of the classified documents matter. they are a little known low-level staffers who weren't involved with trump's campaign operations. they work directly for the former president and reportedly fetched him die coax throughout the day and nature's palm beach residents mar-a-lago as well kept. aside from the fact that they work for the most powerful people in the world, there otherwise regular guys who financials entangled in the notoriety of the twice impeached twice indicted former president. holding other counts from a modest, background he grew up here in the naval base in the united states territory of guam. in 2001 he enlisted in u.s. navy. rose to the rank of senior chief culinary specialist. in 2000, 12 he began working and the white house during barack obama's second term. he soon for the trump, administration and where he was mentally promoted to valet. in stationed outside the oval office tasked with anticipating trump. this is a valet who served as a president another parking valet. formed a new working

relationship with trump of the white house trump work for him full-time. we know less about calls oliveira, we don't have a photo of him we went to get our first glimpse of him until tomorrow when he scheduled to make his first appearance in federal court in miami. from what we do, no deal of air is 56 years old. he's worked in mar-a-lago in a number of jobs for about 20 years. he has multiple roles but currently he's the property manager of the resort. special counsel jack smith's team is fanned both nada and de oliveira with multiple crimes. including serious crimes, conspiracies to obstruct justice. prosecutors allege that nadia and dealer eric carried out trump's orders and remove dozens of boxes of government records, including those that were handled with and classified around mar-a-lago in order to prevent fraud in the 30s even trump's own lawyers from finding them. if convicted, they could face years-long prison sentences. at this, time both men still remain employed by donald trump.

paid for by donald trump. certainly value for their work, ethic but even more because they've demonstrated loyalty. perhaps to a fault. trump, quote, values loyalty above all else, and. but that's a direct quote from his own books. loyalty is an important requirement. if you work for donald trump. we're called a one-on-one dinner former fbi director james comey had with trump back in 2017. during which comey says he was asked to pledge his loyalty to the president. call me gym your, and a few months later he was removed from his post. the superseding indictment last week also eludes to the idea of how important loyalty is to trump. quote, just over two weeks after the fbi discovered classified documents, in the story from a trump's office, on august 26, 2020, to nada called trump employee five and said words to the fact, a quote, someone just wants to make sure that carlos is good. carlos de oliveira.

at which point trump told not indict trump was loyal and the de oliveira which is not to do anything to affect his relationship to trump. that same, day after nadia's request, trump -- confirmed in a tracker up with nada and the pack representative that de oliveira was loyal. that same day trump called the and told deliver that trump would get cielo vera an attorney. and quote. now that not angela where are tangled in trump's web of lies they found themselves in a difficult legal position. according to filings from the federal election commission, we know that in 2022 the firm where de oliveira's attorney is a partner was paid more than $189,000 by trump's save america back. similarly, the law firm which for which nauta works was paid $120,000 through november of last year. both cases however it is not clear if that's just to cover each of their legal bills since both law firms represent

figures in trump's orbit. new reports for the washington post, they spent $40 million in just the first six months of 2023 it covering the legal fees for tom and others in his orbit. it is the total more than any other expenses teasing card in the 2024 presidential campaign. and federal filing from earlier this, month more than trump's campaign raised in the second quarter. now 2023. they're raising money from donors and more on trump's legal defense and any aspect of the campaign. one person knows exactly was like to work for donald, trump and to be loyal to him is michael cohen. you spent time in the correctional facility. because of worth it for the former, president and recently also reached a settlement with the trump organization, regarding a dispute over unpaid legal fees. michael cohen joins me now with

the principle that crisis management company. he also hosts a mea culpa and political beatdown podcasts. he is the author of disloyal, a memoir. and revenge, how donald trump weaponize the promise of justice. against his critics. michael, good to see you and thanks again for being. here this csis is built for. yay this idea that these two guys were charged for aiding and abetting donald trump is built for you because you understand being close to donald, trump being lost donald trump, and having donald trump turn on you. tell me what motivates these guys. nauta, de oliveira, and the others who are yet and named? we don't know where they. our why do they do this and why don't -- they they're interviewed by the government of justice and yet they stay form. >> these two gentlemen are very perplexing because they are not executives. one of them is a property manager. he enjoys the place looking good. first and foremost, the first thing we have to understand is mar-a-lago is not donald

trump's residence. it was once the residents magnificent residents of marjory -- for donald trump is a social club. he may live, there with the does not make it -- it is not his residence does a social club. i see that one of them has worked there for an excess of two decades or so for him it is a financial. on top of that i'm not so sure that he knew. again, he is not in the inner circle. so the question is did he and now that there was a subpoena, but there was a retention, later or a -- of information documents and so on? or did donald just use ham? like a castaway? did he just use him for the sole purpose of moving the boxes without the guy actually even knowing what he was doing? he was following the bosses orders -- >> you work for me, move the boxes. >> no different then -- >> godlike. oh here's a question.

