always keep your mouth shut. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> never rock on your friends, and always keep your mouth shut. you guys are my friends and i never keep my mouth. good morning. to its sunday july 30th. i'm ali velshi. until recently, you probably never even heard a walt nauta or a carlos de oliveira bitumen criminally indicted and listed in trump's codefendants and the classified documents matter. they are little known low-level staffers who are not involved with trump's campaign operations. they worked directly for the former president, reportedly fetching him diet cokes throughout the day and making sure his palm beach residents mar-a-lago as well maintained. aside from the fact that they worked for one of the most powerful people in the world, they are otherwise regular guys who found themselves in tangled and the notoriety of the twice impeached, twice indicted former president. nauta comes from a modest background, he grew up in a

u.s. territory of guam. in 2000 and, when he listed in the navy. he rose to the rank of senior chief culinary specialist. and in 2012, he began working at the white house during barack obama's second term. he stayed on for the trump administration when he was eventually promoted to valley and stationed outside the oval office, tasked with anticipating trumps every night. they formed a good working relationship. and when trump left the white house, he asked nauta to come work for him full-time. we know even less about carlos de oliveira. we don't even have a photo of him, and we might not get our first glimpse of him until tomorrow, when he is scheduled to make his first appearance in federal court in miami. but from what we do know, de oliveira is 56 years old. he worked at mar-a-lago for about 20 years. he's held multiple roles. currently, is the property manager of the resort. the special counsel jack smith's legal team has now charged both nauta and de oliveira with multiple crimes, including conspiracy to obstruct justice. prosecutors allege that nauta

and de oliveira carried out trump's orders and moved dozens of boxes of government records, including many that were classified around mar-a-lago, in order to prevent federal authorities, and even trump's own lawyers from finding them. if convicted, they could face years-long prison sentences. at this time, both men still remain employed by donald trump. they are surely valued by the work effort, but even more so because they demonstrated their loyalty to a fault. trump, as you, know, quote, values loyalty among everything else. that is a direct quote from one of his own. loyalty is an important requirement if you want to work for donald trump. we call the one-on-one dinner with the former fbi director james comey dinner with trump back in 2017, during which comey said he was asked to pledge -- the justice department superseding indictment released last week also eludes to the idea of how important loyalty is to trump. here's apart from it. just over two weeks after the fbi discovered classified

documents in the storage room and trump's office on august 26th, 2022, now are called trump employees, called trump employee five, and said words to the effect of, someone wants to make sure if carlos is good, unquote. in response, trump employee five told nauta that de oliveira was -- loyal and that de oliveira would not do anything to affect his relationship with trump. that same day, trump employed nauta and the pack representative that de oliveira was loyal. that same day, trump called de oliveira and told de oliveira that trump would get de oliveira an attorney, in court. now at that nauta and de oliveira are tangled in trump's web of lies and deceiving, finding themselves in difficult and perilous legal positions. according to filing from the federal election commission, we know that in 2022, the firm where de oliveira attorney's apartment has paid more than $189,000 by donald trump's save america back, similarly, the

law firm for which nauta's lawyer works was paid $120,000 to a november of last year. both cases, it's not clear that it's just to cover each of their legal bills since post law firms represent other figures in trump's orbit. but according to a new report from the washington post, trump's safe america pack spent more than $40 million in just the first six months of 23, covering legal fees for trump and others in his orbit. quote, that total is more than any other expense that the pack has incurred during the presidential campaign. and according to federal filings from earlier this month, more than trump's campaign raised in the second quarter of 2023. joining me now is catherine christian, she's a former assistant district attorney in manhattan, a former assistant counsel for the new york state commission of investigation, and msnbc legal analyst. also with us, former democratic congresswoman elizabeth holtzman of new york. she was a member of the house judiciary committee in 1973,

which voted to impeach the president richard nixon. she's also the author of the book, the case for impeaching trump. good morning to both of you. thank you for being with us. please, let me start with you, and i'm gonna ask you this as a former prosecutor, liz, but he upheld many accidents, including in the nixon investigation and impeachment which also involve some low level people. if you were a prosecutor in this case, would these guys, nauta, de oliveira, this other guy, taveras, who we learned is trump employee number four, i believe, would they fit the profile of the type of witnesses who you would be looking for to cooperate in your case? >> well, normally, you would. but these people have a big incentive not to cooperate. first of all, they are working for donald trump, and he is paying their salary right now. secondly, he is paying their lawyers bills. so, they have an incentive to hang on. ve t but they are facing serious,

