prevent donald trump from winning the primary. but is it going to happen? there's a lot of ego involved with everyone who is running. are people really going to be willing to drop out for the greater cause of preventing donald trump from winning again? i'm skeptical. but you see there are some candidates, at least chris christie, he does seem just hellbent on taking donald trump out of the race. maybe he's, you know, the one person who would drop, but i'm glad that senator romney wrote

this op-ed. it gives me such deja vu, watching what's happening, pause because it is the 2016 primary all over. talking to other operativespaig were saying, it's going to happen all over again. it's good he is coming out early and saying, "let everyone have their chance, but let's be realistic when the time comes to be realistic." >> there is the obvious question, mike. is there any viable alternative to donald trump? is there actually anyone in the group of 13 or so who could beat donald trump, even head-to-head? >> the interesting thing when you talk to moderate republicans, and you have to really search to find moderate republicans these days, but when you talk to them, they mention the word "comfortable." they'd be comfortable voting for this specific republican candidate opposed to another. one of the candidates, and he's not a candidate, that they talk most about being comfortable with is mitt romney. you just wonder, what would happen if romney could enter.

could he regain the nomination he had in 2012? how would it work out for him and the country? >> feels like a lifetime ago. joining the conversation, jon meacham, the editor of the new yorker, david remnick. jon, big picture thoughts. we just talked to ken dilanian on the eve of a likely third indictment for the former president of the united states. what are your thoughts on a former president of the united states running for a non-consecutive term while he will be on trial, perhaps in multiple cases? >> that used to be the virtual reality scenario that constitutional scholars would worry about. look, it's the most serious

thing you can imagine. i mean, here's a former president who attempted to subvert the constitution that he was sworn to protect. maybe that sounds sentimental to some people, but if we don't have an allegiance, not only to the substance of law but to its spirit, then we don't have a functioning constitutional republic. full stop. i don't believe any person is above the law. that's a central incite about the broad western tradition that really, in many ways, found its fullest manifestation, however imperfectly, in 1776 and 1787. was much more fully ralized in the aftermath of the civil war and the reconstruction amendments, to try to make equality before the law a real

principle. and just because you have a lot of supporters does not mean you are above the law. and so i think this is a test fundamentally, we're seeing it in israel to some extent, this is a test of whether we're up to democracy. are we able, or is there a strong number of us able to put aside momentary passions and appetites to say, you know what, the durability of the system is more important than this judge or that tax rate. if we can't do that, if it is total war, we have to take what comes. >> david remnick, isn't it more likely that the republican candidates for the nomination will not take mitt romney's advice, and that each of them will say, "yeah, that's right, everybody else should drop out. it ought to be me"? it does sort of clear the way

for donald trump to be the nominee. if so, do we have a democratic election? do we have a democracy while donald trump runs against joe biden and in the aftermath? >> well, none of these candidates are duty bound by law to drop out. they might be duty bound by conscience, as mitt romney suggests, but conscience is not in the constitution. look at the numbers. donald trump has tremendous support. mike barnicle was just talking about moderate republicans, and he's right, but where are they? how many of them are there? donald trump has exacerbated tribalism in this country like no other politician, and this morning in "the new yorker," i was trying to draw a comparison between benjamin netanyahu, who is under indictment, possibly facing trial and conviction, and he's crashing an entire

political system and a political culture in his own self-interest. that should sound pretty familiar to us. we have donald trump under multiple indictments for crimes far more serious than anything netanyahu is facing, and he is willing to crash the entire political culture. he always has been, even before these indictments, in his own self-interest, whether it is monetary, political or for his own unbelievably bloviated ego. >> david, we'll get to your piece there about the israeli comparisons in a moment. jon meacham, first to you. just this idea that, you know, we're on the precipice of donald trump being indicted for a third time, a fourth feels likely, as well, in georgia in the weeks ahead. we have talked at length about how his fellow republican rivals, with few exceptions, don't really criticize him for it. but i want to get your take on just the vetvoters, those who sl

support donald trump. the polls show he is far and away the favorite to be their nominee next year, when i think in any other decade in our nation's history, if you had suggested a candidate was going to have all these things before him, it would be inherently disqualifying. not only is it not disqualifying, he's got a legitimate chance to be president again. >> oh, i don't think it's -- i think you're asking precisely the right question, and you wrote a book that explored all this. it's not disqualifying. in fact, for a significant portion of people, it actually underscores his appeal. an extraordinary number of folks in the country don't trust the systems of government that they are not explicitly in charge of, right? so there is a crisis of

authority in the country. every poll, we can stipulate that, right? i mean, in 1965, i think, something like 90% of americans trusted the federal government to do the right thin some or most of the time. now, it'd be difficult to find six or seven. so you have these collapsing systems of trust, and so the more trump can say, "the people who have taken your country away, right, are trying to take me out," then that actually energizes that base. to me, the delta in this is -- i'm making up the number -- but there's probably 12% to 15% of what mike was talking about, right? there are some moderate republicans. they're in witness protection, but they might get a mail-in ballot. what's so striking is those are the folks who, for various

reasons of partisanship, have decided that trump, as damaged as he is, is preferable to the incumbent president. i don't have a partisan enough brain myself to fully understand that emotionally. i understand it intellectually because it's a data point. but all of our conversations, and, in fact, the fate, in many ways, for this generation of the constitution, which may sound grand, but we've seen an insurrection, we're seeing what we're seeing. if grandeur is required, let's do it. the fate of this may hinge on enough people being able to say, "i disagree with x, y and z. but, by matters more." what number of those 401(k)

republicans, we've called them peter malarves republicans, how many decide they can vote for the president opposed to the former president? that may decide everything. >> a term you coined on the show, men's grill enablers, which has stuck with us around here. >> yes. >> jon, you and i have had this conversation on and off the air, which is, people we know very well, old line republicans, reagan, bush republicans, people who liked mitt romney and john mccain and believe that character is important, who mocked donald trump in 2015 and the early stages of 2016, he's a joke, a clown, i'd never do business with him, influential men and women in their own right, hopped on board in 2016. the explanation was, oh, it can't be hillary. are you hearing when you speak to those people that we both know very well, are you seeing any cracks in their support of donald trump? do they say, "well, if it comes down to him or biden, i have to

go with trump again?" >> i've heard more of the disturbing scenario than i would like to have. i think that the -- everybody is on a wing and a prayer, thinking something is going to happen, right? i call this the glenn youngkin fantasy scenario, right? the great hope of the men's grill enablers is, somehow or another, glenn youngkin is going to, you know, come in like the end of shakespeare with his vest, with his private equity background, he is going to solve everything. suddenly, it's going to be, you know, 1984 again. i go with god, but it's not a -- it's not a particularly, seems to me, plausible, tactical path.

it is a strategic hope, not a tactical path. again, the question to me, and they may not -- sorry. they may not tell us, right? the margin in this election may be that some of these folks end up voting for president biden but can't admit it because it'll mess up the golf round, and so maybe they're just going to do it and shake their heads, you know, when their harder core friends talk about how terrible it is that trump lost. i think this is the story we have to tell. i think it's the case we have to make. i say this as somebody who is deeply sympathetic, as you know and mike knows, with that reagan, bush 41 world. this is not coming from a trotsky-ite. >> jon meacham putting it into clear perspective. great to see you. perhaps one of the most esteemed

member of the vanderbilt university faculty. jon, great to see you. >> he's not a trotsky-ite. huge reveal. turning to israel. despite hundreds of thousands of people engaged in mass protests across the country and in jerusalem specifically, israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu successfully passed an overhaul of the country's supreme court yesterday. nbc news foreign correspondent raf sanchez has the latest. >> reporter: the streets of israel erupting into chaos. protesters blocking major roads, chaining themselves together in front of the country's parliament. a last-ditch effort by opponents of the government's controversial plan to weaken the supreme court. but it wasn't enough. israeli police are using water cannons to clear the roads. they're tracking down hard, but the protesters say they'll stay on the streets. three injuries with a car

ramming. the overhaul passing 64-5. the conservative religious government voting for it, while opposition lawmakers walked out in protest. the plan takes away the supreme court's power to nullify some government decisions. netanyahu allies say liberal judges had been incorrectly overturning actions of the conservative majority. netanyahu saying, "fulfilling the will of the voters is not the end of democracy. it's the essence of democracy." but opponents of the plan say they're afraid for their country. >> i'm worried about my future, my children's future. >> reporter: these military reservists say they'll no longer serve in protest of the new law. some of them veterans of netanyahu's old commando community. >> i think he is the first dictator of israel. >> david remnick, in your piece, "in israel, a glimpse of a trumpian future." you write, does this sound familiar?

a cynical and self-admiring politician finds himself confronting the legal conscience consequences of his own misdeeds. to defend himself of the consequences of his acts, he doesn't hire lawyers, he tries to stay in power. and to obtain power, he is willing to deepen and inflame the worst tribal conflicts this his country. he's willing to undermine the rule of law. to find common cause with the hateful voices in society and place them by his side. the eagerness to put self-before country, of course, is the common thread between two profoundly unprincipled politicians, benjamin netanyahu and donald trump. writes david remnick in "the new yorker." david, if you can speak to just how extraordinary this moment in israel is and why it is and what it means for the future of the country, and i think you lay out well the parallel between the two leaders. >> yeah, in its 75 year history

as a state, israel has faced no shortage of crises, particularly in conflict with the palestinians and many wars over that period of time. yet, yesterday, i was getting calls from friends in israel telling me this is the worst day in the history of the state. because in their view, and obviously this is the liberal view, one-half of society's view, that the constitution -- there is no constitution in israel, but democratic norms are being undermined. tribalism is being deepened. the balances of power, which exist only minimally in israel, are being eroded by this act. and this act is only the first step in a further erosion of a democratic israel. now, it's impossible to have a fully democratic israel without resolving, in my view, the

palestinian question, but all democratic societies have lingering crises, too. certainly we do. but to see society divided to this degree, to see hundreds and thousands of people on the street, not just once or twice but for the last 29 weeks, to see military reservists, including air force pilots who are considered to be the protectors, the grantors of israel's existence, say they will refuse to serve is a crisis like we've never seen before in israel. >> david, you write about how this moment is different from over a decade ago in 2012 when netanyahu campaigned on preserving the rule of law. certainly, politicians change their tune frequently when they actually are in power versus campaigning, but can you talk about this moment over a decade

later, the charges netanyahu faces and how that is impacting what he does with his power? >> well, all politicians sooner or later lie. i do think netanyahu abuses the privilege. he does it with such frequency, it is almost comical at this point. you remember his speech at the university when he said he'd resolve the palestinian question, that there will be a palestinian state even. that was preposterous and a gesture to the americans at that time. in 2012, he came in front of the country and gave an important address and said he would reject any notion of undermining the authority of the supreme court or the court system itself. now, here he is. so you asked about the charges against him. compared to the charges against trump, they are modest, but they are charges, real criminal charges of corruption, accepting favors from supporters, material favors if supporters for political preference.

