"morning joe" starts right now. >> it passes ahead. a break, a shot at the post. that's incredible. the world cup almost ended right there for the u.s. >> that is how close, just a little while ago this morning, the u.s. women's national team came from being eliminated from the world cup. whew, hits the post right there. portugal's shot just missed outside. the united states team is able to play to a draw and advance to the knockout round. the team moves on as the runners-up in group e, likely will face the winners of group g, which could be sweden. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, august 1st. jonathan lemire, we've been watching the tournament. last two games, draws for the united states. first round was closer than a lot of people thought it should have been against vietnam.

united states is on to the knockout round. the game ended a few minutes ago. man, by the skin of their teeth. >> they were inches away from their tournament being over in a flash. we knew, the u.s. is two-time defending champions, and this is a historic run by this squad. going into the tournament, we knew this was a bit of a transition year. it's sort of the last gasp, if you will, from some of the stalwarts we've gotten to know from the last couple runs. they're older now, and there is a young and impressive group of players coming through. at times, it's been an uneasy mix. they, frankly, haven't looked very good so far. they beat vietnam 3-0 when expectations were seven, eight, nine or more, then a pair of draws. it can't be said enough, if this is a couple inches to the left, they go home. they're fortunate to advance here. they have a couple days off. hopefully they get things going in the right direction before the knockout stage. >> two-time defending champions, the women's team are on to the

knockout round. as jonathan said, maybe a reset now as the next game will be an elimination game. with us this morning, "the washington post"'s jackie alemany and pulitzer prize winning columnist and associate editor of "the washington post," eugene robinson. good morning to you both. yes, we are, tell me if you've heard this before, on grand jury testimony watch. could there be an indictment? special counsel jack smith's investigation into former president donald trump for his alleged efforts to overturn the legitimate results of the 2020 election expected to be back in session today. it's been two weeks since trump announced on social media he received a target letter, an indication charges could be brought in the near future. the former president could face charges of depriving voters their rights, conspiracy to defraud the united states, and witness tampering. trump posted yesterday on social media he assumes an indictment will be coming, quote, any day now. jackie, we've all been assuming

that now for about a week and a half. we've told our viewers last week that the grand jury meets in washington on tuesdays and thursdays. here we are on another tuesday. where is your sense of where things are, to the extent anyone has a sense of where things are? >> yeah, willie, well, i'm renascent to make any predictions, because last week, we had predicted that the january 6th indictment for former president donald trump was going to be coming down, and instead we all got a surprise with the superseding indictment instead with the classified documents case, the other case jack smith is working on, where a third employee, carlos de oliveira, was charged with a slew of crimes related to the mishandling of classified documents. but this week, we are expecting, finally, the indictment to come down from the justice department on donald trump regarding the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol and all of the effort

efforts ahead of january 6th in the aftermath to try to overturn the election. you are right, the grand jury does meet today. we will all be on lookout. i'm sure there are tons of cameras and producers and reporters already staked out outside that courthouse in d.c. right now. of course, this is a waiting game, and anything is possible. we have been waiting, after all, for over a year now. >> gene robinson, we'll talk in a minute about new polling that shows the impact these indictments and the next likely indictment are having on donald trump, which is to say, working to his advantage. >> yeah. >> it is, because of the target letter, it is fair to say, and our legal analysts underscored this, it's a matter of time here, this indictment around the january 6th and the 2020 election case. >> yeah, it is a matter of time. that's pretty clear. we just don't know about jack smith. you know, we have seen that he is willing, for example, in the documents case, he filed a

superseding indictment that included new charges and a new person. so even if we think there might be a few loose ends he is trying to tie up here in washington on the january 6th case, that doesn't necessarily mean that he's not ready to indict with what he has now, and perhaps if there's still a few more people he needs to hear from or some more business he wants to take care of, he could do a superseding indictment. we really just don't know when this is going to happen, but i think we're pretty confident that it is going to happen, given the target letter. >> trump himself posted on truth social yesterday, "it's coming any day now." he's been, for once, a reliable narater when it comes to the indictments. he's shared there has been a target letter. as we've been saying throughout this process, willie, when it goes to court, this might be the

most difficult case to prove, just because it is so sprawling. there's so many pieces of it. but it is also the most important. many feel that it's so vital that this charge about january 6th -- it's beyond january 6th, it's beyond the capitol riots. it is also the efforts to overturn the election -- be brought. it was an assault at the fabric of our democracy. >> absolutely. in the other federal case against donald trump, the charges against him for mishandling classified documents, including nuclear secrets after leaving the white house, the third defendant in the case, mar-a-lago property manager carlos de oliveira, made his first appearance in a miami court. de oliveira was charged with four counts related to his alleged efforts to erase security camera footage at trump's palm beach home, which was monitoring a room where boxes of classified documents were being stored. that's according to prosecutors. the order to destroy the footage came from trump directly and was given to de oliveira and the

former president's valet, walt nauta. trump denied ordering the footage to be deleted. de oliveira doesn't have a florida-based attorney so didn't have a plea. he is released on $10,000 bond and is due back in court for arraignment. let's bring in barbara mcquaid. good the see you this morning. because there's so much going on, we'll remind viewers mr. de oliveira the property manager at mar-a-lago named in the superseding indictment we got last week that suggested he was directed by donald trump, according to prosecutors, to go find the tape, delete the tape that could show security footage perhaps of people moving classified documents around, and that donald trump then checked in on him to make sure he was still good, that he was still loyal, "you're still on our side. you're not going to flip." what did we learn yesterday, if anything, from the hearing, and how central a figure might mr. de oliveira be in this case? >> well, willie, the appearance

yesterday was rather routine, which they often are. we did learn he has not yet secured a lawyer, which means his arraignment will have to be delayed until that can happen. i think that it does build in the possibility of more delay in the ultimate trial date, that may 20th trial date. the longer it takes for him to get a lawyer, i imagine it will cause them to ask for additional time. i don't know whether they'll get it, but i think that is a possibility. how important is he? i think he is very important. he adds to this dimension of obstruction of justice, and that is, after all, what makes this case so different from other cases involving inadvertent retention of classified documents. you know, the case with mike pence, the case with joe biden, where, upon discovery, they alerted the officials and returned the boxes. here, there was an alleged movement of boxes, where donald trump was engaged with the government over the return of the documents. instead of returning them, he

reviewed them all, and the movement of boxes was captured on video, which the government later was able to obtain. i think he is a key witness because he is the one who pulls all that together. >> another new figure introduced in the superseding indictment, barbara, is what was known in the document as trump employee number four. cnn is reporting he was the i.t. worker who was working with de oliveira, and de oliveira said, "i need you to delete the security cameras, the tapes," and he said, "i don't think i can do that." in the indictment, he doesn't seem to be charged with anything. could it be possible he is cooperating with the government. >> the word "cooperating" is a term of art in prosecution, and it means it is someone who has criminal exposure and agreed that in exchange for providing information, they will either get a lenient sentence or not be charged at all. it appears that employee number four will not be charged at all because he's not named in the

indictment, and he's not charged. in fact, it looks like he did what you would hope a person would do, which is to decline to engage in obstruction of justice. you know, we have focused on the violated the law in their loyalty to donald trump, in the form of walt nauta and carlos de oliveira, but there are other people, trump employee x, y or z, and did the right thing and have not complied and appear that they have testified at the grand jury. because we know from their testimony about some of these facts. i think employee number four could end up being a key witness in all this. >> he did receive a target letter but not charged in the case. we'll keep an eye on him, as well. let's move to georgia, where a jump has denied yet another attempt by former president trump's legal team to stop the investigation by fulton county d.a. fani willis about alleged interference in 2020. this is the second ruling

against the trump team in as many weeks. a third petition to the court is scheduled for an august 10th hearing. in a nine-page ruling, the trump found neither the former president nor one of his former allies in squashing the investigation. willis saying, quote, we are ready to go. barbara, the nine-page ruling is forceful, a smackdown, if you'll forgive the term, of the lawyers. frankly, he is saying, "you're gumming up the system. these are not credible claims to get rid of the investigation. it will move on." like the supreme court in georgia did last week, telling effectively trump's legal team, "this case is going forward." >> yes, i mean, until you're charged with a crime, you don't have any standing to say, "i can't be charged with a crime." we don't even know what the indictment might allege, if any. so the time to file motions attacking charges or even the

validity of a grand jury or the process there is after those charges are filed. i imagine that trump will file many of those motions afterwards. but the idea you can do it prematurely, before you've even seen what potential charges are there, is just not ripe, it's not ready. most legal experts expected to get this ruling, but i think what is valuable is the ruling came now, so there is no uncertainty for fani willis to be able to go forward. the last one remaining relates to her recusal from the case. again, i don't see any reason to expect that one will be granted, but even if, for some reason, it does, there will be some assistant who is ready to go forward. so this case is going forward one way or the other, and the time to attack it will come later. >> fani willis, the d.a., has said august, and here we are in august now, ready for that. we will see. barbara, before we let you go, i understand you had recorded and were planning to watch the women's soccer match, and we sp you at the top of the show.

accept our policies. i know you're a big fan. what is your assessment? can the team turn it around in the knockout round? >> yeah, i think so. you know, we've had some early hesitations, i guess, i suppose, but i'll be watching, wearing my megan rapinoe jersey as we advance to the next stages. she's the secret weapon. they have to get her on the pitch more. >> i agree. i think they'll turn it around. sorry we ruined it for you. still a fun watch if you want to sit through it again. barbara mcquaid, thank you. a daily tracking of potential primary republican voters show donald trump with 58% support. 43 points ahead of his closest challenger, florida governor ron desantis. joining us now, senior columnist for "the daily beast," matt lewis. the tracking poll includes different polls, like watching your stocks every day, you take it with something of a grain of salt, but there was the poll yesterday that showed donald trump up 37 points on december

ron desantis. the reboot of ron desantis is not working, number one. number two, these indictments and a potential other indictment are only strengthening donald trump. >> first, thank you for not showing the orioles and bluejays last night. let's hold off on that as long as we can. >> i like that. >> this is the same story, willie. nothing has changed, except i guess donald trump continues to add to his lead. i think the fundamental problem with the reboot is when campaigns reboot, it's about doing things like bringing in different staffers, different advisers. it's about controlling the burn rate. you're spending too much money. these are things that have to do with, you know, campaign infrastructure and logistics and all of that, and that can be important and it can be decisive. in the case of ron desantis versus donald trump, the

fundamental problem is republicans like donald trump. they find him fun. they find him entertaining. and they do not like ron desantis. so i think you have to -- look, if you're in trouble, you have to shake things up. you have to try to reboot. you can't fire the candidate. you can't fire ron desantis. i think at the end of the day, this is what it is. ron desantis cannot beat donald trump. what could happen is that ron desantis could be in the race if something were to happen to donald trump. that's the best case scenario, i think, is that ron desantis is basically a placeholder, waiting for some external event to knock out donald trump, if it happens. >> gene, there's actually a brand-new "new york times"/sienna college poll that dropped a moment ago that shows trump and biden tied at 43%. focusing here, at least for the moment, on the republican field

itself, you know, matt laid it out, this desantis reboot, at least so far, is not working. he is hemorrhaging cash. he's had to fair a bunch of staff. there was an event in new hampshire over the weekend where he offered people to have a beer with him, just $1 to get in the door. 30 people showed up. doesn't speak well of him or the quality of his beer. if it is not ron desantis, who is it? is there anyone else in the republican field who has shown signs of life, that they can threaten trump? >> all the other candidates says, "it's me." >> sure. >> "it can be me." they see desantis flagging. they probably themselves, well, this is why trump's lead is growing. it's not that people love trump more, it's that they like desantis less. given that they like him less, why shouldn't it be me? in that sense, all of this helps

trump because i think it tends to keep more people in this race. you know, a crowded field is good for donald trump. the one person i think we all ought to keep an eye on right now is senator tim scott, who a lot of republicans speak of highly, who seems, not in the recent polls, he's not doing all that well, but among the republican chattering class, he seems to be perhaps with a small arrow floating upwards in terms of his candidacy. we'll have to see if he hangs in there and if some of this, while maybe not trump sentiment, ends up coalescing around tim scott. i don't see anybody else who is making a move. >> matt, if you're thinking about whether these investigations, these indictments are going to hurt donald trump in the long run, again, we're just talking about

the primary. most people believe they're not a benefit in a general election. but if you look at "the new york times"/sienna poll, 71% of republican voters say they should stand behind donald trump through these investigations. exact same number, 71% say trump has not committed serious crimes. think about that for a second when you think about the mar-a-lago documents and potentially something like leading a coup against the united states government. voters believe trump was exercising his right to contest the 2020 election. that's not the kind of support, that's not the kind of depth of support that it seems to me is going to change just if another indictment is added to the soup here. >> i completely agree. there is zero reason to believe that any new information, aside from donald trump suffering a heart attack or something, but that any, you know, legal problems are going to pose any challenge for donald trump when it comes to the republican

primary. it could make them like him more. as you've noted, many trump supporters simply don't believe it. they do not. this goes to the, "i could shoot somebody on fifth avenue and not lose the voters." others make excuses, "oh, that's just the deep state. everybody does it." he is essentially immune from the introduction of any new information, and i also have to add this. aside from that, which i don't know how you overcome that, you know, "the new york times" yesterday, i think it was, had this analysis of the republican electorate. aside from being immune to new information about trump, you know, it really breaks it down into three groups. you have the maga supporters with trump no matter what. that's a third. then you have a third who are in between. they'll vote for trump, but they may be open to someone like ron desantis. then you have another third or

so, a little less, of what you'd call maybe never trumpers. someone like ron desantis, the obvious move for him would have been to try to consolidate the never trumpers and those people in the middle, you know, peel off some trump maga supporters, then consolidate the never trumpers. but the problem is, if you look at this "new york times" piece, it's virtually impossible to do that because these two groups that desantis could potentially have a chance to win over vehemently disagree on almost every issue. so no matter how you look at it, it's impossible to see this as anything but donald trump being, you know, by far, the very, very clear favorite. >> yeah, the numbers are not good at this moment for ron desantis, and they remain strong for donald trump, even on the eve of another likely indictment.

