good, morning saturday, july 29th. i'm ali velshi. we're waiting -- while we're waiting to be -- while donald trump is waiting to be indicted, one federal case like, this donald trump was instead hit with more criminal charges than the other federal case for which he is already been indicted. on thursday, special counsel, jack, smith filed three additional counts against trump and his co defended, walt nada, in the classified documents. case nearly two months after they were initially indicted. on top of, that a third defendant was added to the case. carlos de oliveira, who previously served as a valet at mar-a-lago. he's now the property manager of trump's palm beach residents and private resort. the new charges against trump include one additional count of willful retention of national defense information, regarding

a top secret document that trump allegedly showed to a group of people without proper security clearances. at his golf club in penn minister, new jersey. it's an incident that was captured in an audio recording. oth two counts for obstruction charges in an attempt to delete security footage that had not been subpoenaed by the government. it is a surprising turn of events, considering many people including trump's legal team are expected indictment in the 2020 election interference case this week, the one for which trump recently received a target letter from the department of justice. the developments this week underscore the complex and highly perilous legal situation, in which the former president finds himself. it also confirms reports of the special counsel team is not quite done investigating or issuing charges in the mar-a-lago documents case. the superseding indictment includes even more incriminating details which makes it clear that prosecutors believe that trump was directly involved in the attempt to obstruct up csis and to prevent

federal agents -- highly sensitive documents, which he had no right to keep. in one passage, prosecutors described efforts by the defendants to delete surveillance footage, immediately after department -- obtained the subpoena for that video. quote, on to 24th, 2022, at 1:25 pm, trump attorney one, who we notes but no to be devyn corcoran, spoke with trump by phone regarding the subpoena for security camera footage. at 3:44 pm, not a received a text message from a coworker, trump employee three, indicating that trump wanted to see nauta. two hours, later nauta who was scheduled to travel with trump to illinois the next day, changed his travel schedule and again to make arrangements to go to palm beach, florida. nauta provided inconsistent -- to florida. we on june 20, for the next one person that he wouldn't be

traveling with trump the next day because he had a family emergency. and he the shutting emoji's. and now -- he texted a secret service agent that he had to check on a family member in florida. after he arrived he texted the same agent that he was in florida, working. a few paragraphs, later prosecutors, adequate, de oliveira asked in troy -- trump employee five -- nauta one of the trip to remain secret. the twice indicted former president is now facing a total of 74 counts on a host of criminal charges against the two cases in which he's already been indicted. the classified documents matter, hand the manhattan district attorney's probe of the hush money payments that he made to adult actor, stormy daniels, ahead of the 2016 elections. trump is likely to be charged with even more crimes in the days or weeks ahead. fani willis, the district attorney for fulton county georgia is expected to announce

charging decisions soon. likely sometime in august. in her investigation of the efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election, specifically in georgia. two days ago trump's lawyers met with prosecutors in jack smith's office and were told to expect an indictment in the special counsel's federal case waited to the multi state scheme to interfere with the 2020 elections. all right, there's a lot to get here. joining me now is barbara mcquade, a former united states attorney for the eastern district of michigan. she's an msnbc legal analyst. she's the co-host of the sisters in monaco. barbara, good to see you this morning. good for joining us. >> oh, thanks, ali. great to be with. you >> let me, i want to dig into this indictment a little bit. there are specific references to the efforts to delete the security footage. donald trump essence broken on a radio show in which he said it was his footage to delete. you could've deleted anytime he wanted. to that applies to most people, they have security footage, they cut the lead if they want

to, dot, dot, dot, until the feds tell you that they want. it until somebody issues a subpoena. tell me about donald trump's thinking about this versus likely legal reality? >> yeah. you, know his words sound good, perhaps, to someone in many organizations have, what they call, document retention policies or video retention policies, or they delete things every 30 days on a regular basis. but what you can't to is upon receiving notice from the government that you are under investigation, that they want something, to then deleted it. that is the essence of obstruction of justice. so, the idea here is the timing of all of this, matters very much. and it shows what prosecutors referred to as consciousness of guilt. that the evidence that is on this video will be incriminating, so, therefore, we have to destroy it. sometimes, you hear that phrase cover-up is worse than the crime. it is because it tends to show the person knows that what they did was wrong, so, it really undermines trump's claims

throughout this case that he had every right to have these documents. he was doing nothing wrong by repeating them. if that was the case, why do you have to delete tapes that show you have these very documents, and your moving them around? >> let's talk about carlos de oliveira. this is trump employee number three. what does the inclusion, the addition of this third defendant, in addition to new charges against walt nauta and donald trump, what does this mean? what is the relevance of this particular third defendant? he seems to was once a pretty junior guy there, who was a ballet at mar-a-lago. then, he became the property manager. how does this figure into the whole equation? >> my sense is especially with the timing here, ali, that one, point the justice department was probably trying to flip him, tournament away government witness. he is certainly a lower level persons involved in all of this. but he lied to at least, according to the allegations in the superseding indictment, when he was asked about boxes and video and all of these things, i don't know anything about.

