experience. most of the participants are unable to be in the ocean unsupervised. so, for many of the parents, this is the only time they can bring their kids to the beach. my little team was led by the spring beach serve school, but it wasn't just us, we had specially trained surf instructors from all over the jersey shore who empowered these amazing children to leave behind any physical and mental limitations and just ride the waves for a day. and that experience isn't just fun, it can have a profound impact. one father shared that after a past, event his non verbal child became verbal for an entire week after the serve therapy session. and for the first time, for their family. this day was pure magic. and i want you to know, it wasn't magic just for these children, but for all of us in the water, just experiencing for a day, a morning, the best

of mother nature and humanity. if you would like more information on surf therapy at future events, you can visit waves strength.org. it is the perfect reminder. if you need help, ask for it. if you can give help, please give it. it is worth it. and on that note, i wish you a very good and safe monday night. for all of our colleagues across nbc news, thanks for staying up late with me. i'll see it tomorrow. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> thanks for you at home joining us this hour. good to have you here tonight. all right, here it is. already? in late december, philip johnson and alan blackburn someone a reporter from the new york herald tribune to johnson's office at the museum of modern art in new york city. they were offering an exclusive, the herald tribune called them adventurous with an intellectual overlay, and explained that the two were

taking a sabbatical from the museum in order to start a new political movement. they were calling it the national party, and they were lighting out for louisiana the very next day to try to sign on huey long as the new national leader. johnson and blackburn that revealed the national parties seemingly idiotic slogan to the reporter. it was the need is for one party. they also showed him the snazzy new penance they designed, bullies and with an aerodynamic flying wedge series of emblems. they would be mounting these pendants on johnson's automobile. they also laid out their new parties platform, which consisted in its entirety of, quote, direct action and, quote, more emotionalism in government. no policy at all, just feelings and action, lots of action. johnson said they wanted nothing but courage and loyalty from their followers, the kind of courage and loyalty that

gangsters john diligence and alkabo inspired, he explained. and they talk to all of this with the reporter while leaving through firearms catalogs and choosing the weapons they might take with them on the road. quote, mr. johnson favored a sub machine gun, the herald tribune reported, but mr. blackmon preferred one of the larger types of pistol. the next day, the pair of 20 something's attached there flying wedge felt pendants to the fenders of johnson's rodeo 12 cylinder packard. they look at the car with volumes of shakespeare, machiavelli, nishi, dennis, and their weapons catalogs, if not the actual weapons yet. they headed south. so, what that is from is i wrote a book. [laughter] i have written a new book. i said i would never do this again, but i did. we just got the confirm publication date, and we just got in my first look of the cover. this is what it looks like.

the book is called prequel, un-american fight against fascism. it comes out october 17th. i have been killing myself getting it done, which is why i look this way. [laughter] but it is done. and this is the very first announcement i've been able to make about it, writing, i find, is the absolute hardest thing in the world. i do think of the books i have written. i wrote drift, which was about military and politics around the military. iraq blowout, which is about the oil and gas industry and russia as a rogue state. i wrote bag man, which is about the spiro agnew prosecution. those are my previous books. they were all very difficult. [laughter] and i said after each of, them i would never write another one. and now i have. i will say, this is the one i think i am most proud of, at least i feel i've been most compelled to right. so, here it is. this is my announcement. i will tell you more about as we get closer to the publication date. but two things to note, tonight,

first of all, i want to do some kind of book tour this fall when it comes out, not like a giant book tour, but somewhere between like a half dozen any doesn't cities. so, if you have any desire to see me in person, keep an eye out for that. i will let you know when tickets go on sale for all those events and where i'm going to be, when, that again, that's this fall. and, if you think you might want to read the book, like i said, it comes out october 17th. but today is the day, as of today, you can preorder it so that you get it the day it comes out, which is i i wanted to tell you about it today, because today is the first day for reorders. today is the first day you can put in a preorder. put in a preorder. today ou cagain, the title is p. you can order it online as of right now at msnbc.com slash recall. and that's it for now. point of personal privilege over. at least now you know why recently i've look like i've been run over by a bus.

