donate back to them. doug burgum was giving out gift cards for voters to vote for him. pence has a little more time to do it, and he better start tonight. >> nbc news national politics reporter jonathan allen, our thank you gift card en route to you. appreciate you being with us this morning. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" on this friday morning and all week long. "morning joe" starts right now. he is looking at charges with 20 year maximums, even though that's not the real world sentencing. he is looking at spending a big chunk of time in prison if he goes forward. they have him down to center if he does not cooperate. what do they get if they does cooperate? he is putting trump front and center in this scheme to obstruct. >> that is former u.s. attorney joyce vance describing the legal

predicament for a mar-a-lago maintenance worker, now a co-defendant in trump's classified documents case. we will go through a big, new development there in just a moment. also ahead, the white house responds to questions about whether president joe biden would consider a pardon for his son after hunter biden's plea deal fell apart earlier this week. plus, another unsettling moment in the senate with an aging lawmaker. we'll show you what happened with senator dianne feinstein yesterday. meanwhile, the republican controlled house takes an early recess, leaving a big slate of unfinished business and not a whole lot of time to get it done when they come back in six weeks. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, july 28th. i'm willie geist. with us, we have the host of "way too early" and white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. former chairman of the republican national committee, michael steele. former white house director of communications to president obama, jennifer palmieri.

former attorney and fbi official chuck rosenberg. and legal correspondent ken dilanian. great group this morning. trump awaits a likely indictment for the overturning of the january 6th election results. he was hit with charges in a separate case yesterday. in the southern district of florida, federal prosecutors added two new counts of obstruction and one of willfully retaining national defense information in the case centered around his mishandling of classified documents at mar-a-lago. those new charges laid out in a superseding indictment which alleges trump directed two employees at his palm beach estate to destroy security camera footage shortly after the justice department issued a subpoena to obtain the same video in june of last year. one of the employees, trump's valet, walt nauta, was previously charged with trump.

now, property manager carlos d. alevera was charged in yesterday's indictment. the two men walked with a flashlight during a dark tunnel in mar-a-lago to scope out a room where boxes of classified documents were being watched by security cameras. few days later, de oliveira allegedly told another employee, quote, the boss wanted security footage from that room deleted. as for the other charge, that one involves a meeting from last august at trump's property in bedminster, new jersey. there, the former president allegedly showed off a classified document about possible attack plans for iran to people who were doing interviews for his former chief of staff, mark meadows', upcoming memoir. that conversation, you'll remember, was captured on an audio tape that was leaked last month. >> with milley -- let me see that, i'll show you an example -- he said that i wanted

to attack iran. isn't it amazing? i have a big pile here. this thing just came up, look. this was him. they presented me this. this is off the record, but they presented me this. this was him. this was the defense department and him. >> wow. >> we looked at some. this wasn't done by me, this was him. all sorts of stuff. pages long, look. wait a minute, let's see here. >> yeah. >> isn't that amazing? this totally wins my case, you know. except it is, like, highly confidential. >> yeah. >> by the way, isn't that incredible? >> yeah. >> i was just saying, because we were talking about it, and he said, "he wanted to attack iran" and -- >> he said you did. >> this was done by the military and given to me. um, i think we can probably -- right? >> we'll have to see. yeah, we'll have to try to -- >> declassify it.

>> yeah. >> since president, i could have declassified it, and now i can't. >> we have a problem. >> that's audio of the meeting at bedminster in new jersey. in total now with the superseding indictment, trump is charged with 40 counts in the classified documents case. he and nauta pleaded not guilty to their previous charges. a lawyer for de oliveira, the property manager, declined to comment. a trial date is tentatively set for 2024. chuck rosenberg, we were waiting for a different indictment involving the 2020 election and the efforts to overturn it. this goes back now to the mar-a-lago documents case. for our viewers, what is a superseding indictment, number one, and what do you read into the content of it? >> sure. number one, a superseding indictment is simply additional charges on an existing indictment. the first indictment of mr. trump and mr. nauta at

mar-a-lago for mishandling classified documents and obstructing the investigation was unsealed about a month ago or so, willie. they have now added charges to it. they've added another defendant, mr. de oliveira. that supersedes the first indictment, it replaces it. it has additional charges, and we call it a superseding indictment. what do i make of it? well, you know, it's sort of sad in a way. when i was a federal prosecutor, there were always lower level individuals. i can tell you, quite frankly, i didn't get any joy out of prosecuting them. my goal was always to enlist their cooperation, to have them tell the truth. you know, each of them come to a fork in the road where they can either tell the truth or they can lie. if they lie, if they obstruct justice, if they attempt, in this case, to delete security footage that has been subpoenaed by the department of justice,

prosecutors really don't have a choice other than to walk away, and they're not inclined to do that. that's how people like mr. nauta, a low level valet, and mr. de oliveira, a property manager, end up in a criminal indictment with mr. trump, the former president of the united states. here's what else i make of it. they made really bad choices when they decided to lie to the fbi and obstruct justice. it may not be too late for a good attorney to help each of them salvage it. they can still tell the truth, and they can still minimize any damage to themselves. whether or not that happens, willie, we'll see. >> so, ken dilanian, as you look through this superseding indictment, a new character is introduced, as chuck said. this is mr. de oliveira. he is 56 years old, the head of maintenance at mar-a-lago, a property manager, effectively there, who was pulled into all of this by donald trump. just last summer, june 22nd, 2022, when the doj emailed trump's attorneys a draft

subpoena, donald trump says, "okay, now i know the fbi, doj is coming for whatever i have here, and perhaps for security footage," setting in motion this process by which, ultimately, de oliveira tells the head of i.a. at mar-a-lago, "the boss," in his words, "wants this stuff deleted." you looked through this indictment. what else do you see in there? >> willie, let's take a pause on what you just said. it's just extrextraordinary. these allegations rival anything richard nixon was accused of. these are additional counts of obstruction of justice, and this indictment reads like a mafia case. here, you have -- again, these are allegations, and the burden of proof here is high. they don't have direct witnesses implicating trump, but this is a scheme to destroy evidence three days after a grand jury subpoena lands on mr. trump. it's mind boggling. as chuck said, it involves very low level employees whose lives

are about to be ruined unless they cut a deal with prosecutors. as for mr. nauta, there's no sign that he is going to do that. his lawyers are paid for by mr. trump. he's completely loyal. he's following mr. trump around. the other thing i think about these obstruction elements is that, you know, a lot of regular americans out there who don't follow this very closely, when they hear about the classified documents case, they have a hard time distinguishing what trump did from what joe biden and mike pence did, even though we all know that it is vastly different, right? all three men had classified documents in their possession. nobody has trouble, i think, differentiating these incredible obstruction of justice charges. everybody understands what it means to destroy evidence, particularly surveillance video evidence. i have to point out that there's no allegation in this new superseding indictment that they actually attempted to destroy the tapes. remember we read in "the new york times" about an episode where there was a flood and

there was concern that that was an attempt to destroy the footage? that's not in here. there's nobody that can directly put mr. trump in a room and testify, "i heard him say to destroy the tapes." it's all hearsay. it's employee number four saying, "i talked to carlos de oliveira, and that's what he said." what they'd really like, as chuck said, is mr. de oliveira to testify and tell the truth about his conversations with mr. trump. if you read this indictment, the obstruction is exthe record extraordinary. secondly, the mysterious document which we believe was a military plan -- well, the indictment now says, it was a military plan about options for attacking iran, donald trump said it didn't exist after the original indictment. the government has had it since trump turned over the first documents in 2022.

it's the subject of a tape you played and a devastating piece of evidence. this superseding indictment, it seems to me, strengthening this already very strong case. we were waiting around yesterday thinking the january 6th indictment was coming, so we're only at the beginning of really the third inning, i think, of the federal legal troubles for former president donald trump, willie. >> it really is astonishing, jonathan lemire. it has to be said, reading through this new indictment, it reads like something straight out of the gambino crime family, where they say, "the boss wants the tapes deleted." trump calling his head of maintenance, other people who work for him, who he knows are loyal to him and will do what he says, asking them to do things that get us to where we are now, bringing up federal charges. meeting in the bushes at mar-a-lago, discussing what to do, and after the feds come, checking on mr. de oliveira, the head of maintenance, to say, "we want to make sure carlos is good," in other words, he's not going to squeal to the feds. is he loyal to us? it is an extraordinary document.

>> an extraordinary document with so many parallels to a mafia investigation from those '60s and '70s, with the inclusion of an emoji also in there, saying, "hey, we're doing something secret, don't tell anybody," and using the shushing emoji. shows the quality of the henchmen for trump in this particular matter. michael steele, we're here in washington. there are tv trucks lined as far as the eye can see outside of the courthouse, with the belief the january 6th indictment is coming and coming soon. we don't know if it'll be this week, next, the week after. this is a reminding, the superseding indictment, that they already have donald trump seemingly dead to right on this case. a very serious case about america's most sensitive secrets. >> yes. >> and yet, and yet, and yet, he is leading the republican polls,

and it only grows. >> it will continue. i suspect once the january 6th indictment comes down, which everyone is anticipating, that will lock in a little bit more. the event in iowa tonight, where you have the presidential candidates -- i'm sure we'll talk about it later, you know -- parading in front of the iowa faithful to make their case, will not make their case against donald trump. they will make their case for everybody else but donald trump. why donald trump should not be the nominee. donald trump will come in and bemoan, berate, lie, claim victimhood, and the audience will eat it up. even though he lost iowa the last time, he may or may not be doing well there, it doesn't matter. wherever donald trump is, the conversation is not about the folks just in front of him, it's about a broader audience. so he knows events like today,

that we saw yesterday, events that may come today, tomorrow or next week, are all part of his ongoing narrative against the deep state, and why republicans need to stay hooked to him. because, as he reminds them, if it weren't for me, they'd be coming after you. >> yup. >> i'm your retribution. that narrative plays extremely well still despite all the evidence for that base. >> jen palmieri, up front, i'll give you the 2016 trigger warning, but it has to be pointed out that the entire criticism of hillary clinton and her email server, remember, was that she was wiping the server, that she deleted it with bleach bit software, deleting yoga appointments and chelsea's wedding. now, with this indictment, allegedly, the former president of the united states ordering his underlings at his beach club to delete a server. >> i mean, willie, when i heard, i was making dinner and heard the words, like, "delete,"

attributed to donald trump of "delete the server," it's so absurd. also, the hush emoji, the security footage, all of it seems so absurd, kind of bumbling, and then so serious when you see the iran -- you know, understanding that it was, in fact, a document related to u.s. possible plans of if there was ever conflict in iran, right? i think the details matter here. i'm with michael steele. i think there is little chance someone can overtake donald trump in the republican primary, but all the smart people in the republican primary who are trying to do that think that it has to start in iowa. there's some really damning details in here, and i've seen focus groups of iowa republican caucus-goers, where when they hear the details in the documents case, in particular, what was at stake, what he

risked, it had an impact on some people. their big lincoln dinner, you know, that's all happening in iowa. trump will be there. desantis will be there. most of the candidates will be there. this is the moment if you want to start making a real argument against him. maybe somebody will in that ballroom. i kind of doubt it, though. but, chuck, i want to ask you about co-conspirators. there are -- so trump is being charged along with two other defendants. they're considered co-conspirators. i know that that changes the rules of engagement here as far as what the -- how some of the evidence is being entered into the record, how it's treated and can impact trump. for example, when they say, "the boss wants this done," can you explain how that works? >> yeah, jennifer, it's a great

question. so when you charge a conspiracy and you have co-conspirators, there are rules of evidence that actually help the government at trial. for instance, jennifer, if you and i were robbing banks together, we're conspirators in bank robbery. what you say or what i say, if it's a statement made in furtherance of our conspiracy, to help it along, and if it is made during our conspiracy, can come in at trial against either one of us, both of us. so conspirator statements are a very powerful tool for the government at trial. as you noted, it gives the government an evidentiary advantage. plus, juries understand that criminals often act in concert with one another. so each conspirator can take on a different role. i can go to the bank with the gun, and you can drive the get away car. we're both responsible, jennifer, for the bank robbery,

even though we had different roles. conspiracy is a very powerful tool for agents and for prosecutors and confers on the government at trial evidentiary advantages. by the way, conspirators don't have to be indicted. they can be unindicted. we've seen that, too. as long as the grand jury in its indictment articulates who the conspirators are and what they did and what roles they took, it confers on the government, as i noted, a significant advantage at trial. >> ken dilanian, as we talk about the mob-like elements of this superseding indictment, the new one, at the very end, once they have confirmed that mr. de oliveira, the property manager, is, in fact, loyal to donald trump, that they don't have to worry about him, donald trump allegedly calls him and says, "i'll take care of ya. i'll get you a lawyer. don't worry about it." mr. de oliveira, i wouldn't hold your breath that donald trump can help you there.

