all right, coming up on the

second hour of ayman. our coverage of donald trump's criminal exposure continues with new indications that jack smith might be days away from indicting the ex president again. plus, how trump ropes his employees and you giving him cover by allegedly breaking the law for him. and the desperate attempts by kevin mccarthy and house republicans to pull focus from trump's legal focus. i'm ayman, let's get started. we begin this hour with major developments in a special counsel jack smith's investigation into donald trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election. as the justice department appears to be nearing a possible indictment, the situation kicks into high gear this week went according to resources, trump's attorneys met with prosecutors in smith's office. two sources told nbc news that at the meeting, trump's lawyers were told to expect an

indictment. of course, the ex president is disputing that characterization. in a post on his official social media site, trump said his attorneys had a productive meeting with doj prosecutors, and that they spent the meeting quote, explaining in detail that i did nothing wrong. i was advised by many lawyers and that an indictment of meat will only further destroy our country. he also wrote that no indication of notice was given during the meeting, referring to a potential indictment. as the new york times reports, these gatherings are often used by defense lawyers as a last-ditch effort to argue against charges being filed. and it's clear trump and his legal team have been on high alert since prosecutors reportedly sent a target letter last week, which signals that indictment is imminent. and there is good reason to be on edge, because according to new reporting, also from the new york times, even as smith appears to be close to bringing charges against trump for election interference,

prosecutors are still pushing ahead with parts of their investigation. and that includes collecting new evidence and setting up new interviews with witnesses who could possibly shed light on trump's state of mind during that critical post election period, or on other subjects key to their inquiry. in just the last few days, we learned a lawyer for -- the former new york city police commissioner who worked closely with rudy giuliani in the weeks following joe biden's victory, turned over hundreds of pages of documents to federal prosecutors. the documents are said to detail efforts by -- into truly a need to find evidence of voter fraud. just how this 11th hour evidence could factor into the doj's final case, look, that is still to be determined. but as the times notes, it's not uncommon for prosecutors to keep investigating a criminal case up to the final moment that an indictment is returned. let's bring in our panel for the hour, barbara mcquade,

former attorney in michigan and legal analyst. -- for mother jones and an msnbc political contributor, and state representative milken kamila, a democrat from pennsylvania. it's great to have you with us. -- i'd like to start with you. that meeting between trump's lawyers and federal prosecutors, we don't know what exactly was discussed in that meeting, but a similar sit down with lawyers that occurred in the days before trump was indicted last month in the classified documents case, what do you imagine went down during that meeting, and could it have been about the superseding indictment, not about new charges involving a january 6th? >> well, i would think based on the identity of the lawyers, it seems to be that it is more likely about the january 6th case. it's probably prompted by that target letter that donald trump received, saying that he was a target of a grand jury's investigation. usually that puts an alert on the defense team that an indictment is likely coming,

and likely coming soon. and so it's not uncommon in a high profile case for defense council to ask for a meeting to just make their pitch. and prosecutors usually woke up those meetings because there may be something they don't know about the case. if there's information that will change my mind, by all means, bring it on. let me hear it. but i'll tell you what really works. for example, what -- from time to time i would take these meetings. i remember one time where we actually changed our mind about a case, and in the southern plus years i served as u.s. attorney i probably presided over -- 7000 cases. so as you can see, it's pretty rare that he had talked out of an indictment. but once in a while you find out something that you did know that changes your mind. i'd be surprised if it would happen here in light of all the evidence that we know that's in the public domain based in the january 6th congressional hearings. >> david, we don't put a lot of weight to what donald trump says, but what do you make of trump disputed the notion his lawyers were told to expect an indictment. what game is he playing here, given the fact that it was him who posted that he received a