matt lewis, thank you so much. i won't give away the orioles score, except to say, man, they look really good this year. matt's book is "filthy rich politics cashing in on america." meanwhile, in the house of representatives, they're doing donald trump's bidding, going after hunter biden, trying to create a tie to the president of the united states. hunter's former business partner gave testimony yesterday to the house oversight committee. the closed door meeting part of the republican panel's investigation into the biden family's business dealings. dan goldman of new york, devin archer said hunter put his father on speaker with business partners 20 times but they never talked about business. congressman goldman said archer testified that because of pressure from burisma, the company there, hunter gave the impression there was an illusion

of his father. >> the witness stated unequivocally that there is no evidence in his possession or his knowledge that joe biden ever discussed business with hunter biden, joe biden ever did anything on behalf of hunter biden's business interests or otherwise, never changed official policy in any way, shape or form. so then the question becomes, how much longer are we going to go on this fishing expedition? there is no evidence connecting president biden to anything related to hunter biden. we have been told by the republicans repeatedly that this is an investigation to joe biden. there is no evidence that connects joe biden to any of this. and we've now had witness after witness come in, and they have testified to the same thing. >> congressman goldman will be our guest later this morning on "morning joe."

and last night on fox news, the chair of the oversight committee was asked if republicans will be able to prove the allegations, specifically tying joe biden to any of this, the ones they've been talking about for months. >> do you believe that this is now officially the joe biden bribery allegation, and do you believe that you will be able to prove that? >> i sure hope so. i do believe that there's a lot of smoke, and where there's smoke, there's fire. we just heard testimony today. joe biden has lied to the american people. >> he sure hopes so, where there's smoke, there's fire, jackie. for people who haven't been following this closely, has this committee introduced specific evidence that shows president biden, then vice president biden, was working hand in hand with president biden to benefit

financially or otherwise from hunter biden's business dealings? >> at this moment, willie, there is only smoke, and there only seems to be smoke down the line. devin archer was a star witness for the gop. he was someone that comer and gop members on the oversight committee had consistently hyped up as sort of the key piece of evidence that was finally going to do it in for joe biden, proving that joe biden was involved with business deals somehow. what he said yesterday, according to lawmakers who were inside that private, closed door transcript interview, was that hunter biden was simply selling the illusion of his father being involved with some of these business deals, in order to, you know, potentially make more lucrative pitches and sales through some of these people he was doing business with. devin archer is someone who has been close with hunter biden for quite some time now. they went to yale together,

undergrad. as dan goldman described to reporters afterwards, devin explained that when joe biden was on the phone, it was simply, you know, not business related. this is someone who consistently, the descriptions we've seen of biden was simply involved in his son's life in a personal capacity. james comer has yet to show up or turn up any smoking gun here. there's been numerous attempts along the way so far. of course, just a few weeks ago, we were focused on this form from a human confidential informant that chuck grassley, the senator who runs oversight, the senate finance committee, and james comer, as well, they released this form. there was no there there, as well, nothing directly tying joe biden to any of these business deals or this bribery scheme, as comer has promised. this is not going to preclude

republicans from consistently trying to make this argument and create the illusion of some malfeasance being there. >> all right. "the washington post"'s jckie alemany, thank you, as always. good to see you. >> thanks, willie. >> john, this seems to be a lot of smoke and little fire in terms of president biden. hunter biden may have committed crimes. he's in the process now in delaware of going through that plea there. but the thrust of the investigation, the suggestion, and sometimes the explicit suggestion, is that joe biden was leading a crime family, to use their term. we haven't seen any, not one shred, and they've been after this a long time, going after hunter biden and his laptop. still no evidence. we heard from comer himself on "hannity" last night, still no evidence. >> republicans have been candid about saying, "we don't have it yet." speaker mccarthy pushed back against the impeachment inquiry momentum.

he was like, "look, we don't have evidence to go that far." as far as hunter biden goes, there's no doubt, it is clear, even though close to the biden family suggest his behaior was unseemly. it doesn't make it illegal. we also don't know the role then vice president may have played. it seems like, no, they haven't proven he has anything to do with it, that he profited from this at all. maybe he is guilty of turning a blind eye to some of his son's behavior. we should put this in context. this is the time when beau biden, his other son, was ill and dying and passed away. perhaps he wasn't as attentive to what he should have been here, but, again, there's been no evidence, no evidence at all, that he was profiting from this or that either of them committed a crime when it came to this. we hear here from comer and other republicans, it's wishful thinking. they're trying to create a scandal when there is no evidence they have one. >> yeah, they're trying to create a scandal or at least the appearance of a scandal.

the sort of, you know, smokiness of a scandal. just create that atmosphere without actual evidence and without a scandal. it is clear, at least so far, that there is nothing there. you can argue at some point that if hunter biden put president biden on the speakerphone, like 20 times, you could certainly ask whether, at some point, president biden might have said, "hey, quit putting me on speakerphone. aren't you having a business meeting? what is that about?" but the context is that this was a sort of very fraught and sad time for the biden family, and we know how important family is to the president.

do you hang up on your son at any time, but certainly in a moment like that? probably the answer is no. >> all right. we'll see where this goes. so far, not much there, as james comer said. a lot of smoke but no fire yet. still ahead on "morning joe," new analysis on how much donald trump's legal problems are costing his 2024 campaign. it is a big number. plus, the latest on the war in ukraine as moscow reports a second day of drone attacks. we'll be joined by former ukrainian president petro poroshenko. also ahead, president biden decides to keep the headquarters of space command in colorado, angering some lawmakers in alabama. we'll explain when "morning joe" comes right back. for too long, big oil companies

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oh man, what a great city. beautiful sunrise over new york city. yes, friends, it is august the 1st. >> yeah. we made it. >> made it to august. 6:33 in the morning on a tuesday. gene, your latest piece for "the washington post" is titled, "bidenomics was born as a putdown. now, it is a boast." we really do see the white house and the biden campaign leaning into the idea of joe biden bringing the economy back to life. inflation, of course, long was the boogeyman for republicans and a lot of us in the country, all paying higher prices. even that has ticked down. will this be a centerpiece of the biden re-election campaign? >> oh, i think it already is a centerpiece of the re-election campaign. you know, the first use of the term bidenomics that i could find when i was looking for it yesterday was in the "wall street journal," before the 2020

election. it was a dismissive putdown of biden's economics plans, as he had announced them. now, look at the economic numbers. they have all turned in a really favorable direction for president biden. inflation is down. it was down to 3% in june. incomes are rising faster than prices and have been for the last four months. unemployment is still at a 50 year low, 3.6%. stock market is doing well. the fed no longer predicts that we're going to have a recession. in fact, we have robust growth this summer, 2.4% in the last report. so this is all good news for him. instead of, you know -- republicans had hoped that

bidenomics was something they'd be able to attack, particularly on the inflation front. he is leaning into it and attempting to turn what could have been a weakness into a strength and saying, this is working for you. the inflation reduction act is working for you. my theory of building from the middle out instead of the top down is working for you. he got an unlikely assist the other day, of course, from congresswoman marjorie taylor greene, who in a speech compared him to -- what biden is doing to fdr's new deal and to lyndon johnson's great society, which the biden campaign quickly turned into an ad. because, yeah, joe biden is very happy to be compared to roosevelt and johnson in terms of his domestic policies.

if that's the way people think about it, i think he likes his chances. >> yeah, the white house posted those comments from congresswoman taylor green. the president writing, "i approve this message. everything she said is true." john, something that gene mentioned got buried in the news last week, which is the chairman of the fed said, "we've taken the recession off the board for next year," which is not just great news for joe biden but for the country, if that turns out to be true. the gdp is 2.4%. a lot of good economic data. yet, even as recently as yesterday, when you look at polling, his approval rating on the economy is still very, very low, down in the 30s. >> economists have been largely wrong about where this economy has been going. the biden people are not shy in pointing that out. eugene ticked through it, all the good economic numbers. they're leaning in and leaning in hard on the economy. he was in maine on friday talking about that. they just scheduled a western swing next week after the president's vacation this week to talk about the economy, the difference the inflation reduction act is making, particularly connect i

likely rematch with donald trump, which polls suggest we're going to get next year, you know, they feel like trump is a flawed candidate. they like their chances. but they do acknowledge one area where trump has an advantage, perhaps, is talking about the economy. we know trump inflated how good the economy actually was during his presidency pre-covid, but it was strong. he was good at telling that story. senior biden people say, look, we need to talk about the economy now, too, because we know he is going to, and that might be a vulnerability. it is for any incumbent president. you're judged on the economy. they feel like now is the time, almost a year and a half out from the election, to start telling the story. >> any time they can tick through the numbers that gene laid out, it should theoretically be a good day for the president and good day for the country, that things are headed in the right direction. coming up, a conversation about artificial intelligence with a top technology executive. the impact the emerging field could have on almost everything, the economy, culture, and the future of creativity. plus, the city of san francisco takes action against elon musk.

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the company formerly known as twitter as taken down the giant "x" sign atop its headquarters san francisco three days after it went up. the city's department of building inspection said it received dozens of complaints about the sign concerning its structural safety and its brightness, with some residents saying the flashing lights not just annoying, but it made it difficult to sleep because it is flashing into their apartment windows. representatives for "x" said it was put up for an event. the building's owner will be fined, not having proper

permits. the debate over artificial intelligence and the podcast titled "technical optimistic," asking questions like, can a.i. be used for good? will it harm us? how should it be regulated? >> we're all hearing stories about how this technology will make our lives easier and how it'll vastly increase our capabilities in medicine, education and engineering. >> there are some places it could come in super handy, like brain surgery. >> a.i. can efficiently and effectively identify cancer. >> but can a.i. be used in a way that upholds human dignity and keeps our society in tact? >> rafi joins us now. he has led the platform team at twitter, directed uber's self-driving efforts, worked as the top tech executive for the democratic national committee, and currently serves as the cto of emerson collective. while the resume. grate to have you with us, raffi. a.i., we've been hearing about it for years, but it seems to have broken through this year,

in the last few months, with some of the red flags that have gone up from people leaving major companies like google and saying, "watch out for a.i i can speak freely about it now, and it's not good." obviously, there are hugely beneficial uses, but where are you on the balance of the good versus the evil, if you will, of a.i.? >> yeah, good morning. thanks for having me. i mean, look, there's two camps right now. there's a group of people who want to go full steam ahead and use a.i. everywhere and for everything, and there is another group of people who want to take a really big pause. th.ersonally think we can like, we can have the science fiction world where a.i. is touching every part of our lives and making every part of our life better, while also mitigating the harms and the risk, like algorithmic discrimination and others that might show up. we can actually do both. we just need to be better educated to understand the nuances, so we as a society can help guide it. >> it does seem like there's a scramble to kind of put the brakes on, or at least stop and

take a look at the potential damage and the harm it can do. washington, congress has taken this up. are there legislative fixes, though, really, that can kind of rein artificial intelligence in, or is this genie out of the bottle in a way people can't regulate? >> congress was designed to operate slowly and there's only one congressman with a degree in artificial intelligence. we can't rely on that body to make all the decisions, especially in a world where this technology feels like every day is moving as fast as a year. there is not a bad idea, creating a separate agency that is stashed with real talent, create checks and balancebalanc optimizing for user engagement,

money raised. that's not what regular americans need or want. they need a check and balance system. i believe that proposal can specifically create the check and balance, have someone on the side of everyday americans to make sure their interests are taken into account, as well. >> raffi, this seems like it's gotten bipartisan support, that there's some momentum here to put some sort of safeguards in front of a.i. we seem to be growing by the day more alert of some of the potential dangers it poses. give us a sense of some of the more overlooked benefits to a.i. what are some things that could be done here, that congress should make sure should be allowed to happen? >> a.i. is used in every part of our lives today already. we're only just now noticing it because of things like chat gpt and others. look, your voice assistant uses a.i. your mail searching algorithm uses a.i. when you go to google, that uses a.i. there are medical breakthroughs

that use a.i. doctors can scan for cancer tumors way better because of the a.i. recognition systems. our health care, our economy, all the aspects are already being touched by a.i. we want to make sure we can maximize that. look, i've spoken to peel like sal kahn on the podcast who are creating tumors so every kid in america, every kid in the world could have the most custom and best teacher for themselves. we want to live in that world. i want my kid to have the best possible education, the best possible health care. i want a world where a.i. could potentially be helping the climate crisis. but we also need to mitigate these other risks. we need to make sure all races are treated equally by a.i., that the values are societal values and not the values of people that created the systems, on purpose or accidentally. so i want to live in both these worlds, of getting these amazing benefits i just mentioned but just mitigate the downsides at the same time.