he wasn't given about this by the fbi. and what they put in the superseding indictment is the fact that -- it was like a law, movie did you do? this. no didn't talk to you to do this? nope, never heard. but that's what they seem to get on the cover, of not the crime. >> right. and it is very typical as part of the trump playbook. which is just how are they were going to know what our conversation was about? just say i didn't do it. that's what donald. says just say i didn't do it. what did i do? i told you to move something. and a story. and the guy is following the directions. again, for him it's probably financial because this is his drop. he's not looking to lose the job. but it's hard not to get a job today anyway. who does not want to lose his position. >> what's the math on that the? donald trump will not fire me, he'll be exonerated of these crimes. i'll get pardon if i gets given or i won't get convicted? what is that thinking versus the, let me just tell the feds what i know? >> it is again all part of a

scheme. it is all part of the campaign to stay on donald's message. that is the -- i have seen that over the decade plus time and i have been working for donald where he comes up with a message and it is your responsibility as a loyal employee to promote, to regurgitate, his message. whether you know it to be truthful or you know it to be inaccurate. >> you and i had a conversation which might be useful to you guys to listen to, where i asked you when after your arrest did you get the sense that donald trump was not going to stick with you? that he was not going to be loyal back to you? let's listen to what you told me. >> it was the moment i was watching donald on television. he was sitting in the long table with a group of other individuals. arms crossed, looking a very angry. and he made a statement, gross

it was that the fbi raided one of my attorneys homes and office. and that it is disgusting. i started to think to myself, now all of this sudden i am just one of his attorneys. now he does not mention me by name. the same way that he mentions me by name when they asked him to question about the stormy daniels payment on air force one. now all this and they didn't have a name. that's when i realized that something is really awry here. and that's donald is not in my quarter. >> you actually mounted a lot more to donald trump. you are really central to his operation. you knew secrets and things he had done. >> i was his four a.m. phone call. and his 11 pm phone call. basically every night. for over a decades. so yeah, i would suspect that i was. my recommendation, i've said it to what nauta he was a former military guy i'm sure he

prepared speakers. i would say the same to de oliveira and to the same guy, tavares. donald is not going to protect you, donald is like first avenue. one way, and loyalty for donald only goes one way. he will use, you know he will throw you debus, and by the time that you get sworn under the bus it is too late already, the feds, long enforcement, our office, they are fantastic. they have everything. they know everything. and the case does not start and stop with the deal of era, with, tavares with nauta. it doesn't start and stop with, them they have testimony from dozens of people. they have documentary evidence, text messages. they even have it on signal. >> they just need a little extra from these guys, but they've got it whether deal vera or nauta give it to. them >> if the feds got minister asking you questions you should start flipping like if you're part of the u.s. dynastic's team. he is not going to protect you

and since he said he's going to pay legal bills, knowing this, since we just had a settlement, get it in writing. >> i want to talk about. that he was paying the bills for this and whether that is influential. take a. break michael cohen and i will be right back. be right back. i wi (bobby) my store and my design business? we're exploding. but my old internet, was not letting me run the show. so, we switched to verizon business internet. they have business grade internet, nationwide. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. age is just a number, and mine's unlisted.

try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv (man) mm, hey, honey. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. looks like my to-do list grew. "paint the bathroom, give baxter a bath, get life insurance," hm. i have a few minutes. i can do that now. oh, that fast? remember that colonial penn ad? i called and i got information. they sent the simple form i need to apply. all i do is fill it out and send it back. well, that sounds too easy! (man) give a little information, check a few boxes, sign my name, done. they don't ask about your health? (man) no health questions. -physical exam? -don't need one. it's colonial penn guaranteed acceptance whole life insurance. if you're between the ages of 50 and 85, your acceptance is guaranteed in most states, even if you're not in the best health.

options start at $9.95 a month, 35 cents a day. once insured, your rate will never increase. a lifetime rate lock guarantees it. keep in mind, this is lifetime protection. as long as you pay your premiums, it's yours to keep. call for more information and the simple form you need to apply today. there's no obligation, and you'll receive a free beneficiary planner just for calling. written by those who work it. like the upshaws. the nelsons. and the caggianos. run with us and start telling your story. permission to dig in? granted.

