o'connor takes us off the air tonight. and on that note, i wish you all a very good and safe night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late with me. i will see you at the end of tomorrow. [silence] >> late last night, at nearly midnight, former president trump's attorney, rudy giuliani, stopped contesting that he lied about the 2020 election. he waved the legal version of a white flag, specifically, mr. giuliani stopped contesting the claim that he made false statements about two georgia election workers, ruby freeman inter daughter. shaye moss.

>> ruby freeman and shaye freeman moss, and one other gentlemen, quite obviously, surreptitiously, passing around usb ports as if they are vials of heroin or cocaine. >> after the 2020 election, giuliani used this video to push a conspiracy theory that, somehow, with usb sticks and secret boxes of ballots, ruby freeman and moss had helped to steal the election from donald trump in georgia. in trump's infamous call, pressuring georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger to find him nearly 12,000 votes, trump himself brought up ruby freeman, and he brought her up 18 times. he called her a professional scammer, and a hustler. to this day, you can still find that video, pushing baseless conspiracies about freeman and moss. you can still find it on trump's official youtube page. none of the allegations against ruby freeman and shaye moss are

true. they were doing their jobs, they broke no laws. the illicit thing that they passed each other was not a usb stick. it was a ginger mint. so, when mr. giuliani made his major concession last night, no longer contesting that he lied about moss and freeman in a defamation case against him -- when he did, that it was national news. and now, today, mr. giuliani is saying that this latest ad mission was not actually an admission at all. giuliani released a video tonight explaining that he isn't actually admitting that he lied. he is just no longer contesting that he lied in this specific court case so that it can move forward. in other words, giuliani did not want to have to prove he wasn't lying in court. i wonder why. so, he's just going to stop contesting the facts. and the facts are, giuliani lied about ruby freeman and shaye moss. but don't get the man wrong.

don't miss quote him. three years later, he's apparently somehow still sticking by the lies that he told about these election officials, despite the profound damage that those lies have done. >> there is no where i feel safe. nowhere. do you know how it feels to have the president of the united states target you? >> i have gained about 60 pounds. i just don't do anything anymore, i don't want to go anywhere. i second guess everything that i do. it's affected my life in a major way. everywhere. every way. all because of lies. >> around the week of january 6th, the fbi informed me that i needed to leave my home for safety. >> i received a call from my

grandmother saying that there were people at her home, and they -- you know, knocked on the door. of course, she opened it at my seeing who was, there who it was, and they just started pushing their way through claiming that they were coming in to make a citizens arrest. they need to find me and my mom, they knew we were there. >> there were other election workers shown in that state -- video, and their supervisors. how many are still election workers in fulton county? >> there are no permanent election worker or supervisor in a video that is still there. >> did you end up leaving your position as well? >> yes, i left. >> the damage is done. ruby freeman and shaye moss aren't just facts in a defamation case they can be conceded two and skipped over, they are real people. in many ways, these two women are just the tip of the iceberg.

miss freeman and miss moss are emblematic of the real harm that giuliani's and trump's baseless claims of election fraud brought to election workers all across the country. we're going to play some clips now that are fairly disturbing. so, if you want to mute your tv or if you want to cover your kids ears, now is your chance. this is a sampling of the kind of vitriol that has been aimed at election officials thanks to the lies propagated by president trump and his associates. >> time is running out, richard. we are coming after you and every mother [bleep] that stole the election with our second amendment. subpoenas be dammed. you're going to be served lead you [bleep] anomie communist caulk sucker. you will be served lead. >> it's all gone too far. all of it.