let's look at the 2020 election. we've been looking for this all week. where does it stand this morning? >> yesterday was a very important day in that progression because donald trump's attorneys, we learned, traveled to jack smith's office in northeast washington, d.c., and had a meeting over there. sources familiar with that meeting tell us it was a standard final pitch from the defense, arguing that their client should not be indicted and that they didn't think it changed anything. so it's essentially a formality. so we expect that case, that indictment to come any time. you know, it's going to be far more significant than this documents case in terms of the threat to our democracy. as big a deal as the documents case is, the january 6th case is perhaps ten times as important. because as we believe it is going to be alleged, conspiracy to defraud the united states, a conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, the counting and certification of

electoral votes in a presidential election, and we believe, based on the witnesses who have come before the grand jury, the questions that have been asked, the scope of this investigation, that it is going to allege a vast conspiracy to keep donald trump in power and to subvert the result of an election. and, you know, you just can't overstate the significance of that. now, the grand jury typically meets on tuesdays and thursdays. if we see them come in today, we'll know that things are different and we should be watching for potential vote. if we don't see them come in, i would expect that next tuesday would be the next day we watch. that indictment could come next week. but we believe that it is coming fairly soon, willie. >> the fact of the matter, chuck, is we don't know, and we've been pretty up front about that all week. could be tuesday, could be thursday, or as ken says, they might come in today and meet in a different session. it appears inevitable at this point, does it not, an

indictment of the former president in that case? >> it does. for a couple of reasons, willie. first, we know that mr. trump got a target letter. let me explain that. a target is a putative defendant, someone likely to be charged. when i was a federal prosecutor, on occasion, not in all cases, but on occasion, i'd sent out a target letter. it's not a game, not a bluff. when a prosecutor sends a target letter, it means he or she intends to indict or at least ask the grand jury to indict the target. mr. trump has a target letter. you can assume, you should assume that an indictment is coming. when? i think ken is exactly right, soon. grand juries meet on tuesday and thursday. it can meet on other days, as well. i think it is inevitable. data point number two, mr. trump received a target letter in the mar-a-lago case, and within, oh, two weeks or so, was indicted on the classified documents portion of the investigation. so i think it is fair to say an

indictment is coming. i think it is fair to say an indictment is coming soon. mr. trump is a target. i want to echo one other thing that ken said because i think he is exactly right. the january 6th case is as compelling a criminal case as i have ever seen. it involves the attempts by a president at the time, now a former president, to thwart the peaceful transition of power in a democracy, to thwart the peaceful transition of power in a democracy. absolutely remarkable. so while the mar-a-lago case, the confidential -- the classified documents case is important and compelling, ken's right. what's coming next is far more important and far more compelling. it goes to the very heart of our democracy. >> wow. as compelling a case as i've ever seen, says chuck rosenberg. chuck, ken dilanian, great to have you both with us this morning to walk through all of

this. we really appreciate it. michael steele, we've talked, and you touched on it a minute ago, of the off-ramps republicans have been given by donald trump. you could take january 6th. you could take the indictments. take the indictment over stormy daniels. you have another chance here. it's worth asking republicans, worth asking the candidates running against him, worth asking house and senate republicans, "are you okay with what you see in this indictment? is this the guy you're going to get behind? because you're making a big statement if so." a guy who worked and pushed to overturn the 2020 election results in one case, or the guy who took nuclear secrets, who took war plans back with him to mar-a-lago, obstructed their return, and now we're learning these new allegations in a superseding indictment, like a mob boss, ordered his staff to go out and destroy evidence. are you okay with that? so far, the answer has been yes. >> and so, willie, my follow-up

to that would be, which i think is probably an even more important question, is why can't you let go? >> yeah. >> in light of everything you know, everything you've heard, everything you've read, presumably you've been reading these indictments with the rest of america. you've been watching what prosecutors have been doing and what they've been saying. why can't you let go? what is it about him that holds you so tightly to him that you can't let go? what would it take for you to let go and move on? no president in history, in history, has held the american people, but more importantly, the political leadership of the party so tightly. why can't you let go? what will it take? just tell us what it would take, and we will all do that thing. we'll help you let go. but they don't want to.

i think that's at a nub of it. there's too much money being made. there's too much grift going on. there's too much power at stake. it's too many things that they value much more than the constitution, the rule of law, the institutions that uphold this nation and keep it moving forward. that's why they won't let go. you know, i get the media and some in the political class who want to keep walking down the lane, whistling, thinking this is all going to turn out normal and it is going to be all okay. it ain't. it ain't. 2024 is going to be a "you know what" show on the behest and on the demands of donald trump. so, yeah, i don't think indictments, you know, or anything else are going to make this thing go away. i mean, what do you think? >> certainly, the general election is a different story. it is hard to imagine any of these indictments are helping donald trump with independent swing voters, those who may have broken for him in 2016, broke

against him in 2020. it is difficult to imagine a scenario where those people are persuaded that these are deep state conspiracies meant to get him and, therefore, he has earned their support yet again. but in the republican party, there is nothing, willie, that has shaken trump's hold on the majority of that party, on his base who is willing to go with him wherever he leads them. this next couple of days is going to be an interesting political moment. we have the superseding indictment. we have the january 6th coming soon. tonight, as we mentioned, all the republicans, save for chris christie, the one republican who is willing to take it to trump, he won't be there, but all the other republicans will be in iowa. do they say anything? odds are no. tomorrow, donald trump has a rally in the key battleground state of pennsylvania, a state he won in 2016, lost narrowly four years ago, and he is going to make the same claims again, that he is a victim and his followers are still with him. >> in fact, the effect of all these indictments has been just the opposite, his support has gone up as he paints himself the

victim. i encourage anyone, republican, democrat, independent considering a vote, read this superseding indictment. as ken dilanian said, it makes watergate look quaint. more coming up. the white house is leaning into yesterday's stronger than expected gdp number, as proof bidenomics, as they call it, is working. what the administration has to say. plus, some republicans are growing concerned about senator mcconnell following his potential health scare. we have more reporting on that ahead on "morning joe."

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that is a beautiful sight at 6:31 in the morning. the united states capitol, where some republican lawmakers this morning are telling nbc news they have concerned about senate minority leader mitch mcconnell and his health, and that they personally have witnessed change changes in the 81-year-old after he fell and sustained a concussion in march. the comments follow wednesday's incident when the kentucky republican froze for 19 seconds during a press conference before being escorted away from the cameras. none of the republicans are calling on mcconnell to step down yet, and senators next in line for the top job say they are not making succession plans at this time. but the murmurings underscore how the party is struggling to deal with the sensitive health issues of the longest serving party leader in american history. nbc news spoke with other republican lawmakers who stand behind mcconnell and say they have complete confidence in his

ability to lead their conference. >> he said he's fine. i take him at face value. you heard him respond to questions yesterday. he was very crisp in his answers. >> all i know is he is tough. he's been here a long time. >> he has a tremendous amount of support. everyone knows that with one hand tied behind his back, he's still a superior leader to so many people here. i think people still have a lot of confidence in him. >> i think it's maybe atigue. there's a lot going on. my head was spinning, too, trying to keep up with all things we are trying to get done in the next two, three months. >> mcconnell served since 1985. not up for re-election until the 2026 midterm elections. jonathan lemire, you have new reporting on how the white house is watching all this. obviously, president biden an old friend of senator

mcconnell's from the senate days. >> no question. the two men spoke this week after mcconnell's incident there. had a warm conversation i am told. the white house is watching this wearily. mcconnell has been a villain for democrats, but for this white house, he's become an important partner and a bulwark, if you will, holding back some of the more radical right-wing forces of republican lawmakers on capitol hill. also willing to keep mccarthy in check and, more importantly, willing to keep donald trump in check. the white house worried about what could come next. mcconnell not expecting to run for re-election, so the white house is preparing for what that could look like, a post mcconnell gop. if his health forces him to step away before them, and his team is saying that's not going to be the case, the dynamic could come sooner. you and i both know there are succession plans being discussed. >> oh, absolutely. >> talk to us about what that could look like. >> well, i think, you know,

there would be a battle for the leadership, particularly if the senate comes more in play for the 2024 cycle, where it looks like republicans can take the majority again. i think that would be one way in which mcconnell could very easily transition out. either way, actually. so that battle for the -- for who would then succeed him in the leadership is going to be -- i think it is going to be a lot more tense than people think it is. i mean, john thune would be my personal favorite, to be honest. i've known him a long time, and i think he is an incredible leader who has that ability to work with the president across the aisle, you know, and all of that, should biden return to office. but there's always going to be that sort of maga-esque kind of backflow, which is sort of bubbled up in the senate with the tubervilles and others kind of making way. that'll be an interesting story line. what i find more interesting right now, particularly in the

clips that were played, take out mcconnell's name and stick in biden. >> mm-hmm. >> all right? so we can dispense with the ageism stuff coming from republicans about joe biden, because the reality of it is, we are a country that is being led by older individuals, and both parties, you know, are on the pike on this one. dial it back. be concerned about mcconnell's health, as i'm sure people are concerned about biden and they're concerned about dianne feinstein and others. those narratives will play themselves out, but this whole idea that my guy, who had this episode in front of national cameras, is somehow better than your guy who tripped over a sandbag, it's just -- you know, we just need to pull all that crazy aside and move beyond that at this point. their health obviously is important, but you can't drive

the politics, necessarily, that way. if it's that bad for mcconnell or biden or anyone else, then step out of it. >> to your point, michael steele, there was a moment on capitol hill yesterday involving 90-year-old democratic senator feinstein. during a committee meeting, she was called to vote on a defense appropriations bill and seemed to misunderstand what was being asked of her. instead of offering a one-word reply, feinstein began to speak at length before an aide and ult ma ultimately another member of the committee stepped in. >> call the roll. >> senator feinstein. >> say aye. >> pardon me? >> aye. >> just say aye. >> i would like to support a yes vote on this. it provides $823 billion. that's an increase of $26

billion for the department of defense. it funds priorities submitted. >> just say aye. >> okay, just aye. >> thank you. >> senator durbin. >> in a statement to nbc news yesterday, a spokesperson for senator feinstein wrote, "trying to complete all the appropriation bills before recess, the committee markup this morning was a little chaotic, constantly switching back and forth between statements, votes and debate and the order of bills. the senator was preoccupied, didn't realize debate had just ended and a vote was called. she was informed and then cast her vote." that's a staffer trying to protect senatorfeinstein, but the fact is, there are democrats who are not just whispering about this but have gone on the record can go her to resign.

democrats in congress saying that it's time, though they appreciate everything she's done and the historic figure she is, time for her to step aside. but it all gets to michael steele's larger point about the age of our leaders. dianne feinstein, president biden. by the way, donald trump, who is 77 years old, no spring chicken himself. >> yeah. i mean, it is sort of wild looking at that. that generation that's still in power, i mean, it's not an accident that you see this in the democratic party and republican party. you know, we are, i think, at the end of an era where you have this -- that generation that's even, in some cases, pre-baby boomers, in charge of america. i think that's why you're likely to see trump and biden in an election in 2024. we're still not quite through this period. that was tough to watch. patty murray, senator murray telling her, "just say aye," ultimately, it's up to either

the individual to say that it's time to go or the voters. voters of california knew how old feinstein was and re-elected her in 2018 -- or in 2020, excuse me. they knew how old she was, right? it was -elected her anyway. part of this is voters also weighing in. i'm sure the white house is not excited to see older politicians having a difficult week, but they have to show not all 80-year-olds are the same. show the president vibrant. show the president out and about. show the president having a great week in the world stage, as we saw in europe a couple weeks ago, delivering great economic news. that is the way they battle this back. >> we should remind our viewers, senator feinstein is up for

re-election next year but has said she will not run. she has a year and a half or so left in her term, in her career, her senate career either way. still ahead on "morning joe," the world is full of nuclear weapons, but apparently not enough experts who oversee them. our next guest says things are more dangerous now than when the atomic bomb was first developed. we'll get his explanation next on "morning joe." >> nine, eight, seven, six, five. in 99% of people over 50. it's lying dormant, waiting... and could reactivate. shingles strikes as a painful, blistering rash that can last for weeks. and it could wake at any time. think you're not at risk for shingles? it's time to wake up. because shingles could wake up in you. if you're over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist about shingles prevention.

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these things are heart -- hard on your heart. >> 30 seconds. >> ten, nine, eight, seven, six,

five, four, three, two, one. >> an tense scene from the film "oppenheimer," right before the test of the atomic bomb. before that, a question was posed by niels bohr. >> i knew you could do this without me. >> why did you come? >> to talk about after. the power you're about to reveal will forever outlive the nazis, and the world is not prepared. >> you could lift the stone without being ready for the snake that's revealed. >> we have to make the politicians understand, this isn't a new weapon. it's a new world. i'll be out there doing what i can, but you, you are an american prometheus, a man who gave them the power to destroy

themselves. and they'll respect that. >> our next guest says that question was tackled in the days after the bomb was dropped, but the guardrails have seemingly gone by the wayside. this morning, "politico" is out with a new cover story titled, "extinction event: the disappearing nuclear expert." author brian bender details how the policy wonks are more concerned than ever about the specter of a nuclear war, and warned we are less prepared than we were during the cold war to deal with the expansive threat. joining us is brian bender, currently vice president for communications strategy at strategic marketing innovations, a government affairs firm that advises clients in clean energy space and biotech. brian formerly served as "politico's" senior national correspondent, focusing on defense and national security. brian, good morning. this piece certainly grabbed our attention. the context around it, we've all been watching "oppenheimer" and the ethical and moral questions

about the development of the bomb and how it will be protected in the decades since. tell us about the state of affairs here and why so many people are so concerned. >> well, there's definitely a palpable sense that the battle days are back. in other words, we are in a nuclear standoff, not just with russia but now increasingly china, which is building up its nuclear arsenal year by year by year. there's a sense and a fear that we just don't have the bench anymore, the brainpower if you will, that we did during the height of the cold war. whether it's political scientists, economists, engineers, technicians, the whole gamut of people whose entire, you know, professional life was built around preventing the unthinkable. we've had 30 years now since the end of the cold war where, you know, the u.s. is focused primarily on a lot of other threats, short of global nuclear war, but those days are

potentially back. again, you know, there's this sense across the government but also think tanks, academia, that we're just not training, haven't trained the new generation of folks to think this through to deal with this. >> bryan, obviously, nuclear weapons a forefront of mind when vladimir putin sort of rattles that saber in his threats against ukraine. u.s. military officials believe it's not a step he is willing to take but, of course, every time it's raised, we all worry. my question to you, that's the world's largest nuclear arsenal. how safe are these weapons? what are the safeguards in place there or in other countries where they're starting to develop this technology that could prevent, whether it's a government or even a rogue actor 23r getting their hands on one and using it for the worst possible purposes? >> i think that's a primary concern. i mean, at least during the cold war, as bad as it was and as close as we came, you know, more than one occasion to coming to blows, there is concern that,

you know, there's really no diplomatic means anymore to talk to the russians about their nuclear arsenal. the treaties we relied on for so many decades with the russians to at least keep some level of stability. they'd come inspect our weapons sites, and we'd do the same. it's collapsed in recent years, and it's only gotten worse since the invasion of ukraine. at the end of the cold war, there was concern when the soviet union broke up, what's going to happen to the nukes? the u.s. and its allies did a lot in those days to work with the russians to secure nuclear materials and make sure their scientists weren't going to the highest bidder, like iran or north korea. now, there really is no communication. there's very little insight into that. obviously, a lot of concern about the stability of the regime in russia and what putin might be willing to do, that former russian leaders were not. >> bryan, where is -- i mean,

russia obviously is front and center right now because of its invasion in ukraine and the war that's gone on a year and a half now. when you talk to experts, where are the other areas of concern? is it iran? is it someone like kim jong-un finally developing a nuclear weapon? where are the other flash points here? >> well, you know, during the cold war, we were used to basically having to deal with one peer competitor in the nuclear arena, and that was is soviet union. now, we have china, which is quadrupling its nuclear arsenal according to the pentagon over the next decade or so. you know, they could get to the level where they have almost as many deployed nuclear weapons as the united states and russia. we never really had to think about that before. not just deterring one major power but deterring two. then, as you mentioned, you have north korea, you have iran, other rogue states that are trying to get nuclear weapons. add on to all of that the advent of new technologies.

hypersonic weapons that travel far faster than we ever conceived of during the cold war. artificial intelligence which is a big unknown in terms of sowing confusion. cyberattacks. there's all this new technology, these potential new factor it is in that equation that we hadn't had to think about before. we're going to need some really smart people, a whole new generation really, to think through all of these things. you know, in a much more complicated world where there's a lot more players and, arguably, a lot more uncertainty. >> fascinating new piece and an important one. it's in "politico" magazine. it is online now. bryan bender, thanks for bringing it to us. appreciate it. >> thanks for having me. still ahead this morning, we'll show you what the white house had to say when asked about a possible pardon for president biden's son, hunter. plus, a senior member of the senate who has investigated hunter biden weighs in on the

legal developments there. also ahead, donald trump and other republican candidates in the 2024 race will be in iowa this weekend. we'll explain why it is an important visit for the rest of the field and, of course, we will be back to our top story. a new superseing indictment in the mar-a-lago documents case. it's all ahead on "morning joe." age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv stop right there! this week, get the denny's super slam starting at $7.99. hungry for all your breakfast favorites?