breyers carbsmart is so rich, so creamy, it tastes totally off-limits. but with only 4 grams of net carbs in every delicious serving, you've got the green light. better starts with breyers. wanna lose weight and be healthier? it's time for aerotrainer. you've got the green light. a more effective total body fitness solution. (announcer) aerotrainer's ergodynamic design and four patented air chambers create maximum muscle activation for better results in less time. it allows for over 20 exercises. do the aerotrainer super crunch, push ups, aero squat. it inflates in 30 seconds. aerotrainer is tested to support over 500 pounds. lose weight, look great, and be healthy. go to aerotrainer.com. ♪ ♪ ♪ that's a-e-r-o trainer.com.

>> every time the radical left democrats, marxists, communists, and fascists indict me, i consider it actually a great badge of honor, i do. it's a great badge of honor because i am being indicted for you. and never forget that our enemies want to stop me because i'm the only one who's going to be able to stop them. >> that was trump last night in erie, pennsylvania. by the way, i'm gonna spend sometime this hour talking about fascism and the irony of donald trump calling the people going after him fascism. michael cohen is back with me. he is donald trump's former personal attorney.

michael, some growth historical parallels. they are really gross. i don't like talking about that because i don't like compelling comparing people to mussolini and hitler. but it's out of the playbook, right? mussolini used to say, i am your adventure. he says, this one says i am your retribution. they are inviting me to protect -- i'm protecting you. i'm the only one -- >> right, allegedly donald used to keep on the side of his table. this isn't a joke to anybody who thinks for a quick second that, listen, there is no way he's going to win. that was a pretty packed audience last night in erie, pennsylvania. and shame on each and every one of them for going there after you start hearing, even the stability from desantis who is trying to be a donald trump 2.0, about slavery, and the whole cost, they are all out of control, and if guys like donald trump, or donald trump 2.0, we take the white house,

i'm not trying to be hyperbolic here, the america that we know is going to be more like the handmaid's tale than the united states of america, that my daughter should have less rights and then my mother. rights and then my mother. daughter shorights andthat's ap. we are going backwards as a country. and it's why, look, ali, you, the show, and so many others are so important in order to explain, explain to the people who don't want to be explained to what's really going on here. >> i had a conversation with the president of the national education association, the teachers union the other night, who said in florida, teachers are resisting teaching this nonsense in florida that ron desantis wants to teach about how people were enslaved and develop some skills. and breitbart has posted this morning an article which says, the msnbc's velshi argues florida should not teach, banned ap course saying they learned skills.

mainstream publications are taking issue with the idea that that is a ridiculous thing to say. we had kimberly crenshaw on the other day, she said my great grandmother was enslaved. and she was a midwife. she would much rather not had been enslaved and learn being a midwife. and if you are a free people, you can learn whatever you -- want >> of course, it's not only bs. it is dangerous. and thank goodness for adolf hitler, my father suffering as a child during the holocaust, right, as a presenter -- >> my father's from bullet. and he was part of the last generation of the holocaust. if it wasn't for hitler, my father would have never become a constructive surgeon in toronto, because they ended up leaving the country after the war was over. i'm, thank goodness for hitler, right? is that what they want to start teaching. and superman israel. i saw him fly over the city

yesterday. the level of stupidity that's coming from this far right, that is being supported, if that's the worst part, all those folks that were there in erie, pennsylvania, they are supporting this level of stupidity, whether it's to donald trump's pack, which to me makes no sense. he gets to use at his own discretion 90 cents of every dollar. you may as well give it to him -- forget about the pack, you want to fix your plane. you want to buy a helicopter. here is money. >> at the moment, it's his legal defense fund. >> he could use it for whatever he wants. but the whole thing, the whole conversation, it is asinine. there is no other way to put it. and the fact that you have courses that are now going to be taught about wrong history, it's not just insulting, it is ridiculous, because it's not being taught anywhere else in the world. >> it's not donald trump doing that, it is ron desantis. trump might be gone one day,

but this nonsense camperville. >> trumpism is not gonna go away simply because donald loses in 2024. you still have the ron desantis, josh hawley, the marjorie greene, lauren boebert, the whole group of them, ted cruz, they will continue. they will continue trumpism until the donors stop feeding their pockets. >> and those people stop going to rallies. michael, good to see you as always, thanks for being with us. michael cohen former personal attorney for donald trump, he's the host of the anti political beat podcast. he's the author of the book revenge, how donald trump weaponize the department of justice against his critics, and disloyal, and the more, which might be a good waiting for the increasing number of people who keep getting charged alongside donald trump. still ahead, president biden this week said he wasn't gonna declare victory on the economy. i say why not? the markets are up. inflation is coming down. unemployment is low. what the white house calls bidenomics to be working. but there are some problem areas we're gonna dig into after this. ♪ ♪ ♪

