a week, something like that. but yes, something like that. we're having fun, there's lots to talk about, that's the good news. >> that is the msnbc version of the full ginsburg. working seven days, right? something like that. thank you, my friend. >> can't wait to watch. >> i love these handoffs. america loves these handoffs. i don't know if they do, but thank you, jim. thank you all at home for joining me this hour. late last night at nearly midnight, former president trump's attorney, rudy giuliani stopped contesting that he lied about the 2020 election. he waved the legal version of a white flag. specifically, mr. giuliani stopped contesting the claim that he made false statements about two georgia election workers, ruby freeman inter daughter. shea moss. >> ruby and for a shush -- and one other gentlemen -- usb ports in the vials of

heroin or cocaine. >> after the 2020 election, rudy giuliani used this video to push a conspiracy theory that somehow with the usb sticks and secret boxes of balance, ruby freeman and shea moss had helped him to steal the election from donald trump in georgia. he infamous called pressuring georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger to find him nearly 12,000 votes, trump himself brought up ruby freeman. he brought her up 18 times. he called her a professional scammer and hustler. to this day, you can still find that video pushing baseless conspiracy theories about freeman and moss. you can still find it on trump's official youtube page. none of the allegations against ruby freeman and shaye moss are true. they were doing their jobs, they broke no laws and the illicit thing that they passed each other was not the usb

stick. it was a ginger mint. when mr. giuliani made this major concession last night, no longer contesting that they lied about moss and freeman in the defamation case between them. when he did, that it was national news. now today, mr. giuliani is saying that the latest admission was not actually in admission at all. he released a video tonight explaining that he is not actually admitting that he lied. he is no longer contesting that he lied in this specific court case said that it can move forward. in other words, he did not want to have to prove he wasn't lying in court, i wonder why. he's just going to stop contesting the facts. the facts are that giuliani lied about ruby freeman and shaye moss. don't get the man wrong. don't miss quote him. three years later, he's apparently somehow still sticking by the lies that he

told about these election officials, despite the profound damage that those lies has done. >> there's nowhere that i feel safe. nowhere. do you know how it feels to have the president of the united states target you? >> of gained about 60 pounds. i don't do anything anymore. i don't want to go anywhere. a second guess everything that i do. it's affected my life in a major way. everywhere. all because of lies. >> around the week of january 6th, the fbi informed me that i needed to leave my home for safety. >> i received a call from my grandfather saying that there is people at her home and they

-- you know, knocked on the door. she opened it and so i was who is there, who it was, and they just started pushing their way through claiming that they were coming in to make a citizens arrest. they needed to find me in my mom, they knew we were there. >> did the other election workers shown in that state farm video and their supervisors, how many are still election workers in fulton county? >> there are no permanent election workers or supervisor in a video that is still there. >> did you end up leaving your position as well? >> yes, i left. >> the damage is done. ruby freeman and shaye moss are just facts in a defamation case they can be conceded two and skipped over, they are real people. in many ways, these two women are just the tip of the iceberg. miss freeman and miss moss are emblematic of the real harm that giuliani's and trump's

baseless claims of election fraud brought to election workers all across the country. we're going to play some clips now that are fairly disturbing. if you want to mute your tv or if you want to cover your kids ears, now is your chance. it's a sampling of the kind of vitriol that has been aimed at election officials thanks to the lies propagated by president trump and his associates. >> time is running out, richard. we are coming after you and every mother [bleep] that stole the election with our second amendment. subpoena be dammed. you're going to be served lead, you [bleep] anomie communist. you will be served lead. >> it's all gone too far. all of it. joe asked today for chris krebs, the patriot that he ran beside

to be shot. a 20 something -- has death threats and a noose, put out saying he should be hung for treason because he was transferring a report on fascists from in ems to county computer so he could read it. it has to stop. >> one night after december of 2020 i was about to put my son to bed. dozens of individuals descended upon our home. growing in numbers over the course of an hour, they stood outside my front door, waking my day burrs, shedding obscenity's and graphic threats and bullhorns. to this day, these images and memory of that evening still haunt me. there is an omnipresent feeling of anxiety and dread that permeates our daily lives and those of our families. not long ago, my son, standing in our driveway picked up a stick, turned to me and said, don't worry mom, if the bad guys come again, i'll get them

