we'll be watching that portugal game very, very closely. i'll send it back to you. >> go, team usa. it would be an awesome closer for megan who is closing out an epic career. that does it for me, everybody. "deadline white house" starts right now. ♪♪ ♪♪ hi there, everyone. it is 4:00 in new york. i'm ayman mohyeldin for nicole wallace. it is the age-old expression for donald trump and by extension, his aides caught up in the classified documents indictment. today carlos de oliveira, the mar-a-lago property manager, newly charged in jack smith's documents case was in court. it was his first public appearance since being named in last night's superseding indictment accused of telling a mar-a-lago employee, the boss wanted surveillance footage deleted, footage sought by the

department of justice at the time. he's also accused of lying to investigators. again, it is not the crime, folks. it is the cover-up, but there is a delay. de oliveira hasn't secured local counsel to represent him in florida so the judge asked him to return later, next thursday, to go about the arraignment. if all of this sounds familiar, that's because the other trump aide indicted in the classified documents case, the valet, walt nauta, twice had his not guilty plea postponed for the very same reason and perhaps you're saying to yourself, what a stroke of bad fortune. both indicted trump associates somehow unable to find a florida lawyer, thereby delaying their trials with the 2024 election fast approaching. go figure. this afternoon, there are also significant concerns surrounding de oliveira's legal fees, specifically who is going to pay for them. it's reportedly a trump pact and that raises a number of major

questions that we will address throughout the hour, but first, consider how this particular moment in time reflects a pattern between the early 2000s and today. carlos de oliveira went from parking cars and fixing stuff at mar-a-lago for around $10,000 a year to filing for bankruptcy before rising to the position of property manager, and "the new york times" takes it from there. quote, the pact de oliveira follows is familiar in the world of trump who often uses leverage and obsesses constantly about loilt in his business career as a candidate and as president, mr. trump has frequently plucked subordinates from trouble and obscurity and given them a lifeline and by extension, a sense of obligation to him. those opportunities and obligations have sometimes come with a cost including, as in the case of mr. de oliveira, serious legal jeopardy, but in terms of legal jeopardy, it's actually hard to top trump himself.

the mar-a-lago documents case is after all, one-half of special counsel jack smith's dual investigations. today trump posted an indictment having to do with january 6th will be coming out any day now. so in the broader scheme, a period of reckoning and consequences for donald trump is really just getting started. joining our conversation this hour, former u.s. senator claire mccaskill, betsy woodruff swann and with me at the table former a deputy assistant attorney general harry lipman. it's great to have all of you with us. betsy, let's start with you and fill in the blanks with what happened. carlos de oliveira was supposed to be arraigned and figure how he figures into the classified documents case and how does the justice department proceed from here? >> that's right. from the process standpoint oliveira went to court today. the judge told him what the charges against him are, but he did not enter a plea because, as

you said, he doesn't yet have local counts will in florida. that will slow things down, but listen, there are a lot of lawyers in florida. so he'll only be able to argue for so long that he couldn't find somebody local on the ground to help represent him in this case, and though, of course, he's strictly unlikely to avail himself of this right as any criminal defendant he also has the right to use court-appointed counsel and a public defender available to him. in terms of the way he fits more broadly into this sprawling, classified documents saga, de oliveira was a property manager at mar-a-lago, and he worked for trump for many, many years and starting lower on the wrung of trump's former entity. trump likes having these people who work with him for a long time who build their entire careers around him as a person, around him as a company. trump cares more than just about

everybody about loyalty, about feeling that people are indebted to him and feeling like people owe him something and carlos de oliveira would have appeared to fit into that mold given the extraordinary amount of time he spent working for trump and the indictment describes activity that almost feels like it was ripped from a crime tv show. de oliveira and other characters working through hallways in mar-a-lago with a flashlight to see if they can find security cameras that might have captured wrongdoing and trying to delete an entire server that are reminiscent of the way this trump himself rivalled hillary clinton and the way that he and mike called for hillary clinton to be locked up and using the same verbage, and called for trump's subordinates to do on his very own behalf. so de oliveira's now an addition

to this criminal case against trump points not just to the repetition of themes that we've seen at least as alleged by the justice department of trump leaning on subordinates that are, treatmently loyal to engage in activity that he himself didn't want to engage in, but it also points to that extremely granular approach and people that worked at all levels of mara lag and people who were the foot soldiers of trump's entity rather than the more prominent, political allies and government allies that trump's accumulated. >> donald trump addressed the indictments this weekend in pennsylvania. i want to play that for our viewers. watch. >> they waited two and a half, almost three years so that they could bring them right in the middle of my presidential election because it is election interference. deranged jack smith and the doj will probably bring another case

along with the d.a. we have a racist d.a. and crime-ridden atlanta. that's a great badge of honor because i'm being indicted for you. >> a badge of honor because i'm being indicted for you and again, reporting indicates that trump is privately rattled over these indictments. what is the latest on his state of mind? what is the reporting on that front particularly with another indictment seemingly on the horizon? trump continues to be treating his legal troubles like they are actually political troubles. that's the approach he's taken for so much of his time in public life as he's dealt with all sorts of legal issues related to his actions and now that is very much is continuing. what we are also seeing is trump simultaneously, of course, experiencing the level of concern anyone would experience when they face the justice department indictment, but in a

turn of events and appearing to have the presidential primary from the fact that he's in so much legal jep art p/e trump and his team are very much working to make the most out of these indict ams to use them for fund-raising, to use them to suck up all of the media oxygen that otherwise could be focused on republican rivals and of course, in that clip that you just played for trump himself to telegraph that he's some sort of martyr that is taking slings and arrows on behalf of his supporters that if they weren't busy criminal charges against him, they'd be bringing criminal charges against the countless people that support him politically which, of course, is just not true. politically, it is something that he and his team see as helpful and we should expect that to continue for the foreseeable future in the primary. >> he will continue to continue to project himself as the martyr for his followers, but let me ask yah what we saw today and that is the lack of an

arraignment, so to speak. >> is it surprising that de oliveira wasn't able to find counsel and this indictment was supposed to happen and two, when you look at the pattern of behavior between what has happened with him and walt nauta, and you can't help, but see a pattern emerge here. one that benefit grinds to a halt and delayed two, three or four weeks this only benefits donald trump in the long run. >> absolutely. the goal is to get this past november 2024 and he only needs six more months and the strategy is to do it in bits and pieces and one big chunk. the big chunk being the classified document and in terms of bits and pieces and now ittate up a month in finding local counsel. the short answer to your question it's not very hard to find local counsel. local counsel is someone who pretty much just stands up with you and is not in any sense the

strategist that you need and we'll see when it absolutely is part of the playbook that nauta had. that's one more bid. one more bid. check that box. check that box and little by little we're looking at september, october and then an argument by trump, oh, you can't bring it now because -- >> it's supposed to be december and here we are in may. >> and it may make sense, but they need, i think, little bits and pieces and so far de oliveira is good for his own starting piece. >> let me ask you about the legal defense here. so delay is the tactic, but let me play for you what one of trump's lawyers said on fox news this weekend? >> what was the obstruction of justice because no tapes were deleted. he turned them over and he cooperated as he always does. you will see that every single video, every single surveillance tape that was requested was turned over. if president trump didn't want something turned over i assure you that is something that could have been done, but he never would act like that. he's the most ethical american i