they're real charges. his political calculation, if this goes through, and it has now, this change in the law and the way things are done in israel, it helps him stay in power. he has proved over -- he has been the prime minister longer than anyone, longer than ben-gurion, in the history of the state. he has proved his first priority is always that, and he'll see to the desires of the tribe that keeps him in office. right now, israel has the most radical, the most extremist government in its history, and netanyahu has allowed himself to be, to his advantage, part of their idealogical drive. this is just the beginning. >> the piece is "in israel, a glimpse of a trumpian future." you can read it online in "the

new yorker." david remnick, great to have you on. >> good to be here. extreme weather making summer mierable for millions of you. forecasters say the worst is yet to come with the brutal heat across the south expanding to many other parts of the country. we'll have a live report from minnesota. expecting temperatures in the triple digits this week. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. shingles. the rash can feel like an intense burning sensation and last for weeks. it can make your workday feel impossible. the virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you. 50 years or older? ask your doctor about shingles. as americans, there's one thing we can all agree on. the promise of our constitution and the hope that liberty and justice is for all people. but here's the truth. attacks on our constitutional

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be there today? >> reporter: willie, it is going to be bad. obviously, we're in a place that, as you know, is known for bone-chilling cold. here in minneapolis, lakeside beaches like this are expected to be packed this week as temperatures soar to close to 100 degrees, as that brutal heat wave you talked about baking the southwest, frankly, just continues to spread. the relentless heat now affecting even more of the country. >> real hot. 100 degrees, triple digits for, what, four days. >> reporter: from st. louis to south florida. >> nothing you can really do. nothing you can do. it's hot. >> reporter: to arizona, where patients are being hospitalized for severe, even life-threatening third-degree burns, caused by contact with the scorching ground. doctors at the burn center at valley wise hospital in phoenix say they're treating two to three times more patients than in a typical summer. across europe, hundreds of

millions are suffering through extreme heat, where josh lederman says many are evacuating. >> imagine the terror as the fire swept through here. tourists tell me they had just minutes to flee. some still in their bathing suits, walking mile after mile to safety. this fire is nowhere near out. >> reporter: back in the u.s., health experts say high temperatures are especially dangerous for pregnant women like kristin, who moved from buffalo to sweltering ft. worth, texas. >> i literally felt my skin burning, and i'm like, this doesn't feel right. >> reporter: everyone, no matter how hit, can be vulnerable to heat-related illnesses. this 24-year-old mountain biker lost his life while helping dehydrated hikers in the desert east of san diego. his passing a sobering reminder of how quickly extreme heat can become deadly, even if you're young and athletic.

of course, we just hurt for the family of that mountain biker. in minneapolis, we talked about temperatures and how hot it's expected to get. the high tomorrow is forecasted to be 97. that is, of course, just shy of the daily record for that day of 100 degrees here in minneapolis. that tells you how extreme this is. meantime, more broadly, amid our climate crisis, earth scientists say we're on track to have the hottest july and hottest month ever recorded. it'll get worse unless humans make drastic changes, willie? >> enjoy the relative cool this morning. as you say, it is going up about 30 degrees. maggie vespa live for us in minneapolis. maggie, thanks so much. this morning, bloomberg is out with a new investigative report on how american made guns are making their way to foreign countries. thailand is purchasing the largest amount of american firearms. just a decade ago, the u.s. prohibited a plan put forward by the gun manufacturer to sell

firearms to thailand. how did we get here? joining us now, one of the reporters of the bloomberg report, david, good to have you this morning. let's walk through this with the viewers and how and why thailand became a huge market for american firearms. >> you know, in the u.s. since the expiration of the assault weapons ban in 2004, there has been a big push among gun industries to sell weapons overseas. the u.s. now has 400 million guns, which is more guns than people, so they need to find other places to build a target. thailand, which always had its own gun culture, has been a big market for the u.s. but the thing about guns is, as we see in ukraine, when countries send weapons overseas, they want to make sure who they're going to. make sure they're not diverted to terrorists or oppressive governments. there's always been control over where they go. in thailand in 2014, because of the coup, it was sales,

attempted sales that were blocked. civil rights abuses. there were tortured in prison. the state department, which regulated it, turned it down, but that didn't stop sig. >>sig had a deal to send 150 handguns to the police in thailand. deal was blocked. what opened the floodgates since then? how did that restriction that had been there from the state department, how did that get overturned? >> couple things. first of all, since the obama administration, there has been a push to loosen regulations on gun exports and actually transfer it from the state department, which gives a lot of overview for civil rights and human rights abuses to the commerce department, which is actually, its job is to support u.s. businesses and u.s. exports. so there has been a movement as early as 2012 to loosen it. that was actually going to go

through in 2012, but when the shooting in newtown, connecticut, happened, the children were killed, they thought it was bad optics. they pushed it off. when the trump administration came in, the plan had been ready made. they picked it up and started to loosen some of the weapons. sig, in addition, used a lot of lobbying. they hired mike pence's former bundler, fundraiser for mike pence. they hired lobbyists in washington. they'd done a lot to cozy up to the trump administration. they met president trump the month before he ran for office. he went and toured in new hampshire, which is where sig is based and where the first republican primary is. it is a good place to make friends on the right. they started a long lobbying campaign. there was pressure on the state department to eventually let the sale go through. >> david, let's talk volume.

it is not just sig, but what oh countries are grabbing the weapons by the thousandsome. >> 3.7 million semiautomatics have been sent over the past deade and a half. thailand is a big one. philippines is another area of concern. duterte, the dictator there, threatened to have his secret police go shoot drug users on the street, to feed them to the fish in manila bay. for a while, the u.s. blocked gun sales there, but in 2020, a sale was approved. in guatemala, where there has been an increase in crime, a lot of problem with corruption, they've gotten an increase of guns in recent years. like i said, there's always been controls on it that the state department and the commerce department. the switch was supposed to give

the controls and more enforcement, but we haven't seen it. we've seen an increase in guns. it was supposed to increase sales by 20%, but it's probably double. we asked the state department and biden administration to show where the enforcement led to tighter restrictions, and they didn't provide anything. >> you write about how the weapons sig sauer manufactured in germany, because they couldn't send the weapons to colombia, they mailed them to new hampshire, and from the u.s., they were mailed to colombia. >> yeah. >> is that legal? is that seems a little sketch yn y. >> yeah, well, first overseas deal was colombia in 2009. they were going to ship them to the police. the problem was, they were based in germany. they hadn't started manufacturing much in the u.s., so they had to send guns from germany, but it was illegal under german law. germany forbid people from sending guns to conflict zones.

colombia had a big problem, so they sent them to the u.s. said they were for the civilian market. relabeled them, and it was in a boat, you know, by shipping. when there is corrosion here and the people in germany found the americans were relaying to colombia, it started an uproar. there was an investigation. the ceo ofsig sauer was put in jail for three weeks during the trial. he and the owner of the company pled guilty and paid the biggest export fine in german history. after that, the company kind of decided they'd go to a place where there wasn't restrictive gun laws. they moved all their manufacturing to the united states. >> david, what has been the impact on the thai society, on the philippines? we know what guns have done to our could tureculture. what do they mean there? >> philippines, police and academics say they've had their own gun culture and guns come from outside of the u.s., but the sales by sig sauer were some

of the biggest in u.s. exports. they've so flooded the market, it's really hard for the average thai to get a gun. there's gun control, but there is a loophole. they sell something called the gun welfare program. police officers, former police officers can pie them as a cut rate. that's where the guns went. there were hundreds of thousands. they found their way to the black market. they found their way to a lot of crime scenes. the one we talk about in the story is a horrific killing in a day care center, 36 people were killed. many of which were a sig gun. >> fascinating, the report from bloomberg. david, thanks for bringing it to us. appreciate it. up next, new reporting on the turmoil inside the ron desantis presidential campaign, as the florida governor is said to be burning through cash. later this morning, democratic senator, armed services committee member tammy duckworth will be our guest. we'll talk to the combat veteran about the blockade of military promotions by republican senator tuberville.

that and much more when "morning joe" comes right back. ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ ( ♪♪ ) constant contact's advanced automation lets you send the right message at the right time, every time. ( ♪♪ ) constant contact. helping the small stand tall.