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so much in his major league career already, this would be the first complete career game shutout. there it is. shohei ohtani goes all nine. looking for his first hit of the series. some clapping for shohei, who goes to the opposite field. get going, yeah! his major league leading 37th! o-shot. >> with two gone, the first player in history to homer in one game of a double-header,

throw a complete game in the other. oh, he got another one! get going! ohtani has done it again. santa maria, complete game shutout, check. two homers in the night cap, check. >> we've just never seen it before. an absolutely unbelievable double-header for the great shohei ohtani yesterday in detroit. as you heard, in game one, he pitched a complete game, one-hit shutout. then in game two, as the designated hitter, blasts two home runs in back-to-back at-bats before leaving the game with cramps. you can understand that. had a long day. this comes a day after the team made a significant trade to bring in more pitching in hopes of making a playoff push and making clear that he was not available for trade. jonathan lemire, we keep thinking we've seen the best of what he can do, but this has to be -- this is one of the most

extraordinary things i've ever seen in baseball. i can't compare it to anything. a guy pitches a one-hit shutout, then hits two home runs in a double-header. we've never seen this before. >> cramps. slacker. [ laughter ] willie, you and i have this conversation two times a week, "shohei ohtani, he is the best." he is the best. you could argue, he had one of the greatest days in the history of the sport yesterday. >> yeah. >> complete game, one-hit shoutout, then two homers in the second game of a double-hitter. he is babe ruth. he might be better than babe ruth. i mean, in terms of a pure pinnacle. we certainly hope he has a long career and plays for many, many more years. right here at his apex, he's probably playing the game better than anyone has ever played it before. >> i don't think that's an overstatement. it's true. you'll never see anything like, i don't think, what you saw yesterday, just extraordinary.

jen palmieri, your baltimore orioles, your first place baltimore orioles kind of have the weekend off. the last place new york yankees coming to town. some scrappy kids from the bronx. they might get aaron judge. we don't foe for sure, but we think aaron judge might come back this weekend. we're happy to be on the same field as the first place orioles, it's an honor. >> stop. i hate it. i looked at the schedule and told jim, like, oh no, the yankees are coming to baltimore. it's just -- it doesn't matter. are you in last place or second to last? >> we're in last, yeah, by one game. >> it doesn't matter. >> way to rub it in. >> yankees and the o's -- last, second to last, hard to keep track. it doesn't matter. when the o's and yankees get together, doesn't matter who is in what place, like, it's always a very tough series for the o's. you know, this is our year. >> i've been clear, it's a very

exciting story in baltimore. we're only 2.5 games of the wild card. maybe we'll snatch that and see you in the playoffs. it'll be a fun series this weekend. we've crossed the top of the hour, 7:00 a.m. on the east coast. some big news as you wake up. donald trump is waiting, as you know, for a likely indictment for his alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 election results, but now the former president has been hit with three new charges. it happened yesterday in a separate case, the mar-a-lago case. in the southern district of florida, federal prosecutors added two new counts of obstruction and one of willfully retaining national defense information in the case centered around his handling of classified documents at mar-a-lago. the new charges were laid out in this superseding indictment which alleges trump directed two employees at his palm beach estate to destroy security camera footage shortly after the justice department issued a subpoena to obtain the same video in june of last year.

one of the employees, trump's valet, walt nauta, was previously charged with trump. now, a new character in the story is mar-a-lago property manager, carlos d.oliveira. he was charged in yesterday's indictment. it describes when nauta and de oliveira walked with a flashlight at a dark tunnel at mar-a-lago to scope out a room where classified documents were being watched by security cameras. de oliveira allegedly told another employee the boss wanted that security footage deleted. another meeting at trump's property in bedminster new jersey, the form er president showed off a document on military options for iran, shown to people doing a memoir for his

chief of staff mark meadows. this tape was leaked last month. >> with milley, let me see that. i'll show you an example. he said that i wanted to attack iran. isn't it amazing? i have a big pile of papers. this thing just came up, look. this was him. they presented me this. this is off the record. but they presented me this. this was him. this was the defense department and him. >> wow. >> we looked at some. this was him. this wasn't done by me. this was him. >> yeah. >> all sorts of stuff, pages long. look. wait a minute, let's see here. >> oh, my gosh. >> yeah. >> isn't that amazing? this totally wins my case, you know. except it is, like, highly confidential. by the way, isn't that incredible? >> yeah. >> i was just saying, because we were talking about it. and he said, "he wanted to attack iran and what" -- >> he said you did.

>> this was done by the military, given to me. um, i think we can probably -- right? >> we'll have to see. yeah, we'll have to try to figure out a -- >> declassify it. >> yeah. >> as president, i could have declassified, and now i can't. >> now we have a problem. >> in total, trump is now charged with 40 counts in the classified documents case. he and nauta have pleaded not guilty to their previous charges. a lawyer for de oliveira, the property manager, declined to comment. a trial tentatively set for may 20th, 2024. let's bring in nbc news legal analyst andrew weissmann. "new york times" opinion columnist david french. and the host of the podcast "on brand with donny deutsch," donny deutsch. jonathan lemire, michael steele, jen palmieri all still with us, as well. andrew weissmannweissmann, let' with you. to be clear, this is not the indictment we've been waiting for this week. involving a separate case on the

january 6th, 2020, election. this takes us back to the mar-a-lago case. there is an introduction of a new character, mr. de oliveira, the property manager. what do you see here? >> i thought the case was very strong before this, but it is incredible that it's now gotten much stronger, especially to the obstruction charges. the government is now going to be able to say, "see this really damning surveillance evidence? this is the evidence that the defendants did not want you to see. there was a plan to get rid of it, and you know why." but it is really good evidence, and it helps bolster the underlying part of the case and, of course, it's an additional set of crimes. then with respect to the bedminster tape, if you recall, this was a really explosive tape. what we heard from the former president was, you know, he was just blustering. he didn't really have a document.

he was just shuffling papers. this is now not just described in the indictment, it is charged. it is now part of the criminal charge in this case, and it's very clear from the allegations that the government knows exactly which document this is and when it was returned to the national archives. so there is no question, at least in the government's minds, that they actually have the document, that it is not true, according to these allegations, that this is just bluster and that he was just showing some sort of newspaper or some rustling of some unknown paper. this is now -- the tape recording that you just played is now direct evidence of a charged crime. it's hard to see something stronger than that. every prosecutor wants to have their defendant on tape confessing to a crime, and that's exactly what the government has now in its hands. >> that's a good point. after that tape was leaked, donald trump had said, "no, it

was newspapers. i had plans for a new golf course." meanwhile, he was talking about how they were classified. it is clear from this new indictment that the government knows what that document is. you had raised the possibility to us a few weeks ago, andrew, of a separate case coming out of new jersey because of this conversation and these documents were allegedly flashed in bedminster, which is in the state of new jersey. now, it looks like this has been folded into the florida case. is that what happened here? >> yeah, absolutely. it seems pretty clear there was a venue issue that seemed to hang up the government because this is a tape recording of something that happened in bedminster. if you look at the new charges that were unveiled yesterday, clearly, the government has been able to see that this document made its way, not just to bedminster, but back to mar-a-lago, so that gives them venue. the constitution requires that you bring charges where the

crime occurred. here, they're alleging that that document was, at some point, retained by the president, the former president, at mar-a-lago. with that piece, they were able to bring this as part of the existing case, and the tape recording that you played is now direct evidence. there's no question that judge cannon has to let the tape recording into evidence now in this case. >> david french, this is a very specific window, this new superseing indictment, into the timeline of events as the federal government is alleging, as doj is alleging. we've been saying since we came on the air this morning, it reads like something out of a mob family. they're all trying to please the boss. the boss wants the server deleted. kill the tapes. then checking in on everyone's loyalty. "can we count on carlos d. ol oliveira? is he still my guy? is he loyal?" donald trump passings it down

through the underlings, and getting word, "we don't have to worry about carlos. he's good." then trump calling the property manager saying, "i understand you're good. i appreciate it. i'll help you get a lawyer." it is worth everyone's time to give it a read, to understand what the former president of the united states allegedly did here to obstruct the return of these documents. >> yeah, that's a great way to respond to critics of the indictment, "read the indictment." >> yeah. >> you're right, this is like tom and greg level stuff from the tv show "succession." it reads like a television show. it doesn't read like a former president of the united states safeguarding the nation's secrets here. i have to agree with what was just said. this took a strong case and it made it stronger, and it made it stronger in a very important way. it took the strongest element of the case, which was the obstruction element of the case, the part that really separates this from many of the other classified information scandals

or national defense scandals we've endured over the last few years, and it made that strongest element even stronger. the details of the back and forth, over the deleting of video footage are extremely damaging for trump. again, it just goes back to when their people are skeptical about these charges, read this account and ask yourself, if this is true, if this is true, did the doj have a choice but to charge him? did they have any other choice other than to charge him? because if you don't charge someone for these circumstances, do you even have really a process for protecting information pertaining to the national defense? i mean, you would -- you would have to be able to drive a semi truck through the practical loopholes you'd be exploiting. >> donny, we talked at length about how we don't think this will change much, despite how damning the evidence seems to be, will change much in the republican field. i want to get you on another matter, what the white house is

doing. i should also take this moment to compliment your jacket. you look great this morning. >> i want to interrupt you. this is available now. this is the donny line. urban splendor, affordable prices, mj.com, dress for success. >> i give that a brand up and a brand shameless. >> mm-hmm. >> donny, the white house has decided, from orders from the president himself, don't talk about this. we don't want to have any perception that we're putting our thumb on the scale with the department of justice. we feel like we want to keep clear lines. we're not going to talk about the legal trouble donald trump is in. instead, especially of late, we're going to talk about the economy, bidenomics. gdp numbers are good, inflation is cooling, jobs have been great. this is your expertise. let me get your take. is this the right approach? >> absolutely the right approach. two tracks going forward. the trump track, we know what the news is, and it'll continue as we wait for the january 6th

indictment and other indictments to come, almost definitely in the georgia indictment. that's the news track that will happen on its own as far as what happens to donald trump. biden, there's an incredible story here, no matter how you tick it. gdp, manufacturing, jobs, unemployment, consumer sentiment, china. no matter how you slice it -- cooling inflation -- they have a great story. they'd almost diminish their story by going, "look at trump. look what's going on over there." this is one of the rare instances a campaign doesn't have to do negative advertising. doesn't have to put a dollar against it. tell the biden economic story. it is the compelling story. let the trump story be told on its own by news outlets. that will happen. i can't think going in -- once again, we are over a year out of a incumbent campaign, despite what the polls say at this point, in a better strategic place as far as where they are and where the opponent is.

stick to bidenomics. it's the winning story. >> totally. i would say i totally agree with donny. a lot of the arguments republicans were going to make against biden in the re-elect, border, economy, gone. you know, look, we're talking about biden's economic story because it's the contrast to trump because he's not talking about trump, right? i would say as the former white house communications director, that strategy is working. andrew weissmann, true new york yorker, got up early. andrew said he is a true new yorker and doesn't like to get up before 9:00 a.m. delightful to see you. you had a great tweet last night about trump with a particular argument i think he made in the filing, about how he should get special privileges to be able to -- to not have to go to a secure location to see some of the documents that are classified. they're going to be part of the trial. can you explain that? >> sure.