with this. he's six years old. >> threats and harassment like that have become a regular occurrence for election workers and election officials all across the united states. like shaye moss and ruby freeman, that means that a lot of them just choose not to return to their jobs. the brennan center for justice pulled election officials across the country, and found that turnover is so high that when the 2024 election comes around, more than 20% of local election officials might have to be new recruits those are people that have never administer presidential elections before. in key swing states, the effect of these election lies and accusations of fraud were even more acute. last year, the boston globe actually quantified it. in michigan, nearly 27% of county level election officials have left their posts. in wisconsin, 30% are gone. in georgia, 36% have quit.

in arizona, 37% are gone. in pennsylvania, 39% are no longer on the job. almost 40% of county election officials in the state that determined the final outcome of the 2020 presidential election, almost 40% of them have quit. that's the toll taken by these lies. thank you, mr. giuliani for sort of maybe admitting you had lied, but just in court to move case along and not lie. the damage quite clearly has been done. how do we as a country clean at this mess? joining me now is the secretary of state from michigan, jocelyn benson, the chief elections official for that state. secretary benson, thanks so much for being here. i would like to get your reaction to this. i think we can call it a concession on the part of mr. giuliani did these claims about the two election workers were baseless.

>> i don't even know if i would go so far as to say that it's a concession. the way outside of the court documents, he continued to walk back what he said. none of his capitulation's or dancing in this moment or any other change the reality and history, did he and others lied about an election causing dire consequences to the lives of professional election administrators in the process. people showed up outside my home two days, three days after mayor giuliani, rudy giuliani had showed up at our state capitol in lansing telling lies about our elections. she and ruby moss are amazing women and represent the stories of so many untold election workers who have left their jobs because of these threats that come in many ways from these very loud voices and continue to do so. the question is, where that

would be -- the good of these lies? i certainly hope so. as my colleague gabe sterling said, almost three years ago, this needs to stop. we also need to stop seeing michael adele and so many others including presidential candidates, and u.s. senator spreading lies for the political gain. it has real life consequences for those men and women whose job it is to make democracy work for everyone. >> yes, on that note, it's not just giuliani and trump, right? it's not limited to an administration intent on clinging to power. this is now the de facto position of the republican party to suggest that there was fraud in the 2020 election and could be in future elections. this is a position of presidential candidates. nobody's out there telling the truth. i wonder given as we are on the precipice of the potential federal indictment of the former president on january 6th charges, or charges for interfering with the 2020 election, do you think that could have the effect that it potentially needs to have,

which is in ameliorated effect? to reverse the decay, the right that has penetrated some of these institutions in terms of public confidence? do you think that the toothpaste, for lack of a better metaphor, it can be put back in the tube? >> two things will result. certainly the accountability is a really important after -- when we were going through all of this in the fall of 2020, i remember the days in which when we were up against the federal government. the president of the united states was coming after us. and his most ardent supporters for doing our jobs, doing nothing wrong. we couldn't help the the last presidential election, we just had to make sure everyone could vote and tell the truth. we have these moments where we kind of recognized the, we may lose this battle over democracy in this moment. we might lose it in the future. that is real. the courts are the ones that held the line intimated truth be told. that's why this concession

today, or last night, is so critical. it shows you can't lie in the court of law. you can perhaps lie outside of the four seasons gardening arena or wherever that press conference was meant to be held. you can't line a court of law. the more we see legal cases brought forward pushing for the truth, whether it's criminal charges or defamation charges, it helps us get to a point where we have an official affirmation of what is fact or false. the other thing that i will mention, what we have lived through over the last three years, at the same time we have seen pain in our democracy, people losing their jobs or walking away from the work. we have also seen an influx of so many americans on both sides of the aisle who know the truth, who know the courage that it took to defend the truth and are standing with us and serving as election workers, volunteering his coworkers for future elections because they believe in the process. in many ways, that gives me hope that we can emerge from this moment. it's a stronger elections process than ever before.

