>> when elawn comes in, he's going to have sophisticated data analysts. >> a genius like donald trump maybe? that does it for me. you can also catch me on the katie phang show weekend mornings 8:00 a.m. eastern right here on msnbc. but for now, "the reidout" with joy reid is up next. tonight on "the reidout" -- >> it has been quite a journey for me from the darkness to the light. when i sat with my family on the night of terror, when emmett till was taken from us, taken to be tortured and brutally murdered. back then in the darkness, i could never imagine a moment like this. >> the reverend wheeler parker jr. honoring his cousin, emmett till, alongside president biden and vice president kamala harris. on what would have been till's

82nd birthday. as the right wing continues to vandalize the history of black people in america. also tonight, trump plans for his next indictment by making threats of violence, with special counsel jack smith reportedly interested in trump's sudden change of heart about election security in 2020. plus, the remarkable smallness of the republican presidential field, defeating an indicted candidate who does nothing but lose shouldn't be this hard. and yet, they're failing. but we begin tonight with 2016 donald trump who ran for president back then as a man who amid calls to end police violence against black americans backed the blue 100%. >> i am the big, big believer and admirer of the people in law enforcement. okay. from day one. when you see these thugs being thrown into the back of a paddy wagon, you just see them thrown

in, rough, i said please don't be too nice. >> first term trump was also a big proponent of using federal law enforcement including the department of justice to prosecute personal grievances. >> she should be locked up. she should. and if i win, i am going to ask my attorney general to appoint a special prosecutor to look into her crimes. because what she did is a disgrace. >> want them to do their job. i will get involved and i'll get in there if i have to. >> our justice department, which i try and stay away from, but at some point i won't. >> i have an article 2 where i have a right to do whatever i want as president, but i don't even talk about that. >> flash forward to today and 2023 trump is now the poster child for the defund the police

movement. delegitimizing the department of justice, the fbi, and anyone who dares to question him. and frankly, when you're a man who has spent his entire life breaking the law and getting away with it, the looming threat of accountability must be terrifying. leaving you to wonder what a guy in that position might do to not lose control of the ultimate law enforcement power. he definitely got an answer to that on january 6th, 2021, after the american people finally punished trump for the failures of his first term and voted him out of office. what did trump do? when he got that first bitter taste of accountability? well, he watched tv and tweeted threats at his own vice president while a violent mob that he summoned ransacked the capitol, wounding hundreds of police officers in the process. hurling racist insults at the black officers, tasing and bear spraying officers, beating them with their own shields and busting through windows with american and trump flags while carting a noose to the capitol and chanting hang mike pence.

today, nbc news is reporting that richard donohue, who served as acting deputy attorney general near the end of the trump administration, has met with the special counsel's office. donohue is familiar to many of you because he testified before the house january 6th committee alongside former acting attorney general jeffrey rosen, and former assistant attorney general jeff engle about how they repeatedly rejected trump's claims of fraud in the election. >> it was clear to us there were a lot of people whispering in his ear, feeding him these conspiracy theories and allegations. i felt that being very blunt in that conversation might help make it clear to the president these allegations were simply not true. >> donohue, a lawyer, is an ideal source for jack smith because like any good attorney, he took contemporaneous notes during his phone calls and interactions with trump. at one point, he noted the acting attorney general told trump that the justice department can't and won't snap its fingers and change the

outcome of the election. here's his description of how trump responded. >> you also noted that mr. rosen said to mr. trump, quote, doj can't and won't snap its fingers and change the outcome of the election. how did the president respond to that, sir? >> he responded very quickly and said, essentially, that's not what i'm asking you do. what i'm asking you to do is say it was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the republican congressmen. >> and that is exactly what trump and his allies did and continue to do to this day. they want you to believe because he broke the law, you should finish the job and burn down democracy. peter navarro, one of the authors of the plan to steal the 2020 election, is taking the lunacy even further. blaming democrats for the state of the country. >> roughly half of republicans and over a third of democrats believe america is on the brink of civil war. such an unthinkable war breaks

out, it will be the democrats' fault. >> the endless instances where he, trump, and their allies repeatedly lied to the americans people about the election and tried to install donald trump as a coup backed president, which is why trump is facing possibly his third indictment. joining me is peter strzok, former fbi counterintelligence agent and olivia troye, cofounder of mission democracy and former homeland security and counterterrorism adviser to vice president mike pence. thank you both for being here. good to see you. peter, i want to start with you. this idea if donald trump is indicted for his actions and alleged crimes, there's going to be a civil war. a, i don't know if there's any evidence of that. but what do you make of the idea of his people calling for civil war? >> look, i think it's clear that peter navarro is nothing like other than a bully. he is entitled in his sort of contempt for the law. keep in mind, he's been indicted twice with two counts of