target letter? >> on one hand he plays the victim and try to tell people he's about to be indicted, and on the other hand he's like no, i'm not going to be indicted. we're just having coffee, chitchatting. >> i don't think that donald trump can see more than six inches in front of his face. by that i mean, he does whatever he thinks at that moment is necessary to do. it doesn't matter if it's consistent or inconsistent with anything he said in the past, anything he may say in the future. so whatever the reason was, he just wants to -- and the media, so they're out there saying he's about to be indicted, he's going to say no it's not true and that if it comes out, of all the 30,000 lies and false statements made as president, this one will barely register. so, i don't think there's a lot to be read into that. and i think in some ways, his head is probably spinning. if you pour out all the various stories about jack smith and

what a january 6th indictment might be, there are multiple strands and that he's investigating. whether it's what happened in georgia, whether it's donald trump trying to corrupt the justice department into falsely stating the election was rigged or was fraudulent, what happened with the january 6th rally, whether he tried to incite, there's just so much there. an indictment probably won't cover it all when it comes, but i mean, barbara can probably speak to this better than i can. from the lawyer side, they must feel like they're staring down a firearm. >> as state representative, kenya, as i mentioned, smith that his team received a batch of documents from bernard. an interesting character, giuliani associate, and it had to deal with their attempts to find voter fraud. your state, i'm sure you're very familiar with it, one of those targeted by trump and his allies after the election for allegations of voter fraud. we all know, and you're certainly well aware, they did

not find any widespread voter fraud in pennsylvania, or quite honestly, anywhere in the country. talk to be about the specifics of this. how could this information help with jack smith's investigation? >> thanks a man. yeah, i served on the house state government committee, which oversees our elections. i was actually an elector, and trump and his attorneys sued all of the electors -- i don't know how many people he sued. but here's what we know for sure. donald trump is a lying liar who lies. and as my many years working for the u.s. justice department, there is a legal process that's going to play out which is being conducted by non political career professionals who were going to present evidence to a jury of donald trump's peers, and they're going to make a decision based on that evidence. but i think what's important to recognize is that the legal process, there is a political process that everybody watching right now has the ability to engage in. donald trump was in

pennsylvania today, lying again about the election. and he has the nerve and the audacity to come back to pennsylvania asking for votes after he and his acolytes tried to throw out the votes of pennsylvania voters, when he didn't like the way we voted. but i think as this conversation unfolds, it can't just be about accountability for donald trump. it has to also before the republican elected officials, who supported his lies and continue to parent them to these days. >> -- but during the time, barb, i have to ask you about mark meadows. because he's become a very interesting character this week. he was asked by an nbc news reporter whether he is testifying before a federal grand jury regarding the 2020 election investigation. to which he responded quote, i don't talk about anything january 6th related. interestingly, here's how chris christie, trump 2024 rival, former federal prosecutor himself, had to say about that

exchange. listen. >> the witnesses told, as they leave, you don't have to answer any questions or talk about it, but you are free to do so if you like. the only time you can't do it is when the government has a cooperation agreement with you and they say no talking about this. the only time we want to hear you talking is when you're on the witness stand. and that tommy, mark meadows looks to me like a federal witness under a cooperation agreement. my guess is that's what we're going to find out he is. >> do you agree? is meadows acting here like a cooperating witness? >> i don't know. i'm not sure i want to go so far as -- we heard chris christie go right there. it's a possibility and it certainly is consistent with that behavior, but it could also be he's got a good lawyer who tells him it don't talk about january 6th. don't say anything about it. i think most good clients who are listening to their lawyers would act the same way. but i think it's quite possible, and if so, he would be an incredibly valuable witness, just because of his role as the former chief of staff. he was president at all of --

and if you were to cooperate his, information would be extremely valuable. >> david, elaborate on that for us. how crucl meadows cooperation prove for -- i don't mean cooperation in the context of an agreement, but just the fact that he's providing information for what they are seeking in those hours and to use a fuller? >> i'm hazard to guess that i'm the only person in the room here at the moment who read mark meadows memoirs from his white house stint. spoiler alert -- >> i will speak for myself and say yes, i did not read mark meadows memoir. >> but there are about five or six pages, stuff about january 6th is really short. if you see what's come out just publicly in the text messages and everything else, mark meadows in the testimony at the january 6th congressional committee, he just lied through