it's because writing is absolutely impossible, and i have been doing a lot of it. and i'm really into this book. and i really hope that you like it. i hope that people take it, and you get something out of it. it was really important to me. and anyway -- okay, that's it. announcement over. october 17th, msnbc.com slash prequel, okay. away. where we start tonight is not in december 1934 in new york city with rich young fascists trying to start their own ridiculous pro dictator american political party and designing pence to go on the car to advertise it. we do not start there tonight where. we start tonight is now in our current day in the great state of minnesota, where a reporter for the conservative national review magazine recently wrote, quote, for the price of a new xbox game, you as well can own your very own state party. and it turns out, that is sort

of true. madden nfl 23 for xbox one's $53.99. the game farming simulator 22, that's an xbox game, that one cost 49 99. star wars jedi survivor is $52.49. if you are willing and able to shell out that kind of money, roughly, for an xbox game, let me tell you, national review is right, you are right in the ballpark for what it would take to buy out all of the cash assets of the republican party of the great state of minnesota. the state republican party of minnesota recently reported that its bank accounts are currently flushed with a grand total of $53.81. so, that is $1.32 more than the star war game cost. but for farm simulator, it's actually a deal. you could cash in all the cash

assets of the minnesota republican party, and with that money, you could get the 49 99 farming simulator game, plus almost $4 change, which means you, and addition to that xbox farming simulator, you could buy some cheetos, not the big bag of cheetos, not, participated pretty good size one, especially if you are on sale. why does the republican party of the state of minnesota have less than $60 in its bank account? i do not know. but the daily beast was the first to report it, and the details actually only get worse from there. in addition to having less than $60 to its name, the republican party of minnesota also reportedly has over $330,000 in debt, which needs to pay off, which it will not be able to pay off with less than $60 cash in its bank account. so, that does not seem good. it also turns out is not an isolated story. the same sort of thing, at least a variation on this sort

of thing is happening in a whole bunch of key states for republicans right now. and colorado, for example, the colorado son was first to report that that state's republican party was so broke that it has stopped paying its employees and that it is unable to pay rent on its office space. the deputy chief of the colorado house republican party told the colorado senate that the colorado state republican party very simply is bankrupt. now, i don't know if there's a connection, but i should also tell you that the colorado republican party is planning to vote next week to simply cancel the 2024 republican primary in colorado. if you don't have no money to pay your rent and your staffers and your bankrupt, i guess something's got to go, why not your basic function as a party? in arizona, the messenger news outlet was first to report that

arizona's state republican party reported in its federal election filings that it has only about $23,000 in the bank in total. and that might be enough to trade for a new hyundai you launcher, but only if you don't want one with cruise control. for all the trouble with the arizona republican party being that broke, i should tell you, that the party's highest profile trump supporter election denier politician, arizona republican parties failed gubernatorial candidate kari lake, she's heading soon to a other state, to michigan, to help michiganders republican party raise some money. you think she could help out at home, but no, she's going to michigan to help them raise money. that was just reported today by the detroit news. that said, maybe it's needed to help. even with arizona being as broke as it is, look, in arizona, they've got trouble to. the michigan state republican party is broke as well. it reported $93,000 total in their bank accounts.

and that comes in michigan because 16 for republicans, including the state party co-chair, are now facing multiple felony charges for having submitted themselves as forged electors, as michigan electors in the presidential race in 2020, even though they really want, because joe biden won that state, not donald trump. . we don't yet know if other people who participated in the fake electors scheme for other people and other states are gonna be tried as well the way they've been charging michigan. ay but georgia is one of the states where that is a possibility. in georgia, we know a bunch of the republicans that participated in the fake electors scheme, they received target letters from the prosecutors office in that state, fani willis's office, as she investigates various efforts to throughout georgia's election results and falsely proclaimed trump the winner. the atlanta journal constitution was first to report that this is also turning out to be an expensive prospect for the state

republican party in georgia. georgia state republican party agreed to pay the legal bills for those fake electors, and in so doing, georgia state's republican party saddled themselves with a remarkable financial burden already in the first half of this year, the party spent, like, over $500,000 on this. it spent five times what it spent on all the parties annual legal expenses combined as recently as 2021. and we're only halfway through the year thus far. in the first half of 2023, they've spent five times what they spent on all legal expenses for everything as recently as 2021, and i was for the full year. that's a lot of states with a lot of financial drama. and these are not state republicans in, like, forgive me, sort of obscure states where things are never going to be contested. in minnesota, colorado, arizona, michigan, georgia, that's like