it and it appears that the evidence shows that he very much did know everything about it. there is a appears to be a witness identified as trump employee for, who had direct conversations about their efforts to delete these videos. so, he'd be a great witness for the government, but if he doesn't want to come in and participate as a witness, he can be a defendant. those are often the conversations i would have with people. so, we now have three. it does complicate matters just a little bit. i think it gives donald trump just a little bit of wiggle room to argue for another delay in the trial dates. but i think it helps prevent the picture of as, we said, this consciousness of guilt evidence, which i think it's what really distinguishes this from the kind of accidental retention we saw by mike pence, and joe biden. >> the alleged lying is part of this. this description are that they talk about the interview of carlos the oliveira. and they specifically almost feels like the interviewer is giving carlos an opportunity to

say that he did this at someone's direction, or this is what happens. he just doesn't, know it is like reading it is like reading a mob novel. he justice, no don't know anything about this. never heard of anything of this nature. does the actual charge, is that a continuation of the effort to get him to flip? nobody probably cares all that much about whether carlos de oliveira is charged in this whole thing. but he clearly has information, according to the indictment. >> yeah, my guess is walt nauta and carlos de oliveira were interviewed in very similar ways. it says that the interviews recording on video, which is now standard operating procedure at the fbi, to make sure that there is no coercion in an interview. and it looks like they were trying to, you know, encourage them to tell the truth. did someone tell you to do this? did someone put you up to this? giving them every opportunity to explain why he might have done this thing. persisted in what is referred to as his loyalty to donald trump, in this case, so, at some point, prosecutors and

agents give someone every opportunity to cooperate. if they don't want to unveil themselves of it, they find themselves on the wrong side of the tv. the united states versus carlos the olivia. >> and that's a big deal. you need good lawyers to defend yourself against the government. why do people do this? it's it because, on his own, carlos de oliveira maybe couldn't afford the lawyers necessary to do? this is it because he's being paid by a trump super pac? and fealty? why do sort of junior people stick by folks like trump or leaders of these organizations? >> i don't know. i've seen this happen in all kinds of organizations. organized crime, political administrations, drug trafficking organizations. i think they are aligned with someone they see as the leader. they see the government as the enemy, and all costs, they will cling to their loyalty. but i do see that over time, oftentimes, you'll see someone ultimately decide once a lawyer

gets involved and explains to them the likelihood of a conviction and the consequences of that, that they can change their mind. so, someone could change around even after they're charged, all the way through up to trial. sometimes, it's not until you get very close to the trial date that sort of moment of reckoning that someone racist their hands as okay, i think i feel how this is going to go for me. i wish to cooperate. so, sometimes, people calculate that loyalty is worth it. maybe it's horses. canisters go to prison for their bosses all the time. maybe they've calculated it is worth it in the long haul. i don't know. we'll see. it's difficult to know what motivates people to vote for donald trump. >> that is. barbara, good to see you as always. thank you, barbara mcquade's former united states attorney and msnbc legal analyst. with me now is undemocratic representative, stacey plaskett, of the united states virgin islands. she previously served as a house manager during the second impeachment trial of donald trump in 2021. representative, good to see you. i definitely thought you would say we're going to be talking at the other case, you know, we kept hearing about activity in

the special, in the grand jury and the special counsel to work. it ends up being more of this. we are still on indictment watch in the other case, and given that donald trump got a target letter more than a week ago, what is your expectation of what's likely to happen? >> yes, good morning. it seems that it's never-ending charging of the former president. well, i'm not really sure how far along the grand jury is in this other case. that being the attempt to overturn the 2020 election. by former president trump. and his associates. and so we can't really say with any specificity or timeline when that's going to happen. because we believe that trump and his, we'll, trump's attorneys went into the special counsel this week to have a discussion about the case that i would say that you know, i'm