his teeth in that book. now you're allowed to lie in a putt, even a book that claims to be nonfiction. to be, and i don't know if this is going to be part of the indictment, but i think the biggest indictment you have for donald trump, it's already been proven. that is on january 6th when americans were his supporters or attacking fellow americans at the capitol. he did nothing. i don't know if doing nothing can be a prosecutable crime from a federal prosecutor. but that to me is what mark meadows can tell us the most about. what happened on one of the most consequential days in american history. he doesn't go into it in his book, he barely touches it. there's a lot of things that he could talk about that might be relevant to a criminal case, but i would love to see him tell us -- what happened during those awful hours on january 6th. >> kenya, let me ask you about the broader risk for our

country. when it comes to the many investigations into donald trump. there is a part of those who have watched his behavior, who are worried about it. and they look at the various indictments that have come and maybe we'll come in georgia. but how do you rank the election interference probe and its significance to what is at stake here in our country? >> you know, eamonn, you rightfully talk about this a lot on your show. but these lies are poison to our democracy. they've seeped into every single level of government. i know we're so often focused on what's happening in congress, federally what happens with the fake speaker of the house and what they're doing. but at the end of the day, what's happening at every level of government is really troubling. donald trump won one lawsuit as related to his 2020 election claims. that was in the commonwealth court here in pennsylvania.

-- commonwealth court race, and the judge who gave him, who hinted him that victory, the only one in the nation, she was almost the republican nominee for the supreme courts here in pennsylvania. i was just a read two days ago can painting for dan mccaffrey, the nominee -- nominees for superior court. and i'm telling you this. people are said -- fed up with the nonsense, obviously you have to separate out the people who are in the whole maga. but there are a lot of people who are looking for common sense and seriousness from their elected officials, particularly on the bench. and i'll just make this last point. these lies have not stopped, and they have not stopped putting money behind the lies. for -- him to a supreme court and severe court race in pennsylvania, into a super pac, which was all tied in with these fraudulent claims in supporting many of my colleagues who signed the

letter -- i've been front and center on this over and over again, and it is not abated. >> panel, please stick around. we've got a lot more to discuss ahead. we're going to continue the conversation with jack smith's focus on a federal 2020 white house meeting, and where trump was told about election fraud. but first my friend littered louis was here with the headlines. >> very good evening to you. two u.s. citizens were kidnapped in haiti. a nonprofit group they're saying anderson or child were taken from their campus near port-au-prince thursday. the state department saying that is working with haitian authorities. the kidnapping, by the way, was on the same day u.s. embassy personnel were evacuated amid civil unrest. the u.s. state department says an attempted military coup in niger was marked by quote, confusion, shifting alliances, and fluidity. it stopped short of declaring the situation a philip coup. niger military saying they detained the country's democratically elected president. and more than 110 million americans are under excessive

heat warnings. forecasters say storms will cool parts of the northeast, but extreme heat is expected in the south for a few more days. more ayman with a man moiety, right after this break. this and papa is hungry. and while you're hittin' the trail, i'm hitting your cooler. oh, cheddar! i've got hot dog buns! and your cut-rate car insurance might not pay for all this. so get allstate, and be better protected from mayhem, like me. roar. (sfx: family screams in background) ♪ ♪ ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪

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it's utterly enthralling and one of the best movies of the century. the special counsel's office appears to be building a case that donald trump knew the 2020 presidential election was not rigged. nbc news can confirmed that prosecutors have been focusing on a meeting that took place in february 2020, nine months before the election. where officials from the fbi office of the director of national intelligence, and the cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency, explained to then president trump why it is extraordinarily difficult for hiking and fraud to affect the results of the u.s. election. sources -- receptive to the officials input. and even floated the idea of holding a news conference about the measures being used to keep the election safe and secure. but of course, he never did. instead, months later, trump

and his allies speed election lie after election lie. silencing anyone who opposed him. and that includes then director chris -- who was fired just five days after issuing a joint statement calling the 2020 election quote, the most secure in american history. krebs confirmed thisekhat he has been interviewed by jack smith's office, my panel is back with me. barbara, how could evidence from these 2020 meetings undercut trump's defense in the january 6th case? it seems like a far time moved away, but it seems like it also has a significance because trump has always maintained that he did lose the election, but according to this reporting, we see that he was at least made aware that the chances of election fraud were actually slim to none. >> yeah, the significance -- it is not the only evidence of trump's knowledge and intent, which is supported if the charges are as reported in that target letter to include

conspiracy to -- ants as well as other crimes involving obstruction of justice, which require a corrupt intent. so you have to show he knew that the election was fair and free and accurate. so this is one piece of that. hearing from these experts about how difficult it would be to have any sort of hacking or cyber intrusion that could disrupt the election, and it's not the only thing. of course we learned later that after the election, william barr told us there was no fraud in the election. we heard that chris krebs told us that even after the election it was the most secure in history. and even two of trump's own campaign analysts came forward and said that we looked at everything and we don't find any fraud. so when we put all of that together, you can reach a conclusion that donald trump absolutely knew that he had lost this election. jurors are to look at the totality of the circumstances to draw fear influences about a person knew. and here this piece of evidence would be part of that totality of the circumstances to draw the inference that he absolutely knew he lost the election. >> to that point, donald trump

cannot plea ignorance here. he can't say that i believe this entire time that i won this election and that when he was calling brad raffensperger in georgia telling him to find votes, you have now a very established timeline of evidence of people, of credible people, security in these cases, telling the president that these were free and fair and secure elections. >> and there's even more than that. my colleague and -- reported that audiotape that you might recall, steve bannon before the election, saying that donald trump at the election, or after, he is going to declare victory whether he wins or doesn't winds. and then you have rudy giuliani who we discussed on the show already, on election night, for maybe a little tipsy as some people have testified, telling trump to declare that he won. even before votes could be fully counted. so i think -- i'm not the lawyer here, barbara is, but when we talk

about good faith or bad faith, there's a lot of indications here that trump, whatever he was saying, was a bad faith actor and it goes back to the point i made earlier on the show. he's nothing if not 100 percent transactional. he says what he needs to say at that moment in time, no matter what the facts or the truth. maybe we're wondering if he even knows what the truth is, i suppose it's a question for the lawyers if you can find an accused who doesn't -- who is so distorted that he doesn't recognize the truth as being the truth, or even being a person like that. donald trump seems to be that type of person. >> what's crazy about all of this, state representative, is that the logical republicans on one hand, even donald trump, could say that election results was rigged or that election was fraudulent. but the down ballot republicans who won in the same electoral processes, meaning the same machines who voted for joe

biden, with the same machines used to vote for the down ballot republicans who ended up winning some of their state races and senate races and congressional races. those ones miraculously are not fraudulent or stolen. >> you know, i had to deal with this in realtime. after the election, the republican chair of the state committee held 15 atm hearings about the alleged reading of the election. 15. and my opponent, current auditor general tim before, came before that hearing. republicans passed the confidential movement to put this guy in charge of auditing the future elections act. -- you just won a statewide election on this ballot with donald trump, and yet you are going to sit here lying about the election results. and he said, my election was fair but there's questions about the rest.

that's why i make this point again and again. they have not stopped carrying water for donald trump. i mean, we are in 2023 and still they will go to the ends of the earth to carry water for donald trump, who some members of congress before he spoke at the rally in erie talking about he is going to be at the law and order president. seriously? this guy? >> it's always protected with him. never a moment of contrition, or at least aware is that what they may be saying is just flat out wrong. david corn, malcolm can guetta, thank you so much. barb mcquade, cigarette i want to discuss this after the break. we are going to discuss the figures not named trump who were discussed in the indictment, including the ex presidents employees. stay with us. yees and the results are in. subaru is the 2023 best mainstream automotive brand, according to consumer reports.