>> on that note, does it worry you that up to a fifth of election workers in the 2024 presidential race might be new, not having any administrative experience in what is sure to be a contested election or at least a very fraught election given the percentage of one of the leading candidates. >> certainly. the turnover is concerning. it also provides us with an opportunity to recognize that over half of those election officials who have lived through 2020 going back again in 2024. we are ready, why isn't, and strengthened to protect the process. we are train those that are coming in as new election officials to be proud of this work. to stand with the truth and will of the people, whatever it might be. i we've gone through these last few years here in michigan, learning how to take these challenges and making them opportunities. i think that that's what you'll see, i believe, unfolding in 2024. if americans all across the country to join with us and stand up to be part of the process and push back against the lies.

>> i mean, i think a lot of people appreciate the optimism of your position, which is that people are flooding the zone as it were, when democracy was being threatened, people aren't averting their eyes. they're coming and raising their hands there to volunteer and save it. on that note, in less than a more craven chapter of strengthening democracy, the republican party appears to understand that it isn't good electoral politics to turn people off of early voting, mail-in voting, absentee balloting. the rnc is launching a new campaign featuring donald trump of all people and urging republicans to vote early. it's not the same thing is donald trump saying the 2020 election wasn't stolen but it is something. i wonder what you make of that, and b, if you're at all optimistic that donald trump somehow can encourage people to come back, to come back home again. to the institutions that were set up there were thus far

unparalleled in terms of the integrity. >> look, i want everyone everywhere to take advantage of all of the options that they have to vote in their states and communities. look at the one opening and most convenient for you, no matter where you live or have, or participate in the democracy. as far as the former president and others now are embracing early voting, great, i would like to see him also be talking about how secure it is, how secure ballot drop boxes are. how we can trust the results of the election. let's take that one step further. you're not just endorsing the process, but overriding the past lies by telling the truth about the security of our elections. the security of our early voting and reliability of the machines and results in a paper ballot election. if we see that, then we will have more cause for optimism. we also have to remember that its neighbors and everyday citizens that can be the the arbiters of truth and truth tellers in their communities. even if you don't get that from candidates and politicians. it is incumbent upon all of us to use the facts and truth

about our elections and spread that to our neighbors, to our fellow -- to our colleagues all around the country. if we can do that as citizens, then we can fight back against the lies together. >> michigan secretary of state joscelyn benson, it's so great to get a view from the state and especially the state that has been through so much as it concerns the 2020 election. thank you greatly for your time tonight. i really appreciate it. >> thank you for having me. >> we have a lot more to get to this evening. if you found the breathless hotlines about hunter biden's plea deal collapsing or if you find those breathless headlines somewhat confusing you are not alone. we will get into what actually happened and what it all means, coming up next. plus, watch what happens an nbc reporter and they ask trump's former chief of staff mark meadows whether he is cooperating with the special counsel's investigation into january 6th. stick around for that.

>> everyone condemned what happened in terms of the breach of security on the capitol on january 6th. >> trying to feed the narrative that the january 6th committee wants to move forward. i can condemn what happened at jerry sixth but i am not going to be intimidated. >> for nearly one full year after the attack on the capitol, trump's former chief of staff

mark meadows was more than happy to go on right-wing tv to talk about january 6th and slammed the house committee investigating it. the next summer, after the committee released bombshell testimonies from meadows, involving cassidy hutchinson, the former chief of staff suddenly went quiet. >> i'm not commenting on anything that relates to the president running for january 6th. >> have you spoken to cassidy hutchinson before her testimony? >> i don't comment on anything about january 6th. >> there was one year ago. since then, mr. meadows has had to deal with more than just a congressional committee. a judge ordered him to testify for the federal grand jury investigating january 6th, as well as trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election. but in the days and weeks since then, mark meadows has sort of disappeared. that radio silence has led to rumors that mark meadows could've flipped on his former boss. which brings us to today, when

mr. meadows refused to even say the words january 6th. anne >> have you testify before the grand jury? >> i don't talk about anything generous sixth related. >> you think it's appropriate for the investigation? >> at least one federal prosecutor says that meadows silence speaks volumes. >> what i will say in watching that video is that that looks to me like somebody who is a cooperating with the federal government. >> joining us now is mary mccord, former acting assistant attorney general for the national security of department of justice and co host of msnbc podcast, prosecuting donald trump. mary, thank you for being here. mary, can you enlighten those of us that haven't ever done this before? what it's like when it's a witness that flips and starts cooperating with investigators? >> oftentimes the investigation, particularly where conspiracy is one of the charges the