going to just go out there on a limb and say we've got another week, at least, before an indictment comes along. i would think that, you know, we see that jack smith is incredibly meticulous. so, i don't think he's going to move faster than the evidence leads him to do so. >> as donald trump has the legal machinations continue against him, he continues to escalate its attacks on the escalation of the department of justice as being weaponized against him. your colleagues in the weaponization subcommittee, not you, but your republican colleagues, are helping him in that effort. >> that's very concerning. you know, of course you would expect, in any congress, to have the majority of one side, when there is a precedent from the other party bringing accusations and having oversight over that

administration. we see that time and time again. but what's more instinctual, sadly, and what's more damaging to our democracy as a whole, it's the fact that the weaponization committee, led by chairman jim jordan, is one floating conspiracy theory that is not based on fact. that are eroding americans confidence in the american system. but also, really continue to put pressure on the department of justice, as well as the fbi. which leads them vulnerable to, should there, in 2024, b an election that jim jordan and maga republicans do not feel went their way, to have them then move against the government itself? that's very troubling, and that's something that we are constantly pushing back both on the committee, you all in the fourth pillar, in the media, and i just think that that

something we should be very, very conscious of. >> donald trump also repeated his attacks against the department of justice. i want to remind people, you actually worked for the department of justice. against the fbi during an appearance in iowa last night. he also noted that he is way ahead in the polls against republican primary opponents, and that is true. what's your sense of whether an indictment or two in the 2020 election interference case, and the january six insurrection, what impact is that going to have on the political needle for donald trump? until now, with the hush monaco, with mar-a-lago, for better or for worse, some people could argue that it's not as relevant to become exercise as election interference is. >> true. you know, i think that they're all very important. we know that the case that is going on in fulton county in georgia is a case, should he be found convicted, he does not have the ability to absolve himself or pardon himself, should he become president

again. in the case of the mar-a-lago documents, or seeing with jack smith is continuing added charges and letting us know that that investigation is not done. and listen, espionage is an enormously serious crime. to be considered, to be charged with, and to be found guilty of. but in the january 61, we know that this is, has been building since january six. with the impeachment, the committee that did such an amazing job of bringing trump former employees to testify against the former presiden but we know that among his base, you know, everything is cooked in. they are entrenched in their support for him. what's even troubling is seeing that many republicans view the importance of january six less and less. what we have to be assured of is that there are good americans out there, independents, democrats, and those who do not want to be

bothered, republicans who do not want to be bothered and saddled by this president, his rhetoric, and the want to get on to the business of what americans care about. are we able to pay for our children? school can we have wealth creation. ? can we afford a home? can we pay our bills? it's inflation coming down? and those are the things that i know that the democratic leadership and president biden is spending this entire summer talking about. and showing americans stuff that is what we're concerned with, and we're going to continue to hear the false narrative and the rhetoric of trump as we go into an election cycle. democratic representative stacey plaskett of the united states virgin islands. always appreciate your time. fixer joining us this morning. >> thank you. thanks so much. >> all right, still to come, we're going to look at another possible indictment brewing for donald trump. this one in fulton county, georgia. legal experts say the district attorney fani willis could potentially use a specific legal strategy that's been used

to take down the mafia and other factions of organized crime. plus, today's velshi banned book club, peter disheartening book called the best at it, it follow seventh grade rahul on his journey of self discovery and self acceptance. the author, the actor and author, malik potentially, will join me here in the studio. tv: try tide power pods with 85% more tide in every pod. who needs that much more tide? (crashing sounds) everyone's gonna need more tide. it's a mess out there. that's why there's 85% more tide in every power pod. -see? -baby: ah. ♪ ♪ ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ i'm saving with liberty mutual, mom. they customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. you could save $700 dollars just by switching. ooooh, let me put a reminder on my phone.

on the top of the pile! oh. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ my little family is me, aria, and jade. just the three of us girls. i never thought twice about feeding her kibble.

but about two years ago, i realized she was overweight. she was always out of breath. that's when i decided to introduce the farmer's dog to her diet. it's just so fresh that she literally gets bubbles in her mouth. now she's a lot more active, she's able to join us on our adventures. and we're all able to do things as a family. ♪ get started at betterforthem.com with the freestyle libre 2 system, know your glucose level and where it's headed. no fingersticks needed. manage your diabetes with more confidence. freestyle libre 2. try it for free at freestylelibre.us