so the judge had sent the parties back to negotiate a -- what's called a protective order, how they're going to propose to handle classified information going forward. in a filing yesterday, donald trump said that he wants to be able to see and discuss classified documents and classified information at, wait for it, mar-a-lago and possibly bedminster. that's the crime. that's something he is now actually asking the judge, to be able to see, discuss and have classified information at an unsecured location. there is no, and i repeat, no legal support for that position. even judge cannon should be rejecting this, but that is really -- yes, i'm a veteran new

yorker, as we say, and that is quite a lot. >> andrew, for someone who doesn't like to wake up before 9:00 a.m., you've been up early with us for about five years straight, so thank you very much. thank you very much for that. we appreciate it. i want to ask you, too, we had chuck rosenberg on in our last hour, andrew, and he was talking about the other case we're waiting for, potential in a likely indictment of the former president around the 2020 election and january 6th. chuck said it's as compelling a case as i've ever seen, which we were struck by, from a guy who has seen a lot of cases. what's your assessment of the strength of the case and how soon we might see an indictment here? >> so on the strength of the case, we obviously haven't seen the charges yet. we're going to see quite a lot. i suspect it is going to be a lot like the mar-a-lago case, where we learned a bit of additional evidence. if you look at what we know from the january 6th investigation done by the house and the

reporting on this, this seems like this case is not about the facts and the law. this is going to be about donald trump trying to win the presidency so he can just put an end to the case politically. because i don't think there is going to be much of a factual or a legal issue for him to raise. the one thing i still would wait for in terms of when we will see charges is we did learn yesterday that the defense went in to make their last-ditch pitch to jack smith, that the next step for them is to say they'd like to be heard by the department of justice to appeal that decision. that is something they were afforded the opportunity to do in the documents case. it's something they could do here. but people should not be concerned about the timing of that because that can happen within one day. they meet very quickly. there's no way that the department of justice is going to let that appeal process linger. >> is there any chance, andrew,

the grand jury met yesterday, voted already, and the announcement will be made later? do you think they're still working on this? >> that is possible, but i wouldn't say that's likely. the reason is, if by all accounts this was -- yesterday was an appeal to jack smith to not bring charges, it would be quite poor form to actually have indicted the same day, while you are having that meeting. you would want to certainly consider those arguments, and you would want to give the defense an opportunity to be heard and, you know, to appeal that decision to main justice. i don't think that's what happened yesterday. but, again, i do think that this is only a matter of a few days. i just don't think the department is going to let this linger. it's really clear that jack smith has his foot on the pedal. if you look at what he's been doing in the documents case, he's obviously been very

concerned about the clock and moving things along. >> he's pretty relentless here. david french, republican hopefuls, people who are running against donald trump, all will be gathered with trump in iowa, save chris christie who won't be there, for events this week to make appeals to voters in iowa. recent history and, frankly, the history of the last eight years, has taught us, despite everything we're talking about this morning, despite everything laid out in these indictments, including a new one yesterday, we're not going to hear full-throated criticism of the former president from any of these candidates. >> yeah. i mean, look, they're in a difficult situation. because here's one thing absolutely true about republican voters. they don't want to feel bad for voting for donald trump. there's no circumstance under which republican voters, not all of them, but most of them are going to be wanting to feel like they regret it or that trump's critics were correct. you have to understand, for

years now, both trump and sort of the right wing entertainment world had been telling the entire republican public that all of trump's critics are biased against him, that there's nothing to it. everything is always exaggerated against him. this idea that, oh, well, now they got him, that is not something that's going to fly with most gop voters, primary voters, after all these years. at the same time, objectively one of the strongest cases to make against donald trump is the man is under a federal indictment. on its face, it is incredibly damaging, and he could be sentenced to prison before a presidential election. i mean, this should be utterly, completelydisqualifying. in many ways, the challengers have the best argument in one sense for their electorate where

it is perhaps damaging to make. they're in a difficult situation. chris christie is road testing this really novel strategy called telling the truth about donald trump. it's maybe getting him a tiny bit of traction in some places. they're looking at a republican primary voting public that's still really, really liking donald trump. >> michael steele, david french is exactly right. you're not going to win right now. >> no. >> by suddenly getting trump voters to not like him. >> right. >> but isn't the argument about electability? you can say, if you're another republican candidate, say, "look, this is unfair. deep state is going after him." hit all those notes and win favor with trump voters. then you say, "look, it's not his fault, but he is too damaged. all these prosecutions, he's going to be shuttling from courtroom to courtroom. he is not going to be able to win next year. he's not going to be able to beat president biden." would that argument hold? >> no. this isn't a fight about necessarily electability in this

moment. this is a longer play that's been ongoing inside the gop for some time. you know, i just -- i've been involved in this party since, you know, 1976, so i've seen this slow evolution within its ranks. to david's point, when they sink their teeth into an idea, they don't let go of it that easily, because they wrap themselves in it. so this notion that, you know, well, we're all going to shift now to, i don't know, tim scott or nikki haley on the electability question, they don't look at it through that prism. they're looking at this in a much broader content of, you know, grievance and frustration and anger at a system that has stripped power away from them, stripped opportunities from them. that's why the whole crt b.s.

resonates. the stuff coming out of ron desantis' dark mind resonates. this is what is holding the narrative together for them. electability is almost an afterthought for a lot of the primary voters, because the fight is bigger than one election. it is a process. donald trump, that's why he looks at them and says, "i am your retribution," and they're like, "yeah, that's what i'm talking about." he didn't say, "i'm the only one who can get elected." >> yeah, and he's the bulwark against things that they think the country is slipping away from them. donny deutsch, you know, ron desantis' entire platform, his entire reason for running was, "i'm a winner." he made the electability argument. he's been trying a couple months now to make it, and his poll numbers go down. i won in florida by 20 points. i get things done in florida. donald trump is going to lose to

joe biden if he runs. he's making that case, in theory, and it seems to be falling on deaf ears. >> it is falling for two reasons. one, he is a horrible candidate. i think we've kind of gone over that in detail. but to pick up on michael's point, the problem with the argument about, "trump is not going to win, i'll win," and it is the only rational argument at this point, is irrational, people who are voting for trump, as far as their thought process. they want to vote for him. even if you said, "you know what, he's not going to win." "i don't care. this is a statement i make. it's from the gut. it is about anger." they'll rationalize he will win. you can't argue emotion with rationality. it doesn't work. there's something deeper. when i vote for trump, i'm saying, screw you, to the system. i don't think that i thinking, will he win?

will he not win? he stands for something bigger, more raw, more deeper, more angry, that a rational argument, he's not going to win, doesn't matter. i don't care. i'm voting for him anyway. >> yeah, the old rules of -- the rational rules we apply to politics don't apply to donald trump. there is something larger at play. donny, i didn't know, first of all, we had white microphones available, but we got one to match your glasses. that's an option now. i'll keep it in mind. just cruising into a summer weekend, donny. have a good one. >> cruise wear will be available in november, by the way. >> okay. the donny deutsch collection. thanks so much. andrew weissmann, thank you so much, as well, and david french, to you, also. have a great weekend. still ahead on morning joe, the lawmakers start the august recess early despite looming shutdown deadlines. what it means for the upcoming fight over several crucial spending bills. as we go to break, very excited to tell you, my guest this week on "sunday today" over

on nbc is the great steph curry. yeah, we got steph curry. remember a couple weeks ago, he won that golf tournament, drained the eagle putt on 18. we went to hit some balls at the driving range in new york city. talked about his life and his career. oh man, that swing, i have to work on that. his career of always being underrated since he was a skinny kid growing up in charlotte, recruited by none of the schools where he wanted to play in college. questions as he entered the nba. now, a sports icon. steph curry coming up this sunday over on nbc on "sunday today." we'll be right back here on "morning joe." nucala is a once-monthly add-on treatment for severe eosinophilic asthma that can mean less oral steroids. not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions,

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the american military has been segregated since the founding. hundreds of thousands of people of color, men and women still courageously serve, with the love of country that often didn't love them back. they served in our revolutionary war, declaring independence from a king, only to be enslaved by a

master. protected the union in the civil war, only to face disunion under jim crow. they sacrificed during two world wa ainst autocracy, only to be denied the freedom of their own democracy. when these veterans came home, they were still denied equal opportunity in housing, education, jobs, even marriage. families held in incarceration camps. many denied the benefits of the g.i. bill because the states, the states put up barriers to be able to collect that g.i. benefit. that's what happened 75 years ago when an american president chose to do right. that's what we commemorate tonight. a forward march in our own lives and the life of the nation, toward the north star, the idea of america that beats in the heart of all of our people. >> president biden speaking yesterday at the truman civil rights symposium, honoring the 75th anniversary of president

truman's order to desegregate the military. joining us now, author and presidential historian doris kearns goodwin. so great to have you with us. as we've been talking this week about indictments, a new one yesterday, the potential of another indictment of a former president of the united states, and all that that means for the country, it is good to stop and point to moments like the one we saw yesterday. the anniversary of the desegregation of the military. the announcement by the president and by the white house of monuments, a couple of them for emmett till and his mother, as well. these are moments that are worth our attention. they are worth marking. obviously, huge moments in the history of our country. >> oh, you're so right, willie. you know, i mean, i think about the fact, what if the former president accepted the peaceful transition of power and the public space was open for the last 2 1/2 years for discussions like this, rather than

continually having to worry about january 6th indictments, congressional hearings. but here we are. it was a good week in many ways for history. it started badly with the florida standards being set, that you're supposed to talk in these classrooms about the good things that happened to slaves. then it went on with the monument to emmett till. not just to the commemoration of the poor little boy who was killed but the courageous decision of his mother, who was willing to let his face be shown. it fired the conscience of the country, and it fired 100 days later. there was rosa parks sitting in the bus, told to go to the back, and she thought of emmett till and said, "no, i'm going to stay here." that brings out the bus boycott, brings out martin luther king jr. he comes forward. it was the ripples that changed things. to watch president biden yesterday at the 75th anniversary, truman's thing was hard for him to do. he came from a confederate family. his mother hated lincoln so much, when she went to the white

house, she would not sleep in his bedroom if she had to. she'd sleep on the floor. he defied that background and gave that executive order. he said that what happened to him, and it talks about what biden was talking about, he watched the returning veterans come home after world war ii. they were forced into second rate citizenship again in the south. it was one veteran, in particular, who was blinded by a police officer, and the police officer got office, of course, and the jury trial. it made him realize more than the statistics did what happened to that one person. that's what david mcculloch said, sometimes that can be more powerful than statistics. he went for that executive order. even though it meant that he was risking his election in 1948. the dixie ca crats would move a. but he won because he went on a train and fought for civil rights, he fought for medicare. it was said his own party was calling him, well, we're mild about harry.

after the train ride, they were wild about harry, and he won the election. fighting for the rights of things is what we should be doing. truman is a good model, i think, for president biden right now. it was good he brought this bipartisan legislation that he can run on, but now he has to fight on what is happening in so many of these states. books being banned, libraries that are being closed, abortions that are increased in terms of the bans on them. there's a lot to fight about. the fighting spirit of truman would be a good thing for biden to take up. >> we saw a little of the fighting spirit if president biden last night. polls suggest that voters are mild about joe, but the record is there. he used the moment to speak about the armed services, to call out senator tuberville of alabama and his blockade of the military positions that are not being filled because of what he is doing. president biden, in his harshest language yet, used to talk about how the republicans used to be the party of defense. they used to be the party of national security. they're not doing that anymore. they're letting us down. talk to us about that evolution.

did you ever imagine that a republican party that once so linked itself to the pentagon would now do this? >> yeah, it's still boggling to see that in some parts of the republican party, not supporting the war in ukraine. something that's so important for world order. something about nato. i think that's where you do have to make that fight. biden was pretty energetic last night, just watching him. he was walking around, and he was talking. he felt that fight in his feeling. also, just think about it, the military after that 75 year anniversary is our most diverse and respected institution in all of the country. here, we have programs in many states, one after another, to undo diversity and inclusion. those are the kind of things president biden should be fighting against, what we all should be fighting against. sometimes i think if i were a young woman right now, so much is happening to history, it's being taken away in our schools, being whitewalled, being reduced, it's being forced to

have certain kinds of discussions. you can't have any that make people anxious, so you might not be able to talk about jim crow. historians have to be out there. maybe we have to be doing something for our profession. without history, and that's what was shown yesterday, history gave president biden the platform to talk about the importance of diversity, the importance of inclusion, the importance of creating an institution like the military, which has become one of the most respected in the country because of its inclusion. i think that spirit would do him very well to continue on that path. he's already got the benefits of the person he is that wanted to bring people together. all those things have happened. now, you can shift and say, but there's still much more we have to do. we have to fight going backward. we're going forward. we cannot go backward. >> doris, i really appreciate that point. i'd like to frame it out a little bit more. because we are a nation now with fewer and fewer trumans, eisenhowers, reagans, daddy bush, right?

even joe biden in the terms that he laid out yesterday. so how does the nation respond in this moment to the emerging narratives, not just in florida but around the country, that black men and women in this country benefitted from slavery? somehow, our skills that we apply today werelearned, and it was a good thing we were able to learn those skills from slavery. how does the nation, its people respond in this moment? >> i mean, the nation has to understand that to talk about slavery as a job training program for black americans is just a violation of everything we know about history. i mean, we have to be able to tell people when things were terrible because good things come out of the bad things. sometimes i think at the end of a day, what if we could just erase our memories of the bad things that happened to us that day? maybe we could just have no resentments and could be better

people. then i think, no, just the opposite. the only way you grow as a person is by learning from your mistakes, learning from the bad things that happened. that's what our history has done. we learned. think of how far we came when the birmingham had the dogs sent against the children. that led to the civil rights bill. selma produces the voting rights act. all the bad things that happened move us forward. it takes time, and sometimes it's one step at a time, one baton. but if we try to whitewash our history and say, "oh, these things make people anxious, we can't talk about them." in tennessee, you're not supposed to talk about struggles. racism is not supposed to be used. some people are afraid they can't even teach about the civil rights struggle. we have to fight that as historians, as a people. we know our history makes our strong rather than weak. if we allow ourselves not to even deal with the truth of the history, then we have no chance of going forward. we are going backward if we do

that. i don't think we'll do that. people see this is wrong. people are fighting it. librarians just being undone now in houston. they're going to be put --braia the public system, it'll be detention centers. people need books in their schools. these things are important to fight against, and we as a people need to don't. >> we have painful reminders that we need to fight for our democracy. it is not something to be taken for granted. doris kearns goodwin, always bringing her wisdom. great to see you. thank you for being here. >> glad to be here. thank you. our next guest says, quote, america was born in paranoia. the obsession with secret societies and conspiracy theories and its impact on u.s. politics. we're back in a moment with more "morning joe."