serious jail time here, and the charges are very simple, and very clear, involved against carlos de oliveira, it involves lying to the fbi. the other one, against both of them, removing boxes and concealing information. so, that is on tape, so, going back to the nixon times, that's on tape -- so, it's very hard for them to avoid conviction in my opinion. but whether they'll ultimately turn, i don't know. >> catherine, i wish everybody read the indictment, because you can see the language in there, you can see the transcripts of the recording. carlos de oliveira was asked questions in an investigation about whether he did x or y. he wasn't asked questions about his opinion of trump, or overturning the election, we're keeping documents, or any of that stuff. he was asking questions about what he did that would prove to be lies. now his legal attorney says, we are lying to the fbi. that's not really loyalty to the boss, although that clip i

show, you know, before we started, that is i guess what criminal enterprises consider loyalty to the boss. >> so, what i've seen, and also my i just say, it's an honor to be on with liz holtzman, who is a model for ethics and integrity -- what i've seen investigating criminal organizations, our goal as a prosecutor, first, you want the head. you want the boss. you don't want the low level schmoes. you need to prosecute them. what you look to do is half of them cooperate. so in this case, and what i've seen, you have a misguided sense of loyalty, generally, when you have these criminal organizations. the lower level people, you know, they do what they did because the boss told him to, because they are loyal to the boss. and as the case moves along, as they are lawyers, if they are lawyers are loyal to them, their client, sees the evidence, they begin to smell that smoking gun tape. and they realize, particularly they've never done prison time, i'm not going to prison for this guy.

they also look around. and then, they decide, they talk to their family members who are telling them, stop listening to the boss, who's telling you don't plead. they decide, they're either gonna cooperate, they're gonna plead guilty, which will require them to implicate the other people, or, you know, they just decided that they're gonna roll the dice. and the people i found who rolled the dice ended up serving time in prison. so, i think what you have here is a misguided sense of loyalty. i can only imagine you have, you know, donald trump out there saying how wonderfully these two codefendants are. that, to me, this is considered a subtle way of saying, remain loyal, you know. so, that's what i see here, which i've seen happen so many other times and other cumulations. >> i'm glad kathryn, what you said about liz holtzman, you've been talking for years. i never want our viewers to forget how grateful we are for you and your expertise, not just as a prosecutor. you were there, in fact, when

richard nixon was being impeached. and you had some pretty important discussions about that time. we'll always grateful to you. i want to ask you something, liz, that kathryn just pointed out. she said in her response about the lawyer, she said if they are lawyers, meaning walt nauta and de oliveira's, if their lawyers are loyal to them, the lawyers being paid for by a trump pac, but a lawyer is supposed to be lawyer to their clients, and at some point, when they look at this evidence, what's that honest conversation looking like? what do the the lawyers say two de oliveira or nauta, you've got a strong case against two. you could go to jail for a very long time for donald trump? >> a lawyer is not supposed to represent clients that have different, or conflicting, loyalties. and that's what's happened, or what appears to be happening here. this lawyer is representing both the pac, which the money

is being raised by donald trump for the pac. and he is representing people who work for trump, and have the evidence against trump, could have evidence against trump, critical evidence against trump. so, what side is he on? and as it was, i don't think we know this yet, that one of the employees at mar-a-lago, the one who gave evidence that resulted in carlos, de oliveira 's indictment, originally with being represented by a lawyer bag by the pac. and then, a judge intervened, and said he's gonna have a different lawyer because of the conflict. so, we have a situation where we can't be sure, we hope, but we can't be sure that the lawyer representing these two employees of donald trump is giving them totally untarnished advice. the fact is that the evidence

looks pretty damning for them, and if they were smart, i think kathryn i've -- had the privilege of working with her, very, very smart and very experienced person, she said it exactly right. they think that their loyalty should stay with donald trump, but they could wind up spending a lot of years in prison. and if they think that he's gonna be elected president, they got something, and pardon them, they got something else to think about -- >> that's interesting, catherine. i guess if i'm one of these defendants, i'm not thinking about a few things, right? if donald trump is not convicted, i will get to keep working for him. if donald trump is president, i might get pardoned, probably likely get pardoned. you must have had a lot of cases where a defendant has to weigh all that stuff. i had michael cohen on in the last hour, who said the most important part in this camp discussion, am i going to risk being removed away from my family, my kids, my friends, my life?