isn't at its best. but a little metamucil everyday can help. metamucil's psyllium fiber gels to trap and remove the waste that weighs you down and also helps lower cholesterol and slows sugar absorption to promote healthy blood sugar levels. so you can feel lighter and more energetic. lighten every day the metamucil way. and for a delicious way to promote digestive health try metamucil fiber thins.

>> i'm not here to declare victory yet on economy. we have more work to do. we have a plan for turning things around. bidenomics is just another way of saying, restoring the american dream. >> i don't know. if i were him, i'd actually be declaring victory. this economy is particularly good, especially since we've all beenonecession watch for the last year. job growth remains particularly strong. on friday, biden celebrated the job boom in the manufacturing industry. good news for credit companies to what the white house has been bidenomics, which is essentially his administration 's economic agenda. we have seen 30 consecutive months of job growth. according to the white house, as of early july, the u.s. economy is at 13.2 million jobs added since biden took office. meaning, we have recovered all the jobs that were lost during the pandemic, and then we added

nearly 5 million new jobs on top of that. the federal unemployment rate stands at 3.6%. back in the days, when i had hair, 5% was considered full employment, meaning that everyone who actively wanted to work could get a job. inflation, the biggest threat for the last year, has cooled significantly. in the month of june, it hit 3.3%. it's down from 9.1% at its peak in june of last year, meaning the price of goods we buy is coming down. to be clear, the fed likes to keep inflation to 2% or lower. but most global economists think that the realistic target for inflation should be 3%, which is where we are now. rose domestic product, gdp, which measures the value of goods and services produced in this country went up, which is a sign of economic strength. the stock market is doing well. the s&p 500 which tracks the performance of the 500 largest american companies, up nearly 20% since the start of the year. plus, the federal reserve itself, no longer expecting a recession this year.

the economy is so good that republicans may even need to switch off their strategy on slamming biden heading to the 2024 campaign. the washington post jeff stein points out, quote, these developments have led republican analysts to begin early discussions about whether, or how the party should adjust its attacks on biden, to account for this new economic reality, end quote. simply put, the american economy is strong right now. but to president biden's early point, the job isn't done yet. there is, in fact, still a lot more work to do on this economy. and joining me now to break down, as we always do, the good, that, and the ugly parts of the economy, my great friend caleb silver, the editor in chief at investopedia. caleb, good to see you. this is good stuff that i talked about, right? you and i have been in this business for a long time together, where really rarely do you see this kind of stuff coming together. >> this is really good news, and we should be celebrating that. you mentioned the stock market, stock market, half of americans

are not as investing -- and the wealth effect makes us feel better about spending and we are doing a lot of spending, consumer spending is very strong, consumer sentiment very strong. they can be going to taylor swift, beyoncé, everyone's going to those concerts. people are traveling around. this is very good news. and we didn't think we'd be here a year ago, especially with inflation. but we need to look at the risks, and there are risks. we talked about that. look at that board -- >> let's take a look. >> so inflation has come down quite a bit. it was less than 1% a year ago, 3% now. but food and housing remain very expensive. the housing market is busted, ali, we know that. mortgage rates are very high, which is pushing people into rentals. rental prices are high. food prices remain high, too, especially food away from home, going out to eat, and spending a lot of money on credit cards and elsewhere. consumer record high levels. the average credit card debt, ali, $57 -- >> and part of that because our wages are high, people are feeling good about it. they spent more. but that is always a concern you have to worry about. >> that's right, credit card apr, 24%.

that's an all-time high. interest rate is so high as the fed has been raising rates. and then that labor unrest, you talked about it in previous weeks. u.p.s. averted it, but we still have what's going on in hollywood. that doesn't affect the and writers the actress, that affects the entire industry. it's about 122,000 businesses associated with the entertainment industry. that's a big deal. you talked about it before. plus, auto workers, they had have a strike potentially coming up in september. we want to keep our eyes on that. >> all right, that's that. there is an ugly, and it is something that we may not realize right now. but it is something we are all feeling particularly this weekend. >> the extreme heat. it's hard to put a number on it until you have to put a number on it. but we're talking about crop losses. we're talking about a loss of productivity, and workers can't work because it's too hot. think about what's happening in forms. think about what's happening when it's too hot in manufacturing, we lose productivity. we lose crops, obviously, if there's a drought, floods. that's an issue, what we call black swan, grace, one we don't know the outcome until we know the outcome. and those interest rates, feds