refusing to cooperate with congress. doj had to sue him to get records back for business he was doing on a personal email account while he worked in the white house. so the idea that he would sit and somehow say that trump, who has been indicted in florida, trump who has been indicted in new york, trump who presumably very soon is going to be indicted in georgia and potentially also in d.c., that somehow he should not be held accountable and if he is held accountable, this is the fault of democrats and also a reasonable cause for civil war, that's absurd. just absolutely ridiculous. >> and also no evidence of it. he was indicted in manhattan. there was no civil war. he was indicted in florida, arraigned in miami. again, the picture looked pretty peaceful. there were a few people with funny signs and hats, but there's no evidence he can do it again, necessarily, but how much should we worry that because he did do it on january 6th, 2021,

that he could somehow make that happen again? >> i think the issue is that people like peter navarro and others are still out there trying to radicalize americans. that's the point of this whole thing. i almost feel like it's projection. it's the willingness and wanting it to happen. that's the issue. they want to see this happen in the united states. they kind of thrive on it, and it backs their narrative. it's also a way to express intimidation toward americans and say, you know, given what's going on, the rule of law is prevailing right now, and we're in some serious trouble. but we want to push these narratives to create fear. fear in communities. speaking to the law and order narrative, that's what they did. that's what they did in the summer of 2020. they were pushing that sort of law and order, fear in suburban things that is classic trump and peter navarro. look, peter navarro, i just want to say, was considered a complete lunatic in the west wing of the white house. i had strict orders to keep him out of the vice president's office because he would write these conspiracy filled memos

that he wanted to deliver to vice president mike pence at the time. and i was specifically ordered by the vice president's chief of staff to take those memos out of his hand and make sure he never stepped foot in the office. that's the kind of individual we're dealing with. >> say more about that. the reality is he's helping to write the planning for how donald trump would stay in office. so you're saying the vice president wanted him completely kept out. >> yeah. >> how much influence did he have on the trump side? >> that's the issue. he would then take those memos and distribute them around the rest of the west wing, try to get in donald trump's ear. he did this like countless times. the staffers were aware of the type of lunacy he was doing. this is a man who also, i mean, tried to pick a fight with dr. hahn, a doctor in the west wing. thus was in the hallway where the vice president and chief of staff had to step in and separate. picture that and picture another trump presidency with peter navarro at the hetm and these types of individuals running

amuck and trying to run a country. >> the thing about it is, peter, as much as people maybe have gotten sobered up after seeing all of the grunts go to prien and also all the proud boys and oath keepers go to prison. they're taking a chance maybe he would be able to pardon them, not that he cares about these people, but there are people like peter navarro who are true believers. i wonder from a law enforcement point of view, how much concern we should have that maybe the masses, even 1 in 5 republicans agree donald trump should be -- should face the law for what he's done, and 60% of americans do. how concerned should law enforcement be there are enough peter navarro types who might be willing to do something? >> they have to be very concerned. look, one of the benefits of all of the january 6th prosecutions are they have served as a deterrent effect. that's part of the reason we didn't see violence in new york. that's part of the reason we didn't see violence in florida. but that doesn't eliminate the threat of somebody who is

perhaps -- doesn't have all their mentally faculties with them that becomes radicalized, not that they're acting as part of a big group, but one person or two people who decides to get weapons and explosives and attack law enforcement, attack a courthouse, that's something you can't eliminate. when you have people like peter navarro standing in front of some $2 constitution or declaration of independence behind him spewing this rhetoric, it's designed to fall on the ears who might be inclined to be radicalized and that something i'm certain people in the fbi, in dhs, state and local law enforcement are worried about every day because it's almost impossible to predict if and when somebody will hear that and decide, okay, i'm going to take matters into my own hands and pursue a path of violence. . it's so severe that kevin mccarthy feels like he has to pretend -- he has to keep feeding the base these sort of wild ideas that somehow because

of his being impeached, i wonder about that. remember, your boss is still out there on the campaign trail, the guy they wanted to hang. he's still visible, still public, still running for president against donald trump, even though he doesn't always admit it. i wonder how dicy that becomes when you have, you know, people who are saying donald trump inherently saying he shouldn't be president, including your former boss. how is dhs even processing all this? >> i think the threat level remains. i think we are in a period right now where there's a rise in anti-semitism, a rise in hate. all those things happening and you have leaders of our country who are perpetuating these narratives that are fueling that and other networks that shall remain nameless that are also participating in that. the thing is we got here in this moment because people like kevin mccarthy instead of saying stop, stop pushing these narratives, this is dangerous for our country. you're creating more division and anger and there are individuals like pete said, like peter said, that are going to go