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westy looking for his home run. just a matter of time. >> drives this to right field. to the corner, down the line, and there is number one. >> how about the baltimore orioles? that is jordan westberg, first home run of his career. getting the scoring started in philly. orioles beat the phillies, 3-2, extending their lead atop the a.l. east. they're up 2 1/2 games ahead of the rays. in milwaukee, cincinnati reds rookie de la cruz was robbed of a lead-off home run last night on a leaping catch in centerpiece. look at that grab. taking it away. when de la cruz approached the plate for his second at-bat in the third inning, he was met by

a greeting on the brewers scoreboard that read, de la cruz almost hit a home run in the first inning but didn't. here's how he responded to the attempt at trolling. >> de la cruz, high fly, deep right center. gone! >> the message was still glowing on the scoreboard as he hit that bomb. de la cruz sent the first pitch 456 feet over the center field wall, under the concourse for a two-run home run. brewers won, though, on yelich's walk-off in the end. mike, the orioles, great story. lowest payroll in baseball, atop the american league. >> they finished last for so many seasons and got the number one pick for years. they have one of the best catchers in the major leagues, basically a rookie.

fantastic club down there. fantastic ballpark. it's great for the city of baltimore, charm city. i'm happy to see it. even though my red sox suffered as a result of it. i'm happy to see it. >> john, it comes at our expense. our teams tied in the cellar, nine games as we were discussi yankees and red sox, two games out of the wild card. that's it. anything could happen. for the orioles, i don't want to jinx anything, this is the 40th anniversary of the last appearance in a world series, a world series they won in 1983. >> yeah, that's right, willie. frustrating as this season has been for red sox and yankees fans, we're still right there. every team in that division is over .500, a couple of games out. yankees had a sweep over the weekend against the orioles. red sox got healthy with a very disappointing new york mets and that's why both teams probably are not sellers at the deadline. too close to the wild card, as are the angels. there is a belief they'll hang on to ohtani and the orioles are

a wonderful story. they're one of the franchises where when they're good, it is better for the game. because of that ballpark, because of that tradition, and they haven't been good in a while. they're a fun young team positioned to make a deal at the deadline to get better. go for it. >> yeah, fun to watch. i think one of our two teams is going to sneak into the wild card spot and make a run. >> you think so, huh? >> that's my prediction. i don't know which one. >> we'll write that down. >> yankee legends, casey stengel once said no baseball pitcher would be worth a darn without a catcher who could handle the hot fastball. then there is the backup catcher. as our next guest writes, if you work your whole young life to become strong and clever, to see the game in ways others don't or can't, if you commit wholly to yourself, the group, the win and today, if you then will give it all away, then you will be the backup catcher. joining us now, long time national baseball columnist and "new york times" best-selling author tim brown, his latest book "the towel of the backup

catcher." it is great to have you with us this morning. growing up, i used to love the backup catcher. i was a yankee fan. it was barry foot or butch wineger. tell us about the idea behind the book and why the backup catchers are such fascinating characters. >> well, i think you're an athlete, you get the folks on your team whose value somehow adds up to more than their tools, more than their talents. and for me, 30 years covering the game, every time i walked into a clubhouse, my favorite guy was the backup catcher. they were humble. they were accessible. they're welcoming. they had this great perspective on the world. and i think i just sort of chased that for 30 years and, oh, about five or six years ago came upon a guy named eric kratz who spent 19 years in pro ball,

14 different organizations, nine different teams in the major leagues, was part of 120 different transactions, and i thought, what better way to tell the story of not just one backup catcher, or all the backup catchers, but this culture of backup catchers and what they bring to a clubhouse, what they bring to a team, they are the journeyman's journeyman and for my money they are the soul of baseball. this is -- when i think of baseball, i think of these guys. >> you know, tim, you so aptly described the state and the art of the backup catcher. and i was thinking of several of them as you were just talking. david ross probably the most prominent backup catcher and the gifts he brought when he was with the red sox and every other team he was with, but specifically with the red sox, within the locker room. as well as his skill behind the

plate, when he would occasionally played, and he played more and more often, but the interesting thing to me about backup catchers is how many of them go on to become fairly good major league managers because of their experience as a backup catcher. >> yeah, i would agree with that. as it so happens of the 30 current big league managers, 14 spent all or parts of their careers as a backup catcher. and i think a big part of that is like you and me, they watched a lot of baseball over the years and i think that they learned how to lead a group. they learned how to connect to a group. they stood next to managers. they sat next to pitching coaches. they discovered what worked, what didn't in a clubhouse, what wins games that you can't quantify. i think if you look at a 26-man

roster, 25 of those men will fit into an analytical model, the new game is very analytics forward. one of those guys is just a good hard working person who can connect with teammates, who makes the guy next to him better. and this is as i was writing the book and speaking to dozens of these guys, it occurred to me that it is not just about baseball, it is about life. it is about who these guys are. this is who we want to be. we're all on our journey, you don't know where the journey goes, but you can decide who you're going to be on that journey and i think every good backup catcher does that. >> tim, congrats on the book. my favorite backup catcher story is the time the white sox sent a police escort to catch tim wakefield's ball. the backup catcher who is not in there every day, he has to put

his own game second. he's behind the plate, and he's trying to get the call for his pitcher. even if it means, well, i might not get that one, i'm at the plate, at the bat. talk to us about how that informs the philosophy of this particular position. >> i think a massive percentage of -- to your point -- no hitters, for example, are caught by backup catchers, because of this commitment to the other guy. there are very few people in the world who can hit a 100 mile an hour fastball. their value to a team is making the next guy better and oftentimes that guy is 60 feet, 6 inches away and they built this confidence, this relationship, and it is not just over three hours. backup catchers are really good at winning baseball games in the 21 hours around the game. and that means being a father

figure, a big brother, a spiritual adviser, a drinking buddy, whatever you need, and along the way, in those four days between starts for a starting pitcher, that's what they're building together, that relationship, that ability to understand what each other is thinking in a given moment. >> as you point out, with the example of bill plummer, the back jump on the reds in the 1970s to johnny bench, part of the job is to hear the boos when your name is announced because they came to see the starter, they came to see johnny bench. it is a fun new book, titled "the tao of the backup catcher: playing baseball for the love of the game." tim brown, congrats on the book. thank you for being here today. >> thank you, willie. have a great day. >> you too. coming up next, donald trump could face a potential third indictment as early as this week with the grand jury convened by special counsel jack smith meeting today in washington. we'll have more on the likely charges trump faces and the impact on the 2024 presidential

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relatively soon. >> the question this morning is how soon? we're back on indictment watch again for donald trump. all signs pointing to a second federal indictment for the former president, work through the possible timeline in a moment. also ahead, more partisan politics from the republican-controlled house as speaker kevin mccarthy floats an impeachment inquiry for president biden. we'll get into that. plus, a live report from israel on the fallout from a monumental vote by that country's

parliament, limiting a key power of its supreme court and sparking massive protests across the country. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, july 25th. with us, msnbc contributor, our good friend mike barnicle, former aide to the george bush state department, elise jordan, the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire. yes, a good friend. i say that, yeah, yeah. he was waiting for it. i saw you needed it, john, i put it in there. and pulitzer prize winning columnist, associate editor of the washington post, another dear friend on a summer morning, eugene robinson. good morning to you all. so the grand jury convened by special counsel jack smith will meet today in washington to continue its work on the probe into donald trump's efforts to overturn the legitimate results of the 2020 presidential election. possible the jury will vote today on whether to indict the former president. the panel normally meets on thursdays as well.

so it could be that day. here is what former acting u.s. solicitor general neil katyal had to say last night on msnbc. >> whether it's tomorrow or thursday as andrew weizman says, or possibly in two weeks, i think all indications are donald trump is going to get indicted. jack smith sent a target letter to donald trump last sunday. you don't do that particularly against a former president unless you're pretty sure that you got the goods. >> meanwhile, president -- the former president continues to fund-raise off of his legal trouble. in a campaign email last night, he proclaimed himself an innocent man, as you might expect, adding, quote, our country could truly use your support right now. send me some money, subtext. in anotherer, he compared the united states under president joe biden to stalinist russia and maoist china. nowhere does it say you'll be donating directly to trump's

2024 campaign. why? because as "the washington post" reports, more than half the money donald trump raised in the second quarter of this year went to footing his legal bills, not the campaign himself. he's a billionaire, asking supporters to pay his legal bills. jonathan lemire, you're in washington where everyone is waiting for the potential today, maybe thursday, could be next week, we don't know when this indictment could come down. not really a question of if, given the target letter as neal pointed out. we saw last week, but when. >> yeah, willie, i'm in washington all week and the capitol city is abuzz. there is anticipation, this is a matter of days. as noted, the grand jury meets tuesdays, thursdays, there has been a lot of chatter here in the beltway that today could be the day the grand jury votes to indict media trucks are lined up outside the courthouse where the grand jury has been meeting, where jack smith and his team have been moving in and out of for months now. what is a strong investigation, one that we all sort of

short-handed as the january 6th investigation, and to be clear, former president trump's actions that day or should we say inaction that day is a part of this. fueling that riot at the capitol, some violence committed in his name. but it is more than january 6th. it is the election interference investigation, the probe into trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election. it is a sprawling massive one that we're hearing about new people coming before the grand jury, but it seems we're now a matter of days before that indictment, historic second federal indictment of a former president. and this one the nation is watching with bated breath because of the ramifications of the upcoming campaign. and certainly on the history books. we have never been here before. and it seems like we're in the final hours of this probe. >> it really is an extraordinary moment, mike barnicle, in the history of the country, two federal indictments.

we have a trial date in florida for the mar-a-lago documents case of may 24th of next year. that's on the docket. and now we may get a date coming up here in the next several weeks for another federal case that the former president could be facing while he's seeking to head back to the white house. >> jonathan said we have never been here before. and in a sense that is obviously true. in another sense, we have been here before. we have been here before with former president of the united states was indicted a few months ago, he's been indicted how many times now? >> two. >> two and then imminent third. >> not only have we been here before, this in a sense, when you look at it, and you think about it, you think of everything we hear from all the extras we talked to, it is both predictable and yet enormously sad, a former president of the united states -- >> i think we have to look at this as not simply an election process, an election campaign up

until november 2024. the stakes are higher for donald trump. he's using the campaign platform to essentially fight these indictments and to stay out of legal trouble. this has become more of a referendum on the future of american democracy. will voters on either side accept the results of the next election when donald trump is telling his supporters that the election is rigged, that he was cheated in 2020, how is that going to get any better in 2024? >> will they accept -- will they accept the fact that former president of the united states is -- could be about to go to trial? >> right. and, gene robinson, we'll get into the story in a moment, this does get at what elise touched on, will this lie persist? will, if donald trump loses the