the table of contents for places republicans want to show what they can do in this next election cycle, and the one after that. but all of them, all of those states, they were broke, or they're spending themselves into oblivion. i started by saying that the national assets of the minnesota state republican party to the price of a single xbox game. that same conservative publication recently looked at this dire financial picture in multiple states and said this, they said, quote, if republicans are disappointed with the results of the 2024 elections for the fourth straight cycle, mind you, a key factor will be the replacement of competent boring regular state party officials with quite exciting blustering not jobs who have little or no interest in the basics of successfully managing a state party or the basic blocking and tackling involved in helping gop candidates win elections. quite exciting blustering not

jobs. could not have said it better myself. . and here is another piece of what i think is that same puzzle. morning consult recently did a public approval poll and all 50 states, and it was public approval pulling in all 50 states about the governors of all 50 states. and this generated a lot of local headlines, state headlines, that you'd expect. most of those headlines were about the relative spending of the most and least popular governors in the country and for governors that were up for reelection this morning consult polling helped various local publications get a handle on whether that governor's approval rating was going up or down with voters as they head towards trying to hold on to their seat next year. that kind of local interests and state interest. here's my interest though. look at this stuff overall. however you might be in who's more or less popular among the governors, there's one big

overarching story here, which is that all of the governors are popular. all of them, and all 50 states. there is not a single governor in any state in the country right now who has a higher disapproval that approval rating. not a single governor in the entire country is underwater. they are all more positively viewed as their constituents than they are negatively viewed. and again, you can maybe tell a story of local interest about anyone governor who finds himself or herself in that position. but when it's all 50 governors who are in that position, that's a bigger story. that's a national story hiding in plain sight, which is that americans broadly are not that unhappy with how things are being run right now. and yes, you ask people about national political figures and national political institutions and american say, like,

basically, broadly, american say, oh yeah, i hate them, i had the congress, i hate the supreme court, i don't like the president. on a silly, americans, unless they're kind of casualty about it, they don't really like any other presidential candidates who want to run against the president either. so, if you ask about like how things are going governance wise, nationally, people are like, oh, i'm sure things are absolutely terrible. that doesn't have national political opposition around it. if you ask, how are things actually running government wise, as you see it, more or less, the answers in every state in the country was that things are okay everybody is pretty happy. everybody is at least more happy than not in all 50 states. every single governor in the country's, and if you put a political science lens on that, so you stop and try and parse that in terms of the individual performance of these governors. if you put a political science

lens on, that basically means if you strip away nationalized partisan political combat, nationalized partisan tribalism, the fundamentals in the country, has viewed by the american people are pretty good. and the fundamentals are almost always about the economy. so, yeah, you look at that chart of every governor in america being above water, maybe that has something to do with the beating all expectations economic growth, and personal income rising, and inflation flattening out, and infrastructure surge, and record job growth and, the lowest sustained unemployment we have had in decades. and no one apparently wants to acquit joe biden in the biden administration for that. so, they look at their governor. they credit the governor in each of the 50 states. [laughter] but that's okay. we can read. we know basic political

science. we also know basic polling, where if the country really was over president joe biden and really wanted him out of their, and everybody was really ready for somebody new, then the opposing party, the republicans would be falling all over themselves to write that trey, to become one of the more immensely popular candidates ready to take on this unpopular president, joe biden, who everybody agrees is doing such a bad job, right? that is not what's happening. the newest new york times siena college poll this out today shows this. former president donald trump with 54% of the vote. his nearest rival, at 17%. and not a single other candidate topping 3%. now, again, looking at this and political science terms, in general, when you've got only two people polling above 30%, we are supposed to call that a two man race. but one of the men holds a 37