know. >> besides that last part, the most ethical american i know, what do you make of that as a legal argument that if he wanted to destroy the tapes, if he wanted to hide something he is certainly competent enough to do it and not get busted. >> of course, he isn't. one of the vulnerability, he can't act alone and he always has to act with other people. as a legal matter, it's bankrupt. this is a conspiracy charge. a conspiracy charge is to pursue something illegal and he's definitely done. there's no requirement that the tapes wind up being deleted. come on, as soon as he finds out that they want the surveillance tape he has a 24-minute conversation with de oliveira who along with -- there's a real gang who couldn't shoot straight aspect that ensues. they're in the tunnels and trying to figure it out. the whole idea that there are surveillance tapes seem to take them by surprise, but anyway, tell it to the jury. it's really clear that the effort is to delete them and that's all that's require urn

the conspiracy law. so it's a legal argument that's all wet. >> speaking of a gang that can't shoot. de oliveira, one trump employee said who the hell is that? does that speak to the obscure nature of de oliveira's position in the broader trump world or is this a classic of coffee boy, never knew the guy strategy where he tries to separate himself from aides under scrutiny. >> if trump would have talked to some of the people higher up and around him maybe lawyers that have now fallen away, they obviously would have said no,

you can't delete the security tapes after receiving the subpoena for the security tapes. instead, he reached out to someone he perceived was very loyal to him that would have access to the people that would have the security tapes and for the first time we have now a direct line from donald trump to a conspiracy to break the law, and what we have is we have this property manager who went to others it try to do what donald trump wanted and would delete this tape and they have come forward and they have provided credible evidence and testimony about what they were told, and they have the phone records. they have the videotape. so this is really a big deal. this would be like us having pence testifying that trump said i want to steal the election. or this would be like mark meadows admitting to a grand jury that yes, trump was trying to make up that the election was a fraud when he knew it wasn't.

this is a big deal and if you read the indictment it is unbelievable powerful what they have laid out in this indictment. this is a very strong case. >> to your point, claire. we've discussed this mob-like behavior or nature of trump and his inner circle before we saw it with people like michael cohen, and i want to play this clip from michael cohen when he was describing the way trump asks for things. watch. >> it would be no different if i said that's the nicest-looking tie i've ever seen, isn't it? what are you going to do? are you going to fight with him? no. it's the nicest looking tie i've ever seen. that's how he speaks. he doesn't give you questions. he doesn't give you orders. he speaks in a code, and i understand the code because i've been around him for a decade. >> it is your impression that others who work for him understand the code, as well? >> most people, yes. >> how does jack smith decipher

that code for a jury? because, you know, we have, potentially as we saw in the indictment the evidence that carlos de oliveira says the boss wants the server deleted and how do you know that that code is explicit enough for jurors to know this came from donald trump or this is something donald trump wanted? >> ultimately, and this is all about the jury deciding who's telling the truth, and this all boils down to credibility of the witnesses. clearly, jack smith believes the witness, and i think the witness that is -- has come forward and told all this is, in fact, the i.t. guy that was asked to delete it and said i don't think i can do that. i think that's where they got this. that's where they got the admissions from the property manager that he has been asked to get it deleted by boss, and that is admission and furtherance of the conspiracy and that is hearsay, so it would be an omission.

>> it's a pretty strong case is the only way that the jury can find out if donald trump did not comet in the con spur see that they're simply not believable and that they're lying. >> harry, what do you think about the evidence jack smith might have, and the strength that he's bringing the superseding indictment and a prosecutor would not be opening that layer of scrutiny if the evidence was, i would argue, substantial. >> if it weren't. 100%. first, i want to be clear, to claire's point, when you say surveillance tapes, once the government has said we want surveillance tapes you might as well be flushing cocaine or guns. these are now evidence of a crime, the united states wants them. to credibility, look, what's the

possibility of them to lie and these are flunkies that had conversations with trump. to your point, remember, there's a cost here. it possibly will engender greater delay. smith is aware of that and here's what i think happened. i think he went to de oliveira as he did, and said look, i've got you lying to the fbi three different ways and if you don't cooperate we're going to bring obstruction charges. i've got those on you, too, and de oliveira said in the first instance no and it's just his prosecutorial style and creedo, i would have done the same thing. i told you i would do it and you didn't cooperate, here you go. see you in court, and so part of what's happening is him following through with hard no negotiations which still may bear fruit, but yes, without a doubt. you can read the indictment and they have them there to write and there's no other possible explanation for anything that happened. >> to your point, he wouldn't have done it knowing how much the cost of delay is and the

fact that he probably anticipated some of these tactics early on. >> betry swann, claire, harry, stek around. we will talk to you throughout the hour and what's in the classify documents case, and details as you just heard was jaw dropping and just what jack smith and his team about how vulnerable america's seekets may have been as they moved freely from florida and new jersey. plus new questions that doj prosecutors are raising in millions of legal fees that donald trump is paying out to his witnesses. there are multiple indictments -- we'll head for george to be coming into effort fos overturn the presidential election and all those more when "deadline white house" continues

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so within the special counsel's new superseding indictment, is this additional charge for the ex-president's willful retention of national defense information at mar-a-lago? but it's also confirmation about his latest tale that he has been spinning, and that he was, in fact, waving around sensitive war plans concerning iran at his bedminster golf club in july of 2021 and it was captured in this audio. listen. >> well, with milley, let me see that. i'll show you an example. he said that i wanted to attack

iran. isn't it amazing? i have a big pile of papers -- this thing -- >> these were the papers. this was done by the military, and given to me. i think we can probably, right? >> i don't know. we'll have to see. we'll have to try to -- >> declassify, right? >> see, as president i could have declassified it. now i can't, but this is classified. >> yeah. now we have a problem. >> isn't that interesting? it's so cool. >> so the superseding indictment confirms that this new count, count 32 is, in fact, quote, the document that trump possessed and showed on july 21st, 2021 and files it under presentation concerning military activity in a foreign country. let's bring in former cia director now and msnbc senior security analyst brennan. i want to continue with this indictment for a moment because they elaborate for a moment between january 2021 and august

of 2022, the mar-a-lago club hosted more than 150 social, vents that included weddings, movie premieres and fund raisers and all of them drawing tens of thousands of guests. what is your reaction to this confirmed recklessness with our national security and now possible accountability? >> well, ayman, it confirms that donald trump divulged to unauthorized individuals some of the most sensitive information within the u.s. government which is military plans in the event of some type of engagement overseas and we had that one incident in bedminster new jersey, but given the amount of individuals that passed through mar-a-lago and the number of individuals that he dealt with, you have to wonder who else he might have talked to including foreigners who had visited him and so it really does just underscore the recklessness as you point out of donald trump and what really is amazing that that recklessness and the u.s. military relies on the element

of surprise in order to be effective in terms of its military operations and also relies on the element of supplies to keep its personnel safe and by divulging his information he has put the lives of u.s. personnel at risk. it is so puzzling whyo many individuals within trump's maga base who have children or spouses or siblings in the u.s. military would be dismissive of his recklessness which puts their loved ones at risk and that's what i think incredibly important that this indictment proceed focusing on his recklessness in terms of divulging this information that is so critical of our national security and to the safety and welfare of u.s. military personnel. >> how do you begin, certainly from the position that you had, how do you begin to assess the damage. we can confirm there was travel at some point between florida and bedminster. we don't know who transported that document. we don't know who has seen that document.