-- asked for chris krebs, the patriot -- to be shot. a 20 something tech in -- county today has death threats and a noose -- hunt for treason because -- transferring a report on batches from ems to a county computer so he could read it. it has to stop. >> one night -- one night in december 2020 i was about to put my son to bed, when dozens of individuals descended upon our home. growing in numbers over the course of an hour, they stood outside my front door, waking my neighbors, shouting obscenity's and graphic threats and bullhorns. to this day, these images and memory of that evening still haunt me. there is an omnipresent feeling of anxiety and dread that permeates our daily lives and those of our families. not long ago, my son, standing in our driveway picked up a stick, turned to me and said,

don't worry mom, if the bad guys come again, i'll get them with this. he's six years old. >> threats and harassment, like that, have become a regular occurrence for election workers and election officials, all across the united states. i like shea moss and ruby freeman, that means a lot of them just choose not to return to their jobs. the brennan center for justice pulled election officials across the country, and found that turnover is so high that when the 2024 election comes around, more than 20% of local election officials might have to be new recruits those are people that have never administer presidential elections before. in key swing states, the effect of these election lies and accusations of fraud were even more acute. last year, the boston globe actually quantified it. in michigan, nearly 27% of county level election officials have left their posts. in wisconsin, 30% are gone. in georgia, 36% have quit.

in arizona, 37% are gone. in pennsylvania, 39% are no longer on the job. almost 40% of county election officials in the state that determined the final outcome of the 2020 presidential election, almost 40% of them have quit. that's the toll taken by these lies. thank you, mr. giuliani for sort of maybe admitting you had lied, but just in court, to a move case along and not lie. the damage quite clearly has been done. how do we as a country clean at this mess? joining me now is the secretary of state from michigan, jocelyn benson, the chief elections official for that state. secretary benson, thanks so much for being here. i would like to get your reaction to this. i think we can call it a

concession on the part of mr. giuliani did these claims about the two election workers were baseless. >> i don't even know if i would go so far as to say that it's a concession. the way outside of the court documents, he continued to walk back what he said. none of his capitulation's or dancing in this moment or any other change the reality and history, did he and others lied about an election causing dire consequences to the lives of professional election administrators in the process. people showed up outside my home two days, three days after mayor giuliani, rudy giuliani, had showed up at our state capitol in lansing telling lies about our elections. shea and ruby moss are amazing women and represent the stories of so many untold election workers who have left their jobs because of these threats that come in many ways from

these very loud voices and continue to do so. question is, will there be consequence for the violence and the threats? throughout these lies, i certainly hope so. but as my colleague gabe sterling said, over three years ago, almost three years ago, this needs to stop. also, we need to stop seeing mike lindell and so many others out there, including presidential candidates and u.s. senators, spreading these lies to for their political gain, because it has real life consequences to the men and women whose job it is to make democracy work for everyone. >> yeah, on that note it's not just giuliani and trump, right, it's not limited to an administration that's intent on clinging to power, this is now the de facto position of the ruling party, to suggest that there was fraud in the 2020 election, and could be in future elections. this is the position of presidential candidates. no one is out there telling the truth. and so, i wonder, given as we're on the precipice of a potential federal indictment of the former president on january

six charges, or charges to interfere with the 2020 election, do you think that can have the effect that it potentially needs to have, which is a amelia terrific effect to reverse the decay, the wrought that has penetrated some of these institutions in terms of public confidence. do you think the toothpaste, for a lack of a better metaphor, can be put back in the tube? >> i think two things will result. certainly the accountability is a really important affirmation of the truth. when we are going through all of this in the fall of 2020, i remember the days in which we were up against the federal government. the president of the united states was coming after us, it felt, and his most ardent supporters, for just doing our jobs and doing nothing wrong. we could help the fact that he lost two presidential elections. our goal is to make sure everybody can vote, and then tell the truth. so, we always had these moments, my team, where we sort of recognized, you know, we may lose this battle over democracy. we may use it in the future.

but the courts are the ones that help align and demand the truth be told. and that's why this concession today, or last night, is so critical. it shows that you can't lie in the court of law. you can, perhaps, lie aside of the four seasons gardening or reena or of that press conference was meant to be held. you can't line a court of law. the more we see legal cases brought forward pushing for the truth, whether it's criminal charges or defamation charges, it helps us get to a point where we have an official affirmation of what is fact or false. the other thing that i will mention, what we have lived through over the last three years, at the same time we have seen pain in our democracy, people losing their jobs or walking away from the work. we have also seen an influx of so many americans on both sides of the aisle who know the truth, who know the courage that it took to defend the truth and are standing with us and serving as election workers, volunteering his coworkers for future elections because they believe in the process. in many ways, that gives me hope that we can emerge from this moment. it's a stronger elections