raise rates again last month. >> it has worked to fight inflation, but we have higher rates. >> that's right, and they have a double edged sword. it makes everything more expensive, car loans, mortgages obviously, credit cards. the good side of this, you get money out of the bank right now, because banks raise those interest rates as well on your savings account. and student loan payments, we're talking about spending and how strong it is, and it's a very big deal. student loan payments come back this fall, september, october, that's about $350 per borrower. they haven't had to pay that in the last three years, and we will see what that does to consumer spending. but if you look at the good, the good is very good. we just want to keep our eyes on the potential risk -- >> that's what we have you here for, caleb. thanks very much, as always, caleb silver, editor in chief of investopedia. right after the break -- how the tables have turned after waging a massive attack on early voting, before and after the 2020 election? former president trump now encouraging his supporters to vote early. ♪ ♪ ♪ to keep up with their finances. smart bankers. convenient tools.

boom. one bank with the power of both. chase. make more of what's yours. my frequent heartburn had me taking antacid after antacid all day long but with prilosec otc just one pill a day blocks heartburn for a full 24 hours. for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein.

boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv (man) mm, hey, honey. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. looks like my to-do list grew. "paint the bathroom, give baxter a bath, get life insurance," hm. i have a few minutes. i can do that now. oh, that fast? remember that colonial penn ad? i called and i got information. they sent the simple form i need to apply. all i do is fill it out and send it back. well, that sounds too easy! (man) give a little information, check a few boxes, sign my name, done. they don't ask about your health? (man) no health questions. -physical exam? -don't need one. it's colonial penn guaranteed acceptance whole life insurance. if you're between the ages of 50 and 85, your acceptance is guaranteed in most states, even if you're not in the best health. options start at $9.95 a month, 35 cents a day. once insured, your rate will never increase.

a lifetime rate lock guarantees it. keep in mind, this is lifetime protection. as long as you pay your premiums, it's yours to keep. call for more information and the simple form you need to apply today. there's no obligation, and you'll receive a free beneficiary planner just for calling. after advil. feeling better? on top of the worlddddd!!! before advil. advil targets pain at the source of inflammation. when pain comes for you, come back fast with advil liqui-gels. >> the republican party,

including its leader donald trump, is adopting a new strategy for voter turnout in the 2024 elections. mail-in voting, groundbreaking, i know. and especially am using given how trump vilified early and absentee voting before and after the 2020 election. trump and his allies tried to convince voters, without evidence, that mail-in voting was rife with fraud, long before his outright attempts to overturn the 2020 election, trump's disinformation campaign against mail in voting planted a seed of doubt in the minds of many americans, mostly republicans. >> when you do all mail-in voting ballots, you are asking for fraud. people steal them out of mailboxes. people print them, they signed them, and people give them in. people don't know if they double counted. people take them where they force people to vote. they harvest, you know what

harvesting is. they take many, many ballots, put them altogether, they just dump them. nobody has an idea whether they're crooked or not. >> that was may of 2020, no evidence to back up and of that nonsense. now that the twice impeached, twice indicted ex president's wanted to get, he seems to have had a change of heart. last week, the rnc tweeted this video of trump, encouraging republicans to vote early. >> go to back your vote.com to sign up and commit to voting early, bank your vote.com. we must defeat the far-left at their own game or our country will never recover from this disaster's crooked biden administration. >> not quite a sham while commercial, but it's quite a 180. according to the washington post records, quote, after disappointing election result in 2020, 2022, republicans close to trump are seeking to raise hundreds of millions of dollars to build programs that would include some of the practices that the former president and other republicans

once described. the republican crusade against voting rights after the 2020 election can only be characterized as death by 1000 cuts. their efforts to discredit mail-in voting and stoked fear about unsubstantiated voter fraud has had serious consequences. many states, particular red states, we acted by imposing restrictions that have made voting difficult. election law journal found that within one year of the 2020 election, 19 states passed at least 33 new laws that made voting more difficult. those laws include restrictions on same day voter registration, requiring social security number, and mandating additional documentation to register to vote beyond what is already federally required. florida goes with a long constraint on mail-in voting, severely restricting access to ballot drop boxes. this new law was enacted after an election where black voters in the state voted by mail at a