we don't know if somebody copied that document and as former counter intelligence peter strzok said during these 150 social events at mar-a-lago there's plenty of photo evidence that the door to the basement area was frequently open and unattended during those events. how do you begin as a former national security official begin to assess the damage that this document had been floating around for months without anyone knowing where it was? >> it's exceptionally difficult task and possibly impossible one because there are so many documents involved and so many sensitive programs that rely on so many sensitive technical collection systems and human sources abroad and if that information has been exposed and has been compromised we don't know the extent of the damage because there's no way to determine exactly who might have access to that information and what information donald trump

might have shared with others. i know my former colleagues are doing well level best based on those documents based on what were relied upon and to see if there were any other indications that might have been compromised. they might have to suspend those activities and put those sources and technical sources on ice, but it is quite a dilemma for the intelligence community to try to understand the scope, the extent and the gravity of the damage that has been done. >> how do you envision this ending, this saga of the national security lapse because of donald trump. jack smith waited to add this charge even though he's had this iran document and we've known about it and this could significantly add to trump's criminal exposure and how do you envision this particular situation ending? >> what i find most horrifying is donald trump is the leading republican candidate for president. it is clear that anybody who did this could not have achieved any type of security clearance, but he has the potential to be back

in the white house and the oval office with access to the most sensitive secrets and the most sensitive national security information that our country has, and so i know that our intelligence community and our law enforcement community and others are trying their best to try to understand the, tent of the damage that has been done, but what i worry about is that somebody as reckless, as careless and irresponsible as donald trump continues to lead the republican pac in terms of the presidential election. that to me is what's most concerning and most worrisome about our country's national security in the future. >> harry, how does jack smith prosecute a case of this magnitude with very sensitive, classified information? does the content of that document even matter to the jurors, to the courtroom or is it about the fact that he just had it and was reckless with it? >> so charge is simply that he had it under the indictment, it's defined in a certain way and it's not based on the content. however, this is -- remember i was talking about bits and pieces and the one big chunk.

the one big chunk, the defense will have a right to say we really need this part of it to give context to the jury, maybe even some other information, as well and there have been cases in the past when the doj has actually folded its hand rather than go forward. it's a technique that people will do in classified documents. that's on judge -- >> they'll say, hey, this is not a big document. they want this out in the public so they can basically tell everyone it's not as sensitive. >> this one in particular, were it not for what director brennan was saying it would be almost comical and it so shows that trump wakes up lying and lies all day. he's pretends he has it and then it's in the indictment and then oh, no, no, no. i didn't have it, and now it turns out that he really did, and the content is very sensitive, but the charge doesn't depend on the content and that's why there are 32 there. this one, i think, was added

because it has such probative value because of the lies he tells to brett bayer and in the public sphere. i can lose these arguments to the judge and i'll still have enough to really go after him because again, it's not the content that matters. it's the fact of its classification. >> director brennan, thank you so much for your time. always a pleasure, sir. thank you. coming up, it is no surprise that trump's legal troubles are costing a lot of money, but as those bills stack up, not just for himself, but for his employees, now turned witnesses, there is new reporting signaling prosecutors are looking at potential conflicts of interest in those payments. we'll get into that next. paymes we'll get into that next i switc. dovato is a complete hiv treatment for some adults. no other complete hiv pill uses fewer medicines to help keep you undetectable than dovato. detect this:

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as the disgraced ex-president donald trump faces 40 criminal counts in connection to the mishandling of classified do you means and another looming indictment from special counsel jack smith, of course, along with the state charges in new york and even potentially future state charges in fulton county, georgia, you might be wondering how is trump paying for all those legal fees? now a new report from "the washington post" says trump's pac is footing the bill. trump's political group spent $40 million on legal costs in the first half of 2023 to defend trump, his advisers and others according to people familiar

with the matter. prosecutors have raised pointed questions about who is paying for their lawyers and why. people familiar with the questions said, trump advisers told "the washington post" that the pac who raises most of its money from small-dollar contributions by trump supporters across the country, is actually footing the legal bills for almost anyone drawn into the investigations who requests help from the former president and his advisers. we are back with former senator claire mccaskill and harry littman. this kind of spending is officially legal, but the question is more about the ethics of it and it's an unprecedented number to spend $40 million out of a political action committee. what concerns you most about what's at play here? >> well, there's a lot about this that stinks, even if it might be technically legal.

what really stinks is how he's treating his donors that he is coming to them and saying help me re-elect me, help me be president again, help me be your leader and in reality he's milking them. many of them who are not wealthy people, giving $10, $15 to pay for lawyers. high-brow, expensive lawyers for a huge group of people that were silly enough to go to work with him without an employment rider that provided lawyers because anyone who works for donald trump eventually needs a lawyer. >> harry, let me read for you from "the washington post" part of the arrangement that during the course of their investigation, prosecutors have repeatedly asked witnesses about how and why entities have paid for witnesses to get lawyers. they have asked whether legal

representation was designed to shield trump from criminal exposure and people familiar with those exchanges. prosecutors have asked to see legal agreements of legal retainers according to subpoenas reviewed by the post. what kind of charges do you think prosecutors are considering connected to this exposure? >> well, remember, smith in the first instance is actually looking at the establishment of this pac which may be bogus in and of itself because -- and many a wire fraud under federal law because trump said it's because the election was stolen, but even leaving that, side, so claire's right. you can do this legally, but it starts to really stink. it's become a full employment act for one lawyer in particular and one very worrisome fact is if are both nauta and de oliveira it seems clear that they should be cooperating and

so one's concern is just that their lawyers which are duty-bound to do aren't representing the interests of their clients rather than trump himself and that would be both an ethical problem and potentially depending on how it's done, a crime. it's not -- technically it could be kosher, but it sure seems like a lot of pork. [ laughter ] >> to michael cohen's point, claire, he doesn't have to ask you. he knows if he's offering up the services and the pac is willing to cover your bill he's probably expecting loyalty and silence in return. >> we can all remember real-life examples of where people have been paid by the lawyers. the lawyers have been paid for by someone else. we had it in the fox dominion suit where one of the witnesses was told by the lawyers, try to forget everything, and of course, they were looking after fox. they weren't looking after the client.

we had the same thing with cassidy hutchinson in the j-6 testimony. she had been represented by lawyers and she got her own lawyer and all of a sudden realized i need to speak out. i need to talk about what i saw and what i witnessed. this was about whether or not they're using lawyers to shut people up or whether they're legitimately getting their lawyers to help them through legal problems and that will be a difficult thing for the pros courts to sort out. >> please, go ahead. >> remember here, it's in the indictment, will de oliveira be loyal, and they get the word back and that day donald trump, former president of the united states, calls him up and says i'm going to give you a lawyer. i'll pay for your lawyer. all in all, you know, that's unsavory, let's put it that way. >> claire brought up the point about cassidy hutchinson's closed-door testimony, and i want to hone in on that for a

moment, because she accepted the help of former trump white house to fail to recall, and the less you remember, hutchinson recalled pass an tino remembers telling him her especially if you put together timeliness we have to give those over to the committee. do we have any reason to believe that that is not being suggested to walt nauta and charles de oliveira? >> any reason? you know, it's the -- it's the -- it's the -- >> modus operandi. >> it's what the lawyer call the proof of character, but you're right, passantino, i think his license is in real jeopardy and she went in and gave testimony as he told her to and she realized i'm in big trouble, i've lied here and everything unraveled after that and look at what happened in the january 6th committee as a result. so it's of concern and as claire said it's a hard thing to really

get at because it's the attorney-client relationship. >> and i think correct me if i'm wrong, claire. it's part of the reason why donald trump is not going out saying look, i'm the political martyr for you. i need your money. give me your money because i am the one going to bat for you. if it's not me they're going to come after you. >> hey, donald trump is maybe a one or two-trick pony. it is -- i am a victim. i am a martyr, and by the way, i'm going to lie and you're going to believe me. >> and the grist continues. no one is going anywhere. up next, how the growing criminal charges against the 2024 gop front-runner are being received by his political rivals. stay with us. y his political rivals stay with us prescribed h-i-v treatment, biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in many people whether you're 18 or 80. with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to undetectable—and stay there