considered, prosecutors will try to reach out to coconspirators who have faced their own criminal culpability, who potentially might themselves be indicted. if what they have to provide for the government is significant enough, it's good enough evidence that it is so useful to a prosecution of the other coconspirators, they will sometimes offer a cooperation agreement. a cooperation agreement can mean that the person will have to plead guilty to something but it would probably be lesser charges than he would otherwise face in he were indicted. in return for pleading guilty for lesser charges and giving testimony against does that end up being indicted, the government will then add sentencing for what is called a five k letter, a substantial subsistence letter, a letter saying to the judge for this cooperator provided system angel systems to the government, and therefore should get a

lesser sentence. in, fact a sentence that might even be below what the guidelines range is. sometimes if the person is testimony and evidence is so valuable, prosecutors might decide not to require the person to plead guilty to everything, and simply say if you provide truthful testimony, and we believe it's truthful, you cooperate fully and completely, we won't charge you at all. oftentimes when there are multiple people who are being investigated, there is some information publicly known they would suggest the day of culpability, one person suddenly stopped talking like mr. meadows, that puts up a sort of spidey sense on other prosecutors for the members of the public if that person is cooperating? >> i think that's exactly what's happening here. mr. talking on fox news who then by the way gave some important text for the january 6th committee. all the sudden doesn't want to

talk about, it is not seen in and around the circles that he is normally seen, and doesn't want to say the words january 6th anymore. do you feel like meadows would be a valuable cooperator witness? i know the answer to that, but in which ways do you think that he could actually be a very powerful for donald trump specifically? >> i would throughout one caution. i would think that even if he wasn't cooperating, if i were his attorney and i thought he was potentially going to be indicted, i would also have told him to keep your mouth shut. no more public comments. you can have another interpretation of this but getting to your question, mr. meadows was one of the people with the closest and most access to donald trump in this period between the election, november 3rd of 2020 on generic 6th of january 2021. there is at all of the most significant meetings, he was part of the calls of the pressure campaign on brad

raffensperger, the secretary of state of georgia to find the more than 11,000 votes that he needed in order to win georgia. he was involved in communications with congressional members and state legislators in the swing states where they were sort of pushing this idea that the legislature could come in and reverse the results in various states, and ultimately also pushing the fraudulent elector scheme, where the electors for trump went ahead and met, voted, and sent their electoral ballots into vice president pence. it is part and parcel of all of these things, but was also right there hearing mr. trump every day, but it could really add a lot of important details to what we have already pieced together from emails, texts, testimony that has come out in front of the house select committee. he could really flesh out all of the details, getting an

extremely powerful witness against mr. trump. assuming that he appears credible. anytime there's a co-operator who has something themselves to gain, that means they have a bias. they're trying to gain the favor of the government. that is -- the jury gets instructed about that, and instructed the jury should weigh them, the fact that the person has a personal interest in their own bias towards benefiting themselves, that should be weighed in assessing the credibility of the witness. right now, or maybe prior to right now, that is part of what the prosecutors themselves are figuring out. because mark meadows but come off credible when he testifies? will the jury believe him? >> what about rudy giuliani? we've had this sort of probable position that he's taken on ruby freeman and sheamus. maybe complaining the baseless claims were baseless. does his position on that have any potential effect on jack smith and the sort of halting

the discovery across this in this trial, didn't have the effect of what he? but the investigation? -- >> just that these things are separate, giuliani filing to the attorneys list because the concessions or munitions or stipulations or limited silly to that case, and what he really did is do this as a no contender. there is evidence that would support that these defamatory per se, and knowingly false. i think that he's given that up in that case. that can't be used necessarily in jack smith's case. they have to have litigation over that and this attorney is trying to cabin that. i think that jack smith probably wanted to talk to mr. giuliani to find out, you now, to lock him into some things. but i personally would be

extremely hesitant if i were to prosecuting this case, to rely on mr. giuliani as a cooperating witness, because i think there's the possibility that mark meadows might be credible, but mr. giuliani has lied so much to so many people about so many things that are easily proven false that i would be very reluctant to put that man on the stand. >> well, so far it doesn't look like he has a deal, so i think your assessment seems to be reflected in the thinking of the special counsel as it has been reported since thus far. mary mccord, posed to the msnbc podcast, prosecuting donald trump. thank you for your time today. still to come this evening, former vice president mike pence still wants to qualify for the first republican presidential primary debate. badly. plus, what really went down. when hunter biden appeared in court today. the explanation is coming up next.