>> raffi, how do you see some of the economic implications, the large language models like chat gpt? they get smart but adjusting reams and reams of information that was produced by people, then they regurgitate it. so how do those people who produced the information or the images or whatever, how do they get compensation for making a.i. the i., making it intelligent? >> that's a great question. this is exactly the kinds of things that maybe a new federal agency or others can be helping make sure that we do, is properly attributing those people who trained the systems, proper attributing the data sets that are ingested, and making sure compensation flows. again, these companies operate in this financial ecosystem. that doesn't necessarily prioritize that type of work, but this is exactly where some

checks and balances are needed. this is also the automation versus augmentation debate. do we want a society where a.i. technology is automating away jobs, or do we want to use the tools to make every worker more efficient and better? i want to do the latter. how do we incentivize that development so they're making tools that every single person can be achieving their goals, their dreams, and their aspirations? >> as you say, we just need to find that balance. it doesn't have to be all or nothing. take the benefits of it and look out for some of the dangers. such a fascinating conversation. it's a great voice to have on it. the podcast is "technically optimistic," available wherever you get your podcasts. raffi, thanks for being here. >> thank you. >> gene robinson, our thanks to you, as well. see you soon, my friend. thank you. coming up, thousands of protesters in israel keeping the

pressure on the government there after its controversial judicial overhaul. nbc's raf sanchez joins us on the heels of an interview with prime minister netanyahu, who denies israel is on the path to civil war, and says what is happening with the court system is, quote, necessary. raf's new interview with prime minister netanyahu next on "morning joe." hey bud. wow. what's all this? hawaii was too expensive so i brought it here. you know with priceline you could actually take that trip for less than all this. i made a horrible mistake. ♪ go to your happy price ♪ ♪ priceline ♪

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wnbc. that's chopper 4 flying high over the sty. five minutes to the top of the hour. israel passed a controversial bill to support the government overturning certain actions. nbc news sat down with the man at the center of it all, israeli prime minister netanyahu.

in a wide-ranging interview, our foreign correspondent raf sanchez asked the presume minister about the protests rocking his country and much more. raf joins us live from tel-aviv, israel. good to see you. tell us more about your interview with the prime minister. >> reporter: well, willie, the prime minister gave absolutely no indication of backing down. he said it was worth it to get this legislation through despite the deep divisions it's caused in israeli society. a poll last week found 56% of israelis fear there is a real danger of civil war, and the divisions it's caused in the israeli military, where thousands of reservists have said they will not show up for duty in protest of the legislation. netanyahu told us there's not going to be a civil war. he beliefs when the dust settles, people will accept his argument, that this was a necessary reform to take power out of the hands of unelected judges, put it back into the hands of elected politicians. i can tell you, that is not an argument the protesters are

buying. i also asked him about tensions in the u.s./israel relationship. remember, willie, president biden urged the prime minister not to go ahead with this legislation without consensus. the prime minister pushed ahead anyway. the president has also been critical of netanyahu's decision to include far right politicians in his cabinet. netanyahu told us the relationship has its ups and downs, but it is mainly its ups. willie, one specific part of this interview is leading the news here in israel today, and that is this question of whether later this year the israeli supreme court might strike down this legislation, effectively ruling to preserve its own power, and whether or not netanyahu will abide by that ruling if it doesn't go his way. take a listen. if israel's supreme court strikes down your legislation, will you abide by their ruling? >> i think we have to follow two rules. one is the israeli government abides by the decisions of the supreme court.

at the same time, the supreme court respects the basic laws, which are the closest thing we have to be a constitution. i think we should have -- we should keep both principles, and i hope we do. >> reporter: so you are committing, if the supreme court strikes down this legislation, you will abide by that ruling? >> remember what i said, i hope they don't strike down because i think we should abide by both rules. it's a peculiar thing. in americans terms, it's as though the supreme court, charged with keeping the constitution, would nullify a constitutional amendment as unconstitutional. it sort of turns on itself and doesn't make sense. i hope it doesn't happen. >> reporter: prime minister, with respect, to change the american constitution, it has to be done by consensus, two-thirds of the house, two-thirds of the senate, three quarters of the states. this legislation was not passed by consensus, a simple majority. >> but the supreme court in israel itself said the basic laws that are passed by super

majority is the basis of the constitution. they call it a constitution. every country has its own, quote, constitution, and by the supreme court's own definition, the basic law they're dealing with is part of our constitution. >> reporter: willie, you heard there, i asked him twice, neither time did he definitively say, yes, he'd abide by the supreme court's ruling. to the ears of many israelis, they feel their prime minister is hinting at the possibility of a constitutional crisis if this ruling doesn't go his way. the israeli supreme court, like the american supreme court, does not have enforcement power. it doesn't have police. it doesn't have an army. it just has this longstanding norm that the government respects its rulings. if we get to a point where the prime minister doesn't, israeli democracy really is in uncharted waters. >> as you pressed the prime minister so well there, it will be fascinating to watch if the supreme court does overturn this, then what? nbc's raf sanchez, live from

tel-aviv. well done. thanks so much. watch his full interview, of course, at nbcnews.com. coming up next, a look inside the, quote, mean video operation that swallowed ron desantis' campaign. that's the headline. we'll explain when "morning joe" comes back in onemen. minute.

because it's a war on truth, we have no choice but to wage war on woke. from day one, we're going to rip the politics out of the military, end the woke agenda. woke is an assault on the truth. we made florida the state where woke goes to die. as president, i'll fight the woke in the corporations. i will fight the woke in the schools. i will fight the woke in the halls of congress.

we will never, ever surrender to the woke mob. >> ron desantis has made the war on woke the centerpiece of his presidential campaign, but that platform is not resonating with voters. the florida governor still trailing very badly to donald trump in major polls. we'll dig into the new numbers out this morning and the turmoil inside the desantis campaign in a moment. john, briefly, we were talking about "the new york times" poll. even republican voters, only 24% of them say wokism is the most important thing to them, yet it's what he is campaigning on. >> the governor placed a huge bet on this war on woke, as he just said. he did it in the state of florida. he is trying to take it nationally. republican voters are like, we don't really care. that's not what you should be focusing on. it is one of a number of reasons why his campaign has struggled to get traction. welcome back to "morning joe." it is tuesday, august 1st. we made it to august. joining the conversation, our good friend, msnbc contributor mike barnicle. former msnbc host chris matthews.

former policy director for the 2012 mitt romney presidential campaign and romney's chief policy adviser, lonnie chen. and msnbc host symone sanders townsend. great group for this hour. let's dive in. the grand jury is hearing testimony in jack smith's investigation into former president donald trump for his alleged efforts to overturn the legitimate results of the 2020 election. that grand jury expected to be back in session today. trump posted yesterday on social media he assumes an indictment will be coming, quote, any day now. meanwhile, in the other federal case against trump, the charges against him for his alleged mishandling of classified documents, including nuclear secrets after leaving the white house. well, yesterday, the recently named third defendant in the case, mar-a-lago property manager carlos de oliveira, made his first appearance in a miami courthouse. he was charged with four counts related to his alleged efforts to erase security camera footage

at mar-a-lago. the cameras were monitoring a room with the classified documents were stored. because de oliveira doesn't have a florida-based lawyer, he didn't into a plea. he was released on bond and due back in court august 10th for an arraignment. and a judge in georgia denied another attempt by trump's legal team to stop the investigation by fulton county district attorney fani willis into alleged election interference in the state. this is the second ruling against the trump team in as many weeks. the judge found neither the former trump or another ally squashing the probe had the right to end the investigation. what is the impact on the 2024 presidential election? well, today's morning tracking poll of potential republican voters shows donald trump with 58% support, 43 points ahead of his closest challenger, florida governor ron desantis. that comes on the heels of the

latest survey from "the new york times" and sienna college that shows trump leading desantis by 37 points. 54% to 17% among likely primary voters. in a hypothetical head-to-head matchup, president biden, former president trump tied at 43% in this poll. chris matthews, that's a lot to digest, but the bottom line is, and if you look inside "the new york times" poll, it's that more than 70% of primary republican voters say the investigations into donald trump are politically motivated. the investigations are a witch hunt. they're buying his theory of the case on all this, and they need to stand behind him. clearly, if you look at the polling as one indictment after another is handed down, and one perhaps even today, another federal indictment, it's only making him stronger. again, in the primary, not talking about the general election, but at least in the primary. >> yeah, i think the big development in the poll over the weekend from "the times" is that 75% of the republican party, an

incredible number, 75% say that donald trump had a right to contest the election. >> yeah. >> the results came in from georgia and wisconsin and arizona. they were certified by those states. it's over. he should have conceded the election. instead, he continues to battle on. that refusal of the republican party to acknowledge that this guy has basically blown up our democracy, it's unbelievable. the fact that desantis, he drags him around like a zombie so everybody will attack in the debate this august 23rd, all the other candidates will attack desantis. trump is carrying this guy as his official loser. >> symone, none of this should be surprising to any of us who have been covering donald trump for the last eight years. perceived witch hunts against him, perceived criticism of him that they think come from elites, the media and everywhere else, where in this case is very real according to federal

prosecutors and prosecutors in new york, prosecutor in fulton county, that they just make him stronger. is there anything on the horizon that derails this man from becoming the nominee? >> look, i think there are the political ramifications of these indictments, and then there are the legal ramifications. politically, republican voters don't seem to care about the indictments. they do think -- they've been hearing about this for a while from donald trump, "they're coming to get me. they're coming to get you. they can do it to me, they can do it to you." well, there is the justice system in america. there are some things that donald trump is in real, deep legal trouble, and perhaps the legal ramifications may smash into and override the political bump he's gotten. it remains to be seen. >> to be clear, the legal ramifications are very serious, but the question, lonnie, this has to be disorienting to you, as someone who came up -- >> a little bit. >> -- in conservative politics,

worked on the romney campaign. the political world in the last decade has been turned upside down. is there anything? i mean, is it wish casting to say, maybe it's not desantis, maybe someone else will emerge, maybe candidate x or y can fill the never trump void? what stands in his way of being the nominee? >> the reality is that a lot of this will take place once primaries start to go on, right? when iowa happens, new hampshire happens, the numbers are going to shift a little bit. are they going to shift enough to overcome 54 to 17? that i don't know. the challenge for governor desantis is others and this, if you look at the attributes on which voters traditionally make decisions in primaries, is this person a strong leader? can he get things done? former president trump out-polls his opponents by wide margins. it is not as though there are attributes other candidates have that the former president doesn't have that voters are looking for.

that's the challenge for the others candidates right now. i think what we're going to see, in all likelihood, are these numbers will stay as they are right now until we get very, very close to iowa. once we start to see shifting potentially in state polls, then the national polls reflect that. but i wouldn't expect to see a whole lot different between now and mid-december. >> i will say, this is why the debate stage is going to be very important for every candidate that's not donald trump. because, you know, some people say, debates don't matter. this will be the biggest stages these candidates will have, the largest number of eyeballs, and it can make a difference in how potential voters feel about their candidates. >> john, we got a window into what the debate might look like in iowa over the weekend, when will hurd was the only man to criticize donald trump and was just booed resoundingly. >> basically booed off the stage. >> yeah. >> if trump isn't there, i think governor desantis, i think the other candidates will smell blood. i think he will be the target of most attacks, and i think that could continue his downward slide. mike, let's talk about the other

"times"/sienna poll, the one about president biden and donald trump, which has them dead even. good news for biden in the poll. a year ago, there were questions among democrats, whether they wanted him to be the standard bearer. now, many are comfortable with him for re-election. there are warning signs, too. biden's support over trump among independents was 13% in 2020, and now it's down to 5%. obviously, battleground states will be what decides this. we haven't seen state polling yet. the michigans, wisconsins, pennsylvanias, georgias and alike. the case is all these indictments will hurt trump, if not in the primaries but will in the general, but per that poll, they're not. >> when is the election? >> ways off, mike. >> i wouldn't worry about it if i were joe biden right now. it's of concern, certainly, but i wouldn't be worrying about it. i'd worry about the larger issue we've been assessing this morning. we are on the edge of a cliff of

democracy. if we go over, we'll find out within the next 14 months. we have witnessed now for years and years out in the stump, the greatest political showman of our time, maybe of any time, donald j. trump. he's also a deeply dangerous national security threat. that's who he is. we've failed to confront that reality. we've failed to ask people, like general kelly, general mattis, mitch mcconnell, a host of republicans, "step up to the plate. step up to the plate." i don't know about you, chris, but this is deeply depressing at a certain level, that not a single legitimate republican can stand up and confront this deeply dangerous narcissist who thinks it's great to get out every day and be so negative about this country. if you listen to him on the stump, if you listen to his

speeches, his 90-minute speeches, they are deeply, deeply divisive, in addition to being horribly negative about the immediate future of this country. >> well, it's scary because i think the fact that one political party has buckled to him, as you say, even his top leaders, even the top staff people at the white house, they're unwilling to stand up publicly and take the guy on. i look at the candidates challenging him, supposedly challenging him. they're not really challenging him. they're not saying, "this guy is unacceptable as leader of the republican party or candidate for president." they're not willing to state it. even desantis, i'm convinced that trump has figured out that he can carry the zombie around with him, make sure he always attacks desantis, he makes sure he makes desantis his number web attacker so all the other republican candidates will attack desantis in the august 23rd debate. trump won't go to the debate. he'll let desantis be his buffer. the other thing is, the democrats talk about the black

vote falling off or not being so enthusiastic about biden, but there's nothing breaking on the republican side. it's all solid trump. i think it's in pennsylvania, we do have a poll in pennsylvania that has him up a point. 80% of white, non-college people, men, are already for trump. i mean, the numbers are amazing. they're not sitting around reading "the new york times," the review of books, anything like that. they like trump because he is a victim like they are. he was once a champion to opposition to immigration. he is now the victim. he is them. mike, you're right, it is an incredible political development, that a man made himself the symbol of the average voter. that's what he is to them. he is fdr to them. it's frightening because he is trying to take down the constitution and isn't saying so. it is dramatically awful. >> chris, you're right. this isn't about politics. this is a movement, someone they

believe speaks for them, fights for them. they don't care about the indictments. they don't believe them, frankly, based on their media bubbles. if you look from the other side of it at the economy and things -- the direction things are going for this white house, and they're leaning into the idea of bidenomics, economic data, we were just talking about the federal reserve chairman yesterday, pulling the idea of a recession off the table, at least that projection. things headed in the right direction, chris. if you look at the numbers from "the new york times" and across polling, president biden's numbers on the economy is still very low. if he hits these messages again and again and stays focused on the economy, can he convince people? can he show them, "look, i know prices are too high still, they have been, but they are coming down. things we're doing are working." can that be a compelling argument for re-election? >> the facts are on the table. wages are going up pretty well. they're at least keeping up with inflation. in the retail business, you meet people who are working, probably

wouldn't have gotten a job five years ago. we're putting a lot of pressure on the labor market. they get people to work, which is a wonderful goal. taking marginal people and putting them to work. this is what a liberal would want to do in any case. get them working. get them proud of themselves. this should be helping. then we're hearing this despair, this lack of enthusiasm. i want to point something out, by the way. all this talk about biden's son, hunter, the last couple days, and they're going to keep talking about it. does anybody realize that jared and ivanka made $640 million during their time in the white house while they were wearing their white house badges around the world and bringing abrahamic accords, all the countries together? all the time, they were making zillions of dollars with the president's badge on them. now saying this new thing doesn't smell right? wait a minute, what happened to the four years before? what happened during all that time? >> i know, some people made a lot of money. that's what happened during all that time. >> with their badges on.