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150 years in the making. there's a story in every piece of land. run with us and start telling yours. these guys were acting like the -- the corleones with no experience. i mean, the day after a grand jury subpoena is served which includes the surveillance tapes they go down to mar-a-lago and walt nauta appears to be the fredo of this family. they send him to go down there, and they send him to go and delete it. this is bad stuff. i want voters to listen to this. it is most likely that by time we get on the debate stage on august 23rd the front-runner will be out on bail in four different jurisdictions,

florida, washington, georgia and new york. >> so that was former new jersey governor chris christie trying to make his case to republican voters about just how dire things will be for them if the godfather everyting, remains their nominee and despite the potential for him to be out on bail for jurisdictions by the time of the gop debate at the end of august who are and trump is leading ron desantis and the closest runner-up by a whopping 37 points and his grip on the gop remains incredibly strong. check this out. according to that poll, 22% of people who believe trump committed serious federal crimes would still be support him for the nomination. it is a headscratcher. let's bring in editor-at-large

for the bull work, charlie sykes, claire and harry are still with us. charlie, i mean, let's just start with the basic here. what does it say about the -- republicans who believe that trump still deserves their support. >> well, this is shocking, but it's not surprising because this is what you would expect from a call and what you would expect from a political party where so many of the leaders refused to actually tell the base exactly what is at stake to hold donald trump accountable for his lawbreaking. i mean, after years and years and years of rationalization, of enabling various tortured defenses of donald trump's behavior, it's not surprising that you would see the consequences of this alternative

reality. you have more than 70% who think he's done nothing wrong and you have the 20% that still think that he should be returned to the oval office. this is alarming and this is what a post-democratic political cult would look like, and ron desantis is not going to break donald trump's hold if he's not willing to take it to donald trump and speak truth to power in this particular case and he's apparently unable or unwilling to do that. >> charlie, let me follow up and ask you. there are the asa hutchinson and the will herd and chris christies that are trying to say that now? is it too little too late because they themselves did not vote to impeach donald trump. chris christie worked for donald trump, asa hutchinson has been critical, but not as nationally recognized, if you will, or not as loud of a voice as some of these others. how do you explain how they

themselves do not have any traction with the message? >> everything you just said is true and these are all legitimate concerns, but i do think that it's important to say that -- that it is crucial that they are doing what they are doing. >> right. they are not getting any traction. >> right. but they are saying what needs to be said and so, you know, with all due respect to those of us on msnbc, are we breaking through the republican base, but chris christie might. will hurd said what is willing to be said and he's willing to go to the lion's den and asa hutchinson is willing to do this, as well and none of them are going to win the republican nomination and none of them will be president and there is baggage. hopefully they will be on the stage or at least chris christie will be on that debate stage and he will say things about donald trump that republican voters need to hear. whether it makes a difference, we don't know. history would suggest that it won't, but it is very important

that the voice come from within the house, from within the room at this point. >> claire, harry, stick around and we'll get your thoughts on this just after a quick break, as well. charlie, don't go anywhere. wel. charlie, don't go anywhere n. sww and they'll give you nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv, on them. (hero fan) this plan is amazing! (josh allen) another amazing plan, backing away from here very slowly. (fan #1) that was josh allen. (fan #2) mmhm. (vo) for a limited time get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. a $449 value. plus, get a free samsung galaxy s23. only on verizon. i'm jayson. i'm living with hiv and i'm on cabenuva. it helps keep me undetectable. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. cabenuva is two injections, given by my healthcare provider, every other month. it's really nice not to have to rush home and take a daily hiv pill. don't receive cabenuva if you're allergic

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for too long, big oil companies have bought off politicians so they can get away with ripping us off. that's changing now. joe biden passed a plan to jumpstart clean energy production in america. it's creating good jobs that can't be outsourced and will lower energy costs. $1800. that's how much a new report says the inflation reduction act could save just the average american family on energy costs. [narrator] learn how the inflation reduction act will save you money. you said trump should have done more on january 6th. like what? >> well, look, i think it's been well documented, kind of his conduct when it first started, how he sat there, could have obviously leaned in harder.

i think even his own kids were texting saying he needs to do more, he needs to do more. is that criminal, though? i mean, that's the thing when you talk about a grand jury and a potential criminal indictment. >> claire, for every will hurd, asa hutchinson you've got a ron desantis, a lindsey graham, a kevin mccarthy, a mitch mcconnell who are basically apologizing for donald trump. ron desantis, who's running against him, can't even get himself to be critical of how the president -- former president reacted on january 6th when the government was under attack. >> hey, i've got one clear message for ron desantis. he's been at this a while. he's raised a bunch of money. he's hired all these experienced people. he is not going to get there by being trump's mini me. period. this poll shows it very clear. him being like oh, yeah, well, trump's really not bad. as charlie said, this is not going to work.

37% of the republican electorate is not moving off trump. 25% of them aren't going to be for trump. that leaves another chunk of people that are up for grabs. and the only way you're going to get those people is by attacking the guy that is winning the race. it is politics 101. nikki haley, by the way, take the same memo. >> right. >> all the others. take the same memo. tim scott. they're all dancing around trying to pretend that donald trump is not the problem. and what they're doing is they're electing donald trump. >> i wonder if that's because they're vying for the vice presidency. i mean, donald trump tweeted as much out on his social media platform, basically saying let them debate, let them go after each other, right there, "let them debate so i can see who i might consider for vice president." what do you think, claire? is that what this is? they don't want to go too hard after trump because they're still applying for a job? >> isn't that depressing? isn't that depressing?

i mean, think about that. they have watched this man up close, especially people like nikki haley and tim scott. they know what a disaster he was as president. and are they really stepping lightly because they want to be his number two? have they talked to mike pence? how'd that work out for mike pence? mike pence is barely registering in the polls. and he was number two. i would not recommend number two around donald trump unless you have a lot of lawyers on standby. >> yeah, i agree with you on that. harry, really quickly, you're saying there's smog else more at play here which is it's not just politics. you've got to speak up for the constitution in this case. >> that's exactly right. it's not just politics 101. it's constitutional culture 101. i agree with everything charlie said and the most sobering word he used, post-democratic. we're watching a constitutional trainwreck in real time, and we're really in the territory of a republic if you can keep it, as lincoln famously said. >> i have not seen anyone debase his republican opponents the way that i've seen donald trump do it, and they still keep coming back for more. harry litman, thank you so much. claire mccaskill, thank you as

well. charlie, please stick around. i'm going to talk to you a little later on in this hour. up next for us, the fulton county, georgia d.a. signaling her team is ready to go. what that means in yet another possible indictment for the ex-president. a very short break. "deadline: white house" returns in just a moment. rns in just a moment