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insight into donald trump's support limits and how he ropes them into his alleged criminal schemes. first there was world nauta, the former white house fellow who became trump's personal aide or body man after he left office, it's not always indicted in june as his coconspirator accused of packing up classified documents and hiding them from the federal government. now we know that nauta wasn't alone in his scheme. as a superseding indictment lays new obstruction counts alleging trump and his aides attempted to delete mar-a-lago surveillance video last summer that showed his mishandling of documents. the indictment charges a third person with federal felonies. carlos de oliveira who is identified as the property manager at mar-a-lago and a former belly as well. de oliveira has been charged with conspiracies to obstruct justice, altering and destroying, mutilating, or concealing an object and making false statements. according to the washington

post, investigators interest in de oliveira started to arise when security camera footage from the mansion showed him helping nauta move boxes back to the storage area more two months earlier on june 2nd, 2022, according to people there. that was just one day before a federal prosecutor's agents visited mar-a-lago, and to look around the place. in the superseding indictment, we actually learned that security footage became a focus of jack smith's investigations. after discovering that in june, 2022, de oliveira told another employee, quote, the boss wanted the server deleted. let's bring back barbara mcquade, also joining in on the conversation, msnbc daily commenter, and host of the show on sirius xm. great to have you both with us. barbara, i will start with you, as we read the indictment, what was the biggest legal parallel

here to de oliveira and walt nauta in your eyes. do you think prosecutors could still get them? >> i think they can. they both face conspiracy to obstruct justice which is a very serious crime. as well as each making false statements. so if convicted of these charges on the evidence is very strong here, they could face serious prison time, their best option is likely to cooperate. my guess is the reason we had the delay in the addition of carlos de oliveira in this case is that prosecutors were probably working with him to get him to cooperate and flip, it seems like he is somebody who could put himself there as a witness on the scene and talk about what walt nauta and what donald trump said, hear the boss, and put together, providing narrative for why they were obstructing justice and how this all went down.

but i had these conversations with people before and told them here is the evidence against you. you could either be a witness or a defendant and it appears today he is choosing to be a defendant. that could change as time goes on. >> what do you think it is that makes people, or what is it about trump that attracts people to risk it all? not only work for him, but help him obstruct an investigation? i would assume these people, as they begin to enter trump's orbit, they must be familiar with other people who have worked for him, who have gone to jail, or have been indicted. michael cohen, steve bannon, these are names that we all know in the public. are you trying to tell me these individuals have no idea that people who worked for donald trump ended up being caught up in all of this? >> perhaps, we don't know, maybe as part of their work package if you have been hired by donald trump you get a free lawyer. i knew that was the incentive, like the attraction of power

makes people do things, commit crimes, what is interesting is this happened last june, when indictment says that they had flashlights, like the burglars. the burglars were 15 years last june. it was 15 years forward. these guys are doing a watergate type of thing. trying to find surveillance footage, going back and saying the boss wants to get rid of the footage, and it is sad that people are risking their liberty and future we'll be that donald trump doesn't care about them at all, that is a sad reality. >> let me get your thoughts on that from a legal perspective. according to the superseding indictment that de oliveira confronted him play number for about mar-a-lago security footage, nbc news confirmed that person has ben and idea worker at the resort. if two people were present for that conversation we can assume

that they are cooperating with jack smith's team. how dangerous is this for trump and his codefendants? what else could the prosecutors potentially learn from him? >> well, he likely has provided them with a full narrative of everything that he knows. and it appears that he has cooperated and will plan to testify a trial. you know, there is a rule under the hearsay rules out says it is considered not to be hearsay when coconspirator discusses a statement made by his fellow coconspirator sir, so this actually employee can testify about what he heard from carlos de oliveira that donald trump said when he says these things -- the boss wants this, the boss wants that, that is all coming into evidence through mister tavares. so he could be a very valuable witness here and it sounds like he has come forward and they likely put him to lock him into that story so that he does not have to be entrenched with