(mom) the moment i loved our subaru outback most... try it for free at was the moment they walked away from it. (daughter) mom! (mom) oh, thank goodness. and that's why our family will only drive a subaru. (vo) subaru. more iihs top safety pick plus awards than any other brand. love. it's what makes subaru, subaru. >> all right, we've been

telling attention to special counsel jack smith and his forthcoming federal indictment of donald trump over his efforts to overturn the 2020 election results. but as that's happening, there's another possible indictment rubbing in georgia. over trump's alleged attempt to overturn the results in that state. for months, the fulton county district attorney, this woman, fani willis, as indicated that indictments would likely come sometime in the early weeks of august. that time is now almost upon us.

barricades of already got up in front of the courthouse. as for potential charges, there is still unclear, but there are a number of legal wealth looks that fani willis could use to potentially prosecute trump, and some of his allies. one specific strategy that legal experts say is likely against the use of george's anti racketeering law, also known as rico. rico stance for racketeer influenced and corrupt organizations act. you certainly have heard about it on tv or in the movies as a way to bring down organized crime. but it refers to crimes in which participants set up a scheme or a racket. generally, for profit, broadly, for some illegal benefit. willis is well known for using rico to bring down high-profile criminals in georgia. in fact, according to the washington post, the use of rico in fulton county has exploded since willis took office. now, george's rico act takes inspiration from the federal rico statue that was signed into law in 1970 by then-president richard nixon. the law helped to effectively

dismantled the mafia in the 1990s. rico was a legal game-changer, because it made it easy to prosecute multiple people who were part of a bigger criminal enterprise, all at once. rico focuses on a larger pattern of criminal activity, rather than isolated offenses, and it gives prosecutors the ability to weave compelling narratives about the crime at hand. they could couldn't consolidate complex criminal conspiracies under a single, unified theory. bringing all the parties associated to justice in one fell swoop. rico is not just use against the mafia. it's been effectively employee to take down other criminal entities before, whether they're drug dealers or gangs or corrupt corporations or other groups of individuals, working together to commit large-scale crimes. using rico is particularly advantageous one pursuing someone like donald trump, who is an expert in plausible deniability. often delegates tasks to lower level aides. but here's what makes george's racketeering statue so

powerful. it is broader than the federal version. it allows prosecutors to charge for crimes committed in other jurisdictions and states, as long as they're part of a quote, a larger pattern of criminal activity. in this case, the larger pattern of activity being trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election in georgia, if the a willis does pursue a multi state racketeering charge, legal experts predict that this case could make history. pushing the boundaries of that law. after a quick break, i'll speak to lindsey barrett, a former assistant u.s. attorney from georgia. georgia. game today? (hero fan) uh, yea. i have to watch my neighbors' nfl sunday ticket. (josh allen) it's not your best plan. but you know what is? myplan from verizon. switch now and they'll give you nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv, on them. (hero fan) this plan is amazing! (josh allen) another amazing plan, backing away from here very slowly. (fan #1) that was josh allen. (fan #2) mmhm. (vo) for a limited time get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. a $449 value. plus, get a free samsung galaxy s23. it's your verizon

♪ ♪ ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ >> before the break, i told you about, fulton county investigation into don trump in a size for their alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 election, and the states rico statue, the district attorney fani willis could use to prosecute them. we don't know whether she will or not. but this is speculation. for more on, that i'm joined by

lindsay barrett. she's a former assistant u.s. attorney for the northern district of georgia, who specialized in public corruption and economic crimes. she is the founder of the firm, apparently. lindsay, thank you for joining us this morning. >> my pleasure, ali. think. you >> i would love to rip apart my explanation about rico. we were trying to do the best job we can, but i want to get this as right as we can. what did we miss? >> really, you nailed it on the head. georgia's broader. georgia's rico is broader than the federal rico statue, and in some important ways, one thing i would emphasize, though, is that in the finding an enterprise under federal law, that enterprise has to be ongoing. it is usually referred to, these days, actually, you almost never see a federal prosecution where it doesn't involve an established organization like a gang. that is where it's usually used. in georgia, conceivably, the criminal enterprise could be as fleeting as a day or two. it can be a loose a volition, as people who come together for some brief purpose. so, for that reason, depending

on how you know, the a willis defines the enterprise, it could encompass the entire campaign. it could encompass ones of activity. we just don't know at this point. >> that is a very interesting discussion. in this particular instance of the overturning the election, you don't know who's on who's team for how long, and how much of how much went into putting the team together. but there are a bunch of teams that happen, that sounds like the things that those of us who only know racketeering from tv shows or movies would think are happening. and organized effort to overturn something for some benefit. the potential influenced of witnesses, these phone calls that sort of, we associate with sort of mob behavior. >> correct. correct, and another thing, you know, the enterprise itself doesn't have to be criminal. sometimes, it is. in the case of a gang. but fani willis really gains notoriety, the case that made her as a prosecutor was about 14 years ago, when she brought charges against t-shirts, principles, and the