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i've made a commitment to the american people, but most importantly the citizens of fulton county that we were going to be making some big decisions regarding the election investigation and that i would do that before september the 1st of 2023. and i'm going to hold true to that commitment. the work is accomplished. we've been working for 2 1/2

years. we're ready to go. hi again, everyone. it is 5:00 in new york. i'm ayman mule hedin in for nicolle wallace. ready to go. the latest and strongest indication yet from fulton county district attorney fani willis that the indictment of the ex-president for his role in trying to overturn georgia's 2020 presidential election results is likely and likely soon. tomorrow is august 1st, meaning we will hear willis's charging decisions within the month since she has signaled. you just heard her repeat it this weekend, that her decision will come before september 1st. this highly anticipated announcement from willis will mark the end of an over two years long investigation into the former president's actions that involved a grand jury and ensnared many of trump's allies including mark meadows and rudy giuliani and it be the third or even fourth indictment this year for the current gop front-runner. as we also await an announcement from special counsel jack smith on his probe into election

interference as well. willis's stated deadline approaching as trump's team suffered another legal defeat today. the judge overseeing the fulton county grand jury, superior court judge robert mcburney, rejecting attempts by trump's lawyers to disqualify willis and quash the special grand jury's report. from his nine-page ruling, "they are insufficient because while being the subject or even target of a highly publicized criminal investigation is likely an unwelcome and unpleasant experience no court ever has held that the status alone provides a basis for the courts to interfere with or halt the investigation." as nbc news reports, the ruling is the second against trump on the issue in two weeks. the georgia supreme court denied a similar request from trump on july 17th. a third petition to the fulton county superior court is pending with a hearing scheduled for august 10th. in his monday ruling mcburney

suggested his ruling should make the third action moot. willis has made clear her understanding of the monumental task before her, potentially criminally indicting a former president. in a may letter she asked judges to refrain from scheduling trials or in-person hearings between july 31st and august 18th and said she would have 70% of her staff work remotely during that period. and recently, orange barricades were set up outside the fulton county courthouse. this weekend willis acknowledged the heightened security precautions. >> sometimes when people are unhappy they act in a way that could create harm. i'm not willing to put my employees in harm's way. i'm not willing to put any of the employees or the constituents that come to the courthouse in harm's way. and so i think that the sheriff is doing something smart and making sure that the courthouse stays safe. >> joining us now political columnist for the "atlanta journal-constitution" patricia murphy. also with us former justice department prosecutor and senior

member of robert mueller's special counsel investigation andrew weissmann. and editor at large for the bulwark, charlie sykes is back with us. patricia, i'll start with you. you've been keeping up with all of the updates on this case. what do you make of d.a. willis's comments this weekend, specifically the "ready to go" remark? and when are you expecting to hear an announcement from her office? >> yeah, so the d.a.'s comments over the weekend that the work has been accomplished and she's ready to go, they've been working for 2 1/2 years, this is very, very consistent with what we've been hearing from miss willis for more than two years. i speak with her about two years ago about this kind of looming suspicion of donald trump, and she said i'm going to take my time, i'm going to go through the facts, if i can go through each fact, fact a, fact b, fact c, if it leads to an indictment that's where i'm going to go. she said it doesn't matter if you're a homeless person on the streets or somebody who's the former president of the united states, if you commit a crime in

her county she will bring an indictment if she thinks she can close the case. we've heard obviously from special grand jurors earlier that they expected to bring indictments. we've heard that there won't be any surprises. so we do expect something from the d.a. obviously, the tension in atlanta is getting really high. those staffers now have been told to work remotely. they're down to about 70% staff, as your package said. so we are anticipating anything, really any day now. we know it could be over the next couple of weeks. special grand juries meet in two panels during the week. all eyes are certainly on the fulton county courthouse and the d.a. will come out immediately after those are announced, when they're announced, and explain the decision whether she decided to go forward or not. >> let me ask you about that tension for a moment. when it comes to the security concerns. you have new reporting about a warning that d.a. willis sent to county leaders. and i just want to read a little bit from that. willis warned a group of county

leaders over the weekend to "stay alert and make decisions that keep your staff safe." in the same group e-mail obtained by the ajc willis forwarded an obscene message she had recently received as an example of the threats her office has gotten since opening an investigation into possible election interference back in 2020. the message called willis a corrupt racial expletive and threatened "you are going to fail, you jim crow democrat" expletive. it's obviously reaching a fever pitch. we have seen the consequences of words in the past turn over to violence. tell us about the threats and vitriol that willis and her team have been facing. donald trump just over the weekend referred to her as a racist d.a. and it's not the first time he has gone after her in this vulgar, offensive manner. >> yeah. that's exactly right. she's getting those threats and racial epithets from the top to the bottom, from the former president all the way down to her e-mail inbox, to her

voicemail. we know that she has had personal protection for quite some time now. and she sent this e-mail that she had gotten, she forwarded it to the fulton county commission as well as their staff and other members of the solicitor general's office because it's all one large complex in downtown atlanta. it's not just the fulton county courthouse it's also where the fulton county commission meets, aund roh the corner is city hall, around the conner from that is the state capitol. so it's all in this government complex, a very tight perimeter. and once those orange barricades went up in particular and once she did set a time frame starting today through the end of the month when she'd be coming down with a decision the tensions have become very real. she sent this e-mail to let commissioners know that it's a really serious situation. they have multiple murder trials going on in that complex. they have multiple very high-profile trials just about all the time. but she's signaling that this is something really different, that this is going to be a level of scrutiny, of intensity and of

potential and hopefully not but potential violence that she wants everybody to take very seriously down there for themselves as well as their staff and anybody in the area as well. >> charlie, speak to this moment that we find ourselves in. i mean, this collision between the rule of law and the threat of political violence which we in this country are not immune to. we've seen it time and time again. but we're -- as patricia was saying, we're seeing this on a whole new level because of what happened in the elections of 2020 and what we have now with the former president, this so-called, you know, party of law, republicans who are not doing enough to quell the anger or the vitriol that is directed to law officials in this country, law enforcement officials in this country. >> well, i'm not hearing much effort to quell this at all. in fact, if anything you see the escalation of the violence. and after january 6th we're in longer talking just theoretically about the possibility that the former president might incite violence.

and the fact that he keeps coming back to fani willis's race is a real tell. this is not a dog whistle. this is very much part of trump's attempt to freeze and to target this particular d.a. and he will make an issue of her race. he brings it up every single time. and i think that if you take donald trump's rhetoric seriously, as millions of americans do, you see that the threat is quite real. i know there are some people who think maybe we should just ignore donald trump. i think that's a huge mistake. because it does not take a huge number of people to act on the kind of rhetoric that they're hearing from their leader. and i think that this is a very dangerous moment. think about the next week, the next 14 days. you may have indictments coming out of atlanta, then followed by or preceded by indictments from the special counsel. so everything is going to reach a boiling point frankly in the

middle of the summer of 2023. it's a very legitimate concern and it is a completely unprecedented moment in american politics. >> speak to that moment for us, andrew. when willis does bring forward her charges, what are you expecting? and more importantly, the possibility that you may have two charges from jack smith and fani willis more or less about the same effort, the effort to overturn -- or the same crime i should say, which is the effort to overturn the 2020 election in some capacity. >> sure. well, i think in short order that is exactly what we're going to see with a larger case brought by jack smith and a subset of that case brought by fani willis. and so you will end up with four criminal cases against the former president and leading candidate for the presidency of the united states, a remarkable situation for our history. i think that for the fan wi

willis case i'm going to be particularly interested in the judge who is drawn and what that judge is going to do with respect to the trial date and any other defendants. and the same thing for jack smith. what judge is assigned to the case in d.c. and any other defendants. i think those are the key open issues. and i think sort of tying in charlie's point, it is going to be very interesting to see what the different sets of prosecutors do with respect to treating donald trump the way they would any other defendant who is engaging in this kind of conduct while on bail. just remember, he is on bail in two criminal cases and in short order may be on bail in four criminal cases. anyone who engaged in this kind of conduct in my experience would be brought in in no short order in front of the judge to