higher rate than in recent years. i was a law shortens the early voting period and bans county election elections from sending out absentee ballot request forms unless specifically requested. in texas, it is restrictive voting legislation, threatening to criminally target election workers for expanding voter access, or forcibly encouraging eligible voters to request mail-in ballots. georgia made it a crime to hand out food and water to people waiting in line to vote. these are just a handful of the legislative attacks on voting rights following the 2020 election. if you look at any one of these provisions on its own, it's hard to truly understand the domino effect they've had on voting rights in america. but when you consider all of them together, as i said, deaths by 1000 cuts. voting should literally be the easiest thing you can do in a democracy as an american citizen. the time and effort it costs you to cast a ballot should be as little as possible, rather than turning people away from the ballot box, our lawmakers

should be doing everything in their power to bring voters to the polls, in droves. when my father became the first south asian and the first muslim in canada to hold major public office in 1987, he not only drove people to the polls, we felt them before, and even after if they wanted. to this day, when i vote in the united states, i wear that little sticker, breaking that i did, four days, to show that i've done my civic duty, and to encourage other to do their, because when every eligible voter can and does carry out their specific duty, our democracy is better, and therefore we are all better for. it it seems the republicans have figured that out a little too late. donald trump and the gop lost the 2020 election and try to use mail-in voting as a scapegoat, and then it backfired on them during the 2022 midterms. now, with the white house on the line in 24, republicans are attempting to resuscitate something that they actively destroyed and use it to their advantage. good luck with that. good luck with that.

chase. freedom for kids. hungry? thank you, chef. control for parents. nice. one bank for both. chase. make more of what's yours. (vo) consumer reports evaluates vehicles for car shoppers in... ...reliability, safety, owner satisfaction, and road-test evaluations... and the results are in. subaru is the 2023 best mainstream automotive brand, according to consumer reports. and subaru has seven consumer reports recommended models. outback, forester, solterra, crosstrek, ascent, impreza, and legacy. it's easy to love a brand you can trust. it's easy to love a subaru.

subway's now slicing their meats fresh. that's why soccer pros like me profer the grand slam ham. and this rookie pro... profers fresh sliced turkey. and if we profer it, we know you'll prefer it too. glad you made the cut. you mean slice? seriously? >> during the trump administration, you might remember the rise of antifa, those activists wearing all black who confronted white nationalists at rallies. while conservatives tried to label them as terrorists, the fbi had its sights on the far-right extremists, recognizing them as the more significant national security threat. they still do. antifa is now an umbrella term for left-leaning movements

consisting of loosely affiliated activists who share an anti authoritarian philosophy. their members were vehemently opposed to racism, economic inequality, homophobia, and fascism. in fact, some of their so-called radical ideas, minus their violence, resonate with a considerable number of progressives. anti fascism, more broadly than the black clad protesters who call themselves antifa, anti fascism itself is deeply committed to safeguarding democratic principles, human rights, and social justice. and if you are irregular viewer of my show, i would bet that while you have nothing to do with those people who are called antifa, you broadly align with the anti fascism perspective. i'm not an antifa supporter, but i am most definitely anti-fascist. the term fascism originated in italy during the early 20th century, coined by benito mussolini, the founder of the fascist movement, and subsequently the italian dictator. and italian word meaning bundle, or group. it served as the inspiration for the term, the fascist

movement adopted the symbol of a bundle of indestructible rods tight around and acts, symbolizing authority and power in ancient rome. in ancient, in 1921, mussolini established a national fascist party, with the aim of creating a unified state, to restore italy's glory after world war i. fascism, under his leadership, embodied extreme nationalism, authoritarianism, suppression of dissent, and militarism. fascist regimes sought to control all aspects of society, including the economy, media, and education, in pursuit of a centralized and powerful state. from italy, fascism spread to other countries, most notably, not see nazi germany under hitler. today the term represents a broad category of authoritarian ideologies and movements worldwide, categorized by dictatorial powers, stronger nationals, and the impression of. the quashing of this and it's been so central to american and

conservative ideology. let's discuss the connection between trump and fascism. while some people hesitate to apply the label to trump and his maga movement, they do certainly share certain values and features. trump's inflammatory rhetoric is fearmongering, endorsement of violence, embracing conspiracy theories, vilifying of the media, their mission of expertise and academia, and his targeting of marginalized groups echo historical traits that are entirely associated with fascism. although trumpism does differ from 20th century fascism and certain key respect, there are legitimate concerns that a potential second term could pose a more significant threat to democracy. fascism and democracy or fundamentally incompatible. if you vote for a fascist, you are voting for, you are voting democracy into oblivion. this threat to american democracy, which may not perfectly aligned with traditional fascism, referred to by the american historian christopher browning as