process than ever before. >> on that note, does it worry you that up to a fifth of election workers in the 2024 presidential race might be new, not having any administrative experience in what is sure to be a contested election or at least a very fraught election given the percentage of one of the leading candidates. >> certainly. the turnover is concerning. it also provides us with an opportunity to recognize that over half of those election officials who have lived through 2020 going back again in 2024. we are ready, why isn't, and strengthened to protect the process. we are train those that are coming in as new election officials to be proud of this work. to stand with the truth and will of the people, whatever it might be. i we've gone through these last few years here in michigan, learning how to take these challenges and making them opportunities. i think that that's what you'll

see, i believe, unfolding in 2024. if americans all across the country to join with us and stand up to be part of the process and push back against the lies. >> i mean, i think a lot of people appreciate the optimism of your position, which is that people are flooding the zone as it were, when democracy was being threatened, people aren't averting their eyes. they're coming and raising their hands there to volunteer and save it. on that note, in less than a more craven chapter of strengthening democracy, the republican party appears to understand that it isn't good electoral politics to turn people off of early voting, mail-in voting, absentee balloting. the rnc is launching a new campaign featuring donald trump of all people and urging republicans to vote early. it's not the same thing is donald trump saying the 2020 election wasn't stolen but it is something. i wonder what you make of that, and b, if you're at all optimistic that donald trump somehow can encourage people to come back, to come back home

again. to the institutions that were set up there were thus far unparalleled in terms of the integrity. >> look, i want everyone everywhere to take advantage of all of the options that they have to vote in their states and communities. look at the one opening and most convenient for you, no matter where you live or have, or participate in the democracy. as far as the former president and others now are embracing early voting, great, i would like to see him also be talking about how secure it is, how secure ballot drop boxes are. how we can trust the results of the election. let's take that one step further. you're not just endorsing the process, but overriding the past lies by telling the truth about the security of our elections. the security of our early voting and reliability of the machines and results in a paper ballot election. if we see that, then we will have more cause for optimism. we also have to remember that its neighbors and everyday citizens that can be the the arbiters of truth and truth tellers in their communities.

even if you don't get that from candidates and politicians. it is incumbent upon all of us to learn the facts and truth about our elections and spread that to our neighbors, to our fellow parishioners, to our colleagues all around the country. if we can do that as citizens, then we can fight back against the lies together. >> michigan secretary of state joscelyn benson, it's so great to get a view from the state, and especially the state that has been through so much as it concerns the 2020 election. thank you greatly for your time tonight. i really appreciate it. >> thank you for having me. >> we have a lot more to get to this evening. if you found the breathless headlines about hunter biden's plea deal collapsing, if you find those breathless headlines somewhat confusing, you are not alone. we will get into what actually happened and what it all means, coming up next. plus, watch what happens when nbc reporter asks trump's former chief of staff mark meadows whether he is

cooperating with the special counsel's investigation into january 6th. stick around for that. with downy infusions, let the scent set the mood. feel the difference with downy.

♪ limu emu & doug ♪ what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. now you get out there, and you make us proud, huh? ♪ bye, uncle limu. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

>> woman: why did we choose safelite? only pay for what you need. >> vo: for us, driving around is the only way we can get our baby to sleep, so when our windshield cracked, we needed it fixed right. we went to safelite.com. there's no one else we'd trust. their experts replaced our windshield, and recalibrated our car's advanced safety system. they focus on our safety... so we can focus on this little guy. >> everyone condemned what >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪

happened in terms of the breach of security on the capitol on january 6th. >> certain -- trying to feed the narrative that the january 6th committee wants to move forward. i can condemn what happened at january 6th, but i'm not going to be intimidated. >> for nearly one full year after the attack on the capitol, trump's former chief of staff mark meadows was more than happy to go on right-wing tv to talk about january 6th and slamm the house committee investigating it.