at the very least get a tongue-lashing about the rules of the road and a warning about continuing this kind of behavior to inflame a jury, to incite violence. and there are judges certainly in d.c., where the january 6th indictment if it's brought will be, who are not going to tolerate this kind of behavior. nor should they. donald trump should be treated like everyone else, and that means that what he says at this point is not the same thing that anyone could say if they weren't under indictment. >> speak to us about the judge in atlanta who today -- judge mcburney who today ruled against trump's efforts to dismiss the case before the charges -- or charges are even brought, saying they don't have standing to mount a challenge in this preindictment phase. the significance of that, if you can, andrew, and more importantly is this a strategy

that trump will employ or deploy in every legal proceeding, which is delay and try to buy more time? and, you know, challenge basically every single step along the way. >> sure. well, first on the challenge along the way, i mean, just to be clear, that's what every defendant does. almost every defendant does not want to go to trial. why? because their day in court could -- will just be one day closer to their actual going to jail. so that's not an unusual strategy. it is important of course for the government to be on top of this to make sure that there isn't undue delay because of it. i think that the decision is so obviously right. what he basically said is these are the kinds of motions you bring after you're indicted, you have no standing at this point. and he notably cited the 11th circuit decision reversing judge cannon, saying that you're no different than any other defendant. you have no greater rights. you have no greater standing

than any other defendant. i thought it was really heartening that you have judges at these different levels in different courts saying that, which is you're not going to be treated worse but you're not going to be treated better because of your former government position. and that meant that this is an entirely frivolous motion at this stage. and it will remain to be seen whether the judge who's having a hearing on august 10th goes forward because as you noted, ayman, it is a largely moot decision. you could imagine the judge going forward simply to issue a decision that says yes, i agree with what mcburney did, there's no standing at this point. but it is a moot point at this juncture. >> patricia, the efforts to overturn the 2020 election span several states at different levels. but georgia carries a special significance i think in the collective psyche of this country because of an infamous recording where we actually hear donald trump in his own words

calling the secretary of state, brad raffensperger, and telling him to find him votes. let's play a clip. watch. >> i'm notifying you that you're letting it happen. so look. all i want to do is this. i just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state. and flipping the state is a great testament to our country. a lot of people think it wasn't a mistake. it was much more criminal than that. >> and as i mentioned, there are several states that are the subject of multiple investigations, but georgia is unique because of that but also the broader evidence that has been gathered by fani willis, or what she has been gathering. talk to us a little about how unique georgia is in this broader effort. >> well, georgia is crucial in this effort. it was a place that we saw donald trump and his associates

again and again and again from election night challenging the results, asking for recounts, demanding hand recounts. rudy giuliani came before a state senate and made multiple statements that he now admits were false, claiming that all kinds of fraud had happened in fulton county that did not happen, and multiple recounts showed that the legitimate -- that the election was legitimate and that all of the statements were not true. these efforts to delay this trial remind me a whole lot of the efforts to delay the election results here in georgia, asking again and again, filing more and more court cases to demand that this be recounted, redone, and insisting over and over. and still to this day that the election was stolen. so it continues to animate our politics. it continues to animate state and local politics and national politics of course. and we'll know really soon whether or not there were criminal indictments coming down. but this has been -- the 2020

election in georgia has truly never ended. we have never gotten a break from the results and then donald trump's insistence, false insistence and efforts to overturn that election, which he claims were rigged and which were not. it has never stopped here in georgia, and if there is an indictment that comes down this will just be the next chapter in that story. and fani willis told me that she looked to see where brad raffensperger lives. the minute she heard that phone call -- he lives in fulton county, north fulton county. that meant that that was immediately within her jurisdiction because he took that call from him. other events in the state now look like they also in fulton county may have been criminal as well. we'll see very soon whether that was criminal conduct and whether she believes that and whether she thinks she can get a conviction. she told me she wouldn't bring an indictment unless she thought she could get a conviction. and we'll know very soon what the next chapter of the story looks like here in georgia. >> it is such an important point

the way you framed it, that this election is not over for the people of georgia. andrew, i do have to ask you really quickly about a point you brought up earlier, which is this comment from d.a. fani willis that any notion she was coordinating with the special counsel jack smith, she kind of dismissed that, saying she doesn't know what jack smith is doing, doesn't know -- he doesn't know what i'm doing, "in all honesty if jack smith was standing next to me i'm not sure i would know who he was." talk to us a little about that. are you surprised by the fact that even though they are looking at a similar crime in nature, this attempt to overturn the election there is not a coordination, there is not a communication between the two offices? if not now, will there be at some point a convergence of interests and dialogue? >> i am surprised if that reporting is correct. and the reason is that because the subject matter of the two cases overlap you do need to coordinate on witnesses. in other words, you're going to

be talking to the same witnesses. you want to know what they have said. have they said anything inconsistent? you also need to coordinate because you need to know about the discovery. each -- the federal government and the state have obligations to turn over discovery to the defense. well, the federal government's going to be interested in having that state discovery and vice versa. so just at that basic level there needs to be coordination. it doesn't mean that you have to -- they all have to be doing everything lock-step. they don't have to coordinate on exactly when they're going to indict. but there does need to be a line of communication on those kinds of things. let me give you one other example. if you are interviewing somebody who is a victim, who speaking of your concerns how they were treated, ruby freeman, for example, somebody like that, you may not want them to have to tell their story over and over again to different investigators at the federal and state level. so you'd want to just for the

sake of the witnesses coordinate so you could lessen the burden on them in terms of reliving that experience. so i do think if they haven't coordinated so far there will be a certain amount of coordination that does have to happen. >> i am sure we'll find out in the next couple days and weeks. patricia murphy, andrew weissmann, thank you both. greatly appreciate it. charlie, please stick around. just a quick programming note, andrew's podcast "prosecuting donald trump" will have a new episode out tonight after today's show ends. his guest is judge michael luttig, the judge who advised pence about the powers he did and did not have before january 6th. you do not want to miss it. when we return, echoes of 2019 and trump's first impeachment this weekend as the ex-president demands that republicans withhold aid to ukraine over investigations into the biden family, believe it or not. plus, supreme court justice samuel alito goes back to the pages of the "wall street journal," this time making a bold claim that congress has no

right to oversee the supreme court. we're going to talk about that. and later in the program nbc news spoke to dozens of people who served in trump's cabinet. guess what? just four of them say he should be re-elected. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. " continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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golo isn't like every other program out there, and i'm living proof of it. (announcer) change your life at golo.com. that's golo.com. in what would be a new low except for the fact that we've actually been here before, the disgraced ex-president is now publicly pressuring other republicans to withhold military aid from ukraine. here is what he said at a rally over the weekend. >> the u.s. congress should refuse to authorize a single additional payment of our

depleted stockpiles. but the weapon stockpiles to ukraine until the fbi, doj and irs hand over every scrap of evidence they have on the biden crime family's corrupt business dealings. in addition, congress should immediately vote to block joe biden's recent call-up of reserve forces. we're sending now troops over to europe to fight. >> it is not lost on us that this comes almost exactly four years since trump's infamous phone call pressuring ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy and that he appears to have learned absolutely nothing from that first impeachment. it also speaks volumes about the state of the republican party, that this guy is their front-runner for 2024. and he is threatening to unseat republicans if they do not fall in line. joining me here at the table "new york times" editorial board member gay and founder of iraq and afghanistan veterans of america and host of the independent americans podcast paul rykoff.