isolationist fascism. and it poses a distinct danger to our democratic values. riding in the atlantic, browning owns, quote, just as state republicans have become more ruthlessly autocratic and their methods, a new trump presidency would be much more efficiently goal oriented at the federal level. a huge transformation of the administrative state is being deliberately planned. the government agencies and civil service he has a quite as the deep state would be purged or politicized, and the retribution he promised against his enemies would also be carried out in a new trump administration, total devotion to the leader would be the sole qualification for appointment, end quote. i'm now joined by the author of that piece, doctor christopher browning. he's a professor of american history at university of north carolina, chapel hill. he's also the author of the origins of the final solution, the evolution of nazi jewish policy. also with us, doctor even mcclain, and historian and professor, and an author of mussolini's children, race, and

elementary education in fascist italy. good morning to both of you. thank you for joining us for this nuanced discussion. this is definitely one that can't be taken out of context. we have to be very specific in how we are discussing comparisons about fascism today with fascism in the past. let me start with you, christopher. in the atlantic piece, you noted that for a long time, you were reluctant, for obvious reasons, to apply the term fascist to donald trump and his movement, because it trivializes the history of the world. but you reached a point, where i think you realize that something dangerous is happening in america, and it requires an updated definition about fascism. tell me a bit more about that. >> yes. i was reluctant to use the term because two key historical examples of fascism and power have been mussolini and hitler. and they have been noted for three things, totalitarian dictatorship, wars of aggression and conquest, and a vast violation of human rights in the areas they conquered, and with hitler even outright genocide.

and certainly, trump's first term, did not qualify for any of those as a comparable measure. so, i was very reluctant, despite the fascist style of the trump regime, and the kinds of things you talked about, conspiracy theories, embracing the violence, the nursing of grievance, and these kinds of things. and in practice, regimes seem to be dedicated to trying to satisfy insatiable need for attention and hatch election, not a program of dictatorship. but what's happened since then in planning for a potential second term, they trump administration has become much more deliberate. and they're now in fact open to what they're going to do, which is to strip away certain protections for a vast number of government employees, transformation of various agencies, particularly the fbi and the department of justice, and carry out retribution. and, so i think that does move

them into the stance of authoritarianism, dictatorship, potentially if they come into power, then i think it does indeed pass the threshold, and it is deserving of the term fascism. >> and that is why this conversation had to be had that no one's, it's easy to dismiss the idea, how can you possibly compare trump to hitler or mussolini. and we are not doing that, we are doing this within the context. in fact, he didn't, he wrote an article not too long ago, noting the similarities between governor desantis's efforts to control education which is an important part of fascist history, and italian fascist education. you wrote this in scientific american, in which she said, like fascism's promotion of idealized and entirely fabricated italian race, florida's curricular decision aims to mold students in the image of a very small portion of our country's population. i do not believe the desantis administration's actions rise

to the level of italian fascism under mussolini. but there are very real parallels that are extremely dangerous. desantis's ongoing efforts to concentrate power and perspective to, quote, protect floridians, has the potential to further erode the principles of open debate and collective responsibility that underpin democracy. i'd like to ask you to expand on that. >> sure. well, i think that, like christopher, very reluctant to use the term fascism. but i am increasingly concerned with the efforts to limit the amount of information americans received through the media and the education system, which is critical to create well educated, or rather, well informed citizens who can make well informed decisions about their readership. and i think that part of what

is so concerning about ron desantis, but also trump and like-minded politicians is that they are encouraging the facade of popular well and popular support for these ideas, even if these ideas are only held by a minority of americans and their leaders. and so, the limitations on education, but also as christopher notes, sort of the stymieing of pluralistic conversations in the government, mean that necessarily voters have less information to make really, really important decisions. decisions. imp>> it is definitely a distinction, a change in flavor from the 2016 election, and the 2020 election in two now, in this context, right? the greater derision of the

deep state, the greater division of the media. that's always been a feature of donald trump, but it's deepened. the use of his term retribution. mussolini used avenging, i believe. i'm your adventure. trump actually uses retribution as a noun, i am your retribution. what's the distinction? you said that something has changed from the trump administration to this trump campaign? >> i think what is really -- i mean, i think that what is really different is a, as christopher was talking about, is the limitation on the information that voters get, particularly as people are working from the ground up from state legislatures, and communities, community governance. their limitations on education, on information necessarily