is that risk worth it? how does the prosecutor work that conversation with the defendant, to say, it's the federal government. we have a good case against you. as liz keeps pointing out, it's not a complicated case. one of the various things that trump is facing, it may not be the very more impactful to people, but it's the very straightforward. >> and it's that conversation that prosecutors had with defense attorneys. first of all, each of the co-defendants have a charge that stands alone, lying to the fbi. but martha stewart, martha stewart did time for lying to the fbi. so, the conversation, the prosecutor would have with the defense attorneys, and hopefully the defense attorneys will have with their client's, look, you are dead on that count. and that is a lot of time. it's like, you went with an attorney, and if the fbi is calling you and then speaking to you, they already know the answers to the questions. and you did not give truthful answers.

yes, obviously, a jury still has to find if that happened beyond a reasonable doubt. but that's the conversation that the lawyer, who is loyal to the client, we'll have with a client. the prosecutor will just remind them, look, you are not going back to bedminster golf club, you know, any of the mansions, secret service protection. look at what you have. are you gonna risk what you work for and your family for a possible pardon in the future, which probably will not happen? >> liz, last question. do these guys matter to the case? this case seems to have a lot of stuff. as you said, they got a lot of stuff on tape. footage, all sorts of things, recordings. how much do these low-level guys matter? >> well, they have a lot to say about donald trump. they could explain -- we don't have it so far as the indictment says. we don't have direct evidence that donald trump told them to destroy the tapes. they could say that we had this conversation.

they could also, they may also know why donald trump is lying, conspiring, doing all these things to keep these documents, when all he had to do to avoid this is turn over what belongs to the u.s. government months and months, years ago. we still don't understand why -- >> i don't -- >> -- >> ice of don't understand. this whole case could have been avoided. i'm not entirely sure how trump got himself into this hot water. this is sometimes somebody who is looking for trouble. thanks to both of you. catherine christian, former assistant district attorney in manhattan, msnbc legal analyst. and former democratic congresswoman elizabeth holtzman of new york, the author of the case for impeaching trump. still ahead this hour on velshi, learning milestones when it comes to this deadly heat. phoenix, arizona, now endured 30 consecutive days of temperatures over 110 degrees. and it's getting worse. plus, far-right ideologies are filling the halls of congress. but these aren't just fringe

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severe to be treated, but it doesn't. as we speak day five of an visit findahandspecialist.com today to get started. attempted coup is undergoing overseas and the nation of nazir, -- overthrow the democratically elected president. he was the first to succeed that last democratically elected president. the military leaders have suspended all government institutions, and install their general is that state. friday, the soldiers and as that they ousted the government due to deteriorating security, and quote. the other is thought to be a personal dispute between the president and the general. it's not immediately clear the president have resigned, or even where he was.

we now know he has been detained in the capital of niamey since wednesday. state department officials say that the attempted military coup in niger has been marked by confusion, shifting alliances, and fluidity. it's certainly one reason what the u.s. government has not yet officially declared this a coup. niger is a key partner in the -- if the u.s. does seem this to be a military coup, it will have to freeze the more than $400 million in aid that was earmarked for the west african nation, and c security and other cooperation. that could jeopardize security and not security partnerships in the country. niger as a key part of the african nation, it is a land that stretches from the atlantic ocean to the red sea. the area has been plagued by jihadists and military regimes. this is a quickly developing story. msnbc will bring you the latest news as updates from niger become available. right after the break, this extreme heat that we are

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oh. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ it's hot, but you don't need me to tell you. that tomorrow is the last day of july, which is expected to have been the hottest july worldwide in recorded human history. nearly 200 million people in the united states, 60% of the population, are under heat advisories are flood warnings this weekend according to the national weather service. record breaking heat waves continue to scorch the country, and the world. this summer has produced the hottest day on record globally, which was broken the next day, and the next day, and the next day. some of the longest he waves in history in the longest he waves, with the highest low temperature, the highest overnight temperature, the highest ocean temperature. it's no surprise that climate scientists have now declared