and act on this. we're seeing that happen. they show up at congressional offices, at fbi buildings. this is what they do. how do we deal with this? dhs is looking, okay, we're going to deal with the threats. we try to figure out how to coordinate the intelligence across the community, but how do you counter that when every day you have political leaders who are out there countering the work that you're trying to do in the homeland security space? >> this is where we come to the irony of where we started tonight. that donald trump professed to be the greatest friend of law enforcement, but he is radicalizing people who are willing to beat the hell out of law enforcement. they're willing to beat up police officers and bear spray them and kill them. and so you don't even have that line now. his supporters are actually willing to attack law enforcement too. >> yeah, and it's so hard to watch. the footage of january 6th, it's still difficult to watch those law enforcement officers being beaten as they're wedged up against the wall. just yesterday, we had somebody

sentenced it four years in jail for beating a police officer with a flag pole. these are the sorts of folks that donald trump, the fan, the supporter of law enforcement, these are his followers. these are the same folks that are still following him, that are inclined to do the same thing if he were to try to rile them up. again, the concern is not so much whether he could bring a large mass together like he did on january 6th, but it absolutely, the notion that somehow he supports law enforcement in the face of what occurred on january 6th, it's absurd. >> pretty clear he only supports them when they do what he says. olivia troye and peter strzok, thank you for being here. all right, coming up next on "the reidout," as we await possible news of a third trump indictment, we don't know how many more, we're learning more about what the special counsel is zeroing in. it involved a february 2020 meeting where trump praised the integrity of our election system. ction system with its customizable options chain,

easy-to-use tools and paper trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are. e*trade from morgan stanley. we're traveling all across america, talking to people about their hearts. how's the heart? - good. - you sure? - i think so. - how do you know? let me show you something. put two fingers right on those pads. look at that! that's your heart! that is pretty awesome. with kardiamobile, you can take a medical-grade ekg in just 30 seconds, from anywhere. kardiamobile is proven to detect atrial fibrillation, one of the leading causes of stroke. kardiamobile is now available for just $79. order at kardia.com or amazon.

my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪ ♪ it was time for a nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once-monthly add-on treatment for severe eosinophilic asthma that can mean less oral steroids. not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. ask your asthma specialist about a nunormal with nucala. we moved out of the city so our little sophie ask your asthma specialist could appreciate nature. but then he got us t-mobile home internet.

i was just trying to improve our signal, so some of the trees had to go. i might've taken it a step too far. (chainsaw revs) (tree crashes) (chainsaw continues) (daughter screams) let's pretend for a second that you didn't let down your entire family. what would that reality look like? well i guess i would've gotten us xfinity... and we'd have a better view. do you need mulch? what, we have a ton of mulch.

this is your moment. critics declare oppenheimer is magnificent.n. the new york times calls it staggering. it's utterly enthralling and one of the best movies of the century. donald trump can breathe a little easier tonight, at least until thursday. that is when a d.c. grand jury is expected to meet next and potentially decide on whether the twice impeached, twice indicted former president has earned his third indictment. as we await word from that grand jury, we're getting more evidence that special counsel jack smith is looking to center his case around trump's mind set about election integrity. cnn is reporting the special counsel's office has been asking

about a february 2020 oval office meeting where trump was actually praising improvements to the security of u.s. elections. according to four people familiar with the meeting told cnn, in the meeting with senior u.s. officials and white house staff, trump touted his administration's work to expand the use of paper ballots and support security audits of vote tallies. trump was so encouraged by federal efforts to protect election systems that he suggested the fbi and the department of homeland security hold a press conference to take credit for the work. i know, it's quite different from the donald trump who just weeks later started spreading voter fraud conspiracy theories. the same ones he continues to spread to this day. and perhaps seeing the writing on the wall, today, trump again called upon his defense team and congress to come to his aid and investigate the so-called witch hunts against him. something the house republicans did for him following his first indictment. out of new york. joining me now is neal katyal,