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let me ask you about qanon. it's this theory that democrats are a satanic pedophile ring and you are the savior of that. now, can you once and for all state that that is completely not true -- >> so. >> -- and disavow qanon in its entirety? >> i know nothing about qanon. >> i just told you. republican senator ben sasse said, quote, qanon is nuts and real leaders call conspiracy theories conspiracy theories. why not just say -- >> can i be honest? >> -- it's not true? >> he may be right, but i don't know about qanon. >> you do know. >> what i do hear about it is they are very strongly against pedophilia, and i agree with that. i mean, i do agree with that. >> there is not a satanic pedophile cult being result. >> i don't know that.

>> you don't know that? >> that was then president donald trump during a 2020 town hall with nbc's savannah guthrie. trump's refusal to disavow qanon, one of the many conspiracy theories he stoked and promoted over the years. our next guest says conspiracies are not unique to this time in our politics, but rather etched into america's dna. joining us is author colin dickey. his book is "under the eye of power, how the fear of secret societies shapes american democracy." great to have you on. you draw this line way back in history to where we are today, where our politics seem to be consumed, at least on one side of the aisle, with conspiracies. where do you say it began in this country? >> i mean, i think you can go back to salem. salem's whole -- the witch trials were about this idea that your ordinary neighbor who is just like everybody else was secretly in a cabal with satan to do harm to you. you go all the way back.

our founding moment, the american revolution, you had people arguing that the entire american revolution was a french plot to secretly install a french king in the english crown. we've had these from the very beginning, and as you said, they go back to our dna. >> have been deployed by some of our most famous and renowned and respected leaders, including president washington in his farewell address. not, certainly, the manner we've seen donald trump use, but there's always been this sort o undermining what that person is doing. >> washington was one of many who believed firmly the illuminati, this sort of group, why it got so crazy. adams and jefferson, both of them had people arguing the other guy was in the illuminati.

it goes all the way back. >> we know of modern conspiracy theories. kennedy assassination, of course. we're seeing it on the graphic. the red scare. the communist witch hunt of the '50s. your book notes the civil war was a time of real conspiracy theories in the country, fueling the discussion around the conflict between the states. tell us about that. >> yeah, the 1850s were a time when we just had sort of conspiracy theories on every front. so in the north, you had people arguing, including lincoln and the republicans, that there was what they called a slaveocracy. the owners who were not just powerful but infected government and were undermining the american government from within. in the south, you had people arguing the abolitionists were this massive secret network doing all sorts of damage to the american population. you had a third conspiracy theory which was run by the

know-nothings, who blamed everything on the catholics and the pope exerting his influence from afar. the 1850s just had these three different conspiracy theories that were fighting for dominance. ultimately, only ended in a civil war. >> colin, whether you're talking then, the 1850s, or in the present day, what is the power, what's the secret sauce of these conspiracy theories, and why are people so gullible to them and sink deeper and deeper, to the point where a president of the united states couldn't even deny this is crazy. >> i think people are looking for something that gives them a kind of order and sense in the world. even if that sense is something sort of malevolent, it provides a narrative for the chaos. i think that's really appealing. when you're trying to debunk these things, you think of the facts. what are people trying to get out of the conspiracy theory,

and how can we undo that and then get to the facts? >> colin, given everything you know, everything you've studied for this book, what do you make of the current conspiracy theories? we've been talking a lot this morning about potential indictment of the former president for everything that happened around the 2020 election. we know some of the outlandish theories landing people in jail. people saying there was an italian satellite controlling voting machines, or china worked its way through thermostats to somehow control votes. i don't understand that one. that said, some of the conspiracy theories made their way to the oval office. it was the kind of thing donald trump was hearing and repeating. >> exactly. you know, you opened the segment with qanon. that idea of the sort of secret child abusers is what we saw in the '80s with the satanic panic. in the 1830s, a convent in boston was burned to the ground by people who thought it was an 1830s version of pizzagate.

these theories get spun over and over again with new details and new technology, but they become the same thing over and over again. >> such a fascinating book. it's titled "under the eye of power, how fear of secret societies shapes american democracy. "colin dickey, coming up next, we'll get back to our top story. new charges brought by the special counsel's office against donald trump in the mar-a-lago classified documents case. also ahead, we'll bring you joe's wide ranging conversation with oscar winner jamie lee curtis. "morning joe" is back in a moment. oe" is back a moment why didn't we do this last year? before you were preventing migraine with qulipta®? remember the pain? cancelled plans? the worry? that was then. and look at me now. you'll never truly forget migraine. but qulipta® reduces attacks, making zero-migraine days possible. it's the only pill of its kind that blocks cgrp - and is approved

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>> reporter: 18-year-old bronny james now diz charged from the hospital and resting at home following his sudden collapse from basketball practice on monday. his cardiologist sharing the news saying, thax to the swift and effective response by the usc athletics' medical staff, bronny james was successfully treated for sudden cardiac arrest. he arrived at the hospital fully conscious, neurologically intact, and fully stage. he goes on to say, although his workup will be ongoing, we are hopeful for his continued progress and are encouraged by his response. this cardiologist who didn't treat james -- >> this is looking at the heart muscle, the blood flow, the electrical activity as well as everything else to try and

figure out why did this happen? >> reporter: his superstar dad thanking the public for their love and prayers tweeting, everyone is doing great. we are thankful to be together and everyone is healthy. we feel your love. shining new light on cardiac arrest incidents in young athletes. these kids survived, and it happens in nearly every sport. in startling numbers. every hour in this country on average, a child under 18 collapses from sudden cardiac arrest. studies show it's the leading cause of death for kids in sports with african american college basketball players like james at the highest risk though researchers don't know why. >> we have had a heartbreaking situation here. >> reporter: in 2020, former university of florida basketball forward keonte johnson collapsed just before a game tipped off. he was diagnosed with athlete's heart, an enlargement due to

systemic training. he went pro, drafted by the oklahoma city thunder in june. >> i want to say thank you for the support y'all gave me. >> reporter: as bronny james recovers, how will it impact his future on the court? >> nbc's kaylee hartung reporting for us there. we wish bronny a full recovery. still ahead this morning, what top republicans are saying about minority leader mitch mcconnell's health scare this week and his ability to lead the republican conference. plus, another moment on capitol hill when senator dianne feinstein had to be instructed both by a staffer and a fellow senator on what to do during a committee hearing. and much more on our top story of the morning, new charges donald trump is facing in connection to his handling of classified documents after leaving the white house. they have added a new indictment there. "morning joe" is coming back on a busy friday morning. oe" is co a busy friday morning. in 99% of people over 50.

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he's a defendant who has almost no choice but to flip. he's looking at charges that have 20-year maximums even though that's not the real world sentencing. he's looking at spending a big chunk of time in prison if he goes forward. they have him dead to center if he does not cooperate, and what do they get if he does cooperate? he is putting trump front and center in this scheme to obstruct. >> that is former u.s. attorney

joyce vance describing the legal predicament for a mar-a-lago maintenance worker now co-defendant in donald trump's classified documents case. we will go through a big new development there. also ahead, the white house responds to question about whether president joe biden would consider a pardon for his son after hunter biden's plea deal fell apart earlier this week. plus, another unsettling moment in the senate with an aging lawmaker. we'll show you what happened with senator dianne feinstein yesterday. meanwhile the republican-controlled house takes an early recess leaving a big slate of unfinished business and not a whole will the of time to get it done when they come back in six weeks. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, july 28th. i'm willie geist. with us, we have jonathan lemere, michael steele, former white house director of communications to president obama, jennifer palmieri, former

u.s. attorney chuck rosenberg, and nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken delanian. the former president was hit with three new charges yesterday in a separate case. in the southern district of florida, federal prosecutors added two new counts of obstruction and one of willfully retaining information in the case centered around his mishandling of classified documents at mar-a-lago. those new charges laid out in a superseding indictment which alleges trump directed two employees at his palm beach estate to destroy security camera footage shortly after the justice department issued a subpoena to obtain the same video in june of last year. one of the employees, trump's valet walt nata was there with

trump. someone else has been added. he describes a moment when the two men walked with a flash flight through a dark tub at mar-a-lago to scope out a room where boxes of classified documents were being watched by security cameras. deoliveira said this was last august at bedminster, new jersey. the president allegedly showed off a classified document about possible attack plans for iran to people who were doing interviews for his former chief of staff mark meadows' upcoming memoir. that conversation you'll remember was captured on an audio tape that was leaked last month. >> well, with milley, let me see that. i'll show you an example. he said that i wanted to attack iran.

suspect it amazing? i have a big pile of papers and this thing just came up. look. this was him. they presented me this -- this is off the record, but they presented me this. this was him. this was the defense department and him. >> wow. >> we looked at some, but this was him. this wasn't done by me. this was him. all sorts of stuff. pages long, look. wait a minute. let's see here. >> oh my gosh. >> yeah. >> i just found -- isn't that amazing? this totally wins my case, you know. except it is, like, highly he way, isn't that incredible? >> yeah. >> i was just saying, because we were talking about it, and he said, he wanted to attack iran and what -- >> he said you did. >> this was done by the military and given to me. i don't know. i think we can probably -- right? >> i don't know. we'll have to see, yeah.

we'll have to try to -- >> declassify it. >> if i was president, i could declassify it. now i can't. >> we have a problem. >> that's audio of that meeting in bedminster. no total now, trump is now charged with 40 counts in the classified documents case. he and nata have pleaded not guilty to their previous charges. a lawyer for de oliveira have been in discussion. chuck rosenberg, we are waiting perhaps to hear for a new indictment in a separate occasion in the 2020 election and the efforts to overturn it. this goes back now to the mar-a-lago documents case. so for our viewers, what is a superseding indictment number one, and what do you read into the content of it? >> sure. number one, a superseding indictment is simply additional charges on an existing indictment. the first indictment of mr.

trump and mr. nata and mar-a-lago for mishandling classified documents and obstructing the investigation was unsealed about a month ago or so, willie. they have now added charges to it. they have added another defendant, mr. de oliveira. that supersedes the first indictment. it replaces it. it has additional charges, and we call it a superseding indictment. what do i make of it? well, you know, it's sort of sad in a way. when i was a federal prosecutor, there were always lower level individuals, and i can tell you quite frankly i didn't get any joy out of prosecuting them. my goal was always to enlist their cooperation, to have them tell the truth. they each come to a fork in the road where they can tell the truth or they can lie. if they lie, if they obstruct justice, if they attempt in this case to delete security footage that has been subpoenaed by the

department of justice, agents and prosecutors really don't have a choice other than to walk away, and they're not inclined to do that, and that's how people like mr. nata, a low-level valet, and mr. de oliveira, a low level property manager end up in an indictment with the former president of the united states. here's what else i make of it. they made really bad choice when is they decided to lie to the fbi and obstruct justice. it may not be too late for a good attorney to help each of them salvage it. they can still each tell the truth and they can minimize any damage to themselves. whether or not that happens, willie, we'll see. >> so ken, as you look through this new indictment, a new character is introduced. mr. de oliveira, the head of maintenance there, the property manager who was pulled into all of this by donald trump. just last summer, june 22, 2022, when the doj emailed trump's

attorneys a draft subpoena, donald trump says, okay. now i know the fbi/doj is coming for whatever i have here and perhaps for security footage setting in motion this process by which ultimately de oliveira tells the head of i.t. at mar-a-lago, the boss in his words, wants this stuff deleted. you've looked through this indictment. what else do you see in there? >> willie, let's just take a pause on what you just said. it's just extraordinary. these allegations rival anything that richard nixon was accused of. these are two additional counts of obstruction of justice, and this indictment reads like a mafia case. here you have -- again, these are allegations and the burden of proof here is high, and they don't have direct witnesses implicating trump, but this is a scheme to destroy evidence three days after a grand jury subpoena lands on mr. trump. it's mind-boggling, and as chuck said, it involves very low-level

employees whose lives are about to be ruined unless they cut a deal with prosecutors and as for mr. nata, there's no sign he's going to do that. his lawyers are paid for by mr. trump. he's completely loyal. he's following mr. trump around. so -- and the other thing i think about, these obstruction elements, is that, you know, a lot of regular americans out there who don't follow this very closely, when they hear about the classified documents case, they have a hard time distinguishing what trump did from what joe biden and mike pence did even though we all know it's vastly different, right? all three men had classified documents in their possession. but nobody has trouble -- i think, differentiating these incredible obstruction of justice charges. everybody understands what it means to destroy evidence, particularly surveillance video evidence. now i have to point out that there's no allegation in this new superseding indictment that they actually attempted to destroy the tapes. remember, we read in "the new york times" about an episode

where there was a flood, and there was some concern that that was an attempt to destroy the footage. that's not in here. there's no allegation either -- there's nobody that can directly put mr. trump in a room and testify i heard him say destroy the tapes. it's all hearsay. it's employee number four saying i talked to carlos de oliveira, and that's what he said. obviously what they would really like as chuck said is for mr. de oliveira to testify and tell the truth about his conversations with mr. trump. if you read the indictment, the obstruction is extraordinary, and then secondly of course, this mysterious document which we believe was a military plan, what the indictment now says was a military plan about options for attacking iran. donald trump said it didn't exist, remember, after the original indictment. now we know the government has it, has had it since trump turned over the first batch of documents to the national archive in january, 2022, and it's the subject of the tape you

just played, and it's a devastating piece of evidence. so this superseding indictment it seems to me really strengthens this already very strong case, and, you know, we were all waiting around yesterday thinking that the january 6 indictment was coming. so we're on at the beginning, really the third inning i think of the federal legal troubles for former president trump, willie. >> it is astonishing jonathan, and reading through this new indictment, it reads like something straight out of the gambino crime family where the boss wants the tapes deleted. donald trump calling his head of maintenance, other people who work for him who he knows are loyal to him, asking him to do things that will get him to where they are now which is brought up on federal charges. guys meeting in the bushes at mar-a-lago, discussing what to do and then after the feds come, checking on mr. de oliveira, the head of maintenance to say, we want to make sure carlos is good, in other words he's not going to squeal to the feds. is he loyal to us?

it is an extraordinary document. >> an extraordinary document with so many parallels to a mafia investigation from those '60s and '70s with one perhaps exception, the inclusion of an emoji. them saying, we're doing something secret. don't tell anybody, and using the shushing emoji. that shows the quality of henchman donald trump has. to ken's point there a moment ago, you know, we're here in washington. there are tv trucks lined as far as the eye can see outside the courthouse for that january 6th election indictment was coming. we still believe it is coming soon. we don't know if it will be this week or next, but this is a reminder that the superseing indictment, they already have donald trump seemingly dead to rights on this case. america's most sensitive secrets, and yet -- and yet -- >> and yet.