2024 presidential election, if he makes it that far to the general, will he say he won that one and will people learn the lesson of that or is that now just a piece of the republican politic, if you lose an election, just say you won and see what happens? >> well, i think we can answer that first question, if he makes it all the way, makes it through the primary, becomes the republican candidate, makes it all the way to the election without being, you know, convicted and thrown in jail, or having to step out of the race because of his legal troubles or whatever, obviously he's going to come in victory no matter what happens, he's going to claim he actually won, it was rigged, we have heard it all before. the question is whether that has diminishing currency among voters, even when we get to that point. and you have to guess that there

will be a core, a hard core of trump supporters who will believe everything he says. and believe he's being persecuted and that by extension that they are being persecuted because he -- their leader is being persecuted. but will that hard core shrink? will it -- and i think you have to -- you have to guess that probably it will, but maybe it won't, we just don't know. we are in unchartered territory. >> so more on the lie that got donald trump into this trouble. former acting deputy attorney says he has been interviewed by jack smith's office. he's not been called to testify before the grand jury investigating the 2020 election and january 6th. the former doj official told house lawmakers last year he repeatedly pushed back against baseless claims of a stolen election that were being pedaled

by trump and his allies. here is some of what donoghue testified to about a conversation he had with then president trump, just days before the capitol insurrection. >> let's take a look at another one of your notes. you also noted that mr. rosen said to mr. trump, quote, doj can't and won't snap its fingers and change the outcome of the election. how did the president respond to that, sir? >> he responded very quickly and said, essentially, that's not what i'm asking you to do. what i'm asking you to do is just say it was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the republican congressmen. >> that was june of last year before the january 6th committee. donoghue also said he threatened to resign during oval office meeting in early january 2021 when trump came close to installing election denying environmental lawyer jeffrey clark as attorney general. also, special counsel jack smith's office also now has thousands of pages of documents from an ally of rudy giuliani

who failed to find evidence of voter fraud after the 2020 election. an attorney for former new york city police commissioner bernie kerrick handed over the information on sunday. in a post on social media, kerrick wrote he was subpoenaed several months ago and his lawyer recently received waivers from donald trump's team to release them. his attorney confirmed turning over the documents, adding he, quote, looks forward to sitting down with them in about two weeks to discuss. let's bring into the conversation, former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama, and an msnbc legal analyst, joyce vance. joyce, good morning. let's start with indictment watch here. what do you suspect is going on inside the grand jury room, what is going on inside the special counsel's office, how soon might we expect an announcement of what most people believe will be an indictment of the former president? >> so i think that is obviously the question that we're all fixated on. what is the real timeline here?

and unfortunately for us as observers, it is awfully tough to say at this point. on the one hand, sending the target letter, telling the former president if his retelling is truthful that he had four days to respond and appearing in front of the grand jury, well, that made it look like we would see an indictment even as early as last week, which we know didn't happen. but pushing back against that fast timeline is this notion that the special counsel is still talking with witnesses, still engaging in interviews, so, willie, i think the answer is that while we could see an indictment any day, it is possible that there can be a strategy it indict trump alone and to continue to work on the rest of the case. that seems a little bit far fetched to me. this is a case where you won't play everything by the books, you want to treat this indictment like you would any other case, prepare it against any and all of the defendants you're looking at. we're told there is a conspiracy

charge, that means that trump would not be a stand alone defendant. he would need to have some co-defendants. it looks like doj is tying up the last few things they need in terms of details and that they will indict at some point in the next couple of weeks, perhaps as early as this week. i think a little bit more likely a couple of weeks out. >> joyce, obviously we have no sense of the complete fold that jack smith has put together and his people have put together. but basically from what we have read, what we know from reporting thus far, would you be comfortable in trying to prove intent to deceive the federal government and the people of the united states of america on the fact that he claims that he won the election? would you be comfortable in going forward and trying to prove intent right now? >> based on the publicly known evidence, doj, special counsel's office will have a strong folder

of evidence that will help them establish to a jury that trump knew he lost the election. if he didn't actually know it, it is only because he was willfully blind to that fact and there is a legal doctrine, willful blindness, that says you can't stick your head in the sand and be an ostrich once something becomes obvious. we learned this morning that rich donoghue, the former deputy attorney general, that he has now sat down with the special counsel's office and his testimony is chilling. he takes notes of these late december calls and then an in person meeting with trump, where they tell trump, the acting attorney general jeff rosen says i'm not going to snap my fingers. doj can't change the outcome of the election. the election that you lost. and then the former president says, according to donoghue's notes, no, no, you don't need to go that far, just announce there is an investigation into fraud and i'll take it from there.

that exchange alone is chilling evidence in that regard, mike. >> so, one of the january 6 rioters, one who carried out the most appalling attacks, the most appalling moments of that terrible day, is now going to jail. he beat a police officer with a flagpole, while the officer was being dragged down the capitol steps. the man will serve more than four years in federal prison. his name is petr stager, he claims he thought the officer was a member of antifa, that didn't hold up in court. they quote his chilling motivation and the brutality of the assault that you're watching here, beating a police officer with an american flag. but a judge lowered the sentence a bit citing stager's horrible upbringing, more than 1,000 people have been charged so far in connection to the january 6th attack. more than 300 have been sentenced to serve time in prison. and elise, we'll say it again, joe would say it if he was here, there are consequences to this.

donald trump thought he could send these people out, he could ask them for money, he could call them heroes, create a chorus, a choir of january 6th rioters who are now in jail, but there are a lot in jail because of what not just donald trump, but what a lot of people told them was true and the actions they carried out that day because of it. >> and that's a pretty easy case, cut and dry, right and wrong, beating a policeman with a pole, you're going to end up with some prison time. that's not exactly a case you look at and say, oh, that's political persecution there. joyce, i want to ask you, what is it going to take when it comes to what the crimes are against donald trump for any of those allegations to actually stick? conspiratorial charges, charges of directing violence, of inciting violence, just doesn't play the same way when it comes to the political optics of the

courtroom and american public sentiment. >> that's right, elise. and i think we'll see that reflected in the charging decisions that jack smith will make. he will not stretch the evidence further than it goes when it is presented to a jury. i think we'll see a focus on a conspiracy to interfere with the functioning of government. interfere with the certification of the electoral college, but perhaps to interfere with the transfer of power. that's the sort of intimation we get from what we have learned about this target letter, that it will focus on the conspiracies with the lawyers, trying to convince trump after he's been told you lost the election, after judges, including judges that he put on the bench have ruled against him in court over and over and over, and the narrative seems to be that he becomes more desperate, he loses in court, he latches on

to this scheme to create fake electors in seven different states and to use those fake slates of electors to change the outcome of the vote there. when that looks like it is designed to fail, he becomes focused on not interrupting the riot that is going on in the capitol, sitting there for a couple of hours while violence is ongoing, as people tell him that he can stop it, and he refuses to do that. and why jack smith might ask a jury would the former president refuse to stop the violence? well, you can infer from that that he intended it to continue to its logical outcome, he still wanted to interfere with governmental processes. and at the end of the day, it is that sort of dry sounding crime that prosecutors will take to the jury. but the facts are not dry. we all watched them unfold in front of us. >> that's the thing.

there is video of all of it. we'll wait together. former u.s. attorney joyce vance. joyce, thanks so much. jonathan, back to the man who attacked the police officer on the capitol steps, just over four years in prison, one of the reasons he got prison time was because of his motive and he -- we should be specific about what he said, he was captured on video saying, quote, every single one of those capitol law enforcement officers, death is the remedy. that is the only remedy they get. that man talking about police officers defending the capitol against an attack. there is a pattern here, john, we're seeing. you can pick up the newspaper almost any place you live, this man was from arkansas, you can read it here in new york, all over the country, somebody went to the capitol, based on something they heard from donald trump, based on something they heard from the news they watch or the websites they read, carry out a crime, and when they realize this is a crime, and we're not here on some holy

mission, they're going to jail. and he had that moment apparently if you read the court records, he called his wife and said i've done something terrible, i'm going to turn myself in when i get back home to arkansas, but the crime is a crime. doesn't matter if you feel bad about it. they're responsible for their actions that day, but driven there by the lie you wrote about in your book. >> death is the remedy. that's a hard thing to hear. yes, that is right, willie. it was a lie that was months and frankly years in the making. donald trump, from his candidacy in 2016, started planting the seeds of the idea that an election could be rigged if he were to lose, he could only lose if it was fixed against him. and he took his time in office where he mainstreamed conspiracy theories, big lies, small lies, on matters that, you know, of little significance to some of the most important tenets of our democracy. nothing was out of bounds for his lies and he focused in on, of course, this election and

conditioned his supporters, encouraged his supporters to not trust their own eyes, to not trust the government, to only trust his conspiracy theories and to commit violence in his name, eugene robinson. we have been asking for months now as we saw rioters, protesters start to be tried and convicted and sentenced, when would the person who sent them there be held accountable and now seems like we're on the eve of that happening. >> it seems like it. and it has to happen. you can't punish -- try and punish all the foot soldiers, all the people who carried out the violence and not work your way up the chain and especially not investigate and if appropriate indict the person who inspired it all, the person who riled them up and sent them off to the capitol, to disrupt

the certification of a free and fair presidential election that that person lost. and that was donald trump. you know, what's really fascinating, that man just sentenced who believed that the only remedy, remedy for the capitol police officers was death, it will be fascinating, years from now, when historians look back and i wonder if -- what was the precondition in american society? what was the sickness that donald trump was able to exploit? he didn't -- he couldn't have started all this from scratch. there was something there that was waiting to be triggered by a completely unscrupulous political figure, like donald trump, and he did it, he continues to do it. he continues to have these adherence. and you just wonder what -- what