former acting solicitor general and law professor. and joyce vance, former u.s. attorney, professor at the university of alabama school of law, and both are msnbc legal analysts. ladies first, joyce. mind set. does it matter and what do you think the significance is of jack smith apparently looking into donald trump's mind set regarding the security of the 2020 election? >> so it's an interesting contrast. this donald trump who thought that the election was going to be secure, and it's a great lead-in to what we kneto be true, that trump repeatedly refused to commit to honoring the results of the election if he lost. it was always couched in some sort of language that suggested that an election that he won would be legitimate and an election he lost would be illegitimate. so jack smith has a story and he'll have to decide how he wants to frame that story for the jury. one of the excellent frames he has the option of presenting

here is this early mind set and how trump sort of led himself into the big lie and january 6th. and the entire scope of events that took place. this is probably an exercise in framing the indictment. >> so it's more framing, neal, because i can have the mind set that frank figliuzzi has said this on with nicolle, i can have a mind set the bank cheated me, but that doesn't mean i can rob the bank. so it's like it kind of matters and kind of doesn't matter. how do you think it could be used if in fact he was saying the election had great integrity, we should do a press conference, and wait, the election was stolen? >> i think that's partially right. first, i think the big news of this week is it's becoming increasingly clear that donald trump is going to double his current number of indictments from two to four with a jack smith indictment for january 6th and an indictment for georgia,

that's the way it looks. why do i say that? it's because of my answer to your question. i think all of this evidence that is being introduced by jack smith, including the february 2020 meetings and trump's views on it, all go to a key thing in the criminal law, which is what we call mens rea, or criminal intent. that's the essence of criminal law, which makes it different from anything else. like if you're driving down the street and you sneeze and you wind up hitting someone, and they die, you know, that is not murder because you didn't intend to kill that person. here, jack smith has to prove something about donald trump's corrupt intent. and that's why he's looking at evidence before january 6th, going all the way back to february 20th, during the november election, and then after the november election, going all the way through january 6th and beyond. and even if trump can manage to splice together some statements he's made to the press about how he won or so on or something

like that, what smith has access to is every person potentially that donald trump talked to at the time, every written record, whether it's an email, a text message, or the like. mark meadows' texts, for example, surfacing. that's why donald trump can't lie his way out of this criminal process the way he can other things. >> and joyce, let's talk about the target letter for a second. this is what the statutes that are cited deprivation of rights under color of law, conspiracy to defraud the u.s., and tampering with a wince. does that tell us anything about what the specifics of charges could be? >> so the target letter which we're learning about only through third parties,ee have not seen the letter itself, which i think is pretty important to keep in mind. but if this is an accurate reference to these three statutes, this suggests that this will be an indictment that will try to bring about some form of justice for some of the worst incidents involving trump.

there's of course the 371 conspiracy to interfere with government functions. there's also the other what's commonly referred to as witness intimidation, but is also a statute that can be used to talk about interference with government functioning. and then there's this sort of mysterious reference to 18 u.s. code 241, a statute that is frequently used in the civil rights world for indictments. here's what i suspect that means about where jack smith is headed. if in fact he's going to use that, this is a statute that we would often put in play when a bad actor was trying to prevent someone from voting or prevent their vote from being counted. there's a case in play right now, a case where the defendant has been districted at trial but not yet sentenced, and that's a case where the gentleman was involved in online providing misinformation, telling people that they could vote by text or

vote by posting their preference online, which of course isn't true. and he's prosecuted under 241, and joy, what it reminds me of is these paper cases we used to see where people would go in to black neighborhoods and mail out these glossy postcards and say republicans vote on whatever the correct date of the election is, democrats, you vote the following tuesday. this is that same sort of kkk inspired conduct, keeping people from voting. if jack smith is crafting a case around the notion of either preventing people from voting or keeping their votes from being counted, that's the heartland of 241. >> fascinating. okay, last one to you, neal, because i think what everyone wants to know is timeline. and does it say anything that nothing happened today. they meet again on thursday. is it possible this drags on past this week? or do you anticipate that we are kind of reaching an end game in the jack smith process? >> it's certainly possible this

goes past this week. i do think that the sending of a target letter last week and jack smith knowing that donald trump's going to go tweet about it, you know, with the minutes, smith would know that. i do think his ducks are probably all in a row. there's some new evidence about bernie carrick and so on, but i think none of that is probably going to slow this thing down. it looks like for jack smith to send that letter, he had to be pretty sure he was going to indict and indict soon. i expect this week, but look, could it be next week or the week after? absolutely. but i think that's where we're barreling towards. >> don't make any plans, that's all i'm telling the both of you. i know you would love to go on vacation, but we need you to be close. thank you very much. coming up next on "the reidout," while states like florida attempt to rewrite the horrors of slavery, president biden and vice president harris honor the till family on what would have been emmett till's 82nd birthday. stay right there.