>> -- and yet he's leading the republican poll. >> and will continue, and i suspect once the january 6th indictment comes down, which everyone is anticipating that that will just continue to lock in a little bit more. so the event in iowa tonight where you have the presidential candidates and i'm sure we'll talk about it later, you know, parading in front of the iowa faithful to sort of make their case will not make their case against donald trump. they will make their case for everything else but donald trump. why donald trump should not be the nominee, and donald trump will come in and he will bemoan and berate and lie and cry victimhood, and they will eat it up. the audience will eat it up. even though he lost iowa last time, it doesn't matter because wherever donald trump is, the conversation is not about the folks just in front of him.

it's about a broader audience, and so he knows events like today, that we saw yesterday, events that may come today or tomorrow or next week are all part of his ongoing narrative against the deep state, and why republicans need to stay hooked to him because as he reminds them, if it weren't for me, they would be coming after you. >> yep. >> and i'm your retribution, and that narrative plays extremely well still -- >> very effective. >> -- despite all the evidence for that base. >> jen palmieri, up front i'll give you the 2016 trigger warning, but it does have to be pointed out that the entire criticism of hillary clinton and her email server -- remember it was that she was wiping the server and she deleted it with bleach bit software about yoga appointments and chelsea's wedding, and now you have this indictment allegedly the former president of the united states ordering his underlings at his beach club to go delete a server. >> i mean, willie when i heard -- i was, like, making

dinner and i heard the words, like, delete attributed to donald trump of delete the server and it's, like -- it just, like, it's so absurd. also the hush emoji, the security footage, all of it seems so absurd, kind of bumbling and then so serious when you see the iran -- understanding that it was, in fact, a document related to u.s., you know, possible plans of if there was a conflict in iran, right? so i think the details matter here. i'm with michael steele. i think there's very little chance that someone can overtake donald trump in the republican primary, but all the smart people in the republican primary who are trying to do that think that it has to start in iowa. there are some really damning details in here, and i've seen focus groups of iowa republican caucus-goers where when they hear the details in the documents case in particular, what was at stake, what he --

what he risked, it had an impact on some people. their big lincoln dinner, you know, that's all happening in iowa. trump will be there. desantis will be there. most of the candidates are going to be there. this is the moment if you are going to try to start making an argument, a real argument against him. maybe somebody will. i kind of -- in that ballroom, i kind of doubt it though, but chuck, there's -- i want to ask you about co-conspirators. there are so -- trump is being charged along with two other defendants. they're considered co-conspirators. i know that changes the rules of engagement here as far as what the -- how some of the -- some of this evidence is being entered into the record, how it's treated and can impact trump where for example, they say the boss wants this done. can you kind of explain how that

works? >> yeah, jennifer. it's a great question. so when you charge a conspiracy and you have co-conspirators, there are rules of evidence that actually help the government at trial for instance, jennifer, if you and i were robbing banks together, and you and i were conspirators in bank robbery, what you say or what i say, if it's a statement made in furtherance of our conspiracy to help it along, and if it's made during our conspiracy can come at a trial against either one of us, both of us. so conspirator statements are a very powerful tool for the government at trial. as you noted, it gives the government an evidence advantage. each conspirator could take on a different role. i could go into the bank with the gun and you could drive the

getaway car. we're both responsible even though we had different roles and conspiracy is a powerful tool for agents and for prosecutors and confers on the government at trial evidentiary advantages and conspirators don't have to be indicted. they can be unindicted. we've seen that too as long as the grand jury in its indictment articulates who are the conspirators are, and what they did, and what roles they took. it confers on the government as i noted, significant advantage at trial. coming up, the latest on senate minority leader mitch mcconnell's health after he froze mid-sentence after a press conference this week and what fellow republican are saying about his leadership. "morning joe" is back in a moment. s leadersh "morning joe" is back in a moment

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some republican lawmakers

this morning are telling nbc news they have concerns about senate minority leader mitch mcconnell and his health and that they personally have witnessed changes in the 81-year-old after he fell and sustained a concussion in march. their comments come following wednesday's incident when the kentucky republican froze for 19 seconds during a press conference before being escorted away from the cameras. none of the republicans are calling on mcconnell to step down yet, and senators next in line for the top job say they are not making succession plans at this time, but the murmurings underscore how the party is struggling to deal with the sensitive health issues of the longest serving senate party leader in american history. nbc news also spoke with other republican lawmakers who stand behind mcconnell and say they have complete confidence in his ability to lead their conference. >> he said he's fine. i take him at face value. you heard him respond to questions yesterday. he was very crisp in his answers.

>> all i know is he's tough. he's been here a long time. >> he has a tremendous amount of support. everyone knows that with one hand tied behind his back, he's still a superior leader to so many people here that i think people still have a lot of confidence in him. >> i think it just may be fatigue. there's been a lot going on. we're doing so many bills. my head is spinning too with all the things we're trying to get done in the next three months. >> mcconnell has served in the senate since 1985. he's not up for re-election until the 2026 midterm elections. you've got new reporting on how the white house is watching all of this. obviously joe biden, an old friend of senator mcconnell's from the senate days. >> no question the two men spoke this week after mcconnell's incident there. had a warm conversation. i am told, but the white house is watching this warily.

mcconnell has been a villain for democrats, but he's become an important partner if you'll, holding back some of the more radical, right-wing forces of republican lawmakers on capitol hill. also willing to keep mccarthy in check and more importantly, willing to keep donald trump in check, and the white house worried about what could come next. mcconnell not expected to run for re-election. so there are -- the white house is already preparing for what that could look like, a post-mcconnell gop, michael steele, but if health forces him to step away before then, but they say it will not be the case, that future could come sooner. i think we both know there are succession plans being discussed. >> absolutely. >> talk to us about what that could look like. >> well, i think there would be a battle for the leadership, particularly if the senate becomes more in play for the -- in the 2024-cycle where it looks like republicans can take the majority again, and i think that

would be one way in which mcconnell could very easily transition out. either way actually, so that battle for the -- for who would then succeed him in the leadership is going to be -- i think it's going to be a lot more intense than people think it is. john thune would be my personal favorite to be honest. i've known him a long time, and i think he's an incredible leader and he has the ability to work with the president across the aisle, you know, in all of that should biden return to office, but there's always going to be that sort of maga-esque kind of backflow with the tubervilles and others. that'll make an interesting story line. what i find interesting right now, particularly in the clips that were played, take out mcconnell's name and stick in biden. >> mm-hmm. >> all right? and so we can -- we can dispense with all the -- oh, ageism stuff

coming from republicans about joe biden because the reality of it is we are -- we are a country that's being led by octogenerians, older individuals, and both parties, you know, are on the pike on this one. so dial it back. be concerned about mcconnell's health as i'm sure people are concerned about biden and dianne feinstein and others. those narratives will play themselves out, but this whole idea that my guy who had this episode in front of national cameras is somehow better than your guy who tripped over a sandbag, is just, you know, we need to -- we just need to put all that crazy aside and move beyond that at this point because their health obviously is important, but you can't drive the politics necessarily that way, and if it's that bad for mcconnell or biden or anyone else, then step out of it. coming up, another moment on capitol hill when senator dianne

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>> the clerk will call the roll. >> senator feinstein. >> um -- >> say aye. >> for me? yeah. >> just say -- >> i would like to support a yes vote on this. it provides $823 billion.

that's an increase of $26 billion for the department of defense, and it funds priorities submitted -- >> we're voting. >> just say aye. >> okay. just -- aye. >> thank you. >> senator durbin, senator reid -- >> aye. >> in a statement to nbc news yesterday, a spokesperson for senator feinstein wrote, trying to complete all of the appropriations bills before recess, the committee markup this morning was a little chaotic, constantly switching back and forth between statements votes and debate in the order of bills. the senator was preoccupied and didn't realize debate had just ended and a vote was called. she started to give a statement, was informed it was a vote, and then cast her vote. so jen palmieri, that's a staffer trying to do his or her job there to protect senator feinstein, but the fact is there are democrats not just whispering about this, but have

gone on the record and called for her to resign including members of the california delegation saying it's time though they appreciate everything she's done and the historic figure she is, time for her to step aside, but it all gets to michael steele's larger point about the age of our leaders. dianne feinstein, president biden. by the way, donald trump who is 77 years old, no spring chicken himself. >> yeah. i mean, it's -- it is sort of wild. i mean, look at that, that this -- that generation that's still in power. i mean, it's not an accident that you see this, but the democratic party and the republican party, it's the, you know, we are i think at the end of an era where you have this -- that generation, and even in some cases, pre-baby boomers in charge of america. i think that's why you're likely to see trump and biden in an election together in the fall of 2024 is we're still not quite -- we're still not quite through this period. that was tough to watch and patty murray, you know, senator

patty murray having to tell her, just say aye. ultimately it's up to either the individual to say it's time to vote or the voters. the voters of california knew how old tie dianne feinstein was when they re-elected her in 2018 -- or 2020 excuse me. oh, it was 2018, and they re-elected her anyway. part of this is voters also weighing in, and i'm sure the white house is not excited to see older politicians have a difficult week, but they have to show not all 80-year-olds are the same, and, you know, show the president vibrant and show the president out and about, and show the president having a great week on the world stage as we saw in europe a couple of weeks ago, delivering rate economic news. that is the way they battle -- they battle this bag.

coming up, much more donald trump's growing legal trouble, and the charges brought by special counsel jack smith's office around the mar-a-lago documents case. "morning joe" is back in a moment. ments case "morning joe" is back in a moment you know with priceline you could actually take that trip for less than all this. i made a horrible mistake. ♪ go to your happy price ♪ ♪ priceline ♪

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♪♪ jamie lee curtis doing a fight scene in last year's best picture "everything everywhere all at once," a role that earned curtis an academy award for best supporting actress. her new film "haunted mansion" inspired by the disney ride of the same name appears in theaters. before the sag-aftra strike

began, joe sat down with curtis for a wide-ranging conversation. >> i'm just going to say a couple of words. "the bear." christmas dinner and donna. >> donna. >> i almost stroked out. that episode almost did me in. >> okay, but you're a "peaky blinders" fan. >> i am. >> the combination of story-telling and great acting in combo "peaky blinders" even though there's a similarity to it, there's a use of current music. there's a visual style and a real commitment in the performances, and so yes. i'm very excited that chris asked me to play donna. >> how did you know a year ago? >> i knew a year ago. >> that when you were watching the first season you were, like, i'm going to be on it. >> what happened was in the first season in the first episode "sugar," brings carmie

the jacket and she says, we don't know anything. we don't know their relationship. we continue know anything, and she says, did you call mom? he said no. she said, i think you should call her. that's all they say. >> right. >> he says, okay, i will. and for some reason, i went, oh, they have a mother. oh, i'm going to play her. >> how did you know that? >> i just -- in the same way i knew i was going to marry christopher guest when i saw his picture in a magazine. >> is that -- >> that's how i married him. i saw a picture in a magazine. >> it must have been a good picture. >> it's just him and a couple of guys in shirts with their arms around each other. >> right. >> i do have a sense. when i have that sense, i'm pretty clear about it. >> wow. >> and by the way, i just had that sense. i went, oh, yeah. i'll play her. then, i think i told my agents, and i'm sure they called them

and said, hey, by the way, jamie thinks the show is amazing as does everybody. >> right. >> and then in january of this year, i got a call from my agent who said that chris had asked if i would play donna. >> what a dream role. >> it was extraordinary for me. he sent me the script. i never met him until i walked on set. we texted like teenagers. i am, like -- i text like a teenager. our communication was just texting. >> you and mika would get along very well. >> give me her number. i will inundate her. >> no. she will wear you down. >> okay. watch this. hold on. >> it's voice. >> i'm going to write her a message now which i'm going to text her after we finish and you're going to give me her number. >> okay. >> hi, mika. period. it's jamie lee curtis, period. i'm sitting here with your very attractive husband, period. no, i'm not hitting on him, period. he's dressed a bit like a preppy, bit works for him, period. that's what i will send to your

wife when we finish, when you give me her text number. >> you have no idea. >> i text, talk. i'm that person, and my family can't tell if i'm talking to them or into my phone. >> none other. that's her. >> okay. well -- >> you two are going to have a good, good time. >> i'm looking forward to it. >> back to "the bear," your scenes, that christmas dinner. i heard you talking about this. we all know a character like this in our life. >> so i knew because it was written who she was. i've seen the show. >> mm-hmm. >> i certainly know the back story. i know the history of the family, and the thing that was most interesting for me is the idea of playing somebody who desperately wants help, but then refuses it, and that contradiction that you're playing both sides of that coin all the time. >> right. >> help me, don't help me. help me, don't help me. help me.