was the rot, sort of, at the heart of the society that allowed this to happen. >> coming up, the latest on the growing unrest in israel after the country's parliament passed a law limiting the power of its supreme court. we'll have a live report from tel aviv next on "morning joe." tel aviv next on "morning joe. - did you see my tail when that chewy box showed up? - oh, i saw it. - sorry about the vase. - can we just say vase like normal people? - fine. - i always wondered what it would be like to have a tail. - maybe you did one time. and maybe a thousand years from now, i'll be tail-less using that chewy app to get you great prices on treats. - i'm pretty sure it takes more than a thousand years- - vase. - pets aren't just pets. they're more. - vase! - [announcer] save more on what they love with everyday great prices at chewy. (air whooshing) (box thudding) i'm saving with liberty mutual, mom. they customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. you could save $700 dollars just by switching. ooooh, let me put a reminder on my phone. on the top of the pile! oh. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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israel's parliament passed a measure that limits the power of the country's judiciary system. "the new york times" describing it as one that will strip israel's supreme court of the power to overturn government actions and appointments it deems unreasonable. yesterday's vote capped a months long process that drew thousands of protesters to the streets and sparked intense debate within the israeli parliament. the measure passed by a vote of 64-0 after all of the opposition members walked out of the knesset. joining us now live from tel aviv, nbc news foreign correspondent raf sanchez. what does it look like there

today? >> reporter: well, willie, israelis woke up this morning to a divided nation. a nation potentially more divided than at any other point in its 75-year history. this is what all the major israeli newspaper front pages look like today. all black, and it says on the bottom in hebrew, a dark day for democracy. and that is the feeling among the protesters today. a lot of people very, very worried about the future of this country, one woman we spoke to yesterday who was protesting outside of parliament had tears in her eyes and said she did not know what she was going to tell her children about israel's future. a lot of concern for palestinians living in the occupied west bank for the rights of women, for the lgbtq community and the secular half of israel, to give you a sense of what they're worried about, just hours after that bill went through, weakening the supreme court's ability to be a check on the government, one of netanyahu's religious allies

introduced a bill that would put religious studies, studying the torah, on pause with national military service. it is not clear if that bill will make it into law or not, but that is the kind of thing that secular israelis are worried about in terms of where their country is headed. there is, of course, another side to this, willie, netanyahu would tell you that this was a necessary reform to curb the power of unelected judges, who for too long had been standing in the way of the policy preferences of what does appear to be a growing right wing majority of israelis in this country. the prime minister addressing the nation last night on primetime calling for unity, saying that what he did was restoring democracy, not setting it back. in terms of where we go from here, you saw very extreme protests continuing overnight, all over the country. major highways blocked, police using water cannon against

demonstrators. today, the doctors are on strike. it is almost impossible to get nonemergency doctors' appointments today in israel because the doctors' union is on strike in protest of this bill going through. and we are kind of entering unchartered constitutional waters here. the israeli bar association has this morning filed a petition in front of the supreme court asking the judges to strike down this law to weaken the supreme court. now, if the judges do so, we really don't know what comes next. neither constitutional scholars, nor netanyahu, nor the protesters on the streets can tell you what happens after that. one of the other big questions here is what impact this is having on an institution that is supposed to be above politics and that is the israeli military, thousands of israeli military reservists have said they will stop showing up for duty because of this. and, willie, that is having an especially severe impact on the

air force where many of the most experienced pilots are reservists, rather than active duty. >> an extraordinary moment in israeli history, and, raf, as people watching this may wonder why people are so upset in the streets and why this is such an extraordinary moment in history, can you explain the system a little bit, which is here we have two chambers of congress, here we have a written constitution, you don't have that in israel, so the supreme court was the check on the prime minister, was in fact the check on the majority in that country, and with this new legislation that goes away. >> reporter: yeah, willie, that's exactly right. in terms of the separation of powers, you basically in israel have the executive and the legislative essentially fused, right? the executive is the government, the government has a majority in the israeli parliament, the knesset, which only has one chamber. if you have a 61-seat majority, in parliament, which netanyahu

does, there is pretty much nothing inside of the legislature that can stop you from moving ahead with laws that you want, which leaves basically only the supreme court as a check now. the law that went through yesterday ma means that the supe court can no longer rule government actions unreasonable. netanyahu would say unreasonable is an overly vague standard, but i'll give you one example of how it has been used. in the last year, the judge said it was unreasonable when netanyahu tried to appoint a man with multiple convictions for tax fraud to a senior cabinet position. going forward, it seems like moves like that by the government will be able to happen because the supreme court no longer has that standard of unreasonableness to work on. it is unclear what happens with the rest of netanyahu's proposed judicial overhaul, one of the other third rail elements is he's proposing to give the government more control over the

committee, which actually appoints judges to the supreme court. willie? >> and raf sanchez live from tel aviv. we'll be checking in with you throughout the week. thank you so much, we appreciate it. this is front page news on newspapers across the country this morning, the new york times and "the wall street journal" all have it on the front page. an extraordinary moment really in israeli history. >> it is huge. and the fact that this was definitely something that the biden administration and many governments allied with israel did not want. it is a move away from a secular democracy and toward a religious autocracy. and president biden has been careful not to link our aid to israel to their actions, but it does make you wonder if the $3.3 billion or so we're giving to israel this year -- >> 4. >> 4, exactly, if that needs to be leveraged on strong support of democracy within the country. >> coming up, house speaker kevin mccarthy now floating the

idea of an impeachment inquiry against president biden. we'll show you those new remarks and what they say about the state of the republican party. "morning joe" is coming right back. epublican party. "morning joe" is coming right back

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we don't get scared. oh, really? mom can see your search history. that's what i thought. introducing the next generation 10g network. only from xfinity. house speaker kevin mccarthy is raising the possibility of an impeachment inquiry against president biden. he made the remarks during an interview on fox news last night, while weighing in on the republican-led investigations into the biden family's business dealings. >> when president biden was running for office, he told the american public that he's never talked about business, he said his family has never received a dollar from china, which we now prove is not true.

we only have followed where the information has taken us, but this is rising to the level of impeachment inquiry, which provides congress the strongest power to get the rest of the knowledge and information needed. because this president has also used something we have not seen since richard nixon, used the weaponization of government to benefit his family and deny congress the ability to have the oversight. i believe we will follow this all the way to the end and this is going to rise to an impeachment inquiry, the way the constitution tells us to do this, and we have to get the answers to these questions. >> the white house spokesman for oversight and investigations ian sams responded writing, quote, instead of focusing on the real issues americans want us to address address, like lowering inflation or creating jobs, this is what the house gop wants to prioritize, their eagerness to go after the prsident

regardless of the truth is bottomless. other than that one phone call, private phone carle on january 6th, 2021, we have not heard that level of outrage about donald trump attempting to lead a coup against the united states government around the 2020 election, taking classified information about nuclear secrets, and war plans back to mar-a-lago, he's held that for president biden and his son. >> yeah, and let's fact check him off the top. they haven't proven that there was any wrong doing here despite what he said last night. and the house gop is kicking up whistle-blower after whistle-blower alleging wrongdoing, but have yet to create any concrete evidence. there is a guy who is under indictment, federal indictment because of his wrongdoings in this matter.

they had a couple members of the irs come up last week and testified they felt like this should have been a matter should have been prosecuted further about hunter biden and then under oath they also acknowledged that, well, actually it is common for it not to happen. so eugene robinson, people i talked to say that the house is hell bent on some sort of impeachment. they think merrick garland may be a more likely candidate than president biden. but they're not ruling out the president. if they do go there for impeachment inquiry for president biden, i ask you, like, where are we heading now? are we at the moment where impeachment, which was supposed to be rare, and almost sacred, is just being tossed around like another political ploy? is every president going forward going to face some sort of impeachment inquiry? >> short answer, looks like, yes. it looks like this is kind of the default position and this --

much of this republican party in the house at least seems to believe or want to make people think they believe that the impeachments of president trump were illegal, were only political, and so they have a -- they believe they have a constituency that wants to see them strike back, in the same way at joe biden and i think kevin mccarthy is responding to that constituency. and so we may be in that situation that you described, we may be in a situation where impeachment just becomes kind of a phase of a presidency. >> you know, elise, there is a comic aspect to watching kevin mccarthy speak like that. there is a political aspect. there is also a tragic aspect to

it in the sense that are we watching a democracy collapse in full public view, in plain view with these people, like kevin mccarthy, talking about impeaching joe biden rather than don't look over there, don't look at donald trump, and if any of them were asked, could you tell us how you feel about peter stager, they wouldn't know what i was talking about. they wouldn't know the origin of that question. who we just mentioned earlier in the news, sentenced to four years for beating a police officer at the request, basically there, in the capitol, of donald j. trump, they wouldn't know him. they don't care about him. and they don't care about the country, i would submit. >> i think there also would be confusion over what exactly will biden be impeached over this go-round, his son's shady business dealings. how is that connected to his presidency? you can say it is untoward, you

can say it really looks terrible, you can say it wreaks of corruption, but if the president is not connected, how do you go forward with an impeachment? and the -- i guess they're alleging the irs didn't go hard enough at the president's son. that just doesn't seem to rise to the level when think of how many 1%ers get away with so much every year from the irs, and only furthers the argument we need more agents and we should actually get taxes from people who should be paying taxes. >> coming up, we'll be joined by democratic senator and armed services committee member tammy duckworth. she's calling for continued military support for ukraine amid russia's ongoing assault. "morning joe" is coming back. on. "morning joe" is coming back when migraine strikes, you're faced with a choice. ride it out with the tradeoffs of treating?