but then last summer, after the committee committee released bombshell testimonies from meadows white house aide cassidy hutchinson, the former chief of staff suddenly went quiet. >> i'm not commenting on anything that relates to the president running or january 6th. >> have you spoken to cassidy hutchinson before her testimony? >> as i said, i don't comment on anything about january 6th, guys. >> that was a year ago. since then, mr. meadows has had to deal with more than just a congressional committee. a judge ordered him to testify to the federal grand jury investigating january six, as well as trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election. and in the days within weeks since then, mark meadows has sort of disappeared. and that radio silence has led to rumors that mark meadows may have flipped on his former boss. which brings us to today, when mr. meadows refused to even say the words january 6th. >> have you testified before

the grand jury? >> you know, i don't talk about anything january 6th related. >> do you think it's appropriate for the investigation? >> at least one former federal prosecutor says that meadows silence speaks volumes. >> what i will say in watching that video is that looks to me like somebody who's cooperating with the federal government. >> joining us now is mary mccord, former acting assistant attorney general for the national security at the department justice, and coast of the amazon beseeched gets prosecuting donald trump. mary, thank you for being here. and mary, can you enlighten those of us who have never done this before, what is like when a witness flips and starts cooperating with investigators? >> so, oftentimes in an investigation, particularly where conspiracies one of the charges being considered, prosecutors will really try to reach out to potential -- you know, coconspirators who

face their own criminal culpability, who potentially might themselves be indicted. and if what they have to provide to the government is significant enough and is good enough evidence that it is so useful to a prosecution of the other coconspirators, they will sometimes offer a cooperation agreement. that cooperation agreement can mean that the person will have to plead guilty to something, but it will probably be lesser charges than he other white my face if you are an indicted. and in turn, in pleading guilty to lesser charges and giving testimony against those who end up being indicted, the government will then also add sentencing filed by what's called a five k letter, which is a substantial of cistern's letter, saying to the judge this cooperator provided substantial assistance to the government, and, therefore should get a lesser sentence, and in fact, a sentence that might even be below what the guidelines range is. now, sometimes if the person's

testimony and evidence is so valuable, prosecutors might even decide not to require the person to plead guilty to anything, and simply say if you provide truthful testimony, and we believe it's truthful, and you cooperate fully and completely, we won't charge you at all. and so, oftentimes when there are multiple people who are being investigated, and there's, you know, some information that's publicly known that would suggest that they all have culpability, when one person suddenly, you know, stops talking, like we've seen with mr. meadows, that, you know, puts out sort of, you know, the spidey sense among other prosecutors, and sometimes members of the public that that person is cooperating. >> well, yeah, and i feel that's exactly what's happening here, right. here's mr. talk-y talk-y on fox news, who then, by the way, gave some important text to the january 6th committee, although senate does not want to talk about, it is not seen in around the circles he is normally seen in, and doesn't want to see the

worst january 6th anymore. do you feel like meadows would be a valuable cooperating witness? i mean, i say, that i know the answer to that. but in which ways do you think he could actually be very perilous for donald trump, specifically? >> well, i would throw one caution. i would think even if he wasn't cooperating, if i was his attorney and i thought he was potentially going to be indicted, i would've also told him keep your mouth shut. like, no more public comments. so, you know, you can have another interpretation of this. but getting to your question, you know, mr. meadows was one of the people with the closest and most access to donald trump in the period between the election, november 3rd of 2020 and january 6th of 2021. he was in all of the most significant meetings. he was part of, you know, the calls in the pressure campaign on brad raffensperger, the secretary of state of georgia, to find the more than 11,000 votes that he needed in order to win georgia.

he was involved in communications with congressional members and state legislatures in the swing states where they were sort of pushing this idea that the legislature could come in and reverse the results in various states, and ultimately also pushing the fraudulent elector schemes, where the electors for trump when i hadn't met, voted, and sent their electoral ballots into vice president pence. he was part and parcel of all those things, but he was also write their hearing mr. trump, you know, every day, could really, i think, add a lot of important details to what we've already piece together from emails and texts and testimony that's come out in front of the house select committee. he could really, you know, flush out all the details, and be an extremely powerful witness against mr. trump, assuming that he appears credible. and you know, anytime there's a