superintendent of atlanta public schools, charging rico, and the criminal enterprise was the atlantic public school system. so, the enterprise itself could be wrong. i could see this indictment making that case, but the criminal enterprise is the campaign, which engages in a lot of lawful activity. but then, the amendment which, focuses on specific acts of racketeering that she believes were committed through the campaign, and so we could see it be as broad and, in my opinion, overreaching as what we saw with the atlanta public schools investigation. >> let me ask you about an article written by hugo lowell, the reporter. he says the racketeering statute in georgia is more expensive, as he pointed, out then is federal counterpart. notably, because any attempts to solicit or coerced the qualifying crimes can be included as predicate acts of racketeering activity, even when those crimes cannot be indicted separately. can you tell me a little bit more about what you go is writing about? >> sure. let me give you an example. it's an example coming on right

now in fulton county, on enactment right by the ableist's office. so, they've alleged a huge criminal conspiracy and a racketeering enterprise involving rappers. so, young thug easily defendant. the criminal enterprise is his record label and what she classifies as a gang, young slimy life, why, celso, there are a number of people brought into that activity. some of those people, who are charged in the case, are charged because they made posts on social media saying you know, something about why ezell. posted pictures of themselves with why ezell tack to, sort wrote some lyrics that describe ysl. so, what we considered protected first amendment activity, d a willis has, in the past, taken the position that that protected activity, if it is encouraging in any way, the racketeering enterprise, the criminal activity that those acts are parts of the enterprise.

and you know, whether that theory survives appeal, because it is protected activity, we'll see. and a lot of people could make the argument that some of the conflict she is looking at here, petitioning your government, you know, maybe not the former presidents conduct, but a lot of people on the outside, i expect there will be arguments that that was protected activity. and that it does not fall within the gamut of rico, but she clearly thinks it does. >> that's interesting. you know, for a lot of people, i think who are following this case, casually, they may not know about all those things. pretty much everybody knows about the phone call. i want to read to you a quote by torrey lawton, the reporter. it's not clear what exactly the charges relate to, but influencing witnesses could refer to trump's phone calls, begging the georgia secretary of state, brad raffensperger, to find 11,780 votes. the exact amount needed to flip the states election results to trump. the racketeering charge would lead prosecutors point to that data breach as part of a pattern of behavior to corruptly keep trump in office.

i only ask you about this because anybody waiting for this charge wants to know if it relates to that phone call. >> 100%. i mean, the phone call, i think, would be the smoking gun, at least as, to the former presidents culpability from a charging standpoint. but anyone else that the dea believes was involved, for example, this doesn't get mentioned a lot, but there was a phone call from senator lindsey graham and he was actually called in. he was subpoenaed to testify before the grand jury, that you, know is arguably within the ambit. so, that phone call to brad raffensperger is the thing that people talk about, but there's a lot of other activity, including activity that took place solely in other states. depending on how broadly you to find that enterprise, as long as it further the overall goal, which is what she's going to argue, the overall flow meaning to improperly influence the election, it could all be brought in in georgia. >> lindsay, i am a lot smarter about this as a result of this conversation, as arrive you

are. sticker summit for joining us this morning. lindsay baroness former assistant united states attorney in the northern district of georgia. this conversation is going to become very relevant when we start to see the indictments coming out of georgia. all, right donald trump, the current 2024 republican front runner, facing federal several and civil trials on the campaign trail. the republican primary shaping up to be even more unpredictable than usual. we'll have more on, that next, on velshi. on velshi. t® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv why didn't we do this last year? before you were preventing migraine with qulipta®? remember the pain? cancelled plans? the worry? that was then. and look at me now. you'll never truly forget migraine. but qulipta® reduces attacks, making zero-migraine days possible. that blocks cgrp - and is approved to prevent migraine of any frequency. to help give you that forget-you-get migraine feeling. don't take if allergic to qulipta®. most common side effects are nausea,

constipation, and sleepiness. learn how abbvie could help you save. qulipta®. the forget-you-get migraine medicine™. meet the team... behind the team. the coach. the manager. and the snack dad. all using chase to keep up with their finances. the coach helps save goals here, because she saved for soccer camp there. anddd check this out... the manager deposited a check. magic. and the snack dad? he's getting paid back. orange slicesss. because this team all has chase. smart bankers. convenient tools. one bank with the power of both. chase. make more of what's yours. when you shop wayfair, chase. you get big deals for your home - every day. so big, we'll have you saying... am i a big deal?