>> yeah, absolutely. >> white house badges. >> not a bad way, no heavy lifting. lonnie, we're talking about the economy. part of the problem, do you think with the democrats, specifically the matchup of president biden versus donald trump, you see it's 43/43 right now, which is ridiculous, but that's what it is. what about the failure of so many people on both sides of the aisle, republican and democrat, who fail to recognize one of the true economic realities in this country? this still remains for the vast majority of people a paycheck to paycheck economy. >> yeah. >> democrats talk about it as if it is, you know, "things are great. the price of bananas came down last week. yts. >> right. there is a mismatch between the statistics and how people feel about the economy. the statistics matter less than how people feel. almost 80% cannot rate this economy well. that should be a significantly worrying number for the

president, for the president's re-election campaign. further challenge is a lot of this is out of the president's hands. it is in the federal reserve bank's hands. what the federal reserve bank does the next six months is largely going to dictate the strength or weakness of the economy as we go to the summer and fall of next year, the election year. that is the challenge. the other issue is a lot of americans are feeling pressure when it comes to where the economy is headed. there was a segment on artificial intelligence in the previous hour. a lot of americans are freaked out by this. they say, is that my job next, my situation next? it's not just how they feel about the economy now. it is how about feel about the economy going forward. those concerns, i think, are animating a lot of the anxiety you're seeing about the economy right now. >> symone, having worked on presidential campaigns, you know you can't tell voters how to feel. "look, the numbers are good. you have to feel good about how i'm handling the economy." >> you have to read the tea leaves and listen to the people at the barbershops and beauty shops. to mike's point, that's why

you've seen biden going around the country giving the bidenomics speeches. he said on thursday, i think, "i'm not here to gloat about the economy," and that's not a line i've heard. that's a shoutout to exactly what lonnie is talking about. while the numbers look great, people don't necessarily feel that in their communities. they need to understand that the president, that the vice president, that the white house understands that, and they're doing things to try to make their lives better. that's why you've seen the vice president travel around, talk about broadband internet access. it's a big deal, not having to sit in the mcdonald's parking lot. but is everyone in the democratic apparatus elevating the message in the same accessible way? the answer is no. >> we'll see. this is a message they'll lean into. if inflation come continues tow the dynamics change the next few

months. senior aides to the desantis campaign oversaw the strategy of sending incendiary videos to staff. the meme-filled videos originated from a desantis campaign private chat channel called war room creative ideas. it contained two high-ranking campaign staffers. two videos in the group chat include an anti-trump video that featured a fascism symbol, and another attacked the former president for his past comments supporting lgbtq plus rights. remember that bizarre video. according to screenshots obtained by semaphore, members of the chat praised the video that contained a fascist symbol with the campaign's director of research saying, quote, this belongs in the smithsonian. that staffer has since been let go amid cuts to the campaign staff. in another exchange, the group discussed how to get out this clip of trump at a fox news town hall, talking about chinese president xi jinping without it

getting back to them. >> if president xi, central casting. when i say he is brilliant, everybody says, that's terrible. he runs 1.4 billion people with an iron fist. smart, brilliant, everything, perfect. there is nobody in hollywood like this guy. >> wow. desantis campaign declined to answer semafor's questions about overseeing the videos and whether desantis directed any changes in the campaign in response to the firestorm around them. joining us now is dave wigle, who covers poll fitics for sema and broke the reporting on the campaign. this is fascinating. the one video, anti-lgbtq was bizarre, in addition to being homophobic. then we learned, maybe it came from the campaign who tried to make it appear it was coming from a third party and they were amplifying it. how did this war room work exactly? >> you pointed out that kyle

lamb, one staffer, was let go. a lot were people who were let go. there was a well covered pivot last week, where the campaign let 38 people go, and a lot were on this side, trying to separate their conservative base of the party from trump by pointing out things that he had not achieved in office, whether it was building the wall, or in the case of the lgbt video, saying he was responsible for the rise of of gender ideology and desantis would stop it, using the internet. using memes. using the american psycho pictures. a bunch of stuff that's probably confusing to your iowa voter who is 67 years old and logs on only if they have to. they were creating some of this stuff, not taking credit for it, boosting stuff that it became a

backlash for them, became a problem for them. the goal was making desantis look like how donald trump looked to republicans in 2016, trying to recreate the meme magic. we're going to break through the mainstream media filter and get to the real things people are thinking about. desantis is the hard core conservative who owns the libs. it didn't work the way they expected it to. proof of that the both the polling and the fact that a lot of people in the discussions trying to make this trend are gone. >> dave, one video was the lgbt symbol, as willie mentioned, another was a symbol of nazi germany. you know, let's connect this to how we talked at the top of the hour, about how desantis' war on woke, which he is proud of, isn't resonating. polling suggests republicans don't care much about it. they're going to -- the criticism of the campaign has been they're talking to a very, very small slice of the

electorate. are you seeing any signs they've been able to grow that or are trying to change it? >> they have a different problem. if you ask separate questions about things that they can fit under the woke umbrella, if you ask republican voters -- i was in iowa this week with desantis and the rest of the field. asked him about teaching gender fluidity in schools, asking about abortion rights, asked about budlight. you're going to find most republican voters agreeing with the positions desantis does, but they don't see donald trump as an enemy on the issues. they don't need -- and donald trump, this is the benefit of having the presidency, he doesn't need to jump onto every controversy to be the loudest republican. desantis needs to try harder to get in front of them. desantis is not getting the credit from republican voters for things like this fight with disney in florida, which elements of that, republicans agree with. why is this company running this content we don't feel comfortable showing our kids?

they're not convinced that donald trump, if he is president, would not act the same way. it's a hill that the desantis campaign, i think, has been surprised by the height of. he has this record in florida of every time there is, whether it's a corporation using esg practices, whether it is a college using diversity equity and inclusion, desantis is on there attacking it, but if you look at the cross tabs in "the new york times" poll, most republican voters who don't like that stuff think that donald trump is going to act on it if he is elected. he kind of did. his administration, the 1776 project, some of the cultural fights he took on, he was on there. he just wasn't as early as desantis. it hasn't been a clear delineation for the campaign to create. >> the chat rooms having third parties making videos, making it look like it's from a third party though they directed them, are those still operating? are they still doing that? >> that channel was shut down. like i said, some of the people who were part of it are gone.

the rapid response director who is very, i'd say, pugnacious spokesperson for the governor, still in the role for the campaign, but they are not prioritizing these fights with donald trump. there were super pac ads in iowa when this was going on a week and a half ago with rainbow flags, presenting donald trump as a pro-trans candidate. that's faded as the governor focused more on the economy. the panel was talking about this before, the republican party's base is so satisfied with donald trump and convinced that he is under attack because he is effective, that when desantis says, "i've been more effective in florida," it doesn't scam them. it was said the other day, "i wish the guy would get indicted." you need proof that the guy is a threat to the left, that they are as worried about him as we are about trump.

they see him as they do trump. the way this gets communicated back to the base, it is different the way democrats think. democrats in the last primary went for joe biden because they said, who is somebody who is unthreatening to moderates, who can win back the guy in michigan who didn't like hillary clinton? the way the republican electorate is thinking, especially in iowa, "we're confident we can beat joe biden. who is they most afraid of? who will dismantle the left?" because donald trump is in legal trouble and ron desantis isn't, they believe donald trump is the guy who can pull that off. >> by the way, should point out, desantis as recently as yesterday on fox news, was defending the lgbtq video, saying it was based on donald trump's record. it is legitimate criticism, but the idea that i was pushing it out there, he said, "no, it was my rapid response team." walking the line, having it both ways. dave wigle, fascinating report. thanks for bringing it to us. appreciate it. lonnie, what is your assessment? you've been in republican politics a long time.

we hear about the reboot, the reorganization of ron desantis' campaign? he seems to be narrow casting, talking about esg and dei, which are worthy of discussion but not perhaps as salient issues to a broad swath of americans, as we may think so. >> i mean, his big challenge is that i think republican primary voters like ron desantis, but they love donald trump. >> yeah. >> and so the challenge is how do you bridge the gap? i'm not sure dei and woke, i mean, these are themes clearly that do sit at the core of ron desantis' campaign. he is comfortable talking about him. on the stump, he tends to return to those themes on any given issue. that tells you that's where his comfort level is. it resonates, but i'm not sure it resonates at the level he needs it to in order to overcome that gap, in terms of how people feel, viscerally feel about donald trump versus him. that's his biggest challenge. >> you can hear, symone, talking

privately to republicans who don't love donald trump and for hoping for someone else to ride in and give them somewhere else to go, six months ago, it was ron desantis. he won by 20 points. now, they go, ugh, i guess it's not desantis. >> look, i think a lot of donors hyped the desantis belief that he could be a good national candidate. the things he did in florida have proven not to be popular with independent voters, the people you need to win a general election. i have never thought ron desantis was a good national candidate. you see him on the campaign trail, on the stump. the man is uncomfortable. he does not look like he enjoys being in iowa at the fairs, eating the corn dogs. he's telling children, "looks like a lot of sugar." like, what are you doing? he's not run a serious campaign about running for president. now, the bus tour, i want to note, ron desantis is on a bus tour. 99 counties in iowa. saying they're going to all 99

counties. it's a good strategy, perhaps they should have done it at the beginning, but i don't think he is a good candidate. >> chris, take us inside the philly suburbs you know so well. what's the feeling right now? 15 months out, the conventional wisdom has been that, boy, all these indictments, the overturning of roe versus wade, gun violence, as you go down the line here, the abortion issue obviously has been so salient, and we saw it in the midterms, as well. what is the feeling of an independent voter right now in bucks county about a trump/biden matchup? >> well, they're going to think about it. i think the strongest thing going right now is that on abortion, this is the first presidential election where people have a chance to react to the dobbs decision. they're going to be very strong on that. i think that all the -- if you look at this desantis challenge, it's simple for trump. all he has to do, and this is an odd thing to say, just run the "access hollywood" tape all day long. it's the craziest thing in the world, but donald trump is not woke. nobody would think he is woke.

the "access hollywood," the e. jean carroll success in her civil case, all this points to a guy who is not woke. all he has to do is be awful. just be awful. be the worst candidate in the world, and he can beat desantis. i think in terms of the general election, it'll be tricky. chester county and delaware county and monomontgomery count will be for biden but not enthusiastically. trump people are all enthusiastic, all gung-ho for him. they're rock solid. it's going to be close. in the quinnipiac poll, pennsylvania is one point for trump. as i said earlier, 80% of non-college white guys are all for trump. these are strong statistics. we're going to see, i think it'll be close. erie, where trump won successfully in 2016, looks to me like a very close race in pennsylvania and also in georgia. i think the two states that will probably decide this election co

close to call and could go the wrong way. >> chris matthews coins a new campaign slogan for 2024, "be awful." thanks so much. >> at least to beat desantis. >> i guess. we'll see. thanks so much, chris. great to see you always. lahnee, symone sanders townsend, thank you. symo symone, we'll be watching your show on msnbc. ahead, james comer is pressed on whether he will be able to prove allegations that president biden took part in a bribery scheme. he did not appear terribly confident about that. we'll talk to democratic congressman and committee member dan goldman about that. also ahead, a look at the life and career of paul reubens, known for his alter ego peewee herman. we'll remember the actor and comedian who died yesterday. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. makers of the world's comfiest wireless bras.

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today, for the first time in more than a year, the united states will take over as head to the united nations. the month-long tenure will be used to address food insecurity and human rights. ambassador thomas-greenfield, thank you for joining us. >> great to be here. >> what does it mean for the united states to have the presidency, the head seat at the table on the security council? >> it's a rotating seat. as the president of the security council, you get to set the agenda for the month. you preside over the council's actions during that month, and you are really in the hot seat. >> the elephant in the room, as we were just discussing, is that russia also sits at that table. >> they do. >> permanent member of the security council. for the last, let's call it year and a half, how has that -- and you do, you sit, discuss issues

and go at it. what is it like sitting across the table? >> we're adversaries. it can sometimes be very tense. russia vetoed a resolution that provided for food assistance across the border into syria against the will of 13 other council members. so the tensions can be seen when we're sitting across the table from each other, but there are times when we can come together in consensus. we voted on a haiti resolution recently in which we all supported. >> so, madame ambassador, as the ancient saying goes, someday, this war will be over. >> yes. >> but in the interim, russia has virtually destroyed a country, ukraine. destroyed it. in addition to that, they have now begun attacking odesa, an

important port that gets food and grain out to other countries. specifically, i want to talk about the continent of africa. >> yes. >> which is littered with hungry people, a vastly young population. you don't have to be a genius to know where the immigration flow is going to come from. it's already begun, and it is going to overwhelm europe at least. what is the u.n. doing about something that everyone knows is coming? >> the u.n. has called a very, very strong appeal to the world, which we are supporting, to continue to support the needs of more than 700 million people who go to bed hungry every single night. that's why i have, for the third time, my third presidency, brought food insecurity to the top of the agenda. we are the largest donor, about

40% of the world's food program that provides humanitarian assistance, we provide 40% of that. we're supporting the humanitarian actions of the u.n. high commissioner for refugees. they have the responsibility for protecting individuals. but russia's unprovoked war against ukraine has exacerbated a situation that has already had an impact on the world. we are calling them out for it. we're asking the world to condemn their actions, their attacks on odesa are unacceptable. attacks on the grain infrastructure of ukraine, the grain infrastructure that provides needed food assistance to africa and the middle east, as well as elsewhere in the world. >> madame ambassador, that's obviously a piece of the food insecurity priority, but your other is about human rights. it's one thing to call out to syria and north korea, but what's the message going to be

during your presidency about human rights issues with the uighurs and others? >> china heard our message, and china will continue to hear the message of concern. how they treat the uighur population. they've been very, very vocal, clear on the security council, and we will continue to raise that issue. >> ambassador linda thomas-greenfield, president for this month of the united nations security council, thanks for being here today. we appreciate it. >> thank you very much. house republicans continue their search for any proof at all tying president joe biden to his son hunter's business dealings, but the latest witness fails to provide new evidence. congressman dan goldman of new york was in yesterday's closed door meeting, and he joins us next on "morning joe." ...to workouts... ...and new adventures. you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis

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do you believe that this is now officially the joe biden

bribery allegation, and do you believe that you will be able to prove that? jim comer. >> i sure hope so. i do believe that there's a lot of smoke, and where there's smoke, there's fire. we just heard testimony -- >> all right. >> -- today that -- >> jim. >> -- joe biden lied to the american people. >> jim jordan, do you believe that? do you believe the doj has been helping to cover it up? >> sure looks that way. joe biden said he was not involved. there were two dinners in d.c. one, as you pointed out, where joe biden was there for the entire dinner, both times. one of them had mrs. batterina, wealthier woman in russia. that's a different story from what he's been telling us. >> russian ballerinas, playing it off with the music. head of the judiciary committee, jim jordan, and head of the

oversight, james comer, on fox news saying they have more evidence, not shown, that biden was involved in his son's dealings. there was a closed door interview with hunter biden's former business partner, devin archer. archer testified hunter would put his father on the phone in front of business associates, but they, quote, never once spoke about any business dealings. now, republicans are using this to say joe biden was the, quote, brand his son was selling around the world. joining us now, democratic congressman dan goldman of new york, a member of the oversight committee and a part of yesterday's closed door meeting. congressman, great to have you here. >> good to be here. >> help us understand who archer is what he did and didn't say in the meeting. >> it was hunter biden's business partner from 2013 to 2016, and he was most notably on the board of burisma with hunter biden. what he testified to yesterday completely absolves joe biden of

any involvement in hunter biden's business world. notwithstanding whatever alleged smoke chairman comer says there is, the witness testimony was very clear. that joe biden was not involved in any of their business dealings. joe biden got no benefit. joe biden did not change any of his actions for the benefit of his son in any way, shape or form. that hunter may have, quote, promoted the illusion of influence on his father, but the witness was very clear, it was an illusion. there was no actual influence. what the evidence has shown in this entire investigation, and we keep getting witness after witness who is supposed to be the star witness showing joe biden's connection, is the only evidences that joe biden's official actions ran counter to hunter biden's interests. because this witness said that

burisma believed they had the corrupt prosecutor general, and i quote what the witness said, "under control," and they did not want him to be fired because that might mean burisma and their president might get investigated. yet, that's what joe biden advocated. that's the only evidence at all of joe biden's connection in any way, shape or form to hunter biden's business interests. it begs the question, hunter biden has been investigated by the department of justice, by the trump-appointed u.s. attorney for five years. including all of the foreign business accounts, foreign bank records, violations, all that stuff. that's the department of justice's job. congress' job is not to investigate a private citizen. congress' job is oversight, and there must be some legislative purpose. that has to connect to joe biden. there is simply no connection. >> as you said, and we've said many times on this show, there's

just been no evidence. they've been given a ton of opportunities. james comer on "hannity," "what's the evidence?" pleading with him, "show me something." they say there's smoke, by it's been a while now. at least 20 times, there was a business deal where he so happened to call up the vice president of the united states and suggest, "look, i'm connected to people in high places, you want me on this deal"? >> hunter biden has been open about that, that he certainly used his last name to benefit his own business interest. the question, though, is not whether hunter biden did anything. the question is whether he did have any influence or did have any access, and whether the president did anything to benefit hunter. what was clear in the testimony yesterday is that there were many instances where hunter biden tried to get, quote, credit for something that his

father did completely independent. the key here is that they never discussed business. they said hello. it was, you know, greetings, niceties, salutations, small talk. it was never involved with business. even devin involved with business. even devon archer said joe biden wouldn't have known what hunter biden was doing and wasn't interested and never discussed it. not only was there no evidence connecting joe biden, but the allegations that joe biden lied are wrong as well. he didn't discuss hunter's business dealings. >> just because it's a source of so much smoke, could you tell us these phone calls that are such a matter of discussion yesterday? what were they about? what did joe biden say in the conversations? walk us through what happened. >> let's put this into context.

beau biden got very sick in 2015. he died in 2015. it was right in the middle when devon archer had his business dealings with hunter biden. at that point joe biden and hunter biden began to speak every day because they were devastated by beau's death. the witness testified over his ten-year relationship with hunter biden there may be approximately 20 times when in one of those conversations, hunter biden would put his father at a dinner, not a business meeting, at a dinner and would ask his father to say hello who was at the table. that was essentially the extent of it. it was unclear and the witness testified -- it's not me saying this. the witness testified that a lot of times, most of the time joe didn't even know who was at the dinner table. this was simply -- this may have

been hunter's effort to say, hey, this is the vice president, this is my dad, but the critical part here for congress -- that's what we have to make sure we understand -- is that joe biden was doing nothing to benefit his son. >> congressman, you used the word illusion a couple minutes ago. congressman comer appears to frame up the time period of 2013 through 2016, 2017, at which point hunter biden is alleged to have taken money from ukraine and other countries where he was trying to do business and that's the source of some charges, that he failed to register with the state department. >> no. the charges are not that -- he has not been charged with that. >> i know. if he were to be charged by this committee or justice department,

isn't the statute of limitations five years? wouldn't it be over with? >> it's possible. this was a five-year investigation. at some point they would have been able to charge if that were the case. we saw an email from the hard drive. the witness was unable to authenticate it. in the email hunter biden made it very clear in his role with burisma, that he was on the board, that he could not violate flora and he hired attorneys. he hired a lobbying firm. he was very clear that he did not -- the department of justice investigated that. i don't know what they found. they didn't charge him. that's just not congress' role. congress' role is not to investigate a private role for a violation. congress' role is oversight over the president and the executive

branch. they've demonstrated no connection to the president. this investigation is now very clearly a complete fishing expedition that has no basis, no basis in fact to continue with it and every witness they bring in continues to confirm that joe biden had nothing to do with it. it begs the question, why are we still doing this? why are we wasting tax payer money on this fishing expedition where there's no basis for congress to be involved? the department of justice can do what it wants. that's not congress' role. >> have they tracked down the fugitive star witness who is a double agent for china and an arm's dealer? >> surprisingly we haven't heard much about him since it became clear he was indicted for making false statement, being an agent of china and being on the lam.

>> what about the biden bribery tapes we heard about? >> the witness debunked those allegations. all the money hunter biden got from burisma went through their joint company and he said there was no bribe of hunter or joe. >> congressman dan goldman of new york, congressman, good to see you. thank you. >> thank you. the white house is going all in on the term bidenomics. meanwhile, we'll go through the new numbers of a major national poll straight ahead on "morning joe."

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off the post. that's incredible. the world cup almost ended right there for the u.s. >> that is how close just a little while ago the u.s. women's national team came to being eliminated from the world cup. hits the post right there. because portugal's shot just missed outside, the united states team is able to play to a draw and advance to the knock-out round. the team moves on and will

likely face the winners of group g. it could be sweden. welcome to "morning joe." it's tuesday, august 1st. we've been watching this tournament. last two games draws for the united states. the united states is on to the knock-out round. man, just by the skin of their teeth. >> they were inches away from their tournament being over. the u.s. is two-time defending champions. this is an historic run by the squad. it's a bit of a transition year. it's the last gasp from some of the stalwarts we've gotten to know. there's a young and impressive group of new players coming through. at times it's been an uneasy mix. they haven't looked really good so far. they only beat vietnam 7-0 when the expectations were more.

if this is a couple inches to the left, they go home. they're fortunate to advance here. they have a couple days off. hopefully they get things going in the right direction. >> two-time defending champions, looking for a three-peat. they're on to the knock-out round and it's an elimination game. with us investigative reporter for "the washington post" and eugene robinson. let's start -- tell me if you heard this before -- we're on grand jury watch. special counsel jack smith's investigation into former president trump for his efforts to overturn the legitimate results of the 2020 election are expected to return today. donald trump indicated he

received a target letter. the letter suggests the former president could face charges of depriving voters their rights, conspiracy to defraud the united states and witness tampering. trump posted yesterday on social media he assumes an indictment will be coming, quote, any day now. we've all been assuming that for a week and a half. we told our viewers that the grand jury meets tuesdays and thursdays. we're at another tuesday. where's your take on where things stand right now? >> i'm reticent to make any predictions. last week we predicted the indictment would be coming done. instead we got a superseding indictment on the classified documents case where a third employee, carlos de oliveira was

charged. this week we are expecting finally the indictment to come down from the justice department on donald trump for the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol and all the efforts ahead of january 6th and the aftermath of trying to overturn the results of the election. the grand jury does meet today. we'll all be on lookout. i'm sure there are tons of reporters outside the courthouse in d.c. right now. of course, this is a waiting game. anything is possible. we have been waiting after all for over a year now. >> eugene, we talk about some new polling that shows the impact the indictments are having on donald trump, which is to say working to his advantage. because of the target letter it's fair to say that it's a matter of time here, this

indictment around the january 6th and the 2020 election case. >> yeah, it is a matter of time. that's pretty clear. we just don't know about jack smith. we have seen that he is willing, for example, in the documents case he filed a superseding indictment that included new charges and a new person. even if we think there might be a few loose ends that he's still trying to tie out here in washington on the january 6th case, it's -- that doesn't necessarily mean that he's not ready to indict given what he has now and then perhaps, if there's still a few more people he needs to hear from or some more business he wants to take care of, he could do a superseding indictment. we really just don't know when this is going to happen, but i think we're pretty confident it is going to happen given the target letter.

>> trump posted on truth social it's probably coming any day now. he's been a pretty reliable narrator where he's been revealing the target letters and so on. as we've been saying throughout the process, willie, when it goes to court, this might be the most difficult case to prove because there's so many different pieces of it, but it's also the most important. many feel it's vital this charge come out. it's beyond january 6th. it's also the efforts to overturn the election. >> absolutely. while we wait for that potential indictment, in the other federal case against donald trump, the charges against him for mishandling classified documents, including nuclear secrets, the third defendant in the case mar-a-lago property manager carlos de oliveira made

his first appearance in a miami court. he was charged with efforts to erase security cameras at mar-a-lago. that's according to prosecutors. the order to destroy the footage came from trump directly and was given to oliveira and walt nauta. because of all this going on, let's remind carlos de oliveira is the property manager at mar-a-lago and it was suggested he was ordered by donald trump, according to prosecutors, to find the tape, delete the tape that could show security footage of people moving classified

documents and that donald trump checked in on him to make sure he was still good, still loyal, you're still on our side, you're not going to flip. what did we learn yesterday from that hearing and how central a figure might carlos de oliveira be in the case? >> the appearance yesterday was rather routine. we learned he has not secured a lawyer. that means his arraignment will have to be delayed until that happens. it builds in the possibility of more delay in the trial day, the may 20th trial date. the more time it takes for him to get a lawyer, they'll ask for more time. how important is he? he's very important. he adds to this dimension of obstruction of justice and that is after all what makes this case so different from other cases involving inadvertent retention of classified documents. the case with mike pence, the case with joe biden where they

alerted the discoveries and returned materials. this shows a deliberate effort to cover up the movement of boxes which was part of the effort after donald trump was engaged with the government over the return of the documents. instead of returning them, he reviewed them all. the movement of boxes was captured on video. he's a key witness because he pulls all that together. >> another new figure introduced in the superseding indictment is trump employee number four. cnn is reporting he was the i.t. working with carlos de oliveira. he came in and said i need you to erase the security videos and he said, i can't do that. doesn't look like he was charged with anything. could it be possible he's cooperating with the government?

>> that could be the case. the word cooperating often means someone who has criminal exposure and has agreed in exchanging information they will get a lenient sentence or not be charged. it appears employee number four will not be charged at all because he's not named in the indictment. he did what you would hope a person would do, which is decline to engage in obstruction of justice. we focused on people that have allegedly violated the law in the form of walt nauta and carlos de oliveira, but there are other employees who did the right thing and have not complied and appears they have testified at the grand jury. we know from their testimony about some of these facts. i think employee number four could be a key witness. >> he did receive a target

letter, but not charged. we covered the two federal cases against donald trump. let's more to georgia where a judge has denied another attempt by former president trump's legal team to stop the allegation by fani willis. this is the second ruling against the trump team in as many weeks. a third petition to the court is scheduled for an august 10th hearing. the judge found neither the former president near one of his allies had the legal standing to squash the investigation. in an interview, willis confirmed her probe is in the final stages, saying, quote, we're ready to go. if you read this ruling of the judge, it's pretty forceful, a smackdown, forgive the term, from the judge saying you're gumming up the system. it will move on. just like the supreme court did

in georgia telling trump's legal team, this case is going forward. >> yes. i mean, until you're charged with a crime, you don't have any standing to say, i can't be charged with a crime. we don't know what the indictment might allege, if anything. the time to attack motions or the validity of a grand jury or the process is after charges are filed. i imagine trump will file many of those motions afterwards. the idea you can do it prematurely, before you've seen what charges are there, it's not right. i think most legal experts expected this ruling. what's valuable is the ruling came now so there's no uncertainty for fani willis to go forward. the last is her recusal from the case. i don't expect that will be granted. even if for some reason it does, there will be some assistant who is ready to go forward. this case is going forward one

way or the other. >> fani willis, the d.a., said august and we're in august. barbara, before we let you go, you had recorded and were planning to watch the women's soccer match. we just spoiled it for you. please accept our apologies. i know you're a big fan. can the team turn it around here in the knock-out round? >> oh, yeah, i think so. we had some early hesitations, but i'll be wearing my megan rapinoe jersey. she's the secret weapon. >> i agree. i think they'll turn it around. sorry we ruined it for you. thank you as always. great to see you. today's new morning consult poll shows -- ready for this -- donald trump with 58% support, 43 points ahead of his closest

challenger florida governor ron desantis. joining us now matt lewis. the tracking poll includes a bunch of different polls. it's like watching your stocks every day. there was a poll yesterday that showed donald trump up 37 points on ron desantis. it appears the reboot of ron desantis is not working and these indictments are only strengthening donald trump. >> thank you for now showing any clips of the orioles/blue jays last night. this is the same story, willie. i mean, it just -- nothing has changed except donald trump continues to add to his lead. i think the fundamental problem with the reboot is, when campaigns reboot, it's about doing things like bringing in different staffers, different

advisers. it's about controlling the burn rate. you're spending too much money. these are things that have to do with campaign infrastructure and logistics. all of that -- that can be important and it can be decisive. in the case of ron desantis versus donald trump, the fundamental problem is republicans like donald trump. they find him fun. they find him entertaining and they do not like ron desantis. so, i think you have to -- look, if you're in trouble, you have to shake things up. you have to try to reboot. you can't fire the candidate. you can't fire ron desantis. at the end of the day, this is what it is. ron desantis cannot beat donald trump. what could happen is that ron desantis could be in the race if something were to happen to donald trump. that's the best case scenario i think, is that ron desantis is basically a place holder waiting

for some external event to knock out donald trump, if it happens. >> gene, there's a brand new "new york times" that shows trump and biden tied at 43%. focusing on the republican field itself, matt laid it out. this desantis reboot so far is not working. he's hemorrhaging cash. he had to fire a bunch of staff. there was an event in new hampshire where he offered people to have a beer with him for $1. only 30 people showed up. if it's not ron desantis, who is it? is there anyone else in the republican field showing any signs of life that they could threaten trump? >> i think every one of the other candidates looks at these numbers and says, it's me. it can be me. they see desantis flagging.