summer. it's the hungriest time of year for kids across america. kids whose hardworking families are struggling to make ends meet. whether it's working the crazy hours so you can have enough money for food or, you know, just giving up things for your personal self, and it's just yeah, gotta feed your kids. far too many kids are missing the meals they need this summer.

that's why i'm here now asking you to join me in helping end child hunger in america for just $0.63 a day. that's only $19 a month. you can help provide healthy meals to power kids through their days. they're growing at this age, and they need the best diet they can have. so please, call now or go online to helpnokidhungry.org right now give $19 a month, only $0.63 a day. and when you use your credit card, you'll get this special team t-shirt to show that you're helping kids build a brighter future for themselves and for the world. we want to ensure that all of our kids have healthy meals every day, and many of our parents and many of our communities are still suffering. it's very difficult to, you know, have a good family setting when we are worrying about having enough food for your family.

you can help kids get healthy meals this summer and all year long. please join me in supporting no kid hungry today. for just $0.63 a day, only $19 a month. you can help provide healthy meals to kids across america and in your local community. thank you for giving. thank you for giving. thank you! families are struggling to make ends meet. these are hard times. so please call now or go online to give. ♪♪ with fastsigns, signage that gets you noticed turns hot lots into homes. ♪♪ fastsigns. make your statement.

pain was keeping me off my game. and now i'm winning again. blue-emu is the powerful relief i need. blue-emu, it works fast, and you won't stink.

at a time when there are those who seek to ban books, bury history, we're making it clear. crystal, crystal clear. darkness and denialism can hide

much, they erase nothing. >> today, on what would have been emmett till's 82nd birthday, president biden signed a proclamation designating a national monument to honor the child who was abducted, tortured, and murdered in 1955 after allegedly whistling at a white woman in mississippi. emmett till's family, his mom and his grandfather, and his cousins and friends who lived through his disappearance and the discovery of his bludgeoned remains, when they were just kids themselves, were forever changed by his lynching. the national monument will include sites in chicago, illinois, and mississippi. honoring not just this murdered boy but also his mother, mamie till mobley. whose role in exposing the brutality of her son's murder changed the course of the civil rights movement in america. the monuments come as new standards for florida's public schools include teaching students that black people benefitted from slavery, because it taught them useful skills. attempting to soften the impact slavery had on this country,

including its after math, that made violence against the descendants of slaves literally routine in places like mississippi. but you can't understand that, before the lynching of emmett till without understanding the history and brutal legacy of american slavery. what it did not just to black people but also the ways in which it warped white society. the conceit that enslaved people developed skills while in captivity suggests that black people arrived in this country as uncivilized savages without value or humanity, and without slavery, they would have been nothing. it reframes slavery as an act of mercy, suggesting that african people were civilized by the people who kidnapped them, raped them, subjected them to forced breeding, and sold their children like cattle, and whose sons and grandsons were given a literal license to kill children like emmett till, as the wages of being white. joining me now is brent legs, executive director of the

african american cultural heritage action fund, and senior vice president of the national trust for historic preservation, and lonny bunch iii, secretary of the smithsonian institution and founding director of the national museum of african american history and culture. mr. bunch was instrumental in the decision to display emmett till's original casket at the museum. thank you both for being here. i want to start by playing a little bit of reverend wheeler parker, and you were there as he spoke today along with the president and vice president. and he was emmett's best friend and younger cousin and the last surviving witness to the abduction. let's play what he said. >> it has been quite a journey for me from the darkness to the light. when i sat with my family on the night of terror, when emmett till was taken from us, taken to be tortured, brutally murdered,

back then in the darkness, i could never imagine a moment like this. >> what was it like to be in the room and what do you think this monument means to the country? >> a beautiful moment, even though this history is painful, it felt like a celebration and it represented social progress. to see reverend wheeler parker, the last surviving witness to this unimaginable tragedy, and to walk in with president biden and the vice president, standing there at that podium, letting the world know that emmett till's life matters. that mamie till mobley and with unimaginable grief, that she would be able to catalyze the american civil rights movement, it was a day that was profoundly important in american history, and it also demonstrates the important role of historic preservation in american society. >> absolutely. and lonny, we call it the