yeah you are, because it's a big deal, when you get a big deal. wayfair deals so big that you might get a big head. because with savings so real... you can get your dream sofa for half the price. wayfair. it's always a big deal. ♪ wayfair, you've got just what i need ♪ so, i got this app from experian. it's got everything i need to help my finances. got my fico® score, raised it instantly, i even found new ways to save. all right here. free. and fast. see all you can do with the free experian app. download it now. my cpa told me i wouldn't qualify for the erc tax refund, so i called innovation refunds. their team of independent tax attorneys will work with your cpa to determine if

your company is eligible. [whip sound] take the first step to see if your small business qualifies. age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv >> all right, just a little bit,

we're going to dive into this meeting of the velshi banned book club with the actor -turned-children's book author, maulik pancholy, on his middle great novel, the best at it. award winning and semiautobiographical, but look follow seven trader hulk portion of self discovery, and eventually, self love. the best at it juxtaposes areas topics, including sexual identity, community, and mental health, with charming characters and a heartbreakingly authentic plot. the book is an important three for parents and children, who have ever experienced the rollercoaster of adolescence, and, yet it's been banned in numerous school districts across florida and texas. you don't want to miss my conversation with the book's author, maulik pancholy, coming up next hour. but, first the new batch of charges as of the stakes for the 2024 republican primary. we're going to speak with the political strategist and -- who's got his finger on the pulse of the american public. s fing the people who live and work there.

because you call these communities home, and we do too. pnc bank. the virus that causes shingles is sleeping... in 99% of people over 50. it's lying dormant, waiting... and could reactivate. shingles strikes as a painful, blistering rash that can last for weeks. and it could wake at any time. think you're not at risk for shingles? it's time to wake up. because shingles could wake up in you. if you're over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist about shingles prevention. did you know most dish soaps don't remove all the grease, even with scrubbing? (whaaat?) i just cleaned those. try dawn platinum. it removes 99% of grease and food residue. that's why dawn is trusted to save wildlife affected by oil. dawn platinum cleans to the squeak.

(woman) what would the ideal weight loss program look like? to save wildlife affected by oil. no hunger, no cravings, no isolation, more energy, lasting results, and easy. is that possible? it is with golo. these people changed their lives with golo without starvation dieting. whether you have 100 pounds to lose or want to shed those final 20, try golo for 60 days and never diet again. (uplifting music) >> we're just about six months hi, i'm todd. i'm a veteran of 23 years. i served three overseas tours. i love to give back to the community.

i offer what i can when i can. i started noticing my memory was slipping. i saw a prevagen commercial and i did some research on it. i started taking prevagen about three years ago. i feel clearer in my thoughts, my memory has improved and generally just more on point. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription.

to go until the first republican primary of the 2024 cycle headlines, about pulling about republican candidates rising and falling in popularity which, by the way, tends to happen in these things. particularly in the early days. buckle up. because the rollercoaster that is the republican primary is just getting the top of its first peak. it's going to be even more unpredictable with the front runner facing several federal and civil trials along the way. on august, september 23rd, fox news will host the first debate of the presidential race in milwaukee. 13 republican candidates running so far for the nomination for the republican nomination, the republican national committee has set some rules to separate the low polling candidates. so, in order to qualify by august 21st, candidates must have 40,000 unique donors and of those 40, 000, they must need at least 200 unique donors per state, in at least 20 states.

they also must be pulling at 1% or greater in three national surveys, or to national and one early states poll. and, this is a big and, they must sign a loyalty pledge to the republican party, vowing to support the parties eventual nominee, whomever that may be. that they will not participate in any non-rnc sanctions debates. right now, the candidates qualified for the debates are the former president, donald trump, florida governor, ron desantis, the biotech entrepreneur, effect of a swami, the north carolina governor and former you invested, nikki haley. the south carolina senator, tim scott, former new jersey governor, chris christie, and the north dakota governor, doug burgum. notably still missing is the former vice president, mike pence. it's still not entirely clear, also, whether donald trump, the front runner, it's going to participate in the debate. he said he won't. my next guest says it won't matter. frank luntz tweeted quote, millions will be watching trump or know trump. the winner of that debate will

raise lots of money and see a noticeable bump in popularity. franklin's is a thing that, republican strategist, pollster of words that work. what you say, it's what people here. frank, good to hear in person. >> good to be here, thank. you >> let's talk about this, first of, all this debate. donald trump said he may not participate, and in typical trumpiest dial. we don't know what he's thinking, but he always wants to keep everyone guessing. he must keep in the news cycle. why would he? why wouldn't? and why does it matter? >> why wouldn't he is because he is so far ahead. we've never had a republican, with this much of a lead in modern times. so, why put yourself at risk? why take any chance of seeing something you are going to regret later, which trump does all the time? and yet, why he should? every single candidate is going to criticize him. everyone from chris christie to run the census is going to say we must do better. if i were trump, i would probably recommend not do it and the risk is too much.