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moscow. russia also struck a ukrainian port, destroying a grain hangar in the process. joining us in the studio, mikhail sighau who fled the country rather than risking imprisonment. he's out with a new book titled "war and punishment: putin, zelenskyy." for some people, they think it goes back to 2014 or pick your date. you say you have go back to 1996

it begin the story. >> yeah. i go back to i'd say the three centuries ago. >> that too. >> yeah, yeah, because this -- this war war is -- putin is try to justify this war. russia is poisoned with historical myths. i think that my mission was to debunk all those historical myths created by russian problem propaganda. most russian historians were propagandists for all those years. and historians in the west sometimes followed that. we need to start writing some truthful historical narrative, not imperialist. >> what is the big myth at the

center of this invasion? >> russians and ukrainians are the same people. putin believes ukrainian is like wrong russian. another ridiculous myth that putin keeps on repeating is ukraine was invented by lenin. it's really funny. he thinks there was no ukraine before bolshevik revolution of 1917. they are different myths they are deeply rooted in today's political situation. a lot of speculations, for example, in russia. there is the concept of ukrainian betrayal. the continuing story that ukrainians were betraying russians for so many years, putin believes in that.

>> so three years ago, four years ago if you had asked someone as knowledge as you are about russian politics, if you asked them who does putin talk to, you might have come up with lavrov, a couple of other people. but today, how isolated is vladimir putin? who does he talk to? and how has his isolation affected his conduct of the war in ukraine? >> that's a very good question. he has become very isolated since covid. probably the closest person to him is the only russian oligarch, his old-time friend. they too spent together the lockdown of 2020. his father was a well-known

soviet historian. he was specializing in the history of crimea and sebastopol. he's the first who owns the presidential administration. >> prigozhin attempted to make a run on putin, but nothing really happened to him in the aftermath. i speculated earlier off camera, is he dead? you said he seems to probably be alive still, which it's amazing that he still lives. how weakened is putin by that incident? and is the war at a point, given all the weapons that have come to the ukrainians in recent months from the allies, is this their best shot to actually have as much of a win as possible and get to a reasonable space to

negotiate? >> it's tricky. yes, he is weakened. yes, within the russian elite it was exposed that the emperor is naked. he used to be considered as a guarantor of stability and now he cannot control his inner circle. at the same time, is he losing the war? i know that he's pretty much confident about that. he thinks that the time is on his side, and he should wait for the american presidential election. that's obviously his strategy. he wants to appeal to american conservatives. probably you've heard that yesterday he signed the outrageous law that bans any gender changes in russia. he outlawed all transgender people. that's not the kind of issue russian people are worried about. he tries to speak to american

conservatives. that's obviously the idea that came up for american consumption, not for russians. he's expecting donald trump to be back in the white house. according to putin's calculations, next year all international support for ukraine should stop because of donald trump. coming up, a january 6th rioter who repeatedly struck a police officer with a flag pole during the capitol attack gets prison time. during the capitol attack gets prison time. i was told my small business wouldn't qualify for an erc tax refund. you should get a second opinion from innovation refunds at no upfront cost. sometimes you need a second opinion. [coughs]

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learn how abbvie could help you save. qulipta®. the forget-you-get migraine medicine™. . let's take a lot at another one of your notes. you also noted that mr. rosen said to mr. trump, quote, doj can't and won't snap its fingers and change the outcome of the election. how did the president respond to that, sir? >> he responded very quickly and said, essentially, that's not

what i'm asking you to do. i'm asking you to say it was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the republican congressmen. >> that is richard donoghue testifying before the house january 6th committee. he says he has been interviewed by special counsel jack smith's office, but has not been called to testify before the grand jury investigating the 2020 election and january 6th. that comes as the grand jury could soon vote on a second federal indictment for donald trump and his third overall. more on that in just a moment. meanwhile, trump's top challenger so far in the 2024 race not gaining in the polls despite a substantial spending spree. we'll dig into new reporting on the desantis campaign. we also have with us this morning senator tammy duckworth of illinois, the combat veteran calling on mitch mcconnell to do something about a months long

blockade of military promotions by senator tommy tuberville. the grand jury convened by special counsel jack smith will meet today in washington to continue its work on the probe into donald trump's efforts to overturn the legitimate results of the 2020 election. the jury could vote today on whether to indict the former president. the panel also meets on thursday. the vote could come then as well. meanwhile, a january 6th rioter who beat a police officer with a flagpole while the officer was being dragged down the capitol steps now will serve more than four years in a federal prison. peter staeger was sentenced yesterday. he claimed he thought the officer was a member of antifa, for some reason. prosecutors asked he get six years in prison, citing his chilling motivation and the brutality of that assault we have all seen.

the judge did lower the sentence a bit citing staeger's, quote, horrible upbringing. more than 1,000 people have been charged in connection to the january 6th attack on the capital. more than 600 have been sentenced to serve time in prison. joining us is ryan reilly. let's start with the january 6th rioter sentenced to more than four years in prison yesterday. he is the man from arkansas who attacked a capitol police officer with the american flag, with the flagpole, beating him repeatedly. what more do we know here? >> reporter: it was interesting, because yesterday in court he was trying to explain why he thought perhaps this person was antifa. he said, i was so concerned with the shoes. apparently the shoes were suspicious. the problem was after this he made some really inflammatory comments about police officers, basically saying they deserved

death for protecting the capitol that day. it wasn't something that necessarily aligned with the facts. nonetheless, he was given a little bit less time than prosecutors were ultimately seeking. they wanted more than six years. he ultimately got over four. because he's been incarcerated for the past two-plus years, he'll end up doing about two more years before he's released. it's another reminder as we are on this indictment watch, that all these cases continue to roll in. just last week alone, there were 19 separate cases unsealed against january 6th rioters. online sleuths or sedition hunters have identified hundreds of additional rioters who have not yet been arrested. there's a long way to go here even though we're at the halfway mark on this investigation, because they have a five-year trajectory to bring forth these cases. that's the statute of

limitations for most of these crimes. you can expect them to continue rolling in until early 2026. >> here's the quote you reference from mr. staeger, the man who beat the cop with the flagpole. he said, quote, every single one of those capitol law enforcement officers, death is the remedy. that is the only remedy they get. now he will serve nearly 4 1/2 years in prison for what he did that day. you mentioned it, ryan. you've been covering these cases so closely and helping all of us to keep track of them. you've had a thousand or so people arrested, 300 serving prison time for what they did that day. justice may be slow, but it is coming for the people as law enforcement sifts through the faces on that video and they continue to be identified. >> reporter: that's right. the sleuths are basically helping hold the fbi's feet to the fire on a lot of these.

one of feedbacks i get when one of these days comes in is finally. you have some dissents from within the fbi about bringing forth some of these cases. you've seen these whistleblowers say they don't think these cases should have been brought forward, some of them buying into sort of ludicrous conspiracy theories about what happened that day. it's a really difficult problem for doj to handle especially when talking about the numbers and some of the technological needs they have here. government isn't necessarily always the most technologically inclined of our institutions. i think that's really shown up here. frankly, online sleuths have been far ahead of them in a lot of these cases in identifying a lot of the rioters that day.

>> we are indeed on trump indictment watch. we know the grand jury meets tuesdays and thursdays. we don't know that it's coming this week, but there's some speculation that it may. what's the very latest from what you're hearing from your sources? >> reporter: there's certainly a lot of commotion today. it's based on a number of things. mostly, remember, reporters are finding out information on this from witnesses or the lawyers of witnesses who testify before the grand jury, because the justice department and federal prosecutors are legally barred from talking about those proceedings. there's a rule that means they cannot speak of them, but that rule does not apply to defense attorneys and witnesses, so they're free to tell us what exactly they talked about. that's where we got the indication from mr. donahue, although he was not before the grand jury specifically, but he

did talk to prosecutors. they're able to talk about that. what we know about this is shaped from the information we're getting from that side. just given the number of witnesses we've seen testify before the grand jury and specifically what we saw last week on thursday when we saw an aide to the former president, william russell, testify before the grand jury and raise questions of executive privilege, especially noting this is the third time he's coming to speak to the grand jury. we're really getting to a pivot point, is what that suggests. we're really getting to a spot in this where the grand jury is going to be making a decision very shortly. we know based on a lot of the work our producers have done watching the elevators and seeing who goes up to the third floor that this grand jury is meeting on tuesdays and thursdays. i would not expect wednesday to be a day that the grand jury was

meeting unless there is some sort of special proceeding or some reason that happens. i think today and thursday are the real days to sort of circle on the calendar here. >> ryan, just the other day someone suspected of being a participant in the january 6th riots was arrested and charged up in maine or new hampshire, one or the other. it begs the question of how many other potential people are under investigation for participating in that riot, and is this investigation going to continue and continue and continue until everyone who participated in it is arrested? >> reporter: you know, if they keep going at the current pace, i don't think they're ever going to get to everyone who participated. online sleuths have counted more than 3,000 people who could face charges. most of those are individuals who entered the capitol charge which triggered a charge, typically misdemeanors. and others who assaulted law

enforcement officers or committed some kind of crime outside the building that would be chargeable. even if you were to keep up the pace which seems to be heightened a little bit last week where we got a number of these cases unsealed, it would be difficult to get to all of them. there could be about another thousand cases coing down the pipeline, which could get us to the 2,000 number, meaning two-thirds of the individuals have been charged. about a thousand have been identified who have not been arrested. the identifications have slowed down somewhat. they're still coming in, but there's been all sorts of really interesting ways online sleuths have found these individuals. one of my favorite stories was someone who was covered head to toe. he looked at his phone and on

his phone was the background of the llc of the company that he ran, and they were able to identify him that way. that individual hasn't been arrested yet. that's someone you can expect to come down the pipeline. he might have thought he was all good because he was really covered up that day, no facial recognition match is going to get him, but all it took was one video from the side and him opening his phone and there it was, the name of his company that led to his identity. >> justice reporter ryan reilly who followed all of these cases so closely and now watching to see if the former president of the united states will be indicted again on federal charges. ryan, thank you so much. a group of democratic senators on the armed services committee is urging mitch mcconnell to act to end republican senator tommy tuberville's blockade of

military promotions over the reimbursement policy that will pay service members or their family members back for travel costs if they need to leave the state for abortion services. quote, as the leader of the republican conference, we count on you to hold your colleagues accountable when they recklessly cross boundaries. it falls to you to act now for the safety and security of our nation. we urge you to exercise your leadership to prevail on tuberville to end his reckless hold. joining us now, one of the senators who signed the letter to mcconnell, democratic senator tammy duckworth of illinois, a veteran of war herself. thank you so much for being here. what is your assessment of the damage done, if there is some, in your view, by this long blockade of preventing promotions, including to the