cooperator that has something themselves to gain, that means they have a bias, they are trying to gain the favor of the government. and the jury gets instructed about that, and instructed the jury should weigh that, the fact that the person has a personal interest and their own biased toward benefiting themselves, that should be weighed in assessing the credibility of the witness. so, right now, are maybe prior to right now, that's part of what the prosecutors themselves are figuring out. does mark meadows come off as credible when he testifies? will a jury believe him? >> what about rudy giuliani? i mean, we had a sort of garbled position he's taking on ruby freeman and shaye moss, maybe conceding that his baseless claims were in fact baseless. does, does his position on that have any potential effect on jack smith, and that sort of halting the discovery process in that pro -- trials, does that have an effect on what jack smith is

trying to get out of rudy giuliani for his own january six investigation? >> so, i think that, obviously these things are completely separate and the declaration that mr. giuliani vowed to his attorneys last night does say that his concessions or admissions or stipulations are limited solely to that case. and what he really did is he do this as a no contingency. there is evidence that would support that these were defamatory per se, and they were knowingly false. so, i think he is giving that up in that case. that cannot be used necessarily in jack smith case. they'd have to have litigation over that, and his attorneys tried to cabin that. i think that jack smith probably wanted to talk to mr. giuliani to find out, you know, just to sort of lock him into some things. but i personally would be extremely hesitant if i are prosecuting this case to rely on mr. giuliani as a

cooperating witness, because i think there is the possibility that mark meadows might be credible, but mr. giuliani has lied so much to so many people about so many things that are easily proven false that i would be very reluctant to put that man on the stand. >> well, so far, it doesn't look like he has a deal. so, i think your assessment seems to be reflected in the thinking of the special counsel, as it has been reported thus far. mary mccord, co-host of the msnbc podcast prosecuting donald trump. thank you, mary, so much for your time tonight. >> sure. >> still to come this evening, former vice president mike pence still wants to qualify for the first republican presidential primary debate, badly. plus, what really went down when hunter biden appeared in court today. the explanation is coming up, next. the ♪ ♪ ♪ ne) you tried. limiting when it was okay.

no tech behind closed doors. but social media's algorithms of addiction always won out. it's not your fault. alone you can't stop it. together, we will. we have a plan. join us. ( ♪♪ ) he snores like an angry rhino. you've never heard an angry rhino. join us. baby i hear one every night. every night.

okay. i'll work on that. save up to $500 on the new sleep number® smart bed. plus, 60 month financing on most smart beds. shop now only at sleep number®.

book a work trip. earn onekeycash. shake some hands. do not forget to laugh. [laughing] book a get-away-from-work trip. use onekeycash. order some sides. do not disturb. join one key to earn and use rewards across expedia, hotels.com, and vrbo. we used to struggle with greasy messes. now, we just freak, wipe, and we're done! with mr. clean clean freak, conquering messes is that easy. clean freak's mist is three times more powerful, and it works on contact. clean freak, just freak, wipe, done. ♪ ♪ ♪

>> several years ago, while donald trump was still president, the department of justice opened an investigation into hunter biden, the son of presidential candidate joe biden. president trump was apparently unaware of that investigation, and was reportedly livid, when days after losing that election it was hunter biden himself who announced that he was under federal investigation related

to a tax case. trump perhaps understood this to be a missed opportunity. anyway, the doj investigation continued, and under joe biden 's presidency, hunter biden was charged with two misdemeanors for failing to pay his taxes on time in 2017 and 2018. biden is also facing a separate charge for failing to disclose he was using drugs when he bought a gun back in 2018. and so, after all of these years was poised to conclude today as biden's lawyers entered a delaware court, ready to plead guilty to the tax charges. now, the guilty plea was part of an agreement reached with the prosecuting charged sophistication, the prosecutor who was a trump appointee. that agreement stated that hunter biden would not be prosecuted for the gun charge if he abided certain conditions. experts say this was a fairly standard deal. but it fell apart today, at least temporarily, over a question about the terms of the agreements.