power. as we said, some people are. that transcript can be used if he should change his mind and decide not to testify. he is pretty much locked into that story now to testify a trial. >> we were having this debate in the earlier hour. i'm not sure if you caught any of it about what type of evidence should jack smith have or bring if he is bringing this superseding indictment. you know that there was charles blow and myself who are in slight disagreement about what is the threshold, if you will, with this allegation of employee number four saying that the boss told them that the boss wants the server deleted. where do you come down on that? >> i watch every minute of every one of your shows, just so you know that. of course i was watching that. >> the hearsay exception works here.

this is not like, i guess people think this is reporting, like watching a report, it says sources say this, this was evidence given to a grand jury. they heard from somebody, that grand jury indicted is not based on reporting or unknown sources. people came forward and testified that and we can expect they will testify at trial, consistent with what. so there is a lot of evidence. this is like obstruction 101. you get a subpoena for films and then you try to get rid of it. even though you have a lawyer. you could get a conviction with this case. you really could. >> i think there's too much credit to that. i am not one justice operating, and we definitely want the justice system in this country to operate on something more substantial. please stick around, barbara mcquade, thank you as always, thank you for your insights. kevin mccarthy's pathetic plan to distract from donald trump's --

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on the cusp of a third, and be even fourth criminal indictment and the gop's legislative agenda in shambles, house speaker kevin mccarthy is making one last-ditch attempt to take control of the political narrative and pull focus from republicans growing problems by floating an impeachment inquiry into, wait for it, president biden. specifically one tied to

unfounded allegations that his son hunter received millions of dollars in exchange for influence and favors, it would also extensively focus on what republicans claim is favorable treatment by hunter biden by the justice department. >> i believe that we will follow this all the way until the end and this is going to rise to an impeachment inquiry the way that the constitution tells us to do this, and we have to get the answers to these questions. >> mccarthy has one little problem, house republicans have already been investigating these foreign intelligence claims since taking control of the house, and guess what, folks? they have turned up zero evidence. and as far as the claims of favoritism that trump-appointed u.s. attorney overseeing hunter biden's tax break has denied them and has been willing to testify to that under oath in public. as washington post philip bump put it, if anything was surprising about mccarthy's announcement that his caucus

might initiate an impeachment inquiry against president biden, it was only that it took so long. here is house democratic caucus chairman, peter aguilar this week. >> this is just a complete distraction. and speaker mccarthy knows it. in the absence of talking about important policies that reduce costs for every day americans, this is what we are left with. there is no there there, but that is not going to stop house republicans from advocating things that they feel are harmful politically for the president. >> back with me is dean joining the conversation, and democratic strategist, aisha mills. great to have you with us. let's start with you. you heard what congressman aguilar said there. the timing is also interesting. this impeachment idea of being floated right when we see another trump indictment being handed down. is mccarthy scraping the bottom of the barrel with this?

the house has already investigated biden family money complaints for years, and even within them being in control of the house over the last six months on so far nothing. >> you said it in your opening. there have been years of investigation into some kind of wrongdoing with president biden that has chart up nothing. it is a witch hunt that is essentially a lookie-loo, what republicans are trying to do, what mccarthy is trying to do is important for us to remember that he's doing someone's bidding, saying hey, do not look at that. trump has over seven criminal charges against him right now, because there is likely to be more. do not pay attention to that in the fact that he's going to be on trial during the presidential race in the primary. look over here, look over here, we will try to create some energy around getting the

president biden. i think the thing that shocks me about this most, not the fact that they are doing it but the fact that they do believe that it is a winning strategy. that they think so little over their voters that it is kind of being bag for their electorate. i don't think it is going to work. i think it is surprising they think it is going to work but it will fall flat. >> i've got to ask you. two examples that we can draw on here. i want to ask you about how you think americans will feel about this. how it will land with voters, even republicans, the general election, because it could end up driving more democrats to the polls that we saw in 1998, after voters thought republicans overreach by impeaching bill clinton, or we can look at bill clinton with the benghazi committee that kevin mccarthy would go on tv and boast about, hey, we launched the benghazi committee and look at their poll numbers. they've taken a hit. >> i'm gonna go with her number one, that will hurt the republicans, is that good?