don't help me. >> right. right. >> stop. >> okay. it's okay. >> i just do it all day for them. i worked all day. >> i know. i know. everybody really appreciates it too. >> this is hard. >> what's hard? what's hard, mom? what is it? >> i make things beautiful for them, and no one makes things beautiful for me. >> even in the finale -- >> yeah. >> -- she understands. you see growth. she understands at the end. >> i think she's sober in the finale. >> she knows she needs help, but she doesn't ask for it, but here we are in the finale. >> she does ask for it and then refuses it. >> she refuses the help. >> that combination of when

alcohol and expectation come together which is what christmas dinners are all about -- >> right. >> -- i think her attempt at sobriety is the first time she can understand that there's a cause and effect and she's both, and it's best for her to stay back. >> it's amazing, your own history with fighting addiction. >> yeah. >> and getting through it. >> yeah, yeah. >> we all have friends also that have been struggling with addiction. >> yeah, sure. >> i heard you say something pretty remarkable. it went from generation to generation just like in "the bear," when you said, it stops here. it stops with me. >> i think that the buck stops here idea is an important one for generational addiction. any kind of generational trauma. my worst day was almost

invisible to anyone else. there was in my -- i'm lucky. i didn't make terrible decisions high or under the influence that then for the rest of my life i would regret. there are women in prison whose lives have been shattered by drugs and alcohol, not because they were violent felons, not because they were horrible people, but because they were addicts and i'm incredibly lucky that that wasn't my path. i was -- >> oh. >> i was an opiate addict. >> right. >> and i liked a good opiate buzz. >> mm-hmm. >> if fentanyl was available -- as easily available as it is today on the street, i would be dead. sobriety simply just made it all crystal clear because i'm so hyperly aware of what the alternative is. i've seen it in my own family, my brother at 21 is dead from a heroin overdose. once he was clean and sober and he went out and used one time,

and died from an overdose, and he is one of millions and millions of people whose lives have been extinguished because of addiction. so my gratitude is -- is enormous because i also have this incredible life. >> every day i'm grateful. >> right. >> grateful to get up. >> and we get to grow old. i work with children's hospital los angeles with the charity. >> can i ask you how you got involved there? >> sure. >> obviously that means a lot to you, and you've raised a ton of money, and you know what i love? 100% of this -- >> 100%. >> it's going straight to them. immediately that lets down everybody's guard and it's, like, oh, wait. she's actually doing this for the right reason. >> i make money doing a lot of things. i've talked about it a little bit. i've made a living through violence. my early career, my main career

was an art form that people love, the people who love it are beautiful people. they're not violent people. they happen to love violent movies, horror movies. they love them. >> my daughter absolutely horro. they love them. >> my daughter loves them. we watch everything together. a horror movie comes on, i go, i'll be in the kitchen, baby. >> isn't that funny? but i'm grateful because they gave me an entire career. turning it onto something that truly means something to me, which is helping children heal from critical injuries or illnesses is very important. here's the briefest story. i was making a movie once in pontiac, illinois. it was called "grandview usa."

there was a 13-year-old girl named lori toll who had the first successful heart transplant. she died at 19. i started working with the children's hospital of pittsburgh. i put videos so the kids could enjoy movies while having treatment. kids need less pain management and heal quicker when they are entertained. i was flying to pittsburgh to do work at the children's hospital.

i said, hi, it's jamie lee curtis, how can i help you? they were just raising money for the bond initiatives. we did two california bond acts for the california children's hospital bond act of all the children's hospitals, not just los angeles. we get to look like this. a lot of people are not going to make it to my age. focusing on healing and helping critically ill and injured children is a very important thing to do. >> what an amazing story about how it all began. >> and by the way, there was a second girl at children's hospital of pittsburgh. i met this young cancer patient. we were in a press conference. she was wearing a pink wig. it was like, hi, i'm jamie.

hi, i'm katie. we sat down. people were like, why are you here, jamie? i'm like, to support the hospital and patients like my friend katie here. and katie, why are you here today? she ripped off her wig and on her bald head she had written in sharpie, jamie lee curtis rocks. she went like this, pulled off her wig, tipped her head forward and said jamie lee curtis rocks. needless to say, i started to cry. that night i went to the charity event. i went back to the hospital on my way to the event. she couldn't come because she was immunocompromised. i said could i have your wig? i stood up in front of those 5,000 people, all of whom were there with the best intentions. i stood up in front of those people and i said, my name's

jamie lee curtis. i'm wearing the wig of katie westbrook. she's 11 and she's fighting for her life. she wears this wig so everybody who sees her sees her. she's saying, i am dying and i need you to help me. we raised a fortune that night. when she died, her mom gave me her wig. any time i go and do children's hospital events, i wear katie's pink wig, because i remind people this is what kids who are fighting cancer do when they lose their hair from chemotherapy. >> you talked about going to pontiac, illinois. >> yeah. >> you talked about the movie, said it wasn't any good. >> it wasn't. >> but in the end, it was maybe the most rewarding experience you've had doing a movie. >> i met lori.

>> which led to meeting all these incredible children. >> yeah. just the link of one experience like that. >> some of joe's conversation with jamie lee curtis. ahead in our fourth hour, we'll bring you more of their discussion, including what she had to say about her oscar win this year. also ahead, new charges for donald trump in the classified documents case and a new person charged in the matter. "morning joe" back in a moment. . "morning joe" back in a moment

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there was no deleting like hillary clinton did. there was no servers in the basement like hillary clinton had. what about the server? what about the server? illegal e-mail server. hillary's secret server. how about the server put in the basement? her illegal server. illegal e-mail server. the private server. she shields her criminal activities. illegal server. hillary's illegal server. illegal e-mail server. wipes her server clean. that's okay? these are crimes. >> donald trump's fixation with hillary clinton's e-mail server now coming into a different context that several prosecutors say trump asked an employee at mar-a-lago to delete a server

which contained surveillance video. we'll get into the new indictments tied to the classified documents case at mar-a-lago ahead. welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." 6:00 a.m. out west, 9:00 a.m. here on the east coast. jonathan lemire is back with us. and john heilemann is joining the conversation. eugene robinson. danny cevallos. good morning. as donald trump awaits a likely indictment for his alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 election results, the former president was hit with three new charges yesterday in the separate mar-a-lago documents case. nbc news correspondent garrett haake has the latest. >> reporter: today, former president trump is facing three more criminal charges related to his handling of highly classified documents at mar-a-lago, made public in a new indictment filed by the special

counsel thursday. it charges mr. trump with one additional count of willful retention of national defense information and two additional counts of obstruction. it also adds a new third defendant, mar-a-lago property manager carlos de oliveira. prosecutors say when trump heard of the classified documents from mar-a-lago, he said, quote, i don't want anybody looking through my boxes. and, isn't it better if there are no boxes? the government says the boxes were later moved. after the fbi search of the property, the government demanded surveillance video. the former president called his property manager and spoke for 24 minutes. de oliveira pointed out surveillance cameras and met with a security employee in an audio closet, telling them,

quote, the boss wanted the server deleted. according to the indictment, the employee responded that he, quote, would not know how to do that and he did not believe he would have the rights to do that. the indictment, which outlines various meetings between day carlos day live yer ra had no comment. he's already pleaded not guilty to 37 federal felony charges in the classified documents case bought by the special counsel in june. >> we have one set of laws in this country and they apply to everyone. >> garrett haake reporting. so what this indictment tells you about where this case is headed, how the date of the trial starting may be pushed

back because of it. were you surprised to see this superseding indictment yesterday? >> not only were we surprised at the superseding indictment, we were surprised at the case. we were waiting for an indictment related to the january 6th investigation. i think that's what folks were prepared for. i think a lot of us were surprised this indictment when it came was just a superseding indictment coming not out of d.c., but out of florida in the existing documents case. you ask about timing. i've been saying for weeks now that even though the judge in the documents case set the trial for may of next year instead of the december date that the government wanted, even that may date was unlikely to go forward, not because i have any specialized knowledge, but i know that in cases, just normal cases, things happen, complications come up and dates have to get moved. this is a case involving complex documents, highly sensitive documents and the most consequential criminal defendant

in the history of federal criminal law. so given all of that, high likelihood that something would happen that would extend this trial date out even further. we're only just over a month after the first initial indictment. now we have the superseding indictment and the addition of a new defendant and new charges, almost ensuring that may trial date will get pushed out. the government may argue that's not necessary. i've seen that in some of my own cases where the facts are essentially the same. the judge will say, well, look, there isn't that much new here, we can keep the trial date. but that's not the situation here. you have a new defendant, new allegations, new charges. in all likelihood this may date is getting pushed out. >> so if you look at this new superseding indictment that we just got yesterday, it's very specific in its timeline. it lays out a case and makes the

allegation that donald trump saw the subpoena, new that the fbi was going to come and get the boxes, because donald trump and his team had not given them back and begins a series of events, according to the indictment, these are allegations that he started to instruct his underlings including the property manager and also the i.t. guy to go find these boxes, move them, instructed them as they call him the boss. the boss wants us to delete the server that contained the video footage of what had been happening over the last weeks and months at mar-a-lago. it's kind of an extraordinary story if we just read through the indictment. >> it is. in legal terms, my sense is that this very much strengthens the government's case in terms of donald trump obstructing justice, that he tried to obstruct this investigation, trying to destroy evidence.

it's very important to always have a story to tell the jury. so this shows that he had a motive or goes towards his motive that he was covering up his actions with the movement of the boxes. i think if this works well in court, if there are witnesses that back up this account that are credible, it's a big step forward for the prosecution. >> gene robinson, in terms of an alleged coverup here, ken dilanian said effectively that this makes watergate look quaint compared to what richard nixon did. when you look at the chapter and verse of the story that is told inside this new indictment about what the former president is alleged to have done, to send out people who work at his beach club to literally delete the server according to the allegations in the indictment. >> it makes watergate look

quaint, and yet surprisingly sophisticated. this is so dumb and crude. it's a good thing donald trump didn't decide that he wanted to become a mafia boss. he wouldn't have lasted very long at that. he's not very good at this coverup thing. he does a lot in the open. he gives orders to these low-level employees. it's fairly clear that employee number four decided he or she wanted no part of this scheme and probably is cooperating with the feds. it's just crazy. they say it's always the coverup and never the crime. we should remember that the crime is pretty bad, the crime of keeping our most precious

secrets in the bathroom and the ballroom at his palm beach club. but the coverup really is just gobsmackingly dumb. the day after you're told they're coming after this footage and they want it and you try to have it erased. so much erasing you'll be tired of all the erasing. so much erasing, so much wiping. >> so a coverup complete with flashlights and shush emojis. to danny's point, we were expecting all day here in washington that's the indictment that was coming down. the tv trucks are lined up outside the courtroom. we still think it's a matter of time. but this classified documents case remains so dangerous to trump and the superseding

indictment which plainly spells out coverup, so easily understood by jurors and voters. >> yeah. this case keeps getting worse for donald trump. and the open-and-shut nature of it which only exaggerates how much of a slam dunk this is, got more open and shut yesterday. the other thing is the thing i think everybody who's paying attention is the most important thing in some respects, politically at least, is what's the timeline for getting this case in front of a jury. donald trump's entire life right now is built around running for president in order to try to keep himself from having to go to jail. that's the bottom line here. for him, a day where a case gets worse on the facts for him but gets better on the timeline for

him is probably a trade he's willing to make. the facts were already terrible for him. he was probably going to get convicted in this case, because it is so clear that he violated the law. it's now worse on that front, but the thing has now been kicked out further down the timeline than the special counsel wanted initially. the reality is everything takes longer in the legal system than it's supposed to take. everything takes longer than it's scheduled to take. any reason for delay, anything that complicated the case means it takes longer. it makes it better for trump politically because it increases the odds that this thing won't get in front of a jury, let alone get completed before election day of 2024, when donald trump hopes he will secure the republican nomination and have at least a 50/50 chance of becoming the next president

and making this all go away. >> donald trump and the rest of the republican field will be in iowa this weekend. i will not insult your intelligence or that of our viewers to ask you if you think the other candidates will criticize donald trump for this, what we're learning today in this new indictment, because we're learning they will not. but when pressed by reporters, are you okay with all this? are you okay with a man taking nuclear secrets and war plans to his beach club and obstructing justice and ordering servers to be deleted and telling the property manager what to do and making sure he's loyal. what do they say besides changing the subject to hunter biden? >> oh well, you can't do that to me besides changing the subject to hunter biden. that makes the question impossible to answer. take out people like chris christie or take out people like will hurd, this campaign is not

about the past, this campaign is about the future. this campaign is about how to make america even greater for the american people who are suffering under the tyrannical rule of joe biden and his criminal enterprise of a family and his particularly crimson hunter biden. that's the answer to everything for them. the answer is what joe scarborough would say, look at the bird, look at the squirrel, look at something else. really it's that pivot towards, you know, you guys in the media are just interested in talking about the past. i'm here to talk about the future for the american people in this terrible america we're in now and hunter biden, hunter biden. it all seems like a giant kabuki exercise in the republican field. what all of his rivals say in iowa this weekend or any other

time so far has been utterly irrelevant. trump continues to exercise total dominance over the republican party and no one has figured out a way to make a dent in the hold he has over this nomination fight. >> as john talks about the timing of this and danny suggests the trial may have to be bumped back from that may 20th date, it does raise questions about how not just this case, but the one that is likely coming around the 2020 election, the one that alvin bragg is working on with stormy daniels, that fani willis is working on in georgia, how all these trials fit into the primary schedule and the general location. >> there's a possibility that this case and perhaps a january 6th case and who knows how many cases may still be pending, may not have been resolved before

election day. that raises politically an interesting question. donald trump clearly desperately wants to be the republican nominee and wants to be elected president. if there is a serious challenger on the republican side -- and there really isn't one right now. i guess ron desantis is closest. but if this gets complicated for trump, it becomes an interesting litmus test for the rest of the candidates. will they consider or commit to pardoning donald trump if they get elected president for the good of the country, right? so that's something obviously trump will be very interested in. and if he were not to be the nominee, i think that sort of commitment would probably be a precondition for his supporting the republican ticket. this is going to be a really

interesting political year colored by this legal process that as danny pointed out and as we now see could really drag past election day. >> we've never seen anything like it, a full docket for the former president seeking to be president again. danny, as you read through this new superseding indictment in the mar-a-lago case, there's a very interesting focus on the loyalty of mr. de oliveira. he's the property manager who instructed walt nauta to delete the server. they check on him a lot. we want to make sure carlos is good. can we count on him? they know they've asked him to do something that could get them in trouble. at one point trump calls carlos de oliveira and says, i appreciate your loyalty, i'm going to get you a lawyer.