>> more to lose than gain. >> exactly. >> he, in iowa, last time around, 2016, when he didn't participate and gave ted cruz not only a bump, but a bump that kept ted cruz in the race until close to the end. ted cruz got more life out of that than anybody thought he would. who gains if donald trump stumbles? >> what's different between iowa and new hampshire. it's just something fibers need to know. the iowa voters are much more religious, much more values voters, and i think tim scott is the one to watch in iowa. in new hampshire, where it's much more economic and they tend to vote for the candidates that are more direct in your face, i think chris christie has been moving. he's now in double digits in new hampshire. in south carolina will be different than those three, so, you can't make a conclusion but you can say is every single time donald trump is indicted, his numbers go up. and once again, we're having the same thing. we've been talking about this upcoming indictment for five

days now. that means trump controls the agenda until we know when he spent indicted, he is sitting there on to social media, giving speeches, talking about once again, why he is a victim and why he's being persecuted. i use that word specifically. if the justice department and the various attorney generals keep doing this, donald trump world, could end up as the nominee, simply by promoting victimhood, saying the government's against him. you can't do that anymore. trump is so different, if you want to challenge him, you have to behave like he behaves. defined the agenda. set the context. stop allowing these four days, five days, between the assumption of an indictment and the actual. >> what is this victimhood stuff? it is bs but it has worked a lot in history. it's what really, really well. why does it work on republicans today? >> because they feel like they are oppressed. they do. i know that the worse.

i know what your twitter is going to be like when i say. this >> you being here, you know what my twitter's going to be like. i like you, you and i have a nice relationship, some are going to keep talking. >> i appreciate that. that is part of solving this. which is a willingness to hear people out. a willingness to at least listen. you can reject the other perspective but at least here it. the reason why trump voters are so angry is that they think they have been ignored, forgotten, and betrayed, even. and they think the federal government has been weaponized, and they want that to change. >> let's talk about, i want to pull up a poll. this is ohio. we've been talking about new hampshire and iowa. let's look at ohio. it actually defies what a normal thing is. donald trump is way ahead, 64%. the gop voters likely voters in the primary. vivek ramaswamy, very, very distant second. desantis is a third. that, mike pence comes in. fourth the bottom to their, chris christie and asa hutchinson, along with will

hurd, who is pulling at lower. those three are the three who are prepared to do what you've said. come up with a different narrative, a different story. it's not necessarily about donald trump. chris christie came out swinging the other day in new hampshire about everybody. criticized biden, he criticize trump, he criticize nikki haley, criticize tim scott. has any of that, is there anything to any of that stuff? will any of that work? >> that polling data, i was shocked when i saw that pole in ohio. it's happening all across the country. ron the santas is imploding. and i don't understand why, but i kind of do. when you vote in a primary early in iowa, you hampshire, south carolina, you are not just voting for a record. you're voting for an individual. and he's not shown as effective and give intake. i wonder what he would be like sitting here across from you, and it's genuine retail politics. it's not just about the issues. it's about the person. arguably, desantis should be

doing much, much better. he's raised more money than god. and yet, the more money he races, the lower he sinks. his donors arctic that him. i think the reason why is they have seen in him what they don't like a joe biden, the weaponization of government. they've seen how he's gone after private companies in florida, and they think if i don't like it from joe biden and the democrats, why should i like it from the republicans? and if i were advising desantis right now, i would tell him, cut it out. it may have gotten you up to this point, but it will not get you to where you want to go. if it's not right for the democrats, it's certainly not right for the republicans. >> to be clear, there hasn't been weaponization by joe biden, but there is a narrative among republicans that there has been. including a committee, which jim jordan said that argues that case. >> and i keep saying to them, stop it. stop the politicization of everything, because it's creating a polarization. if i say something that will shock. you there's actually something more important than an election. it's the country itself.