the judge also asked both sides about the scope of the immunity, which was a good question to ask, given that trump and a lot of other republicans are running on a promise to prosecute hunter biden again, with or without evidence. joining us now is former u.s. attorney and senior fbi official chuck rosenberg. he's also an msnbc contributor. chuck, it's great to see you this evening. thank you, in advance, for helping clear up what exactly went down in delaware today. the first -- i mean, i think a lot of people understand that this plea deal had been worked on for quite some time now. so, how exactly did it fall apart in the courtroom at the last minute? and how unusual is that? >> yeah, it's unusual. i mean, plea agreements happen all the time, every day in every federal courthouse around the country, alex. and every now and, then they hit a snag. it's unusual, but not unheard of. when it happens in a high profile case, of course, we're paying more attention. so, what happened here, there

seemed to be two problems. the first one was the judge was concerned that the pretrial diversion agreement gave her a role that she was uncomfortable with, not just adjudicating whether there was a breach or could be a breach of that provision down the road, but that it gave her some other decision making authority that she thought best left to the executive branch. now, we haven't seen the plea documents. i don't know precisely what the language is. we don't know precisely what considered her. but that seems to be snag numbered to -- number. weinstein number two is what you just referred to. how broadly the government would confer how broadly with the government -- paid guilty for other crimes. happy to talk about either. they're both important. i do think however, alex, that they will be resolved and this will ultimately go forward. >> do you think those two snags are sort of political at their root? i would imagine, if you are hunter biden's team, resting

any power or privilege with the executive branch is chancey, right, depending on who the executive's. and the same is true for other parts for your deferring to potential doj investigations down the line when, oh, i don't know, donald trump could be president again. do you think that's at the root of the concern here, that biden's folks are worried that this could be the new benghazi, where hunter biden is, you know, investigated exhaustively, despite whatever evidence might not exist? >> yeah, i imagine there are concerns or not with this prosecutor or this administration. but to your larger point, the reason a defendant would want broad immunity from other prosecutions is because, well, in this case, if mr. trump wins the presidency, he's vowed to go after what he calls the biden crime family. i think that's a deeply offensive and reckless statement, but it has to resonate with hunter biden. and so, when a defendant pleads

guilty, they're looking for immunity from crimes that the government knows about, that it has investigated. they want some assurance that this chapter in their life has closed. the government, of course, wants to confer a more narrow immunity. let me give you an example, if i may, alex, let's say you and i are out robbing banks across the country, and we rob tan, and the governor knows about all ten, and yet i plead guilty to three those, they are going to promise us they're not gonna prosecute us the additional seven. that's typical. but maybe they don't know that you and i are also counterfeiting currency. know that you anso, the government wouldnt agree to unionize us as part of our plea agreement for stuff they don't know about. and that was one of the issues today, how broad is the immunity that the government going to confer on mr. biden if he pleads guilty? and of course, mr. biden's thinking not just about this attorney general and this president and this administration, but what might happen to him if mr. trump

regains the presidency. >> well, and indeed, those concerns seem well founded, given the fact that members of congress speaking today, republicans, including nancy mace, saying that the dissolution of this plea deal opens some doors here and gives us a little more fuel behind what we're doing. they've suggested that there could be an impeachment inquiry regarding hunter biden and joe biden's alleged role in some of the financial misdeeds, though there has been no actual evidence to that and. i mean, how unusual is it to have members of congress making statements about federal investigations like this? >> yeah, i've gone through much of my adult life, alex, not paying any attention to what members of congress say. >> [laughter] >> and i mean that in a bipartisan sense. i don't think it matters at all to the prosecutors here. it may matter in some quarters. it may matter in politics. it may matter for fund raising. but to prosecutors, i can assure you, it doesn't matter at all and they don't pay attention to it. so, it's an unusual case

because it's a high profile case. most cases, as i mentioned, do resolved by plea agreement. occasionally, they hit snags. but what republicans or democrats or anyone has to say about it, frankly, doesn't mean very much at all. >> [laughter] okay, and we're going to leave it on that note. chuck rosenberg, thank you for making the time. tonight we appreciate it. >> my pleasure. >> still to come, while mike pence still hasn't found enough small donors to qualify for the republican presidential debate stage, florida governor ron desantis is doing better, sort of. look slain. coming up. ♪ ♪ ♪ then before you know it, (it is a life changer...) you make your first sale. small business first. never stopped coming. (we did it!) and you have a partner that always puts you first way. (no way!) start today at godaddy.com.