this tiny payment thing- is a giant pain! hi ladies! alex from u.s. bank! can she help? how about a comprehensive point of sale system... that can track inventory, manage schedules- business essentials is for.k (oven explosion) donald trump was still what about a new oven, can u.s. bank help us there? we can serve loans in as fast as 12 minutes. that would be a big help! huge! jumbo! ginormous! woo! -woo! finding ways to make your business boom. that's what u.s. bank is for. president, the department of justice opened an investigation into hunter biden, the son of presidential candidate joe biden. president trump was apparently unaware of that investigation, and was reportedly livid when

days after losing that election it was hunter biden himself who announced that he was under federal investigation related to attacks case. trump perhaps understood this to be a missed opportunity. anyway, the doj investigation continued, and under joe biden's presidency, hunter biden was charged with two misdemeanors for failing to pay his taxes on time in 2017 and 2018. biden is also facing a separate charge for failing to disclose he was using drugs when he bought a gun back in 2018. and so when after all of these years was poised to conclude today as biden's lawyers entered a delaware court, ready to plead guilty to the tax charges. >> the guilty plea was part of the agreement that he had reached with the prosecutor, a trump appointee. that agreement stated that hunter biden wouldn't be prosecuted for the gun charge if he abided by certain conditions. experts say that this is a

fairly standard deal. it fell apart today, at least temporarily over a question about the terms of the agreements. the judge also asked both sides about scope of the immunity, a good question to ask given -- running on a promise to prosecute hunter biden again with or without evidence. joining us now is former u.s. attorney, an fbi official chuck rosenberg. also an msnbc contributor. it's great to see this evening, thank you and advance for helping to clear up exactly what went down in delaware today. i think that a lot of people understand that this plea deal had been worked on for quite some time. how exactly did it fall apart in the courtroom at the last minute? and how unusual is that? ? >> plea agreements happen all the time. every day and every federal courthouse around the country, alex. every now and then they hit a snag.

it is unusual, but not unheard of. when it happens in a high profile case, we are paying more attention. what happened here? they seem to be two problems. first one was that the judge was concerned if he pretrial diversion agreement gave her a role that she was uncomfortable with. not just adjudicating whether it is a breach, or could be a breach of that provision down the road, but it gave her some other decision-making authority it sheet that best left to the executive branch. we've seen the plea documents, i don't know precisely what the language is. we don't know precisely what concerns are. it seems to be snuggling number one. nick number two is what you just referred to. how broadly the government would confer on biden once but they had immunity for other crimes. i have to talk about either, i do think however, it will be resolved. this will ultimately go

forward. >> do you think those two snags have been political at the rear? i imagine that if you're hunter biden's team, any power or privileged with the executive branch is chancey depending on whether the executive is. but other parts -- if donald trump could be president again. do you think that's at the root of the concern here that biden folks are wearing that this could be the new benghazi where hunter biden is investigating exhaustively despite whatever evidence might not exist. >> i imagine they are concerns with this prosecutor or administration. to your larger point, the reason the defendant would want broad immunity from other prosecutions is because in this case, if mr. trump wins the presidency, he is valid to go after what he calls the biden

crime family. it is a deeply offensive and reckless statement but it has to resonate -- when a defendant pleads guilty and they're looking at immunity from crimes that the government knows about if they've investigated, they need insurance that the chapter of their life has been closed. the government wants to confirm more narrow immunity, i'll give you an example as i may, let's say we were robbing banks across the country, we've dropped ten and the government knows about all ten. you and i plead guilty to three of those, they're going to promise that they won't prosecute us for the additional seven. that is typical. maybe they don't know that you and i are also counterfeiting currency. the government would not agree to immunize us as part of our plea agreement for things that they don't know about. it is one of the issues today. how broad is the immunity that the government is going to confer on mr. biden if he pleads guilty. of course, mr. biden has been