july, there's one more day, but it's not going to change the average, the world's hottest month on average. phoenix, arizona, hoskins gerard 30 days of -- of 110 degrees fahrenheit. hospitals are filling up with heat related illnesses from heatstroke to severe burns as metal and pavement reach temperatures so high that they can cost second and third degree burns within seconds. children get burns on their feet if they do not have shoes on. adults collapse from the heat get burns if they fall down on the pavement. hospitals are seeing patients coming with internal body temperatures of 105 degrees. so high that one risks brain damage and death. it's hot virtually everywhere. if you look at an urban area, you're actually likely feeling it worse. that's because of a phenomenon called urban heat islands. cities with a ton of concrete and pavement, to metal, and not a lot of green space absorb more heat. researchers say that urban heat islands can reach temperatures that are more than ten degrees higher then open green spaces

that are just minutes away. and surprisingly, urban heat islands are disproportionately home, you guessed it, to low income and minority groups. on thursday, president biden announced actions to protect workers and communities from extreme. he this includes -- weather forecasts and expanded water storage. many climate activists say that those measures fall flat. they want to see the biden administration take bolder action on the upper worsening threat of climate change, and climate activist wants to hear promises from biden on actually restricting the production of fossil fuels. there has been progress on that front from this administration. many say they need more. that we need more. joining me now is ebony mark, the executive director of greenpeace, usa. ebony, thank you for being with us this morning. when i am sorry this is a conversation we need to have. i live in an urban heat island of manhattan. it's definitely hotter than other places are.

i'm not low income, i have air conditioning, i have a lot of options. i can have people deliver my food, i can have all sorts of things happen to protect me from this heat. i have to bear getting to public transit, or getting somewhere, but that is it. the limitations i face are much less than the limitations other people face in urban islands with this kind of heat. >> first of all, ali, thank you so much for having me. yes, it is unfortunate that we are discussing this. we certainly do appreciate president biden's efforts and addressing the climate crisis, specifically what he has laid out with hazardous alerts for workers. we do need to take care of our workers. investing in clean water so that we, so our cities can receive these materials and they can cool down. all of the investments with the iri, and building green and renewable energy. however, what we're doing is putting a band-aid on a problem

instead of addressing the root cause. president biden himself said the number one weather related -- 's heat. the root cause of the heats, what's driving this heat, is the continued production of oil and gas. fossil fuels infrastructure and build out. we cannot continue to put band-aids on this issue. we need to address it. no amount of trees that we plant, no amount of recycling, no amount of carbon capture technology is going to address this issue. as you said, americans are dealing with this every day. we are seen 100 year floods every five years. we are seeing blistering temperatures across the country. florida's oceans are boiling. we can't even get into the ocean at this point. when we talk about the health impacts, we know fossil fuel production is linked to higher death rates, higher asthma

rates, respiratory issues, heart disease. this is something that folks are dealing with every day. we do need this administration to take bold and decisive action, and that is what the immediate phase out of fossil fuels, and i just manage transition. that way we can claim renewable energy. >> sorry to interrupt. i want to get to this point by showing you two conflicting headlines. both of which are actually true. take a look at the first. one biden administration, oil, gas, drilling approvals outpace trump's. that's a little hard to read. on the right side it says, biden's first year, or a robust record of climate action. how do you reconcile those two things? >> a voters did a lot to get president biden into office. we were and these, we were happy about [silence]

it is true. it has done more than any other president or administration. all, e that cannot be the bar right now. that just isn't the bar. the bar right now is what science and justice demand. the science is very clear. what we have is kind of like he's nailing water out of the -- -in-one and, well drilling holes with the other. we have the approval of the mountain valley, i'm sorry, the willow project, which many activists came out and said that was biden backsliding on his promise. he also approve the mountain pipeline. this will ignite over 89 million, 89 million tons of carbon dioxide. you cannot do subtraction while you continue to add. while he has made great strides, it simply isn't enough at this moment. we are dealing with an excess sensual crisis. and existential crisis requires

existential solutions that are commiserate with a crisis that we're dealing with. >> i would say the one benefit to 2023 is that we're not having nonsensical arguments about, you know, what causes this. you're speaking the truth about fossil fuels. however, i want to show you a research poll from april of 2023 which shows that's, the question asked, do you believe the u.s. should reach carbon neutrality by 2050? by the, way there's a whole bunch of people who think 2050 is too far out. 90% of democrats and lovely need independents that yes, tempest and say. now i'd like to know who this temper santas. 44% of republicans are right-leaning independents say yes, 53% say no. 53% of republicans and right -leaning independents do not believe that carbon net neutrality should be a goal by 2050. ebony, that's not even, that is low hanging fruit by getting to this by 2050. there's a whole bunch of people that think that should be done by 2030. there are people who would like that it's done now. >> i know. that's scary.