amazon has great deals on everything kids need. instead of spending more, he spent less. seemed obvious. why would a person spend more money? he's eight and he gets it. i'm 10. well, that's less impressive. >> we're reaching out to people

all across the country who share our vision, our conservative values, and even encouraging people to go to mikepence2024.com and donate a dollar to get this on that stage. >> even $1 at mikepence 2024.com will make sure we get on that stage. >> even $1. [laughter] although i want to emphasize you can give a lot more, would be a help tonight. >> go to mikepence2024. com, donate even $1. you'll help us get on that debate stage in a month. >> if you have seen presidential candidate mike pence lately, then you have heard him pleading for cash. because the republican who recently served as the vice president of the united states has still not qualified for the first republican presidential debate in milwaukee next month.

vice president pence has run into trouble reaching a key benchmark to qualify for a spot on that debate stage, getting at least 40,000 individual donors. public service, name recognition, serving the second highest elected position in the country, putting your life on the line to certify election results, still can't buy you 40,000 people willing to give your campaign $1. so far at least seven of pence 's republican rivals have announced they have qualified to appear on the stage. donald trump, ron desantis, vivek ramaswamy, nikki haley, tim scott, chris christie, and governor doug burgum of north dakota. for candidates like ramaswamy and burgum, it turns out that close to zero name recognition can indeed buy you 40,000 people who are willing to give your campaign $1, particularly when you literally try to buy those people off. governor burgum offered 20 -dollar gift certificates to the first 50,000 donors who gave at least $1, and mr. ramaswamy offered his donors a

10% cut of money that they raised for his campaign. just like avon, only instead of getting commission for selling eye shadow, vivek ramaswamy has been offering people a commission on the money they raised for vivek ramaswamy. and now, mr. ramaswamy and governor burgum have secured their spots at the debate and a bunch of supporters have a lot of gift cards. former vice president mike pence, however, continues to try and get their the old-fashioned way, with endless appeals on conservative media. when we come back, what the rnc's criteria for the small dollar donations tells us about the race as it stands right now. that is next.

>> woman: why did we choose safelite? we were loading our suv when... crack! safelite came right to us, and we could see exactly when they'd arrive with a replacement we could trust. that's service the way we want it. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪

♪♪ when you have chronic kidney disease... there are places you'd like to be. like here. and here. not so much here. if you have chronic kidney disease, farxiga can help you keep living life. ♪ farxiga ♪ and farxiga reduces the risk of kidney failure, which can lead to dialysis. farxiga can cause serious side effects including dehydration, urinary tract or genital yeast infections in women and men, and low blood sugar. ketoacidosis is a serious side effect that may lead to death. a rare life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking farxiga and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this bacterial infection, an allergic reaction, or ketoacidosis. farxiga can help you keep living life. ask your doctor for farxiga for chronic kidney disease.

if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. ♪ farxiga ♪ mr. clean magic eraser powers through tough messes. so it makes it look like i spent hours cleaning! and you know i didn't. it makes my running shoe look like new. it's amazing! wow, it makes it look like... i don't have kids at all. it's so good, it makes it look like i have magical powers! with 80% less scrubbing, mr. clean magic eraser makes cleaning easy. also available in sheets! ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ new double chicken chopped salads.

♪ the new summer family meal. starting at $24. only at el pollo loco.

♪ ♪ ♪ >> okay, take a look at this. this is a graph showing the share of fundraising from small dollar donors to republican 2024 presidential candidates in the first two quarters of this year. donald trump is the leading candidate. 82% of trump's total fundraising comes from individual contributors, from small dollar donors. those are people who gave $200 or less. those are the kind of donors who are typically able to donate more than once. they also happen to give us pretty good indication of the grassroots enthusiasm that is out there. now the enthusiasm for trump is evident, despite his considerable legal peril. and then there is biotech entrepreneur vivek ramaswamy, the one offering a 10% commission to donors donated she is a campaign. he second on this list with nearly 56% of his fundraising coming from small dollar contributors. now small dollar donations also