limits how people can make decisions. i don't know if that's what you are asking me to respond to. >> i mean, it's a good question what i'm asking, my main question here is, what other than this conversation, christopher, do we do about this, right? there are reasonable thinking people who would say, definitely not looking for fascism. it's against what we do. but it's not only against what we do, it's not only contrary, christopher, to american principles, it's actually contrary to conservative principles. it's contrary to this individualism that conservatives and libertarians in this country hold so strongly. it's contrary to this thing that we call distinct in america, about who we are. so, what do you do to convince people that you have to stand up against this, christopher? >> one of the great ironies is that fascist have generally come to power through crucial support from traditional conservatives who thought they could control the fascists, and that the fascists could be

their kind of instrument to gain popularity that days themselves could not get. and of course, mussolini gain control by the use of conservatives rather than vice versa. one thing you try to do is teach history that really happened. and that's one of the reasons why we have history wars in which people like desantis are trying to rewrite history so that people can't use the iran stick of the past and the insights we get from the past to understand what's going on now. and so, basically, for educationists, that's why i've been spending my career teaching, we use the past in useful ways and in realistic ways. we don't engage in imaginary past to make us feel good. we just survey what really happened. and i think, the model should become, one of my great friends

noted, this is a movement to rewrite the curriculum of history throughout all the red states. and we will have a country that has starkly two different histories. and that's two different lessons from the past, in a sense, one in which democracy is not in danger, democracy is worth defending. and so, it is a battle of education in many ways. >> i want to discuss the historical parallels in terms of what is angering people, what impulse these leaders who lean toward fascism are responding to. but i gotta pay the bill. we're gonna take a quick break. we will come back with dr. christopher browning and doctor eden mclean, right after this break. and even when we metamorphosize into our new evolved form, we carry that spirit with us. because you can take alfa romeo out of italy.

but you best believe, you can't take the italy out of an alfa romeo. we got the house! you did! pods handles the driving. pack at your pace. store your things until you're ready. then we deliver to your new home - across town or across the country. pods, your personal moving and storage team. (woman) oh. oh! hi there. you're jonathan, right? the 995 plan! yes, from colonial penn. your 995 plan fits my budget just right. excuse me? aren't you jonathan from tv, that 995 plan? yes, from colonial penn. i love your lifetime rate lock. that's what sold me. she thinks you're jonathan, with the 995 plan. -are you? -yes, from colonial penn. we were concerned we couldn't get coverage, but it was easy with the 995 plan. -thank you. -you're welcome.

i'm jonathan for colonial penn life insurance company. this guaranteed acceptance whole life insurance plan is our #1 most popular plan. it's loaded with guarantees. if you're age 50 to 85, $9.95 a month buys whole life insurance with guaranteed acceptance. you cannot be turned down for any health reason. there are no health questions and no medical exam. and here's another guarantee you can count on: guaranteed lifetime coverage. your insurance can never be cancelled. just pay your premiums. guaranteed lifetime rate lock. your rate can never increase. pardon me, i'm curious. how can i learn more about this popular 995 plan? it's easy. just call the toll-free number for free information. (soft music) ♪ to help prevent bleeding gums. try saying 'hello gumwash' with parodontax active gum health.

it kills 99% plaque bacteria. and forms an antibacterial shield. >> coming up on the next hour try parodontax active gum health mouthwash.

of velshi, walt nauta and de oliveira, trump's codefendants in the mar-a-lago documents case, once low-level trump aides, but now, they are facing federal charges and jail time. despite that, nauta and de oliveira appeared to be staying close to the boss. all that talk of loyalty sounds like a scene straight out of a monster movie. >> and gratulations congratulations. you told them nothing and they got nothing. >> i got your man. >> man, i'm not ready. i'm proud of you. you learn the took weirdest things in life.

never bet on your friends and always keep your mouth shut. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> never rock on your friends, and always keep your mouth shut. you guys are my friends and i never keep my mouth. good morning. to its sunday july 30th. i'm ali velshi. until recently, you probably never even heard a walt nauta or a carlos de oliveira bitumen criminally indicted and listed in trump's codefendants and the classified documents matter. they are little known low-level staffers who are not involved with trump's campaign operations. they worked directly for the former president, reportedly fetching him diet cokes throughout the day and making sure his palm beach residents mar-a-lago as well maintained. aside from the fact that they worked for one of the most powerful people in the world, they are otherwise regular guys who found themselves in tangled and the notoriety of the twice impeached, twice indicted former president. nauta comes from a modest ba