could you see a scenario where the property manager at mar-a-lago becomes a cooperating witness for the government? >> absolutely. but i would stress that the government probably doesn't need him. they're not waiting with bated breath for him to change his mind and say i'm interested in cooperating. if they were, they would not have indicted it this way. they only indicted de oliveira because they believe they can prove the case without him. that said, if de oliveira or nauta are taking the position that we will stand strong with you, mr. trump, i've seen this before, plenty of u.s. attorneys have seen this before too, that opinion may change over time as time drags on, as this case moves inexorably towards trial, maybe as funds to pay lawyers

diminish or you just start feeling the general pressure of someone who's a private person thrust into the public spotlight. people change their mind about cooperating. a heck no today may change to something else in the future. i wouldn't rule out either of these two codefendants of trump might change their mind and consider cooperating. then the next question is, is the government even interested at that point, because that is often a diminishing offer over time. the government becomes less and less interested. they always try to incentivize your cooperation up front. it's probably reasonable to assume that these other unidentified people in the diet, specifically employee three and employee four, who feature prominently in the indictment, these are folks that did the opposite, that when the government knocks on their door, they raised to provide information. that's why they are anonymous

instead of their actual names. if it was their actual names, they'd probably be codefendants. >> employee number four is the i.t. guy at mar-a-lago who said i can't just delete the servers. david, this new indictment in the mar-a-lago case came as we were all waiting yesterday and the days before this week for a likely indictment in that separate case surrounding the 2020 election and january 6th. what are you hearing about the special counsel and the grand jury's work there and how soon we may hear something? >> colleagues of mine at nbc think that the grand jury will likely meet again next week. they've been meeting on tuesdays and thursdays. we'll have to see what happens there. but to me, if there is another case and if it does surround this fake electors scheme to reverse the 2020 election, we have to see what's in that indictment. none of us know, but this could be the most politically powerful case. this idea of prosecutors wanting a story to tell jurors, there's

been reports that one of the laws they're looking at is a post civil war law that takes away someone's civil rights, including someone's right to vote. the fake elector scheme could allow prosecutors to argue that in the seven states where donald trump appointed fake electors, he was essentially taking away the rights of the tens of millions of voters in those seven states to be counted, that by appointing his own fake electors, he was throwing out all of their votes. that's a simple, powerful narrative to convey to a jury. we don't know what's going to be in that indictment. there might not be another indictment, but there is a grand jury meeting here in washington. we'll see what it results in. >> guys, thank you so much. coming up on "morning joe," the latest economic data the white house says is proof that

so-called bidenomics is working. meanwhile, house lawmakers got an early start to their six-week recess, leaving behind a substantial amount of work that needs to be addressed when they return to washington. and as we head to break, over on nbc on "sunday today" my guest this week is the great steph curry. he's got a new documentary out called "underrated" about always being an underrated skinny kid who people didn't think could do it. we also went to the driving range, hit a few balls after he won that celebrity tournament in tahoe a couple weeks ago. does he have a future in professional golf when he's done in the nba? great conversation with steph curry this weekend over on nbc. curry this weekend over on nbc

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votes are no longer expected in the house tomorrow. last votes, we still have more work to do. don't celebrate too early. >> school's out for the summer. with that, house republicans announced an early start to the august recess, forcing congress to push back the passage of crucial spending bills. the lower chamber is now out for a six-week break, returning in september with just over two weeks to pass a laundry list of bills to avoid a government shutdown. 11 out of 12 spending bills need to pass before a deadline of september 30th. house republicans prefer to cancel scheduled votes after internal discord between gop factions made it obvious they wouldn't have the numbers to pass the bills. democratic leader hakeem jeffries slammed republicans for leaving early. >> the extreme maga republicans are marching the american people and the congress toward a government shutdown. it's in their dna.

extreme maga republicans have shut down the government repeatedly to try to extract extreme ransom demands from the congress in order to jam their extreme right-wing ideology down the throats of the american people. >> meanwhile, the white house is celebrating an economic report yesterday that came through better than expected. the commerce department announced second quarter gdp rose 2.4%, topping the 2% estimate forecast by many economists. the biden administration released a memo stating the numbers are, quote, the latest in a long line of proof points that bidenomics is delivering for middle class families. add to that the fed this week taking away its own forecast that a recession was coming. more good news on the economic front and more of the message for the white house. >> yeah. i had conversations with multiple senior white house

advisors on this very subject yesterday. they're leaning all in. they see the polls that americans have not felt this economic recovery, although that's starting to change a little bit. they certainly don't feel like the white house is getting enough credit for the work they have done. so bidenomics is the mantra around there right now. and the president's schedule is dotted with events talking about economic policy. he's got one up in maine later today. of course, the economy is probably the biggest factor in deciding whether an incumbent gets reelected. but there are risks and rewards, by throwing their arms around the economy like president biden is. is the gamble worth taking? >> yeah. the president has achieved a lot, as we pointed out, for the last couple of years in terms of legislative accomplishments and all the stuff he got done in the

first two years and never got the credit for it you would have expected given the big wins he put on the board. the reason why is the economy. people worrying about inflation, suffering from inflation, worrying about the job market. now it seems like the numbers are about to come together. they're getting and likely to get, if you look at the forecasts coming forward, exactly the perfect economy you want to run for reelection in. the bets they made seem to be paying off. it is the one obviously sure fire way in the history of american politics to get reelected, is to have a strong economy. they're about to get exactly what you want. the big, big thing that is the mean thing for securing reelection is the only thing, it seems, that may have a chance of moing joe biden's numbers into the zone where he can become reelected.

i don't think they have another choice but to embrace the economy. i also think by embracing the economy, they're putting themselves in a very strong position for reelection, at least if historical models and precedent hold through. >> on the one hand, you have a likely republican nominee who could be facing up to four trials during the same year he's trying to be elected president. on the other hand, you have a president who now is coming into a much stronger economy than it has been over the last couple of years with most of the numbers, unemployment, inflation, gdp heading in the right direction. >> yeah. these economic numbers that we've had over the last couple weeks are just a god send for the biden administration. we're having a soft landing. i mean, this is like a goldilocks moment that a lot of very smart people thought was

impossible. now the fed says we've taken recession out of our forecast. 2.4% growth is an excellent number. you compare the united states to any of the developed countries coming out of the pandemic, and we look great. unemployment at 50-year lows. these are good economic numbers. as long as that inflation figure keeps coming down and as long as income continues to rise faster than prices, which has happened over the last four months in a row with no particular end in sight, i think there is time for that perception about the economy to change. president biden is trying to change it, because he's out

there almost every day touting bidenomics, making that a mantra. again, that's a big part of politics, repetition, emphasis. that's what we're going to see and hear, i think, over the months to come. >> we're talking about in the context of politics. the most important thing is it's good for the country as the economy is growing and unemployment is low. eugene robinson, john heilemann, thank you so much. coming up, more of joe's conversation with jamie lee curtis, including what she had to say about the moment she won her oscar for best supporting actor. "morning joe" is back in a moment. acto "morning joe" is back in a moment this is your summer to smile. to raise your glass and reconnect. to reel in the fun and savor every bite.

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the oscar goes to -- >> jamie lee curtis! >> that is the moment jamie lee curtis won the oscar for best supporting actress for her role in "everything everywhere all at once," the first academy award in her decades-long career. joe sat down with jamie lee and spoke about her unexpected journey to winning that oscar and the gift of being inmovies, even the bad ones. >> i love how you embrace the good, the bad and the ugly. it reminds me of jeff daniels. he said, wherever i go, if i go see wounded vets, they don't ask

me about the movies the critics love the most. they say tell me about "dumb and dumber." he said it's a great gift. >> owen wilson for the "haunted mansion" press day. >> which is why disney invited us to be honorary cast members for the day. >> as we were leaving, i'm walking with owen wilson, who's been in a billion movies, such a great guy. he stopped and all of a sudden he answered the questions. you could see their faces. i thought, there you go. >> a great example. >> even the bad movies have fans. >> you have a book, a graphic novel this after "the bear" and

an academy award. >> i did win an academy award. by the way, march 12th. >> that movie is just a crazy script, crazy cinematography, crazy editing, crazy everything. i will say for the first 30 or 45 minutes you sit there and go, where is this leading? and then it all opens up. just a beautiful ending. i was wondering when you won, i said, did you really think when you read that script, hey, i think i'm going to win an oscar for this one? >> i like to remind people, because the movie became something so big and we were wearing fancy outfits. by the end of the run, by the end of the release and enormous

success of the movie, it took on a life of its own. it became so much bigger than any of us ever could have imagined in our lives. we shot in 38 days in an office building in simi valley, california. and then covid hit and it didn't get released for almost two years. the idea that anyone would have had a sense that what we were doing in this weird petri dish of creativity was going to yield not only that movie. i had no idea. the first time i saw the movie was the premier of the opening of south by southwest film festival as the opening night movie. that's when i went, oh! even then, the last thing in the world anyone was thinking was

that there would be a season of shiny things. >> "everything everywhere all at once." [ cheers and applause ] ♪♪ >> even in the fall of last year, the end of the fall of last year, i got a phone call from my agent saying, so we were speaking to a24 about a campaign. i said, a campaign for what? they said, well, they're going to do an oscar campaign. i was like shut the [ bleep ] up! that's not going to happen. i get it that the movie itself and of course michelle was getting so much attention. the editing, as you said, is extraordinary. i thought, oh sure, but the last thing in the world i thought that it would be for me. i've presented at the oscars.

when we walked in, we were sitting in the front row at the academy awards. i sat down, michelle yeoh sat next to me. i went up to each one of them. i'm going to literally do this and you're going to freak out. i literally went up to each one of them in the front row and i bent down at their seat and i went, where are we? he said, what do you mean? i said, where are we? he said at the academy awards. i said why? he said because we're nominated. for what? our movie, which is also nominated. where are we sitting? the front row. i said at the academy awards, okay? and then i moved down to stephanie, same thing.

because that isn't our lives. that isn't who we are. we're not those people. we don't sit in the front row at the academy awards. it was this little tiny movie that could and did and continued to and won [ bleep ] best picture at the oscars. it was mind blowing. >> still hard to believe. >> it's unbelievable. >> just took over the night. >> it's unbelievable. that that happened to that group of people, i mean, just extraordinary. >> your character -- >> deirdre. >> right. she's a tough irs agent. give anybody the opportunity, you see the soft side. she softens up at the end. >> we're all human and we've all been through the ringer of life

in whatever form. deirdre is a forgotten woman, just like evelyn was a forgotten woman. deirdre is one of those forgotten people. they're all over the place. they're everywhere. that they put deirdre into that movie so that she then had that awakening with evelyn was beautiful. i loved representing those forgotten people. >> those two characters actually have a good bit in common. >> yeah, both those people are about as free as i've ever been. >> i want to ask you, you grow up in the shadow of hollywood royalty, and yet all i hear about you from everybody, you

went into households when they would call people from hollywood and say, hey, can you go, a lot of times it was more trouble than it was worth. that's what we're supposed to do. but i'm asking you how did you survive? we hear the crazy stories. >> i was raised by my mom. i give her all the credit for the grounding of her. but beyond that, i've understood that from the beginning. what are politicians? what is the goal? go to a house in iowa. what are you saying? you're saying what do you believe in, what matters to you? well, that matters to her. and she will be your voice in that matter, that issue. that's what we're trying to do

here. we're trying to connect anything, be it politics or pretending to be other people or charitable work or friendships or marriage or being a parent. that, to me, is the real reason we're here. >> i want to ask you one more question. i saw an instagram of you going into the disney store and you had the pride hat on and you thanked disney. it was especially personal for you. you said something about learning from ruby. >> yeah. >> you talked about how you're learning every day. and the bottom line is it's about compassion. it's that line from "a river runs through it," we can completely love those we don't completely understand. don't you wish that the political climate right now, especially on this issue, is to

different than it is? how hurtful is it for you as a mom? >> they demonize trans people. it's awful. it's terrifying. >> it's getting worse. >> every day. >> every day it's getting worse. >> at the bottom line is life is about love. being a parent is about love. i love ruby, love her. people say, you're so great to accept her. i'm like, what are you talking about? >> this is what parents do. >> she's my daughter. this human being has come to me and said this is who i am. my job is to say, welcome home. i will fight and defend her right to exist to anyone who claims that she doesn't.

and there are those people and it's going to be a really challenging time regardless of the political -- i mean, there's a lot of political rhetoric, awful political rhetoric, particularly coming from your home state. i'm so sorry. as you know, my favorite twitter is the waking up in don't say gay florida, someone waking up going gay! obviously i'm trying to learn the most important thing is that i don't know everything. i wake up every day sober saying i don't know everything. i have gone to teachers. i have gone to people and said please educate me, help me learn what the issue is, why that's so important and what the other opinion is so that i can hear both sides. if i only hear one side of an argument or an idea, then i have

no ability to think. the whole idea here is we can think. we have minds to think. as you said, how would you walk through this? there's no handbook. there are people who will be helpful guides. but i get it wrong. i'm learning, i'm trying, i'm human. but the bottom line is, i'm a mom. >> and that was joe's conversation with oscar winner jamie lee curtis. coming up here on "morning joe," baseball's best player puts together one of the most amazing performances the game has ever seen. highlights of shohei ohtani are straight ahead. "morning joe" will be right back. e straight ahe "morning joe" will be right back

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shutout, and there it is, shohei ohtani goes all nine, looking for his first hit of the series, clapping for shohei who goes to the opposite field. his major league leading 37th shot. now with two gone, first player in history to homer in one game of a doubleheader, throw a complete game in the other. oh, he got another one! get going, ohtani has done it again. santa maria, complete game shutout, check, two homers in the night cap. check. >> a compelling argument could be made that no one has ever played the sport of baseball better than shohei ohtani is doing it right now. he had an unbelievable doubleheader yesterday in detroit as you just heard, a complete game, one hit shutout from the mound in game one and

then in game two he hits two home runs in back-to-back at bats before leaving the game with cramps. the angels say he will be fine. we turn now to some sad news out of the music world. london police have said the death of sinead o'connor is not being treated as suspicious. the 56-year-old senger's passing was announce bid her family earlier this week. the irish singer rose to fame for her rendition of prince's "nothing compares 2 u" which catapulted to billboard's number one hit single in 1990. and we also learned of the passing of another influential musician, randy meisner, a founding member of the eagles has died. he was the original bass player and helped form the group in 1971. according to the band, he passed away from complications from chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. he was 77. here he is singing lead on the

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potential indictment for election interference stands as we come on the air. and later new barricades outside a courthouse in georgia as a district attoey