we are a razor's edge right now. it keeps getting worse and worse. you can push the country off the edge. when you have 40% who don't believe in their democracy, 35% who believe elections are being stolen, and mostly, on the republican side. we have a problem in this country. we need to chill out, listen more, yelled, less and open ourselves up to different points of view. it's not happening. and we could lose our country as a result. >> okay, i've got one other question for, you but i want to take a quick break, pay the bill, come back, franklin's. we're going to talk about a potential third party run and joe manchin. who that hurts and who that helps, after the break. helpfter

every business deserves a great deal. that's why comcast business is launching the mobile made free event. with our business internet, new and existing customers can get one year of unlimited mobile for free. it's our best internet. powered by the next generation 10g network and with 99.9% reliability. plus one line of free mobile for an entire year. it's the mobile made free event-happening now. get started for just $49.99 a month.

plus, ask how to get one free line of unlimited mobile. >> got a couple minutes left in comcast business, powering possibilities. this hour, franklin says back with us. frank, there is a conventional wisdom out there that if joe manchin runs for president under this no labels party, it's actually a conservative ploy to get donald trump elected because joe manchin is a democrat. we'll take more moderate voters away from joe biden, donald trump becomes the president again. you disagree with that. you think joe manchin well actually draw more trump voters away and he will biden voters. now, i follow your polling and your work. but that's on conventional thinking. >> i realize that. and i can only imagine what the debate will be like. trump says he won't participate in the general election debates. we went through this once before with ronald reagan and john anderson, and that forced

jimmy carter to participate. it wrecked carter's campaign. academicians. joe manchin holding up his hands to joe biden saying, enough. holding's hand up to donald trump and saying, enough. right there in the debates. that worked, enough, the exclamation points our majority of americans think about american politics. and joe manchin draws more votes to republicans because democrats don't like him. democrats think that he held up joe biden's agenda, and they're angry. republicans, he is an example of someone who is enough of a concern for divorce entrance that they can vote for him. right now, it is 70% of the boat -- >> ross perot. style >> double ross perot. >> he ended up with 17 or 18%. >> 90%. manchin has the potential to do much better than that, and fortunately, it's not ain't no labels party. it truly becomes an independent party. joe manchin runs with the

democrat, you create that unity ticket. he is viable. >> when you say hold his hand up the biden isn't enough. enough of what? enough of an economy? enough of interest rates that worked to fight inflation? enough of wage gains? and that's a manufacturing jobs? enough of holding russia to account? what do people want? joe biden is doing those things. i'm not carrying water for joe biden. what is the enough? what do you want joe biden to stop doing? >> and end the partisanship. an end to anger. an end to dismissing what trump voters, not many that watch here, but the idea that we stop with this biden trump republican democrat. the idea that what comes first is the country. enough of the yelling at each other. and it may not be joe biden! it may be the squad. it may be people on the left, bernie sanders, elizabeth warren, just enough of the politics as usual. can we all get down to this conversation that you and i are having right now? can we listen to each other? can we learn from each other? >> do you think of partisan

politics, you see this everywhere in the world. >> yes, but it's never been this bad. we've never thought of each other as evil. we've never been so dismissive of each other. i don't think a conservative voter in kentucky is trying to destroy the country. i don't think a liberal voter in massachusetts is trying to destroy this country. so many americans now do. and we saw resent each other, and that's when manchin is so different. he is basically saying look. let's stop with the criticism, and let's focus on the solutions. >> i think we have to discuss this a little bit more. frank, thank you as always. pleasure to be with us. >> great questions. >> -- is the author of the book, what americans really want, really. still ahead, that proceeding incitement against donald trump in the mar-a-lago documents case, underscores the complex legal situation that the former president finds himself in. another hour of velshi begins, right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> good morning.

it's saturday, july the 29th. i'm ali velshi. all week, we expect to see donald trump indicted for his efforts to interfere with the 2020 election. but instead, he was hit with more criminal charges in the other federal case, for which he is already been indicted. on thursday, special counsel jack smith filed three additional counts against trump, and his co defendant, vault not to, in the classified document case. nearly 12 months after they were both initially invited. on top of, that a third defendant was added into the case. carlos de oliveira, who previously served as a valet at mar-a-lago, and is now the property manager of trump's palm beach residents and private resort. the new charges against trump include one additional counts of willful retention of national defense information, regarding a top secret document that trump allegedly showed it to a group of people without proper security clearances, and his golf club in bedminster, new jersey. and incident was captured in an audio recordings. the other two counts are obstruction charges, related