thinking about this attorney general and this president, this administration, but what might happen to him if mr. trump regains the presidency. >> and indeed, those concerns seem well founded given the fact that members of congress speaking today, republicans including nancy mace, saying that i think the sort of dissolution of this plea deal opens some doors there and gives them a little bit more fuel behind what they are doing. they've suggested that they could be an impeachment inquiry regarding hunter biden and joe biden's alleged role in some of the financial misdeeds. there's been no actual evidence to that end. how unusual is it to have members of congress making statements about federal investigations like this? >> i've gone through much of my adult life not paying any attention to what members of congress say. i mean that in a bipartisan sense. i don't think it matters at all for the prosecutors here. it might matter in some quarters. it might matter in politics.

it might matter for fundraising. to the prosecutors, i can assure you that it doesn't matter at all, they don't pay attention to it. it's an unusual case because it's a high profile case. most cases, as i mentioned, do resolve by plea agreement. occasionally they hit snags, but what republicans or democrats, whatever you would have to stop that, it doesn't mean very much at all. >> and we will leave it on that note. chuck rosenberg. , thank you for making the time tonight, we appreciate it. >> my pleasure. >> still to come. well mike pence has still not found enough small donors to qualify for the republican presidential debate stage, florida governor ron desantis is doing better, sort of. we will explain, coming up.

>> we're reaching out to people all across the country who share our vision, our conservative values, and even encouraging people to go to mike pence 2024 dot com and donated dollar to get this on that stage. >> even $1 that mike pence 2024.com will make sure we get on that stage. >> even $1. [laughter] although i want to emphasize you can give a lot more, would be help tonight. >> mike pence 2024.com, donate even $1. you'll help us get on that debate stage in a month. >> if you have seen presidential candidate mike

pence lately, then you have heard him pleading for cash. because the republican who recently served as the vice president of the united states has still not qualified for the first republican presidential debate in milwaukee next month. vice president pence has run into trouble reaching a key benchmark to qualify for a spot on that debate stage, getting at least 40,000 individual donors. public service, name recognition, serving the saffron second highest elected position in the country, putting your life on the line to certify election results, still can't buy 40,000 people willing to give your campaign $1. so far at least seven of pence's republican rivals have announced they have qualified to appear on the stage. donald trump, ron desantis, vivek ramaswamy, nikki haley, tim scott, chris christie, and governor doug burgum of north dakota. for candidates like ramaswamy and burgum, it turns out that close to zero name recognition can indeed by your 40,000 people who are willing to give your campaign $1, particularly

when you literally try to buy those people off. governor burgum offered 20-dollar gift certificates to the first 50,000 donors who gave at least $1, and mr. ramaswamy offered his donors a 10% cut of money that they raised for his campaign. just like avon, only instead of getting commission for selling eye shadow, vivek ramaswamy has been offering people a commission on the money they raised for vivek ramaswamy. and now mr. ramaswamy and governor burgum and secure their spots at the debate and a bunch of supporters have a lot of gift cards. former vice president mike pence, however, it continues to try and get their the old-fashioned way, with endless appeals on conservative media. when we come back, with the rnc 's criteria for the small dollar donations tells us about the race as it stands right now. that is next.

>> okay, take a look at this.

this is a graph showing the sheriff fundraising from small dollar donors to republican 2024 presidential candidates in the first two quarters of this year. donald trump is the leading candidate. 82% of trump's total fundraising comes from individual contributors, from small dollar donors. those are people who gave $200 or less. those are the kind of donors who are typically able to donate more than once. they also happen to give us pretty good indication of the grassroots enthusiasm that is out there. now the enthusiasm for trump is evident, despite his considerable legal peril. and then there is biotech entrepreneur vivek ramaswamy, the one offering a 10% commission to donors donated she is a campaign. he second on this list with nearly 56% of his fundraising coming from small dollar contributors. now small dollar donations also tell us a lot about a campaign's long term viability and whether it has a base of sustaining donors who help keep it afloat in the long run.