point lead over the other one, what you are looking at is not a race at all, not a two man race. this is a rump. according to the new york times and alice's of its own poll today, quote, half century of modern presidential primaries, no candidate who let his or her nearest rival by at least 20 points at this stage has ever lost a party nomination. and trump isn't leading right now by 20 points. he is leaving by nearly double that. he is leading by 37 points. and it's not a matter of the, you know, opposition being split, even of all the not trump candidates had their percentages combined, you still have trump at 54 and everybody else combined at 30%. we would still leading by 24%. and it actually got worse when pollsters flat out asked responders about that scenario. they asked about the guy pulling second to trump. they said, okay, imagine if you didn't even have the choice of any of the other candidates who are all at one, two, 3%. imagine you can only choose between number one, number two guys in this poll. you can only choose between

trump and ron desantis. you would expect desantis to pick up all the other non trump candidates votes. you expect that you would have that, you know, 54 to 30, that 24 point margin between. but, no, desantis can't even do that. when asked in a hypothetical matchup between trump and desantis, republican voters say that trump doesn't lead desantis by 24 points, trump leads desantis by 31 points. 62 to 31, he doubles him. he lapse him. even in florida alone, new florida atlantic university polling shows desantis would lose to trump in florida by 17 points. so, at least so far, i mean, things might change. but at least so far on the republican side, hey, republican party, how are you doing? it's turning out not to be a race at all, which means the only republican who appears to have any shot at all at running against president biden's the

former guy. who as christy pointed out this weekend is likely to be out on bail in four different jurisdictions by the time of the first republican presidential debate, provided that they have one given that these are the contours of the republican presidential primary. the only person who the republican party appears capable to put up to run against biden is someone who is likely to be out on bail in as many as four different jurisdictions by the time the first republican debate happens, it is someone who is running for the presidency as a hail mary to dismantle the american legal system and constitutional structure, and thereby keep himself out of prison. to credibly field in this election against joe biden, if they really think that president biden is beatable. but that is where we are, with the state republican parties in

five more or less crucial states, either in dire financial straits, or with crippling financial commitments to people charged with trump related crimes, or just outright bankrupt. we've got a republican presidential primary that mathematically isn't either worth watching, let alone polling at this point. california state republican party meeting this weekend, the l.a. times reports that police had to be called in to avert fistfights between two different republican factions. what is adorable about this story is the nature of the fight, at the behest of the trump campaign, a california republican party tried to change the rules of its presidential primary to benefit trump. trump's campaign basically told the california republican party to change the rules of its primary, so that trump would be all but guaranteed to get every single one of the delegates out of california. the california republican party asked to do this by the trump campaign said, yes, sir, absolutely, how high. but some of the more trump

supporters and that party convinced themselves that the nefarious scheme must be a trick to flip them. and so, you know, they put on their tinfoil hats, and made their little signs about the illuminati, and whatever, and marched on the meeting. and fights broke out. and the cops had to be called to break it up. the national review said, quite exciting, blustering not jobs. so, depending on where you are in the country, if you are a republican, this is your republican party. party financial assets equal to one discounted mid level xbox game in one key state. fistfights among the republican faithful in another state only because they are so qanon oriented, they cannot even understand whether they get what they want, a biden economy that everyone begrudgingly admits is working for everyone, even if no one is willing to credit biden for it. and an accused felon promising

to destroy the country, as the only challenger they are able to put forward to run against president biden. in this challenging time for one of our two supposedly governing parties, where is this all landing? where is this all going? where it has been landing, it seems like it's going to keep landing, is in culture war politics, which so far is going great for them. republicans, for example, continuing to rail against the barbie movie, which has now taken in 700 and $75 million, and counting, just a global juggernaut that people absolutely love, which republicans say you are wrong to like. ron desantis in florida trying his hand at it when it national political message by campaigning on the needs to look at the bright side of the slavery. in arkansas this weekend, a federal judge having to step in to stop arkansas republican

governor, sarah huckabee sanders's plan, to start arresting librarians and people who work at bookstores for the grave crime of loaning out and selling books. we have also been reporting recently on republican attorney generals in the states, in republican-controlled states, using their powers to confiscate private unredacted medical records from regular civilians in their state. this is now earning a major lawsuit in tennessee as of last week. today brought another lawsuit against the attorney general in alabama, who says if you are an alabama resident, he wants to get your private medical records, even if you go to another state to get health care, because he might want to prosecute you for the health care unit in another state, so he wants to check out your private medical records to see what you and your doctor are doing. or you might want to prosecute your friends, your mom, for aiding, and then you leaving the state for health care, once he's gone through your medical records to decide if that