tell us a lot about a campaign's long term viability and whether it has a base of sustaining donors who help keep it afloat in the long run. which brings me to ron desantis. 17% of his fundraising comes from those small dollar donations, which is, well, it raises some questions. joining me now to help answer them is tim miller, writer for the bulwark, also a communications director for jeb bush's 2016 presidential campaign, which, i remember well, and which we're gonna talk about in a second. but first, the small dollar donations, those numbers, to me, more than the diminishing poll numbers, seem like a considerable problem for the desantis campaign. do you read it that way? >> yeah, they sound really familiar. they look like the jeb bush numbers. i don't remember what our percentage was, but we it was probably close to 17. and we all know how that turned out, me more than most. here's the problem, desantis

was always good to be the golden boy of the donor class, the big donors, the rich donors, because they was always going to be in the thought that he was going to be the person that could save them from donald trump. he was maga enough that the rank-and-file voters would like but he wouldn't do all the crazy stuff that donald trump did. they could trust him to advance conservative policies and economic issues. it has turned out that the voters have a say in that and they don't like the candidate that was put out by the republican donor class, the rank and file backed voters. in fact they like vivek ramaswamy better. he is doing that 10% gimmick but i've listened to a lot of maga media. i listened to the candace owens show for a whole month for a bulwark article and they love vivek. this is an outsider who doesn't like the gop establishment, is not into the war in ukraine, not into vaccines. that's the kind of person that the gop base is looking for. and ron desantis is the kind of person who a bunch of rich guys

in chicago and new york are looking for. >> at the risk of being premature, the fact that he is firing, i think they fired at least 50, and as many as 80, campaign staffers on the desantis campaign. that happened once upon a time in mccainland, i think, in 2000. but is this anything but a swirling of the drain for desantis? when you have no measurable retail, skill at retail politicking, when you have no donor base, when your poll numbers are decreasing the more people learn about you and see you, is there anywhere to go but out? >> i was on the mccain campaign, as well, so i have a lot of experience with the campaigns. john mccain was very different candidate. going much smaller, going more intimate, spending more time with voters, trying to get momentum that way, that fit john mccain. it is style. it doesn't really fit ron desantis.

he doesn't seem to enjoy talking to voters. let gone be wrong, it's hard to see how that works. that said, the one reason why i'm not totally ready to put up his grave stone is that at some point, it wasn't that long ago, that 30 or 40% of the electorate said they wanted him, that he did well in florida with republican voters and so if something happens to donald trump, he has a lot of indictments out there. you know, it's a lot of weldon cheeseburgers. ron desantis, i don't think, has totally lost that, you know, connection he had to at least a certain part of the ruling base. it just isn't enough of the republican base to take on donald trump, if he continues to stay strong, in a strong position as he's in a among republican primary voters. >> yeah, well, i mean, tim, the x-factor here, which is to say, maybe the only factor, is donald trump.

i mean, we were -- i was talking to my former colleague and your former -- your current -- i don't know, you call them your current colleagues, some of you have worked with in the recent past, zhang howell, and he said it doesn't even matter what happens with these other candidates, because the only thing that matters right now is donald trump's survival in this race. and right, now there is no signs that he's going anywhere. i know we're talking about the looming federal indictments and the cheeseburgers, but the fact of the matter is the base is with him, like, 80%. until that changes, until there is a black swan event, they are but details, are they not? >> that's right. he's getting stronger. and you know, as i always said, it's all about trump. it's not like any of these other fantasy candidates. it's not like tim scott, or glenn youngkin, or anybody else in the republican donor class is talking to come in and do any better than ron desantis. ron desantis, part of his problem is his own personality in his campaign, but the other part the problem is donald trump. as long as donald trump remains the best position, you know, we're staring down the barrel of a donald trump nomination.

>> almost certainly. tim miller, thank you so much for your insight tonight, my friend, as always. and going back in the annals of [laughter] failed republican campaigns, there is no person with more experience than you, tim. it's great to see you. that is our show for tonight. now, it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. is>> good evening lawrence,. >> good evening, alex. you know, i was walking down the hallway kind of half listen to your show in a hurry, and i thought, and please clear this up for me, i thought i heard chuck rosenberg accuse you of multiple bank robberies and counterfeiting money. >> [laughter] yes. >> do i have to rewind to clarify what that was all about? >> i mean, the truth has finally come out, where a modern-day bonnie and clyde. he was just positing, multi -- we will talk about various scenarios in what you would want immunity deals. and the, the plot thought, the