which brings me to ron desantis. 17% of his fund raising comes from those small dollar donations, which is, well, it raises some questions. joining me now to help answer them is tim miller, writer for the bulwark, also a communications director for jeb bush's 2016 presidential campaign, which, i remember well, and which we're gonna talk about in a second. but first, the small dollar donations, those numbers, to me, more than the diminishing poll numbers, seem like a considerable problem for the desantis campaign. do you read it that way? >> yeah, they sound really familial or. they look like the jeb bush numbers. i don't remember what our percentage was, but we remember how that turned out. here's the problem, desantis was always going to be in the donor class, the big donors, rich donors, because they thought that he was going to be the person that could save them from donald trump. he was maga enough that the

rank-and-file voters would like but he wouldn't do all the crazy stuff that donald trump did. they could trust him to advance conservative policies and economic issues. it has turned out that the voters have a say in that and they don't like the candidate that was put out by the republican donor class, the rank and file backed voters. in fact they like vivek ramaswamy better. he is giving that 10% gimmick but i've listened to a lot of maga media. i listen to the candace owens show for a whole month for a bulwark article and they love vivek. this is an outsider who doesn't like the gop establishment, is not into the war in ukraine, not into vaccines. that's the kind of person that the gop base is looking for. and ron desantis is the kind of person who is a bunch of rich guys in chicago in new york are looking for. >> and the risk of being premature, the fact that he is firing, i think they fired at least 50 and as many as 80

campaign staffers on the desantis campaign, that happened once upon a time in mccain land, i think, in 2000. but is this anything but a swirling of the drain for desantis? when you have no measurable retail, skill and retail politicking, when you have no donor base, when your poll numbers are decreasing the more people learn about you and see you, is there anywhere to go but out? >> i was on the mccain campaign, as well, so i have a lot of experience with the campaigns. john mccain was very different candidate. going much smaller, going more intimate, spending more time with voters, trying to get momentum that way, that fit john mccain. it is style. it doesn't really fit ron desantis. he doesn't seem to enjoy talking to voters. let gone be wrong, it's hard to see how that works.

that said, the one reason why i'm not totally ready to put up his grave stone is that at some point, it wasn't that long ago, that 30 or 40% of the electorate said they wanted him, that he did well in florida with republican voters and so if something happens to donald trump, he has a lot of indictments out there. he eat a lot of well done cheeseburgers. ron desantis i don't think has totally lost that connection that he had to at least a certain part of the republican base, it's just not enough of the republican base to take on donald trump if he continues to stay strong, in as strong a position as he's an among republican primary voters. >> the x-factor here, which is to say, maybe the only factor, is donald trump. i was talking to my former colleague and your, i don't know, someone you have worked with in the recent past and he said it kind of doesn't even matter what else happens with

these other candidates, because the only thing right matters right now is donald trump's survival in this race. now there are no signs that he's going anywhere. we are talking about the looming federal indictments and the cheeseburgers, but the fact of the matter is, the base is with him, like, 80%, and until that changes, until there is a black swan event, they are about details, are they not? >> that's right. he's getting stronger and it's all, it's not like there are fantasy candidates. tim scott, glenn youngkin, or any other the republican voters talking about is going to do any better than ron desantis. ron desantis the other part of his policy is don trump. as long as donald trump remains in this position, we are staring down the barrel of a donald trump nomination. >> almost certainly. tim miller, thanks for these your insight tonight. as always, and going back in the annals of various

republican campaigns, there's no person with no more experience than you. that is our show for tonight. now it's time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. >> good evening, lawrence. i was what >> good evening alex. i was walking down the hallway listening to your show in a hurry and i thought, and police clearly's up for me, i thought i heard chuck rosenberg accuse you of multiple bank robberies and counterfeiting money. >> yes. >> so i have to rewind to clarify what that was all about? >> i mean, the truth has finally come out, where a modern-day pop bodying clyde. he was just positing, multi about different scenarios in which he would want immunity deals and the plot got, the imaginary plot, i will say, lawrence, got quite elaborate, with me in chuck rosenberg capable of all kinds of misdeeds and wrongdoing. i have to say, i kind of like thesc