health care is something he wants to prosecute you for. in alaska, where the republican attorney general said he wants to do the same thing. in alaska, the attorney general says he wants your private medical records to see what kind of health care you are getting even outside of alaska. here's the headline editorial in the anchorage daily news, quote, alaska attorney general trig taylor think your health information is his business. the same paper also published an op-ed that pushed it even further. look at this headline, opinion, how the alaska attorney generals letter replays the mistakes that led to the civil rule war. that's what the biggest paper in your state is publishing out your attorney general, you are doing something wrong that. going after gay people, going after a trans people, going after immigrants and black people, latinos, asian americans, and going after the civil rights, going after the civil rights history, and stealing peoples private medical records to investigate what kind of health care they are getting, the republican

party is doing their best to show us what they want for the country. and the stuff that they are doing is also deeply, deeply unpopular. even angering. and we've got one prime and very pressing example of that, coming up on tonight's show. we've got lots more to come tonight. busy night. stay with us. is strong enamel- nothing beats it. new pronamel active shield actively shields the enamel to defend against erosion and cavities. i think that this product is a gamechanger for my patients- it really works. when i was diagnosed with h-i-v, i didn't know who i would be. but here i am... being me. keep being you... and ask your healthcare provider about the number one prescribed h-i-v treatment, biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in many people whether you're 18 or 80. with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to undetectable—and stay there whether you're just starting or replacing your current treatment.

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republicans have passed a full ban of abortion. a six-week ban. and ohio residents don't like that. there is a ballot measure is set for this november that would undo the republican abortion ban and protect abortion rights in that state. that a ballot measure is leading and ohio polling right now by more than 25 points. and look at this, among independent women, among women not which is third in either party, the pro-abortion rights measure that would undo the republican abortion ban, it's got 85% support among

independent women. and so, ohio republicans have just filed a lawsuit to try to keep that measure off the ballot, to keep ohio residents from being allowed to vote on it. and next week, a week from tomorrow, ohio republicans will try to change the rules, so something like that can't pass with a simple majority. they are trying to change the rules so you need a big supermajority to pass something like that. they are only trying to change those rules because they know they will lose when ohio votes on what they are doing. one of the things that's going on in american politics, nationally and at the state level, is that between trump at the top of the republican party, and this culture war stuff really failing for republicans, politically, republicans really have deep political challenges all over the country. ohio is an example or here. keeping people from voting

against you because they know they'll vote against two, it's a sign of how bad things are, and a sign of how they are planning to fight, contest to power, when people broadly just do not want what they are sending. joining us now is david pepper. he is the former chair of the ohio democratic party. he's been conical in the rise of anti, small democratic policies across the country. his within two books on the subject, including laboratories of autocracy, a wake up call from behind the lines. mr. pepper, thank you for being here. appreciate your time tonight. >> thanks for having me, rachel. great to be with you. >> what should national audience watching me right now understand about what's happening in ohio around the republican abortion ban, the effort to overturn it, and this vote that's gonna happen next week? >> i mean, first, we need to understand that this is an all out battle for ohio's democracy long term. this is part of the big national picture you described. the issue is sort of the giveaway about what the broader

m o is. it's not only that there are issues like abortion bans, no exceptions, that led to that raped girl from ohio into indiana. it's deeply unpopular. they know that. it shakes their entire battle, whether it's gerrymandering everywhere. they do that because they know that their issues are toxic, whether suppressing the votes of the majority, or in this case, as you said, just changing the rules midstream, they know that their views are not popular. kansas was sort of a bad signal that these state houses are way beyond their state people when it comes to their views. and in this case, it's a perfect example, they just want to change the rules. and in this case, they are scheduling an election next week on a day that they made it illegal to have an election. so, they break their own rules to rig the rules against the majority rule. it really shows you what they are doing nationally. ohio is just a recent test case in what they want to get away with. >> do people in ohio get that dynamic?