they probably tell themselves that, while this is why trump's lead is growing, it's not that people love trump move, it's that they like desantis less and given that they like him less, why shouldn't it be me? in that sense, all of this helps trump. i think it tends to keep more people in this race and, you know, a crowded field is good for donald trump. the one person i think we all should keep an eye on is senator tim scott, who a lot of republicans speak of highly, who seems, not in these recent polls, he's not doing all that well. among the republican chattering class, he seems to be perhaps with a small arrow pointing upwards in terms of candidacy. we'll have to see if he hangs in

there. while maybe not the trump sentiment ends up coalescing around tim scott. i don't see anyone else making a move. >> matt, if you're thinking about whether these indictments hurt donald trump in the long run -- we're just talking about the primary. most people think they're not a benefit in the general election. if you look at that "new york times" poll 71% of republican voters say they should stand behind donald trump through the investigations. 71% say trump has not committed serious crimes. >> think about then when you think about the mar-a-lago documents and perhaps leading a coup against the u.s. government. 75% of voters believe trump was exercising his right to contest the 2020 election. that's not the kind of depth of support that it seems to me is going to change if another

indictment is added to the soup here. >> i completely agree. there's zero reason to believe any new information aside from donald trump suffering a heart attack or something that any legal problems are goes to pose any challenge for donald trump when it comes to the republican primary. it could make them like him more because you noted many trump supporters simply don't believe it. this goes back to i could shoot somebody on 5th avenue and wouldn't lose voters. others make excuses, it's just the deep state or everybody does it. he essentially is immune from the introduction of new information. i also have to add this. aside from that, which i don't know how you overcome that, look, "the new york times" yesterday had this analysis of the republican electorate and aside from being immune to new information about trump, you

know, it breaks down into three groups. you have the maga supporters who are with trump no matter what. that's a third. then you have a third who kind of are in between. they may vote for trump, but they might be open to someone like ron desantis. then you have another third -- it's a little less -- who are maybe never trumpers. so someone like ron desantis, the obvious move for him would have been to try to consolidate the never trumpers and those people in the middle and peel off some trump maga supporters and consolidate the never trumpers. the problem is if you look at this "new york times" piece, it's virtually impossible to do that because these two groups that desantis could potentially have a chance to win over vehemently disagree on almost every issue. so no matter how you look at it,

it's impossible to see this as anything but donald trump being, you know, by far the very, very clear favorite. >> the numbers are not good for ron desantis and remain strong for donald trump, even on the eve of a likely indictment. matt lewis, thank you. i will not give away the orioles school. his new book is called "filthy rich politicians." coming up, we'll speak live with the former president of ukraine with an update on his country's fight against russia's invasion. invasion [sfx: video game sound] new emergen-c crystals. throw it back. he snores like an angry rhino. you've never heard an angry rhino. new emergen-c crystals.

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bidenomics. we see the white house and the biden campaign leaning into this idea of joe biden bringing the economy back to life. inflation was the bogeyman for republicans and all of us paying higher prices, but even that has ticked down. will this be a centerpiece of the biden re-election campaign? >> i think it already is. the first use of the term bidenomics i could find was in "the wall street journal" before the 2020 election and it was a dismissive putdown of biden's economic plans as he had announced them. but now, look at the economic numbers. they've all turned in a really favorable direction for president biden. inflation is down. it's down to 3% in june.

incomes are rising faster than prices and have been for the last four months. unemployment is still at a 50-year low at 3.6%. the stock market is doing well. the fed no longer predicts that we're going to have a recession. we have robust growth, 2.4% in the last report. this is all good news for him and instead of -- you know, republicans hoped that bidenomics would be something they could attack and he's leaning into it and attempting to turn what could have been a weakness into a strength and saying this is working for you. the inflation reduction act is working for you. my theory of building from the middle out instead of the top down is working for you.

he got an unlikely assist the other day, of course, from congresswoman marjorie taylor greene who compared to what he's doing to the new deal and the great society, which the biden campaign quickly turned into an ad. joe biden is very happy to be compared to roosevelt and johnson in terms of his domestic policies. if that's the way people think about it, he likes his chances. >> the white house posted those comments from congresswoman taylor greene, the president saying, i approve this message. something that got put aside is that the chairman of the fed said we're taking the recession

off the board for next year. the gdp is at 2.4%. yet, as recently as yesterday, his approval rating on the economy is still very low, down in the 30s. >> economists have been wrong about where the economy is going. the biden people are not shy in pointing that out. eugene ticked through all the good economic numbers. they're leaning in hard on the economy. he was in maine talking about that. they put in a western swing to talk about the economy and talking about the inflation reduction act. they understand in a likely rematch with donald trump they feel like trump is a flawed candidate. they like their chances. they acknowledge one area where trump has an advantage is talking about the economy. trump inflated how good the economy was during his

presidency precovid. biden's team is now saying we need to talk about the economy too. an incumbent is judged on the economy and now is the time to talk about it. >> when they run out those numbers, it should be a good day for the president. coming up, a conversation with artificial intelligence with a top technology executive. we'll talk about the impact the emerging field could have on the econom and culture. plus, the city of san francisco takes action against elon musk. we'll tell you about that when "morning joe" comes back. t when "morning joe" comes back just by switching. ooooh, let me put a reminder on my phone. on the top of the pile! oh. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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the company formerly known as twitter has taken down the giant "x" sign in san francisco. the department of building

inspection received dozens of complaints about the sign concerning its brightness. some residents said the flashing lights not just annoying, but made it difficult to sleep because it's flashing. representatives for "x" said the sign was put up temporarily and the removal was voluntarily. turning to the debate over artificial intelligence and the new podcast entitled "temporarily optimistic" asks can a.i. be used for good or can it harm up. >> we're all hearing stories about how this technology will make our lives easier. >> there are places where it could come in super hype like brain surgery. >> it can more effectively identify cancer.

>> but can a.i. be used in a way that keeps our society intact? >> this podcaster has led the platform team at twitter, worked at top tech executive for the dnc and serves as the cto of emerson collective. let's dive in to some of the questions you ask. a.i., we've been hearing about it for years, but it seems to have broken through this year with some of the red flags that have gone up from people saying watch out for a.i. it's not good. it has hugely beneficial uses. where are you on the balance of the good versus the evil, if you will, of a.i.? >> good morning. thanks for having me. look, there's two camps right now. there's a group of people who want to go full steam ahead and use a.i. everywhere for everything. there's another group of people who want to take a really big

pause. i think we can have both. we can have the best science fiction world where a.i. is making our life better, while mitigating the harms and risks like discrimination and others that might show up. we can do both. we just need to be better educated to understand the nuances so we can help guide it. >> it seems like there's a scramble to put the brakes on, or at least stop and take a look at the potential damage and harm it can do. washington, congress, has taken this up. are there legislative fixes that can reign artificial intelligence in or is the genie out of the bottle? >> congress was designed to operate slowly and deliberately. we can't allow them alone to make the decision. there's only one member of

congress that has a degree in artificial intelligence. we can't rely on that body to make all the decisions, especially in a world where this technology feels like every day is moving as fast as a year. what senator warren and graham proposed is not a bad idea, to create a committee to look at this. we need a check and balance system. i believe that proposal specifically can help create that check and balance and have someone on the side of every day americans to make sure their interests are taken into account as well. >> this seems like it's got bipartisan support. there's some momentum here to put some sort of safeguards in front of a.i. we seem to be growing more alert of the dangers it imposes.

give us a look at the overlooked benefits to a.i. what are some things that could be done that congress is allowing to happen? >> a.i. is used in every part of our lives today already. we're only now just noticing it because of chatgpt and others. your siri uses a.i. when you go into google, that uses a.i. there are medical breakthroughs that use a.i. doctors can scan for cancer tumors way better because of a.i. recognition. our health care, all the aspects are being touched by a.i. we want to make sure we maximize that. i've spoken to people like sal khan who are trying to create personal a.i. tutors so every kid in america could have the best teacher for themselves. we want to live in that world. i want my kid to have the best possible education, the best

possible health care. i want a world where a.i. could help the climate crisis. we need to mitigate the risks and make sure that all races are treated equally by a.i., that the values are societal values and not just the values of the people who created the system, either on purpose or accidentally. i want to live in both these worlds and get these amazing benefits i've mentioned, but mitigate the downside. >> the podcast is called technically optimistic. great to have you here. >> thank you. coming up, one of our next guest has new reporting on former president trump's attempt to upend the investigation into georgia's election interference. that's whenmorning joe" comes right back. comes right back

♪♪ ♪♪ first here on "morning joe," the annual 50 over 50 u.s. list. this is the third year we're highlighting a phenomenal group of women who have rejected the conventional wisdom that their best years are behind them. these women in their 50s, 60s, 70s and beyond have achieved success later in life, often overcoming major obstacles. when we first started this partnership, the list was so successful we went global in the first year. this year from actress jamie lee

curtis to patti labelle to astronaut peggy whitson and many more, this year's list may be our most impressive yet. take a look. >> when you were younger, did you ever imagine your career over the age of 50? >> when i was younger, people were retiring at 50. i didn't imagine that my career would be what it is now. as i got closer to 50, my goals and objectives changed and i feel that once we get to a certain point in life there's wisdom. >> what's your advice for your younger self? >> to go for it. i mean, to be more open to the idea that you are more than just the comfortable sum of the parts that you are at that time. shake it up a little bit. >> become the first impactful

master. >> right. >> if you only do what you know you can succeed at, then you're never going to find out what you really can do. i wanted to be an astronaut, but i never knew i could be, you know, commander. i never knew that i could be the chief astronaut at nasa and all those things were a part of me doing and taking those opportunities that i wasn't sure i should succeed at. as much as i wanted to be an astronaut before i was 30, i was a much better astronaut getting in later, having more life experience. >> you've talked about the long runway and how women do extraordinary things in their 60s and 70s. look at where you are right now at 65. >> i have the most creative life

in the last year than i've had my entire life. what i was going to say about the long runway, i was going to retire at 40. there have been many, many, many points where i said, i don't think i'll ever make a movie again because i watched my parents. i watched them no longer get to do the work that they wanted. i watched them just be famous people who used to work. it killed them. it's heart breaking. so i always felt like i better get out before they no longer ask me to come. then what's been a miracle is that every time i think i'm going to do that, i get a job that then transforms the next five years. that's what's happened. the best thing is for particularly women to see people like me. they go, okay. it's okay. >> is being over the age of 50

an advantage or disadvantage in your line of work? >> it's an advantage. >> why? >> i've seen it all. i've done it all. i can let younger girls like beyonce and mariah carey ask me questions and i can give them all the info because i've been there, done that. i can give them quality answers. i love being 79. >> you love it? >> i love it. >> because of the advice you can give to others? >> no, because i'm still standing. >> are you optimistic about the ability to create real change here? >> i'm very optimistic because, if a country girl from alabama can make forbes 50 over 50, the sky's the limit. >> women in their 30s and 20s who feel like they have to rush to accomplish everything that they want to accomplish before the age of 50, or even before the age of 30, what would you

tell them? >> stop rushing. you're only 30. ♪♪ ♪♪ i'm here to of forbes women maggie mcgrath and huma abedin. this year's group of women, they come from dozens of industries including biotech, aerospace, arts, entertainment. what did it take to get onto the list? >> you called it our most impressive class of women yet. i think that is an accurate assessment. their sphere of influence touches everything from the deep sea to outer space. what it took to compile this year's list was a five-month

process. we had thousands of nominees. we sent the semifinals to 12 expert judges. after their gave us back their list, the forbes and know your value team had debate, did more research. that is the result you see today. we have more founders on this year's list than ever before. patti labelle is 79 years old and everyone knows her voice. but 15 years ago at 64 she founded patti's good life, a comfort food company. today it is a best seller at walmart. i tried the sweet potato pie. it is very, very good. we have eileen lee, the founder of cowboy ventures. a lot of these founders are giving back and increasing the flywheel of female entrepreneurs. >> jane founded a nonprofit for

entrepreneurs in l.a. she's a founding her of all raise which is dedicated to increasing the number of female power players in the united states. >> who jump out to you in policy? >> gina ramando. she's really done something it's hard to do in washington these days. she's respected on both sides of the aisle and she's focused on bringing jobs to this country. tracy hall for those bookworms among us, at 51 she was appointed as the first african-american leader of the american library association. she has been speaking up for the right to read. there's too many book bans, in my opinion, around this country. i love her man tra, which is that free people should be able

to read freely. the last person is fani willis. at 52 she is the fulton county district attorney leading the investigation into donald trump's alleged conduct in georgia in the last election. >> when we started this three years ago, we had such a massive influx of nominees, over 10,000, i believe. we broke up the list into four categories, impact, lifestyle, entrepreneurs and money. you told us that the impact list was especially competitive this year. i'm curious to hear more about catherine coleman flowers, the face of this year's impact list. >> she turns 65 a little later this month. she has dedicated her over 50 career to researching and exposing what she calls

america's dirty secret, which is in the richest country in the world there are families living without proper sanitation and sewage running in their back yard. she was a teacher and she moved back to her hometown in alabama to do research in economic development. that's when she discovered just how bad the sewage issue was. her work caught the attention of the justice department, which in may released findings of an investigation finding alabama county officials have neglected their constituents. >> what do you think the take-away is for viewers at home, especially young women just starting out their careers and those who are mid-career and beyond? >> i harken back to the conversation we had a year ago when i asked you that question. that pivoting professionally at

any age is not just a possibility, but we should make it a priority to consider. there's a whole list of 50 over 50 women showing us the way. >> you have a long runway, much longer than you could have ever imagined. thank you. you'll be hearing much more about the women who made our 50 over 50 u.s. list in the weeks to come in addition to our luncheon honoring these successful women in new york city this fall. it all leads up to our 30/50 summit in abu dhabi next year in march. in abu dhabi next year in march.