commandant of the united states marine corps. >> for the first time in over 100 years we do not have a commandant of the marine corps. this has really devastated our national security. we have all sorts of officers who cannot move into their new positions. at the recent nato summit, the incoming general could not go to the nato meetings because she had not been confirmed. the number of officers waiting to be confirmed is only going to grow. we're at over 250 officers and it could be as high as 600 to 800 by next year. >> what do you think are the odds that snosh schumer is going to go through individually with

each of these candidates and have a confirmation process one by one, which would be very time consuming but it would get the job done? do you think there's a chance if he approached it that way that senator tuberville would face pressure from colleagues who didn't want to be stuck in the senate in august and he would move a little bit? >> senator tuberville has not listened to any of his colleagues, even on the republican side. he's been given several off ramps. he's been offered the ability to vote on his version of repealing it. he said no. this policy is absolutely legal to reimburse costs if someone has to leave the state to get health care. there's so many more officers waiting to be promoted that we

would be a case of one step forward, two steps back. we're waiting to do faa reauthorization. the defense budget has to be passed. we couldn't work on that. the farm bill could not be worked on. so what senator tuberville is doing and basically grinding the senate to a halt and we could not get any work done. he's doing it at the expense of our national security. >> i'm curious what you make of senator mcconnell's response to all of this. he has said publicly i disagree with what tommy tuberville is doing, but these are the rules of the senate. yesterday in response to your letter, senator mcconnell saying, democrats, you're in charge of the senate, you've got the majority, why don't you do something? how do you respond? >> this is senator mcconnell's game right now, because he wants to grind the senate to a halt

because he doesn't want president biden to be successful. it's in his best interest to make sure nothing happens, and this just plays into that. it's really sad, because this is putting the well-being of our troops and military families in jeopardy. it is putting our national security in jeopardy. it's also grinding efforts to get anything else done in jeopardy as well. our farmers are facing a drought in illinois and across the midwest. we need to make sure we pass crop insurance legislation. there's money in here for military hunger. there is all sorts of good work being done. just to bring partisan politics into this at a time when there's a war going on in ukraine is really, i think, foolhardy. >> you coauthored a piece in the "new york times" about sustaining ukraine in its fight

against russia. you've served on the front lines. you're a double amputee. you're a recipient of the purple heart. why do you believe ongoing support, which has been questioned by some republicans now, why do you think it's so important? >> it's so important because ukraine is the bulwark between russia and our nato allies. the next country in line is poland. the illinois national guard has been training the polish military for over 35 years. we have u.s. troops in poland right now. if ukraine were to fall and russia begins to threaten with these expansionist polls, we would have to respond to article 5 of the treaty, which means american troops would be in battle to help defend nato. frankly, that is not something i want to see happen. in addition, the ukrainian

people are fighting for their own independence. they've shown with heart and spirit and grit and determination that they're not going to give into this authoritarian regime and putin's foolhardy war. if they're going to stand and fight, we should stand with them. >> standing with the ukrainians, today in ukraine the skies are quiet. odesa is being pounded along with much of ukraine has been destroyed by russia. where are the f-16s? >> well, the ukrainian pilots still need to be trained. this is part of what we've done all along, which is, providing the armament and equipment and training as they need it. i asked for f-16s early on. i supported that. i supported sending the abrams tanks as well, but at the appropriate time. this is also why i supported

president biden's use of cluster munitions after russia has been bombarding ukraine with cluster munitions of their own all this time. we're going to get those f-16s there. they're going to come from allied nations. we're in the process of training ukrainian pilots right now. >> jonathan lemire? >> senator, beyond those f-16s there is a lot of talk about cluster munitions that ukraine has begun to issue. we discussed how russia is playing the waiting game, believing u.s. support will eventually dry up. even if the administration is not willing to push the f-16s over the finish line just yet, what else could be done to bolster this counteroffensive as it tries to make up real ground? >> war is hard. war is tough. the ukrainians are fighting and

they're gaining inch by inch, mile by mile. if people want a hollywood version of war, then they don't understand what war truly is. the ukrainians are fighting. they are gaining the advantage. they are pushing the front forward, pushing the russians back. we need to continue to provide them with the basics they need. they need ammunition for their artillery pieces. that is probably the most effective piece right now. we need to continue to provide them with the logistical support, the spare parts, the equipment and the training for the f-16s. if you study the history of war in this area, it's always been a grinding ground battle, and that is what they're engaged in right now. if people expect a hollywood ending of somebody cresting a hill with an abrams tank and taking over, that's not going to

happen. the way this victory is going to be done is going to be through attrition one step at a time, which is why we cannot abandon them. you saw the determination of not just the united states but also our nato allies who came together at the summit recently to reenforce their support and they will continue to provide whatever equipment they can to the ukrainian forces. >> another big package from the biden white house went out just last week where president biden will establish a national monument in honor of emmitt till and his mother. it's an effort to tell till's story and the activism of his mother mamie.

>> it's a good day to commemorate a tragedy. really the church being designated as a national monument is really important to the civil rights moment. while some on the right try to whitewash history, i'm really proud that president biden is taking action to help make sure that generations of americans have more opportunity to learn about and reflect on mamie and emmett's stories. for so many of us, emmett's funeral in this church in chicago defines a part of our history. mamie's brave choice to open her son's casket shifted the nation and the world and allowed us to have the civil rights movement be successful. i'm really proud that president biden is doing this.

>> it will be a very moving moment when the president is introduced by the reverend who is emmett till's best friend and a witness to his abduction. thank you. coming up next on "morning joe," as donald trump remains the strong frontrunner in the race for the republican nomination, our next guest has a, quote, altar call for evangelical america, which is still backing the former president in his bid for a second term. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ask about vraylar. because you are greater than your bipolar 1, and you can help take control of your symptoms - with vraylar. some medicines only treat the lows or highs. vraylar treats depressive, acute manic, and mixed episodes of bipolar 1 in adults. proven, full-spectrum relief

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news just in to us, florida governor ron desantis was involved in a car crash this morning in chattanooga, tennessee. we're told desantis and his team were uninjured.

we'll continue to follow this story. we're happy to hear governor desantis was uninjured. meanwhile his campaign is under increasing pressure from donors and allies. the governor and his wife casey are unhappy about the campaign's cash burn. they raised about $20 million in the second quarter but had only about $12 million on hand compared to donald trump's $22.5 million. joining us now, white house and politics team leader for bloomberg mario parker. where's all the money going? >> private planes, jets, right? kind of what my people in the south call high faluten a little bit. it gets to desantis' troubles and his awkwardness being around people. it's not surprising that you would see him flying around in

private jets and eshewing private airlines. >> is he burning cash faster than he should be at this point? >> absolutely. we've got reporting that his campaign manager, who is under fire for this very reason, essentially admitted that to donors this past weekend in park city, utah, saying it's unsustainable. they're not bringing in enough money in order to carry a bloated staff of 90 aides at this point as well as some of those events they're holding and the travel. >> a lot of big donors are looking at his performance these first several months and going, maybe he's not the guy we thought he was. >> these big donors, if they've given once and maxed out, they're useless. 15% of desantis' cash raise has

been small donors. that's a scary figure when he has a burn rate of 1.5 million a week. that puts him on pace to need 40 million to make it to the iowa caucuses. republican operatives i've been talking to have been buzzing about this sec report. they said, yes, people have honed in on some of the bad things, but you raise the hood up off that and it's really bad, criticism of the staff, the private planes and just some unexplained spending that looks questionable when it comes to consultant pay. >> mario, does the campaign have a plan to turn this around? they need small donors to go back to time and again. >> that's what you're seeing with desantis now. now he's off the campaign trail somewhat. he'll be in iowa starting today, but what he's also doing is

campaigning with these donors saying, i understand, we've got to course correct here. we saw his campaign elevated the digital director to deputy manager. he's been facing calls to fire the long time aide. we're hearing a leaner, meaner operation going forward, a reboot, but that remains to be seen. >> for a campaign like this looking for an inflection point to change momentum, one could be the first republican debate. it does seem like most of the gop field will qualify to be there. we know governor desantis will be. donald trump might not. that would deprive the governor of a chance to take it to him. another thing is we may get another trump indictment this week. how does desantis's team plan to

respond if and when donald trump faces charges for january 6th and efforts to overturn the 2020 election. >> you're seeing comments now that we haven't seen in recent weeks where the campaign is publicly musing about whether or not donald trump will stay in the race if he's indicted again. that's a pipe dream at this point, as you know. donald trump is likely to sit out this first debate, because he doesn't want to walk into a bar fight and be the target for everyone else to pounce on him. desantis is pushing all his chips to the middle of the table. this is where he absolutely has to make some type of moment, create a moment to woo new donors and get people back excited about his campaign. >> at this point in the campaign, which is early, setting issues and donors aside, what's your sense of what happens to a campaign when the

principal candidate, in this case governor desantis, in the retail point of the campaign has difficulty going through a crowd and talk to someone about what flavor ice cream they're eating? >> these moments are created in some of those small bar type of establishments, ice cream cones, shaking hands. instead, every time desantis has gone out on the trail, there's been viral videos of just how awkward he is in his interactions with people. >> let's see if he can turn that around. bloomberg's mario parker, thank you so much for bringing us this story. donald trump's hold on the republican party is in no small part due to his popularity with evangelical christians. while trump has spoken sometimes about his own faith, more often than not his actions and words do not line up with the church's

teachings. >> jesus christ inspires us to love one another. i could stand in the middle of fifth avenue and shoot company. scripture teaches us the lord is close to the broken hearted. you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them. i cherish women and i will be great on women's health issues. >> you can do anything. grab them by the [ bleep ]. >> two corinthians. that's the whole ball game. >> you can do anything, grab them by the [ bleep ] --