look, exactly. here's the thing, imagine republicans are like wow, joe biden did something wrong, they can't find any facts. wait until they hear about donald trump inciting a terrorist attack on the capitol. they're really going to go into high gear there. not only do they want to impeach joe biden, they want to expunge donald trump's impeachment. so two of them together on the same track. let's be honest, impeachment is seen as a political assumption the judicial system is different. these are grand jury indictments. people sat in the room from the area for the evidence, and want to indict donald trump on 74 indictments. that is how it works right now. it is going to get the people in the media. make sure that you don't pull sides on this. please tell them that there is not two sides to every issue as

everyone famously said. >> that is a very good point. i will tell you within the republicans that this impeachment inquiry has the gop divided. we know that kevin mccarthy is already struggling to retain his speakership because you have some republicans that up and coming up saying mccarthy should cool it with all of this talk. and that strategy is a huge political risk,, you even have fox on live fox news saying they should dump the impeachment. what is the thinking here? do you think the idea will die if mccarthy doesn't fully support it? >> here is a reason that there are republicans that are saying calm down, be easy. there is at least 18 republicans right now sitting in congress who are representing districts that joe biden won. and then joe biden won significantly, by the way. so you have got these split districts coming up once again next year in 2024 when joe biden is going to be at the top

of the ballot. there are 18 numbers over the republican caucus who don't want to lose our jobs over this crazy witch hunt who are saying pause, slow down, relax a little minute. i don't understand, here's the thing we always assume, this is my conspiracy theory here, trump has mccarthy on something. there is a reason that that alliances so tight. and there are other republicans who seem to be a little less tethered to defending donald trump's honor, that actually want to keep their seats. i think that they are going to sink all of this. i don't see it really moving forward. >> you know, one consistent concern that has been raised by pendants is that given all of the impeachment rhetoric over the last decade or so, because you remember republicans trying to impeach obama, that the actual power of impeachment to your earlier point has become political. it is that the actual moral stain it carried had lessened. and it is not as significant as

it once was to be impeached when you have a president who has been impeached twice in the span of one presidential term. >> donald trump was voted to be impeached and removed him. although it wasn't enough in the senate, it was bipartisan. donald trump tonight in his theory, any republican who doesn't -- he will primary that person and get them out of the ballot. so i hope trump does. and i hope that he has seats and that we can win that. he nominates even more maga people even further right, or further maggot fascists, then we could win those seats and take the house back. so it is going to be seen as purely political. it might make them happy a little bit, to get people on the left even more angry. and that is when we are going to win the election. >> when you think about what happened to will hurd, the fact he gets booed onstage for trying to speak truth to power. at the end of the day, republican voters do not want to hear truth about donald trump.

>> remember, this is still a primary right now. that old stuff is in that primary. there are a lot of voters who are going to be crossover voters for joe biden again, joe biden already went down this with a strategy. people who might be republicans but who are not trump people, so what we think is going to happen this plays out is that those people are going to come back out for him. >> all right. thank you both very much for this, i appreciate it, as always. a quick break, don't go anywhere. d i'm about to steal this game from you just like i stole kelly carter in high school. you got no game dude, that's a foul! and now you're ready to settle the score. game over. and if you don't have the right home insurance coverage, well, you could end up paying for all this yourself. so get allstate, and be better protected from mayhem, yeah, like me. thanks, bro. take a lap, rookie.

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