blacksonian, the museum you brought to life is so critical. it shocks me that anyone would want to bury history. history good or bad is so instructive and useful and nurturing so we can move forward in life. you made the decision to have emmett till's coffin there. i know it was not an easy decision. can you talk about that decision? >> you know, when emmett till's coffin was discovered in a sort of warehouse, the family said, will you take it? at first, i thought i'm thought sure, but then because i was fortunate enough in chicago to get to know mamie till mobley, and when she and i would talk, she would talk about how she had carried the memory of emmett till for 50 years, and somebody else had to now carry it. so i really wrestled with, is it ghoulish, is it the right thing to do? at first i decided to collect it and just preserve it. but then i kept hearing mamie till mobley say, somebody has to

carry that memory. so we crafted an exhibition that would show it, not so much the focus on the broken body but the focus on the courage of mamie till mobley. the moment that was the worst moment of her life, to use that to transform a nation, to transform herself, to basically make sure that emmett till's murder would change america, and she was so right. >> yeah, and that was her only child, her bobo, her only baby. what is the significance of having the multiple memorials? >> so it includes three different sites. one is the river site where his body was discovered, it also includes the tallahatchie county courthouse, and this is an example of legal injustice where two white men who were on trial for his murder would be set free by an all-white jury. and then it includes robert's temple in chicago, which is

where mamie till mobley and the till family made the decision to have an open casket funeral in 1955. these three landmarks together helped to tell a more complete story about the gaps in the american civil rights movement. and in particular, chicago will be the very first national monument that directly tells the story of the black experience in that city. >> yeah. >> really important. >> there is that connective tissue between mississippi and chicago that people may not know. but that's the reason he was there, he lived in chicago. the family was from mississippi. so many people went back and forth. lonny, i want to ask you your impressions of what we're going through right now where people are essentially banning history. where in florida, they are now claiming in their educational standards that slaves benefitted from history and trying to soften it. and now you have on another network which shall remain nameless one of their hosts saying you could say the same thing about jews in the

holocaust, that they survived the holocaust because they were good workers. greg gutfeld said that on tv. now we're in the business of saying when anything bad was done to, you know, anyone who is in a marginalized community, it was a gift to them. your thoughts. >> well, i'm always struck that i have always heard that america is the home of the brave. but we're not brave enough to face our history? that in many ways, what we have really now done is said, let us not understand the fullness of america. you can't understand america without understanding slavery. you can't understand america without understanding racial violence. but you can't also understand america without understanding the resiliency, the courage of a mamie till mobley. for me, the notion that somehow enslavement gave people skills is really an old 20th century school of thought that we have

done away with for years. in essence, the most important thing to remember is slavery didn't break african americans, but they sure tried. as a result of that strength and resiliency, african americans have really helped to remake america. almost any time you think of the advancement of civil rights or the freedom or citizenship, it's tied to african americans. so in some ways mamie till mobley's worst moment of her life was a moment that allowed the civil rights movement to say, let's make america be america. >> right, and i will -- we're out of time, but i think people also don't think about the ways in which enslavement warped white society and at the lower rungs of white society in which the men who killed emmett till live, that sort of purge, getting to do violence against black people, was the substitute for giving men things like decent wages and a decent life. they were giving the license to do violence.

that's why this young man, this boy, was killed. we need to talk about all that. brent and lonny, thank you both for being here. it's been an honor to talk with you. coming up next, new yorker, womanizer, accused criminal, these are a few of the characteristics shared by donald trump and a previous president who managed to return to the presidency after being voted out. we'll tell you who he is and what he was accused of after the break. flexible patch with maximum otc strength lidocaine that contours to the body to relieve pain right where it hurts. and did we mention, it really, really sticks? salonpas, it's good medicine. hi, i'm tony hawk, and like many of you,

and i take a statin it really, to reduce cholesterol, but statins can also deplete coq10 levels. that's why my doctor recommended qunol coq10. qunol has the number one cardiologist recommended form of coq10. qunol. the brand i trust.

we're traveling all across america talking to people about their hearts. ooh, take this exit. how's the heart? i feel like it's good. you feel like it's good? how do you know when it's time to check in on your heart? how do you know? let me show you something. it looks like a credit card, but it is the kardiamobile card. that is a medical-grade ekg. want to see how it works? yeah. put both thumbs on there. that is your heart coming from the kardiamobile card. wow! with kardiamobile card you can take a medical-grade ekg in just 30 seconds from anywhere. kardiamobile card is proven to detect atrial fibrillation, one of the leading causes of stroke. and it's the only personal ekg that's fda-cleared to detect normal heart rhythm, bradycardia and tachycardia. how much do you think that costs? probably $500. $99!

oh really? you could carry that in your wallet! of course you can carry it in your wallet, right? yes, yes. checking your heart anytime, anywhere has never been easier. don't wait. get kardiamobile card for just $99 at kardia.com or amazon.