charlie is also still with us. so paul, let me start with you. this is just bonkers. he is again saying the quiet part out loud and doing basically what he did the first time around. leveraging our national security, our foreign policy all to his own political advantage and arguably to that of vladimir putin. >> well, he's holding our national security hostage. this is the tommy tuberville tactic which has become popular in washington the last few weeks and just cost alabama the space command. president obama made the decision that space command is not going to alabama, it's going to colorado in part because of tommy tuberville's antics, because of the atmosphere in alabama and the restrictions on abortion rights. how are you going to recruit in alabama for people to join space command right now? that's the strategy tommy tuberville put forward, holding national security hoft ng. this is good for the base, it's good for trump's base it gets them riled up but it's bad for our national security it's bad for our troops it's bad for nato and ultimately i think it's bad

for his politics with independent americans. independents aren't buying this. overwhelmingly americans support support for ukraine, independents especially and i think in the ebbed it's going to cost him those independents down the stretch. >> charlie, speak to that for a moment. how is this going to play out? we know time and time again that republicans are all too willing to do trump's bidding and as paul just mentioned it is now going into national security. again, another topic that republicans always try to project themselves as the stronger party on, the national security is one thing they'll never compromise on and yet here they are doing donald trump's bidding. >> well, not so far. so far they have not lined up in sort of the anti-putin wing of the party or the pro-putin wing of the party. but there's no question donald trump is not just echoing his attempt to extort volodymyr zelenskyy, he is repeating it. he is essentially saying look, if you do not give me all of my -- the dirt on my political opponent i am going to support cutting off ukraine, which is in

a life and death struggle against russia. this is real world consequences. as paul pointed out here. and this from a party that has really wrapped itself around national security. so there is a real vulnerability. you do wonder at one point, you have veterans and their families and people in the military who look at what donald trump is saying and tommy tuberville is saying and say wait, this is putting our lives at risk, this is putting our country's security at risk. and i do think that there is a strong faction of republicans who may not speak out against donald trump in any other context who are going to look at this and go, okay, are we really going to sacrifice the freedom and the lives of ukrainians for your selfish political agenda? are you really going to put us through this again? and that's a decision they're going to have to make over the next few months. >> mara, what do you think of this? i mean, republicans obviously -- you have people like susan collins, you know, senator braun

who at the time in 2019, excuse me, said donald trump has learned his lesson after that first impeachment. and now here he is in a campaign event saying as clear as day he wants congress to effectively work against our national security interests in order to beat his political opponent. >> what i think is that this is a vivid demonstration of the importance of holding donald trump accountable in court if necessary and if the law demands it. i think there has been some conversation and some concern along the lines of whether prosecuting donald trump for any crimes he may have committed would further divide the country or would really be worth it. you know, while i understand those concerns, when you have a former president who may have committed crimes and also has been extremely reckless with american lives, with ukrainian lives, the lives of our allies

and the democracy of the nation is at risk, you really need to hold him accountable. if you don't hold him accountable, he will continue to become i believe more and more reckless. and i also just have to say that this is brazen behavior. i mean, not only was he investigated over interference in the election, over foreign interference in the election, and of course we know that famous phone call that took place between he and the ukrainian president, was already extremely inappropriate. you know, now you have a president who is essentially asking for foreign intervention in our elections. there used to be a time where there was a sense that american elections were sacred, that we were all americans even if there are republicans, there are democrats, there are independents. but now it's donald trump not just over party, over everything. >> well, if you're also a

candidate who's asking a foreign country to find 10,000 e-mails of your political opponent and to leak them so you can weaponize them, i guess nothing should surprise us anymore. >> exactly. >> mara, paul, please stick around. charlie, it's always great to see you, m i friend. thank you so much for joining us this afternoon. coming up, outrage after justice samuel alito turns to a lawyer with business before the supreme court to tell congress stay out of the supreme court's business. - the company goes to the firstborn, audrey. the model train set is entrusted to todd. mr. marbles will receive recurring deliveries for all of his needs in perpetuity, thanks to autoship from chewy. - i always loved that old man. - what's it say about the summer house? - yeah, the beach house- - the summer residence goes to mr. marbles. (mr. marbles chuckles) - plot twist! - i'm sorry, what? - doesn't make logistical sense. - unbelievable. - pets aren't just pets. they're more. - you got a train set, todd. - [announcer] save more on what they love and never run out with autoship from chewy. (pensive music) (footsteps crunching)

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it is just wrong on the facts to say that congress doesn't have anything to do with the rules guiding the supreme court. in fact, from the very beginning congress has set those rules. it is just more evidence that these justices on the supreme court, these conservative justices just see themselves as politicians. they just see themselves as a second legislative body that has just as much power and right to impose their political will on the country as congress does. >> all right. so that was senator chris murphy on the comments made by supreme court justice samuel alito in an interview published by the "wall street journal" in its op-ed page late last week saying that congress has no role in setting ethical standards for the court. the justice saying, "i know this is a controversial view, but i'm willing to say it. no provision in the constitution gives them the authority to regulate the supreme court. period." alito's latest remarks actually

opens him up to even more questions and scrutiny about supreme court ethics. one of the authors of the "wall street journal" piece last week, david rifkin, he is set to argue a case in front of the supreme court later this fall. let's bring in mark joseph stern, senior writer for slate. mara and paul are still with us. so mark, great to see you again. help us unpack justice alito's claims here, that congress has no role in setting rules for the ethics of the court. you speak to a lot more legal experts than i do. is that true or false? >> it is quite false and an extraordinary claim because in fact article 3 of the constitution expressly grants congress the power to regulate the supreme court and in fact uses the word "regulation," which justice alito claims is totally forbidden. from its start the court has been regulated by congress. congress sets its budget. congress sets the number of seats on the court. it can add or subtract seats. it can choose which cases the court must hear and which cases the court can't hear.

and there's a very strong consensus across legal experts that of course congress can impose an ethical standard on the supreme court just as congress imposes an ethical standard on all of the lower courts that judges must follow. so he's really going way out in front of his skis here by making this sweeping claim that goes against not only the text of the constitution but more than 230 years of tradition. and i think there is a reason why the chief justice has sometimes shown a little bit of frustration with alito over the past year, because this guy keeps going out and making himself look like quite the clown in front of the american people. >> as we mentioned, mark, one of the authors of the "journal," the op-ed in the journal, david rifkin, he actually has business before the court and he's also deeply personally enmeshed in the debate over supreme court ethics. the associated press writes that rifkin represents leonard leo, i think a name a lot of americans are getting more familiar with. this one-time leader of the

conservative legal group the federalist society. in his dealings with senate democrats who want details of leo's dealings with justices. of course leo helped arrange alito's trip to alaska. rifkin in a letter tuesday to leading democrats on the senate judiciary committee said the request was politically motivated and violates leo's constitutional rights. and rivkin also wrote that a congressionally imposed ethics code for the supreme court would falter on constitutional grounds. are we looking at a campaign to stop supreme court reform in its tracks in real time? >> we absolutely are. and we're seeing the justice work hand in hand with at least one attorney, david rivkin, who as you said has a case before the court this coming term that is an attempt to roll back the federal income tax by diminishing the authority of congress under the 16th amendment. that's a really big deal. and so it doesn't look great to

have justice alito palling around with this same attorney in the offices of the "wall street journal." as you said too, alito is good friends with leonard leo, currently co-chair of the federalist society. and rivkin also represents leo in trying to quash the senate judiciary committee's investigation into leo's massive dark money machine. there's a historical parallel here. chief justice hughes in the 1930s when faced with fdr's campaign to expand the supreme court resisted many calls to go out on the offensive like this, to take big swings back at congress and the president and chose instead to show that he was a neutral arbiter, that he could remain impartial, that he could remain the chief justice of the judiciary, the supreme court without interfering in the political branches. here we have the exact opposite. we have alito stepping out, interfering with congress, expressing a strong view against