i mean, i ask because as you mentioned, there is this vote next week, which is about changing the rules, making it that you have to have a supermajority to pass something like this abortion rights measure, which previously we just had been at 50% vote, and you don't want it that way. and i read some descriptions recently from local elections officials, talking about the people turning out, registering, and early voting for that matter. and they seemed to indicate that people in ohio are turning out in unusually large numbers because they seem angered by this effort to change the rules. obviously, you are holding an election in august, which you are hoping that up very people's show up. it seems like ohio residents might show up next week. >> we had to do it to get in front of the november one. secondly, ohioans are frustrated because these are the same people who literally violated the ohio constitution numerous times to gerrymander themselves in the districts that violated the u.s. constitution. and in this case, they were hoping that an august election,

although most people see it for what it is, the turnout would be low enough that they could scare their own voters through ridiculous ads, so they show up and have artificial majority only on august 8th. the good news is i think people are seeing it. we are seeing that in the polls. we are seeing that early vote. but like most political folks take nothing for granted, we've got a week to get every ballot that's out in, and to show up on august 8th, and not allow them to win on this sneaky attack against ohio's democracy. >> david pepper, former chair of the ohio democratic party, now 18 observer of those states politics, thanks for being here tonight. keep us over the course of next week. i think that vote next week is gonna be really nationally important. thank you. >> absolutely, we'll do. >> all right, much more ahead here tonight. stay with us. ford essential school supplies. subaru and our retailers are there to help by giving millions of dollars in funding along with school supplies students need.

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we've gotten new filing from former president trump's political fundraising group, detailing its spending for the first half of this year. as expected, it shows payments of tens of millions of dollars in legal fees for the former president and his advisers and allies. that massive expenditure on lawyers is becoming an increasing drama in terms of trump's fundraising for his presidential campaign. just because of the impression that trump is having to spend a lot of that legal money because he is enjoying basically setting fire to it. i say this not because he doesn't deserve an expensive

and we'll put on legal defense in his many trials. as well, i say it because he keeps doing ridiculous things with lawyers. for example, his long shot bid to get his hush money criminal case in new york transferred into federal court. that was slapped down decisively earlier this month. he is nevertheless appealing that ruling spending a whole bunch more money on a case that's really gonna never go his way. he's also having his attorneys go to court to try and revive the bizarre racketeering lawsuit he once filed against hillary clinton. for a flavor of this one, you should note that a federal judge already not only dismissed this case, but the judge ordered trump and his lawyer to pay $1 million in sanctions for even bringing something this ridiculous in the first place. and yet, here trump goes again, demanding that his lawyers go back into court and file that one again. trump also just had his laugh out loud defamation suit against cnn thrown out of court. and just today in georgia, a fulton county judge almost literally laughed off trump's

attempt to have the election interference investigation over their derailed before he's even indicted. the judge's order referenced schemes that suggested that trump was drifting his supporters of his legal woes. yet tens of millions of dollars in legal fees well spent. but the other serious question raised by all the money that trump world is spending on lawyers is what it means for the various investigations surrounding him, that he is paying the legal bills of his codefendants and some witnesses, and potential codefendants and witnesses in some of these cases. i say this as an issue because we've seen him doing before. one of the things that's left hanging from the january 6th investigation in congress was a potential witness tampering incident that the investigation exposed. the committee's star witness, cassidy hutchinson, you may remember she got a phone call ahead of her deposition with the january 6th investigation. and in that phone call, she was told that trump's chief of staff knew she was loyal, and

that she would do the right thing. investigators later released testimony from her in which she described how her trump funded lawyer had attempted to shape her testimony and limit what she was willing to tell the january 6th investigation. cassidy hutchinson says that that trump funded lawyer told her, quote, the less you remember, the better. eventually, hutchinson got herself a new lawyer who was not on trump's payroll, or on the payroll of his campaign. but that allegation about a trump funded lawyer trying to influence the testimony of his purported client now seems quite relevant again. there are now two trump employees charged along with their boss and the classified documents case, the federal criminal case in florida. lawyers for both of those men are being paid by legal entities -- or excuse me, by political entities associated with trump. and that raises the question, are those attorneys acting in the interest of their clients? or are they acting in trump's