i was told my small business wouldn't qualify for an erc tax refund. you should get a second opinion from innovation refunds at no upfront cost. sometimes you need a second opinion. [coughs] good to go. yeah, i think i'll get a second opinion. all these walls gotta go! ah ah ah! i'd love a second opinion. no. i'm going to get a second opinion. with innovation refunds, there's no upfront cost to find out. so why not check like i did for my small business? take the first step to see if your small business qualifies for the erc.

if donald trump were to win the 2024 election, he would not be the first president to win then lose then win again. the first and only president so far to serve two nonconsecutive terms with a 22nd and 24th president of the united states, grover cleveland. in 1884, cleveland ran for president on the democratic ticket. and just weeks before the election, it was uncovered by reporters that cleveland fathered a child out of wedlock. it was revealed that ten years prior, cleveland had sexually assaulted a woman named maria, resulting in the birth of a child which was a massive scandal at the time. despite efforts to play it down by his campaign, republicans saw this vulnerability and ran with it, making campaign posters like this one, and chanting at rallies, mom, mom, where's my pa, gone to the white house, ha

ha ha. despite all this, cleveland managed to get just enough votes in four swing states to narrowly win that election. sound familiar? now, fast forward to today, and we have donald trump. who is probably the most vulnerable front-runner in recent presidential campaign history, but the difference now is all of his opponents with the exception of asa hutchinson and chris christie, are refusing to criticize him. this is a candidate with a lot of baggage. he literally tried to overturn a democratic election 2 1/2 years ago. he incited an insurrection at the capitol, something he will probably be indicted for any day now, which would make this his third indictment just this year. not to mention the two impeachments, the fact he was found liable for sexual abuse, the list goes on and on. in a normal universe, this political opponents would be using all of this to their advantage. going after him in ads, on the trail, in interviews, every opportunity possible. but instead, the republican candidates aren't doing any of

that. they refuse to criticize trump. in fact, they seem scared of him, which doesn't make sense, especially considering these republicans are literally running against trump, which by itself means they don't think he should be president. and if they for some reason think being trump's friend will help them in the polls, spoiler alert, it's not. trump is still beating them by 20, 30, 50 points. it's not unusual to have a crowded field of weak candidates, but this particular field is unlike any that we have seen in recent history. which is why it's always good to have a historian friend around. so michael beschloss will join me to discuss this very odd mess next. ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ power e*trade's award-winning trading app makes trading easier. with its customizable options chain, easy-to-use tools and paper trading to help sharpen your skills,

you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are. e*trade from morgan stanley. when i was diagnosed with h-i-v, i didn't know who i would be. but here i am... being me. keep being you... and ask your healthcare provider about the number one prescribed h-i-v treatment, biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in many people whether you're 18 or 80. with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to undetectable—and stay there whether you're just starting or replacing your current treatment. research shows that taking h-i-v treatment as prescribed and getting to and staying undetectable prevents transmitting h-i-v through sex. serious side effects can occur, including kidney problems and kidney failure. rare, life-threatening side effects include a buildup of lactic acid and liver problems. do not take biktarvy if you take dofetilide or rifampin. tell your healthcare provider about all the medicines and supplements you take, if you are pregnant or breastfeeding, or if you have kidney or liver problems, including hepatitis. if you have hepatitis b do not stop taking biktarvy without talking to your healthcare provider. common side effects were diarrhea, nausea,

and headache. no matter where life takes you, biktarvy can go with you. talk to your healthcare provider today.

(ambience of room, crickets, scrolling content on phone) they're off from school, but not really home. images and videos. social media, fine-tuned to suck them in. and steal them away. alone you can't stop it. together we will. we have a plan. join us. ( ♪♪ ) >> thank you and anybody that

would like to be a part of what we're doing, go to mike pence 2024.com, don't even $1. you will help us get us on that debate debate stage in a month. >> if you want an idea of how desperate and said the 2024 republican field is getting, that was the most recent former vice president of the united states begging for donations, so that he can qualify to get on the debate stage. and even as mike pence struggles to keep his campaign afloat, he still won't aggressively go after the republican front runner. his former boss who quite literally unleashed an angry mob at the capitol on january 6th, 2021, a crowd that was caught on camera chanting hang mike pence. the former vp will not even go so far as the car what happened that day and insurrection. joining me now to try to make it make sense as michael beschloss, nbc news presidential historian