legislation that's pending before the senate. i would venture to say that this is unprecedented behavior from a sitting justice and that he has taken a pretty shocking step of meddling in the democratic branches. >> can you imagine, mara, for a moment what would happen if you had, you know, justice sotomayor appearing on the op-ed pages of the "new york times" or "wall street journal"? doing two things, one with somebody who has a case in front of her later this fall. and two, in the very same piece with the guy appearing in front of her in a couple months arguing that congress has no oversight. what do you think the outrage would be from republicans? >> well, not only would there be outrage but you wouldn't see it because in the moment, in this moment in american history the far right in the country, which includes several members of the supreme court at this point, is far less interested i believe unfortunately in precedent and in democratic institutions and far more interested in raw power. and i think what's interesting about this op-ed to me is it's straight out of the right-wing

playbook at this point. throw out an extreme idea that is anathema that everything that any american who has been to a high school social studies class would recognize as the importance of the balance and checks of power, and then get americans used to it so by the time you've decided that congress, despite section 3 of the constitution, has absolutely no role in altering or regulating the court, then americans will accept that. as though it was true all along. and i can't help but feel that this is especially interesting coming at a time when i think progressives have been talking about expanding the court because the alternative is a generation really or more of right-wing jurisprudence at the court. i also just have to say it's so out of touch because just because somebody writes something in the "wall street journal" op-ed page isn't going to make it more acceptable to

the millions of americans who disagree with the supreme court as it is right now on a number of issues like abortion rights. americans aren't going to all of a sudden say oh, well, it was written in the "wall street journal" op-ed section? >> must be legit. >> i guess it's as good as law. >> to mara's point, americans are waking up with this idea that maybe for the last several years they have not been paying as much attention to the court and now you have a supreme court justice that is basically saying to the public you have no oversight over what this court does. that is a scary moment for our democracy. just the idea that a justice of the supreme court thinks there is no congressional oversight to that institution. >> yeah, the norms are gone. there is a falling out of integrity. there's a loss of honor. i mean, we just talked about how the republican party, the party of john mccain, is now attacking the military. ron desantis is running on

attacking the military. that's upside down world. and now you've got a supreme court justice arguing there shouldn't be ethics regulations. like that's how low we've come. so everything has become politicized. everyone has become a political actor. and every institution in our country has been compromised. from the department of defense to the supreme court. and this is why america doesn't trust anything anymore. they don't trust political leaders. they don't trust institutions. and that's the real loss for all of us, is this loss in the trust and the integrity of our democracy. >> yeah, and if we don't restore it i just -- i fear where we're going good here, heading over a cliff. paul, mara, please stick around. mark joseph stern, thank you so much. greatly appreciate it as always. after the break just a handful of the people who have seen donald trump serve as president up close are supporting his bid to return to the white house. you can literally count them on one hand. that story is next. is next

power e*trade's easy-to-use tools, like dynamic charting and risk-reward analysis help make trading feel effortless. and its customizable scans with social sentiment help you find and unlock opportunities in the market. e*trade from morgan stanley. your vice president, mike pence, is running against you. your ambassador to the united nations nikki haley she's running against you. your former secretary of state mike pompeo said he's not supporting you. you mentioned national security adviser john bolton he's not supporting you either. you mentioned attorney general bill barr. says you shouldn't be president again. >> well, i mean, you just went through a list. but don't forget, for every one you say i had ten that love us. >> for every one that doesn't support him trump claims that he has ten that love him. and according to a new report from nbc news that does not appear to be the case. nbc news reached out to 44 of

the dozens of cabinet officials who served in the trump administration, and just four, yep four responded saying they support his run for president in 2024. and one of those four endorsements comes from former chief of staff mark meadows, who has been noticeably silent in recent weeks as speculation grows that he could be cooperating in the special counsel's investigation into efforts to overturn the 2020 election. we're just going to leave that right there. we're back with mara and paul. i'll get your thoughts on this. what does it say to you that 4 out of the 44 people that we spoke to -- i would say 3 arguably no one has ever heard of before with the exception of mark meadows are endorsing him for a second run. >> i think it shows you that they know his work and they know his danger to the american republic. some of them in fact have testified to exactly that. before the january 6th committee. and we know that these are not democrats, these are not liberals. if you worked in the trump administration in a political

position and you were higher up, most likely you were a far right republican or adjacent. and you still can't stomach the idea of having donald trump back in the white house. so you know, i think it's a really important measure of his character and his threat to the american republic. >> yeah, and speaking of that, the four cabinet members, paul, who have endorsed him besides mark meadows include russell vought, matthew whitaker and rick grinnell. in trump world do these voices carry more weight than former secretaries of defense, general mattis, john kelly, bill barr, just people who actually served at the highest levels of government? and were at one point, even though they served for trump, were considered the adults in the room. >> no, they don't carry more weight. but i think even more so, i don't trust any of them. like they say that now. they say they won't endorse him. but how many times before have we seen people fall in line and do a 180 when trump gets power and he starts to gather steam. so i don't trust any of them and there's plenty of people who would be lining up at the door if he's back at the white house

to take a job. this is i think a reflection of how big his movement is, because it really is a social movement much more than a political campaign. there's plenty of people who are in line for power who will be right behind the others ready to stand forward if he gets re-elected. and even if he doesn't. because i continue to say it's also a national security story. it's not just a political story but it's how many millions of p story. it's how many angry millions of people can he motivate to do things? how many have guns? they'd always have to be a national security threat. and i think esper, who used to be called yesper, but he says no. >> republicans are unable to call donald trump up for what he is. why does ron desantis and nikki -- >> they're cowards. christie is the only one out

there consistently and i think everybody else thinks he's inevitable. >> and they're all gunning for possible vice president. >> cya drill, covering their butts. >> thank you for joining us on set. a quick break from us. we'll be right back. th ripping . that's changing now. joe biden just capped the price of insulin for seniors at $35 a month. gave medicare the power to negotiate lower prescription drug prices. and prices are already starting to go down. the out-of-pocket cost is dropping for 27 drugs. [narrator] learn how the inflation reduction act will save you money. - "best thing i've ever done." that's what freddie told me. - it was the best thing i've ever done, and- - really? - yes, without a doubt! - i don't have any anxiety about money anymore. - great people. different people, that's for sure, and all of them had different reasons

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finally for us, a federal judge has blocked a law that

would have made it a crime for book sellers to give minors materials deemed harmful to them, punishable by up to six years in prison and a fine. it was set to take effect tomorrow. another dozen states are considering similar bills this year alone. the judge said it violated the first amendment and the state's definition of harmful was so vague that it would encourage censorship. he wrote, "there is more than one way to burn a book and the world is full of people running about with lit matches." we're going to stay on this story for you as the country seems especially full of lit matches these days. another quick break for us. we'll be right back. what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. now you get out there, and you make us proud, huh?

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all right. that does it for "deadline white house." "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. >> good evening. i'm ari melber. i want to say a big thank you to katie and melissa for taking

over when i was off. here's what we know right now as i'm with you as the week begins. smith's washington, d.c. grand jury is expected to meet tomorrow. that's in the open criminal case where smith formally targeted trump for indictment. and that means we do know the d.o.j.'s intent to charge, but not the d.o.j.'s plans, it's details or anything like a time frame. no one can define when the next steps will be taken. that includes the subject and target donald trump who was vaguely speculating today that his indictment on these coup charges could come any day now but he doesn't know that. he only knows what we've already reported, that smith told him that he is a target of the probe. then there are new developments in the case where smith has already indicted trump, piling on more charges last week over the alleged efforts to cover up the espionage violations that d.o.j. initially charged. that news hit as many people