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when you look at the campaign filings yesterday, most of the money that middle class americans have given to him he spent on his own legal fees. this guy is a billionaire. how about maybe he just sells trump tower and pays for his legal fees that way, or maybe sell the plane or one of the golf courses? >> republican presidential candidate chris christie weighing in on campaign filings that show donald trump is burning through millions in campaign cash just to pay his legal fees. trump's legal troubles could get worse today perhaps, at least this week with an indictment tied to election interference in the january 6th attacks now looming in washington. plus, ukraine seems to be making good on its promise to bring the war back into russian territory. the drone strike hit a building

in moscow for the second straight day. we'll have an update on the conflict. and a story that jonathan lemire had been lobbying to get into all morning long, a zoo in eastern china trying to tamp down accusations that is not a sun bear, but rather a guy in a bear costume at their zoo. welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it's 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. the grand jury hearing testimony in special counsel jack smith's investigation into former president trump's alleged effort to overturn the legitimate results of the 2020 election is expected to be back in session today. that comes amid new developments in the mar-a-lago documents case and the investigation into the former president's alleged election interference in

georgia. garrett haake has details. >> reporter: this morning, former president trump's codefendant in the classified documents case, mar-a-lago employee carlos de oliveira is out on bond, entering no plea in his court appearance in miami monday. prosecutors say trump asked de oliveira to delete security footage at the estate to obstruct the investigation. mr. trump warning on social media that an indictment could come, quote, any day now, attacking election interference and prosecutorial misconduct. >> these are ridiculous indictments. >> reporter: in washington, the grand jury hearing evidence in the case is scheduled to meet today. meanwhile in georgia, fulton county district attorney fani willis, investigating mr. trump for election interference there, is set to present her case to a grand jury. >> we've been working for 2 1/2 years. we're ready to go.

>> reporter: it comes as a georgia judge rejected a trump bid to shut down the d.a.'s investigation while blasting the former president's lawyers for unnecessary and unfounded legale filings ahead of a potential indictment. a new poll shows the former president still dominating the 2024 gop field ahead of his closest rival florida governor ron desantis by 37 points with the rest of the field far behind. according to the poll, even those who don't support mr. trump want to defend him with 70% of republican primary voters saying the party must stand behind him. still desantis on fox news suggesting if the former president has amassed too much baggage to beat president biden. >> let's bring in ken dilanian

we've been on indictment watch for a couple of weeks. we know the grand jury meets tuesdays and thursdays. what do we expect to hear? >> i would say indictment watch has intensified here at the justice department and the federal courthouse. it's been two weeks since donald trump announced he had gotten a target letter in this election suppression case, what we used to call the january 6th case. we later learned the charges laid out on the target letter include conspiracy to defraud the united states, conspiracy to obstruct that official proceeding on january 6th of congress and potential violation of people's civil rights and the right to vote. now we wait. i think one of the big questions, if there is an indictment handed down today by this grand jury or the next time it meets thursday of this week,

is whether there will be codefendants or whether it's trump alone. that could have huge implications for how quickly the trial moves forward and a host of other things. what's curious about the reporting so far is that we've not been able to confirm that any other person has gotten a target letter in this election fraud effort even though we know from the reporting and from the january 6th committee that a lot of other people were involved from rudy giuliani to lawyers like jeffrey clark and john eastman. all their representatives have said they have not gotten target letters. so now we wait to see. the grand jury is in. how this would transpire if an indictment is handed up is not clear. it could be unsealed or sealed. all these things are up in the

air. we'll bring it to you as soon as we get it. >> that's one federal case, one special counsel investigation into the attempted overturning of the 2020 election results. let's move to the other one, which is the mar-a-lago documents case. we got that new superseding indictment that introduced a new character into the story, mr. de oliveira, who's the property manager at mar-a-lago. also this employee number four, who is the i.t. guy for mar-a-lago who allegedly was asked to delete the hard drives of these security cameras. what did we learn from yesterday's hearing with mr. de oliveira and what's the significance of the i.t. guy? >> we didn't learn much from the hearing. de oliveira was unable to get local counsel, so he didn't make a plea to the charges. the i.t. guy is fascinating.

again, this is informed speculation. why was there a superseding indictment so soon after the main indictment? that suggests that the prosecutors obtained evidence that they weren't able to present in the first indictment. what some people are reporting and theorizing is that tavares was liable to be charged and then came in and cooperated. it's supposition based on the fact that the superseding indictment contains crucial evidence from tavares. he quotes de oliveira as saying "the boss wants the forge deleted." this was surveillance footage. the new superseding indictment presents an incredible, extraordinary charge against not only de oliveira and walt nauta,

but former president trump, which is a conspiracy to destroy evidence in a federal criminal investigation. not even richard nixon was accused of that. remember, richard nixon turned over the oval office tapes because he concluded that to destroy them would make him look incredibly guilty. the prosecutors are saying donald trump ordered surveillance tapes destroyed. reading the superseding indictment, it's a bit thin on the evidence connecting the scheme to mr. trump. they don't have a direct conversation, at least as laid out in the indictment with mr. trump, which is why they would love to flip de oliveira, but so far he's standing firm. he's got a lawyer paid for by the trump organization, as does walt nauta. this superseding indictment as a new wrinkle to this classified documents case. we should start calling it the obstruction of justice and destruction of evidence case. >> ken, thanks so much.

let's move from the federal cases to one in the state of georgia. tamara, you're covering that closely. yesterday a judge in fulton county told trump's legal team you don't even have standing to ask this case to get thrown out. you haven't even been charged, for one thing. how quickly are things moving with d.a. fani willis? >> things are moving very quickly here in georgia. yesterday the first witness who was subpoenaed to appear before one of the grand juries seated now in atlanta surfaced publicly, george cheatie, an independent journalist confirms he was asked to appear at any point between august 7th and the end of the month. we're not necessarily expecting any indictments this week, but they could potentially come as soon as next week. as for that order you mentioned yesterday, judge robert mcbernie

delivered quite a rebuke to the trump team. they were hoping to suppress the final recommendations of an investigative grand jury that was helping the d.a. prevent any evidence they uncovered from being used. they were also seeking the judge to be sidelined as well. the judge said you don't have any standing at this point. there are no indictments. there will be legal remedies available to you should you be charged in the future, but right now that is not the case. >> we know the courthouse is getting ready. barricades went up in recent days. the d.a. set up this timeline that this would probably come in mid august. but this one, unlike the last case we discussed, there is a sense this one could expand beyond trump. tell us more about some of the others who could be potential

targets, who else in trump's orbit might face charges. >> from february 2021 when d.a. willis announced she was looking into this, she mentioned he was looking at racketeering, which is a conspiracy that would involve many different actors working in concert to protect the same goal or enterprise or institution. with that in mind, we know at least about 18 people who were sent target letters last summer alerting them that they could see charges as a result, rudy giuliani, all 16 republicans who served as alternate trump electors here in georgia, although we know at least half of them have taken immunity deals. there also could be others. former white house chief of staff mark meadows came to georgia after quite a fight to testify, although he really took the fifth. there are many others who appeared at a hearing before

state legislators who might have been involved in pressuring fulton county poll worker ruby freeman. i'll be interested to see how many people ultimately get pulled into this. >> could come this month. we've had august circled on the calendar for this case in georgia and we will see some action pretty soon. let's bring in the ranking member of the house intelligence committee, jim himes of connecticut. it's worth pausing to remember because we are so immersed in everything donald trump for the last eight years, how extraordinary this is. we're talking about a former president, a guy that wants to be president again with likely two federal cases against him, one in georgia and then a defamation suit in new york as well. it's an extraordinary moment to have this man running for president at this time. >> it is an extraordinary moment. you can sort of see the

trajectory here. what a bizarre trajectory. donald trump can be distinguished for one thing in the judiciary, it's just getting obliterated in court. 60 lost cases claiming election fraud, reversal after reversal after reversal. the idea that president trump is going to get indicted and he's going to skate free of all of these things, including things where we saw the evidence, the photos of the classified documents at mar-a-lago, we heard him ask to find 11,000 votes in georgia, the idea that he skates free is very very low probability. is that going to change the mind of a single one of his loyal voters? i don't think so. even if there are convictions, his core base of support still makes him the republican nominee for president of the united states. >> we've been talking about that number from the "new york times" poll which is 71% of republicans say we have to stand with donald trump through these

investigations. and another 71% say he actually didn't do anything wrong in these cases that we talk about every day. >> that's the peril for our democracy, actually. no matter how many indictments come down, no matter if he's tried and found guilty, a lot of people are going to say it's all politics. in terms of the republican party, what goes through your mind when you see the reality of this and they see the reality of it, and yet so few in the house or in the senate will stand up and say, hey, it's just too much? >> it's self-preservation. you know, you had two case studies in what happens when republicans stand up and say this is bananas, this is so inconsistent with who we are. that is adam kinzinger and liz cheney. neither of them are in the united states congress anymore. what you see amongst my republican colleagues is

behavior somewhere on the crazy side claiming that burisma is real, that none of this happened, denying the facts that are there for all to see, to on the other end of the spectrum of just not wanting to talk about it, trying to say, that's bad, but look at what bill clinton did, you know the what aboutist defense. the core is the realization that donald trump to this day, despite the many indictments, he can end your career in a heartbeat. most of my republican colleagues don't want their careers ended. >> i want to get your take on two different things that donald trump called for your republican colleagues to do at his rally over the weekend in pennsylvania. one was to stop sending funding to ukraine unless ukraine investigated the bidens, which mind you, is exactly what it did in 2019 that got himself impeached the first time. the second was to forge forward with an impeachment inquiry of

president biden. this coming days after speaker mccarthy seemed to try to tap the brakes on that. >> the good news is my republican colleagues don't necessarily listen to his advice. on top of a biden impeachment, if impeachable crimes are surfaced, fine. they have found no evidence whatsoever that there are impeachable crimes. take it from nancy mays of south carolina who just a couple of days ago said we have got to stop this or we're going to lose the majority. it's utter nonsense. let's just stop helping the ukrainians so the russians can take over the country. it's dangerous nonsense. if they take that advice, they go the route donald trump has taken since 2016 which is losing the senate, losing the house, losing the presidency.

>> we've been saying on this show throughout this hunter biden episode that if hunter biden broke the law, he should be prosecuted. it's clear he broke with law with respect to taxes, possibly with the ownership of a handgun. he should be held accountable for that. what congress is theoretically looking into is some tie to joe biden. they've found no evidence of that. they've been working on this for years. it is an important distinction. if there was a law broken, that's for the justice system to handle. the question is, does joe biden have any relationship to that? the answer so far is no. >> donald trump was impeached twice for things that the

american people could watch on tv. first was holding up ukraine aid in exchange for dirt on the bidens. there was no question about the fact there is. the second time he was impeached was because he sent a mob of people to attack the capitol. no question about the facts. whether or not that was criminal, special counsel smith will tell us. no question about the facts. it's just this internal primal urge to visit retribution on the democrats. the problem is they can't find a fact. i said something that shouldn't be controversial, which is, if you committed a crime, you should be held accountable. have they pointed to anything to suggest that joe biden engaged in corrupt behavior? no. on the on treasury, hunter biden's business partner said, yeah, he was on some phone calls talking about the weather,

exchanging pleasanpleasantries. it is sure and absolutely not a crime. they're just in this box of their own making. >> we played james comer on with sean hannity. sean hannity pleading with james comer, show us something. well, we sure hope we get something. there's a lot of smoke, but no fire yet, his words. moscow was hit by a drone attack this morning, the second in as many days. three drones were launched toward moscow. two were shot down. the "new york times" reports the strategy behind those strikes is to show a will to hamper the kremlin's military logistics and to remind ordinary russians of the cost of war. do you feel like the united states, the congress, the country has the will to stand with ukraine for however long this takes? and it does look like it's going to be a long haul here?