this is a tough issue that i think that we have consistently dealt with. i think that what we're going to have to do is appeal to peoples values, and the conditions that they are faced with. so, if the republicans aren't believing in the scientists, perhaps they'll believed the military. the military has been on record saying that the climate crisis is a cause for national concern. it does hinder our operations, it does create economic instability. when we have droughts like we're experiencing, now we have the worst drought in 1000 years. the military is saying that this is a concern. we also need to put pressure, i, think on businesses that are aligning themselves with climate deniers. once they realize that climate change does impact their bottom line, they should speak out and align themselves with folks like that. we also know that it's a non partisan issue in florida.

we have desantis, who says that climate change isn't happening. then we have the mayor of miami who is dealing with rising sea levels in his city, having to come up with a budget conditions and rearrange finances, to ensure that they have what they need to ensure the city is protected with these category five hurricanes. it's not a partisan issue. the other thing that i will just say to appeal to folks. the right, they do read the good book, the bible. one of the first commandments was to protect, and to make sure that the earth is sustainable. at this rate that we're going, our kids won't be able to sail and the lakes we sailed in. we won't be able to see the snow patted mountains with them. we can't even get in the ocean at this point. it's not a partisan issue. it's a humanitarian issue. that is what we need to speak

to. >> i share your view on that. thank you for voicing it so clearly, we appreciate that. ebony is the executive director of greenpeace usa. all, right coming out. let me introduce you to 20. it's a growing far-right faction in congress. we don't know a lot about this group news and it, but it almost doesn't matter. the point is that the republican party is creeping further and further to the right. right. and road-test evaluations... and the results are in. subaru is the 2023 best mainstream automotive brand, according to consumer reports. and subaru has seven consumer reports recommended models. outback, forester, solterra, crosstrek, ascent, impreza, and legacy. it's easy to love a brand you can trust. it's easy to love a subaru. (woman) oh. oh! hi there. you're jonathan, right? the 995 plan! yes, from colonial penn. your 995 plan fits my budget just right.

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age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv the republican party has been

creeping further to the right since donald trump's presidency. there's a new faction within the house gop, and it's the result of a surge of far-right by -- filling the halls of capitol hill. the new york times reports, quote, as a republican party's move further to the right, the fringe has become the mainstream. this was the ranks of the freedom caucus plan makes it difficult for the group to stay aligned on policy and strategy. the rise of another hard right faction in the house calling itself, the 20. including some members of the caucus and some who have long refused to join, has raised questions in recent months about where the real power lies on the right. the 20 is a very exclusive, and very mysterious. it stems from the well-established hard-line house freedom caucus. the freedom caucus was established in 2015, just

before donald trump announced his run for the presidency. it stems from another conservative group, which is the republican study committee. the point, as these groups are multiplying. they're getting more extreme. they have a great influence in congress. the simultaneous rise of both the freedom caucus and trump himself highlights a growing populist sentiment in the united states. during the trump era, these conservative rebels wield considerable power, with some even landing influential roles in the white house. the rise of these hyper conservative factions is injustice five by the united states, it mirrors our broader trend sweeping across the western world. president joe biden's recent meeting with the italian prime minister, giorgia meloni, despite earlier concerns about her extreme governments impact on democracy, underscores the growing influence of the far-right. from italy, france, sweden, to finland, austria, and the netherlands, once marginalized far-right parties are now on the march. they're gaining respectability, empower across the west.