interests? did the trump lawyer who allegedly tried to influence cassidy hutchinson's testimony ever face any consequences for that? what can special counsel jack smith investigators learned potentially from the january 6th investigation in congress, when they went up against this kind of potential witness tampering before. luckily, we have just the person to ask about that. joining us now is tim haiti, he's the former lead investigator for the congressional investigation into january 6th. mr. hayfield, thanks for being with us. >> thanks for the invitation, rachel. >> i just wanted to ask you about this hanging thread from the january 6th investigation which does feel like it's got some residents with what's going on right now. i know the investigation made criminal referrals for trump, also for john eastman that encouraged associations to look further in some of the lawyers involved in this case, including the lawyer representing cassidy hutchinson. i know he sued the committee for suggesting that he tried to wrongly influence his climb. can you just tell us, sort of,

what became of all that? how that all ended up? how that>> so, you mentioned one thread. there are actually two threads that are significant here. the first one is how the money was raised in the first place. so, as the select committee showed, rachel, the trump campaign very quickly pivoted to a max fund raising operation, essentially peddling election lies. stop the steal became a cash machine, and it raised about 250 billion dollars between the election and president biden's inauguration. that money, the vast majority of it went into the save america back, which we then saw over the course of our investigation as the entity that was paying the fees of witnesses before the select committee. the people that gave money to this effort, in this effort, we're told it was going to the election defense fund, that it was going to pay for litigation or other efforts to reverse the

results of the election. results of the election. it did not go to any such thing. there was no election defense fund. instead, it went to the save america pac. the first threat is the life and the grief that trump folks perpetuated to get the money. and then the second thread is the one that you mention. that money goes to pay the legal fees of more than 1000 witnesses, not just cassidy hutchinson, but others, a lot of those witnesses did not remember very salient things, very important conversations. and others said they were present for. only cassidy really suggested directly that she was coached to lie. she indicated that her first trump funded lawyer, essentially encouraged her to hold information back. and he said you don't need to tell them about that. they don't know what you don't know. but we had the suspicion, and we articulated this in our report, that a lot of the trump funded lawyers essentially were

coaching witnesses to obscure key facts. so it seems to be a pattern. and it is one that definitely impacted our investigation. >> coaching a witness to a lie, coaching a witness to pretend to forget things that they don't forget, coaching it witness to obscure the facts is a serious matter for a lawyer. i mean, lawyers are not supposed to do that. that is potentially, that's a way to get in trouble if you are a lawyer for a lot of different reasons. but in terms of witnesses who are considering their options, given that pattern that you just described, what advice would you give as somebody who's wrapped in these investigations, who is currently being represented by a trump backed lawyer, especially somebody who might likely resources to get a good lawyer on their own, should they be wary? >> look, the ethical rules allow for the third-party payment of legal fees. that is not against the rules. the lawyer, though, is being paid by a third party, and has to be loyal to the client, not

the fees. if i were in that situation, i would want to ensure that my lawyer was looking out for me, was acting in my best interest, was not sharing information or giving me advice motivated by anything other than what is in my best advice. so, anyone who needs legal advice, legal assistance of any kind needs to be clear that the duty of loyalty is given to them and those individuals who are accepting the generosity of the legal fees ought to be asking, hey, is this lawyer really they're looking out for me and only me? or is there some other agenda? >> very clarifying. tim heaphy, former lead investigation for the investigation into january 6th. heaphy, it is something that can sound technical and distance, but when you zero in on it, it's clear, and a little alarming. thanks for your time tonight, sir. >> thanks, rachel. >> we'll be right back. stay with us.

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that our country engages with them is a universally respected american program called pepfar, a huge sustained initiative to fight aids, save lives. one of the unilaterally uncomplicated good things that u.s. has ever done in africa, and it absolutely works. but in may, in light of the new law with the death penalty for being gay, the biden administration said it would reassess its funding of that program. it has not laid out that way. so far, the white house has made no changes. a senior administration official told nbc news last week, for now, the program will continue as is, and that the administration will, quote, reassess on an ongoing basis. they will reassess the ability to deliver the pepfar funding and how, again, no changes for now. now, the people who support pepfar, the people who have been champions of it, many of whom who work with african human rights groups, they are calling on the biden administration to change things,

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