historian there is never been anything like this, this time we are living in which a former vice president was also the victim of a homicide at the hands of the president, at which then he's running against him and still won't say it's an insurrection. i don't get it. >> so joy, if you are vice president to a president who was perfectly cool with having you hanged on the 6th of january, and actually told people, mike pence deserves that faith, and put you in a state of being terrified with your wife and your daughter in the capital, hiding in the basement and other places, i know you well enough to know that perhaps the strongest thing he would say would not be like mike pence, i was disappointed by president trump that day. i think you would've said, he tried to have me hanged, i want him out of office. so, mike pence is not the exception. just as you are saying. this crowd of people's running against donald trump, but they are terrified of him and they don't want to take the slightest risk. and the point i would make, roughly, is the founders who

designed this system, beginning with james madison, the idea is that you would run for the senate, run for governor ship, ran for president, he would say what he wanted to do, and if you had lost, you would be like what jon kennedy said about himself in 1960. he said in his, september 19th, 60, if i should lose this election, i will return my seat in the senate, satisfied that i try my best, and was fairly judged. that is what the american tradition is. i mean, what's wrong with nikki haley is all she can do running for office is to try to inflate her lecture fees. you've got a group of people who will not save us from the dangers of donald trump, will not save anyone, and this is not leadership, it's cowardice. >> and it's not clear because the thing, is inherent in running for president to saying that everyone but you should not be president, right? it includes donald trump. you have one guy -- i don't think every anyone knows who he is, he's a billionaire. he's paying people $2 a pop, he's paying for people to give him $1. that is getting him on the

rebate stage. he might be on and mike pence not make it. >> right. >> it or $20, he's paying $20 if you will give him $1. that's insane. >> and mike pence does not even have that -- because not of his donors are giving him money at all. >> so, what happens? i wonder, as you look at this field, there have been week things before. there was one -- the seven dwarfs, it was this -- you know, obviously, grover cleveland here would've never been that strong, how do you want to gain. >> no. >> have you seen, as you look back, a field this week? >> i have not and particularly, i've not seen a field that does something that, to my mind, should be a disqualifier in american politics. and that is, most of these people who are running, with the exception may be of asa hutchinson or maybe chris christie, in private they will say, donald trump is terrible. and we have got to get rid of him. but i'm too terrified to say that in public. >> right. >> the whole idea of the system is that you say in public what

you say in private. and i would say that the vast majority of these people, they are squealing with cowardice, and that is not supposed to be the way it is. >> the other thing that is unusual is that we have an actual attempted coup in the united states and the person who propagated it is now the most viable candidate in the republican party for president. >> something that you and i, i think i can speak for both of us, we had been told ten years ago that incumbent president would wage a coup d'état, and insurrection, try to destroy our system of government, to stay in power, maybe forever, we might think the people who would run against him in a primary campaign, like right now, would say, maybe that was a bad idea. maybe that is disqualifying. they are not saying it. there is something wrong that's deeply -- >> you and i both know that the parties change,? write a republican and democrat 100 years ago looked very different. what is the republican party now? >> the republican party now is a donald trump cult, as you have said and as i have said.

the test of that is, you know, these people after donald trump lost the election to joe biden november of 2020, could've said here, i'm getting off the trump train. 6th of january, trump did what no president has ever done before, tried to destroy our democracy with a coup to stay in office. they could've gotten off the train than, most of these people did not. all these people who are running. then a week after joe biden took office, speaker, now speaker mccarthy, could have said, i like a lot of donald trump's programs, -- >> the fact he said it, he did say it. >> he did at first, but the coup d'états and insurrection, maybe a little dealbreaker for me. instead, eight days after the inauguration, he goes down to mar-a-lago, poses next to trump like a picture of neville chamberlain and adolf hitler in 1938, not saying that trump's killer, but that was that kind of almost not of that magnitude,

but that kind of submission to someone who is an autocrat. if you don't have politicians who are going to stick up for americans and say, i love democracy, and if there is an anti-democratic candidate like donald trump, i'm going to stop him, we are in big trouble. >> yes, we are, indeed. it's going to be an election a nail-biter and -- indeed. michael beschloss, always love having you here. >> same here, love always being with you. >> thank you, my friend. and that is tonight's reidout. all in with chris hayes starts right now. all in with chris hayes starts right now. >> good evening from new york, i'm jen psaki in for chris hayes. this tuesday and we are all still on indictment watch. special counsel jack smith's investigation into the effort to steal the 2020 election. so, the grand jury was expected to meet again in washington, d.c., today, but as we learned this afternoon, they did not. the next time they are scheduled to meet is thursday and there are new developments in the special counsel investigation we are g