they are making significant power in the polls, they're shaping mainstream right wing policies to express nativist platforms and securing government positions. these movements share common traits. they rely on grassroots and bottom's up strategies that tap into widespread discontent and frustration with the political establishment. the burning question is for today's hyper conservative republican factions in america is just how far they're willing to push the boundaries and embrace disruption to shake things up. for more on this, i'm joined by steve bannon, producer for the rachel maddow show and an msnbc political contributor. he's also the author of the impostors, how republicans quick governing and seize american politics. i'm also joined by the senior correspondent at fox who covers the challenges to democracy in the united states, and abroad. welcome to both of you for this important conversation. steve, let me start with you. you've been reporting on this, the 20. some of these things show up and you never hear from them again. some of them become central to

our politics. the way things are going, the 20 might become central to our politics. who are they, what are they? >> let's see. we have right wing members of congress, they're secretive. they're meeting in private, and they don't talk about. it what could possibly go wrong? the truth of the matter is, we don't get a sense of their identities. we don't have a list of the membership. we don't have a sense of their vision or agenda. at the same time, we do know that they exist. we know that they're making plans, we know that they consider themselves to be separate and distinct from the house he'll caucus. as it turns, out some of the members of the freedom caucus are not necessarily in line with their own agenda. they consider them to be too aligned with leadership. the fact that this entity exists, it's faction excess, it's something that we all need to be concerned about and keep a close eye on. >> sack, one of the things that are behind these far-right factions that they're actually more common than you think. i wanted to people all the time to carry on about donald trump or trumpism, or whatever is going on. we're not even, we didn't start this in america. in fact, we're a little bit

late to the game when you look at what's been going on in western europe for a while. >> that's right. so the way to understand the current rise of the far-right, globally, is to really trace, starting with world war ii in the end of world war ii, the effect on the way that the far-right marketed itself. after the end of that conflict, and the exposure of what really happened it or not to germany, plus it's defeats, far-right politics in traditional means was delegitimized. you couldn't have people who outright railed against democracy. instead, what you had are these movements that figured out how to articulate the same kinds of concerns about minority groups, about social change happening too fast, about a sense that democracy was disorienting an upset in. this is a democratic atm. you start to get movements. this was pioneered by le pen in france, a nationalist party. this used language of multiculturalism nationalism to re-articulate the same kinds of

grievances. a far-right sense of disconnect, with change happening too quickly and minorities in their mitts. this was a way that felt more palatable. that kind of politics has become dominant in many places around the world, even some places you might not of thought of. and the u.s., you, know we've always had our own version of this kind of politics. we now really are seen a surge, at the same time that we're seeing a surge in a lot of other advanced democracies. >> you mention the pen. this is the father of the pen. by the, way he was very competitive in the french elections. he was a right wing weirdo, waco in the days. these movements were far off. this is something that is weird here in america, steve. it's not that we didn't have these groups, we've had them all through american history, it's the mainstreaming of the groups, and the remarkable influence they have. when you wonder about how you get mainstream, you look at the election of kevin mccarthy,

right? it's a group of 20 people who basically caused him to bowl to the right in order to become the speaker of the house, after 14, ballots affecting ballots. >> i was just thinking as we're having this conversation that and not too distant past, you and i considered a gop moderate to be someone who, i don't know, is pro-choice. or who was somehow skeptical of more tax cuts for billionaires. 2023, a gop moderate is someone who believes election results count. that they should be allowed to participate in the process, cast ballots in free and fair elections. the fact that what counts as moderation now has gone, it's become so ridiculous. the fact that was once was considered ridiculous is on the gop mainstream. it reinforces this problem in terms of what the threat is posed to our democracy. the threat posed to our political system. the rise of this authoritarian model that is overtly hostile to american democracy itself. it is a scary scenario, but i'm not convinced that we should fall into despair, because i

think vigilance is the cost of liberty, there is no point in any crisis where we can say yes democracy is -- and we can be confident is safe. it doesn't work that way. the work continues, the work always has to continue. i think that we're seeing, here in around the world, that is actually the case. you know we're seeing protests in israel, we've seen protests in poland, we're seeing the box party in spain, they have received this in recent elections. we're seeing a response to this authoritarian model in united states, i see this encouraging. >> this is a good point, eternal vigilance is the cost of liberty. i want to pick that up with you on the other side. stay with me, we're going to bring a little optimism into this discussion when we come back. this discussion when we come back. rotein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv as someone living with type 2 diabetes,

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an msn b.c. political commentary, senior correspondent at fox covering challenges to democracy in the u.s. and abroad. steve left us with a great thought at the end of the last segment where he said internal vigilance is the price of liberty. zak, i want to pick up on this. as steve mentioned, around the world, not just in the western european countries that were talking, about israel's another example, to some degree in india, we are seeing a challenges to these populist nativist movements that are led by some fascist leaders, and right-wing parliaments.