>> joining us is the author of the new book "losing our religion." it's so great to have you back on the show. you talk about this pre and post 2016 evangelical church after it came under the grip of donald trump. how do you explain it when we talk to evangelicals and they say, look, we're voting for a president, not a saint, we understand he's got ethical and moral and personal failings, but he's given us so much. he gave us three supreme court justices which helped us overturn roe v wade. how do you explain the move of evangelicals and their willingness to go along for the ride with donald trump? >> well, many evangelicals thought this close alliance would lead to greater influence on donald trump and his administration. i think the evidence shows it's been the other way around. trump and trumpism have changed

evangelicalism much more than evangelicalism has influenced trump or the trump movement. i think that generally has to do with the way that many people inside and outside the church are wondering if the religion is just a means to an end, to politics, to power or something else. i think the church is too important for that. >> russell, elise jordan here. as a fellow mississippian who was raised southern baptist, i too have been disturbed and horrified by some of the developments in donald trump's un-christian behavior fly because it means getting supreme court justices, how do good christians reconcile what

does? >> there are a lot of christians who think we have to be involved. they're right, we have to be involved and engaged. often they're thinking about issues that matter a great deal. what many people didn't count on was the sort of transactions that would have to take place. i mean, we're at point where we're talking about sexual abuse liability, sexual assault liability, insurrections and attacks on the united states' capitol. then you just add to it everything else that seems to be melting down in american life. i think we need a revival of genuine gospel-centered evangelical america. if we don't have that, that's bad for everybody, not just believers like me, but

unbelievers too. >> that's a pretty good summation of the state of the country that you just articulated. my question to you is, given the evangelical movement in this country, how is it they end up at the end of the day despite living through everything we've lived through and everything you just described, how is it -- and i can't find an answer within myself about this. maybe you can help me. how is it that they end up casting their lot with a bad man? >> well, that's the question in front of us right now for the entire country. part of it has to do with the way that we've lost a sense of meaning and politics has attempted to replace that sense of meaning. so i see a secularization happening not just in the outside culture, what we were always warned about, but a secularization of the church itself. just look at the evangelical

political event happening in iowa last week or the week before. it wasn't centered around issues of theology or even of traditional evangelical values. a lot of it was centered around supporting russia over ukraine. i mean, that's a very different emphasis. >> russell, how do we turn back to the way it was? as you wrote in the book, the church for a lot of us growing up is a place of community, belonging, hope politics. how do you get back to the essence of what the church always has been? >> well, i think we're in the middle of a crisis, and i do not think that's necessarily a bad thing. i think that what often happens is that out of crises something new is formed. i think you have a lot of evangelical christians right now who are feeling homeless,

feeling disoriented. many evangelicals say to me i don't feel like i belong anymore, i don't know what's happening around me. but at the same time, a lot of these people are finding each other and they're finding a new path. so i think we don't need to fight a battle for the soul of evangelicalism. what we need are for evangelicals to reconnect with the gospel and reconnect with the church. those small-scale sorts of movements, i think, can bring about something quite different from what we've seen. >> you're very much a dissident of sorts given how outspoken you were about what you see going wrong in the church. how has that affected your life and your career? >> well, i don't feel like a dissident at all, because i still hold to the same truths i've always held to, the authority of the bible, the

gospel of christ, the need for personal transformation and personal character. those are all things i have always believed. it's that we've had quite a shift in the emphasis of evangelicalism. i think looking at it now we can see that there were patterns in place all along that many of us did not recognize at the time leading to this place. and also a sense of a siege mentality that all of the ethics we've been taught can be suspended because there's a state of emergency. that's really, really dangerous sort of rhetoric. along with losing even the possibility that we can persuade our neighbors and love our neighbors and engage with them even when we disagree. i don't feel like a dissident in any of that. i think that's what i was taught in sunday school. so that's one of the reasons why this time is so disorienting to

so many people. >> the new book is titled "losing our religion." russell moore, thanks for being here this morning. >> thanks so much. still ahead, a new legal fight over states rights. the justice department is suing texas for not removing floating barriers in the river that separates the state from mexico. separates the state from mexico.

. back at 15 before the top of the hour. the department of justice is suing the state of texas after governor greg abbott refused to remove a thousand-foot buoy in the rio grande. priscilla thompson has the latest. >> reporter: this morning, the rio grande river separating the u.s. and mexico has become the latest flash point in the battle over border security.

the justice department now suing the state of texas, demanding the removal of this thousand-foot line of buoys designed to prevent migrants from crossing the river. the government alleges texas installed it without federal authorization. texas governor greg abbott responding overnight. >> texas is defending its sovereignty and its constitutional right to secure the border of our state and our country. >> reporter: this honduran couple told us they saw the buoys and went around them to cross the border, let through a fence on private property as the eight months pregnant woman was having trouble walking any further. the white house calls the barrier dangerous and unlawful, arguing abbott is trying to undercut the biden administration's security effort. >> the one person sowing chaos is governor abbott.

>> reporter: abbott writing in a letter to president biden, texas will see you in court, mr. president. this man owns a pecan orchard on the river and tells us migrant crossings are frequent. he says he supports some of abbott's security efforts, but calls the buoys inhumane and ineffective. >> it's not really hindering anybody from crossing. >> reporter: republican congressman tony gonzalez represents eagle pass. do you believe the buoys are actually working? >> it's going to maybe be a deterrent. there has to be more to prevent people from entering that water. people from entering that water. diabetes can serve up a lot of questions, like, "what is your glucose?" and "can you have more carbs?" before you decide... with the freestyle libre 2 system know your glucose level and where it's headed. no fingersticks needed.

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rachel bloom is known for her role as rebecca beverage on "crazy ex-girlfriend," the tv show she helped to create and which ran for four seasons, now beginning, september 6th in new york city, she will debut a one-woman musical she wrote, produced and stars in. it is titled "death, let me do my show." and rachel joins us now. so great to have you with us. we can't wait to hear about the show. want to talk to you about it. the elephant in the room, you're a member of the union, the broadway actors are not on strike, those shows continue, you're here to talk about that show. do you have a sense of how things are going? from the outside, things look so far apart. how soon will you and others get back to work on movie and tv sets? >> i wish i could tell you. i know the ball is in the court of the amtp. i am also a member of the wga, so i am on double strike right now. so i'm especially grateful, obviously, to have theater.

i don't think anyone knows. i think you'd have to know one of the heads of the studios, maybe, to know what's going on. >> well, we certainly hope it gets worked out and part of the reason you are in both of the unions is because you wear so many hats as writer, director, producer, star. let's talk about the new show on broadway "death let me do my show," love the title, first of all. how is the idea born and what will it look like when people go check it out in september? >> so, i've been working on this idea for almost two years. i went through kind of hell in 2020 as we all did, basically i gave birth at the start of the pandemic, my daughter was in the nicu and my writing partner passed away after that and even leading up to that trauma, being pregnant itself kind of gave me this existential crisis, almost as a foreshadowing to what was going to happen in 2020.

the show is about death, and once you become existentially aware that death is always around and it is always coming for you and how do you live your life? and that's the question that the show seeks to answer. >> so, rachel, in writing, you told "the independent" in an interview that writing for you is emotion. and i think that would hold for most writers. writing a newspaper column i used to try to figure out, you know, you can make people laugh, you can make people cry, but can you make people think? and then wondering what goes through your mind as you write in terms of pulling out that emotion and writing this particular play? >> i think all i can do is be honest about what i'm feeling and also try to say things that i feel have not been said or at least i haven't heard that are true to myself. that's kind of what generally

motivates me, is, okay, where is a gap that i can fill. it is almost like being on "shark tank" a little bit for every writer, what is a gap in the creative, i don't know, ether that i can kind of plug? and it is also cathartic for me because the more vulnerable i am, at least this is so far my experience, the more vulnerable and honest i am, the more people's reaction it is i feel that too. and it is very validating for me that i'm not alone in these thoughts and feelings. >> rachel, this is such an important topic because it is so universal, everyone unfortunately deals with loss and grief and your loss in particular was so sudden. and so unexpected. and psychiatrists have, you know, compared a sudden loss like that to incredible depression, deepest of dark depression, so you deal with

mental health also through this. and what have you learned about yourself going through this process? >> i've learned that there is a part of me that is incredibly optimistic and there is a part of me that goes very dark. and i guess my life-long journey is marrying the two, how do you acknowledge the darkness but stay optimistic? because sometimes i can only be in one space or the other. and i think a lot of us can be. because culturally, i don't know, especially in this country, we're not -- we don't talk about death. we don't talk about the existentialness of death, the fact that death is coming and i think what it does is it causes us to compartmentalize and the show is also very much about how we all went through a trauma in 2020 and are kind of continually going through it. and what do you do with that trauma. i'm fascinated with the fact that the spanish flu, i never really heard of much.

i heard of it, partially because my father works in healthcare, but i never really heard much about it, i didn't learn about it in school and it is because after the spanish flu, people just kind of wanted to forget about it and move on with their lives and also got overshadowed by world war i, but i think this idea of we try to instantly forget and it is terrible for us in the long run because then every new trauma is like a splash of ice water, it is shocking. >> and you certainly stand up there, alone, and confront all of that and mix in comedy and along the way. it already has been a hit in london, boston and chicago. and now you can see "death let me do my show" starting september 6th in new york city. rachel bloom, can't wait to see it. thank you for being here this morning. >> thank you for having me and for supporting live theater on the show. really, thank you. >> we'll be there. thank you, rachel. that does it for us this morning. we'll be right back here tomorrow morning. ana cabrera picks up the coverage after a quick final

break. a picks up the coverage after a quick final break. and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination.

right now on "ana cabrera reports," we're keeping our eyes on a federal courthouse in washington, d.c. where a grand jury is expected to convene today in the election interference case. so, could today be the day that donald trump is criminally indicted for the third time? plus, just in, florida governor ron desantis involved in a car crash. he is not injured. but we'll have the latest on what