>> that's a good question. i would have answered that differently three weeks ago. i would have told you the republicans have a fringy group that doesn't want to support ukraine. i was wrong. when we were voting on amendments to the national defense authorization act, half the republicans said let's either cut or stop aid to ukraine. this is the party of eisenhower, of ronald reagan, people who stood up to authoritarianism and communism. i would take a slightly different view of the drone attacks in russia. this thing either ends slowly or it ends quickly, because the russian people decide they've had enough. think about what prigozhin did a couple of weeks ago. that may be how this thing ends. i think the ukrainians are trying to say you're not safe in moscow, you're not safe in crimea and trying to generate that internal dissent that could

end this war quickly. >> ranking member of the house intelligence committee democratic congressman jim himes of connecticut, thanks for being here. joining us now from kyiv is the former president of ukraine petro poroshenko. could you give us your assessment of the drone attacks in moscow? >> this is a legitimate target for ukrainian armed forces. this is the implementation of our right for self-defense. i cannot exclude that, but this is just testing fight for the preparation for the new attacks on the critical russian objects. you are absolutely right.

nobody in crimea or russia can feel safe until the -- killing ukraine civilians during this war. only ten minutes ago we finished the air alert here in kyiv, where i am standing. we are delivering day after tomorrow to the brigade which participated in the counteroffensive. with that situation, understand that only this night we lost four civilian in kherson and significant amount, 18, were wounded.

i think this is not easy to imagine in what situation ukraine faces for more than 500 days. from the first moment, we create the territorial defense. [indiscernible] >> mr. president, as you pointed out, 500 days of war, a particularly brutal war, seemingly becoming more brutal each and every day as your ukrainian army tries to cut the supply lines of russia, going through minefields to do it, taking heavy casualties. the question is, do you have enough armaments? are you getting enough ammunition to sustain this

assault? >> the supreme commander in chief of armed forces, i can tell you weapons is never enough. we have enough weapons for defending our land, and we definitely have not enough weapons for our counteroffensive. our counteroffensive can be more effective. for that we need the weapons and ammunition without any limits on the range, on the type. another thing, there is not exist any nato standards which can provide air support. definitely this lack of air

defense did not stop our troops, but it definitely less bloody. >> i want to ask you about a peace summit being proposed by saudi arabia, which raised a lot of headlines in recent days. members of the ukrainian government are going to be represented, a number of other countries as well. russia will not. give us your sense of what you hope to accomplish there. >> ukraine is definitely interested in any peace initiative. we welcome that. but no peace agreement is enforceable if it is not about

ukrainian sovereign integrity and holding russia responsible for the military crimes they do in ukraine. they give us some hope for widening the range of the country which it is important that -- [indiscernible] we ruin the russian narrative that the global south is not for ukraine.

we're closer to our victory of democracy and free and democratic world. >> china, one of the few countries with some leverage to exercise over vladimir putin. former president of ukraine petro poroshenko, thank you for being here. >> it's a pleasure. thank you for some darety. paul reubens died yesterday after a long and private battle with cancer. we'll look back at his life next. we'll look back at his life next

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comedian and actor paul reubens best known for his character peewee herman died yesterday after a battle with cancer. >> reporter: with his sassy one-liners, signature gray suit and red bow tie and infectious

laugh, actor paul reubens turned his character peewee herman to a pop culture icon. he was adored by young and old alike for his kind heart and playful expressions. born in upstate new york, reubens honed his acting skills as a member of the improv group the groundlings. >> i focused on character work and developing and creating characters. he came out of an improv many years ago at the groundlings. >> reporter: a peewee hbo special and guest appearances on late night with david letterman led to his first big break, the hit 1985 film "peewee's big adventure." it was followed by his saturday morning tv show "peewee's playhouse" which ran for five seasons and won 15 emmys. >> i'm proud of that show. we took it very seriously that we were affecting young minds.

i'm excited that a whole new generation of kids may find it now. >> reporter: off screen, reubens weathered scandals including a 1991 arrest for indecent exposure at a movie theater, making light of it at the vmas. >> heard any good jokes lately? >> reporter: his career bounced back with two sequel films including "peewee's big holiday," reaching a new generation of fans. >> think fast! >> reporter: reubens also proved his acting chops with guest roles on shows like "the blacklist" and 2001's "blow." >> i'm not really peewee herman. for a long time people didn't know that. i don't think people thought of me as an actor because i tried

to make everybody think peewee herman was a real person. >> reporter: conan o'brien tweeted his surreal comedy and kindness were a gift to us all. mark hamill posted, can't thank you enough for the lifetime of laughter. and tim burton wrote, he was a great artist, i'll miss him. >> he was 70 years old. some good news out of buffalo bills training camp in upstate new york where damar hamlin put on his pads yesterday and participated in a full-contact practice for the first time since his heart stopped on the field back in january on that monday night game. hamlin has been a full participate in workouts since early last month, says the full padded practice clears a big hurdle in his return to the field. great to see him back out there. and now after three hours

and 35 minutes of "morning joe," you finally get your wish. a zoo in eastern china is addressing speculation about whether one of its bears is real. a video of the bear in question was posted on social media this week. you can see what's said to be a sun bear standing on its hind legs before sitting down. the video quickly gained attention. the zoo confirmed the animal is an actual bear. speculation is that is a guy in a bear suit. >> that's clearly a guy in a bear suit. look at him. he's standing up there. he's got weird folds in his back. >> is he telling jokes? >> this is clearly a man in a bear suit. this tweet breaks it down for us. >> he's wearing a pair of todd's

loafers. couldn't be a bear. >> a deep dive into the wardrobe here. >> maybe he's lost some weight. i'm going to take the bear side. the zoo says effectively it's so hot out we would never put a person in a bear suit all day. that would be cruel. boy oh boy, that's a guy in a bear suit. >> thank you. >> looks like the bear is talking. >> there's tourists there and he's speaking to them. >> is he telling jokes or something? also, videos like that bear in a zoo are an example of the fun side of social media, but of course there's a darker side. our next guest wrote a book on the topic titled "outrage machine, how tech amplifies

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or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. nothing on my skin means everything! ♪ nothing is everything ♪ ask your dermatologist about skyrizi. learn how abbvie could help you save. i saw conflicts between profit and safety. facebook consistently resolved these in favor of profits. in some cases, this dangerous online talk has led to actual violence that harms and even kills people. this is not simply a matter of certain social media users being angry or unstable or about one side being radicalized against the other. it is about facebook choosing to grow at all costs, becoming an

almost trillion dollar company by buying its profits with our safety. >> that is facebook whistleblower testifying before a senate panel in 2021 urging them to solve the crisis created by her former employer's products. joining us is the author of the new book titled "outrage machine, how tech amplifies disconsent and disrupts democracy." let's talk about moral outrage on social media and the reward system by presenting outrage. >> it turns out that moral outrage is something that's inherently viral on social media. it gets a boost of about 17% per moral and emotional word that you use on these platforms.

when we express these comments of outrage in our posts, it actually trains us so as a person posting online, we wouldn't expect this, but when our posts get a tremendous amount of traction, we actually begin to make more of them in the future. so these signals of outrage end up cascading. >> what's a good example of what you're showing, because you say it helps to break the democracy. how does that work exactly? >> on my way to the studio this morning, for instance, we got stuck in traffic, which is fine. happens in new york. but if i had tweeted, i'm stuck in traffic, that wouldn't have gotten a tremendous amount of traction. but if i had said i am so annoyed, i am disgusted by the fact that eric adams, mayor of

new york, he hasn't taken care of this traffic problem, that would have gotten a tremendous amount of traction online. there's a difference in the type of language that we use online. it tends to be the stuff that is outrageous gets the most viral attention. >> so is it obvious or am i wrong in thinking that twitter or x, whatever you want to call it, or threads, whatever that is, attracts naturally people who are bitter, angry, mean spirited, lonely, whatever, all negative adjectives? it seems the preponderance of stuff on twitter is largely vicious other than news alerts. >> yeah. if we're looking at the average twitter user -- >> how many twitter users are there in the country? >> i'm not sure what the current

number is because there have been so many dramatic changes to the platform, but overall there's 5 billion social media users globally right now. it's more than half the population of the earth that's on social media. >> you've diagnosed the problem, an outrage machine that doesn't reflect what society is about. how can we change it? what are steps we could take to try to improve our relationship with social media? >> fortunately, there's three buckets of things we can do at every level, as individuals, the platform level and at the government level. as individuals, it's very important for us to recognize that these tools have certain weights and measures in them that are trying to keep us there. social media literacy is very important for recognizing how the algorithms work. most importantly, there's a handful of specific apps and healthy frictions you can put in place that will keep you from dropping into these moments of

outrage on these platforms. there's a few fantastic apps that will block your usage or just pause you. there's one app that i love called one sec that forces you to take a deep breath before you enter these apps. it will just force your brain out of that automated response and force you to take a second and be like why am i hear, why am i entering this app in the first place? that makes a big difference. >> a lot of the people who appear outraged are performing outrage, because they know it gets them clicks. it's a really interesting topic. "outrage machine, how tech amplifies discontent and disrupts democracy and what we can do about it," it is out now.

coming up next, the major league baseball trade deadline now just about eight hours away. what to watch for ahead of the 6:00 p.m. cutoff. baseball next on "morning joe." f baseball next on "morning joe. ♪ upbeat music ♪ ♪ [ tires screeching ] director: cut! jordana, easy on the gas. force of habit. i gotta wrap this commercial, i think i'm late on my payment. it's okay, the general gives you a break when you need it. yeah, we let you pick your own due date so you can pay your car insurance when it's best for you. well that's good to know,

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the 0-2. the 0-2. out to out to left center field. hayes racing after it. what a play by austin hayes! throw back toward first. it is late, but austin hayes with an incredible catch in left center field! >> orioles doing it night in and night out. austin hayes, a spectacular diving catch, to preserve baltimore's two-run lead over the blue jays in the bottom of the ninth. the os hung on to beat the jays

4-2. 1 1/2 game lead ahead of the rays atop the al east. in atlanta, los angeles dodgers superstar ohtani had his would be 40th home run of the season snatched away by braves center fielder michael harris. what a play, leaping at the wall to rob what would have been a three-run home run for ohtani. a trio of angels solo shots earlier in the game left l.a. with the win, league-leading braves took the loss there, 4-1 angels with the final. the new york mets continue to deal ahead of tonight's mlb trade deadline. mark cannia to the milwaukee brewers in exchange for a pitching prospect and a number of other mets could be on the move including the reigning al cy young award winner justin the verlander. the mets are trying to trade him before the 6:00 p.m. cutoff and, yes, the astros, his old team, interested in bringing the right-hander back to houston. here we go. up in the bronx, the new york yankees have some difficult

decisions to make before today's trade deadline. unclear if they'll make a they difference. they lost last night 5-1 to the now rays. now find themselves ten games out of first place, alone in the cellar of the al east. joining us, yankees beat recorder for mlb.com, brian hoch, author of the new book "62: aaron judge, the new york yankees and the pursuit of looking greatness." looking back to a simpler time last year when the yankees were good and aaron judge was chasing he's off the history. he's off the disabled list. we like that. he walked a few times last let's night. let's get it out of the way. >> okay. >> are the yankees done this >> i year? >> i think they're close. they're teetering on that. i think anything brian cashman is going to do here today needs to be done with 2024 in mind. i think you don't want to completely raise the white flag. you're 3 1/2 games out of a playoff spot. major league baseball expanded the playoff so it is not inconceivable they make a run here, but i wouldn't bet money

on it for them. anything they do, they need to look toward next year as well. >> let's look back to last year. let's do that with your book. >> feels like a long time ago, but -- >> a lifetime ago had one of the greatest single offensive seasons in major league baseball history, aaron judge did, with the 62 home runs, setting the american league record. how do you tell the story of aaron judge and that just extraordinary season? >> what i love about it is the numerical symmetry, now aaron judge at 62, all of whom played in the same city, played for the same team, they even played the same position right field. so, judge really fits in this kind of lineage here of new york baseball history in a way that i feel like he is the worthy successor to roger marist to hold this record. he's appreciative of his place in history here and i think that, you know, given that it is not the major league home run record, barry bonds holds that

at 72, i put this in a different piece here because it is so new york centric this record and why it was so important to people, you know, roger marist jr. who did the foreword for this book said he considers judge the true home run champion. that's up to the individual to debate, but we get into all that in the book. it was a remarkable season. wire to wire, the best offensive season i've ever seen. >> as a yankee fan with a teenage son who loves the yankees, it was fun to tune in every night and see what he was going to do. he brought that joy to the game and the city. it hurt this year, but now he's back, john. >> in some ways this year proves how valuable he is. he missed so much time and the yankees have really scuffled without him. i want to ask you, how close was he to leaving? at the end season, he's a california guy, the giants put together a massive offer for it him. it came down to the wire. he ended up back in new york. there was a sense, the yankees couldn't let him leave but it seems like he almost did. >> there was a strong pull for

him to be at home. his parents, you saw them there in the video, highlights you're watching there, they kind of wanted him to come home and, you know, he lives in northern california, i think that when it came down to it, he had to go entertain free agency, he went on the tour with the san francisco giants who offered him nine years, $360 million. the padres came out of nowhere and offered him a 14-year contract. so when they're offering you that, you got to get on the plane and fly out to san diego and check out what they're they saying. they went through that, did the tours, looked at homes and he and his wife sam at the end of it they looked at each other and said, you know, we're yankees, we belong in new york, there is unfinished business and i think the way the post season ended last year played a big part for he judge. he had this fantastic year, he was going to win the mvp and the yankees fell short in the post i season. i think he talks about it in the book about when you're standing in right field, you look around, you don't see banners for division championships. you see the 27 world series titles and he has yet to put one

up there and so i think that he wanted to come back, unfinished business in new york and to take care of that. >> some time to work on the unfinished business. but it is not my first choice to keep talking about the yankees. in this case, i'll make an aaron exception. aaron judge, as willie pointed out, was off the roster for a while and injured, he's back in now. in his absence it was striking how old and how quickly the yankees got in his absence watching that team. >> i agree with you, yeah. completely different team. he ran into that wall in los angeles on june 3rd. and it was almost like the entire offense cratered without it was him. it was like the guys around him just forgot how to hit. they were looking for somebody to lead them and there was nobody there to lead. and that's a big problem with the yankees. we talked about the trade deadline here, i don't think there is one player you can trade for who is going to put them over the top and you say, well, now, they're world series contenders. even if they add even if they added shohei ohtani, that doesn't get them to

where they need to be. anthony rizzo, john carlos stanton, even if they hit to the back of the baseball yards, this team is probably spinning their >> wheels. >> what team is verlander playing for at 6:00 tonight? >> i'm going to say the new york mets. i know that i know that it makes so much sense to put him on the astros and i know the dodgers are involved there too. i feel like for steve cohen to trade both max scherzer and to trade verlander, it is almost like you're raising the white flag on next year too and i think the mets do want to be competitive next season and i'm sure the yankees do as well. >> we'll see what happens. the new book "62: aaron judge, the new york yankees, the pursuit of greatness," bryan hoch, thank you. >> that does it for us this morning. ana ana cabrera picks up the coverage in 90 seconds. coverage in 90 seconds your car insurance...tual s so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. now you get out there, and you make us proud, huh? ♪

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right right now on "ana cabrera reports," the grand jury investigating donald trump is arriving at a d.c. courthouse. could we see a vote today on indicting the former president on election interference? the latest on that case and the other growing legal troubles swirling around trump. plus, the suspected gilgo beach serial killer expected before a judge in hours. the mountain of evidence now in police hands as they look to tie him to more killings. and later, a potential school shooting thwarted. the terrifying scene that unfolded outside a hebrew school in memphis as an armed suspect tried to get