all hope is not lost. >> that's right. so one pattern that i've noticed as i've been reporting on this topic, the topic of what works to resist against this kind of authoritarian -ization in the past year, or two years. and spend that making the arguments that democracy is important actually works. that seems counterintuitive, right? a lot of people say, well, the polling numbers see people prioritizing democracy. actually, what the evidence is that people care about the economy, are they care about crime, et cetera. we saw the 2022 midterms in the united states that didn't quite work. it turns out that every candidates proceed secretary of state. every candidate for the governorship, in a competitive election who denied the results of the 2020 presidential election, they're lost. they lost either to republicans or democrats. we've seen in israel, there's a tremendous movement galvanized with democracy being the main buzzword. the war that was used to rally the troops. and brazil's election last year,

bolsonaro is the leader of this far-right populist international wave. he lost. you can look at the margins. he lost precisely because he guarded the endorsement of the center-right candidate who disagreed with him on really important issues like abortion. sorry, disagreed with a left's position on abortion. this cost bolsonaro the election because he endorsed the left one candidate. it turns out that one democracy is under threat, some people feel like it could be made to understand that it's under threat, they're willing to mobilize. the mobilize the mass movement in the profoundly affected one. they can challenge the foundations of these movements that need to pretend that they're democratic. that's something that we don't see. they put up of a new european democratic. finding a way to dramatize that is proving key in country after country around the world, and to me, is at the heart of the emerging resistance. >> this is what confuses me about what's going on in the united states, steve. when we, the last hour talked about fascism, and fascism is

incompatible with individualism and the things that could survive some libertarians, and liberals, in america believe in. yet, we are seeing this embraced by state legislatures, republicans in congress. it can't be in sync with our actual political ideology simple eats. i understand doing things because you want trump's endorsement, but beyond that, what's this for? what does this get these republican members of congress? >> it gets them power. it gets them influence, it gets them in a position where they can were jacked liberalism, they can stifle liberalism, they can kind of keep their foot on civil liberties. it gives them an opportunity to gradually undermine democracy, which i think increasingly, as part of this maga movements that donald trump controls the party. it's not new. you know, we've seen this gradually, incrementally, taking the steps over the course of the last several

years. i think that my fear is it's only going to get worse. this effort, we saw project 2025. once trump's, if trump is reelected, we increased steps to consolidate the party. to consolidate power at the white house, to control even more influence, more power. that's a scary scenario. at least we have a sense that it's coming. we have a sense that this threat is on the horizon. then we can take steps in the short term. this can anticipate, that and get it under control. >>, sack one of the things that's interesting, italy as an example, or israel as an example, these are places where there are several political parties. you only gain power, generally speaking, parties don't win majorities and things like that. we have the struggle in america. we have two political parties, one that seems functional, one that doesn't. we have talk about a third party, or third candidates. there is a lot of people who, thank you know if we have more political parties, that would help. that can also go too far. 's role in italy are examples of that too many political

parties. they aren't functional democracies by virtue of the fact that no one can ever get a mandate to do anything. what role to parties play and this dysfunction that we're watching? >> parties are essential to democracy, right? parties are vehicles organized in the interest, views, ideas of the citizens, and articulate them in a way that makes them politically possible to deal with. you need to have parties. the problem is, what kind of party arrangement is the one that best inoculates a country against the rise of extremist fascism -- factions, excuse me. the conventional wisdom you see the two party system of the best way to do that, because a two party system would have basically adults in the room who could block the governments from becoming a far-right vehicle. they could basically agree. this happened in germany, as one example among many. this skips out the far-right extremist parties in an effort to win a coalition government.

excuse, me that yelp was my dog in the background. the real concern and the u.s., as we've seen, is that a faction was control of a minority of a major party, there is nothing you can do to stop them at that point. either plurality, as we've seen -- >> that, your job is obviously a jen psaki fan it was yelping to say that i actually have to wrap the show. we'll have to continue this later. we appreciate that. steve bannon and zach peacham, that does it for me. thanks for watching. stay right where you are. inside with jen psaki, which said dog as a fan of, starts next. >> donald trump gets hit with even more federal charges. just not the charges we were all expecting. with all eyes on the grand jury and wash into, and the special counsel causes and whiplash by filing a superseding indictment in florida. congressman adam schiff is